Starting a Community Business with 8-Figure Founder Greg Isenberg from Startup Ideas Podcast

Sup nerds, welcome to the Jason Levin Podcast. I know it's been a while, it's been over 6 months. I have been traveling, I've been starting new businesses, everything has been crazy, but I have a very special guest for you. His name is Greg Eisenberg and he is an 8-figure entrepreneur. He is the founder of Late Checkout where he builds community-based businesses. The man is a myth, he is a legend in the Twittersphere, in the greater entrepreneurial community, and I'm very fortunate to call him a friend and my old boss. He is actually one of the first people that I ever cold DM'd on Twitter and started working with. Greg took a huge chance on me, literally hopped on the phone with me the next day. Greg has been a great friend and mentor to me ever since, and I'm really excited to share this episode with you. Get ready to learn how to build a community-based business from the ground up. We're talking pricing, finding an audience, how do you figure it out? Do you go in person, physical? We talk everything right here.

There's a human tendency to want to be like other people. I think they call it the mimetic desire. And when, and yeah, when I see people buying a certain car, hitting certain revenue numbers, starting a certain business, buying a certain business, creating a certain type of content, I'll take note of it sometimes. I'll be like, okay, maybe I do feel like I do want that car, or maybe, but I let it sit. I let it sit and I try to— in the past when I was younger, I would be like impulsive a little bit and be like, this person orders an Old Fashioned, I'm gonna order an Old Fashioned. And now I'll, I take a second and I say, you know what, maybe I'm not even in the mood to drink tonight. Maybe I just want a glass of water or maybe I want a beer or maybe I want a hot tea, even though that's weird to go and order a hot tea at a bar. And I think that's okay. So I think growing older, you become more okay with being weird.

I completely agree. I've become weirder, or being okay with being weird more and more as the, as the couple years have gone on. I think like, I don't know, I think it's one of my competitive advantages is just being willing to be weird or be seen as cringe or whatever by some people, because somebody's always going to call you cringe. But I want to talk about specifically community. Speaking of contrarians, speaking of belonging with people, people are— 2021, community was hot, and we're not hearing about it as much. But you're still as bullish ever as ever on community. I'm still as bullish as ever. Alex Hormozi just dropped a tweet today that he's investing in school. So why, our online communities? Like, why should people invest in that, in building them?

Okay, so a little backstory. I've been writing about— I've been writing and building internet communities for literally 20+ years. So there was a long period of time when I wrote about internet communities and people literally did not pay attention. In fact, in— by March, I have, I don't know, 360,000+ followers on Twitter. In March 2020, I had, I don't know, 10,000 followers on Twitter. And all those people that followed me were diehard internet community people. It's not like in 2020, I just decided to tweet more and I got all these followers. The only thing that changed was the market perception of internet communities. So all of a sudden, instead of a tweet getting 3 likes, all of a sudden I was getting 300 likes or 3,000 likes or even sometimes 30,000 likes. It was crazy. Now you enter 2020, 2022, 2023, and it, it's human nature to, to, to, to want a new shiny object. And of course community falls out of vogue. But to me, I like when community's out of vogue because to me it means there's more opportunity to, there's less competition basically. So I think right now, 2024 is an incredible opportunity to pick an underserved niche, build an internet community, and be weird. That going back to our earlier point, be weird with them, right? What's their weird? What's their version of weird? And allow them to express themselves in that way.

Yeah. As I've been building my community now, I've been so happy, like these calls. I, as a creator, I want my time for myself doing like art and writing and making videos and stuff. But as I've been doing the community now and people are joining and joining, these calls are actually like the highlight sometimes of my day where like they bring out some different sides of me and we share ideas, share memes, share like weird PR hacks in the news. Like people are just constantly in their messaging about that stuff. And it feels pretty cool. And it's one of the highlights and I thought it'd be like a time suck, but it's an energy, energy plus, honestly. That's, I think, who was it? George Mack talked about like kale, what is it? Treadmill friends versus couch friends.

Yeah.

I feel like I'm building a community of like treadmill friends and it's a really good feeling. How do you—

I'll also say, I think building an internet community is an incredible way to attract the people that you do want to hang out with.

Yeah.

So like we built an internet community called Community Empire on Skool. And I mean, you actually just spoke in it today. And a lot of my friends, like well-known entrepreneurs, ask me like, why the hell are you doing that? And like, you can look at it and okay, it's $99 a month to join, but we actually spend $99. You get a free Skool subscription, which is $99. So we spend $99 We basically don't make money on it. We actually lose money on it because we have to hire— we have a full-time community manager on it. We support it in a lot of ways. So it's like, why am I spending money to create an internet community, a private internet community of people who want to build businesses using the internet? And the answer is because those are the types of people that I potentially want to hire. Those are the types of people that I potentially want to buy their businesses. Those are the types of people that are like me, therefore get me going to your point, put me on a treadmill, friends. And I work remote and the downside of working remote is that it is, you get comfy in your room basically. And it forces me to have calls. It forces me to get to know people. It forces me out of my comfort zone. And I was talking about, talking with someone just today about, hey, we might end up buying their business. The last time I did a private community for like this, like we invested $50,000 into their business and became partners. So I think there's going to be a lot of B2B creator type people who are going to be building these private communities because it is going to make them put them on that treadmill.

Yeah, I was going to say as well, like building the newsletter as well has led me to meet every writer freelance writer that I've hired for projects has come because they found my newsletter and just DM'd me. And it's the same thing with building a community. We have a channel called a job board and one of the kids that used to be at Workweek. And so when I need help on maybe repurposing content, he's the first person I turn to or the content. And then somebody else needed memes made. So they posted that in the job board. It's like, how do you get to the point where a community is running? I don't want to say, how do you get to a point where a community is running itself? Maybe that's impossible. How do you get to that point?

It's not impossible. It's not impossible at all. So your job as a community leader, and you're like the community leader now, and you'll always be a community leader, even if this grows to $250,000 a month, you'll still be the, like the head of it, right? And you can pop in when you want. Um, but your goal is basically, if you think about a community, like a boat, let's say, and you're, when you have a little bit of product market fit, you're on like a lazy river. You're just like slowly marching and that's like where you're at now, but you still have to, you're relying a little bit on the lazy river and you're also like parts of it might just be really slow. It might be too lazy and you have to like come in and restart it and change directions. And a community on autopilot is when like the river is flowing, right? It's like you're on rapids, you're whitewater rafting, whitewater rafting. There's nothing really that you can, like, you're going and you get to that point when, when basically the amount of content that's being created, user-generated, become so large that you don't need to come in there and be like, I'm going to host an office hours, or I'm going to ask people a question and stuff like that. Generally, that happens in the 500+ member range. That's when it could, could get there. So my only advice to you or whoever's listening is like, first, take stock of where you are. Are you on a lake that isn't moving, or are you on a lazy river, or are you on a, on the rapids? And if you are on the lazy river, think about how, what are the steps I need to do to eventually get myself onto the rapids?

Interesting. Okay. Okay. That's fascinating. So something I've been thinking about a lot, I know you've been thinking about it as well, is Soho House for X, right? And I'm a member of Soho House. I'm there multiple times a week and I love it. Like, how do I build that for nerds? Online, right? Like that's, I raised the prices of Cyber Patterns Premium. I'm adding as much value as I can, but how do I build a luxury newsletter premium community? Right? That's where I'm thinking about right now is, and Community Empire, I was inspired by you because Community Empire is not cheap, like $99 a month. No, it's not cheap. How do you, how did you think about pricing for a community?

I, so I always start with the value. Like I start with, I remove any I don't want to just pick a price because it makes sense. So I start with the value and I start listing it out. So that's what I did with Community Empire. So I was like, okay, what do people get? If you're building a community or listening to this and you want to build a community, just list out all the things that you get. So for us, we actually send a monthly email with here's 2 or 3 or 4 niches that we think are really interesting based on like us going through Reddit and Discord and like mining data. And then we send a couple startup ideas along with that email. So you get this research email, you get the free, you get the school subscription, which is $99. So if you want to create a community, that itself pays for it. You get the peer-to-peer groups. There's literally, there's 2 or 3 live events every week that you can meet other people. You get, you get, I don't know, 100+ videos and templates. That you can just learn about how do I build internet audiences? How do you build internet communities? How do you set up a paid community? All that stuff. And then I was like, okay, what's that really worth? Like, people charge thousands of dollars a year literally just for peer groups. So it has peer groups, it has research, it has like multiple courses in it. And then I was just like, I want to make— and then this is the question you have to ask yourself is how do I make it a literal no-brainer offer? You know, Alex Hormozi calls it, I think, an irresistible offer. How do you make it an irresistible offer? And to me, I was like, okay, a cup of coffee around here is $3. So I was like, $3 a day, $99 a year, $99 a, uh, a month. It's like, for the price of a coffee a day, you can get this. That was my thing.

That's wild. I see $99 as so expensive in my head, but $3. Yeah. Wow. I love that. Might have to add that in. Yeah. It's, I, once I started adding, so I'm doing like weekly calls now, an hour long strategy kind of calls. That's like when people start upgrading a lot more. And I actually took, uh, some questions from my community earlier to ask you.

Oh yeah.

So, yeah. I told him I was talking to you. And so one of them was, one of them was how does the personal holding company and finding new businesses relate to building communities and even like free communities, right? I don't know if Boring Co, Boring Marketing came from your community or is that just your Twitter community generally? Cause there's a paid community, there's Twitter community. How does it all intertwine?

Everything we build starts Actually, let me take a step back. Everything we build is based on the ACP funnel, which is a funnel that we believe is the future of business. ACP stands for Audience, Community, Product. Internet audience. So your first step is to build an internet audience in an underserved niche. So you find an underserved niche. We use like spy software to go in. And find them. So we'll use things like vidIQ or redditlist.com, things like that gives us a peek into what particular communities are doing. Then we build an internet audience, right? And then we convert some of that audience into a free community. So we'll take a, our audience and let's say we'll start on Twitter and then we'll say join our free community to take you from X to Y. So if it's from Boring Market, from Boring Marketing, it's like, hey, you want to learn about how to, uh, how to get customers in an organic way using things like SEO? Join this place. Now all of a sudden we have their email addresses and then we can understand what we can be building for them too. Because now we're sitting in calls, we're talking on, on, on the, on the internet community. And gives us ideas around, okay, what do these people actually have in common? What can we build for them? Then we build the product. Now the product could be a service. In the case of boringmarketing.com, it's actually a set of AI tools that assist to create SEO optimized pages and content. Um, so initially with them, we were like, let's go build, let's go build, let's go build some technology basically. And then we realized, okay. Do we go SaaS? Do we let people do, implement this themselves? Or do we start with an agency and we, the agency essentially uses the technology to implement. So in that case, we started with the agency. So yeah, my answer to that question is everything comes down to the ACP funnel. Every new business that we incubate comes with it. ACP funnel methodology. And now that we're looking at buying businesses, we also look at buying internet audiences, A. We look at buying internet communities, C. And we look at buying products, P. And if they're missing an A or they're missing a C, that's our value add. Or if their P is not really community aligned, we'll go and build a new P.

Damn, I love that. If they're missing. Yeah, that, that's fascinating. I, I was wondering, what are your thoughts on physical communities nowadays? Like, you sold company to WeWork, right?

Yeah.

And I saw you post about WeWork could have been it, right? Did WeWork just not have enough rizz, or what happened?

You know, maybe at the time WeWork almost had too much rizz, and the problem was with WeWork had to do with financing and structuring. Did they need to be at 28 countries? I don't know. Yeah, growing too fast, but I think, first of all, am I, what do I think about IRL communities? I actually think that IRL is way under, underrated right now. So digital is a good place to prove out your mission, see if it resonates, get your first 100 people, and you can still scale on digital, but it's IRL right now is almost more interesting to me than digital right now. You saw that with Zach Pogro with his whole NYC Run Club, where it's obviously a very hardcore community of these people who are obsessed about running and they're all dressed in black and it's wild. It's super wild, but you can tell that there's so much pent-up demand for physical community.

I think you're definitely right. And there's such a digital to in real life pipeline with this kind of stuff. Like I've hosted events, right? You've hosted events I've gone to, being able to tweet about it or send it out to a newsletter and get 100, 150 people show up kind of thing is pretty beautiful. I've been thinking about hosting more events in New York. Definitely thinking about it. Yeah.

Why be in New York if you're not gonna take advantage of being in New York? What's—

I'm too busy riding the subway, man.

That's true.

Yo, the man on the street interviews, I didn't expect that to pop off, the tweet. I thought I'd get like maybe 10 likes, but I was responding to DMs just all afternoon and evening. And I didn't, I don't know how to scale this thing. If I'm being, might have to cut this part out, but it's like, how do I space it out? Do I build a sales team? Kind of wild.

Yeah, I think, what are your next steps with it?

Next steps, we're filming, uh, a lot this week, delivering. We've had around $20,000 so far paid in the last week. So it's going good. It's going good. But I think we could grow it to like significantly higher. But then the problem becomes, did I just build something where I am walking around New York all day talking to strangers? And do I want to spend my time doing that? So might've just built my worst nightmare or I love it. I don't know.

Yeah. And maybe there is a world where you can find someone else to, to take your place. You're like, you're figuring out the zero to one around, okay, what do the scripts need to be? What type of content is it? Who am I interviewing? What does it look like? How long is it? Like all those questions. What's the business model? How do I get to them? What's the right price point? So you figure out all that stuff and then you just hire yourself out of it. That's just the bigger, the, my, my bigger, my biggest gripe or whatever with solopreneurship is the fact that most solopreneurs are just building themselves a job. And the idea is you should, it's really great to start as a solopreneur and build a product and build an internet audience. And that should be celebrated, but there is a point where at a certain point you might be like, how do I scale myself out of this role? Now, if you're loving it and you're loving doing it, don't scale yourself out of it. Continue doing that. But if you're not loving it and you're interested in incubating other stuff and building other stuff, hire yourself out of it.

Yeah, I took a play from your book, from your playbook of partnerships, going 50/50 with my video editor, super talented guy, edited for Marvel on this stuff. And we spent 6 months working together first, right? I started by hiring him and now I've made him partner, right? And it was scary to go from paying X per month and then holy shit, we're splitting all this. Incentivization, like he's working so much harder, right? Because now he's bringing in deals and he, there's so much more upside. So I'm really seeing that multipreneurship thing where Cyber Patterns will always be my thing, but then other businesses, if I find people I trust partnering with them and going that, that multipreneurship route. Do you have any advice around partnering with people? What I found, like, with Alex, my other, my partner, it's like different skills and like a long trial period.

Yeah. People are way too quick to partner with other people. Yeah. Because they, the people that are generally looking to partner are entrepreneurs and entrepreneurs generally have a bias for action, meaning they, they want to get things going. So for example, if they're creating a, like an AI startup or an LLM company, they might be like, wow, this person worked at OpenAI. I need to partner with them because he, she's the perfect person and now is the perfect time and we need to get going now. We can't waste any time. So they create these narratives in their head around it needs to be now. And you're getting married to this person basically. So you wouldn't go on a blind date with someone and then marry them when the entrée comes. Just, that's, and that's what most people do when they look for co-founders. They have 1, 2, 3 conversations, 4 conversations, and then they're married. So I think, I'm pretty sure your video person, from what I understand, like you've known him for a long period of time, even before the trial period. Right?

Like he was your friend. No, we've become tight because we started working together. Which is funny, something Jordan tweets a lot, has tweeted about is, what is it? Work with people you could see becoming friends with and then become friends.

I like that. Yeah, I like that too. I think that's another thing that's like under-indexed, which is you're coming to work to have fun in a lot of ways. Like it needs to be fulfilling and Like at Late Checkout, for example, like we, we optimize for people who, who we think are going to, are, are going to want to have fun with us. Because if you're not having fun, like there's, you're just less motivated to create interesting things. So I think that's, I think that's right. I think if you can, if you meet someone and you're like, wow, this is a person I, I feel like deep down we can be like best friends. It's like in, what's that movie? Step Brothers. Did we just become best friends? That's what you need to feel when you're chatting with a potential partner.

Yeah. Yeah. When I was younger, I started like an LLC with somebody I barely knew, just like some dumb 19, 20-year-old decision, 21 maybe. And that cost so much in legal fees to dissolve and all that shit.

Like, yeah.

Rushed into that. My partner and I, we don't have an LLC yet. We're just doing that instead of rushing into it. And it's been a lot happier. Where are you thinking about goals for this year with different platforms? Curious what you're focusing on.

Pretty simple. I want to 2x my audience and I want to 2x our revenue at Late Checkout Holding.

So 2x audience everywhere.

Everywhere. Oh no, total audience, total audience, like I reach X amount of people today, I want to reach 2x that in 12 months from today. And then with Late Checkout, the holding company with all our businesses, we do X amount of revenue today. I want that number to be 2x with the caveat being I don't want followers for the sake of followers, and I don't want revenue for the sake of revenue.

Yeah. And still solid net profit, not just—

Yeah. Like, that's— I see. Yeah. Like profitable revenue and from a follower perspective, like people who are there for the journey, like I want them to be interested in what I talk about and could I go and create a viral tweet that gets 5 million views, but it's about, I don't know, something that I'm not going to— it's basically a bait and switch. A lot of people do that. Like they'll tweet something. That's newsworthy, tweet it, it gets millions of views. And then those people might, like, there might, you might get 5,000 followers out of it, but those people are really not there, uh, for you. And I actually find that hurts, that hurts you anyways, cuz then all of a sudden you have this bigger audience of people who don't really care about it. And then if you tweet or on Instagram you post something and you're not getting the likes, then that, let's say you have 20,000 followers on Instagram and you're only getting 75 likes. That's telling the Instagram algorithm that the stuff that you're posting isn't aligned to your audience. So you're less likely, they're less likely to show that to other people. So you're literally hurting yourself.

Yeah. Prioritizing for fast growth instead of slow and steady. Yeah, I've been feeling slow and steady and so happy lately. Like the idea that a plateau is just a step. If I could put anything on a billboard, that is what I'd put on. Like I, I didn't grow on Twitter for a solid 4 or 5 months. I was, I had a lot of ghostwriting clients. I was focused on that. But, and then all of a sudden yesterday I grew 1,000 followers just from a thread and it's like plateau. Just a step. And same with Instagram. Like, I got scared because it shot up and then a week of just slow. And then now it's growing again. Like, a longer term, like, zooming out is— I think a lot of creators struggle with that and then they just quit.

Yeah. Yeah, I really like that. I think if you're not plateauing, you're doing something wrong. If you're— if every day you're just like going gangbusters and you can't deal with the demand of people following you and stuff like that. Like, you're really, you're gonna lose sight of what, who these people are and what you should be creating for them. And these just, these people are not just numbers in a follower count. Like, they're real people. I hope, of course, I think that, yeah, your plateau philosophy is definitely, should be encouraged.

Yeah, I gotta write about that. Maybe that's coming up soon. I'm curious as well, jumping back to, for context, last year, super good revenue, eh, profit, good, but I see you tweet about that. Don't show me your revenue, right? Yeah. Show me the profit because a lot of founders or creators just tweet the pro— or the revenue, but they're spending a shitload on ads. And it's this year I made the vow, like $0 on advertising. I could go viral myself. I don't need that.

And.

Maybe I'll change that next year, but this year that's what I'm doing. And it's like cutting. Last year I spent like $10,000 traveling, like for conferences, hopefully meeting clients. Oh man, what a rookie mistake. This year is cut all the useless expenses. Do you have any like philosophy when it comes to that? Or is, I know Theo is just the, the butcher, the chopping block.

Yeah. Well, we were talking about this. Yesterday, actually. So someone came, someone on our team was like, I want to try this growth channel and for one of our businesses and it's going to cost X amount of dollars. And then someone in the room was like, yeah, but will we make money off that growth channel? How much are we going to make? And it's, oh, we're going to make, if we get 15 leads and one of them closes and it's, that's just too tight. What's, could that money be better spent to another growth channel? And I think when you, especially when you start having a team, like our team, like we're more than 60 people across all of our businesses now. And the thing about that is you have people who have free time and they're just like trying to do stuff. And what ends up happening is sometimes they'll be, if you're a, let's say you're a marketing manager or you're a growth person, you'll be like, oh, hey, yeah, I found this channel. I want to go try it. Anyway, my— the long story short is in your company, it's important to have the philosophy around every dollar needs to be a dollar well spent. And a dollar well spent is— could be in a few categories. One is the happiness to your team. Like, you need to make sure your team is happy. That's number one, because if you don't have a happy team, then you have nothing. There's literally multi-billion dollar acquisitions that happen because of people just buying teams. So keep your team happy. That's number 1. And number 2, when you're allocating money to growth, how is this going to bring you at least 3 times, 3 times? Like if I invest $100,000, I want at least $300,000 back.

What's that number out of curiosity? Sorry to interrupt, but—

Oh, no worries.

I never know what number to like try to go for with that. Like, how did you choose 3x?

Because it's the age-old shoot for the stars, end up on the moon.

Yeah.

If I shoot for $300,000, I might end up at $200,000 or $175,000. And to me, that's okay. If I'm going to make 100% in a year on my money. That's way better than putting it in the S&P and getting 10%, let's say. So to me, that's a bet that's worth making. And I think the mistake a lot of people make is when they're allocating money towards business development and growth and new product development too, they get quite emotional. Like, oh, we should totally try that. We should totally try that. But they don't think about the numbers. And it should all come back to, think about it as like playing poker, like you're betting, right? And it's educated if you have a pocket, you have pocket aces or you have 7-2 offsuit. But that's the cool part about startups and products and internet stuff. Like everything's tracked. Like you have an educated guess, you're making an educated guess. It's a bet. And you. Like everyone should consider if you're an entrepreneur, you're a gambler, period. Admit it. Just admit it.

Yeah, I have a gambling addiction to myself.

Yeah, exactly.

Yeah, I posted something today. I spent $22,000 to grow my Instagram, paying my video editor over the last 6 months. Didn't see a dollar back for the first 5 months and then slowly and then all at once, it's all back in a week or in 2 weeks now. And it's wild. Yeah, I had no idea if it was going to work. There was a good chance that it would totally flop. Most startups fail. Most creators fail. I feel like that's a sad reality that we don't talk about is like most creators fail.

Yeah.

And just having the balls to try it is a lot to be happy about. I want to double-click on one of your points earlier. Happy team. I always see you posting up the retreats. There's part of me that wants to break in, get a private jet, hop in, and that looks awesome. What are your thoughts on why spend the money on a company retreat? And second question is, are community retreats, is that a thing? Do you think about, do you think about that?

Yeah. So on the team, on the team thing and retreats, I think it would be weird as like a community-oriented company if we didn't bring people together. So let me put that out there. Facts. First, when we think about doing our retreats, we actually think about doing, and I actually hosted this one, like I led it and designed it and tried to make it interesting, but we think about how can you make a memorable retreat? And so it's not, don't just get a, like an Airbnb, get an Airbnb, like on, on the water with a massive pool and has a boat, and I know people are going to be listening to this and they're going to be like, I don't have the money to drop whatever it is on an Airbnb, but it's like that. But it, the difference, the price difference between that and like a regular Airbnb is totally worth it because your team is going to remember that forever. We rented a literal château that we had 20 people come out to, a château in the 1800s, just outside Montreal on this mountain. And it was crazy. Now, and we got, and we, yeah, we like hired a driver and did we need to do that? Absolutely not. Did people remember it? Absolutely. And my bet is that the extra X thousands of dollars that we spent on that, made people feel like this company actually cares about me. And my hope also is that being in this environment, you get one good idea from it, it pays for itself. So that's my take on team retreats. And then community retreats is something that's really interesting. I think that, uh, a lot of the digital communities are going to have a physical component. For example, if you sign up to your community, maybe you get access to 1, 2, 3 retreats in different places and maybe you partner with, do you know that company called Wander?

Yeah, I've talked to John.

Yeah. Yeah. So maybe you partner with them. I was thinking about that, like reaching out to them and being like, hey, I want to host some retreats. Would you be down to partner with me on it?

That's a great idea. I love that. I. Added a, for exec nerds who are like the $999 a year, added like an executive dinner kind of thing in New York once a year. Yeah. I feel like adding that IRL aspect is so cool. Yeah. I, one more question. What was it? Oh, have you ever gone on a Think Week? A solo Think Week?

Yes. Yes. So I have a, I'm lucky I have a house. In, on, in the mountains in Canada somewhere, which is probably my most productive place on the planet. And sometimes when I'm stuck and I need to do complete, like a task that isn't gonna take a day, isn't gonna take a few days, it's gonna take a week or two. Like I'll just escape there and just like bang it, bang out the, what it is. And force myself to. So I think I encourage other people to find a place in the countryside if you can and do not disturb mode your phone and just drink a lot of coffee and get it done.

That sounds amazing. I, I might have to schedule one of those. I've been thinking about it for, for a little while now. There's a reason why writers often work alone, right? Maya Angelou rented a hotel room like every day for 6 hours just to work and other ones work alone is I try explaining it sometimes to my fiancée and it's like, I just think better creatively a lot of the time when I'm solo and have room for my thoughts.

Right.

You need space for your thoughts. Yeah. I had a post about it. I think being, being alone sometimes is, is great for creatives. Also can be terrible, but yeah, really depends the day.

I think if you have a specific outcome and goal that you want to achieve, it's, it is really helpful.

Yeah. Yeah. Facts. That was all the main questions that I wanted to cover. I'm still like, yeah, that, that was dope. Very excited. Good shit.

Yeah, that's fun. That was fun. And you're doing good things, man. Keep it up. And I'm sure that if you're doing good things, which I know you are, and you've brought together this community of people doing good things, I think it's just gonna increase your luck surface area, which is really cool cuz I can see you partnering with them and working with them, and you're already doing it, but as it grows, so I think it just makes you a lot luckier and the people you surround yourself luckier. And as they say, proximity is power. I think it'll be pretty powerful 2024.

I appreciate it, man.