Pricing, Self-Worth & the Trades: Why Most Service Businesses Stay Broke with Ellen Rohr #220

Welcome, everybody, to the Unemployable podcast. I'm Jeff Duden. If you got your start in the plumbing industry by marrying a plumber named Hot Rod and joining him after the death of his partner to clean up the books. If you learn from mentors how to implement business planning, pricing, and financial literacy. And became the president of Benjamin Franklin Plumbing and the co founder of the fast growing drain cleaning franchise Zoom Drain. And today is helping service titan build their business. In the trades, your name can only be the incredible Ellen Roar. Welcome.

Hey, that's a great intro. There you go.

I've been doing this for 40 years.

It is. I've been doing this for 40 years. But those are the key points. So that was lovely. Thank you.

You're. You're easy to find and fun to follow.

Well, the way I found you, I think is funny too. I was at the. The event in West Palm beach for the college. What's that called?

Titus.

Titus. Okay. The Titus foundation does a lot with young people trying to find their way into franchising. It's such a great event. And I'm watching you speak and I am texting my friend Howard Partridge. I got to introduce you to this guy. His name is Jeff Duden. And of course, Howard says, oh, we know each other. We're partnering on a couple projects. And I'm like, of course. So, yeah, right away, I couldn't wait to introduce you to my circle because I knew you were something special. So I am so happy to be here.

Well, I had. When I watched you up there speak, I had the same feeling. I said, I have to meet this human. I have to meet her.

Well, we have a river that runs through us. Right? That. That is the same, and that's helping people and then just absolutely being in love with the trades and home services. And we're in a good place right now.

It's been very good to us.

Yeah.

I have a question for you. What is the one thing a service business can do to give them the best lift and make the biggest impact in their results? Something that you find small businesses are not typically paying attention to.

Keep in mind that there is an expression to the man with a hammer, everything is a nail. So I'm always looking at life through this particular filter, but I stand by what I'm about to say and that there's no operational fix to being underpriced. You can't cut your way to financial freedom. You can't become so extremely efficient that you make money. Chances are, with the prices you have today, it's not going to cut it. Now, there are some people who are adequately priced, but overall, that's not what I find. What I find is people trying to make stone soup. You know, they're not paying themselves, they're not paying their partners. They got their kids working for free. They keep promising their team members this big win at the end of a very long and dark highway. And it really has to do with the short end of the stick. Always comes on the owner and the team members, and the customer gets away with a price that is not reasonable. Is what I find over and over.

As a cause for underpricing. Is it lack of confidence or lack of training in selling? Is it thinking that they wouldn't get the job at a higher price and they have to be competitive? Is it too much focus on what the competition's doing and not enough focus on adding value to a customer and stacking the value? What are the drivers that cause people to underprice or is it just lack of education?

I would say check, check, check to everything you just said. Although my mentor, Frank BL, who I think is narrowing in on 100 years old right now.

Wow.

Still kicking, still bossing me and all of his proteges around. But Frank B.L. said the number one cause of, of the problems in our industry is a lack of self esteem. We are improving along these lines, but we have a long way to go. So when I say that, like, imagine two kids in high school and someone's going to wear a white shirt and a tie, and the other guy's going to wear a patch that says my name, and right there, there becomes this divide that the ones who are going to wear the collar and the tie are somehow better than. And the kid with the patch is going to be looked down upon and even by his own self. So one of the things that I try and do, like, you know, you get on the podcast and you share the smart things you do, but I wish, even as I say it, I wish I did this so much more. But I'm going to share it with you because then, you know, more people may, may pick this up. But we do drain cleaning, okay? We clear drains. We deal in. Oh, sorry. But, you know, that's. That's what we. That's what we're working. And I use the royal we because I am so grateful for the guys who are holding the guys and gals are holding the, the cables and the jets and doing the work. But if I see a young person on our team, they're new and I'll ask them. You know, did you tell your mom you're going to be clear clearing drains? Yep. Was she excited about that? Nope. Okay, well, tell your mom this. That drain cleaners have prevented more disease than doctors will ever cure. That you are the essential service that plumbing has been, you know, maybe the second oldest profession in the world, keeping good water from bad water so that people don't die of those diseases. 70% of the world right now has inadequate sanitation, and 30% of the world poops on the ground. And then they die as a result of those diseases born from those environments. And that's what you're helping to prevent. And not only that, you're going to make a lot of money. You could make over 100 grand. You got your own cool truck. Get to work with your hands, because apparently you like to do that. There's a lot of autonomy and independence. Every day is different. You're not in a cubicle. You may never be in a cubicle your whole life, which, which could be pretty cool. You won't have college debt because we're going to pay you to learn this skill that you can use in any country on the planet to get a good job today.

Sign me up. And I, I. You just sold me on this job, Jen. I quit.

Jen. I quit.

Quit this. I quit. I'm. I'm going to work for Zoom Drain.

Well, and if you're paying attention, we're also going to teach you how to run your own business so that you could do that if you want. Maybe you could be a franchisee. Maybe you could start your own thing. But don't we have the right to do that? Isn't that one of the odds?

Everyone has to start somewhere. And the autonomy of running a truck. Think about it. You're going to the customer's house, you're doing sales, you're doing pricing, you're managing job cost. You're creating a. You're, you're, you're creating a contract. You are executing a service. And then you're doing the marketing follow up. You're asking for a review. You're checking in on nearby. Now you're doing these types of things. You're running your own business. And it's a short step from getting reps on that, getting paid over a hundred thousand dollars a year to get reps on that to, to doing, to leveraging that somewhere else. Look, our lives are nothing but compound interest on our activities and our behaviors. So everything that we do should build. You could tweet that. That's new. I never said that.

But did you? I mean, that's.

Now let's just. And sometimes things fall out. Fall out of the face that aren't teeth. But look, and you've been on a lot of construction sites and you're president of Ben. Like we've all been on construction sites. So I want to go back to self esteem since we're off the rails just a little bit. Which is the most arrogant trade. You might not want to answer that in your role at service titan, but I have an opinion. I know you have an opinion. Do you not?

Oh, I do. Do you have one too?

Oh, I have. I have a strong opinion based on 25 years of experience in construction sites.

Well, I could, I could go. I'm not gonna. I'm not gonna go to like designers and engineers and those guys. I'm going to talk about the trades that like. Like the people who are putting in the actual mechanical equipment, etc. Fair enough. Okay. So you know who already wins the game.

But 100. Get out of my way. Yeah, I'm going first. You work around me.

It's H Vac. Do you think so?

I think they think so.

But I'll tell you, here's why. And I don't, I don't. I like them for it. Back in the day, and you're too young for this, back in the day, in the late 1990s, there was a movement where H Vac companies went public. Like, if you are old enough to remember this. And this was the first time I thought, wait a minute, there's like wealth in these companies. Like I'm. I want to know about it. Like, that sparked me. But Jim Abrams, John Young, Leland Smith, Ron Smith, these guys, they were the granddaddies of these moves and there's so many others. But they saw the potential of the trades way before a lot of folks did. So what they started doing was raising their prices and improving their marketing and their sales techniques. And I think they did everybody a favor because they started to elevate the trades in a way that then the plumbing, you know, the plumbing community get. Well, wait a minute. We could do that too. You know that the rest of us have been following suit, but there's definitely some trades who are poverty based and should not be. You know, that the self esteem thing really, it really depends on people leading the way. You know, you can't be something you can't see. So, you know, women in the industry are really exciting. We are still so underrepresented, but once you see someone like Carrie Kelsh or Katie Higgins, some friends of mine who are growing these massive, you know, deca, million dollar companies and more. Then you start to think, oh, wow, this is not just a fallback, this is the game. Yeah. Were you going to say the same thing? What were you going to say? And why did you ask the question?

So when it comes to mechanical H vac, it's probably the cleanest. They have to have more. If they're doing controls, they probably have an elevated level of training. There's more science around it in terms of zoning and conditioning and how all that works and the different pressures that you have. You know, how much, how much air can you push through this size duct? So there's design that goes into that and similar to electrical, but electrical is kind of the same thing over and over and over again. Right? But it's, there's, you got to be, when you're doing electrical, it has to be right. You've got to understand the amperage and all those kinds of things. But it is very much the same thing over again. There's less design inside of an electrical system versus an H vac system, probably. There's less variation in the skills that you have to have and the capabilities that are important. And then plumbing's look, hey, as long as it's going downhill, right, we then.

Well, we're electricians and plumbers who are really savvy, have leveraged those basic skill sets in some ways. But the essential, beautiful, basic skill sets are with fixtures. You know, how then we get into the design world. You know, what are the, the things that we can do now? I like drain cleaning for the reasons you just mentioned too. It's essential, it's beautiful and it's so much simpler. You don't have. If that faucet's slightly crooked, you own it. If there's a ding on the water heater, which no one's going to see, you got to replace it. You know, there's a lot more, there's a lot more to it in terms of the parts on the truck. What I love about drain cleaning and this is just, you know, if you're consider considering the trades, these micro niches are really sexy because you can scale and get someone who's never done them before up to speed in short order. You know, we power wash the insides of the drains. I love power washing and gutters and some of these micro niches that if you own them really well, landscape maintenance, I'm telling you what you could clean up. There are landscapers who like to do installation, but finding a great maintenance team to care for those beautiful installations on the, on the daily or weekly.

This.

This game is wide open. This game is wide open. You know what a really cool underserved niche is? I'm a, I'm a drain girl. Like I love. That's my favorite. However, my husband, Hot Rod is a guru in the hydronics world. So that's warm floors and radiators and thermal solar and it's really making water warm and then moving the water. If you combine that with, with H Vac, there are very few contractors that do that. That's a high end niche business that could be incredibly lucrative. Just saying.

If you're thinking about it and very effective. You go to vacation out in Breckenridge, Colorado, like we do, and it's zero degrees outside and you walk into the house and it's warm. It's because all the heating is in, the floors are warm, the walls are. Everything is warm and your feet are warm. And it, it's much easier to maintain temperature like that in extreme environments versus just forced air.

Yeah. And the combo can be so good because, I mean you still need to move air for humidification or dehumidification or for air conditioning. But there, and there's controls, like you said before, there's expensive components and it is not a homeowner idea. Like this is not a homeowner thing. You know, you need an expert on the job. Now that's a different, that's like more of like a chef driven restaurant where drain cleaning or a lot of franchises and I love this are Morton's. You got a kid back there cooking steaks on a, on a procedure and that's why they can scale Morton's. It's not, it doesn't need a chef right where, you know, but that depends on what you want. I think if you're listening to Unemployable, which is the best name ever for a podcast, you know, you're, you're maybe mulling about, well, what niche would appeal to me. I think another thing I've learned and, and this. Let me, let me know your thoughts on this. When we go to seminar and we look at the guys on stage, I sometimes see people in the audience thinking, I want to be that guy. And Jeff, you didn't get where you are wanting to be anybody else. You want it to be the best version of you right now. You can learn from mentors, but one of my encouragements is to remind folks that no one's Senior to you in terms of what you want. Like, you pull all this information through your filter and then you decide, yes, a guru or a consultant or a group may stretch you and put you out of your comfort zone, but it shouldn't cause you to lose who you are and in any way ask you to compromise your integrity or what you know is true or what you want to do. What. What do you think about that? Because don't you see that too? Where people just. I'm not like that. He's like that. And somehow you abdicate your dreams.

It's. It's critical if you want to be happy, because comparison is the thief of joy. And I believe that envy is the enemy of enlightenment. If you spend your time wishing you were somebody else, wondering why they've. Why they're five years younger than you and their business is twice as big as yours, you know, make excuses for why. Maybe, maybe their parents helped them to get in that business. Maybe it was a family business. Maybe he got lucky or she got lucky or whatever it is. Now you're sitting here spending all of your energy in a negative way when what you need to be doing is going up and walking up to that person and saying, hey, my name is Jeff. This is what I do. I've got a business that does this. I'm really impressed with what you've done. What experience can you share with me for somebody where I'm at? And I don't care if they're 10 or 20 years younger than me. I mean, so Tommy Mello's 42.

He's a pup.

And, you know, he's a monster in terms of what he's building and in the way that he operates. And I look to him, and I'm 57, but I look to Tommy to pick up clothes, clues on how to be a better operator. And I'm not ashamed about it one bit.

Nope, nope. I love that. Another thing that. And. And. And Tommy and I are going to Australia this week. We've got a Service Titan presentation, and Tommy, he's the headliner at the Australia Experience coming up on Monday, which is. I'm super excited about, but Tommy and. And Ken Goodrich and I did a podcast. It was great. And, you know, Ken. Ken is. Everybody's younger than me, but Ken is more of my compatriot. And then we have Tommy, who's just a. A kid, and I've known him a long time, maybe 15 years, and just love them both, but what they were talking about, and I think you'll Relate to this too. If you do ask, if you come up to Jeff and you say, hey, you know, this is what I've got going on. How did you do it? And suppose then you're moved to give this person one tip. You know what? One thing I did that was really great is like in my case, it'll be, you know, figure out your numbers, it's your money, become a better financial steward, and you're going to have to raise your prices. Are you down with that? Because if so, things are going to get easier for you. So let's, let's role play this a little bit. If I said to you, what's one thing I started a power washing business and what's one mistake I could avoid or one tip you might give me today, just share with me one of your, your go tos, Jeff.

Think bigger. You will only, you will only accomplish a subset of the bold vision that you cast for yourself and your business. So if you don't think big enough, you're going to be making decisions against too, too low of a ceiling. So if, gun to your head, okay, what's your plan for next year? How much do you want to do next year? And okay, how many, how many trucks? Go ahead.

Okay, I was thinking like a million.

Okay, gun to your head, something you care deeply about, you've got to do twice as much in half the time. What decisions would you make against that? And then I would, then I would give them some tools. I would give them a, I would give them a tool where I would explain to them that they need to understand, they need to set a minimal limit of dollars per hour that they're willing to accept for their time. So for example, if I wanted to make $100 an hour, there are a million things that I could do to make a hundred dollars an hour and make $200,000 a year. I could be a realtor, I could go sell cars. I could start a pressure, whatever I want to do. If I want to make $500 an hour or a million dollars a year, my options become much narrower and the things that I have to say no to become much greater. So that increases your focus. And a lack of focus will always lead to a lack of greatness. So you got to have tools that are going to improve your ability to focus on the, on only the opportunities that matter. That's where Warren Buffett said, hey, I, I assume that in my life I'm only going to get to make 20 investments my entire life, so I can't make a Bad one. So I'm going to, I'm going to set huge guardrails and parameters around intolerances for what I'm willing to invest my, my time, my energy and my money in. And it should be the same for every business owner. And once they and I and look in that number, it could be what you're going to sell your business for that you might not, Ellen, have even been thinking about selling your business. But I do think that's part of the equation because when you're building a business to sell, then you're going to build it to scale and you're going to think deeply about. When I sell this business, they can't buy me as well. So what are the systems and processes and people that I. So now they're just thinking differently about their business. So at the bottom line is my best advice to you is find a bigger room. Because if you want to build a million dollar business next year and that's where you're at, you should always be hanging around with people that represent who you want to be in not this phase of your life, but your next phase of your life. So until I got in, until I got into ypo, I mean I ran a business, I built a business for 25 years and it was a great business. And we were national franchise. Before that we were national and international disaster response, government contractor. Like we did a nice job with that business. It served all my needs. I never had to do anything else I could have. I, I was fine before I even franchised the business. It a very valuable business and it was providing for us very well. But then I get into this YPO young president's organization and I realized that I'm the only one in there that hadn't sold a business. So now I started thinking, well, what if I did sell my business? What would that mean for me? Now I'm thinking differently. Well, I could probably get it sold. I started thinking at 47. I said, well I could probably get it sold by 50 if I make the right changes. I start to skinny it up. I get, you know, I hire a president so that I don't have to go with the deal, hire investment banker. You know, it's probably going to take a couple of years. But if I start working backwards from the future of having all my equity cashed out, whatever, I don't decide to roll back at 50, I don't know what I'm going to do. But I know that now my set of options is going to be much broader. And that thinking would not have. I wouldn't have the courage to have that thinking. And I knock out in a room consistently with other people who had the experiences of doing that not once, but many times over. So I could see what it looked like on the other side. So, you know, that was a lot of little things. But I think at the end of the day, you've got to, you've got to, you've got to speak a bold future. That's. And it's got to be bigger. And then you need to, whenever you decide what that looks like, you got to go find a room where people that have lived that experience are in it that you can engage with.

Okay. There, there's a lot in there. And I'm so glad that this is a podcast that you can listen to again and again, because that was amaz. So if I were the person in that room that you shared that with, this is, this is something that Tommy and Ken pointed out. How much would you love it if that same person came up to you six months from now and said, I took what you said to heart. I put a business plan together with a version 1, version 2, and version 3, and version 3 is ginormous. I joined this group and I wasn't sure I had the money to do it or the time or the whatever. And I also said no to a business venture that a friend of mine was trying to get me involved in that just didn't line up. And it was scary and I was hoping would still be friends afterwards, but it wasn't. I mean, how would you feel when they report back? Isn't that the best?

It's incredible. It's why we're here. And then, and, and that makes you.

Want to help that guy some more.

That's right. And we get better. I found that I make the biggest leaps and improvements when I'm teaching.

Yeah.

Because I'm really considering who am I to stand in front of this room and tell this group of brand new franchise owners that they need to do all of these things and be this type of leader and have this type of accountability and this type of discipline. And then I go back to my office and I don't do it. It's, you know, it, it's really you, you. If you're going to preach it, you better practice it. And, and you're also stretching yourself when you are, when you're, when you're teaching and you're like, you know, I, I've been teaching the same thing for a year now. But my thinking's Evolved on this. It's really about maybe ambition and capabilities and, you know, and. And people's obligation. Ellen, you keep. You keep one upping and everything that you've done is something equal to or bigger than what you've done before. What is your thinking that that causes you to continue to push yourself and to continue to set a bigger goal for yourself. Leverage the compound interest on your activities, behaviors, and decisions. Like, how do you leverage that into this relationship? Helping service titan. Now you're traveling all over the world helping them grow their business. I'm sure that that's very lucrative, beneficial, and rewarding for you in all the ways that matter. What is it about you that has caused you to go from, you know, getting into hot rods business, negotiating to do the books, and then immediately seeking out mentors and education and knowledge, transforming not only his business, but then you leaving to start all of these other business and still married, Right?

One foot on the banana peel all the time. However, Hot Rod and I have been married for 41 years.

Wow.

So, you know, I think my encouragement is to develop self. Self awareness. So again, what is it that I really want to do? You know, what happened in the early days is I want. This is so embarrassing to say, but I wanted Hot Rod to be different. Like, okay, hey, honey, we could make this business. This, this, and this. We could do this. And then Hot Rod just has always been someone who doesn't do anything he doesn't want to do. Just no. And I wanted him to be different. Now where's that going? Like, how many times we wanted our kids to be different so we make this suggestion 1000 times. They heard you or your team members or like the. A friend of mine from AA once said, you know, Ellie, stick inside your hula hoop. Stay inside your hula hoop. There's plenty to work on right there. So what I think saves a lot of time and heartache. And I'm. I'm not saying I don't relapse on this, because I do. But what saves a lot of time and heartache is to quit fussing about things you can't control, which is the past. Like, the point of power is now. Like, if that same person came up to you six months from now and told you why they can't grow their business because their mom does their bookkeeping and campfire his mom. Like, I am up to here with that. I don't even want to talk to that guy anymore. You go figure some things out. But anything I told you already was like water off a Duck, you don't need me right now, right? I'm here when you're ready. But like I'm too old to waste time with shame, blame, you know, excuses like I don't care about those conversations like that. And I know like you got to go through stuff, have a therapist. I'm not your therapist. Like I take, I do therapy, but I'm not going to burden you with that, you know what I mean? Like there's, there's relationships in your life that can be useful in this journey to self awareness. But as someone who can help you with your business, I'm going to count on you to show, show up with some self awareness of your own. So work on that. And that means like discovering things like what I really, really want to do. And Those are like 40 days and 40 nights moments. @ the end of this trip to Australia, I'm going to New Zealand all by myself for three days to talk to no one and look at beautiful things and hike. And that's going to be a moment for me to reflect on. Okay, now what, what do I want to do next? And Jeff for me. And you're probably here too, I'm guessing. But let me know how this lands with you. It isn't about accumulation of wealth anymore. It's like Maslow's hierarchy of needs. I'm not the richest person out there, but I have a lot. And what motivates me now is adventure, conversation, philosophy, service, growth of. So it doesn't even have to be mine. Like just to be part of that kind of creative expansion really turns me on. And what's been cool about my adventures with service titan this last year is that the minds I've talking, I've been talking to are bigger. You know, even that, like aside from the checkbook, I mean there's that Maslow's hierarchy of needs, right? That. You got it. That's why raise your prices, buy some options, quit waking up thinking about payroll and start thinking about what am I going to do with this amazing life of mine and how can I, how can I help? What could I do? And what adventures could I embrace? That's where I think, you know, cutting out things that don't serve me. I am recognizing, you know, this right now. I don't like, I don't have to do that anymore. How do I work myself out of that? It's usually a system. It's usually handing it off to someone else, you know, those kinds of things. But that's what really motivates me. That's Why I love podcasts is it's. This is the most time you and I have ever spent together.

It is.

Yeah. And I'm like, yay. I get to talk to Jeff. So I think that's what. What drives me. But self awareness is getting clear on what it is that you really, really want. It's not selfish. It's self fulfillment. And when you fill yourself up, you can overflow. You can give. You're not needing people to do. I don't need Hot Rod to do anything for me. He just has to be who he is. And on my best days, that's. That's when we get along, and that's. That's when you know it's great to have a partner in life, but I know that I'm relapsing when I'm thinking, if only he would. It's out of my control, man. And so as an employer, you don't control people. I never talk about people's attitude. I learned this from Harry Friedman. I work on my own attitude, thank you very much. I get up, I got a little morning routine. I listen to good things, I work out, but I don't get into people's heads. What I will do is offer behaviors. And if you help someone win, here's some behaviors that could cause you to get a better result. Chances are their attitude's fine. And even if you've got. Have you ever had kind of a grumpy team member and everybody says, oh, he's a black cloud around here? And I'm like, all right, you go right along with this guy, and he's a little bit of a curmudgeon. Shows up at the door, the nicest guy to the customers, does everything you want him to do. Just like, he lets off a little steam around you. Don't sit next to him at lunch. But like, that guy, his behaviors, he seems happy. Even if you don't like how he's presenting right now. Does that make sense?

It does make sense. And he's not selling anything to you. He's selling it to the customer. And he knows his job, and he wants. Some people just want to let me do my job.

I respect it. I respect it. You do. You again, like, that guy isn't asking me to be different. He. And he's complying with what's required for him to not have me compromise my integrity. You're being nice to the customers. You're charging the rate we need to. You're wearing the uniform. You're being safe. You know, those are the Things that could we just let him be, as opposed to, like, try and get inside his head and tell him how to think. That's beyond my control.

As. As our careers escalate and our opportunities increase, our time becomes more and more valuable. What experience can you share with people that are running a service business right now? They're owners. They feel like they're wearing all the hats. They're. They're growing. They're able to get out to a couple of conferences, Pantheon or Home Services Summit, and start to learn some things, but they just feel like time is never on their side. Do you have any tools or tips about time management or how to determine where to focus that have helped you get to where you are?

Well, a very practical tip is my calendar is blocked. Like, if I don't, I'll have a. You know, I'll take notes, like, when we're talking and stuff, and I might just jot down some things. I. I can't type into my calendar right away. But overall, I have a business plan with some goals and some, you know, may this. And this is another thing. I say, may this or something better come to pass. This is as big as I can think right now, but if you got better for me, bring it. Like, so may this or something better come to pass. But then, like, what am I going to do aligned with that and what. For a long time, what I did is I made lists, but I overestimated how much I could get done in a day. Like, so there's 10 things on my list, and the day's done. So what I started doing is time blocking. And that's why I show up on time for this podcast like, it's on my calendar. And then right after this, I got something else. And right after this, I go work out. Like, I know that sounds kind of obsessive, but I like to get a lot of things done. What it made me realize is I have no more time left. So either something comes off to put you on or it has to wait, or maybe I don't need to do it at all. So time blocking really allowed me, you know, practically to consider that which I want. And here's another couple of things that happened to me is when my. My husband's partner died. He was 33, worked himself into a health crisis, and the last words he said to me were, if I don't do it myself, it'll never get done. And he died, and it got done. We are infinitely important. We're also absolutely replaceable, right? So another instance when I was working at Benjamin Franklin. Benjamin Franklin, the punctual plumber. I was employee number one. It makes me really proud because I think they have like 500 locations now or something. And, you know, I am kind of a zero to one girl once it's at one. That's why I'm not at Zoom day to day anymore. I am not strong. I'm good at the zero to one is what I'm also realizing. And then finding someone to replace you and move on to the. The next adventure. Although Zoom is always tattooed on my heart and my body, by the way, I have a Zoom logo tattoo. But when I was at Benjamin Franklin, the. The mandate was all the presidents of the companies that were part of this investment group were going to be required to move to Sarasota, Florida. And I lived on a farm in Missouri at the time, and my parents and my dad with dementia lived in the barn. And I'm like, I'm not moving to Florida. My dad will get lost. I'm not doing it. I didn't want to. So I said to the, the my bosses, I'm going to find my replacement. You won't even miss me. We'll figure this out. I got Tab Hunter. I love Tab so much. He was. I knew he was going to be great. I got him, like, up to speed. And then my last day happened and I let everybody know I'm a phone call away. Just let me know how it goes. Jeff, my phone did not ring.

Wow.

Did not one call. Not even Tab called me and I just went, huh? You're just always replaceable. And it's freeing, it's really freeing to know that it's humbling, like, they'll be fine. So when you say you don't have enough time, if you're at the conference, you know what? Tell them I'm going to be busy all day and whatever trouble you cause, I'm here for you. We'll get out of it. We'll dig out of that hole and we'll make a story out of it and we'll make a customer happy. I will back you up. Just make, make decisions today and I'll check in at 5 o' clock and you let me know how it. How it went. But if you just let them go, right, they'll probably do great. As long as they know you're not going to be micromanaging the second you get back in the door, like, okay, oh, that was a disaster. I love problems. And see what we can do to fix this is the trust that you can work towards to allow them to make better decisions without you. Does that make sense?

It does. Our conference is called Homecoming at Homefront brands. It's in two weeks and we'll have over 400 people there. And we've already touched on one thing that's going to be a focus of our conference is pricing. I don't know if you know Casey Brown, but she is one of the country's leading pricing experts. Her company is called Boost Pricing and she is an amazing speaker. She speaks every year at the EOS conference. You know, 5,000 people, 10, however many people are at that conference every year. And she is somebody that you should know. And we're keynoting our event and, and her, her take on pricing and that just the power of pricing 1 or 2 or 3% versus just saying, well, I'm going to cut 5%. Don't cut 5%, because the impact on your bottom line of, of a modification to top line isn't so material. It's just, I mean, if you make 10 on the bottom line and you cut your pricing 10%, I mean, you just took off, I mean, all your profit, you know, or, you know, it's so, it's, it's really material. And people don't think about that. They're very cavalier about their pricing. But the second thing is, is something I heard you talk about on a podcast. And I'm going to be opening with a small story from Jack Stack and the Great Game of Business that's opening the conference.

Yeah.

What would you share with the audience? I don't think enough people, because this, this book's like 35 years old and it was the story of International Harvester. But, like, what, what was it about the Great Game of Business, the book and the methodology that made such an impression on you?

Well, when we were first, like going back 40 years, and I'm thinking, I'm visiting with Frank Blau and Frank Blau told me, and this is, I always say this, write this down. It's important. You've got to charge more than it costs, right? Okay. So if you don't know how much it costs, you're going to wing it. And that's what, like, that's why I said, you need to learn to read a balance sheet and a profit and loss. They're not that hard. Just nobody taught you, it's fine, we'll get there. And so he taught me how to read this. And then you put a little budget together, like, you get to, to where you are, which sucks. You know sales are a million costs or 1.2 million and you're, you're dying, you know your business is dying. So would you rather have what if I had a $2 million business again thinking and then reverse engineering it and these were my expenses and I could have 20% on the bottom line. What decisions do I have to make to make that so well, you got a price to get that to that, a 1 million or 2 million or 1.2 million in sales. And as I did the math, I didn't know how else to explain it to the three plumbers we had as to why we need to raise our prices so dramatically. So I showed them here's where we are and here's where we could be. But it's going to involve quintupling our prices. And I didn't know what else to do. Just like if I just announced we're going to quintuple our prices. What? Well they would be, why aren't you guys making a ton of money? What? No one will buy that. Like all those objections. But I said here's the math man. I so I didn't know that that was a thing and the thing was called Open Book Management until I read Jack Stack's book and then I became a groupie. I went to Springfield, I ended up moving to Springfield, Missouri. That's where we went middle age crazy and bought a farm and everything was just kind of funny. Just attached myself to Jack Stack, whom I consider a good friend now. He's amazing, real deal guy. He has at this point in his life he has like 35 to 40 businesses, like a index fund of businesses all employee owned in some way as like a lab, just experimentation. And then if they need cash flow, if people are retiring, they want to cash out. He sells a business like all of this, he does, you know, with a beginner's touch I would say he just like lets them know what we're doing, gets the team in on the game. And what I found over the years is the team will fix everything if you let him in on the game. You just try stuff and you try and move the numbers and you give them. I mean if you've never made the pilgrimage to Springfield, Missouri to see the great game of business, I mean we do dirty jobs, they remanufacture engines. I mean it is not sexy work. And they'll have one key number up on a big lcd, lcd as I would say screen. And if the number is red, that's bad. If it's green, it's good. And if it's red, someone on the factory floor will come up and say, what do you need? How can I help? It's beautiful. So I didn't know that it was a legit thing and then I'm like, oh, so people do this? Oh, and then I couldn't get enough of it. And since that day, I've always been an open book management girl. And Stack, Jack Stack has had a huge influence on my life.

Yeah, he'd be a great podcast guest for Unemployable. I'm just saying if we could. If I knew, if I, if I knew any, if I knew anybody that knew him. If you know anybody that knows him.

You know what? I know two guys over there. One is Steve Baker and Steve Baker's gonna say yes for sure. And he is funny and has been Jack's one of Jack stacked right hand men his whole life. I will get you these numbers and then I'll ask him to ask Jack.

I usually do that off camera, but that's fine. But the story was they were about, they were about to go out of business and they had a massive problem and there was no way to save them. They were just going to shut down. And they said, well, you know, the employees basically stepped up and said, well, we're wasting all this money here, we're doing all this. And then they had to work. I forget the exact story, I'm going to brush up on it prior to homecoming, but basically do you remember exactly the situation they had these orders to place. I think there was some Russians involved and, and they just couldn't get these. And they basically had to fulfill this order. And if they didn't fulfill the order. So the employees just got together and created an entire new system to be able to accomplish the order. And they somehow barely scraped by to survive. And they were like, wow, they do.

That with every day for a while. But what happened is Jack Stack, this is how I understand just pieces of the story. So Jack Stack was mid level manager at International Harvester and tired of the brass coming down with some management flavor of the month. Okay, your team needs to do this. Your team now needs to do this. And none of it seemed to be working. You know, when people complain about interest rates, I live this, I graduated from college when interest rates. And you're trying to buy a house interest rates, the prime was at 18. Like this is when this was happening, right? So this is, this took down a lot of businesses including International Harvesters. So Jack Stack says, I've had it you want me to now let go of these 114 employees? I'm going to buy this branch. And so he gets all of his friends and family together, and he comes up with $100,000 total. And he owes 89,900,000 to the bank to take over. Like, it just. The story is ridiculous. And then he learns that the bank won't lend him money, but he doesn't understand why, so he just. This is such a good idea. So he keeps asking the bankers, what are you looking for on my balance sheet? Why are you saying no? Tell me with the numbers, what you're. What ratio are you talking about? He said that's how he learned to read a balance sheet and a profit loss. And then he put those scorecards up on the board, and he assigned a person to every account number and said, you're going to report in on it in the huddle. We need cash sales and profits every day to keep them from shutting us down. Like the bank coming and collecting all these assets. It's such a good story. I'm so glad you're. I'm so glad you're inspired by that. So I'm just moving around. Can you see the sun's kind of following me around my office?

Where are you sitting today?

The sun just always finds me.

Where do you. Where do you live? Ellen, where are you sitting?

I live in Utah. I live in Utah. So that's. In fact, we came back to Utah. That's where we had our business a long, long time ago. But my son and his wife and their daughter moved back to Utah, so. So did we. So we sold the farm, and then we came back here, and I love it here. So that's where I am right now. So I'm excited about your event and I'm super excited about Casey Brown because. Okay, here's another thing that's really resonating with me these days. So you get your numbers in place and you have your scorecard, and then you have meetings about the numbers and you go, oh, we need more sales. That's offense. We need to manage these expensive. That's defense. We need this mount. And in ebitda, because we set that goal, you make it up. But here's the game, all right? And now there'll be chatter in this meeting, but it doesn't go anywhere. So every week we say, we need more sales. Like if I. I can't tell you how many board members have told me we need more sales. Oh, you're kidding, right? Okay, well, the. What are we Are we going to run a contest? Are we going to raise our prices? Are we going to train our team members on better communications? Are we going to improve our price book? Like, there's dozens of things we could do to impact sales, but those are projects. And I don't. I don't know if you can see this. Like. Like, I got a list of my favorite books here. And right on top, I collect books. And right on top are these two books.

There you go.

And I am obsessed with project management, Jeff. The mundane. The mundane work of leadership is getting projects done.

Yeah. So for the audience on Apple or Spotify, that was. What the heck is eos, which is the entrepreneurial operating system, and then Traction, which is kind of the operator's manual for entrepreneurial operating system by Gino Wickman. Huge in franchising, huge in businesses between 2 million and $50 million. It's really about seven simple one or two page tools that anybody can implement. And I've been running. I run Traction in every business that we. That we launch and big or little, and it just really keeps you on track. Absolutely.

And so then you just. I mean, again, to get this picture, if you aspire to be a serial entrepreneur like Jeff, you go to those strategic meetings and you might occasionally go to the L10 meeting, and then you go to every quarterly thing like you're gonna be. But you don't have to be there every day.

That's right.

So good. Well, Casey is my new best friend. I'm gonna find her. Yeah. I'd love an introduction to her.

I'm happy to make that introduction, I think. Yeah.

Okay.

She. She is an incredible speaker and she volunteers like 600 hours a year of her time on passion projects. She's done an incredible job. I met her in Strategic Coach, so she's done an incredible job managing her time with assistance, managing her email box, managing her calendar. She's just really somebody. She's got an engineering background and has one of the world's leading authorities on pricing. Really? And, and articulates it exceptionally well. So. And she's got a new program out for. It's very affordable for companies to get into. Kind of a mastermind on pricing. I just. Everything that she's done I thought was spot on. So I will make that introduction to you, and I know that you will be fast and furious.

We'll be fast friends. Love, love, love that. Hey, I've got a couple things to say about pricing, too. Just as you bring this up, and this is going to be the topic one Is that, you know, you talk about like, we spend so much time trying to find, you know, defense, find the 5% we can knock off, go back and lower the price to the customer. As soon as, you know, as soon as that happens, I think, why did they give me that other price in the beginning? Like, it just it you now you wonder, should you say yes? I don't. You know, just like stand tall on that, on your price and there's work to be done at your company. I guarantee you can get better sales if you focus.

My best advice on pricing is don't let your lip quiver when you deliver the price.

You can bite your lip.

Yeah. Give it with confidence. This is what it is.

Yep. And then just shut up.

Yep.

For 10 hours. I'm not going to talk next, but those are techniques that I learned. Somebody told just the next person to speak is your customer. They're going to either say, yes, let's go. And you're going to say, and I always say, great, you've made a good decision. Here's what happens next. And then we go like it was still in a franchise or whatever. Like when I've asked, I'm going to. Or they're going to say no. And then you might ask them what made you say no. That now you got something to work with. Like, but I'm not going to talk next. That's a trainable behavior. I learned that. Right. So these, there's ways you can improve it. But if we have time for a little story, my good friend Dan Holohan, I hope Dan somehow finds it, put his name in it, if he's ever searching for him, that he gets it. I talk to him usually once or twice a year. I love him so much. And he's a hydronics trainer, like, so that that niche I was talking about, like warm water. He is probably the, the premier voice in that industry. And my husband and I both learned a lot from him. I learned a lot about how to communicate because he's a dazzling writer. He writes for a lot of the magazines still, and he's just amazing. You can find him@HeatingHelp.com HeatingHelp.com if you're interested. But he tells a story that blew my mind once. And this was the point of his story. But I took it a different way. He said, there are no boring topics, only boring people. So you can find, you can find anything, no matter how mundane. And if you think about it, you're going to find something interesting about it. And then he picks up a Copper elbow. So we all know what a copper elbow is. Sometimes it's called an L, some. Sometimes it's called a 90. But it's a little curved piece of copper, and it's a piece of pipe fitting. And he said, now imagine this started somewhere, like in a copper mine in Chile. So some miner down there with a headlamp, maybe with. I don't know what kind of tools this guy would be using, but he's literally scratching copper ore out of the earth and maybe loading it into some rickety truck in the darkness. And there's just his miner's lamp. And then he moves this on some track, and it ends up at the opening at the mine. And then somebody lifts it into a truck. And that truck is up in the mountains, and Chile is coming down the hill and maybe kind of losing control and the, like. What is happening with this guy? This is amazing. And then he gets it to the shipyard, and they put it on a ship and they sail it across the ocean. And one place where they make copper elbows is this company called Uponor. And Uponor adopted a company at one point called WSBO. And, you know, WBO started 500 years ago making swords. And that company has been in business ever since. They started as sword makers. Now they're making copper elbows. And think of the engineering that goes into a copper elbow. There's machines, there's infrared, there's all of this. And they. They boil it and mold it and do whatever they. I mean, all those people, all that factory work, all that engineering and how perfect it is. I mean, how rarely a copper elbow doesn't fit. They're amazing. There's billions of them out there. And then they package it, QR code it, whatever, put it on another boat, put it on a plane, put it on a FedEx truck, and they deliver it right to your ship shop. Isn't that fascinating? And, you know, as he was telling the story, I was thinking of all the families that are involved with all of those people in the warehouse, in the. On the. The FedEx team, that. That entire chain of distribution, and then it arrives at the contractor's door, and then the contractor is responsible for pricing to support that whole chain. And he says to Mrs. Fernwicke, the price is going to be ten grand. And Mrs. Fernwicke tells him, I just overspent on this Italian marble counter. Could you shave 5% off your price? And he does and takes a hit for that entire worldwide channel of production and distribution. And that's wrong. That's wrong. You are responsible for them. So there's another story for you. And Stan Holohan told that story much better than me, but I have never lost it.

Look, prices only go one way. And you got a price price right. And you got to price proud and you got to stand behind. You got to believe that the value that you are delivering is worth what you are providing. And if you can get enough leads, you can do enough quotes where you don't have to compromise yourself to take jobs that are lower than margin. Look, one of the things I learned a piece of advice from somebody, and this was probably. I don't even know who said it because it was like when I was in my early 20s, but they said, if you're going to be broke, don't be tired too. You know, if you're going to be broke, you might as well be sitting on your butt sitting on the shore fishing, you know, doing something. But like, don't hustle 70 hours a week to be broke.

I've been broke and happy.

Yeah.

Yeah. When I was a kid, like, I had all my money in a jar. It was a peanut jar, so my money smelled like peanuts. The peanuts weren't in there anymore, but the, the peanuts were. And I had.

Do you ever pay anybody and pay anybody and put them into epileptic shock from. That's the peanut allergy.

That is that you change. Lady, I didn't even think of that. No. You know, I worked a lot of great restaurants. I had cash and I was. I was not tired. I was having fun. But those days passed too. Like, you know, that, that, you know, you get to change your mind on things and do different things. Hey, I love you so much. I've enjoyed this. This time together. Thank you for asking me to play. And I'll get you in touch with Steve and hopefully Jack. That would be a big score for sure. So let's see what we can do.

That sounds great. Do you. You've got to go now. Do you got a hard stop?

I don't. I don't. I'm just knowing we're getting close to the. The top of the hour, but I'm okay.

Oh, that's fine. I want to. I want to. Let me double check.

Let me just. Let me check my calendar to make sure what I've got at the. The top of the hour. Oh, no, I've got another hour. I've got another half hour with you.

Should be us.

Gabriella. Gabrielle set us up. I'm sorry. Yeah, I'm looking at my calendar right now.

That's no problem. We, we won't go much longer. But I, I do want to get from you, as someone who is really at the forefront of technology in the home service industry, particularly in the trades, what are some of the biggest things that you see happening right now? Trends, threats, challenges, maybe some opportunities for people. Personally, I. A lot of opportunity for consolidation. So for people that have the courage to start businesses within a franchise, even, I mean, private equity is going through the brands into the boxes. We've got some very advantageous resales going on right now. And it's not that the people want to get out of the. I mean, and we've only been a platform for. In our. We're in our second year of trading, really only been a platform for three years. And we already have some people that have built significant businesses and they are getting some offers that they just can't refuse for their businesses already. And we're, we're helping and allowing those to go through. So, so consolidation is definitely one thing that is an outcome of all of this growth and all of this technology. But from your perspective, like, what are some of the few, most exciting things that you're seeing right now for the home service industry and people that are operating in it?

Well, we've got time, so let's settle in. These are two of my favorite, favorite topics, and they definitely are intertwined. Let's talk about consolidation for a minute again. You know, I like, read. I like to listen to books. I think most business books could be shorter. You know, they make their point. Right?

Yeah. My book is, is called Discernment. Could have been a pamphlet or an article. That's what it's. That's the subtitle.

There's just something about the half of a book. Like, can you make it 200 pages?

Sure.

But. Yeah, my. Yeah, I, I get that. But there's a, a really good book written by Bo Burlingham, which he is the co writer of the Great Game of Business. He is Hope Burlingham is a brilliant business mind. He's been writing for Inc. Magazine for a hundred years. And he wrote this book called Finish Big. And it's a very approachable book. And his, his thesis is, the day you start your business, you should think about how you're going to exit your business, because everybody exits their business. You're gonna die. You can't take it with you. And there's different reasons for selling and there's, you know, maybe you want to maximize wealth. Maybe you want to create some kind of legacy that one of your nine children may be interested in. Maybe you have key employees that you really want to set up in some way. Maybe you want to start some adjacent businesses and create like an empire, you know, not unlike what Jack Stack has done. Although so many of his businesses have nothing to do with each other. He just like they just all, you know, sales, profits and cash man. But. So what do you want? Again my favorite question, what do you want and why do you want it? There are ways that you can sell your business and I've been involved in probably 50 or more deals either personally or tangentially. Like I've been part of the company or as a consultant or it's been one of our franchisees or something like that. No two deals are alike. There's always a little bit of nuance to a deal and that's I love the game of buying and selling companies. So one thing to keep in mind is buying companies is an option for every contractor, every business owner. So even if you have no money, you have less options. But you could craft a deal for someone who's going to shut their business down and say hey, how about if you point that phone number and website to ours and I'll pay you 10% of sales that come in through your leads forever. I mean you'd spend that much on marketing and you give someone an honorable exit, they get to sell instead of close their business down. And most businesses are not really saleable. So you could consolidate yourself. So when you read a book like Finish Big you want to look at it like I could buy a company as well as I could sell a company and you just get more educated and these are just pieces of the game. The game is bigger than just your business. And then another must read book I think is the E Myth and our friend Ken Goodrich wrote or co wrote the E Myth. H Vac Contractor. You know the E Myth for contractors. Michael Gerber, definitely ahead of his time and his voice is in my head. When I was starting Benjamin Franklin, I like listen to his CD non stop because his philosophy is that you create systems so that ordinary people can do extraordinary things and that and then extraordinary people can rise and go as far as they want. So like that kind of philosophy of building a system based, a Morton's based kind of business really resonated with me. Didn't need me and Jeff, I've never been the smartest guy in the room. Like, like far from it. Like I'm like do you know how to do that? Because I don't know how to do that is pretty much my party line. So those two books are really, really powerful. So this is a game anybody can play. It's not just for the big guys. The big guys are going to be looking at ebitda, which is profit. And it's specifically defined as earnings. Earnings is the same word as profit. It's like an elbow on a 90. Just saying. So earnings before interest, taxes, depreciation and amortization. In words, they push some of those dollars back into profit when they're valuing your company, evaluating and valuing your company. And that number is a good number to know. So you can learn these things. You can set up your chart of accounts that way. So then you, if the, the more EBITDA you have, keep in mind the more taxes you'll pay. But that's the rent we pay to live in this great country. But taxes get added back in when you go to sell your company. Like the, the dollar amount of those taxes. I know I'm getting a little granular here. But you learn the game. So you learn the game of how this is could play and you expand your options because if you walk that path, you might choose not to sell your company. Now it's just a cash making machine that runs systematically that your kid does want to take over or your employees through an esop. Or Jack, Jack Stack wrote another book. Do you have you read the A Stake in the Outcome?

I have not.

It's on your list now because this is, and it's an older book, but it's still as, you know, classic and evergreen as the Great Game of Business. What he did was he then wrote another book sharing how he set up employee owned companies and the failures and joys of, of doing that. Like every time he did it there were some good things and some bad things and he tells you about his journey. So you can see, wow, there's a lot of ways you could sell your company or have an employee owned company to some, some effect. So those games are happening right now. But the, but the game is so big. You know, Tommy Mello's favorite word is arbitrage. And that means basically. And again, this isn't what motivates me, but it's an interesting concept that you buy something and then you resell it right away by adding very little to it for a much bigger selling price by just combining it or putting your brand on it or you know, streamlining some, you know, consolidating some positions or some things in the company and then it becomes worth a lot More. And that's why companies are buying companies, because they intend to sell them again. So the, the wealth that some of our friends are experiencing, and I hope this is still on topic with what you're asking, is just to kind of turn people on to what, like, is happening out there. So I have a friend who sold his $10 million company maybe 15 years ago to an early round of these consolidators that are still very strong right now. And he left some money, some stock on the table, and they sold again. And he made more money and they sold again. He's had 16 turns on his money.

Wow.

I know. And it. That's not what motivates him today. You will move past that. What motivates him today is he's obsessed with technical training in the US he wants plumbers to be really, really good at plumbing. Like, now he's got the freedom to really focus on that. He's an extraordinary leader. So I'll get him on your podcast, too.

Okay.

I just don't. I don't. I don't like to tell stories about, you know, without too much permission. So.

And who, who is that?

I'll. I'll let you know.

Okay.

Okay. So I'll, I'll give you some, some, some good contacts for that. But his story is just absolutely amazing. So there's a lot of that is happening. And, And I think Covid did, did home services a big favor. I know it was devastating in a lot of ways, and I don't mean to make light of that, but I know we were busy as drain cleaners. We were humping. And so private equity, who was investing in bouncy house franchises, is going, what are we going to do with our money? And so many eyes turned to home services. Recession proof. It's not. It's not going to go away, no matter what the economy does. If you have a clogged drain, you're going to call somebody. It's AI assisted, but not AI threatened because that drain cleaner cannot be replaced by a robot. It just. The infrastructure is not capable of that. Maybe someday, but not in our lifetime and not for a really long time. And so there's just things about home service that became absolutely adorable to private equity. And boy, Jeff, I thought it was a bubble that was going to last about five years. And it's more interesting than ever right now. So on that topic of buying and selling and the opportunities of selling a company, like, if you have a. If you have a $10 million company with $2 million in EBITDA that you're going to have people crawling over themselves for that company.

Right.

As long as it has some systems and it can run without you. You know, that's the, that's the second like the money's there and the, the project management is there that we can do this on a consistent basis. Let me pause here and get your thoughts before we move into AI and all the other cool things that are happening.

I think you're on topic. And people need to have a why when they start a business or they get into a franchise. And again I do the first two hours of training and whatever their plan is going to be, I'm going to encourage them to double it and try to find a way to do it in half the time. Because we put ourselves in a box. We self limiting beliefs are what we do to keep ourselves comfortable and we, everybody, it's like playing Minecraft. You just build this wall around yourself based on excuses that you allow yourself to believe in your head and you argue with yourself. So they go through training and maybe it's somebody out of corporate America, maybe they're sales reluctant. So they, they, they, they're, you know, they're not that comfortable with it. So they're thinking about the thing they're more comfortable about or they're not comfortable with this aspect or that aspect of the business. And so they start compromising on their outcome based on now negotiating with themselves with what they're willing to, to do based upon their level of comfort. So for us like once you, once you say this is a business up into itself and all I have to do is make the right decisions and put the right people in place and watch how the business grows or doesn't grow and then continue to make iterative adjustments and incremental improvements and then the business is going to grow. So everybody should be building a business. And I, I tell people there's three things that you ask yourself when you're getting ready to start a business. Fourth thing would be does it conform to my investment of time and my return model. So first of all like if I, if I can't build the business to $100 million today, then I can't get involved because the outcome's not going to be enough for my time based on the constraints that I put around my minimum dollars per hour that I'm willing to invest. Now think about that formula though. The other thing that you can do is you can have a smaller outcome but you can just put in half the time instead of working 2000 hours a year. If you, if the math, if the calculus is 1000 hours, then the business doesn't have to get as big to hit your number. So. So it forces that balance between time and dollars to say, well, I can get involved in this, but I can only put the potential for this investment is only this. So I can only give this 8 hours a month because my estimation is going to be if I, if I want to make $10,000 an hour, whatever my number is, then, you know, it's got to be. It's got to conform to that. I know Dan Martell charges. Well, I'm not going to do his business, but he put a dollar per hour on his time. He charges a lot, and he gets it. And if you don't want to pay it, you don't get them. And that's fair. I'll let him do his own pricing.

So I love him. That's another book worth reading. Buy back your time.

Oh, it's. Yeah, it's fantastic. So. So the three questions really are. Number one, you know, who is the customer? You know, how. How is there a market in, you know, a subset to that question is, is who is the customer and how many of them are there? What's the size of the market and what, how much do I have to get? Is it a growing market? Those are all subsets of who the customer is. HomeServices has a 10.3% CAGR by every measure. So you can enter a home service business and not have to steal a customer from anybody else to get a customer, because there's 10.3% new customers every year growing. The second question is, what is the truly at the core of it? What's the problem that you solve? What is it? Is it customer? Is it, Is it customer experience? You know, what, what is the problem that you solve? But the third question is the most interesting to me, is who is the natural owner for this business? Before you start a business, you should identify who the natural owner of it is. So, for example, if at Homefront Brands, if we think that another platform company may be an acquirer to us, well, then we should not add a brand that's going to be in conflict with that. That platform. So you don't want to expand your. Like, the beautiful thing about Zoom Drain is it's got a very narrow scope. So you're gonna, you're not. If somebody could actually have a plumbing business and they could acquire a Zoom drain because you're not really doing plumbing, you're just doing the drain cleaning portion of It. So the more narrow your scope of your business is, creates a broader subset of, you know, potential acquirers for your. For your company. So that's so good. Yeah.

It's a community, like, so at Zoom Drain, the heart of our marketing is really referral business. And another guy to have on your podcast. Have you met John Torres, who's friends with Howard?

No.

I met him when he did 750,000 in sales, and I was helping him get his books in order, and we were on the phone, and he pulls up his QuickBooks and I'm like, look, there's a comma. He just went over a million dollars. It was like this fun little moment. Last year he did. Or this. This. This current year, I think they're on Track to do 55 million.

Wow.

And all they do is referral marketing.

Love it. I want that guy, because that is such a big believer in that.

Me too. And so they have a team of, like, shiny guys who go make friends. They're not even the sales people. They're just warming things up in his community. And then when someone needs something, very low pressure. When insurance agents need to, gosh, is this worth filing a claim for? Or maybe you guys could just go check it out. We're on the job. They have such a cool model for growing their business, and I love their culture and their company.

See in restoration. He's in the restoration space.

Yeah, it's called Entrusted E N T R U S T. I think.

I think Howard did introduce me to him, I think maybe in person at one of his events. So I. I did meet him in person.

Yeah, I met him at.

We were at Donald Miller's house for a little mastermind group, and he was there. There.

Okay, There you go. Yeah. Was I there that time too? I think.

I think you were, yeah.

Okay, well, that was cool. How about Donald Miller? I'm not going. You come to my cool house and.

We'Re like, okay, yeah, well, all right. Getting bigger rooms.

I think what you said is really important. I think that with Zoom Drain, those are the. Those are the. The key questions. And are you really cut out to be an entrepreneur? Is one worth thinking about? Like, because. Oh, there's a guy. It was on Diary of a CEO, you know, Stephen Bartley, his podcast. He had this guy, his name was Mohnish. M O N I S H. And he's like a billionaire entrepreneur. He's in finance, but he described entrepreneurship really, really well. And just that even if. Even if you are well suited, whatever hours you allot to that new venture, you gotta be all in on those hours. So if it's 10 hours a week, it's not you thinking about it. Some of it is like you gotta craft the, the vision and get, you know, garner the, the ideas. But mostly it's are things getting done and who's doing them and if no one's doing them, you're doing them. If it's going to take off like there is that you got a grit and, and go especially it's just getting that rocket launched and it's going to take some energy. So whatever time you devote to it, be discerning, to use your word, of what you do during that time. Right. That's, that makes all the difference as to whether or not like if you have another business and you start a franchise on, on the side, you can't just be listening to podcasts.

That's right.

You listen as you're driving. You listen while you're at work. But when you're working on that franchise, it's going to be about money, marketing and people like, how do we get this thing absolutely rocking and rolling? I think is, I love what you said about what time and energy do I have and now how am I going to spend that time is really important.

Yeah.

Now, and this is where AI comes in. Should we transition just before we run out of time on that?

We've got a couple minutes for that and then I have a curveball and I got a fastball for you. And based on, based on our conversation, you, you might take a while with those. So if you want to say something about it. But you know what? I, every, every conference I go to and every podcast I listen to is AI. I don't know that we, there's much that we can add right now. I mean, it's just, it is massively transforming every industry. Home services has some protection in the fact that there's going to be a human that has to show up at and do the service, at least for the foreseeable future. But in the lead generation in the back office, I mean, we're taking advantage of it in all the ways that, that, that the world is. And it's going to be very transformational.

Yeah. And I think like, the way I like to think about it is, okay, look at what a service tech has to deal with all day. What if we didn't ask him to get the address three times? What if we didn't ask him to copy down that serial number that's this long and has like. And these guys may or may not. You know, if they're not college bound, some of these tasks that we ask them to do are just not in their genius, you know, so if we can get AI to take the points of pain out of their lives, you're going to really attract some great people to the, to the industry. Okay, so that's my.

Less administration, more activation, meaning the things, the pay time, face to face with the customer, performing the service, and then the administration stuff. If we can minimize that yet it's done on time, with accuracy, with excellence, then we've got a better business. And it's going to help. It's going to help all of us. And there's just, just too many. Look, there's going to be some, some job shuffling and some retraining that has to go on. But a lot of these jobs are things that just didn't add a lot of value to the process, but they were just things that were necessary.

Yeah. Or if you become an expert in that, you won't be replaced. You'll be the most interesting person in the room. Right. So there is an opportunity to like, I'll be the guy to figure it out at this company and, man, you're going to have a job forever.

Absolutely.

Your own business.

All right, Ellen, it is time for us to. Yeah, we're gonna, we're gonna tug gently on the reins and we're gonna turn this horse towards the barn and in Utah out there. So we were gonna head it to him, but I've got a curveball for you. But before I hit you with the curveball, tell people the best way to get in touch with you should they want to.

Okay. Go to ellenroar.com so e l l e n r o h r.com and my email is ellenlenrohr.com that's a, that's a great way to get a hold of me. If you're interested in Service titan, go to servicetitan.com Servicetitan is advanced software for the trades and I think the horse to bet on, which is why I'm hanging out with these cool guys. I love their values. I love where they're going with the software we've used at Zoom Drain. We've used Service Titan for 11 years. Ara, the founder, I think, sold us the Service Titan once upon a time and I'm honored to be on, on that team. It's amazing. So that's where I am and I love Zoom Drain. So you're interested in franchising zoom drain franchise.com or go to zoomdrain.com. you can click on the. The franchise business franchise button on that site. I love Zoom so much and it's an outstanding franchise model.

Yeah, we'll put a link to Zoom Drain right on our homefrontbrands.com website. You can first. Okay.

Okay, thanks. Okay. That's how you get a hold of us. Thank you for that. Oh, are you allowed to do that?

Of course. You'd say we promote whatever you promote whatever you want to promote. No, I'm not going to do that. But you promote whatever you want to promote. We'll play the whole thing.

Okay. All right.

This has been amazing. Okay, Curveball.

Okay.

Gun to your head. You have to start a business in the next 30 days. You don't have a choice. There's punitive damages if you don't, but it can't be something that you're currently in or currently doing. Where is opportunity in the market where you would start that business?

And I'll tell you why I came up with this idea. One of my side passions is I do some business planning classes with prisoners who happen to be very entrepreneurial. Just telling you. And it's a long, strange story as to how this started, but I fell in love with this one teacher at a prison who's since retired. And then the guys who are in the class and, you know, like, they get out and they got no options or in the situation you're talking about. Right. They're not hirable. They don't have any money. You know, they're not going to get a loan. So one of the. Certainly one of the options. And it may take a little help. And this is why I believe in helping a brother out. But I loves me a truck business. So a coffee truck, a food truck. Here's what you can do with a truck. You can probably get a loan for a truck. Now, your truck is your billboard. And you could paint that truck or get it painted or trade out or something so that you get a really bad. You could sleep in your truck. You could live in your truck if you had to just to get by. And then you can move. You don't need a lease, you don't need a place. So truck businesses. And then here's another great tip. Work for rich people. Because rich people will always have money. I don't care what the tax structure is. Rich people aren't going to get less rich. It just doesn't happen. So work with rich people. Take all their money, they'll make more. So in other words, someone who has the Wherewithal, If I hear a business model where it's for someone who is just. Just, you know, unemployed, and this is a. That is a different structure, and it's necessary. But if you're getting started, Robin Hood it, go find rich people, take their money, and then make them happy.

And it can be selling something out of a truck.

Yeah. Selling something out of mobile dog washing. I. I think, like, landscaping service. I like this is like, I wish there were more great landscaping maintenance. Like, I need that done every week to look that beautiful. And you got to show up. Just show up and do a great job. And I never ask them how much they're going to charge me. Like, these are. These are great businesses.

Got it? Yeah. Well, that's my fallback is a crepe cart in Key West. That's what I'm doing.

Oh, okay. Now that's nice because you. You added the location.

Well, I'm going to do it right there. I'm going to work from 6am to 11am you'll have some sweet, you'll have some savory. I'll be done the rest of the day. I. I'll just jump out on the boat and go fishing, and that'll be my day.

That's perfect. Now, I like that. I like the ad. Like, if you're gonna do this, you don't necessarily have to be like, in Fargo, North Dakota.

No, right.

You would be down in Key West.

That's right. Crepe expectations is the name of it.

Creep expectations. I love it.

Yeah, there you go.

It's okay.

It's taken, obviously, but. Okay, the last question. Fastball right down the middle. If you had one sentence to make an impact in somebody's life, what would that be?

Default to love. Default to love. Whatever happens, like, provide that person that and you will do. Okay. Default. Like, if I. No matter how you're instantly responding, like, try to make love your default position. And you're in good shape.

Perfectly said. Ellen, thank you so much for being on the podcast today.

This has been my pleasure. I love you more than ever now. And I'll get to some good guests and let me know when this comes out. We'll promote it. And I'm super happy to be friends with you. Thank you so much. I learned a lot today. I got all. Look, I got all sorts of notes on my.

My thing here on your remarkable. They're, well, awesome.

Am I remarkable?

Thank you everybody out there for listening. I hope you stayed tuned to the very bitter end. I'm Jeff Duden. Here with Ellen Rohr. And we have been on the unemployable podcast. Thanks for listening.