Pat Combs | On the Homefront with Jeff Dudan #38

Welcome everybody to the home front with Jeff Duden. And today we have Pat Combs, former MLB pitcher, business person, and US Olympic gold medalist, 1998, 1988. Welcome, Pat.

Hey, Jeff. Thank you, man. Thanks for having me. What a pleasure to be on with you today.

Yeah, you see what I did there? I tried to give you 10 years.

You did. I appreciate that. With all his gray hair.

Hey, look, we look good. We look fine for guys in our mid-50s, right?

So.

Well, anyway, excited to have you on today. I've enjoyed speaking with you earlier and I'm really looking forward to digging into so much about youth sports, Youth athletics, faith, business, all of the things. I know this is going to be a rich conversation. I know. I'm looking forward to it. Pat, would you start by taking us back and sharing a little bit about how you grew up?

Yeah, Jeff, be delighted. You know, I grew up in the Houston area and suburbs of Houston and had a great childhood. My mom was divorced early in her life, moved down to Houston with her parents and so we grew up in that environment until she got remarried when I was about 8 years old and so had a really good stepdad that came in, adopted us as his own and so took on his name. But yeah, just great, great childhood. It was really, I think, focused and surrounded on, on a couple of things, sports and school and both of those I took, you know, great pride and pleasure in trying to be the best in both those avenues. And it grew up in, in the southwest part of Houston and obviously had some, some, you know, athletic talent that led to getting a full ride scholarship in baseball, first to Rice University, then into Baylor. But yeah, I mean, Jeff, my, my whole goal in life was to make it in sports and so, you know, whatever sport it was in season, that's what I was playing. And, and then along the way, you know, didn't have a, a lot of money growing up. So if I wanted to buy a new sports equipment or baseball cards, which was my passion at that time, I, I, I had to go earn it. So I started a lawn mowing business when I was 12 years old and by the time I graduated from high school, I had about 30 yards and, and some great clients and made enough money to buy plenty of baseball cards and buy my first car. So that was, that was my goal growing up. But yeah, great childhood and a couple of great parents and glad my, my dad stepped in my life when he did, you know, just brought some discipline and focus. He was a former military guy and so it really helped me become More disciplined and focused as a kid.

How did you first get introduced to baseball?

Yeah, it was almost a mistake. I would say my grandfather who was really trying to guide my life at that point as a 6, 7, 8 year old, you know, he knew I had a passion for sports and but I wasn't playing anything organized at that time and, and he just said, hey, I'm going to take you down and sign you up for the local Little League. This was when I was the spring of my eighth year. And so he did that and, and that kind of launched me into playing organized sports. I had not done it up to that point, so played Little League there in the southwest part of Houston and, and then eventually grew into playing youth football and youth basketball. But yeah, baseball was always my passion and just early on had some talent but of course being left handed didn't start pitching until I was 10. So kind of quickly discovered I could, I could throw the ball over the plate, which at that age and that's the most important thing. Can you throw strikes or not? So but I just fell in love with baseball and my uncle who played a big part of my life at that time was big baseball fan, loved the Boston Red Sox and he was a card collector and so you know, he would sit down with me and share his baseball card collection and he had some different baseball board games he played and so just always had an interest in the sport and certainly early on had some success.

I have a nephew who's a freshman at NC State and he's a right handed pitcher and he's touching 97 right now. And I can tell you from the time he was 2 years old, I, he had a live arm. Was that an ex? Was that, did you have one as well? Because I, he just, you know, all the other kids and, and cousins, you know, would throw the ball but when he threw it, it just, there was a timing to it or something that was just natural inside of him where he could generate that and, and he wouldn't. He never put the ball down. He was constantly wanting to play catch and, and now he's pitching, doing very well with it. Was that the same for you?

Yeah, I think very similar story. Yeah. And you know, you mentioned that you sometimes can see something different even in young, young players and certainly you and I have coached youth sports a lot. We can see that, you know, there's something there, you know. And so yeah, I had had trouble sometimes with my friends not wanting to play catch with me because I, I just would throw it hard and I Sometimes didn't realize I was throwing it that hard.

Right.

So I had to, had to be careful at times. But, but yeah, I think there was definitely something there. And then of course, like your, your nephew, you know, you've got to nurture that along and learn all the proper mechanics and how to take care of your arm and do all the right things, you know, to try to nurture that, that gift. And I call it a gift, Jeff, because, you know, you, you've seen players who just have this talent and you go, okay, well that, that's not normal, you know, and so that I've always recognized that was, from my perspective, was a gift from God. I just needed to, to be a good steward of that.

You grew up, you didn't have a lot of resources. How did you get the training and the coaching that you needed to refine your talent?

Yeah, thank God for great Little League coaches, right?

Right. Yeah.

I mean, that's what we had back in the day. I didn't, you know, you didn't have specialized trainers or, you know, pitching coaches or hitting coaches, which is, you know, I do that for kids today and I have parents who want to pay me to do that. But yeah, none of that existed back when I played. And so, you know, I'm so thankful for coaches that, you know, played such an important role in my life. Just Fred Burns, my little league coach, you know, Smitty McKenzie, my high school coach. I mean, those were two coaches that kind of stand out to me that just took an interest and saw that I had some talent and, you know, did their best to try to help me develop that. And. Yeah, so none of the specialization that we see today, I mean, I, I work with some players today, Jeff, that, you know, they've got a nutrition coach, they've got a strength and conditioning coach. Their whole day is mapped out with these specialized coaches. And you know, I didn't have a sports psychologist either back then. So it's just, hey, you took your licks if you, if you lost, you, you know, figured out how to fight through adversity and, and then you celebrated successes and, you know, just kept going. But that's, that's what we did back then.

What's your view of that? And you know, my experience as a, I was a two sport athlete, you were a three sport athlete. And giving some diversity to the kids to be able to play multiple sports, especially when they're young, I think is important so that they can try different things and be well rounded. At what age today do you see Kids having to make a choice and specialize to remain competitive.

Yeah, I definitely saw it with my three sons who, when they got to high school here in South Lake Carroll, which is kind of a powerhouse for football and baseball here in North Texas, but they were asked to pick a sport their freshman year coming in, which I thought wasn't fair. All three had good talent in multiple sports. My oldest son ended up picking ice hockey. That was his best sport and he, he did great with it, went on to college and played collegiately. My middle son and younger son were both good at baseball and football and even were pretty decent basketball players. But they were kind of forced by their freshman, sophomore years to funnel into one sport. It did hurt my middle son because he stuck with football and baseball all the way up to his senior year and probably could have been a starter in high school as a junior, but, but the baseball coach didn't like the football players coming in, you know, at spring after football season. So yeah, Jeff, the game has changed in that way, I think quite a bit. And we already see, I think, you know, kind of makes me think about the, the Earl woods, you know, Tigers dad, the way he handled Tiger with golf. And I think that kind of set off maybe, I don't know if it, if it began with, with that, with, with Earl saying, hey, my son's going to be this pro Golfer at age 2 and everything he does going to be surrounded by golf and, and he won't play any other sports because he doesn't want it to interfere with golf. I don't know if that was the catalyst or not, but we're certainly seeing that specialization of sport at a younger and younger age. You know, I've got a, I've got a nephew now that's, that's age seven years old and, and he's playing baseball year round. And I had a conversation with his mom and my sister and his, and his dad and I just said, hey guys, that's, that's not, that's not healthy. You know, you need to have him play some other sports and the other sports will help him in baseball. I know baseball is his passion, but certainly he needs to rest. As a seven year old he was, you know, he played, just got done playing his 110th game as a 7 year old. My going now that's kind of insane to me. So they do have him entered in another sport here. He's taking some time off, away from baseball now. But yeah, that story is what I'm hearing more and more of and I think There's, God, there's got to be some, some risks and acute injuries developing, especially at such a young age.

Well, the repetitive injuries of pitching year round. And I think you even see some statistics for the more southern climates where people do play baseball year round. They have higher incidence of certain elbow injuries and things like that. Where the kids up north, they just, you know, they just don't play as much.

Right. Yeah, I think you're seeing that Dr. James Andrews in Birmingham has got some white papers on that. Just. Yeah. Allowing the kids growth plates to have rest and grow. And you're talking about that repetitive injury, especially with pitchers, no doubt. But even with other sports where they're, you know, you think about the torque that is created during a baseball swing or a golf swing, you know, and just, yeah, you got to give the body a rest and get away from that particular sport for at least a couple of months. I mean, look, if the major leaguers are doing it, you know, they have a three to four month offseason now, they're training, they're doing some strength and conditioning training, but they're typically a pitcher is going to not throw a baseball for a couple of months in that off season. So if the major league players are doing it, certainly you got to think, you know, your, your own child at age 7 to 15 should not be playing year round.

Yeah. Mentally as well. I was a. Primarily a basketball player my whole life and then I came to football late as a junior in high school. But basketball players make great receivers. Like they, they've handled that basketball and dribbled and I mean, they can catch anything with one hand. And from that perspective and also too, from footwork and, you know, staying low, all of the functional things that a basketball player needs to do really translate well to the football field. And you know, I would say though that it probably doesn't go the other way because the fine skills of basketball players aren't necessarily trained from playing football. I think it's, it's, I think it's interesting that way. I, I look at basketball players and, and when I think about just, you know, all of the sports, of course, baseball is very, very specific skills. I mean, you can't, I mean, there, there's, there's timing and there's just certain coordination that like you said, it's different. You could just, it just looks different when you see the kid that has the stuff to play and they don't even, there's not, you know, they just have that raw talent. Right, right. But, but I think you know, the diversity of. Of those experiences, different coaches being on different teams with different kids. I just think it's all the way healthy. And as we all want our kids to do as well or better than we did, and we see other people regrading their kids, moving them from one school to another. That was something that never happened growing up. Regrading kids to move them to another school so that they could have another year to train and be more competitive. We see that all the time now in our area here in the Carolinas, all of these things. And parents just want to give their kids the best competitive advantage that they can with their peers, their cohort that they're competing with.

Yeah, yeah, Jeff, and a lot of great points there. And I think the main one really resonates with me is, you know, as parents, are we. Are we creating our kid for the path? Are we trying to create the path for our kid? You know, the old helicopter parent or lawnmower parent who's trying to remove those obstacles for their kids to be successful? And I think there's no greater danger in youth athletics today than parents who over parent in that way. And, and it's really detrimental to the kids. You know, you talk about the, the mental side of the game, and yeah, we can focus on all the physical traits that it requires to make it to various levels, you know, and talk about the statistics of how, how thin it gets when you. Even when you get to high school. You know, making a high school team at a large school in a metropolitan area, I mean, that's. That's difficult. And then you go on to college level and the herd gets thinned even more. But the thing I go back to, Jeff, is that, you know, if we're not allowing our kids to face adversity and to fail and to learn through that, the mental development, it never happens. And so that's the worst thing we can do as a parent is try to create an easier path for our kids. And like I tell parents today that, you know, hire me to work with their kids and giving them pitching lessons. I'm saying, man, let. Let them. Let them play on competitive teams where they're going to. They're going to struggle because they're going to learn to overcome. They're going to learn how to make better pitches. And, and that's the mental side of the game. They have to develop if they're going to play at a higher level. And if they melt down every time that there's, you know, a competitive issue or, or, you know, they don't agree with an umpire, an official, and then you step in to guard them or to protect them in some way. So that's the biggest disservice you can ever do for your kid. They're not going to develop. And if you wanted to play at a high level, you've got to allow them to experience those crash and burns and let them figure out how to work through that.

One of the challenges that kids today face is oftentimes, not exclusively, of course, socioeconomic conditions put aside, but too many good options and not having enough hard choices to make. I'm forced into this choice. I have to do this, and I've got to find a way to succeed within this construct. Because what happens is the parents will just move the kid. They'll move the kid to another team. They'll move the kid, they'll try to get the coach replaced. They'll do anything they can to create the conditions where their kids can have the easiest path to get to where they perceive they would like to see the kid get to. And it's not good. You're not building, you know, you're not sharpening iron there. And I guess you have to run the risk of really pulling the net out from underneath the high wire and saying if they do fall from here, they could get hurt. It's. It might not. They might not make the team. And then they're going to have to figure out a way if they really want to participate in this sport, they're going to have to find a way to get better, have to work over the summer. They're going to have to, you know, get a little bit faster. They're going to have to do whatever it is they need to do. I. I have three children also. I got two boys. I have a girl in the middle age 25, 22, and 19. And, you know, our. One, we. We had some core philosophies, but one of mine was the age of accountability is 14. And I've taught you everything that I can teach you by then in terms of what's right and what's wrong. And now you have to bear the consequences of your decisions going forward.

Yeah.

And it's kind of like reverse psychology, right, because you're moving off and you're really loose bit. But you couldn't blink on it. You had to make sure that if that's what you said, then that's what you did. And not that we would get them the lessons they needed. We had soccer. I mean, we had lacrosse. I mean, we would get them all of the training that they needed, but they had to ask for it. I mean, they didn't. You know, they had to. They had to be a willing participant. It wasn't us dragging them. If we had to drag them, then we wouldn't, you know, they had to want to do it. And, and, you know, and two of them, they weren't all sporty in the same way. I mean, they. Athletics mattered differently to the different kids, and they used it differently, which, which was fine. And I think it allowed them to all find their unique paths in life and be authentic to who they wanted to be versus who we wanted them to be.

Yeah. Yeah, great, great points, Jeff. And yeah, I mean, that's some, some great teaching right there for, for parents, right? You know, let the kids suffer those consequences, especially if they make poor choices. And we certainly experienced some of that, you know, especially with our younger son. He. He made a terrible mistake in high school and suffered the consequence of that. But eventually, you know, know, he ended up making it to professional baseball. But he looks back at that moment in his life and says, boy, it could have gone a lot different direction had. Had we allowed to cover up for that mistake. But, yeah, and I think you're right, too, that for the kids to have skin in the game, I think is always the key. And I told our boys early on, I said, guys, you know, we're going to pay for 50% of your. Your college. Now, if you earn scholarships or you work and make up for. For the deficit, that's up to you if you don't want to take out any school debt. But I felt it was important for them going into college that they needed to have skin in the game. And it certainly benefited us. I mean, it benefited our family. The boys all came out with very minimal debt. They worked their butts off to, you know, make up the gap even as they were playing sports. And. And then they earned scholarships along the way to help pay for their 50%. So they all did it right. And, you know, we were. I think they're. They've experienced the blessings of that, knowing that. That they, they were accountable and that they had to make good choices, Especially when they got to college, they couldn't just blow things off because they were responsible for at least half of it. And then the motivation for them to, to, you know, come up with the, with the money or the, or the scholarship, it really drove them and motivated them to. To do well in that environment. So we're. Yeah, I think, Jeff, you made some great points there, but our Kids have to have some skin in the game. If they're not showing effort, even as in youth sports, if they're not showing effort towards that particular sport, then why in the world do we force them to keep at it? Right? They've got to come with the energy and the want to. We can't supply that.

And while we're at it, I'm going to make my second and final parenting point. While we're here, I'm going to say, always tell your kids the truth. I just. I look across my friend group growing up, I look across our peer group raising kids, and there would be parents that would constantly, you know, maybe lies, a bit of a harsh word, but they would not tell them, not be truthful with them. Oh, well, you didn't make the team because those are the older kids or those are the bigger girls or whatever it is, or something as simple as, you know, I'm a pet. A pet dying, you know, like, just. It ran away. I'm sure it'll come back. Why don't you guys make some signs?

We'll put them up.

I knew the wife ran him over with the car, but, you know. Yeah, yeah. I mean, so, like, they would. They would know that they could come, like, when something was going on and if it wasn't clear that they could get me in the car and they could say what happened and I would tell them the absolute truth about whatever it was. They need to know that we're broken, too. They need to know that we make mistakes, that we're not. That we're not. Just because we're a parent to you doesn't mean that we don't have failings and. And that. That, you know, face the same struggles that they're going to face. And what happens is, if your kids know that you lie to them, then they will never trust you when you tell them something. And then I think in. In addition to that, they won't share things with you because you. You're not. You haven't been candid with them. And by the way, they know exactly when you're lying, like, all the time. And it can be a little thing. So these little moments we have with our kids, to be truthful, when either it doesn't matter, when you think it might not matter, is really fundamental to establishing this. I mean, this kind of real world view of risk and reward and failure and all of those things. And it's subtle, but I have found it to be significant.

Yeah, Jeff, that's such a huge point, man. I'm Glad you are talking about that. And I think that is, to me it's priority at least top three priorities as a parent. And you think about this, how many truth tellers do our kids really have in their lives? Usually their friends are going to blow smoke and tell them what they want to hear. They probably get that a lot at school, especially in athletics. A lot of coaches will just prop kids up these days just trying to help their, their self esteem. And it's just, it's not good, it's not healthy. And you're exactly right. We've got to be truth tellers. And I will say this too. I'm a recovering teller. My kids were young. I remember trying to tell them everything, right? Tell them how to do life, tell them how to do this. And what I found out as I got older, I had to make a shift in my parenting from a teller to asking better questions. And I, I can tell you, Jeff, my, I think my boys, all three of them would tell you that, that I became really good at that because I practiced it, I practiced it on them. I, you know, after games, a typical conversation would be, hey, Connor, tell me, tell me how you felt about your performance today. You know, what, what could you have done better? You know, what do you want to celebrate? What did you do right today? Right. And so we would, we would have those conversations. I didn't want it. They, they knew about their performance or what they did in the game. I didn't need to tell them anything. But I certainly wanted to ask those questions to see where they were coming from and what they wanted to focus on. And, and then they would ask me questions back. And that, that became a great conversation. And so I think my, my sons would tell you the same thing today. You know, dad, can you, can you quit asking us the tough questions? I said, well, that, that's what makes the conversation great. Right. I want to know, you know, what are your thoughts? You know, what are you looking forward to? What are, what are some of the things you have to overcome to get goals? And you know, tell me about that. I, I use that phrase all the time. Tell me more about that. So yeah, Jeff, I think that's, that's such a key, you know, to be a truth teller to our kids because they, they just are not surrounded with that a lot these days when they.

Ask to start asking you questions back for feedback that know, you would know that that strategy worked.

Yeah, we're winning, we're winning at that.

Point when they seek your advice and they don't Just get away from you, because they think you're going to just start telling them how they need to live their life. I really applaud that. Pat. Pat, I've read your book more Than the Score. I've enjoyed it very much. There's a through line in it that has to do with farming. Can you tell us a little bit about the book?

Yeah. So take you back to 2019. I was with a friend of mine, Cal Van, single, up at his family farm in Grant, Michigan.

And.

I hadn't spent a lot of time on farms. I grew up in the suburbs and cities. And so when I was out there with Cal, I had this idea about writing this book. But as we were taking the tour of his farm, it kind of like the laws of harvesting kind of jumped out at me, you know, sowing and reaping. And of course, there's biblical context there of, you know, what you plant, what you water, what you fertilize, Obviously you'll attain the fruit or the harvest at the end of that time. And I thought, wow, that's such a great analogy. When we think about raising our kids, we're given these little bundles of this gift when they're birthed, and then you've got to water them and nurture them and feed them and help them grow right. And the harvest at the end of the day is, what do we. We get on the back end, you know, when they become young women and young men, you know, what is that going to look like? And if we haven't sowed well, Jeff, I thought, gosh, we're going to have a tough time reaping well when our kids are adults. And so I just kind of thought. I thought that's a great analogy for the book and for parenting as a whole.

The book makes a case about what is the real purpose of youth sports and what's the benefit. What are you planning? And can you share a little bit about the good in youth sports and what you would hope to get out of it for your children?

Yeah, I think it makes me think of that old Simon Sinek, you know, concept of why. What's your why? You know what? Why are you doing this? Why do you have your kids playing in new sports? And in the why? To me, that perspective is paramount. You know, if we go into it thinking we're trying to create this next major leaguer or next professional player, and that's the entirely wrong perspective. You know, we ought to look at sport as a platform for the why of my kids are going to learn about character and team building and. And, you know, the. All the. The virtues that come with competing. Well, and. And, you know, the. The discipline it takes to become good at a sport. You know, the. The hard work, the. The ethic that goes along with that. I mean, so all the things that we think about that we want our kids to turn out to be as adults, we find it on a sports field. And I don't think there's any greater place in terms of creating those team characteristics of what it's like to sacrifice for others so that it could benefit the team. And all those things we see that happen on the sports fields today, those are the things that we should be focused on. What are my kids learning? What are they. What are they achieving through hard work and effort and bringing a great attitude to practices that they can help lead others and model those right behaviors? Those are the things that I focused on, Jeff. I thought if we win and they win championships and they get to celebrate great seasons, then that's just icing. All the things that they had to do to get up to that point, and all the things they had to learn and grow and improve on, those were the things I knew were going to have a greater effect that they could carry on for the rest of their lives. And I've certainly seen that now as young adults, that all the things that they learned in sport, they are now applying in their. In their business lives and their family lives. And so there's just so many benefits of having our kids involved in sport. But again, it always comes down to, you know, leadership. You know, who are we placing our kids under in terms of a. Of a coach or a parental leader, you know, and do they have the right behaviors that we want modeled to our kids? And so that's another place we can talk about, Jeff, that, you know, is if the organizations or the coaches that we're putting our kids under the authority of, if all they're focused on is winning and winning these plastic trophies on the weekends and making a name for themselves in youth sports. And I tell parents, run, that's not the person you want your kids playing for, because they're making the game about them. And I want. I want the coaches and the kids that I. The people I surround my kids with. I want them to have the same virtues and character that I want them to learn. So if they're not seeing that model, how they gonna. How are they gonna learn? So I think that's another really key, important point. When we enter into the. Into the why of why we're doing. What we're doing in youth sports is to make sure you ask yourself the question, is this the, is this a leader or person I want my kids to Learn from?

In 2015, I was wrapping up my coaching book. I had coached over 30 seasons of my kids athletics, football, baseball, basketball, a little bit of soccer, whatever they wanted to do. And I would always raise my hand and say that I'll coach it. And I wrote the book because at the end of it, I was building a national franchise brand the same time I was doing this youth coaching. And I found the similarities between the two just incredible. So you're, you're, you're teaching franchise owners to start a business and build a small team of 5 to 10 people and how to build an intentional culture and how to communicate and, you know, how to, how to set the ground rules for what was going to be accepted, not accepted, how to set them up for success, all of that. When somebody gives you a group of 10 to 12 year olds for four months, it's the same. And I just, the similarities between the two were incredible. And I was wrapping up the book and I was in an executive group with a bunch of other executives locally. And the facilitator asked a question other than a family member, an immediate family member, who has made the greatest impact in your life and why? And as we went around the room, at least 80% of these executives went back to their youth, to a coach that they had who either believed in them or invested in them or just said something to them that they had never forgotten. And coach is one of the biggest honors that someone can bestow upon you. That title. As a matter of fact, the working copy of the book. I'll share this story. The working copy of the book was called the Popsicle Plan because we coached a youth football team. And it was like, you know, we play hard, we play fast, we play loose, we play for each other, and we eat popsicles on Thursday. That was it. Like, it was it. So, I mean, but it was part of the plan was, yeah, we, we wanted a unique culture, we wanted unique stories, we wanted unique language. And that's part of building a unique culture. And we would do that intentionally. And then I was at a benefit for, I was at a military benefit. It was put on by a Bank of America. And an executive has asked me to come. And after the lunch and we all made our tithes and donations to the charity, I was walking out and I heard somebody yell, hey, Coach. And the book. And it was Coach Joe Gibbs. And Joe, we went to the same Christian high school, South Lake Christian, and there was a football league there that we coached in, and he coached his grandkids and I coached, you know, my kids and our team, and we would play against each other. And just the. There was a jamboree before the season where you have a little scrimmage with everybody, and they were killing everybody. They had great players who. All the, all the great players wanted to be on Coach Gibbs. You know, I'm sure coaches, they all, you know, they. Oh, we have to carpool together. Right. That's just the way it is. Um, so they. So. And a couple of our kids were out, so they. They slaughtered us in this jamboree. I mean, they scored, you know, seven out of 10 times that they had the ball, and. And we couldn't do anything. So, you know, just basic fundamentals. Right. Well, what are we going to do? We have to play them next week? Well, we're going to take away. First thing we're going to do is we're going to take away what they want to do the most. So we spent all week and we put four little corners out there, rotating around, and we taught them how to jam these receivers to knock their timing off. So I said, we're not going to let them complete these down the field. Like they were just throwing bombs, right?

Yeah.

So we're going to do that and we're going to, you know, we're going to. We're going to have our kids back and, you know, they had a good back, so we're going to stop speed before it gets started. So we. We were disciplined in keeping everything kind of. Kind of in the middle, and we were just going to hang on as best we could. Well, it went a little better than expected in the first half, and we jumped up on them 14 to nothing. We really hit them in the mouth like they didn't expect it, so we kind of had them back on their heels. But this is Coach Gibbs, and at halftime, if there's anybody that's going to make halftime adjustments, right, it's going to be a Hall of Fame coach. So the second half was all them, and it was. It was. It ended up being 14 to 13. There's about a minute left in the game. We're backed up on our own 11 yard line, and it's 4th and 4. And if we punt it, their kids, they're going to run this thing in. I just know it. You just, you know, first of all, we're going to punt the thing 20 yards. Second of all, we're not going to, we're not going to tackle them, you know, but we had put a play in called freeze tap where the quarter, everybody just stays still and the quarterback taps the center and they hands the ball to him and he just walks through the line and nobody moves, right? So we put that play in, we ran the play, we got the first down, we ran the clock out. And it was some later in the season, they had won every other game and ESPN was out there and they were filming him coaching the kids and, and they had said, well, wait a minute, Coach, you lost a game. How did you lose a game? And he said, we got out coached, right? And it's, and it is on my, I have it, it is on my wall of my office with a little highlighter. I've got it. But, but anyway, so when, when, when I was walking out of the, the charity and he, and I just heard from behind, that's the biggest honor that somebody can give you is, is coach. And, and I know that with how you, I see kids now all the time that over the years that we coached and I maybe don't even recognize them because they were 12 and now they're 22 or whatever, but I'll still hear it. Hey, Coach. Coach Duden. And it's, it is the, it is the greatest thing that anybody can ever say to you. So sorry to go long into that story, but I love telling it and.

Great story. Yeah.

And so, so you coached, it seemed you coached in, in various sports, not just baseball with your kids. Did you have a coaching philosophy or some fundamentals that you went into those situations with that were important to you?

Yeah, Jeff, without a doubt. I mean, I, I, I love that story, by the way. And I've had a chance to meet Joe Gibbs and what a legend, you know, not just because he was a winning coach, but just the character that man, the faith he had. I mean, loved his players, you know, like his own family. And years ago I had the great benefit of meeting a gentleman named Joe Ehrman and Joe wrote a book or book was written about a season of life.

I met Joe. Yeah, yeah, that's a great all time favorite.

And I, and I met Joe and we, we had a chance to talk multiple occasions and you know, I adopted his, his philosophy in that question, that key question. And I, I use this with every team that I coach, Jeff, and I still do. And I teach my players. I said, guys, what's my job? My job is to love you. And they'll Respond in unison. Coach, your job is to love us. And I say, what's your job? And they'll say, to love each other. And I. I think that's the philosophy, Jeff, that. That has driven me to want to love kids. Well, you know, how do I do that as a coach? How do I love these kids? Well. Well, I've got to care for them. I've got to empathize with them. I have to challenge them. I have to help them to overcome obstacles that maybe they don't see about themselves. And so if I'm loving them, well, those things will play out naturally. And so that's always been my philosophy. And in loving, well also means sometimes you got to be tough, right? You got to help them recognize when they mess up and how do we improve this? And. But I've also recognized, too, that, you know, great coaches don't have to yell and scream and curse. In fact, the best coaches I've ever been around are the ones who don't do that. They really cause their players to think and to grow and overcome and put the. Put challenges in front of them where they have to. To strive to be better. And so that, to me, is. Has been my philosophy. And for me, you know, and I have. I've coached a lot of different sports, but winning is always secondary. That's my goal. My goal is to win. I want to win, but it's always secondary to the role that I have in that player's life. And so what's really cool, Jeff, and I know you've experienced this, and you'll experience more now that your kids are older as well. But I can't tell you how many wedding invitations, how many baby announcements we get from my former players. It's just. Oh, man, you talk about the blessings of life. That's it. To see these kids grow up and become great citizens and great husbands and dads. I mean, that's what it's all about for me.

It is. It's. It's so powerful. And I mean, we. So in my. In my hey, Coach book, I've got three basic. I got little tomes, like, you know, little tablets, right? And one is player rules, the second one is coaching commitments, and then the third one is parental expectations, and each one has about seven little bullet points of three or four words. And that's kind of the rules of the road, and we would establish that right up front. I mean, if you're a parent, I want every single parent the opportunity to participate. And I don't care if you're a timekeeper or a play counter or special teams, you know, coach or whatever it is, I will teach you what to do, but I want you to participate because all the good work that coaches do can be undone on a car ride home by a disinvolved parent that's asking the kid questions that are them centric versus team centric. And, you know, so getting people involved and giving them part of an opportunity. And then the other thing, like the very last player rule is we will all be the best day, the best that we can be on the last day of the season, whenever that is. So now if you've. If you've done well and you've honored this process, then a lot of times you're playing in the championship, but not. Not always, and that's okay. So you're, you know, it's this continuous improvement. We want to play fast, we want to play loose, we want to play happy. We want to play for one another. And we're all going to be the best parents, coaches and players. We're all going to be the best we can be on the last day of the season. And fundamentally, that was the approach. And then there was an element of accountability to it where we would put everything in. I was never stuck on an offense or a defense. I'd look at what we had, and I do what I think we could do with the players that suited the players the best. And. But we would put everything in early. But we would just drill. Like, every position had five to seven key fundamentals, and once they got into a position, they would just work on those five to seven key fundamentals every single day. So we would lose a game or two early in the season.

But what would happen is you move.

Into the middle of the season and they would.

We'd start.

It would all start to come. The next thing you know, it would. Everything would start really working well together. And it's like, oh, okay, you know, and then. And then, you know, you might drop a game or two early. Now you're. Now you're getting, you know, very competitive and, and we didn't really play the whole recruiting game and all that. So a lot of times we might not have, you know, all the best players or the fastest or the biggest players. We always had a few. Right. And then the last. The third of the season, our goal would be to turn it over to the kids, really, because what's best for the kids is for them to really understand that it was up to them. That. So, you know, what would it look like? Well, our warmups would look like a college warmup. You know, we had taught the kids, like if they're linebackers, how to trade pass drops or you know, if they're, if they're linemen, they would work on some hand techniques or they would do whatever, but it wasn't, you know, get in the line and do push ups. It was more, you know, you know.

How to warm up.

You've been taught how to warm up. You know, let's get warmed up and then we get over here and, and do it that way. And the, the idea was if all the coaches got stuck in traffic and could not make it to the last game of the season, that you could do it yourself.

You.

That, that wouldn't make a bit of difference and you were accountable to be able to, to self manage. And you know, so it's kind of, again, it's that, it's, it's that reverse almost of giving them a lot of autonomy, freedom within a framework, to be able to have autonomy, but to really take true ownership of that and of the relationships that they had with one another out on the field. And man, it just worked every single time. You have to break clicks early in the season because you got the returning players and there's only one football and they all want it. And then you got some parents that said, well, my kid's been at quarterback camp all summer. And you know, so. So you have to create some parity and some opportunity for people to compete for the position. But once, once you decided where things were, then, you know, then everybody had to, had to buy into the fact that they were, Their role was important and you know, everybody needed to do it. So it was, you know, I, I have more positive memories from those kids and those experiences. I mean, it was all I thought about all week and you know, probably unhealthy amount of time spent game planning and all of that kind of stuff. And then, and then for the coaches, right. You know, one of the things that we always said to the coaches is you have to coach them all and don't just coach your kid like it was. You got to coach them all, catch them doing something right, be consistent, and then, you know, respect one. We have to respect each other as a staff. Like we're united front here and all of that. So, you know, that was. So when I wrote the book, it was really to say like, okay, how, how do, how do I take everything that I've Learned over this 10 years of coaching and give it to somebody else so that they could Replicate that, that method. So, and, and oddly enough, I use baseball. It's a baseball fable. It just fits better. It just, it just fit better. You know, I don't know why. It, it just fit better. So, Anyway, so in 1988, you were on the US Olympic team and you won a gold medal. What was Pat combs like in 1988?

Oh, man. Well, I'm glad not a whole lot of people knew me back then as they know me today. I was, I was tough, man, I was a tough guy to play with. I, you know, I, I think one of the things that drove me, it just high expectations, always had high expectations of myself, you know, my teammates. And like I talk about a lot Jeff, these days with, with corporate executives, Corp, I call them corporate athletes. You know, our, our strengths, our behavioral strengths can turn into constraints when we overuse them. And so I would say there was a lot of behaviors where I had some extremes going on where I would overuse certain behaviors that made me successful on the field but would be overplayed at times and turn into constraint. And I think my Olympic teammates would tell you that, you know, I was just so driven to win at that time in my life. And, and when, you know, if I made mistakes, I'd beat myself up. If my teammates made mistakes, I would let them have it. And so, you know, the good, the good part about that is you've got guys that are, that are driven to success and they're going to figure out ways to overcome and win. But then it can become detrimental, obviously, in the, in the dugout, in the clubhouse sometimes. And so I, I wasn't as well liked at that, at that time in my life. But it was just that, you know, that over exceeding, just drive to win. I'll tell you that, that Olympic experience, that baseball experience, USA team experience. I was on the USA team for two summers. Wow, what an incredible experience. I'll never forget when we were playing some exhibition games up in the Northeast and The late Tug McGraw was a speaker at one of the dinners and we were playing the Taiwanese team the next night. But his challenge to us was one of the greatest challenges. I'll never forget his speech of what it means to be an American, what it means to wear the USA across your chest and to represent this country. And the responsibility, the weight of that, you know, what, what you guys need to do as a team to prove that we are the best country in the world at the game of baseball. And man, it just so drove me and stuck with me. Not just, I'LL never forget the feelings I got. Just, it kind of hit me the perspective of, wow, I really am. I'm representing my country. It's not about me. It's about putting the USA on and playing for, for this great country. And so, yeah, that was a tremendous experience and, you know, still maintain relationships with a number of those players. It was just such a special group of guys that we had a, I had the great opportunity to play with and some great, obviously guys that went on and had great major league careers as well. But yeah, those are, those are some days I'll never forget.

Where was the 88 Olympics?

So that was in Seoul, Korea that year.

Okay, that's what I thought. That's what I thought. How long were you over there?

Yeah, so, so I didn't get a chance to play in Seoul. So when we, we played the world championships in Italy.

Okay.

And then the roster had to get trimmed to 20 and we were at 22. And so I became an alternate at that moment. So I didn't get to actually compete in the Olympic Games, but was part of that, that team. And of course, we all got to celebrate when we came back, but it was just an incredible, incredible experience. And I know, you know, that just watching that final game, watching Jim Abbott, you know, beat Japan and yeah, of course, going into that tournament, you know, it was still an exhibition year. So 84 and 88 were, were the two exhibition years for baseball being introduced as a new sport. And the, we were not expected to win because at that time the US Maintained amateur status for players. And so we, you know, you couldn't use professional players if you played for the American teams, but all the other teams around the world could use their professional players. And so we were, we were not thought of even to place a medal. I think the best that they were hoping for was bronze. And for us to win the gold that year, beat a Japan team, which was an incredible team, you know, full of their major league roster type players and just an incredible moment. But yeah, great, great experience.

Yeah, like, like the 80 hockey team.

Yeah, yeah, it really, it was, it was likened to that team. I, you know, I wouldn't say maybe quite on the same level as the US Beating the Russians, but certainly, you know, we had, yeah, the Cubans, the Japanese, the, the Koreans. I mean, all, all great amateur teams at that time because of the, the ability that they could use their, their pro players. And so we were typically playing rosters that were average age of 27, 28 years old. Something like what you would See here like an all star team here in the U.S.

Pat, let's move to what you're doing today. So you are with a group called Teamalytics, which is a company that focus on building elite teams. A lot of services in there, but really, you know, looks like high performance, high gain coaching, advising, consulting practices. So I'd love to hear a little bit about that. And, and then, and then maybe I see you have Combs Capital Partners. I'm not sure exactly what that is, but I'd love to hear a little bit about, you know, how you're using your experiences as a professional athlete and coach and leveraging that to help business athletes perform better today.

Yeah, well, that's, that's always been a passion of mine, I think, going back to my days with the, with the Philadelphia Phillies. You know, we had one of those teams that incredibly talented in the early 90s and you know, multiple all star type players. I mean, we had built a roster from coming up from being in last place to first place in just a couple of years. And so it was fun to be a part of that team and the rise up to playing in a World series in i3. But the, the bad part of that story is going back, looking back, was the behaviors of that team and the lack of leadership around what became really counterproductive behavior. That I felt like, Jeff, we could have been the Atlanta braves in the 90s. We definitely had the same talent as the Braves, but the Braves just did things differently from a leadership perspective, from a behavioral perspective, holding each other accountable. We, we didn't have that. And, and it quickly fell apart and it was really sad to see, I mean, with that accumulation of talent and we all know how hard it is to win in business. You know, you can have the smartest, brightest people in the world, but if you can't get them to work together and remove those counterproductive behaviors that great teams do, you know, you, you're just not going to get there. And so that's what I saw happen. And so I always had a passion to, to try to discover and figure out how do we, how do we overcome that? And to me, everything rises and falls on leadership, you know, and leaders are doing the right things, modeling the right things. We've got a much greater chance of success, especially if they're attuned to behaviorally what's going on within their teams, you know, and so what I've seen in business my last 30 years, and I had a great opportunity to grow a wealth management business at Morgan Stanley we pulled out of Morgan in 2016, opened up our own shop. So that's Combs Capital Partners was birthed in 2020 with my middle son. And so he runs that day to day on the wealth management. And of course, I still am involved with him on strategy and business development. But the team analytics side of my life is really focused on how do we help. Well, we use behavioral analytics and coaching to help remove the obstacles that are holding leaders and teams back. And so what I often find is it's not the strengths that, you know that, I mean, when you think about our behavioral strengths, we usually. That's natural. We play to those strengths naturally. We don't need anybody to tell us what those are. But oftentimes in leadership, because if we're not getting good feedback or we're not open to asking for feedback, we sometimes miss the constraint side or the counterproductive behavior side. And so that's where we come in and really help leaders identify, you know, what behaviorally is holding you and your team back. And how do we help eliminate those issues so that you guys can optimize and outperform your competition? And so we do that now with over 100 companies. We have Fortune 500s on down to businesses that are doing 5 to 10 million, you know, and we work with a lot of private equity companies as well. When they make an acquisition, we'll go in and work with those, those leadership teams and, and then help those acquiring companies come together. But yeah, it's a lot of fun. I mean, we, we have a great assessment that we use. It's a 360 behavioral assessment. And when I first took that, that assessment, Jeff, I had a, the leader of the company, gentleman named Flip, Flippen of all names. But Flip is a great leader. And he took me through my data and pointed out a couple of areas I needed to grow. And I, I remember saying to Flip, I don't agree with that. I don't think I need to grow those areas. I feel like I'm pretty strong in those areas. He said, well, he goes, today's your lucky day because you got five or six people that say that that's an area you need to focus on.

Was your wife. Did they ask your wife?

Exactly right. And she did one as well. Yeah, that pointed out some additional data I needed to work on. But that was the beauty of being able to go through that myself and thinking for the first time in my life, I had somebody pointing out some things that I didn't realize were that big of an issue. But they were certainly holding me back. And when I got on a growth plan to grow through that and saw the benefits that I had, it changed me as a person. It changed me as a leader, a business leader. Certainly my family will tell you I changed going through that process, and it just transformed me as a leader and a person. So I love to give back and I love to take other leaders through that process, and it's extremely beneficial.

Well, I applaud that because what I found, as I've gotten older and phased through my career, I really have to find new ways to stay curious about things. And at some point, as people age, man, I'm sure it's. You just, you're just done thinking about new stuff. And I'm like, I've developed my models of thought. This is my view of the world. I can tell if somebody's going to be in my circle or outside of my circle. And, you know, I'm just going to keep running the same play that I've been playing because it's got me here. Well, you know what? That's okay. That's okay. But it's also a trap if you, if you really want to continue to live a life of inspiration and determination and influence because the world changes around us and we have to be open to feedback. I love to say that feedback is the breakfast of champions. And, yep, you need to consume it every morning to the extent that you can. And as you get into positions where we're company leaders, maybe the feedback, honest feedback's a little bit harder to get. It's, you know, you can have a lot of friends. You know, when you're, when you're writing all the checks, when you're signing the, you know, the front side of the check. That's right.

That's right.

It's. But you really, we really need unfiltered feedback to continue to really stretch ourselves and, and to grow. So there's, there's always going to be a need for the services that Teamalytics provides inside of that, because you're. Especially, as you mentioned in the acquisition situation, you know, you might have seven seats for 12 executives. And, you know, picking. Picking the seven that are going to work well together is as important as, I mean, if you, if you pick the wrong seven and everybody's fighting now, you've delayed your growth of that organization, the Health and Wellness, for a year until you can get that figured out. So I think being, being the ability to be extrospective, meaning look at your, you know, it's very Difficult for us to look at ourselves objectively from the outside. You know, we. To your point, hey, I'm fine. Pat's fine. Oh, well, not according to these people, right? Exactly, exactly, you're fine.

That was the greatest feedback and gift I could have received, you know, and, and it set me on a far different course than the one I was on.

And so.

You're exactly right, Jeff. And you know, you made some. Another great point is oftentimes leaders don't recognize that, you know, unless you go back to that truth teller comment, right, Unless you have truth tellers around you that are not afraid to speak up and say what you need to hear, not what you want to hear, that's oftentimes where leaders get caught. And so, yeah, whether it's a newly formed team or a team that gets stuck, or even high performing teams that say, hey, we, we just want to get better. How do we improve from here? You know, what, what are some constraint areas or things we should be looking at that are, could possibly hold us back or, you know, potentially hold us back? So yeah, I think it's a great process for any leader, any team to go through. And there is, there's revelation. And then obviously the most important thing is not just the, the information, the revelation you get, but what do you do with it? You know, how do you, how do you practically put it to work where you can make some changes and some improvements. And you know, Jeff, we're not talking about overhauls, we're talking about little tweaks. You know, what, what can you say differently or how can you ask this question differently? Or, you know, how do you, how do you help this, this key leader on your team grow through this particular area? You know, one, one quick example, I was talking to a leader yesterday and he said, man, I've, I've got this great, great leader and everybody loves him, but he just doesn't step up and hold people accountable. And, and I said, well, I said, where do you see that, Dan? He goes, oh, I know exactly where it is. You showed me on the, on the behavioral profile. It's low criticality. He just doesn't hold people accountable, doesn't step up and ask him the tough questions. And, and he just, he hates conflict. And so how do we help that leader to grow in that area? Well, when he does grow, and I've seen this multiple times, when he grows that area, it'll transform that team. And so that's where we get better business results and better production and performance. And look, people are worth their Salt, they want to grow, they want to get better. You've got to be able to step up and point it out to them, but in a winsome way. And like you talk about an influential way, you know, not hammering people.

Pat, it's clear in your book and in your walk that faith has played a very important part in your life. What role has it played in helping you become who you are today, and how has it helped you calm the swirl in those times of your life where you needed some peace?

Yeah, well, I think people who knew me before I came to faith in Jesus Christ, they would tell you that I'm a far different person today than I was before that. And so it's totally transformed me that just not only making that decision, but then trying to walk that out and follow Jesus in the way that he lived his life. And so, you know, my. My wife would be probably the best person to ask, but she would tell you that, you know, I'm just far different today in terms of how. How I love people, how I. How I treat people. I still want to win. I still want to do well. I mean, all the things that drove me as a young person to get to the major league still drives me today. It's just in the way that I do it. It's so, so different, you know, and so that biblical foundation and just my daily habits of spending time alone with God in the morning, that's how I start every morning. You know, I read the Bible, I. I pray. I have a prayer list of people that need prayer and, you know, groups and teams. The people I work with. I mean, it's just, to me, it's a great privilege to be able to do life with people in that way, and whether they're, whether they believe the same as me or not. I tell people all the time who don't have the same faith that I do that I'm going to pray for them and do the best I can for them and be the best representative of. Of God that I can be. And the good news is, Jeff, is that I'm still a work in progress and I still mess it up. I still say stupid things, but, gosh, I'm so grateful for God's grace in my life because, boy, do I need an abundance of that every day just to make it through the day. But that is. That's the foundation of who I am. And, you know, I just am walking it out every day. And in a. In a personal relationship with Christ, it's. I don't ever consider myself. I'VE never considered myself a religious person. I don't try to just do traditional things and be religious, but I do have some daily disciplines of just spending time with God and seeking him and seeking his power and just asking the, you know, at times even the Holy Spirit to speak through me. Because there's times when I don't even know what to say or how to say it, but that's how I try to walk it out.

The compound interest of doing 10% less of the things that we shouldn't and 10% more of the things that we should moves mountains over a lifetime.

Amen.

That last question today, if you had one sentence to make an impact in someone's life, a go to for you, what would that be?

One sentence, I think it goes back to what I said earlier, is that I want to love people well. And I think that's what I would say is if you're a client, if you're a friend, if you're part of my family, my goal is to love you well. And I want to know how to do that and how to best serve you in doing that. But that's my goal.

Awesome. Thank you. Pat, how can people reach out to you if they're interested in your services with teamalytics or talking with you getting the book, any of those things? Is there a place that people should reach out to?

Yeah. Thank you, Jeff. And man, what an honor. What a pleasure it's been to be with you today. Yeah, I feel like you and I need to get together. I could talk hours with you and just listen to your stories. I love it. It's been such an honor and a pleasure for me to be with you. Yeah. So if they want to order a book, they can go through any of the major booksellers. Amazon, that does have my contact information as well, but I'd be glad to give you. My mobile number is 8 3. And please reach out text call. My personal email is p. Combs. So p c o m b s21hotmail.com. So if you're an emailer, please feel free to reach out to me. I love these conversations, Jeff. I'm glad to do it with anybody who reaches out.

Awesome. It's been a pleasure. I've really enjoyed our time together. Pat Combs, thank you for being on the home front.

Thank you, Jeff. Blessings to you.

Same.