FBI Spy Secrets to Master Trust & Build Alliances | Robin Dreeke Leadership Tips #179

Welcome everybody to the home front. I'm Jeff Dooden. If you graduated the Naval Academy, served five years in the Marine Corps, joined the FBI, and became a highly decorated recruiter of spies and shared all of these tools and techniques in a book called Unbreakable Alliances, your name can only be Robin Dreek. Welcome, Robin.

Thanks, Jeff. You're right. That's a great intro. How do you.

How do you like to have your entire life summed up in four lines?

I can. I can sum it actually in one word.

Yes.

As we were saying before, dad, it's the greatest, greatest title in the world. All those skill sets I have for my professional life gave me the best job in the world. I love being a dad. There's no better thing in the world.

How many children?

I have two. I have two adult grown children. My daughter is. I suffer proud parents syndrome. I apologize. My daughter is a. Is a 27 year old labor and delivery nurse, and my son is a 25 year old Marine Corps jet fighter pilot.

Why didn't they do anything? That was high pressure.

You know, there's this, you know, here's this funny thing, actually. It's a beautiful arc into what we're talking about. I literally was just talking to my future son in law on the phone. I said, you know, you can't use, you know, my daughter Caitlin or my son Kevin as, as these examples, because for some reason these. The only two people in my life I've known that have actually been able to do and achieve exactly what they set out to do in life for their careers. And why was that? At the, in middle school, they wanted to do these things. And what do we do the entire time? Every single time, all we ever did was strategize who do we need to talk to and how do we develop a healthy, strong relationship with that person. Because that's what solved all the challenges and problems and helped us move forward.

Our network is our net worth.

100%. 100%. That's what we're hired for.

Robin, what does somebody need to hear to become a spy?

Oh, there's. So it depends on how we recruit. It depends on how we define spies. So if, now if I. Are you talking in terms of how do. What does someone need to hear if I want to recruit a spy, like the spy themselves, what do they need to hear?

Yes, if they. So I look at this through two lenses. Number one, you're going out in. In. You're recruiting spies in the United States for people to work for our government.

Mm.

And then Sometimes you're turning somebody or you're. You're finding an asset and you're turning them into an informant or spy in some other country for us. And I don't know if that was within your purview or.

So I didn't do the overseas stuff. That's the purview of the CIA, but I did all the domestic stuff here in the United States and. Yeah. Recruiting Russian intelligence officers, spies, whatever you want to call them. Yeah. And so here's what they need to hear. And I'll equate this, what every human being really needs to hear, if you want. If you want to do big things in life, is they want to hear that I'm here and available because you want to use that word, available, because you don't want to impose yourself where you're not wanted. I'm an available resource to solve a critical life challenge that you're facing, that you've contemplated for years and years and years. And I'm going to keep you and your family safe for now and all eternity. That's all.

Okay.

That's all.

Okay. So safety and security, number one, because.

It'S our greatest human motivation, is to feel safe.

Can you really promise that?

I said I can do all I can do.

Okay. Fair enough.

And now when you.

I've seen movies.

Yeah. And so here's what you want to do, to do that too, is because basically the entire time all we're trying to do is we're trying to inspire trust. And you can't force trust. I'm not saying you can't make them trust us. We can't convince them to trust us. We can inspire them to want to trust us, because inspiration is about unlocking it for within them. And so when I'm offering them a solution to a critical, highly critical life challenge that they face, that they've contemplated for years, this wasn't a spur of a moment kind of decision they made. I'm then going to do what I have the behaviors of trust for. And that is I'm going to have open, honest communication. I'm going to offer transparency. I'm going to offer vulnerability. In other words, owning what I'm good at, owning what I can't do at. And be very honest. Honest and open with it. Because when you're doing these things, you're now empowering them with choice about how to move forward. When you're doing this, you're giving them complete situational awareness. Because our greatest motivations we have as human beings is to. We want to Feel safe. And we also want to act in our own best interest in terms of our safety, security and prosperity for ourselves and those we care about. And so when you're acting in congruence with all those things, someone may make the choice to align with you and go down that path with you.

Do the people that you recruit need to have the ability to get people's confidence?

Do they need the ability to get people's confidence? Yeah, for them to be successful. Because for us, in any job we have, it requires people to have the ability to get other people's confidence, especially if you are a spy. And so now reverse it. If I'm recruiting these highly skilled intelligence officers, which are spies, they are being successful at their job and going into being deployed overseas because they are very, very good at inspiring people's confidence. And if they're doing so at a higher level, they're actually getting to go to places like the United States and steal our great national security secrets.

What type of personality traits, what type of background do you look for in an asset? Are you going across college campuses? Are you looking for people that have done things with computers? Is there any one set of characteristics that you're looking for when you're saying this person would make a good spy for the United States?

So, boy, again, there's a lot of different types of people we want to look for and different for depending on the role in general, I'm going to give it a general broad sweep. So what I'm doing when I'm looking for a confident human source or we're looking for even someone being an FBI agent or a CIA case officer that's going to be doing all the hard work as well. I'm looking for someone that has that ability to have a great, healthy, strong relationship. And depending on the level that you're going to be asking people to do things, I know that the, that certain three letter agencies do recruit people that are generally going to be a little more high on the psychopathy level because they have to have a little bit less empathy sometimes. But in general, no, in general, you want people with highly empathetic feelings and emotions towards others. Because in order to really communicate and inspire action and inspire people to share information, you have to really be able to talk in terms of why they think it's important from their perception, from their point of view, from their context, which is what that is deep, deep, active empathy. Because if you can't communicate in terms of why they think it would be a good idea, you're going to waste Your breath. And so having that deep ability to really see life through someone else's optic and lens is really critical. So that's what I'm always looking for. I'm looking for huge interpersonal skills.

Empaths sometimes have the perception of having presence when they walk into a room. It's their body language, it's their tonality. It's the way that anybody that turns to them and addresses them with their eyes or verbally, they, they turn back and they engage fully. And that's, you know, that, that is a. I think that's an innate ability of somebody to connect. But then again, do you want people that are doing espionage to have that kind of presence, or do they need to look like the everyday person that's just out there? You know, the, the hiding in plain sight.

You want a little bit of everything, you know, describing people that are empathic. It's also the ability to, to switch it on and off. And I think there's different kinds of empathic. And you can switch it on and off. Some people are literally born with this great skill set. My wife is a beautiful empathic human being and I learned how to do most of by watching, observing, and analyzing her. And what these people are really doing, this is where you can turn it on and off if you need to in certain situations and learn it because when you learn it get reps in, it becomes second nature, becomes a habit, becomes who we are. And that is engaging another human being without your own personal agenda at the forefront. But you're engaging because your only agenda is them. So when you were describing being present and seeing someone, what it is, is people actually are excited and they're actively curious about what it is you want to share. What I mean, so what they want to share, not what you want to learn. And they're free of an agenda of what they're trying to discover. Their only agenda is you. And so we can do so and then not get emotionally attached. And see, this is where sometimes the natural empaths will get potentially a little tripped up because they get a little too emotionally connected to the outcome the other person is seeking. But when you can maintain that objectivity, that pragmatic approach to engaging this human being, realizing that your paths are crossing in this moment, but you're not tied to the outcome that they're seeking, that's when you can maintain both being empathetic as well as objective. It's bringing the ball together, which is really key and critical if you are going to recruit confident human sources and someone's going to be doing some dangerous, potentially work for you or things that actually could threaten their lives. And because if you get too emotionally connected, you are not going to be of service to anyone.

There's a CIA agent that's running the podcast circuit right now. He's got a fellow with longer hair. Do you know what I'm talking about?

Potentially. I know quite a few of them. Who is it? If you.

I can't recall his name right now, but, I mean, he's been on Huberman, he's been on a bunch of big podcasts, and I've. I've listened at length to him talking about their techniques that they use. And all of these techniques translate immediately and directly to business, and also immediately directly to family, children, coaching, youth athletics, any of these things. The ability to engage and engage in an appropriate way, but yet to stay. To stay in the conversation at the same time as observing the conversation. Being able to have 20 or 30% of your attention focused on what the other person's saying and the rest of your attention focused on where you want this to go and what you're hearing, that was one of the most interesting things. And one of those skills. It's almost like the definition of intelligence. I was. I was talking to Jordan Peterson. I was fortunate enough to be talking to Jordan Peterson one time, and I, I said. I said, hey, I. I really appreciate what you do, and I've learned a lot from watching you. And he turned, he looked me in the eye and he said, like what? And I was like, crap. I wasn't prepared for that. I better have a really good answer here. And my answer was in watching him, even though he's having a conversation with another person, he's holding two diametrically opposed opinions and debating them with himself at the same time. So, you know, your ability, I think intel, you know, some definition of intelligence, is your ability to hold two opposing thoughts in your mind at the same time and keep them straight and be able to be objective inside of that. So really, when somebody's in a role and they're engaged with a target, or they're engaged with trying to get a confession or whatever it is that they might be doing, or just have an exploratory conversation because they don't even know, on one hand they're working down a process, but then on the other hand, they're engaging with this person in a familial way to get them to continue to talk, I find it to be. Now, is that a skill that can be learned or do you have to find people that have that innate ability. And if you do have to find them, how do you assess that?

It's both people can be born and made with these things. I was not born doing these things. And the things you're describing, you know, the, the 30% and maybe 70%, you know, the focus of presence and, and being objective at the same time, I, I, I, I use a kind of slightly different analogy, but it's doing exactly the same thing. And that is in order to be completely present and see and hear and observe the other person, I have to do so free of an agenda so I can be present, so I can hear every single word they're saying, rather than thinking about what is I want to say next. Because when I'm focused on my words, I'm not going to hear their words. But in order to do that and then go down the line where we're going to eventually ask questions based on the things they're saying, and then maneuvering the conversation to areas I'm hoping to go to, I have to have done the pre work, and that's in the back of my mind. So I've had to do the deep, hard pre work, I've had to do the research. I've had to be very, very clear and articulate about what it is I'm hoping to achieve in my goals and objectives. But I got to have it in the back seat. I cannot have it forefront because when it's forefront, it's not going to be taking up brain space in the front. I'm not going to see and observe what they're doing. And that is just being deeply, actively present. And what you're describing Jordan Peterson doing was, and a lot of people can do this when you actually have to do this for a living and you get reps at it as I call. And that is. He's constantly shifting context.

Yes.

Back and forth. So he's holding, he's, he's not, I don't think, at least I can't do this. And the brain science is pretty solid on this, is that you can only focus on one thing at a time. So what he's doing is, I don't think he's holding both at the same time. He's flipping his perception, his context back and forth is like, all right, this person says this. Now let me go over here and hear what, and see what it sounds like hearing it from this perspective so I can re, so I can absorb it as this person would absorb. We do this all the time. When Trying to recruit a spy before. So say I would come up with this great idea and this great operation. And I came up with, I thought was the great first open one liner to an intelligence officer walking on the streets of New York City. I want to recruit. My supervisor would say to me, say to me now. I go, what? Kind of like when you're, when Jordan called you on a carpet, what, what specifically did you like that? I, I said that you, you know, that you took away from that conversation. And so my supervisor said to me, he said, say to me now. And I say, say what? And I said, I'd say, well, I do it like this, you know, say the exact words. And so he forced me to say the exact words. And he said, now let me say it back to you. He'd then repeat that same line back to me. He said, how did that feel? How did it sound now? He said, now. And what my team would then do kind of took that to the next level. Before we'd actually do a recruitment operation, the advice we'd give our case agent said, know the individual that you're going to engage so well, study them so well, and I want you to live their life for an entire two weeks. The same schedule, the same stressors, the same daily behaviors, the same habits. Everything I want you to do is as much as humanly possible. Then I want someone on your squad to walk up to you on the street like you plan on walking to this person and say that same line to you and see how it feels, how it tastes, how it embodies you. And if you think it's creepy, then you need to shut up and not do it until you don't, because that is reversing that context. And that's what Jordan is saying is like seeing the world through all these different optics and lenses. When you start doing this a lot, you don't. You stop seeing the world. And it's, it's a challenging thing to say, but I truly believe you stop seeing things as black and white or right or wrong. You just see things as, as they are. Because people often ask me, so, you know, how could you recruit people that you're morally and ethically diabolically opposed to, that represent another nation state that wants to destroy us? I just saw them as human beings doing the best they could for their families, you know, and they just happen to grow up someplace else. And so I need to do a deep dive in that context. I mean, think about this. How do cops get confessions from people that have done something? And by Confessing it's not in their best interest. They don't do it because they sat there and showed them their shame. They don't sit there and show them how they're judging them. They sat there and said, let me do my best to walk a mile in your shoes and see what actions and decisions I would make from that perspective. Doesn't. Doesn't mean I'm agreeing with you, means I'm seeking to understand you. That is deep, deep context. When you can do that, then you can engage any human being and make it a productive conversation. Because nowhere in here do we say we have to like someone. It's about how do we form a healthy, strong relationship to move forward with any problem.

Our mutual friend who introduced us, Michael Reddington, great guy. Known him for years. And so when I parrot back to him what I think I understood about his teachings, he'll say, yes, yes, but not exactly. So this will probably be a little off, but so, you know, people will confess when they reach the point where any reasonable person, their perception is, any reasonable person faced with the same circumstances might have behaved the same way. I was behind on my mortgage. I've been working for this company for 15 years. The VCRs are right by the loading dock. I didn't mean to steal them permanently. I would somehow pay back the company, but I needed the money, and I. It was. It was available to me, and I think anybody. I think even the boss would understand that. I just, you know, I kind of own this business. I've been working here for so many. And when they reach this point to where they think any reasonable person might have done it. So in a confession situation, you have to get them to. You have to peel that onion back till they are comfortable with the fact that then you have to give them a freedom. You have to give them grace from judgment. You know, you have to. They. They have to. They have to believe that. That it's going to be the most reasonable thing in the world that they would have done this. And. And then they're willing to confess it, and you have to give them that opportunity to kind of save their face a little bit inside of that. And then, you know, so I, I. It's the. The psychological aspects of interviewing or confessioning or what you've done is. I mean, it's very, very tactical. And so how about this? I have a question. When you're recruiting a spy or one of your spies is engaged and they're seeking something, where do they have to get this person to know that it's the right time to either make a suggestion or for an ask we could use. It would really make sense if we could see the plans of your fighter jet or something like that. I mean, how do you know when you've had enough first dates that then you can start to suggest that the relationship go to the next level and that there might be some specific things that you could find some common ground on and that it would make sense?

It depends on every individual, in a sense that they have to be in a position that they feel safe, because that's all we're doing. That's all we're talking about, is inspiring someone to feel safe for the decision they're making. And the decision they're making is congruent with what they think is the path forward that is best for them. And all I'm doing is I'm offering them opportunities to. Hey, in order for us to take this to the next level, if this is something you're comfortable with, again, using that word, if, then here's what my people are going to need to see. Otherwise, we're going to have to stop our conversation, we're going to have to stop our dialogue. And all those things that you said were important to you, we're going to have to put them on the back burner until you are safe and are comfortable. And what can I do to inspire you to feel a little bit safer? Where. Where did I fall short of you that allows you to feel safe, to want to do that? And so, again, you're owning your behavior. You're making it about them. You're making it what's important to them, and you give it. You adjust your tempo to what they're comfortable with, and at the same time, you're letting them know what your management is saying you need to do in order to move forward. Again, you're offering transparency, openness, honesty. You're being vulnerable, saying where you fell short. Again, it's still hitting the same basic fundamentals that we're seeking in human behavior. And what was striking me as you're talking about Michael, and actually I quoted Michael right there too, about, you know, never show Shaman their shame. I literally got that from him. It was such a beautiful quote that he says that when you want to want to engage someplace, but what you're really doing in all these situations, everything you're describing can sound pretty chaotic. And what all I'm ever doing, all we're ever doing in a situation is offering another human being. And I'm very holistic about what I do, by the way. I don't think in terms of tactics. I don't think in terms of strategies. I talk in terms of a very holistic approach because people can see through you trying to use tactics and strategies against them because it just looks creepy because it becomes about you and not about them. So I'm very holistic. But what you're really doing in all these situations, as an analogy, is people, like, whether they've done something wrong, they're spying, they have. Or they're solving major problems in their life, they are in chaos. The brain is in complete chaos. And people's brains do not like being in chaos. All I'm in chaos is a massive storm. And you can't see that. You're in the middle. You can't see that there's. That there's all this calm air and this easygoing world around you. When you're in the storm, the storm can only be two feet out. I mean, think about you in a massive torrential rain, downpour, storm, hurricane. Meanwhile, five feet on the other side of this is common air and beauty. But you can't see it because you are in the middle of chaos. All you're doing is I'm reaching out and offering you a hand to come out of the chaos. And that's why people choose you. That's why people confess. That's why people volunteer. That's because they finally reached a point in their life. And because of this great conversation, dialogue, I'm able to paint for you. You say, you know what? I'm going to choose the path of a calm life. I'm going to choose the path of healthy. I'm going to move out of the chaos and into the light.

Something you said a minute ago was, we can't continue this if I can't get you there. So we. I'm a. We're a horse family. We've had horses. And one thing I learned early, because it was important to me, is that for a horse to kick you, they have to shift forward first because they have to. They have to rebalance their weight before they can take that foot up and kick at you with it, right? So you can. Once you've seen it, like you, you can't unsee it. Not to say that. Not to say that they're not. They don't do it quickly and you're going to get away from it. But, you know, I've often said that, and we. In the. In any sales process or any negotiation process that people can't really lean in until they feel you pushing them away.

Yeah, sometimes.

So you're in this conversation and you've talked about safety and what it could be like on the other side. And they have the key to that life. They have the key to that economics or that security or whatever it is that you're able to provide for them. But if they're just kind of wavering there, and then you push them away by taking it away and saying, well, we can't. This is as far as we get to go.

Right.

And then at that point, immediately, generally I. When I've done that, I know within a half a second, because they will immediately fill the space and say, well, no, no, no, no. You know, they'll lean right in and they'll. They'll come towards you, and then you just need to get out of their way and let them keep coming.

And you know why that is?

I don't.

I'm sure you do. It's because they feel in control again.

Oh, okay.

Because so people start getting reticence is when they start feeling like there's manipulation at play. And manipulation is a control of time, action, space, words, thoughts.

Yes.

And so when they feel empowered with choice. Again. Again, my four keys to communication. The last one is empowering people with choice. When they feel like they're back in command of their choices now, they feel safe. Because, again, when we have situational awareness, when we're empowered with choice, we feel safe. Now I feel safe that it's my decision to move forward. And so. And you know, did you watch old movies ever?

Sure.

Did you ever see the original 1934 Miracle on 34th Street? Santa Claus.

Yes.

Macy's.

Yes.

So think about this. So in that. In that old movie, Santa Claus is at Macy's, and Macy's is trying to sell their toys. And he'd have all the kids sitting on their laps, and Macy's didn't have the toy. And so what did he tell the mom to do? Go to Gimbel's and get it there. And the management was going bananas. Oh, my God. Santa Claus is sending all the. All these people to their competition to buy the toys that Macy's doesn't have. And meanwhile, one of the moms goes up to the manager at the end of her son sitting on Santa's lap and says, I don't know what game you're playing, but you know what? From now on, we're gonna go. We're gonna buy at Macy's because you actually looked after us. In other words, Santa Claus empowered them A choice to solve a problem in their life and just. And gave them the choice about how they wanted to do it. Formed great trust.

Let's move over to your book because I read it yesterday and I'm in the middle of a bunch of negotiations. I think we always are. But it's unusually heavy for me right now, the scope and type of negotiations that I'm in. And I picked up your book to prepare for our conversation. It's called Unbreakable Alliances by Robin Dreek. It's a highly recommend and what I like the most about it. So I. Okay. Candidly I'm like, man, I'm gonna get some really good FBI stories in here. You know, I'm a. How many times has this guy been shot? No, but you know, like what's, you know, how fast was the car chase? Right. But no, this is a business book, right? This is, this is taking some very basic principles like you mentioned, unlocking the power of communication, the four keys to building strong alliances. And it's to me, I actually highlighted it, I copied it, I highlighted it and I'm going to have it on my desk or the conversations that I have this week because sometimes we overcomplicate things and we get too tactical. And if I've had any success in my life thus far, it's been very relationship driven and sometimes I've gotten taken advantage of and other times I've given too much. But there's other times where we've won and it was just based solely on the fact that the people knew what they could expect from me and that if I hadn't screwed over, you know, people in the past and there's not a people in my wake just, you know, laid over with, with my business dealings and my personal dealings that they could expect, that they could generally trust me, that if I said something I would do the best of my power to deliver on it and that I would listen and try to always do what makes sense. And I've gotten into different business deals where there was issues of control. People have not people appointed me as the person with the decision authority and the control. They put themselves at risk. But I mean, and these are relatively large deals, but they trusted that, you know, that I would, I would make the business decisions that were in the best interest of the business and I wouldn't self deal the, you know, so I think, you know, as, as you look at these four keys, seeking thoughts and opinions of others instead of solely focusing on sharing my own. The second one is speaking in terms of Other people's priorities and challenges and pain points instead of your own. So basically being very Solomon like and making sure that you really understand what's in it for the other person. Third key is practicing non judge judgmental curiosity. So basically validating others. When people ask me questions and they're on point that I understand that I'm heard and that they really understand what's here as opposed to just trying to, you know, negotiate against me in the situation, which is kind of repulsive. It's, I'm, I've, you know, to your point, I get repelled very easily when people are overly transactional in the moment and I think they're missing the long term opportunity of a relationship and, and that, and then empowering others with choices. How did you develop those? And would you just care to expand on. And then it goes on. And the following chapters are Trust, communication and Inspiration. And that that framework is, is, is so simple, but I find it to be so true.

I, I discovered it and thanks for sharing it because to me it's the anchors of everything in life. It's everything in life I was missing. I discovered it because of great, fantastic, humbling moments. You know, most of us go through childhood trauma varying degrees. And I always say we were born pretty perfect. The world messes up for about 19 years. We spend the rest of our lives overcoming those trauma pain points in life. And what happens to typical people, especially in my case was I was very, very adept at solving my problems. You know, I grew up with no money. I had to go to work at a young age. You know, you get bullied, you know, whatever it is. And so you over problems, challenges and pain points your own. And I was very good at relationships early on. So I have, I have a desire to, I'm an extrovert, I'm from upstate New York and so I love chit chat and I loved people, I love engaging people. So I was very good at developing relationships and I was using those relationships to solve my problems. Here's the rub though. I had lots of reps up until the time I hit the Marine Corps. I'm the Naval Academy. I was kind of 50, 50, but it's a hard test. Naval, Marine Corps, it's all about leadership. And the first time I was, I was evaluated as a Marine Corps young officer and I got ranked dead last out of all the other second lieutenants. And my Marine Corps major says me, you just need to be a better leader. I said what the hell are you talking about? I thought it was. And I Go, what do I need to do what? How? Owning my behavior. He goes, you need to make it about everyone else but yourself. I had no idea what the hell he's talking about. I had no context. But I started analyzing from that point on when I was 23, 24 years old, what the hell did he mean? And so over time, then definitely by the time I left the Marine Corps and coming in the FBI, you start seeing the impact your words have on others and you start observing it. When Your job for 22 years in the FBI was your impact on human beings and developing healthy, strong relationships, whether it's confident human sources, spies, or even the most important one is upper management. Because they had to approve my operations, you get very adept at shifting the focus instead of solving my problems. What can I do to understand and solve your problems? Because if I can be a problem solver for you, whether it's recruiting a spy, my executive management, my team members, my squad members, my kids, everyone wants you in their life. And so I had to learn the language to shift the focus from myself to others. And here's the beauty of these four keys. You still are going to do the same thing, that the objective doesn't change. So, I mean, I literally was on a call with a client yesterday over the weekend, instead of telling someone what, hey, here's what I think you need to do. You know, I think you need to send me to this training event. I think you need to do this type of profit share with me, like this way, because that's what you think you should do. That's all about you. Instead, you can still do the same thing. It's like, hey, what do you think about sending me to this training event? And what do you think about people that are looking for profit shares in this way? What do you think is the best way forward? You're still getting them to think about exactly the same thing, right? But you now shifted the focus from what I want to asking their opinion about what I want. And they were going to remember in a very positive way. Because when you're putting someone in a position where they're going to be a teacher, mentor and guide, you're valuing them means you're, you're valuing them, you're being present, you're, you're accepting them for who they are, non judgmentally in their thoughts and opinions in a specific area. It's the greatest human flattery we can do. And I'm not talking about cheap flattery. It was like, hey, you got a great shirt on today. This is actually deeply making that human connection. That's just one example of using a. Seeking a thought and opinion instead of giving your opinion. But your objective is exactly the same. It's shifting that focus. And when they do that, you got the big four in the brain. Serotonin, oxytocin, dopamine, and endorphins are firing because you're saying to this person, I see you, I value, and you're safe with me. Nice.

What makes a great alliance?

The keys of communication, for one thing. When I see those things coming back at me, and it's balanced. Oh, my gosh. There's nothing better than a balanced equation where both people are being valued by others and both people are giving value to others. It's when ensuring that the asks don't outweigh the offers. It's making sure it's a good, healthy balance. And here's. And now there's some relationships where there's more energy giving on one side than there is on the other. And that's completely fine, because here's your simple 1 ingredient recipe to see if it's a healthy relationship. Does it have any sense of the horrible emotion of resentment? If there's any resentment at all towards an action, a deed, a thought, or anything even implied, that becomes an unbalanced equation. Because if it is a resentment over someone or something or an action being taken, that means there's a feeling of inequality, there's a feeling of unbalance. And so I'm always ensuring that we maintain a great, healthy relationship and that no one at any point has any tinge of resentment or any of the unhealthy emotions, because that is the sign that we have an unhealthy balance.

We talked a little bit off air about reality shows, and alliances are key to Survivor. I just. The. My wife and I just finished watching Extracted.

Yeah, and they had alliances on that too, didn't they?

Oh, they did. And alliances get made and alliances get broken. But alliances are important. The book Unbreakable Alliances was focused at who? Business people, business owners, Anybody who wants to further their own interests by paying attention to other people's interests.

Yeah. So I focused it and I wrote it for the aspiring leader inside organizations, someone roughly in the 30s and 40s. But, yeah, that's how I disguise the holistic approach, engaging any human being, because it's exactly the same everywhere. There is not one thing in that book that I have not used in every single aspect of my life that I didn't learn a humbling moment. Whether it was, you Know, recruiting sources in the FBI, stumbling my way through the Marine Corps. And the most important role I play every day in life is that as a father, I'm a board member on different things. I coach, mentor, speak. It's everything in life. Because all these things, I mean, think about it. We're Homo sapiens. We've evolved for hundreds of thousands of years. We all seek, crave and desire the very simple thing of wanting to feel safe. And we're always going to act in what we think is our best interest in terms of our safety, security and prosperity. That's the anchor. All you have to do as another human being, another Homo sapien, is figure out what the other person think that means from their perspective, be that person for them. To solve all those things, you do so with open, honest communication, transparency, and that sense of vulnerability, you're going to have a relationship. It's just how we work. And so that's what the core of this book is, is how do we do that and make it a conscious thought so we're not reacting to the world around us, we're actually engaging the world around us.

I was surprised to see the word inspiration in there as a chapter.

Yes.

How is that used in the model?

This is the most important part of the model to me. The I've. I've been part of so many trainings, so many groups, organizations, that everyone always says, well, I'm not. I'm anti manipulation. Because a lot of times people associate the spy recruiting world with manipulation, subterfuge, deception, and it's anything but that. I mean, you just hear from this conversation we're having, that is not my world. Because if you're going to inspire someone to take action, you're not going to use those things. And so every word, when you're working and doing the art form of human interaction, every word matters. And just think about this. If someone thinks you're manipulating them, do you have trust? No. Doesn't even matter whether it's true or not. It's the perception of manipulation. Then think about this, too. That's why I dove deeper on these words, influence and persuasion. Manipulation is about me and what I want. Even when I say the word influence or persuade, those are softer words. They're meant with good, goodness and kindness, maybe at heart, but still, who's it about? I'm trying to influence you to what I want you to do. I'm trying to persuade you to what I want you to think. Who's still it about me? So the word inspire, all I ever tried to do and I've used it throughout our conversation here inspires about what can I do to unlock it from within you. So in order to be inspirational it has to come from and originate from you. So to, and here's what I mean by that. Even the word convince. You don't convince anyone to spy for their country. You don't persuade, influence or manipulate anyone to spy for their country. All I can do is what can I do to inspire you to want to. In other words, how do you inspire someone to take action? Well, I have to offer you a resource for priority challenge or pain point in your life for you to overcome it. And now I have to couple that with the behaviors of trust. So inspiration is all about unlocking it for then the other person. People talk about inspirational leadership. What's inspirational leadership? It's you being there for others. It's all about the others. So I use that word inspire because it's force you to be other focused, not you focused.

Got it. And we had a conversation about game theory which starts with kindness and then a reciprocal action. So you're on Survivor and you perceive that you want an alliance with one or more people. So your guidance to these people would be to start with kindness, get to know who they are, help them in any way you can, maybe even, maybe even be vulnerable and show, take an action that's visible to them that's for their benefit. And do you find that most people, even though there's obvious self interest in that situation, will reciprocate and at least form some sort of alliance?

So Survivor, the game, you know, the, the reality show itself is complex. I've watched every season now forever. And actually the Survivor that won using game theory was back. I think it was easy. 13 or 15 Yule Kwan Cook Islands became a friend of mine and he actually, he used game theory or the, the game theory called tit for tat. And the computer models played this out and they've done it through hundreds of thousands of iterations. And it's the way actually human beings work most cooperatively. It's actually about how do you form a cooperation where both parties mutually benefit. And it's actually through game theory. And the theory is very simply you start with kindness and then you just reciprocate the last action. And it means, it means you have to have the courage to take that leap of faith to start with kindness. Now who has a challenge to do that? People that are see the world as out to get them. They see the world that they're a Victim, they're wound collectors. Also, if they get wronged once, then they hold on to that and all they're going to do is reciprocate wrongness and they're going to hold a grudge. And people that hold grudges cannot effectively use game theory because they're going to be out to get you. What game theory simply says is matter of fact. The most effective politicians and statesmen we see in the world use game theory. They start with kindness, but if you punch them in the face, they're going to punch back. Yeah, but as soon as you stop punching in the face, well then we're all, we're all in big smiles and let's just move forward from here. The past is the past, we're in the present. So game theory is just starting with, starting with kindness, reciprocating the last, last emotion or action taken. And then eventually it always ends in kindness. Kindness on both sides. In other words, offer, offer on both sides.

Okay. Who do you work with in professional life? Or would you consider yourself to be a negotiation trainer, a career trainer? What. How would you describe your, the people that you work with the most and for what? And for what?

It's a great question. It's been leadership 100 leaders in different organizations. A lot of times it's, I do a lot of coaching, coaching of executives, coaching of individuals, especially finance division, where there's a lot of people in high stakes games and they're building and forging a lot of healthy, strong relationships because people are literally, literally giving their, their entire companies over another person to. And feeling safe with it.

But like mergers and acquisitions.

Yeah, a lot of mergers, acquisitions and also, and also taking care of clients. But I'll tell you, I did a deeper search on exactly what I do and where, where it relates. Mostly it's mediation, believe it or not.

Okay.

As an intermediate, as an intermediary, mediator. Because what do I do most? As we've talked about here, I can, I have the ability to see the world through the other person's context and lens, free of judging that context and lens. When you can do so, you can see both sides. Like you said, like Jordan Peterson you said was doing. He's constantly putting himself in all these different positions as he's negotiating back and forth, even with himself, as he's arguing a point. And so what are those people? Those people are great mediators.

Yeah. Yeah. So what's your day job now? I mean, is it. I know you do. Speaking. I know that you do some consulting work. How active Are you. And you know, what, what are you up to and what do you do the most of and what do you like about it?

Yeah, speaking. Speaking is the number one thing that pays the bills. I enjoy it a lot, you know, sharing these thoughts and opinions of groups. I'll tell you the number one thing I do that takes up most of my time because of my, because of my FBI background and even though I was a spy recruiter and because I'm behaviorist, I, I'm on a, I'm on. I am a true, I'm a true crime commentator. Number one thing I do most of my time, I, I comment on, on all the big cases. I'm on different news networks really. And I'm on a couple weekly pot. I'm a contributor on a weekly podcast called Hidden Killers. So yeah, I'm a true crime guy because we just analyzed crazy people with broken brains. It's just really, it's pretty sad in it. But yeah, that's, that's my number one thing I probably do most of the time now is true crime commentary.

Nice. Nice. So if you were speaking to somebody early in their career and with the lens of what you've got in your book Unbreakable Alliances, how would you guide them in terms of building credibility for themselves so that they can create alliances and ownership and accountability? You know, if you were going to program somebody and say, okay, if you want to have a great career, you're going to need great alliances and these are some skills that you need to acquire and that you need to practice and that you need to hone around building credibility for themselves and ownership and accountability. How would you counsel somebody?

Yeah, first thing is definitely lock in on the four keys of communication. Focus on those four keys. Reverse that optic from self to others, because that's going to build the number one thing you're going to need throughout your life, and that is a good positive brand. You want to be that lighthouse that people want to go to. And part of that second part of that is, is what I failed to have in my 20s. And what I think is the most critical thing that the most successful people have is that is focus on solving and being a problem solver and a resource for others. You know, what are you going to do to make your boss's job just a little bit eas, what are you going to do to make your people's jobs around you a little bit easier, a little bit better? Get, get focus and practice on understanding what other people are going through and what you can do to Be a resource. And I say available resource to you because some people just might not want you. And that's fine and clear. And so just really focusing in on how to be that resource for others, seeing those pain points, seeing those challenges and the most important thing that kind of anchors that all together. Be a problem solver and not a victim. It is the most telling tell that anyone can have is if you see the world as half empty, negative, as a with a victim mindset and you're a wound collector, as Joe Navarro talks about in Dangerous Personalities as a very difficult thing to overcome because problem solvers is what people need and want in life. Problem solvers don't complain. Problem solves just lean in and when you can then focus on and it's not what I talk what Simon Sinek talks about in his book Start with why. Because we have to understand that big overarching why as the mission statement of our purpose. But underneath that we got to focus on what, what questions? What specifically do I need to do to move forward? What specifically was the outcome I was looking for? What can I do differently next time? Focus on what questions, ask what questions because it keeps people cognitively engaged, objectively engage, so you lower the risk that they're going to get insecure or feel like you're challenging them and flare up their insecurities and defensiveness and so ask what questions, focus on being a problem solver and use the keys of communication. That's my best guidance.

I love the term wound collector. Is that yours?

I think Joe came up with it. Joe Navarro. Okay, that's good. It's a good one in it.

Oh yeah. I had Chris Collins on the podcast and very, very interesting man. He wrote a two set book called I Am Leader and they're about 12 pounds of books. These things are like the thickest coffee table book you'd ever see. They're oversized and there's just the words I am on the left one and leader on the right one. And he basically says that people's success can be predicted by their self esteem and their locus of control. And by locus of control. They have an internal locus of control, which would be stoicism. Basically we can't control what happens to us, but we can handle our response. It's not persecuting me that this is happening. I just need to deal with it. I'm responsible. These are the set of circumstances. But I know that I just have to overcome it and deal with it. And I don't spend any time collecting wounds around it or an External locus of control, where you give the power of everything that happens to you, to the market, other people, you know, anything outside of yourself. And it's funny, I heard it in, I don't even want to say what golf tournament, but I mean, it was like the Masters, I think. Right. And you know, came down to the end. Or there's, you know, there's one guy that kind of fell apart and there was another guy that fell apart as much as he could, but he still won it. And they interviewed both of them and you know, the first guy was, you know, well, the wind must have kicked up. I mean there was, I was. See once you, once you, once you see it, you can't unsee it. Yeah, it was a 60 or my reaction 60 or 90 second interview. And within that interview three or four times he talked about some external factor, you know, you know, it's my back or the wind kicked up and this and that. I'm not playing good, you know, anyway for that, you know, and just, and then the other guy was just like, I'm so thankful, you know, my team. I did. I'm so glad it worked out the way it did. And you know, there wasn't, there was no, there was, it was all internal locus of control versus external. And they're both top players in the world.

Yeah.

You know, and I mean, I think if you pick another week, the other one might win. But it's interesting to see how people will take the power that they have to live a self determined life and just acquiesce it to anything and everything that's outside of their control so that they are not responsible for their failures.

You know what's interesting about that too, Jeff, is you're right. Each one of them could win on any given week, but one's living in chaos and the other isn't. Because when you live with an attitude of gratitude, there's no chaos. When you start realizing that the universe isn't out to get you, it just is and ask yourself, what am I going to do about it? That's when you live a calm life. And as Epictetus said, you mentioned stoicism. I love stoicism. I love the Dao Te Ching as well, Lao Tzu and the great Buddhist teachings. And the most greatest one word that you can have to bring calmness to you to calm the chaos, which will bring you abundance. Even though it's an anti abundance word, when you can live with the word enough, you can live without chaos. In other words, instead of saying I need more Getting caught up in the cult of more or the disease of comparison and say, I am enough, calmness ensues. When I have enough, calmness ensues. We are constantly. The greatest disease we're all plagued with is thinking we need or should have more. And that's how our economies, our economy is completely driven to keep us just under what they're marketing to sell. And so if you make this much money in order to get more, I have to make more. I have to create more chaos because more creates chaos in order to solve. I mean, think about it. We don't solve problems when we're in chaos. We solve problems through healthy, strong relationships. We can't have healthy, strong relationships if we're in chaos. It just keeps coming back to, what can I do to create? Because I'm trying to remember the book and I talked about it all. I think it's on the abundance crisis. And that is, you know, all problems are relationship, interpersonal problems. No relationship problems, no problems. And I also don't use that word problem. There is no problems in life. There's just challenges. Because again, a problems, a problem. Even using the word problems is that someone or something is happening to you. No, it's not. It just is. Be water, man. Let it flow.

Be water. Disease of comparison, Tasha Urich.

It came from the book Insight.

Okay. That is, I'm going to use that because it's, you know, I have three children. You shared about your children. And we try to put these things in their head just, just enough so that they, they feel we're empowering them with choices. We, we want that. We don't want to do their thinking for them. We want them to know how to think. But you have to give them these little sound bites that, that are. That. That. That are timeless and fundamentally putting the bricks and blocks in them as they grow so that they're durable and they're resilient and they have perspective and they don't get so far out of balance either chasing a dollar or something else that they put themselves in constant chaos and they're miserable. So the disease of comparison is. I mean, my gosh, social media. And I mean, I don't. Okay, now all the. Anybody. Yeah, that was a boomer comment, right? I mean, anytime you start complaining about these. Social media. But I'm susceptible to it. I mean, we do a podcast. We're one of the fastest growing franchise platforms in North America. We have to promote ourselves. We're constantly looking to see what the competition is doing and how they're Showing up and all of that. So as a result of that, sometimes I get sucked in. And, and once you get sucked in and then you're looking at comparison to other brands and other people and what other people are doing and, and, you know, in business, look, you need to, you need to, I mean, if you, you know the art of war, right? I mean, you need to know more about the competition and then you know, about yourself. So. But it also, it's toxic. And it, if you don't know how to reconcile that and put it aside and use it for the intended purpose and the intended purpose only, it can, it can infect you.

Well, and here's the key to that, too, since you brought up stoicism, it's falling in love with the process and not the destination. And so when you fall in love with the work, you know, so here you are. I mean, we'll use it as an example. I mean, you're putting out, you know, a great podcast and yeah, you're competing in a market with a lot of noise, with a lot of other podcasts. It's easy to get caught up in the cult of comparison, the disease of more. When we're looking at your numbers compared to other people's podcasts, other people's numbers, you know, Joe Rogan, if you want, you know, whatever you're looking at. But what happens is, is that when you start, focus on the finish line or the competition, you stop focusing on the content, which is the process, fall in love with the content, and the result is what it is. And those numbers happen because you're focused on the art itself. You're focused on on the resource and the skills that you're imparting on others instead of the, the, the comparison action. And so that happens when you focus on this, when you fall in love with the process. That's what masters do. Masters are not masters at a destination. Masters are the ones love what they do and they grind every single day because they love the grind. And so find what you love to grind at and you'll never work a day in your life, right?

100%. Robin, this has been awesome. I have a couple more questions for you. Is it. Before I do that, is there anything else that you think we missed that we should cover?

No, I just, I love what you've covered. You've done a great job.

Well, thank you. It's, it's been fascinating and super high value in preparing for this. And I really encourage people to check out your work, check out, check out you online and you know, Put, put your name in YouTube, look at some of the content that you've put out there and definitely get a copy of Unbreakable Alliances. I, I have a curveball and then I have a fastball right down the middle for you. So here, here's, here's the curveball. Gun to your head, you had to, and you don't have to negotiate your way out of it, but gun to your head, you have to start a business in the next 30 days and it has to be something that you're currently not active in. Where's the opportunity in the market that you see that if you had to do something, it would be a good idea?

AI coupled with aircraft transportation.

Okay, tell me more.

So the combination of using, you know, AI as, as the phenomenal tool as it's rapidly rising and coupling it with, with, you know, with aircraft, for people moving, transportation, all that, I mean, so even thinking about this the other day, I was thinking about, you know, Tesla coming out with its at home robots and the Chinese are doing the same thing. It's a lot easier to fly things than it is to automate things on the ground. And so I think focusing more on that industry because that's an up and coming and people are going to be moving through the air on AI, through automation and self guided planes and aircraft a lot sooner than I think everyone's realizing. So I would invest in that.

Oh, awesome. It's coming fast. And your son's a fighter pilot.

Yeah.

Nice.

Okay pilot too. I just flew this morning.

Oh, did you? What do you fly?

Just, I'm a general aviation guy helping a buddy move a plane around. Nice.

Awesome. Okay, before we do the, the fastball, please tell people where they can reach out to you and or consume your content.

Yeah, sure, that's easy. RobinDreak.com R O-B-I N-R-E-E-K-E.com Everything's there. You can get what I call Death by Robin. There's links to the YouTube, there's links to my books, there's links to blog postings. If you want to reach out, it's all on there.

Awesome. Okay, Fastball. If you had one sentence to make an impact in somebody's life, what would that be?

It's not how you make people feel about you that matters, it's how you make them feel about themselves.

Perfectly said. Ties it up on a boat. It's been amazing, Robin, thank you.

Thank you so much, Jeff and everyone tuning in. Make sure you like subscribe and share it with others because he puts a lot of time and effort in.

Oh, thank you so much for that. This has been the incredible Robin Dreek with Jeff Duden. We have been on the home front. Thanks for listening.