Steve Lieber | On the Homefront with Jeff Dudan #53

The restaurant business is a great equalizer. You don't have to have a lot of education. You know, if you have 8th grade mathematics, that's about all you need. You can really move up from hard work. At first, I thought, you know, my boss had lost his mind a little bit.

Well, I think everybody thinks that.

Why are we going to do a burger joint? What are you thinking? You know, do you think everybody can just open up a burger joint and just do it? My chef says, steve, I think you should put a little black pepper on the crust. And I'm like, what are you talking about, Chef, I just made something 30 pies in a row, and now you're telling me that I should put black pepper on the crust. And I'm about to go on right now. I'm next up for a busboy traveling the world to Australia and China and Paris, all for somebody else paying. To me, that's winning, you know.

Hello, and welcome to on the home Front. I'm your host, Jeff Duden. You will be able to smell this episode, so get your taste buds ready. We've got a good one cooking for you. From scrubbing tables at a bagel joint in New York City to winning pizza making contests across the world, and then becoming vice president of an international burger chain, Steve Lieber has really been the driving force behind Burger Fi's growth. Taking the company to new heights is one of the fastest growing natural burger franchises worldwide. I hope you're not starving while listening to this episode, because it's guaranteed to make you drool. If you like what you hear today, leave a like comment or subscribe to see all the content we have coming your way. If you have any questions regarding business franchising or just about the show, use the links below and we will get right back to you. Thanks for listening. Hey, everybody, this is Jeff Duden on the home front. Welcome everybody out there. And I have the pleasure of introducing Steve Lieber, who is the vice president of business development at BurgerFi. Welcome, Steve.

Hey, Jeff. Thanks for having me on the show.

Yeah, 100%. So we met, oh, maybe a month ago and had dinner together, and I thought that you would be a fascinating guest on the home front with us today. Based on your life journey in food, would you care to just go back and share a little bit maybe about your early days, early career, or how you grew up? Start wherever you want to. I know where we're going to end up.

Yeah, well, you know, Jeff, one of the things that. That I'm most proud of and I Think the reason why we started BurgerFi was, you know, that the restaurant business is a great equalizer and you don't have to have a lot of education. You know, if you have 8th grade mathematics, that's about all you need. You don't need to go to college, you don't need to, you know, you can really move up from hard work. And I still consider myself a busboy today. Actually, it was yesterday, but Today we celebrated BurgerFi's 13th anniversary. The very first restaurant. And when I'm in the restaurant, the best way to go talk to a table is to come up and tidy up the table, you know, and to pick up some dirty napkins. And it's just a way for me to get into the table. And I always felt that even when I was a bus boy, I was still running the show, you know, keeping the bathroom clean, keeping the tables turning, keeping enough clean tables. You never wanted a customer to be waiting with food in their hands and no table to sit at. So then, you know, I met the owner of BurgerFi. You know, now it's a public company. But the founder at the time, and he was a car dealer, I think he has about eight, eight car dealerships in New York City. But he was a self made guy. He was, you know, he was a tow truck driver and worked his way up and became an auto mechanic and then, then was selling Honda motorcycles. And they were selling Honda motorcycles and they came in one day and they had a picture of the Honda Civic and they said, hey, you want to sell this car? He's like, well, where are you going to put it? And the guy goes, well, we'll shove over the motorcycles and we'll put it right there. And obviously the Honda Civic is, I think, the, you know, the biggest selling car of one of the biggest selling cars of all time.

That's right.

And that led him on, you know, a multi million dollar journey. And then I said, well, what do you want to do? You know, why do you want to make a burger restaurant? You know? He said, well, you know, we, we opened up this gastropub in Delray beach, called the Office and we have lobster tacos and we have a tomahawk steak and we have this beautiful menu and Everybody orders a $20 hamburger and a beer. So I want to, I want to open up a burger and a beer company, take it nationwide. But I really want to do it because I want to create the American dream and prove that the American dream is still alive and well. And I'm happy to report that since that time, I think we have 65 or 70 people that started as hourly employees and now they're the director of training, the director of a regional part of the country running 20, 30 stores. So we have all these great success stories of people that started with us and made a career out of a hamburger job.

How many BurgerFi locations are there today?

There's 108 today, but we're getting very close to 109, I think is happening in New York City. We just opened up Altamont Springs, Florida, I think at the beginning of the week. So they're coming hard and fast again. Now that we're, you know, now that we're finally coming, coming out of the haze of COVID and people are coming back to restaurants, the restaurant business model has changed completely. So when we started this thing, BurgerFi was 85% dine in and 15% takeout. Zero percent was ordered online, zero percent was delivery, zero percent was drive through. Now we're 85% dine in, 35% from delivery service providers, and still the same 15% takeout. So everything has changed.

Do you have international locations?

We have restaurants in Saudi Arabia right now. Yeah.

Okay.

We're, yeah, we're in some discussions with a couple of other countries. Canada looks very promising for us and, and then we're, we're also interested in some stuff in the Middle East. But, you know, this year you and I found out at the Titus center where we were talking with Bill Edwards, that it's one of the biggest years of political uncertainty in the last 40 years. He said to us that there were 64 different countries holding national elections, controlling 51% of the world's GDP. So it's going to be an interesting year with the elections. Hopefully, you know, everything will come out and be pro business and everybody can just put their head down and work hard for their family and keep putting food on the table, you know.

Yeah, 100%. Steve, what was your first job in food service?

First job was a busboy. You know, I was at the Bagel Barn in upstate New York. And for 99 cents, you got two eggs, home fries, a bagel, and coffee for 99 cents. That was 1974 and I was the busboy and I got paid cash off the books just in case there's any. I hope there's no IRS agents on the call right now.

I sense that you're past the statute of limitations. I think you're probably. Okay, we'll edit that out if you want. We can edit that out yeah.

Well, I'll tell you what, the, you know, the making of that cash every Friday or whenever payday was. I'll tell you what, that immediately got me hooked on the restaurant business. You know, I love talking to people. I loved keeping the restaurant clean. I love, you know, having my money fill up in my pocket a dollar at a time. And. And then I guess I never lost that adrenaline rush, you know.

Yeah. And then where did you go from. From there. Had. You did. Were you ever chef?

No, I was. I became a pizza chef.

Okay.

You know, so. But I went. I went to, you know, at that time, there were. It was called the Catskill Mountains. It was two hours outside of New York City. It was a resort area, and it was at the very end of. Very, very popular in the 50s and 60s. And then it was reaching the end of its rope in the late 70s. And I was a server at some of the hotels there. And then. And then I actually went to school for chemistry. So my cousins are doctors. I, I enjoyed chemistry. I was good at it, but I just didn't feel that I had the, you know, the hardcore studiedness to become a doctor. And then I realized that, you know, feeding people and taking care of people on special occasions and, and dining out, you know, was kind of taking care of people in a different way, in a. A shorter basis, you know.

Yeah.

And then I was lucky that I, you know, was able to hit a few great companies in a row. I did two years with Planet Hollywood when I was very young. And then after Planet Hollywood, I went to the Cheesecake Factory very, very early on. There was only five cheesecake factories in the United States when I started, so it was an incredible ride and incredible growth and a ton of money. So was super, super exciting. And then when. When I was with them in Washington D.C. and then they. When they were expanding to Florida, I moved to Boca Raton with them in and opened up a couple restaurants there. And it was great, great stuff.

You've won some awards for pizza. When did you first start making pizza?

I started. I started making pizza and playing around with it in the early 2000. But I started working at a. At a Coal Oven pizza place. And Coal Oven is known as the first pizzerias in America were Co Oven Lombardi's in New York City and. And now there's Patsy's and Grimaldi's and John of Bleecker street and dude, I.

Was at John's on Bleecker Street. I ate lunch there on Friday. I just got back last night we spent four days in New York. Where's the other place we did on Christopher Street. It's a brand new place. Oh, I should have the name of it, but John's was great. And it is one of only 14, I believe, coal fired pizza places in Chicago, in New York, out of over 2,000 pizza places. Correct?

That's correct. And many of them are. All have lineage to the original. Lombardi is either their grandfather, somebody worked at the original, you know, and so those are the pizza dynasties. Exactly.

Linda Tree. Linda Tree. It was Linda Tree on Christopher Street. They've only been there two or three months and we waited 30. They do slices of eight pies and if anybody's going, the cremini mushroom with truffle was my favorite. But so they had eight, eight different slices and from, I don't know, 11am all the way to maybe 10pm on Sunday, line out the door, like just slices as fast as they could do them. I figured was it five, $10,000 an hour they were making? It was crazy. It was crazy.

Well, you know, New York, New York is like that. But, you know, remember New York is, is truly, you know, if you can make it there, you can make it anywhere. That's where the expression comes from. I mean, if you don't got good coffee, you're shut down. If you don't have good bread in New York, you're shut down. If you claim you make good pizza and you don't, you'll, you'll last maybe five months. Yeah, they're, they, they don't cut you the slack. There's too much competition. But like you said, it raises the bar for everybody. And one of the things that you just made me think of is, you know, Will Jardera from, from 11 Madison park, you know, he just has the book Unreasonable Hospitality, that book. I was listening to the audiobook about how, you know, he really wanted to become a shake shack general manager and Danny Meyer put him in 11 Madison because he thought it was a better fit. And, and, and then he talks about how he went from, you know, from being nothing to the number one restaurant in the entire world, beating, you know, per se, and, and, you know, the French Laundry and some of these other La Bernardin and other great restaurants. That story about unreasonable hospitality, I think if you apply that in any company, the way people treat each other, the employees treat each other, the way they treat the guests, the surprise and delight and shock and awe kind of techniques being used on a regular, regular basis where they're, it's not chalking on anymore. It's just part of the routine, really. Will just put your business in a, in a class by itself. And so I recommend that book for everybody right now, you know.

Yeah. So you. So you took your inspiration on pizza from the city.

Yeah, so what happened was, you know, obviously I love pizza. And then I took over this pizza restaurant in Boca Raton, and then I was flipping through Pizza Today magazine and the owner said, hey, what are you doing? And I said, you know, I'm gonna go to Las Vegas. And he's like, well, what are you going to go to Vegas for? And I said, well, they got a big pizza show and I want to meet this guy, Tony G. I couldn't even say Jim and Yanni at the time. You know, I couldn't, I couldn't figure out how to pronounce it. So I said, I'm going to meet this guy, Tony G. And he's like, yeah, so what? And I was like, well, he's a pizza acrobat and world champion, you know, many times over. And I think I want him to come to Florida and do some type of children's charity event. And what happened was Andy Roddick, the tennis player, his mother is in Boca Raton and she has the, she runs Andy's children's foundation. Scott Sapp from the rock band Creed also had a children's charity. And then the Sun Sentinels, the local newspaper, has a children's charity. So we put them all together and we had a three day weekend where we brought Tony in and he taught 250 kids how to spin dough. And we had magicians. And then he made some of the best pizzas that he made that he won on Food Network, won a gold medal on Food Network, won the world championships in Italy. And we auctioned off some of those pizzas and one of them we auctioned off with one of Scott Sapp's guitar from the rock band Creed. So he raised like 18 or $20,000 and gave it to the three charities. And then at the end of the weekend, Tony says, oh yeah, by the way, I, I'm giving a pizza class next week in, in Matica, California, if you want to come. You know, you can get certified as a, as a pizza maker by the Italian government and you become a classic, classic Italian pizzaiolo. And I said, you know, obviously if Tony, the best guy in the world is asking me to come, you know, I'm going to spend the money and spend the week. And then I did. And, and a year later, I wounded up competing in the best pizza in the United States in Orlando at the American Pizza Championship. And I won on my first attempt. So it was an incredible. I think I just had an incredible teacher, you know.

Okay, so what is the secret to a great crust? Now we all watch Dave Portnoy, right? You know, one bite, you all know the rules. And it's got to be just cheese. I mean, that's my purpose, preparation to go into New York for four days. Was watch as many Dave Portnoy reviews as I could, right? So I could understand, like what I was looking for in a good pie and. But, you know, they say it's the water in New York and that's why the bagels are so good and all of that. Like you're in South Florida that I guarantee it wasn't water out of the tap that you were putting in your.

You know, people, people thought that, that it was the water. And water does have something to do with, you know, if the water has too much mineral or, you know, hard water, that, that will, that would be a problem. What really was the problem in Florida was the temperature of the, of the flour and then the temperature of the finished product. So what happens is if you have a bag of flour and it's sitting in the kitchen day after day after day after day, and your kitchen is hot in the 90 degree range, which is not, you know, not, not unusual for Florida. And now you take that 90 degree flour, that whole bag and you dump it into the mixer. The Hobart mixer has, you know, a certain friction coefficient, it's called. What it'll happen is that temperature of that dough will surpass 110 degrees or so. And at that point the yeast dies. And when the yeast dies, it's not going to wake up again. So then you get a very flat pizza that snaps and kind of very flat bready and kind of texture. So it doesn't get that light airiness because the yeast didn't wake up and start eating the flour and changing it to carbon dioxide and simple sugar, giving it that light. And then the best pizza makers, like in, you know, in Italy, those guys want to show you the slice and they want you to see like a big bubble in there, like a cornice, to have the maximum effect so that the yeast has now done the digestion and the pizza is much more lighter and easier to digest. And that's the key when you're at the super, super high levels of competition that separate. And again, you can have a good day or a bad day, you can make a Great batch of dough or not a great batch. And when I was in Orlando, I brought my chef with me and I made 30 pizzas for practice. 30. So you could imagine that was about three hours straight of just making another pie, going back, making another pie, going back. And every time I'm trying to put the sauce exactly, I was using a squeeze bottle. So I was putting out like toothpaste, almost, you know, perfectly round. And then I was placing the truffles exactly where I want them and placing the green onion and. And then it's my turn to compete. And my chef says, you know, Steve, I think you should put a little black pepper on the crust. And I'm like, what are you talking about, Chef? I just made 30 pies in a row, and now you're telling me that I should put black pepper on the crust. And I'm about to go on right now, like, I'm next up, you know.

Yeah.

So I'm sitting there and I'm making the pizza. And you make four pizzas when you're in the competition, and then you put all four in the oven and you get to pick which one is the best one to give to the judges. And I. And I'm deciding, you know, what am I going to do? What am I going to do? And then finally my hand just goes by itself and reaches for the black pepper and goes around each of the pies. And then sure enough, as we, you know, when we looked at the finals, at the winning, you know, when I won, it was 211 to 207. There were four judges. And on one of the judges score sheet, it said black pepper on crust. A nice touch, nice. So we don't know if that swayed it, but, but it certainly made a difference. And then, like, what you were talking about earlier, about the upskirt, you know, looking at the bottom of the pizza and making sure that it's, you know, snappy and, and crunchy and, and has a, you know, kind of like a black polka dotted kind of look to it. That's, you know, your ideal kind of crust, you know.

Yeah. I said the word undercarriage. Like, you know, Dave Portnoy's like, ah, good undercarriage. And I said it like three times. And then my daughter threatened me was not to say it again in front of her friend. So.

But, you know, you say undercarriage, I say upskirts.

But, you know, I know what you're saying. The crust had these little air pockets, these bubbles in it. When it came out, it was like inflated around the edge of the pie. And then when you bit into that, it had just the right mixture of. Of kind of burnt texture, crispiness and air. And of course, the cheese and the sauce was great. And so I'm from Chicago, so I'm a Luminati's, Giordano's, Gino's East. That's what I. That's what I grew up with.

The.

You know, each slice of pizza is two and a half pounds. You can eat one, maybe two. You know, you gotta go. There's defibrillators everywhere in those places. So it's. I mean, it's just heavy, heavy pizza. So I never really got exposed to the New York, now Neapolitan style. Is that the classic New York style or is that something else?

No, Neapolitan is actually Naples from Italy. So that's with your double zero flour, your San Marzano tomatoes, your live yeast, you know, sea salt water, you know, olive oil. Very, very strict ingredients on the Neapolitan, you know, they have the two different police forces, you know, the. The VPN and the avpn, where you have to get certified and your ingredients have to get certified and all that. So then there's, you know, New York street slice. Now, the beauty, the beauty, I think, of the coal oven, you know, that super high temperature, like, you know, which is what we use at Anthony's Coal Fire Pizza, which is also part of burger fire. We have. We have 60 coal ovens, you know, and the beauty of that coal oven is that that pizza cooks so rapidly at 8 or 900 degrees is that the cheese is melting perfectly and has that creamy texture. You know, you go to New York and you have a street slice that's been baked at 500 or 550 in the baker's pride. And all of a sudden you. You got orange oil running down your sleeve.

Right.

Well, you know, and you're using those paper napkins, those white napkins to blot it. Right. Well, the pizza man didn't put any oil on the pizza. It's cheese disintegration because the pizza, you know, the cheese was sitting in there so. So long. So.

So what do you. What are you thinking? Like, four minutes is four minutes at 900.

I think at 900, you know, it could be done in 90 seconds or a minute 20. Yeah.

Really?

Yeah, yeah. I think those are the, you know, the typical for those. The very high wood fire and the coal fire both are doing that thing. And again, you're putting it very close to the fire. Another beautiful thing about when you're working with the live fire like that. So the fire is coming up over the top of the oven, you know, from the coal in one direction or the other. Right. The beauty of it is, is when you have a. Let's say you do put a mushroom pie in there, you know, or somebody wants spinach or something that has a lot of water content. When you lift that pie up on the paddle and you're lifting it up off the deck, the flames are going over the top beautifully like this, and they're steaming off any excess water. And that's called doming. And that. That doming effect really, you know, cooks the toppings and heats them up just properly and evaporates any residual water that's on the top of the pie there.

So is that, like, they lift and pause, like the experienced guys.

They lift and almost turn your pause without sliding the thing off.

The both turn our heads like. Like we're looking in an oven, and.

You'Re turning it, and you're turning it towards the fire to get the texture. And when you see it done, it's really, you know. You know, exactly what's going on. And the flavor effect is incredible. And then a great pie, you know, like the Italians are making. When that comes out, you should put a splash of some nice olive oil on it, a couple of leaves of, you know, fresh basil, if you like, you know, a little grate of Reggiano Parmigiano or. Or Pecorino Romano, which I did on the black truffle pizza that I won best pizza with.

Awesome. And then it wasn't enough that you won in the United States as the number one pizza maker. Somebody called you and said, we're having a global competition. What was that all about?

Yeah, so, you know, I thought it was my friends playing a joke with me. You know, I came home late one night. You know, I like. I always like closing, you know, and I particularly like closing on the busy nights, you know, because I always wanted to say, oh, you know, I. I was there when we. You know, we did 30,000 last Saturday night. And, you know, that was there at close. You know, I always liked that feeling, you know, that I was part of that. You know, that achieving that. That big sales goal or something. So. So they call me up and they say, you know, this is the. Obviously, they were speaking with a big Aussie accent and the. This is the global pizza Challenge. You know, we'd like you to come to Melbourne, Australia. And I was like, come on. You know, they hang up the phone and sure enough about, you know, 10 hours later, they call back again, and they say, no, no, wait, wait. This is really the Global Pizza Challenge. We heard that. You're the American Pizza Championship. You won the American Pizza Championship. You think you can come to Melbourne, Australia? And I said, well, how. How long does it take to get there? A couple of days? Well, as long as there's flights, I'll. I'll come on out. And. And I went there, and I remember getting there, and there's a long, long flight. About 26, 27 hours all together. And I hadn't shaven, and I was wearing a hoodie, and I looked scruffy. And I walk up to a tent, and they have the whole. The whole park decorated for pizza. There's ovens on the stage and everything. And there's three chefs all dressed in immaculate uniforms with all kind of ribbons and. And awards on their chest. And I walk up, and they're like. They look at me, and I see their eyes open up, like, looking at me, and they're like, can we help you? And I'm like. I'm like, the. I'm the American pizza champion. And I could see, like, their eyes roll, like, oh, my goodness. Like, are you kidding me? Spent $5,000 for this guy to. To come all the way to Australia, and now look at him. He's a bum. You know, so. So we had a little. Little friction on the exchange, you know, and they're like, well, why don't you go to your hotel and freshen up and do whatever? So I went to my hotel, and I had my uniforms all pressed, so now I had my chef jacket with all my companies all over. So mine. Mine kind of looks more like a NASCAR jacket than a. Then awards that, like, these chefs have. But it was kind of fun. And. And I had had my fingernails done because they take a lot of pictures of my nails when I'm making pizza. And I walked up, and the guys didn't recognize me, and I go, hey, you know, I'm the American pizza chef. You were just talking to me, like, three hours ago. And they go, oh, the vagabond. So that was my nickname. I was the vagabond for the competition. And then we had a great time. They. They had about 12 Australian competitors to win the Australian national championship. And then they went against us. They had Italian, Austria, Japan, Slovenia. I was from the U.S. they had Italy, France. So it was a great, like, competition. And then Simon Best, the Australian champion, he had run out of dough, and so I said, okay, why don't you use some of my dough? And Simon winded up beating me with my own dough, so. So in Australia, I get a, an Asterix, I get second place, but kind of with a, with an assist of first place there.

Well, you know what, the universe rewards those types of acts of generosity with good karma. So I'm sure, I'm sure it came back to you in some way.

Yeah, I think like I told you, for a busboy traveling the world to Australia and China and Paris, you know, all, all, all for somebody else paying, you know, to me, that, that's winning.

You know, your pizza reputation and, and your, your work took you to China, it's taken you. I've seen where you were making pizzas in all different countries with their local ingredients to try to come up with the conversation. We had. What would be the pizza in this region and what would it have to look like? What were some of those places where you tried to incorporate local ingredients into a pizza?

I think you and I were just talking about my most recent trip to Costa Rica, where.

That's right.

I have the, you know, the honor to be the adopted father of four girls and one boy. I have five children down there. And we went to Hako beach, which is known for the World Surfing Championships. Every August is held in Hako beach. And my friend had a pizza place, and I decided it was time to make Costa Rican pizza. And I had for many years. I, you know, I'm from New York. We don't, we don't understand Hawaiian pizza in New York. You know, we, we don't, you know, dull pineapple from a can doesn't really make sense on pizza with whatever you want to put it with, ham or bacon or Canadian bacon or whatever junk you had to throw with it, you know, so it always tasted metallic to me. And, and I never got it. And then I went to Costa Rica about five or six years ago, and I had a pizza with local ham and local Costa Rican fresh pineapple that's golden in color, like, like vibrant yellow, gold. And of course, it was a totally different taste and experience. So we knew that the Costa Rican people love what's called chicharron. Chicharron are chunks of pork. So we said, can we smoke some pork belly? Cut it into little tiny pieces, cubes, put it in the fryer so that it becomes like little bites of chicharron, put the thin slices of pineapple, bake that in the oven, and then when it comes out of the oven, can we finish it with some toasted coconut, which is very popular. Cocoa, they call it. So pina coco. And chicharron is the new. So while we were doing that, we. We wanted to get the blessing of Tony Gimignani, you know, since Tony had written the Pizza Bible. And the Pizza Bible has 23 different styles of pizza in it. So we called Tony to kind of tell him that we were making, you know, to get ready for chapter 24, you know, in the book, the next chapter. So we text him and say, hey, Tony, we're making Costa Rican pizza, man. We, you know, we want you to give your opinion. You know, we're putting chicharron, and we're putting pineapple, and we're putting coconut. And he texts back immediately, wow, that sounds great. And then we continue making our pizza, and about 10 minutes later, we get another text, and it goes, don't they like corn over there? You know, like, so here's. Here's Tony now thinking of, like, what he wants to put on it, too. Yeah. And I remember the first time after I had won best pizza in America. Now he has three Guinness Book of World Records and 13 world titles. So there's no competition between me and him at all. But I did say, hey, Tony, Tony, you know what I got? I got. I just opened a new burger joint, man. I'm going to be the first guy in America to win best pizza and best burger. And he's like. He's like, dude, I already got a burger place in Las Vegas I'm working on. He was so competitive that no matter what, you know. Well, and now he's serving his pizza at every single sports arena in San Francisco. So the Golden State warriors, The San Francisco 49ers, the baseball giants, the Vegas Knights in hockey, and the Vegas football team. So he's doing all of them. He just killing it, you know, what's his.

What's his brand with his pizza?

Does he have a. Well, he has several brands in Las Vegas. They're called Pizza Rock. Pizza Rock. In San Francisco, his main restaurant is called Tony's Pizza Napolitana. Everybody in the world tried to talk him out of it. You know, he said, no, you know, I wrote the pizza Bible. I'm going to make a pizza. I have three restaurants on the same street. I have, I think, six or eight different ovens. He has a wood oven, a gas oven, an electric oven, every coal oven. He has them all there. And he said, I'm going to make every single style of pizza. And everybody in the whole world, you know, Kept saying, you know, why don't you just do four styles? Why don't you do this? Well, last year, the store did $13 million in one single unit. So over a million dollars every month. So Tony stayed true to what he believed and, and, and was able to pull it off. He happens to be the best teacher in the world. He, he, he, he, he's able to pass his pizza skills onto his employees. He, he's created several world champions. Laura Meyer, I know, is one of his disciples. I think she has four or five world titles. A lot of people connected to him have, have great world titles. And, you know, so it's just great to be around people that are just spreading the knowledge and spreading the business and, and just really just doing it for the, for the love of the industry.

You know, you obviously have a pursuit of excellence when it comes to food. How did you take that into BurgerFi and what was the vision?

Well, at first, at first I thought, you know, my boss had lost his mind a little bit.

Well, I think every, every, everybody thinks.

That, you know, I said, you know, why, why are we going to do a burger joint? You know, the last restaurant we did together was an Italian restaurant. You know, what are you thinking? You know, do you think everybody can just open up a burger joint and just do it? But as we studied it and I went across the country, you know, to In N Out and to Whataburger and to five guys and, and to Shake Shack and to Five Napkin and Spotted Pig and Deep dbgb, what I noticed in five guys in particular, you had all these great burger brands, but there really was not, and there still is not a burger brand that's really for families. And there's still not a burger brand that's really, there's not even one that's really themed only for women. And I believe that if I ever make a burger brand, you know, specifically for women. So our design, because we knew that there was this big white space for families, and McDonald's used to be a great family brand back in the early 70s. You know, the milkshake still had milk in them. The, the, the meat was still good back then, the potatoes. And then Somehow they got 19 chemicals in the french fry oil. I don't know, you know, how you could possibly do it that much from one extreme to the other. We use. Just for the record, I actually still.

Have a French McDonald's french fry from 1970.

Yeah, you're saving that. It'll be worth money on ebay.

Looks, Just looks, looks. Looks like the day I bought it.

So we have, you know, oil, potatoes and salt and we think that that's good enough for the ingredients for french fries. We don't think you need more than that.

Right.

So anyway, going back to the story, as I looked at all of these great burger brands, in and out, the meat was fresh. But guess what? It was loaded with antibiotics and steroids. Five guys, the same thing. The meat was fresh. Wendy's, the meat was fresh, but it was still loaded with steroids, growth hormones and antibiotics. I'm really saddened today. Very. It happened today, I think, or yesterday on the earnings call for Tyson's Chicken. Tyson had completely moved away and was serving no antibiotics, never ever in their chicken. They said that that marketing campaign failed and that it hurt their profitability. And now they're going back to antibiotic induced and growth hormone induced chicken. So I'm probably not going to eat much more chicken knowing that. But as I started to identify that, I was like, how can we have to buy Mexican Coca Cola? Because the Mexican coca Cola is made with natural cane sugar. And in America they don't make it with natural cane sugar. They make it with high fructose corn syrup. But in Mexico, they realize that that high fructose corn sirup leads to childhood obesity. So they don't allow it. But we allow it in America. You know, when we went to, you know, Saudi Arabia, we, oh, you know, we're antibiotic free. They said, so what? Everybody's antibiotic free. What do you, you know, there was no special selling point. So in new in America, the, the fluid supply system had been so bastardized that it was wide open for us that if we said we're going to have meat with no steroids, no growth hormones or antibiotics, it's going to be grass fed and finished with corn. You know, we're going to try to have no sodas without, with, with high fructose corn syrup. We're going to have ice cream and frozen custard made with, with no high fructose corn syrup. You know, then we started to question, you know, hey, can we get gummy bears that are, that are organic gummy bears? You know, and we started to get crazy and get obsessed. Then we changed the bacon and we got a nitride free bacon. You know, we were using 100% peanut oil at the very beginning for a very, very long time. So all of these things that we did, we realized would be very important to mothers, very important to teenage women. We made a veggie burger that was quinoa lentils, carrots, zucchini, sauteed mushrooms and onions. That was one out of every seven burgers we sold at the beginning because we didn't have chicken on the menu and everything. So all of that was by design. The fixtures in the restaurant, you know, dim the lights and everything, and the nice wooden finishes was all to appeal to families and women. And I think that's what we need in America. We need more of those kind of comfortable neighborhood family burger joints.

Yeah. So I think I'm going to share personal experience. It's a sample size of 4, so please, nobody take health advice out of this anecdote. But my wife's grandparents both lived into their 90s, and my sister in law's grandparents, her, her grandfather passed when he's 103, and then this weekend her, her grandmother turned 100 and she's still alive. Both of them lived on a farm, both of them raised cattle. Both of them had their own gardens and ate their own vegetables and ate their own foods. And we do the best we can with organic and hormone, but it's like you just can't get away from it. I mean, it's like how like to actually eat like that and not, not take stuff out of the group because you don't really know what's in stuff. I mean, we do Chick Fil a a lot because the perception is, is that Chick Fil A is somehow healthier. And maybe it is, maybe it isn't. I don't know what Shaq Big Chicken's gotten his. I don't know how he gets his breasts of chicken so big, but they're apparently quite large. But I mean, how do you, I mean, at the end of the day, you're just like, you know, I'm hungry. And we don't, you know, we don't find a way to get all organic, all natural foods, even though we try to eat as healthy as we possibly can. And you just wonder about, you know, how much of an impact all of these hormones and chemicals are having on our, on our quality of our and length of our lives.

Well, there's no question about it. All these cancers and prostate cancer and all these other cancers that are happening, or there's no question that those are the result of all these chemicals in food. And you know, the red dye, I think I'm, I'm extremely concerned about it. You know, I think that growing your own garden is a, is a great idea for everybody. You know, obviously it's not sustainable in a lot of environments, but in Costa Rica. I'm fortunate to live next to one of what you call those blue zones, you know, where people eat rice and beans for breakfast every morning with one egg and they have a cup of coffee and they're walking around and they're tending to their garden and they, they're not sitting at a desk for 8 or 10 or 12 hours by the time you add in the car and the commute and everything like that. So they have a lifestyle and then, you know, they call it Tico Time. So if you have, you know, if this was, if this podcast was supposed to start at 4 and I showed up somewhere between 4 and 418 or 4 20, you would be, that would be expected. You know, that's Tico time. And you wouldn't even have said like, Steve, you're late. You would have just went along like, well, but that's four, he's here by 420. And nobody makes a big deal here. They would stress out, you know, like, that was disrespectful to. Why, why did you leave Jeff hanging for 18 minutes? You know, there they, they don't, they don't stress out about that, you know. Yeah, so there's some interesting things of that you learn in life, you know. You know, I think that you and I connected right away because of a lot of similarities about, you know, believing in hard work. And, you know, I think our core values align and, you know, I think we need to have more conversations about core values, about helping others. I mean, I know you were there. I don't think the Titus center was paying you a large fee to be the keynote address speaker, but you were doing it out of your love and for the students. And when I was thinking about the event this morning, and I was thinking how this guy, Dr. Hayes is a genius because here he is, he makes his own miniature conference for two days so that the students actually get the feel of like going to a Las Vegas show with the breakout sessions and the keynotes and, and meeting high level people with multiple brands and, you know, really successful operators and franchisors and, and legends, you know, that write books like yourself and, and I remember when I met Dina Dwyer a couple years ago as well, and that's what it's about, you know, it's about sharing these core values. And, you know, if you just work hard and if you just, you know, put a little money on the side and you just buy good company stocks and just leave it there and just forget about it and then come back 10 years later, all of A sudden, you know, you're. You're in a good place. I think if we talk more about core values, you know, the days of, you know, crushing the enemy and squeezing the most out of our employees, you know, and, you know, those days are gone, thank goodness, in a way, you know.

Yeah.

And that's what I think, why you and I connected so well. And I think that's. That's what, you know, I think why we want to have these podcasts, and. And that's what I think we need to talk about is bringing back core values. I mean, bringing back the American dream. Like. Like the owner, the founder of BurgerFi said. He said, I wanted that if you work hard, in two years from now, I want that person to be a general manager running a store, you know, making, you know, 10 times what they made as an hourly employee, you know, and that really was the intention that we went in. Yeah, we wanted to make some money on top of it. And, you know, yeah, the founders made a little bit of money, but we really wanted to change lives. And I know that's what you like to do in the franchise business as well, but that. That, to me is. Is the beauty of this business. That's, I think, why you and I met, you know, and then I think that's why I'm on this podcast.

I've always liked being a gardener and planting things and watering things and growing things. There's a satisfaction from that. And you talk about Dr. John Hayes, who runs the Titus center at Palm Beach Atlantic University, and he had an incredible. I mean, he wrote, basically authored David Sandler's bicycle book, which people still use today as a basis for Sandler sales training. He was the head of many different franchise systems. Now, here's a guy who's probably 70, I think he said, or pushing it or right at it, or a little over it. And he has to raise the funds for the Titus center, and he puts this on. He's got all of these students, and they're so proud to say, I've been in Dr. Hayes class and I took his classes. They get a concentration of franchising out of there, and then he helps place these kids. And it's not a huge cohort of kids. I mean, it's less than 100 students that are, I think, in the franchising concentration program with him. But he's just decided that that's the way that he's going to make his difference in the world by creating this incredible environment for teaching young people the business model that's meant so much to all of us. And then when you shared with me that you've adopted the five children and how you invest in them and how you spend time in Costa Rica and you make a difference there, plus the charity work that you did for children early in your life, I really resonate with that because there's just, I mean, those are the people that are going to run the country. Those are the people that are going to run the world. And the more that we can invest early in these young generations and give them these examples of hard work, examples of success, pouring all of anything that we've learned. And that's why I love doing the speaking. It's because it's an opportunity just to basically condense these lessons that I've learned, picked up all these scars and somebody else just can write all these things down and walk out the door with them and use them in their life and that's it. Like, that's, that's the end of it. I mean, that's where it ends. If there's anything that happens after that. I had a bunch of people reach out to me after the conference and, you know, looking for different opportunities or different business relationships and, and sure, that stuff always comes from it, but the opportunity to really just take a moment and slow down and give somebody something that cost you nothing but can mean everything to a decision that they're making in their life and make an impact in their path and their trajectory, like that should be something that we are all obligated to do.

Yeah, it's really great to be part of that magic that's at the Titus Center. I think you met my, my partner, Mitchell Nolan, who is a graduate from the Titus Center.

Yeah.

So, you know, Mitchell. Mitchell was one of the, you know, top students in Dr. Hayes's class. He's 22 years old. He has a, an MBA. He's, you know, squeaky clean. And, you know, and I'm the exact opposite. So he has, you know, the, the bow tie in his, you know, in his profile picture and everything. And, you know, and he was so pro franchising and, you know, franchising is the way. And then I, I said, hey, come over here, Mitchell. I want to talk to you. There's a few scams that are going on out there in franchising. There's a lot of unreputable sales fa, you know, franchise sales organizations that. There's these brokers that, you know, they always talk about how many deals they, they signed, but they never talk about how many successful franchisees they have on the other end of the tunnel, you know, how come none of them ever sell that way? I kept saying to Mitchell and I just kept jabbing the kid and jabbing him and say, you know, we gotta, we gotta do something, we gotta disrupt the franchise industry. So Mitchell and I said, we, we want to start a franchise group called Vetted. That's the name of the company. And Vetted, of course was taken. So we took V, E, T, T and the number three and the letter D. So that's our, that's our logo. And, and we said what if, what if all the only franchises that we represent have great food and guest experience, simplicity of systems, strong labor and inventory control, powerful operational marketing support and positive unit economics. And what if we only wanted to work with brands that had those five pillars or we would help them get those five pillars and that our ultimate goal is for 70% of all franchisees to be profitable. So that's what we've done and that's what we started. We just, we just founded it, you know, the end of last year, we just started this year. We already represent a few brands, but we, we feel that we're gonna, we're gonna put, you know, these, these franchise sales organizations. These guys are not gonna like us so much. Now there's certain ones that do a fantastic job. You know, they're, they, they're very upfront, they have very great disclosure. They talk about the cons as much as they talk about the pros. You know, so those companies, you know, we have no problem with. It's the, it's the Burger Eams of the world, you know, that, that stole people's franchisee, you know, franchise fees and ran away with the money and, and other companies, you know, the Quiznos debacle of years ago, those type of things, right, that we want to, you know, we want to protect people from. And I think that, I think that, you know, Mitchell and I will, will also be good public speakers because he'll have the 22 year old's view of franchising and I'll have the 62 year old view of franchising.

So what are the services that Vetted will provide for companies.

For early franchise awards? We provide legal, you know, we work with the legal team to get FDD and FDD compliance. We're very strong in operations. We do some great franchisee recruitment under, you know, using social media and LinkedIn and, and other stuff like that. So those are our basic, basic services. And then we try to enter into our deals where you know, we will help the brand grow in exchange for some equity in the brand so that, you know that we're not going to leave them, we're going to be with them. And, and again, we think that that's the smart way to sell franchises. And the, you know, that we got. That's what got me and Mitchell fired up is that we kept hearing Matt Haller walk around talking about responsible franchising.

Right?

Now, I've been, I've been a member of IFA for, I think, 12 years. But you, you, you tell me if I'm incorrect and have before two years of the last two years, have you heard responsible franchising for the 10 years prior to that?

Have not.

No, I have not either. And I took very much offense to that is, hey, here I am paying $5,000 a year or more sometimes in my IFA membership fees, and turns out that they're not even vetting the other members that are in the club. What was, what was the famous Groucho Marx quote? I don't want to be a member of a club that wants me to be a member.

Any club that would have me.

That's right. So I started to get a really bad feeling about that. And then Mitchell coined the phrase, you know, well, that makes it sound like responsible franchising is kind of like responsible driving. Like, isn't. Aren't you always supposed to be a responsible driver? You know, like, weren't you always supposed to be about responsible franchising? So I'd like to hear your opinion on. And I know responsible franchise is very important to your company and, and it's been. But I don't, I don't think you like the word being tossed around so lightly by the franchise association. I don't think.

Yeah, I mean, even great franchising is hard. And if you look at the great brands that have been around for 2, 20, 30, 40 years, you can go back in their history and they've all had some upheaval, some problems, some challenge with, you know, group of franchisees or, you know, or just, just something that went wrong. Because the, you know, franchising is the promise of a proven model. And the challenge is, is that things change. Customer acquisition changes. I mean, you know, when I was first started franchising, I mean, we were using the Yellow Pages. So where has that changed, right? All of the permutations of lead aggregators and then pay per click, and now you've got Meta and Google and oops, we broke our system. Now everybody has to figure out how Pay twice as much for leads while we're trying to get this stuff fixed. And so all of these. So I think what it comes down to is, are you committed enough to your franchisees, number one, to be honest and transparent with them, to have a relationship where it's like, hey, I'm not going to keep telling you that everything's easy and everything's great. We're working as hard as we can. You're working as hard as you can, but we're in a competitive space and everybody's competing and everybody's working on the same stuff. So you've got to be vigilant with respect to the things that you focus on and where you put your money. The other thing is you have to be committed to, you know, the relationship with these people long term. Some of them are going to go through a divorce, some of them are going to get sick, some of them aren't going to be that good at the business. So you've got to slow down and you got to take time with those people and find a way to transition them where they don't get hurt and as little as possible. And you sacrifice your fees, you sacrifice these things to make sure that, like, okay, maybe that franchise didn't. You said 70% of them being profitable, that was your goal, right? Well, that would imply that 30% of them, you know, are, are there's going to be some challenge where they're breaking even or worse. So, you know, you've, you've got to, you know, you, you, you've got to make sure that you never as, as hard as franchising is that you never lose your heart for people and that you never let the, you know, your money get in front of the right decision for somebody. And if somebody made a mistake and got into something or something went wrong for them, then, like, you just got to do the right thing by them. And as long as you're willing to do that, get on the call, get face to face with people, go sit in people's living rooms if you need to, and try to be resolution focused. I talk about, you know, football's all about angles and leverage, and certain businesses are all about angles and leverage. You got to maintain your, your leverage. You gotta, you gotta constantly have angles because it's a transactional business and if you're not winning, you're losing and all of that. Well, franchising is a respect and resolution business. Like, we don't, we're not successful unless the franchisees are successful. They need us to be effective, efficient Professional, you know, pursue excellence and make sure that we're doing the homework to give them the right guidance and provide the right support. And it's just not a short term relationship. It's not, it's, it is not, it is not a transactional relationship with franchisees. So I think when things get irresponsible is when people are focused on when the transaction gets in the way or obscures the views of what the real commitment is to the franchise system. And you see over time that doesn't mean you're soft and that doesn't mean you give in to every whim and wish that people want. But you lead, you're accessible as a leader. You take responsibility for things that don't go well. You create radical transparency in truth in your organization. You, you be data driven and numbers first so that you people are dealing with honest information when they're making decisions and then you hang in there when times are tough and you just, and you, you, you know, you just, and if you do that over time, the right thing's going to happen. The franchisees are going to make the plays that they need to make to be successful. Your, your team's going to make the plays that they need to be successful. But that's just it. None of that sounds like easy, none of it sounds like a shortcut. And you know, it's, it's, you can't, it's a responsibility. When you place franchisees in a system that is like you own them, you own the outcome for them. So as long as, and any, anything other than that is probably irresponsible.

I, I think the same way, that's why I, I always felt that I could never use brokers because to me during the learning process to learn about our brand and learn about our history and learn about you know, stores closures during COVID and to learn about why we don't have high fructose in the corn syrup in the soda. All of those things that really mattered wouldn't matter to, to a broker in my opinion.

You know, that's right.

And, and so, and then I also thought that that relationship building during the, the process is critical to understand, you know, why that person is buying the business. Is it, you know, is it just another, you know, restaurant because they have other restaurants and they can't build out their portfolio anymore of the first brand or you know, looking for a second brand in the same trade area or they first time franchisees, you know, so all of those nuances and finding out what they're there for you know, getting them in the Discovery Day and, you know, actually getting them to. To. To work in the restaurant or play around and, you know, see themselves in the business of what a day in the life would be. I think, to me, those are too critical to farm out to a broker or a franchise sales organization.

Yeah, that's fair. Steve, what's next for you? You've got vetted. That's starting. And do you have any other personal restaurant ideas that you think about and maybe one day you're gonna launch?

Well, I promised. I promised my daughters that we would. We live in a very, very, very teeny, tiny town called Opala, Costa Rica. And it's very quiet, agricultural town and very poor. So my goal is to open up a little tiny coffee shop in the town. And I joke around that I'm going to call it Buckstar instead of Starbucks, you know, in reverse, and just to have a little bit of Costa Rican coffee every day because they drink coffee throughout the day and something that people can afford, but that the. There'll be free Wi Fi. There'll be arts and crafts, because my kids are all artists, and their mother's an artist, and she actually, you know, is pretty good painter. So we can have, like, a little art studio so the kids can come there. And I just want to make a safe space where kids can come and eat and. And get a little, you know, egg sandwich or something. I'll start off with probably just donuts and coffee and then expand the menu as we go. That's. That's going to be my. My final love project. And then, you know, I think. I think what we'd like vetted to actually become is we. We, you know, selling is okay, and it's nice, and we want to help brands grow and whatever, but I think what we would work best at is that we would partner with some. Some people that have private equity money or some. Some private investors, and that we would actually run an incubator for small brands and. And help them get started, you know?

Yeah.

And I think that would be great. And if we could do a couple of those. We, We. We love. I. Like I told you, we love the idea of a burger brand that's exclusively for women. You know, geared towards women. Men will still eat there anyway, but. But that is geared.

Well, sure, if that's where the women are.

Exactly. We think Asian food is finally getting accepted. And then what you were talking about before, listen, if I could afford to go to True Food Kitchen every single day and sweet greens and. And kava And a couple of those other places, you know, I would, I would eat there, you know, constantly. The problem is that they're, you know, their costs are very high because the food is organic and, and it's great. But I hope that this is the first time in history that Americans, and young Americans in particular will start, support those, those helpful brands instead of, you know, going back and, and eating the, the unhealthier foods, the fried foods or whatever. And don't get me wrong, I love fried chicken and fried everything, but I think first, you know, we have to cut it down to once a month, you know. Yeah, stuff like that.

Yeah, for sure. Well, Steve, this has been great having you on today. I really appreciate it. Particularly enjoyed our pizza conversation, especially since I was just in New York this last week and observationally, and this is kind of along the lines of what you're just talking about, and we walked between five and ten miles a day. I mean we went to get gelato at this great gelato place and. But it's like, well, it's any, my daughter's like anything under two miles we're walking. And so it's not uncommon to go for a 20 or 25 minute walk. 25,000 steps is what they did on their day. I had to work a little bit, so I didn't walk with them as much. But you have all this great food, best food in the world. I mean, just like you said, if it's not good, it's gone. So just, it's all just food and drink and generally the people are in pretty good shape there. Like they're just, they're walking all the time. And I realized, I mean, the observation I made to my wife on the way home was I didn't realize how much I didn't walk at home. I mean, I'm seated a lot. I walk to my car, I drive and then of course I go and I pay to work out. When, if you, if you would walk all day and walk everywhere, you wouldn't have to do that. So, you know, it's, it's healthy. Lifestyles is, it's, we just, we just don't have it. It's not built in here. Healthy eating, healthy activity. It's just not built into the way that we function. And, and I agree with you, I like going to clean eats. I don't know if you've seen that chain. It's a franchise model. They've got great stuff there. But yeah, I mean it's, it's more expensive. I walk out of there With a, a good meal. I'm not fully satiated, but I know that I ate really clean and really healthy and, and it was good and it was a little expensive. But you know, I go there anytime that I have the time to do it. So.

But I expected, I expected that these home ready meal things, you know, the blue apron and all those chef things, you know, I thought that those would catch on, you know, a little bit more than they did, but of course they don't. Again, I think that unfortunately we've been programmed by the, you know, by the food producers. It's an oligopoly in the, in the grocery store. Only about seven stores control, seven companies control most of the grocery store, you know, the Unilevers and Car Grill and Procter and Gamble and so on. But the bastardization and the chemicalization of the food and the sugar, we, our FDA did not protect us. And again, a lot of times, you know, we, we get this very cavalier American attitude. Oh, you know, we don't, I don't need my seat belt. I don't, you know, I don't need somebody to tell me how to protect myself, that I shouldn't smoke around kids and you know, all these crazy cavalier attitudes when, hey, maybe we're just trying to look out for you when you might be making a mistake for yourself, you know. Yeah. And, and then one, one closing note. Since this is a New York pizza show, we're going to give you the hottest pizza place in New York City right now. It's actually in Bushwick, Brooklyn, okay. And it's called Rosie. This is Rosie's Pizza Bar.

Okay? Rosie's Pizza Bar.

Rosie's Pizza Bar. Founded by a guy named Julio Adriani who has won several world championships and then his best friend Aurelio. And the pizza that they're making there is, is Italian style, light, great, great tomatoes and toppings. Very eclectic restaurant, but definitely one of the top in New York on the list.

We'll hit it next time. Steve, if you had one sentence to make an impact in someone's life, what would that be?

One sentence or a few? I'm going to use the one that I close out my emails with and the one that my mother told me, you know, as her last words, and my mother said to me, work hard and help as many people as possible.

Beautiful. Steve Lieber, thank you for being on the home front with Jeff Duden today. Steve, how can people get in touch with you?

You can contact me at stevebergerfi.com and LinkedIn. Steve Lieber, Twitter @Steve Lieber and 305-409-3594. That's 305-409-3594.

That's Steve Lieber. L I E B E R Steve, thank you again for being on the home front and thank you, everybody for listening. Have a good day.