From College Athlete To Business Leader #156

Good day, everybody, and welcome back to on the Home Front with Jeff Dutton as your host. My job is to research our guests and craft interviews that bring you the most interesting and useful insights they have to offer. While I do get to share my perspective along the way, my role is to bring out the very best in our guests rather than focusing deeply on my personal journey. Last year I had the opportunity to appear on a brand new podcast, Life After College Athletics, hosted by Ryland Lemons and Jake Hardy. Their preparation and thoughtful questioning led to a great long form conversation. I may not remember every detail, but I did walk away knowing that we had created something of value. So this week I'm bringing Jeff Duden to On the Home Front with Jeff Duden. By sharing that very conversation with Ryland and Jake, I hope you find value in it. And if you do, remember, like, subscribe, comment and share. And as always, subscribe. Thanks for listening. I hope you enjoy it.

Welcome back to the Life After College Athletics podcast where we explore the journeys of athletes transitioning from the competitive realm to the business world. In college sports, the ability to assess risk and evaluate probabilities and make split second decisions is paramount. And this skill, often referred to as discernment, proves invaluable beyond the field in court. And so today, we're honored to have a guest whose life basically epitomizes the skill set. After a successful college football career at Appalachian State, he ventured into the entrepreneurial arena, establishing and eventually selling the nationally recognized franchise brand Avantaclean. His endeavors haven't gone unnoticed as he's graced the screens of the US TV show Undercover Boss, authored two insightful books, and currently spearheads multiple business organizations based in North Carolina. So welcome to the show, Jeff. We're happy to have you here.

Oh, thanks. I don't know who that is, but I'd love to meet him. Sounds great. Yeah. Thanks for having me on. It's a pleasure.

We're excited to dive into your story. Sure. Some of our audience has heard about who you are and what you've done. I mean, you itself, building a nationally acclaimed business and then taking on the role of being a TV star is nonetheless a accomplishment itself. And then being a college athlete is just an attribute to how you've made such successes in a short amount of time. We'd love to hear from you. A two minute drill on yourself, what you're doing now and who you are.

Yeah, great. Well, first of all, thank you for having me on. Very excited to do it. I mean, I think at the core of It. I've always been a coach, I've always been an entrepreneur and man have really tried to have fun along the way, include people in everything that I've done. So I was a high school basketball player and we had a football coach that wanted to throw the football. So, like, where do you recruit people to catch the football other than off the basketball court? So we were running full court and I saw this guy up on the shelf, you know, coaches shorts whistle around his neck. I'm like, I don't know who that guy is. But then he came to my biology class, knocked the door and said, hey, I'd like you to come out for the football team. And that was really a life changing moment for me because I really wasn't intending on doing it and wasn't great, but had enough success where I wanted to go on and play college football. So I walked on to the University of Northern Iowa in cedar Falls, Division 1 program. And I really didn't have my academic life together and I learned a lot about football, but I still needed some refinement. So I dropped back to Harper College in Chicago, which was kind of a junior college football factory. A lot of people came back from places they went, like big schools. University of Illinois, Colorado, Washington, all of these places. So it was a, it was a squad. I mean, like we went and played Augustana, which was the reigning Division 3 national champion. I mean, it was 50 to nothing by halftime, I think. And so it was a good. You know, every starting sophomore at that school generally always got a Division 1 scholarship. So mine was to Appalachian State University where I met my wife. I started the painting business and I got serious about school. So graduated with a degree in marketing, started this painting business because I needed to pay for myself over the summer. I couldn't afford to. Scholarship only covers during the school year, so. And there was just food service jobs, minimum wage plus tips, which was 335 back in the day. And so that wasn't gonna. That wasn't gonna. It was gonna have a little bit more month at the end of my money. So I had started the painting business. I. It was something I'd done in Chicago, working the trades. BU team of college athletes that were taking classes over the summer. And we did 15 to 20 apartments in a day. My partner and I pocketed around $76,000 over a four to five week period, which was good money. And I was like, oh, I like this business thing. This is, this was, this is interesting.

So what year was that?

That was night. Just for that was 1990.

Yeah. So that's a lot of money.

That's a lot of 1990. Yep.

Then.

So then cut my teeth in the insurance restoration business in South Florida after Hurricane Andrew in 92 and then started the business in 94, moved to start our second location in 95, back up in the Carolinas. So now we have Orlando and Charlotte and we became a national, international kind of romp and stomping, disaster restoration, environmental services, you know, emergency services contractor, which I ultimately franchised to 240 locations. And we, I sold it January 1, 2019 to Home Franchise Concepts out of Irvine, California, the parent company of Budget Blinds.

That's crazy. So we read your book Discernment. So if anyone who has not read that book, it's a pretty incredible book, especially just because decision making is probably one of the biggest and best skills that you can have in your life. And in the book you talk about how you got out the startup capital for Evander Clean. Can you go through that story of you're using your pickup truck and coming up with that for the 25?

Yeah. So, you know, you look back and you realize, negotiate, you know, what negotiations mattered to you. And two parts of that. So when I had my painting business, I bought a four cylinder Toyota truck and had, you know, owned it for several years. I paid it off, I went out to, went to Florida. I came back and we had this concept of, of creating this new business and the buy in was $5,000. My younger brother Mike, who ended up as the CFO of the Carolina Panthers after doing eight years in public accounting, he came out, took over my painting business, put himself through college, lived in a house that I had bought, 100% owner financed on the backside of a mountain. So he was a landlord in my house. So he got free rent and then he took over the painting business, which he, that's how he paid to put himself through college. So that was great. Actually. That was, you know, pe. You know, that was really my first example of saying, how can I create something? How can I put systems and processes in place, how can I get accounts in business and then how can I turn it over to somebody and still benefit from it as a business owner? So really that was a, that was my first thing of like build something and then delegate it and then get above it. Because when I went down to Florida, I mean, I still took money off the top of that business that they were running. My partner and I both did. And then when I came back and I needed the $5,000 and I didn't have it. We went to the bank, which we had a relationship with a little local bank in town, which was a predecessor, it was called, was it First Union, which I think was a predecessor to Wachovia, you know, bought by Wachovia, then Wells Fargo, and we had a good relationship. And I took the truck in as collateral. They gave me a $5,000 loan against it. I handed the payment book to my brother and I said, this truck is now yours to use in the business. When you pay off the truck, you own it. But I'm taking all the money and I'm going to head back down to Florida and pitch my $5,000 in to start this company.

So you turned your liability and handed it off to your brother?

Well, you know, I mean, I think he got a square deal, right? So he was, he was living rent free. He was given a business where he, he made, you know, I think tuition for him in state at that point was like $2,400 a year. So he was able to make plenty of money to cover it, plenty of money to cover his expenses. And he ended up, you know, straight A's in accounting and went to Arthur Anderson and then ended up, you know, as the CFO of the Carolina Panthers. So, you know, I really was able to monetize that painting business, but you had to have somebody to hand it to. You know, if we didn't have brothers that were coming behind us to take it over, then we really wouldn't have been able to, you know, continue it and monetize it. So it was really a very important part of my cash flow and my.

Business building early on sounds simple in retrospect. I mean, the idea, hey, I'm going to build something, then I'm going to find ways to delegate it and then I'm going to get on top of it. But let's dive into that a little bit more. How did you determine, hey, this is the point where I can now kind of delegate some of that business or take an opportunity to move it on to the next person, but still keep an equity stake or a portion of the business.

Yeah, you know, it's, I've said this before, it's probably not the right way to say it, but man, many entrepreneurs, first time entrepreneurs are kind of screwed into existence by circumstances. So, like, I had a problem to solve. I had worked concrete moving in storage, I had worked framing, and then I had worked painting. Well, the only thing that I could do to create a business where I could afford the startup capital was a paintbrush and a ladder. So, you know, so I like, to me, I only saw one option if I wanted to stay there and continue to hang out with my girlfriend, get myself out of situations that probably weren't healthy for me, which led me to having my 2.56 grade point average and dropping out, you know, basically getting kicked out academically. In my first college, I really had. I had my thing, I had my life going. So I wanted to stay there on top of this little mountain in Boone, North Carolina, because I had found a really good home and I had found a good situation, and I was having success. So how do I do that? Well, the only thing that I could figure out to do because there was no employment that was going to allow me to do it, was to, to start this business. So for me, that was the only choice. And then when I looked around my set of assets in places I could get $5,000, the only thing I saw was a truck. So I'm like, okay, well, this is all. How do I trade that for, you know, for on my way to get into this company? And so, you know, like a big part of the challenge I think, that people have today, I mean, with the Internet, with social media, is that. And really kids today have so many options. I mean, you. There's option fatigue out there. I mean, like, I look at my kids, you know, and, you know, they were all high performing in the things that they did. They're well educated, they went to camps, they had all this. So I'm looking at them, I'm like, how do you choose now? Like, how do you choose what you do? And then how do you not get envious about what everybody else is doing? You have an idea and you put it out there online and you see that, you know, 10,000 people have already thought of it and are already doing it. How frustrating must that be for young entrepreneurs to, you know, just to, just to see that and that sea of information that's out there. So, so there's, you know, that's, that's a, that's a bit of a challenge today that, you know, I didn't have because I didn't have perspective. I just, I only had the small number of opportunities that were in front of me. And I didn't have, you know, this, this environment to where I could go out and just be envious of what everybody else was doing. Comparative relativity. You know, envy is the enemy of enlightenment. And, you know, when you're coveting what other people have and you're saying, well, why can't I have that or they're younger, they've got more than me, and they're younger than. So you know, what have I been doing? Like, it's really a distraction, it's not a healthy way to think. Like, you got to be good with you, you got to focus on what you're doing. You got to be proud of, you know, what, what's, you know, what you're accomplishing. And really, you know, especially early in your career, man, like, you got to focus because, you know, your lack of focus will lead to a lack of greatness. You can't do a bunch of things halfway, man. Like, you got to pick something and do it well. And I'm not going to say it doesn't matter what it is because look, if you could, you know, technology, finance, like there's ways people make a lot of money, you know, in different majors and things like that. But it, you know, I'm, I went right back, you know, with all my experience, man, I'm going right back in today into property services because these are, these are durable things that people need done that, you know, kids don't want to do anymore. And it's hard to find. And if you can find a way to provide these services to people, needs based, essential type services that everybody's going to need, you know, forever, I think that's a great way to, you know, to, to make, you know, to make an impact, you know, for my legacy and for what I want to do from here to the end. So that's what I'm doing. And that's, you know, so, you know, it's. Yeah, I mean, like, but how you make your decisions, because the quality of your decisions impacts the quality of your life and the velocity of your business. And nothing is 100%, anything can go to zero. So every little decision you make, I used to tell my little football players, I said, you got 99 decisions to make in a day, starting with whether you make your bet or not, starting with whether you thank your parents, starting with all of these things. So every little decision you make moves that little meter to a higher percentage of success or a higher percentage of failure versus the outcomes that you've decided that you want. So your ability to make better decisions, big ones, little ones, all day, every day, what you do with your time, what you do with your attention, what you know, who you put around, you know, what rooms and what, what floor you get off the elevator at and who you find there, the rooms that you put yourself in, like all of those things have A compound interest effect on your life. And you know as well as I do, like, if you're paying interest and everything you have is a depreciation is a, is a depreciating asset. And it's all, lifestyle like that will impact over time, your finances and your wealth as opposed to if everything is in a positive way. You're investing in growth stocks. You're, you know, you're not paying interest, you're, you're practicing some delayed gratification and you're, you know, you're, you're investing, you're saving. Same thing with your time, same thing with your attention, and same thing with your decisions.

Yeah, you mentioned something in the book. It's create more than you consume. And I think that's super powerful for anybody and everybody. And there's a lot to unpack on what you just said. And going back to, hey, how can I not be envious of other opportunities? Because like you mentioned, for even Jake and I, there are so many different avenues we could take even beyond the starting position of our careers.

Sure.

But it doesn't have to be, hey, I'm going to find something and just work at it because I think it'll make me money. You can take something that you're already good at, you already know and make money off of it, as long as you kind of focus on one or two things like you did. You were like, okay, here are my options. Here's something I think I know and I can build off of, so I'm going to stick with it. And that's how you built the foundation. I think a lot of people get wrapped up like, oh, I want to do this, I want to do this. Yeah, but there isn't, there isn't a reality check. And even for myself, like, I get caught up in seeing something on social media or something in a Reddit channel, like, hey, hey, here's a new opportunity or here's a new idea that you can take on. But if you just focus on one and become really good at it can lead to that opportunity to build the ultimate platform that you want to build.

People make their wealth. You know, I've seen, you know, I've seen this over and over. I heard this years ago. But generally people make the majority of their wealth in a very, very short period of time. They spend 20 years getting good at something and then finally that opportunity, their preparation meets opportunity, whether it's in market, whether it's in a deal, and then like in that two to years, like they do the deal that makes Them a lifetime of money. You make your wealth through concentration, you protect your wealth, you maintain it through diversification. So you know, when I'm like, you know, I sold a business and you know, we had all this money and we diversified it and that's great, we've been able to really protect it. But if I wanted to grow at a 25% CAGR or I wanted to have, if I wanted to hit my hourly rate that I self, I ascribed to myself for my time, the only way that I could hit those numbers was to go back in and create in a concentrated way again. And that's what Homefront Brands is. So, and you know, all of that diversified investment is all still there and you know, it's clicking away. It's not particularly risky. It's, it's in some private and alternatives, it's in the stock market, it's in bonds, it's got a nice allocation and I'm not messing with that. So that's protected there. But I mean I could just sit there and watch that and, and it'll be, it's fine, you know, but if I really want to move to the next level, if I want to get in the elevator and I want to go back up three or four floors and I want to run around with the people that are on that floor and get into that room and make that, you know, change my thinking with their thinking and impact my journey with their journey, you know, then I've got to be out doing something, I've got to be building something. I have to be bringing something to the table, something that I can teach them, something that I can talk about, something that they can leverage and we can leverage each other. So, so yeah, now I'm back into the concentration mode of, of saying I'm going to focus on building, you know, not maybe not the biggest, maybe it is the biggest, but certainly we're going to focus on being the greatest.

Before I kind of package this next question because I, I want to touch on this point that you just made is I think that, you know, God gives you a certain skill set and if you do not use that skill set like throughout your whole lifetime, that's pretty selfish of you. So for example, like what you're doing right now, it's awesome to protect the wealth and that's what you probably should do. But you have a true, unique, God given ability to go and create value and go to produce something and create something from nothing. And so it would be selfish of you if you did not use that gift going Forward, right. You could live another 50, 70 years. Who knows?

You're in great shape.

Like if you, if you live 50 or 70 years and you're just watching that money protected and just watching it trickle every single day, just slowly going up, that's boring. It's not using the best of your abilities and the God given gifts that you were given. So I wanted to touch on that too. But I also want to package this next question because you talked about how many options we have, especially now with social media and young people coming out of college and they have no idea what they want to do. You talk about how the very first filter and any decisions you make should be based on your values. And if you have your core value set up straight, that kind of gives you like a ceiling and a floor to where you now can see through that lens. Can you touch on that? And then also about, you mentioned there's no absolutes, just probabilities. It sounds like you learned that from, you know, you're hiring the previous CFO of Pepsi. Can you touch on that story as well? And what he.

Yeah. So on the values piece, like before you start out on any journey, like where's the compass? Like where, what do you, you know, if you, you know, it's almost like that line out Alice in Wonderland. If you don't know where you're going, any road will take you there. So you know, like what's, what's the compass? Like what's, what is? And how does that work with the sail on the boat? And so the first thing you need to do and everybody needs to do it is you need, you know, know thyself. Who are you? What, what do you stand for? What won't you tolerate? It's different for everybody. I mean your, your personal values and you know, what you're willing to do, not what you can do, but like what you're willing to do and what you're not willing to do. So you, you wrap that up and you, you do this. There's a great book called the On Purpose person by Kevin McCarthy. Man, it's like, and he even he has like the on purpose Me website where you can go and I think for $2.99 you can run through this purpose exercise to figure out and you end up with this, this ing, you know, word I exist to serve by transforming leaders, inspiring entrepreneurs, whatever it is for you. So you end up with this kind of North Star of your purpose. And it's probably going to change over, over your life if you're, you Grow. And, you know, mine changed a little bit when I had smaller children. And then as they got older and where I was in life, I ran this exercise three different times. And it came. And there was variations on a theme, but, like, that's your North Star. And then you start. You don't make up values. You look at the history of your life, and you pull them out of who you are. Now. There might be some things about yourself that you want to change. So, you know, for example, you know, our values are live fun, be humble, respect others, be a servant, leader, fail fast and move forward. Trust yourself to take chances. Always do more than is expected. Okay, like, that's pretty much our what I had on the fridge for 15 years. And don't think for a minute that they. They don't get in the heads of the people that are getting the juice boxes out of the fridge. Like, they read them every day. So it's like, okay, so you see the evidence of having, you know, the consistency of, you know, setting these. This framework, these boundaries. You know, your. You know, your culture, whether it's a family or it's a business, is. You know, your culture is the organization's memory, and it lives in the stories and the unique language. So that's. Unique language that kind of frames out, like, how you should make decisions in your life. And, you know, so, you know, we're. We're deciding. I had this opportunity to do Undercover Boss, and nobody in town. I mean, we were. We were active in the town and all the kids, schools, volunteering, and we were coached everything that they would allow us to coach. And, you know, nobody really knew much about the business, but it had really grown. And I. We sat down and I said, hey, I've got this opportunity to do this show. We've all seen it. We had watched it. We understood what it was. Sometimes it went really poorly. It. I mean, it, like, drama makes good television. And believe me, they put you under stress, they set you up in situations, and I've had to fight. I mean, it was the. I. I had to go into it and say, they can't put anything on that. I don't say. So I had to. Like, they could only put on. Now they will put things together that weren't said together to create something, and that's fine. Like, but you don't get any. You don't get to see it until it plays live. Like, there is no. Once you film it for a couple of weeks, and then you don't see it till it plays live. You have no, they're going to make an interesting television show. And if you looking like a jerk is part of it, then that's part of it. So, so I sat the kids down and you know, we had this, this mantra that I got from coach Jerry Moore at Appalachian State University, which was always, do more than is expected. And it was sitting above their, their know, sitting above their head. And I said, look, you know, like, if we do this show, you know, things are going to change for you because like it or not, like, they'll probably be an article in the paper. Your friends, your neighbors, your teachers. Now they're going, they might look differently at you because they're going to perceive that you're wealthy or they're going to perceive, you know, whatever it is, or they'll be envious of you because you're on national tele. Whatever it is. And so we sat down and. But like, honestly, it was just laying it against those values of, you know, trust yourself to take chances, fail fast and move forward. You know, you can't not take an opportunity. Like, if there's not a good reason to say no, then you need to say yes. And while there was risk in that decision based on our values, like, I couldn't set the example of saying, well, I really don't want to do it. I'm afraid, you know, something could go wrong. You know, it's, it's, you know, you're not doing more than expected if you're turning down an opportunity that can help your business in that way. So, so that was an example of, you know, just looking square at those values and stuff like that. I'll tell you, my daughter, she shoved one, she shot one right back in my face last year. She. So she was a, she's a high performer. Like, she's, not only is she a multiple time world champion equestrian, she also played on the women's 19U National Soccer Championship team as a 16 year old. So here's, here's a kid that's just quiet de minimis, you know, big glasses now. I mean, and she went to Clemson, got a 4.0 in accounting. And then she got into law school and she got into nyu, which is expensive. And she could have gone, it's a top five or whatever. So she could have gone to these other schools that probably would have paid for her tuition to go to a top 25 or 30 school, you still get a law degree, all of that kind of stuff. And dude, she's, you know, I said, well, have you thought about this? And she Said, didn't you always tell us to compete at the highest level that we qualify for? And I'm like, well, crap, you know, so, yeah, I mean, like, so like, these, these values that you instill, they allow you to manage teams with a looser bit. They allow you to, you know, and you have to live them and you have to, you have, you know, you can't, you can't say these are for everybody but you, but allows you to really, you know, be more of a coach than a disciplinarian. It allows you to. I don't know what you guys experience was growing up, you know, everybody has different parenting styles and, you know, some are, you know, high discipline and, you know, over, you know, you know, I always wanted to teach the kids not what to think, but how to think and then teach them the difference between right and wrong. And then at the age of 14, I told him, I said, the age of accountability is 14. There's nothing more that I can tell you. You're basically on your own and I'm not going to rescue you. So have at it. And, you know, it. It worked. But the values and, you know, understanding, like how we would make decisions on, you know, things that were unclear, challenging things, difficult times, was a. Was a filter that we always had and we always had fun and we always were respectful. And we, you know, being servant leadership's important to us and making sure that we're, we're helping, you know, you know, people crawl over the bodies of the people that are right around them and don't help them and then give money to, you know, a chair, a national charity. Well, there's people around them that are starving or in need or something like that. So, you know, really, you know, making a personal, you know, making it personal and helping people that need it when you know that they need it as well.

Being 25 years old right now, one of the greatest things that I think my dad to. For this day or to this day is he raised us to make decisions. So even when we were like six years old, if we wanted to order a sandwich at Subway, he is like making us order it. And I'm like, I can't even see over the counter. Like, I'm like fogging up the glass. But he wants us to make those decisions. Like, it's not my sandwich, it's yours, and I'm not going to order it for you. And yeah, so, like, even when we were 16, 17 years old, and we're in high school, having these tough decisions to make in life, my dad and mom are always there, willing to listen and help and navigate, but they never made the decision for us. And I'm actually super thankful for it because I, I think it was super valuable so to go to that point. I, I think that if you can raise your kids to make their own decisions, you, the, the, my mom always says the goal of a parent is to, when they're 18 years old, to have your kid be able to leave the nest and be able to be a functioning human on their own. And a lot of moms want to like coddle their children and have them around. And that's awesome. You should have an authentic relationship with your kid. But if, if when they're 18 and they leave the house and they can't function and make decisions on their own, then you haven't done your job as a parent, in my opinion.

I've seen it. I've seen people that were over coddled show up at college and they go absolutely bananas. You know, like that's, there's that first two semesters, man, like you don't like, they're unchained for the time first, first time and they're trying to work it all in. Let me share this. So one of the bigger rooms I got into was ypo, Young Presidents Organization. It's pretty high end group of business owners, leaders, executives, high qualifications to get in. And one of the things that we talk about is we never give advice. We always share experiences. And I think that's, that's the parenting trap falls into that. So if you don't have experience in something, you shouldn't be giving advice in it. And you know, so, you know, parents don't, if you, you know, if you don't specifically have experience with something and you're, you're making these, you know, you're constantly just telling kids what they need to think about everything. They get to be lazy thinkers and you know, as opposed to just, you know, sharing your experience, setting, setting an example the best that you can of work ethic and you know, all of those things.

One thing that I carry with myself and sorry to go back is at the beginning of starting this podcast, I had a thought in my head like I'm a little worried about what people are going to think about me. And I don't think it was from the sense that like, oh, like I care all about what people see me and view me as. It was more like how am I going to reflect myself on what people will see me as. So it's more of like a personal thing. And maybe this does apply to you or maybe it doesn't. But how did you get comfortable with going on a TV show where now you're going to be someone who's going to be recognized and you're going to be putting yourself out there in front of the whole world for people to judge you? How did you get comfortable with that? Because I think if people can skip past that part of, hey, it's not a big deal, and this is more of an opportunity than a risk.

Yeah. So one thing, whether it's public speaking or which a lot of people have problems with, or doing this podcast, you just have to realize it's not fatal. It's just not fatal. It's not. If you die during this podcast, it's from other life choices. It's not due to the podcast. It's not due to what people think about you. So, you know, and that's. So when people, I mean, anybody out there that is uncomfortable speaking in front of people, here's the reason why. It's because the eyes so tribally and, you know, fight or flight, chemically, at our core, if all the eyes are on you, then you're outside of the group. And if you're outside of the group, that means you're unprotected. You're going to get eaten by a tiger, you're going to get stoned, you're going to get beat with something, Right? So you want to be in the group, you want to be in the tribe. And, you know, so when people see everybody looking at them, they start thinking, oh, man. Like, you know, it's just this, this, this reaction that you get, this fight or flight thing. And you really, you know, just remember when you're speaking or when you're doing something like this, people don't know what they didn't get. If you forgot to say something, if I botched an answer, I mean, there's like 10 things I wish I would have already said, but I'm not going to go back and try to trip over myself to get those things in, because nobody knows that I meant to say that. So, you know, people get what they get. The show goes on, you just keep rolling forward, and none of it's fatal. And if it's not great, then at least you got a rep on it. Which. This is an athlete show, right? So, like, get reps, you know, you got to get as many reps as you can. I was, Dude, I'm an introvert. Like, left to my own self, I'm sitting on the corner of my couch. Maybe Netflix is on. You know, step into the fridge. Like, I'm. I'm a total introvert, but yet I speak. I do 10 things like this a week when I do keynotes, you know, like, all of that stuff, it's totally against my nature. So, you know, part of it is. And this is kind of gets to the athlete thing. How big is your battery to do things that are against your nature? Like, the things that athletes get trained is they. They develop a bigger battery. And it. You know, because will is an exhaustible resource. So the moment you wake up in the morning and you start giving attention to something, this is why you got to keep you. You can't get dirty eyes. Like, it's a football thing, right? Like, you can't get dirty eyes, because if you spend too much time giving attention to the wrong things, you run your battery down. Now you've got nothing less for the things that matter. And in football, like if you're a defensive back or safety or a linebacker, like, if you're playing man to man, like, you know where your eyes are? They're like, on the man. You're in phase. You're on the man. Their eyes go up, your eyes go up, their hands go up. You play through them. If you're in zone, you get. You drop back into your zone. You make your pass read, drop back into your zone, and then you look for work, and you're watching the quarterback. So in football, if you get dirty eyes, you know, if your eyes are in the right place. If you're a linebacker, you're reading through the guards to the. To the near back. If your eyes are in the right place, your feet will be in the right place. You'll maintain your. Your. Your angles, you know, alignment, responsibility, your technique, and you'll be where you're supposed to be on time. So it's the same thing for business owners. Like, if you get dirty eyes and you're spending 50% of your attention on things that are not contributing to where you want to go, you're burning your battery during the day. And that's the discipline. Like, I think that's why athletes oftentimes make really, really good entrepreneurs or employees or they're good at what they do just because they can be somebody that is against their nature longer.

Are you familiar with a guy named Ryan Pineda? Does that ring a bell at all?

No.

Okay. He's a entrepreneur out in Vegas.

Did I steal that from him? Is that what you're getting ready to tell me?

No, no, no. I'm actually stealing his content right now. About to tell you.

Okay.

All right. Well, thanks, Ryan.

Yeah, but. But going off of that, because I really like that of. You know why our whole podcast is about college athletes post athletics. Right. And so one of the reasons why athletes are so successful outside of it, if they can keep that mindset, to apply it to business and work life, is because they've already learned how to work. A lot of people graduate college, and they've never worked before. Or even if they have, it's like, you know, I was a math tutor at Kenesha College. Like, what is that going to teach me? Too much. You know, they haven't gone through the hardships, and if you played college athletics, you've played at a high enough level to where you know what delayed gratification looks like. So one of, like, Ryan's recent podcasts, the reason I bring him up is because he talked about how, as an athlete, like, you've learned to work already. And so when you jump in, you're 22, 23 years old, you jump into the real world, like, you know what delayed gratification looks like. You know that you're not going to see big results in your career for the next five years, 10 years. But if I can just stick it out and I can build the right habits daily, yeah, that's where I'm gonna go. I'll be 35 years old. Like, Ryan is 34 right now. He's flipped 700 homes. He owns 550 multifamily apartments. He owns, like, three other businesses, built a huge following on social media, but he's 34, and it's like, how did this young guy do this? And it's like, well, no, he's been working at it for the less 20 years of his life, developing the right habits.

Yeah.

So I love what you said.

Well, look, we, as athletes, we learn that. We learn that if we work hard enough, long enough that we make progress and negative progress is the greatest dissatisfactor in life. I mean, like, raise your hand if you like to, like, make less money. Your relationship's gone. You know, you're going backwards. Like, that is the biggest dissatisfactor in life. You know, I was one of the reasons I didn't get a real scholarship out of college, out of high school, was I was too slow. Like, I. I was a basketball player, so I had good footwork, but, like, I didn't have good straight line speed, and I really needed to work on that. And so. So now Play that forward. I'm at Appalachian State. I'm an all. I'm an all conference tight end. As a junior, led the team in. In touchdown receptions, all of that, you know, all conference. And they. We have some injuries and some stuff, and they like, hey, Jeff, want to move you into the backfield. We want you to play fullback senior year. And I'm like, whatever the team needs, coach, like, because that's what you do. And, you know, now, what I didn't think all the way through was this. Everything. All of your training is for time. So, you know, when I'm. When I'm a tight end, I'm running with the tight ends and I'm running with the linebackers, and there's different time requirements that you have to finish your drills in. So all of a sudden, you know, I walk over to this new group here and, you know, we're do this, like, you got to run all the way around the field in like, 50 seconds or whatever. And now I'm like 45, you know, and I had 55 before. So here's me at, you know, 240 pounds, and, you know, I'm in here with the backs now, and I have to. Everything I'm doing, I'm doing. I'm doing ropes, I'm doing footwork, I'm doing, you know, we're just. We're just going. And I'm like, this is ridiculous. You know, but. And then, you know, and then, look, I mean, for me, it was now. Now you take a kid that was, you know, under trained, underdeveloped, under focused, too slow to get a scholarship. And then that year we played Clemson, and I was first guy out of the tunnel as a captain, starting in the backfield in front of 77,000 people. So you say, all right, well, yeah, I didn't go to the NFL, but, oh, my gosh, I can hang my hat on that. Like, like, am I fast enough now? You know, my grandfather was one person. He told me I was too slow. Like, that was that. Like, that was, you know, we, we, we. We say. When you say something to somebody, I always try to say, like, things that I think people need to hear that are positive because you don't realize, like, that little thing that you say to somebody might stick with them for years and give them encouragement. And it also works the other way. Like, that's like, dude, this is 40 years later, man. I remember where I was when he said that to me, and it hurt my feelings, but he was right. And I'm glad that he said it to me. When I dropped back into junior college, one of the things that I realized, I said, well, what is speed? It's flexibility times power times explosiveness. So I spent. In addition to. While I was in junior college, I took taekwondo just for the purpose of leg flexibility. And, man, I got really, really flexible over that 18 months because it's all kicking and stretching and all of that kind of stuff. And that gave me just enough speed to get to app state. Just enough like it was. I mean, if I wouldn't have done that, if I wouldn't have made that decision to take that training at the same time I was playing football, I don't think I would have gone. I really don't. So it's these little. It's these little things. So as an athlete, what did I learn during that? Well, I learned that if I think through a problem and I break it down and I figure, what are the two most. Two or three most important things to solve it? And then I apply myself to it and I don't quit. You know, I was, you know, I hung up a heavy bag in my garage. So instead of going out all weekend and staying out all night, like, I would go in my garage, man, and I would just kick that bag and I would practice all the kicks and, you know, and continue to get more flexible and stronger and more flexible and stronger. Like literally by myself in a corner of a dirty garage. Like, that's, you know, we get, we get, we get rewarded in public for. For the work that we put in. In private. And man, that is so true.

Yeah. You took negative feedback and you turned it into a positive.

Yeah, well, I never spoke to him again, but, you know it was. That's not true, right?

Yeah. Just brushed him off.

Yeah. We're done, Pops.

Sorry, buddy, I gotta. Gotta go somewhere else. No, I get that. I. I was told I was too skinny. I didn't have any Division 1 offers. I didn't have, or I should say I didn't have any real Division 1 offers. And when I got to University of Utah, my first year as a club team, so I was taking a chance on the school. Met with the coach year before, he said, hey, we're taking this program Division one. So I took the opportunity and I took the chance. And first year, I was a starter on the club team. It was great. I was playing. And then sophomore year came, better athletes came in for our Division 1 start and I was, I was benched again. You know, I. I was told, hey, you're too skinny. You're tall and you're long, but you're, you're too skinny. You need to put on some weight. So I didn't take that as a negative, like, damn, like, maybe I'll never play. I took that as like, okay, here's something that I need to work on or here's an opportunity for me to get better. And by junior year, I was starting again. Senior year, I was a. Or two years, I was a captain, you know, totally changed my trajectory. Same with you. You took that negative feedback and turned it into a positive opportunity.

Yeah, yeah. We need to hear it for what it is and see it objectively.

Yeah. I think there's a lot of things that people miss out on because they don't have to be an athlete to succeed or have these character traits. It's merely going through trials and experiencing things and putting yourself in. In positions that will be uncomfortable. You know, has nothing to do with being able to be athletic and shoot a basketball, throw a football. Has things to do with building some thick skin, building character traits, learning to love. Learning.

Yeah. There's a quote floating around on, on the Internet right now, and somebody. I had somebody on a podcast and they, they. I. One of my big. My last question is like, if you had one sentence to invest in somebody else's life, what would that be? And this person. Person. I won't get it exactly right. And I've seen it on the Internet in other places, but it's basically everything that you always wanted or the dreams that you want or whatever, however it's phrased is hidden in the things that you're in, the work that you're avoiding. Like, everything you, everything that you want is, Is buried within that. You'll find it in the work that you're avoiding. I just thought that was so true. And people, you know, I mean, look, if you're, you're good, you do strength finders and you, you want to play to your strengths. That's why we all started this with Know Yourself, because you need to be successful in building any team. You need diversity. You need diversity and, you know, in all the things, you know, race, skill set, thinking, you know, sometimes, you know, experience all of these different things. But when you're building a team and you're, you're towards some concentrated focus type outcome, you don't want diversity in values.

Yeah, that's a thing I want to touch on also is, I think as athletes, we always have like a goal, and you should have goals and you should be diligent, working backwards to see what are my daily tasks in order to do that. And you talk about that in the book, right? Like you want to work in 90 day segments but have a goal that's five years away.

Sure.

I think the hardest thing, at least for me personally too, speaking from my own personal experience and not giving advice, but is that how do you balance trusting God's plan and trusting that, you know, things work together for the good, but also being active and diligent today and working towards your goals? How do you balance those, like, two ideas of trusting everything's going to work out, but also being diligent and putting in the work today so I can achieve those goals?

You know, that's a great question. You know, I believe that I've ended up exactly where I was supposed to end up. I think that, you know, the way that I look back and have contributed to the lives of other people, to me is meaningful and the opportunities, you know, that I've had some small part in creating for people has been meaningful and. But I don't know that, like, like, I don't know how to balance that. I really don't know, you know, necessarily how to, how to answer that question. Well, because you got to have faith in what you're doing. You got to have faith in, in, you know, and what you believe. And you've got to, you know, you've got to be aligned with that purpose in the things that you decide to do. Like, when I sold my business, I had this great business coach who had built Husqvarna North America to 530 million from like 29 million. And he was the perfect coach for me. I had him for nine years. And he said, whatever it is you choose to do next, make sure that you drive deeper and deeper inside of your purpose. And so I do that. Like, I'm the one of the reasons that we're, you know, I mean, I exist to inspire entrepreneurs. Like, that's a big part of what I do. And now, you know, we inspire, we entertain, and we educate entrepreneurs. Because I believe that from a purpose perspective that anytime that there's a shrinking middle class in any country, that that is, that is the be. That is a horrible situation and it never ends well. So as we see wealth get, you know, the rich people getting richer and then, you know, people, the wage people, you know, struggling to increase what they have versus inflation and all of these different expenses, you know, that's, that's a, that offends the middle class, it makes it smaller. So, you know, the big I sold my company at 50. And to your earlier point, which I really, really appreciate, Jake, was that you said, you know, it's a crime to just take everything that you've learned and go run away with it and, you know, take it to a golf course course or take it to a fishing boat. So I looked at it and I said, well, what do I have? And that's a really good exercise, by the way. And this guy built Husqvarna. He said every hundred million dollars that they would get friction, they would get entropy, and they would have to take everything and put it out on the curb and only bring the things back in the, into the building that would get them to that next hundred million dollars. So as you go through these seasons of your life, you've got to take stock to be able to like, put everything out there and clean. You know, some things don't come back. It might be relationships, it might be habits, it might be beliefs and these types of things. And then you only bring the things back in to the kind of new, improved you that are going to get you to that next level of kind of where you want to go. So, you know, as you think about, like what you decide, the impact that you want to make and the world, world is if you know what goes, you can say what goes on the billboard, you can say what's going to be on my tombstone, what are people going to say about me, you know, my funeral. You can do all of those types of things and you know, you need to have, there needs to be some direction and intention with the impact that you want to make. And then you just start working backwards and, and that starts to, that starts to really inform your thinking about what you do. And you know, like I, I don't, you know, you, you know, you've got to trust that your purpose is informed by your beliefs. And then the rudder that you have in your hand is consistent with your faith and the impact that you want to make. There does need to be alignment there because if you, if you just leave it, you know, and then, and then you've got to trust that if you work as hard and you make decisions against the values and you pushing deeper into your purpose, there's going to be things that's so clear to you that might have been opportunities where you might have made money or you might have done it, but you know, those things are out because it's not aligned with who you are and where you want to go. And then I think, you know, then it becomes, well, if that's my purpose and these are my values. Then who do I need around my table? And that really, that really accelerates you. Like, you know, this, I said this thing and it was just something I thought of this morning. This is elevator concept. You, you just, you get on at the ground floor and then you know, you're in this, you're in some certain floor of a building and you're running around, but at some point you're going to say, I've got to, I got to get to the next level. So then you get back on that elevator and you go to the next floor. And now there's a whole new set of relationships, networks, opportunities, skill sets and all those things. So now you run around on that and then you just, you know, then you go to the next floor. And what I found in life is there's always another group to get involved with. Like, I mean you can, you can start investing and then, or you can start in a BNI group locally and you know, this is for a small business owner. Then you can go into something like, like EO Entrepreneurs Organization, you know, and then you can, you know, and that's kind of the same as ypo, just as a slightly smaller entry to get into, but it's a vern harnish organization, incredible organization. Then there's, you know, YPO and then there's actually something that I'm in called CEO which is limited to 2000 people worldwide and we currently only have 1700 members. But like when you, you know, you have to go through YPO and be in leadership to qualify for CEO. So now I'm in CEO and it's mostly billionaires and people like that are in that group. And then there's another group that I don't even think has a name, but it's like 50 people and you can imagine who's in that. You know, it's, you know, you know, they're usually on somebody's super yacht having a meeting or something like that. So like, like you just as you keep going through life and then there's things like Strategic Coach or the Genius Network and these other, you know, super high end and all kinds of masterminds and things. So you know, you just kind of have to plot like, like as you're going through your career, you have to be very intentional about the people that you put yourself around and you know, who you're interacting with on a daily basis. Because I'm telling you it's, you know, the, each floor of that building have a certain level of Limiting beliefs that all those people are going to share and, and they're going to have a certain way that they, it's really, it's interesting as to, as you go through these floors in the building and you keep climbing your way up, how differently people think and how differently they, they act. I mean I went to like a $50,000 event invite, you know, I got invited as a guest and you know, there's a guy up on stage, he's, he owns a million 2 worth, trillion 2 worth of patents or something like that. You know, like okay, well what, how do you have to think to get that level of patents? You know, and what is, and why. And then you know, the education was I need to look back inside of all my businesses and, and there's all kinds of patent opportunities that we're not making. And there's this 80 year old gentleman that filed for 75 patents the previous year based on the conversation he had with this guy. So you know, it's just, there's always another evolution of thinking. It's just like, okay, and it's just like, and by the way, it's just like sports. Sports, right. Well, you start at your, you start at the YMCA and T ball and then you go up to travel ball and you go up to, you know, and then you, then you're in the Cape Cod Wooden bat league and next thing you know you're in the minor leagues and next, then you're in the majors. And so it's the exact same thing. You're just constantly clawing your way up and, and at some point based on people's comfort level, they just opt out. They say, you know, I can't go like the, you know, entrepreneurs cap themselves where they're comfortable. Risk, workload, reward, I don't deserve to be in that room. You know, and, and you know, honestly, if you look at a lot of the really, really change agents, whether it be Jobs or Musk or these types of people, a lot of them have, you know, kind of these little fringe mental things, you know, you know, autism, you know, some, some spectrum thing or add. Like they, you know, they, a lot of these really, really, you know, super intelligent people that have, you can't imagine how they did these things. They just don't have the ability to put limiting beliefs on themselves. I mean they don't. So like there's just, well, I'm gonna, now that I've conquered Mars, I think I'll do cars and then maybe a solar company and what else am I going to do? I don't. You know, and it's just like there's. There's nothing that's going to tell him no, and he's smart enough to figure it all out. So the question for him is just, why not? And, you know, it's just. It's just. It's amazing to see at that extreme level how that can. How that applies to all of, you know, all of us normies, to put.

A picture in, like, other people's mind. Because I've. I've heard this analogy of. It's almost like climbing a mountain where the base of the mountain, you know, is super easy to breathe. No work is required to get to that, you know, initial part, and it's so wide that it can fit so many people. And then as you climb up the mountain, you know, that radius gets smaller and smaller. It gets harder to breathe. There's more work that's required to get to that level. And as you get up the mountain, the only people who reach the top are the people who got outside their comfort zone.

They're.

They're not afraid to work, work in places where they can't breathe. And it's a very small group of people because there's not a lot of surface area for that area to actually hold people, you know, so, yeah, I.

Tell people, like, if you're. I tell people if you're not living on the edge, you're just taking up space, because all the great stuff happens on the edge in the rarefied air when the. Where the air is thin and the line between brilliance and insanity becomes blurred. That's where all the great stuff happens. And it's like, you know, and some of these people like that, like, you know, Tony Shea from Zappos, I mean, he did great thing, great thing, great thing. Blew himself up in a meth house fire, you know, so. So it's like. I mean, it's like he. But he's out there on the edge, right? And he's just doing all these things. And, you know, that.

That line again, I think it's super important.

What's that?

The. The line you said about the break between insanity and.

I don't know what I said.

Oh, we'll just have to read between.

Brilliance and insanity is blurred out in the rare. Where the air is thin. That's a tweet. Yeah, that should be a tweet, but I mean.

I mean, that was good.

Well, thanks, man. Sometimes. Sometimes, you know, if you threw even, you know, you throw enough words out there, sometimes they get in the right Order. But, but I will say this too, and you know, before we leave it about these limiting beliefs is so when people get on, I'm going to challenge everybody out there that's listening. Next, next training, you go through whatever it is or class that you're in or seminar that you're taking or webinar that you're listening to. When you start, your body starts to hear something, your mind starts to hear something that makes you uncomfortable, you automatically default to thinking about something else that makes you more comfortable or you start to minimize the importance of what you're learning. This isn't really that important. Somebody else will do that. Let me think of, let me go back to. And just doodle on these other notes while they're finishing up this thing. Well, like that's a signal that you need to pay attention to that you're learned that you are uncomfortable with that. And basically your, your brain is saying you spend so much more energy when you're uncomfortable and you're learning new things, especially things that you, you don't like to learn.

You're.

If there's three learning styles, this isn't appealing to your learning style or this is not appealing to the, the things that you like to do. So basically your brain saying, I'm going to save the energy and I'm going to go over here and focus on things that I've proven good at. I'm going to think about past successes. I'm going to think about things that make me uncomfortable or that make me more comfortable. Like people need to stop and recognize that because then maybe somebody else needs to do that. And basically what you're doing is you're, you're arguing, you're arguing with yourself. So the point is if you constantly are arguing for your limitations, I'm not good enough to do this. You know, I can't. People like me don't get this opportunity. It probably won't work. Everybody's always doing it. And you're, and you're, you're constantly building that Minecraft wall around you and just putting yourself in this box. Then your decisions and your actions are putting you exactly where you want to be. Like we all are sitting today, basically based on the battle that we had with our self limiting beliefs and how we were able to conquer them. And if you continue to argue with your limitations, you get to keep them for the rest of your life.

It goes back to just, it really matters how you think. Right? Like the quality of your decisions determines the quality of your life.

100%. We're programmable machines, we're just programming.

I think we're all pretty fast moving forward and we like the opportunity to continue to think like we're moving forward and continue to grow. But sometimes it's beneficial to not turn it off, but set it to the side and take a break. Like live in the moment. I noticed, myself included, miss some of those opportunities because I don't take time to live in the moment. How do you take time to live in the moment now, since you've exited the business, might be a little bit easier, but during the heat of building a business.

Yeah, I mean, Deion Sanders spoke at our conference and he was a great speaker and he said one of the things that landed and people really resonated with. He said, be where your feet are. And that stuck with me. And so if I'm in a conversation with somebody and my, my brain starts running away to the next thing, I've gotten much better about just being present. There's a great book called the Present, by the way, if anybody needs help on that. Like, it's just, it's exactly what it is, is, it's a gift. But the gift that you give people by being present is incredible. And it's, it's, you know, it's not interrupting. And the funny thing is, is the deeper relationship we have people, the less considerate we are in listening to them. Well and all the way through. And, you know, I mean, my wife and I are constantly interrupting each other. It's like, did you even hear what I said? And I'm like, well, I was, I had moved on. So, I mean, I relate to that a lot. Yeah. Oh, you know her?

No, my, my wife. Like, my wife's always like, did you hear me? I'm like, well, yeah, like, I heard the first couple sentences. I got the main points. And now I'm like onto something else. And. Yeah, yeah. And then it gets me in trouble. And then. Yeah, yeah.

Well, I mean, I. So I. Can I share some relationship advice with you?

Yeah, please. I'm 25 years old and I need it. Yeah.

We've been together 35 years and, you know, we've married since 95. So here's, here's in a nutshell, right? Healthy conflict is important and you really want to avoid these big blow ups. So what I do, and it takes a lot of energy, is I do as many things I possibly can just a little bit wrong. And here's what I mean by that. We've done Starbucks 500 times, but I still text my daughter to ask what my wife gets. Now she knows, like, I know what she gets. Right. But now I've got my. I've got my daughter texting my wife. Then my wife's saying, does he even know me at all? And you've got this whole little thing. And they can't believe that I can't remember what her order is, or if I go to get ice cream, I know exactly what she wants, but I get something. And then with little flecks of chocolate in it. So doing lots and lots of things just a little bit wrong so that you have these little conflicts over time is. It heads off those. It diffuses this. The whole friction of the thing. It takes a lot of energy to be able to do that many things as I do slightly wrong all the time. And I, for one, think my wife appreciates the effort.

I love that. I've never heard that before.

I'm not sure I recommend it, but that's the way I do it. I go to the grocery store and I ask if she needs anything, and she texts me right. Right back. And then I get in the car and I call her and I say, I didn't see your text. And she says, I texted you right back. And I said, well, I didn't think to look at it. And she says, well, then why did you ask me? And I've got the stuff that you asked for in the front seat. And I said, it's not a problem. I'll go back in and get it. And then, you know, I wait five minutes and then I leave. And, you know, so it's. You've got to. You've got to create these opportunities. Right. Because if it wasn't for that, like, what would you even talk about?

You found the little. I don't know if you call it, like, dynamic or spark to keeps the relationship interesting. Because, you know, it's not something that's gonna jeopardize anything or anything that is unfaithful and in a wrong sense, but it's something that you guys bond over in a sense. So, like, kudos to you. I think that's important in a relationship, to know each other's habits and be able to work through those.

Yeah. And just a little bit wrong.

Yeah. Yeah.

All the time. You might not. Jake. Want to implement that right away. You might want to think about that.

But, yeah. Morgan, Jake's wife probably shouldn't listen to this episode.

I don't know if she does or not.

Do you get things slightly wrong, or are you perfect?

No, I definitely get things slightly wrong. But I'll. I'll argue that I do it on purpose. Yeah, I'll argue that I'll do it on purpose like you're doing.

You're not inattentive.

You.

It just shows how much I care.

Yeah. Yeah, exactly.

Yeah. It's.

She. She was a. She was a college swimmer, and so I think that that helps a lot, just knowing, you know, when you. If I don't know, I, I. I'm super thankful for her because, you know, like, she understands. Kind of like Rylan was talking about, like, the balance of work, but also being present at where you're at.

Yeah.

Which I think is super important to have a partner like that. Maybe you can speak to that of, you know, if you're not only talking about, you know, trying to find a wife or a husband or if you are trying to find a good friend or someone who you can rely on and build a company with, even a business partner. What are some key aspects you think are super important to have with relationships, and how does that tie back to values that we talked about at the beginning of the podcast?

Alignment is key, and I think some diversity, like, if you're. I mean, I'm no expert at this, obviously, but, you know, if, you know, observationally, when there's alignment around, you know, how decisions get made and you look at the. You look at the big things the same way, but then you also have interests that are complementary and diverse. You know, if. Because, you know, okay, if you look at. If you look at a marriage, it's basically, it's a big project, Right. You've got all of this stuff that needs to get done, and if everybody just wanted to, you know, you know, do the same stuff, and nobody wanted to do the other stuff or was willing to do the other stuff, now you've got a gap. Right. So for us, I can only speak for. For us, you know, the things that she wanted to do were exactly the things that I valued in her doing. Giving up a career, staying home, making sure that, you know, paying very close attention to the needs of the kids, you know, doing like, doing all of that stuff that, you know, was really, really important to me, but then also supporting me in my ability to go and build a business and to be able to provide. So, like, we. We had a pretty good vision around what family meant, and we also both valued our roles inside of that. So. So for us. For us, it worked. And. And it gets, you know, it. It's. It's work. It's work. I mean, Nothing's perfect. There's a, there's a lot to go through over the course of a lifetime. But I think, you know, I think we're constantly, you got to constantly work on yourself to be better for other people. Says there's a quote, you know, a person wrapped up in themselves makes a very small package. I mean, I think, you know, you could say. And I was having this conversation with a guy and I think he's got like a, he's building this, he's got like a 32,000 square foot house and he's building a 25,000 square footer out in Idaho and he's building all that. But he was very, he understood that without people in it, it was just a structure. So it doesn't, it doesn't matter. You know, like it's, it's really, you know, people are what make a house a home. People are, are what make, make a business, you know, an enterprise into, into a business, into a culture and into a thing. So, you know, it's doing the people piece well. Especially today, I was having this conversation with, I think it was the guy who started reputation.com. he, he was, he was on the podcast and it was really interesting that AI is, you know, so many of the skills that people did, like coding and maybe even marketing campaigns and a lot of this writing, you know, a lot of the more technical things like AI is able to do a lot of that now and more and more. So, so, you know, write me a computer program that does this. I mean, imagine that it used to be, you know, people, you know, on a ping pong table with eight computers working day and night to build something like that. And now it's, you know, and now it's, it's, hey, there's a tool that will build that for you. So the people piece. And doing the people piece well is going to be a really highly sought after skill, you know, more and more. So, you know, Google built their entire business on hiring creatives, brilliant creatives. If you read the book How Google Works, man, it was really, they tell you exactly what they're, who they built that company with. And creatives, you know, asking the right question is almost as important today as having the right answer. How do you phrase the question? What do you look at looking for like, what's the like? Because there are tools that will now give you the answers. And then of course, people that understand the human side of it, the human behavior side of it, the people piece of it, those are the people that have to put the Final touches on the stuff to really make it palatable for humans. So we'll see where this economy goes. I mean like, look, Nvidia. I mean people are voting with their dollars with Nvidia and Nvidia is creating AI chips and, and I mean all of that is accelerating, accelerating rate. It's going to be really interesting to see this next couple of years where how pervasive some of these new tools really change the way that we interact and the skills that are needed in the workplace. So I think that, so I don't think working on yourself, communication, leadership, being present, like all of those people skills, whether it's inside of a relationship, like a marriage or just in relationship with your co workers or people on the Internet, it's never going to go out of style.

Yeah, I, I even think just previously working as a software engineer, everything is an algorithm, especially like with social media. And so I think that, you know, a lot of people are blaming their feed for stuff that they get exposed to and it's like, no, bro, like you are putting the inputs into that. Like if you put good positivity and you're liking the right things and you're following the right people.

Yeah.

Like that your feed will reflect that. So it even just social media is like an input output equation too.

Yeah. So like the social. I had Fred Reichel down who's this week on the podcast. It'll be out in a month or so. But he, he was the founder of the Net Promoter Score. Are you guys familiar with that? So, yeah, a little bit. Yeah. So Net Promoter Score, basically the big question is, you know, would you recommend this business to a friend and family? Would a consumer come back, buy more and bring a friend? Like that's it. That's at the core of it. And he says that that is the metric at the top of the house. And we got in this conversation, he says the surveys get jaded or they get influenced because people know the answer that they want. So salespeople, technicians or whatever, they'll even influence a better answer. So it's not really an objective thing. But now with all the tools we have, we can actually measure consumer behavior. And I think that social media is the absolute purest environment of that. Right. Because no, you know, Facebook, Instagram, TikTok, they don't ask me, on a scale of 1 to 10, how much did you like? Like, you know, how much do you like that? They just measure your actual behaviors and then they just. So sharing something is bringing a friend. I shared this with somebody or I shared it with everybody that's bringing a friend. Coming back and watching more of the same is coming back and consuming again. So without the use of the survey, the social media people have figured out like, hey, you know, that's at the core of it, is, you know, do they consume more of this and do they bring friends? And, you know, that's, that's really kind of the purest form of it. And his argument is, is that businesses need to do the same. They need to stop asking the surveys and just actually measuring the actual behavior.

You're, you're measuring other people's time. Like, how are, how are you using your time if you're using it towards my business? You know, like, social media stats are literally a measurement of other people's time.

Yeah, yeah, I mentioned this 80 year old and he said something at this conference that I think everybody here should maybe think about a little bit. He said, I stopped watching TV five and a half years ago and I, I'm completely off of social media. We do it as a company, but I don't look at it and I don't do it because my attention is just being monetized by these companies. And I made a decision at 75 years old that I could do more with my attention than they could.

I like that.

And he's 75 and he's 80. Like, I mean, he's very successful.

Yeah, for him to recognize that is. Is pretty tough in itself, even for us. I think we try to minimize our consumption as much as possible, but there are some good aspects that come from social media. You know, you can, you can learn it. You can learn a ton. I mean, there's podcasts, there's posts, there's recordings, there's all sorts of learnings, teachings out there that can teach you something new that you might not have learned if you didn't look on there. But it's, make sure you have a set like, okay, I'm only going to view Instagram for 10 minutes today versus. Oh, shoot, now I'm monotonously just scrolling through feed, wasting time.

Yeah, well, doing what we do with these podcasts, it's. You've got to respond, you got to engage. You got to, you know, respond to comments and things like that. You want to see how it's going. I don't, you know, I don't think I'm in a position to not consume at this point. But to your point is, what am I really doing? You know, I'll, you know, I'll be an important. Doing something on my computer and, and the phone will buzz and the next thing I know, it's 10 minutes later and I answered the buzz, but now I've just wasted nine minutes on, you know, fishing videos or something. It's like, yeah, you know, which I love, you know, but they're, they're giving me what I want and, you know, and we've gone all over the place. I don't think I answered any of your questions you wanted to talk about today, but that's fine. People don't know what they don't get. Yeah.

We covered plenty of ground and I think it was all beneficial no matter what avenue we took.

Yeah, I was going to say that the tough part is you have so many life experiences that we can just talk for hours. And so at some point we just got to wrap it up. But I think maybe going off of that to wrap this up. What are you working on now as far as it seems like the Duden Group and you guys have really focused on media recently. A couple books, like you have the Home Front podcast and then so maybe just give people like an overall look at what your goals are the next couple years and what you guys are working on now and then how people can find you and get more in contact with you.

Yeah. So all about franchising for on the business side, what we're building here, I'm a partner in a business called Beam Light Sauna, which is an infrared sauna concept. Really fast growing. So, you know, that's a, that provides a lot of health aspects. Saunas are very popular. Everybody's talking about them. And if you can't afford or don't have the space for one, you know, we have a really, really nicely appointed environment for people to go in and have one. So. And then Home Front Brands is our property service platform. I mean, property services are the most durable sector, I think, in franchising. And there's going to be a hundred more million, 100 million more people in this country in 25 years. There's already a housing shortage. Homes aren't built like they used to. People are migrating around. Less people are doing this type of work. So real big opportunity to create a generational business inside of property services. So we've got five current brands inside of Homefront brands that we acquired in 21 and 22. We launched to the market in 23, one of the fastest growing franchise platforms in the North America. I don't really have all the stats on everybody, but I mean, we've, we've gotten after it and done a really, really good job. Incredible franchise partners out there. So my job inside of that was we, we really recruited a super top global type executive team to run the business. And you know, my main job is to just, you know, beat the drums and spread the word and you know, build the credibility of Homefront Brands, the platform behind the brand name, introduce us to consumers. So the home front, on the Home Front podcast is something, it's not franchise focused although we've had five or six franchise guests on there. But we've had Robert Irvine, this Mission Impossible we've had or the Dinner Impossible Celebrity Chef we've had Andrew Zimmern from Bizarre Foods, we've had Vern Harnish, we've had Chris Vaughan boss, the hostage negotiator, Kara golden, the founder, Hint Water Stacy Madison, Stacy's Pita chips. And so we're, we've got, and the guests are getting bigger and bigger and bigger and you know, more, more notorious as we go. So people are really consuming the content. I mean we're 3 to 500,000 downloads a month now and we just, we're not even a year into it. So that's been a, that's been a big way to like get our message out and to let people understand how we think about business. And, and it's valuable because if you're considering joining a franchise it's, I mean it's a 10 year agreement with two five year renewals that's longer than the average marriage in this country. So it's, it's a big deal and people need to do their homework. They need to get comfortable that with the, not only the leadership and, and the people at the home office, but also who's in the community, who are the franchisees? You know, is that a kind of group group that is going to hold you accountable to, to do better and you know, challenge you? And we're a radically transparent organization. So everybody sees everybody's numbers and you know, it's, it's very high touch, high engagement, highly collaborative, highly transparent franchise organization and we're very excited about what we're doing there. We think these are essential services. People need these things. You know, we work in hospitals, we work in institutions, we, we work in homes. So you know, we're really providing valuable services that people are going to need forever and ever and ever. So that's a big part of what we're doing is, you know, that's my day job is Homefront Brands.

Love it. That's awesome.

If people can reach out to you in any way, or if you think they're wanting to learn from you, how could they reach out to you if so they find you?

Yeah. So always homefront brands.com, you can get to the on the Homefront Front podcast there, and you can also look at our brands. You can reach out to us there. You can reach out to me personally and connect with me on LinkedIn. Just Jeff Duden is great. I have a big network there, and it's probably my preferred platform in terms of engaging through direct messaging and stuff like that. We have Instagram. You can follow us on Instagram Homefront Brands or on the Home front podcast or just Jeff Duden. Either way. And obviously we have. We have our Facebook stuff. I do have a private group on Facebook called Navigating Entrepreneurship with Jeff Duden. So people, once a month, I get there for 90 minutes, sometimes bring a guest or whatever. So if people want to, you know, get on a call with me for 90 minutes a month, they can go to face the Facebook group Navigating Entrepreneurship with Jeff Duden there. Or if you're interested in, you know, joining a franchise, you know, and want to learn more about that, just go to homefrontbrands.com fill out a form, and we will get back to you right away. And if you do want a free copy of Discernment, you can get one online. By the way, thank you guys for actually reading the book. You clearly went through it. And I tell you, I've had a lot of people, especially in your age demographic, that like, it has really helped inform their thinking about a few things. I mean, they call me and they're like, I highlighted. I highlighted like a hundred things in there, and that's what it was for. I mean, at the end of the day, you know, it's not this great, thoughtful read. It's just these experiences shared and then what I learned and what it could mean for you, I mean, it's not, you know, I mean, my kids use it to shore up the Christmas tree. You know, like, that's any they. Anytime there's anything wobbly or. Or, you know, soak up water, Kool Aid, whatever it is, I mean, that's how they use it. But other people can make good use of it. So if. If you want to get a free copy of the book, you know, I think you go to my Instagram, go to my link tree, and it cost you your email address and your name, but you can actually get an electronic copy for free dropped right in your email, sent right back to you and then we will email you incessantly until you unsubscribe.

I highly recommend people checking out that book, especially our audience, because even just you read the subtitle of the book, it's the Business Athletes Regimen for a Great Life through Better Decisions. And so you know, if you listen to this episode and you got a lot of value of what Jeff has offered, like this book is just value packed of basically everything that we just talked about times 10. So and it's really not that long. Like I think even I listened to it on an audiobook and it was like just over four hours and so it's super easy to consume it, I would say.

So yeah, it, it has a good aspect where it's not a carry on story and it hits you with hardline punches that are truthful, you know, real beneficial takeaways. And Jake and I both learned a lot from it.

Appreciate that very much and it's been an absolute pleasure to get to know you guys this morning and beyond with you and I'm just thankful for the opportunity.

Yeah, same to you. We appreciate your time and hope you have a great through Friday.

Michelle.