Tom Rowland: Hooked on Success | On the Homefront with Jeff Dudan #86

Welcome everybody to on the Home Front with Jeff Duden. Thank you for tuning in. Just a quick reminder before we get rolling, if you enjoy our podcast, take a second to drop down to that comment or review section to leave us feedback. And of course, like or subscribe, whether you're listening on Apple, YouTube or Spotify, we want to hear from you. And if you haven't already, check out at the Home Front pod on Instagram to stay up to date on new episodes and additional content. Today on the Home Front, we have an incredibly special guest. Welcome, Tom Roland.

How you doing?

I'm doing great, Tom. Really appreciate you being on. Tom is a expert fisherman, fishing guide, television with an incredible television show, and now a very successful podcaster all around fishing and guiding. So excited to dig in with you, Tom. I was mentioning that, you know, we, we come to the Keys, we bring our boat down, we go fishing. So, you know, in the, in the weeks and months leading up to that consume so much of your content. Excited to meet you and thanks for being on the Home Front.

Where do you like to go in the Keys?

We go to Islamorada.

Okay, nice.

It's generally our spot. And then sometimes we'll charter out of Key West.

Okay. Two great places.

Yeah.

Fantastic. Yeah, that's great. Well, I'm, I'm happy to have you as a, as a watcher of the, of the show. We've had a. A great time producing that over the years. This year is, is 19 years. This season is the 19th season, so we're getting ready. We've actually filmed some shows for the 20th season, which is hard to even imagine that it's gone on that long, but it has. And we've had a great time. We've had a great time doing it.

How do you stay out of the sun? Man, your skin looks good.

Well, you cover up like a long time ago. I guess I am one of the very first people to ever discover the, the buff. Do you know what a buff is? The thing that covers your face. You see all the Guides and the Keys wearing it?

Yes.

Well, one of my clients brought that to me so long ago. They said, I don't know what this thing is. My wife gave it to me. I think they wear it when they're riding motorcycles. And I looked at it and I was already wearing this. I was wearing a Patagonia thing. There was a. There was a guide in the Keys named Marshall, Marshall Cutchen, and he was the first person I ever saw wear anything over their face. And at the first time, you saw him, you just thought, this. That guy's insane. Like, what? You know, it's super hot down there and everything. But then I went to Costa Rica and everybody got so sunburned, and I had one of these. It was a Patagonia capeline face mask. And I had one, and I thought, well, man, I'm so sunburned. I'm just going to try this thing. And I really liked it. And so I went back and started wearing it in the keys, and it was all baggy. It didn't fit well. And then one of my clients brought me this buff and I started wearing that. And then they turned into a nice sponsor of the show. And now literally everyone down there wears them. But that's how you stay out of the sun. A hat and sunglasses and. And like the buff covering your face. It's a lifesaver in. I mean, literally a lifesaver. I had melanoma taken off my back, but I haven't had anything on my face. So, yeah, that's a good thing to stay out of the sun.

Hats don't do it because it's the reflection, so it's getting you from every angle and you don't realize it when you're. When you're out there, but, man, really, really important. And I know as we use a variety of guides down there, and if. If they haven't taken care of it, they really, really have a lot of sun damage.

Oh, you can see it. Yeah. But the older guys, you know that, that we're doing a long time before, you know, things like the buff. And, you know, even a big, wide, brimmed hat isn't good because usually, usually it's so windy that that thing's blowing all over the place and that doesn't work. So, you know, a lot of guys did not take care of their son, take care of their face, because they didn't have any other choice. I mean, they were doing the best they could. But I don't really wear sunscreen that much. I just cover up. I don't think sunscreen's great for you. I can't imagine it's great for you. I don't know that it's not good for you. It's just got a list of ingredients this long on the back of it. I can't imagine that's the best thing to have that every single day. So I just try to cover up.

Yeah. 20 years from now, they're going to figure out that's what's given everybody skin cancer. Maybe know, time, time, time reveals All.

Yeah.

Tom, you've had an incredible career growing up in Chattanooga, then going out west, working in Jackson Hole. Would you care to share with us a little bit about your journey?

Yeah. No, I mean my journey exactly like you. Like you said, I started out in Chattanooga fishing with my dad, and we had a. I had a great childhood, but mostly what we were doing here was just fishing with crickets and worms for largemouth bass and. And, you know, bluegill. And I loved fishing. I can remember he took me trout fishing one time. And it wasn't that, you know, we didn't go. We had a river that was pretty close, and one of his friends, you know, asked us to go and we. We caught some fish and they were really pretty, and I thought they were super cool, and the whole river was. Was amazing. And I just kind of thought at that point, you know, one of these days I'm going to learn how to trout fish. And I used to get the Outdoor Life magazines and the Field and Stream magazines, and. And you would go through there and there'd be some guy backpacking and cooking trout over the fire and fly fishing. And I just thought that was so cool. But that's not how we fished. And so when I went to college, I just really, really had this yearning to try that and to do that. And I don't even know where you did it, but the pictures look different in the back of those magazines and everything. And so I came upon an opportunity to work in Yellowstone national park, and I went to Yellowstone national park, got the job there. I was a room attendant, which means that you got to clean toilets. And still to this day, I say it's the best job I've ever had. Because they would give you 16 rooms. You go in there and you clean these rooms as quickly as you could, as long as they pass the standard. And you were free to go for the rest of the day. You didn't get paid anymore if you left, but you were free to go. And so, man, the Yellowstone river was just up the road and I could go up there and fish for the rest of the afternoon. And. And it didn't get dark until, you know, nine or ten o' clock in the West. And so I just. I just thought that was the greatest thing ever. And the water was super clear. And it was the first time in my life that I'd ever been able to fish, which was more like hunting, where you see the fish in the water, you have to sneak up on it. If you just walk up on it, it swims off, it's scared, you know. And I was like, oh, that's, that's different. I've never seen that happen before. And so I got a new appreciation about fishing. And then I was terrible at fly fishing, but I learned how to do it a little bit, enough to catch a couple of fish. And then the next summer, I thought that I wanted to go to Alaska. And my dad was wise enough to think, you don't have a car, you don't know anyone in Alaska, you've never been there before. Maybe, you know, without pushing me away from that idea, without telling me it was a bad idea, he just kind of steered me in a slightly different direction. And there was an opportunity to go to a guide school in Jackson, Wyoming. And that's how I ended up in Jackson, Wyoming. I went to that guide school. I got hired out of the guide school by the gentleman that ran it, Joe Bressler, and ended up working for him for seven years. And it was amazing drift boat guiding on some of the most beautiful rivers in the country. And the fishing was amazing. And that led me to Key west, which I wanted to fish year round. I didn't want to just. I tried to spend the winter in Jackson, Wyoming. That's how I ended up in Key west, because it's, it's cold. Very, very, very cold. And I went about as far away from there as you possibly. And honestly, I just wanted to fish all year round. I didn't want. I didn't want to work as a snowmobile guide or a hunting guide like, like many of my friends were and that. And I wasn't really a skier like they were. So Key west suited me a little bit better. Got my business going down there. And you know, that turned into trying to first just learn my way around and get decent at, at guiding. And then many years later, I entered a couple of tournaments, happened to do well in the tournaments. And I really like the tournaments. I liked the. It was kind of like a boat race in the morning. And then, you know, it was kind of like the same feeling I had when I was a high school wrestler of like there was this, you know, you had the butterflies in your stomach. There was competition. And what made the tournaments most exciting to me is that I was learning at a level and a speed that was impossible without the tournaments. For example, you got to see all the different people. And then there had this huge board that showed you what everyone caught. And so you knew, like, I saw where that guy was and he caught all that. I saw where that guy was. And he caught nothing. And, you know, you. You saw where you stacked up and. And just the amount of learning and how quickly I was learning made me want to fish more and more tournaments. And that led me to do a. A professional redfish tournament with. With my partner Rich, that's on tv. And that was kind of like bass fishing or rodeo cowboying, where you. You got to go from one place to another, and every weekend's a different spot. And at that time, I was starting my family. I had two babies at home with my wife, and not a great time to be leaving, leaving home, even though I kind of thought that, you know, this could possibly, you know, be a breakthrough to a. To a new level of, you know, sponsorship is what I was thinking about. And, you know, I kind of had enough of that when a hurricane came through Key west, and we were in Louisiana, and my two boys were there with my wife, and they had to seek shelter in the. In the local fish house with no windows. And, you know, they were with my friends, and they were safe, and everybody was okay, but I just decided I don't want to do that anymore. And that's how we started the TV show. We started thinking about what is it that we could do that's similar to this, where we could spend all our time at home? And that's. That was the birth of saltwater experience. So. Interesting. That's about as quick as I can make it, I think.

Well, I tell you, 65 either wins or top five finishes and in tournaments later. And interesting. So I was in the disaster restoration business, and I was chasing hurricanes for better part of 15 years. And I had a similar experience when, after Katrina, and I was driving home in the middle of the night, I realized I had three small children at home, and I realized that I was constantly. We were working in the Caribbean, in Puerto Rico and Hawaii and all over the place, and I decided to sell all of our offices in the Southeast and franchise the business, because that was going to allow me to be home and live life on my terms and bring people to me. So when I read that about you, I'm like, oh, man. Exact same inflection point. Hurricane gave you this realization that you. You know, you. You want to be around the people that you care the most about that you're responsible for, and people can make a choice, and you can make a decision to still pursue your dreams and be successful and accommodate a family in doing so.

There's no question. Do you remember what hurricane that was where you. You had that Hurricane Katrina Katrina. That's okay. You said Katrina. Sorry. The one that. That was. Was for me was Wilma.

Got it.

And you probably did some. You were probably working on Wilma at some point somewhere.

We did.

But yeah, that one. That one leveled Key West. Yeah. It really wasn't the wind that did the most damage. It was a storm surge after just a slow rise, about four and a half feet of water we got in our house. That was. That'll do it. Yeah, for sure.

When you move to Key west, you had been fly fishing and guiding for a living. Was your intent that you were going to be a fly fisherman doing bone fishing and tarpon fishing and things like that?

Exactly.

And did you. How did you transition to more traditional inshore and offshore methods?

Well, that happened on its own, kind of, because I. I felt like I was pretty good at. At fly fishing and fly fishing guiding. And my original goal was that I would go into these other tournaments where you could use fly gear, but you could also use regular gear and bait. And the tournaments were this. This series called the Red Bone Series. And the Red Bone Series would raise money for cystic fibrosis. And while it was a charity tournament, it was still incredibly competitive. Like all the guides wanted to swear. This was before social media, and it's before so many other ways that people, websites and everything else where, where you can, you know, kind of show what it is that you do. The way that we could differentiate. Differentiate ourselves from other guides would be to win these tournaments or do well in these tournaments. And so while it was for charity behind the scenes, it was incredibly competitive between the. Between the guides. So I thought I could go in there and if I had a really good fly angler, we could maybe win one of those tournaments or at least compete with the bait guys and with the. With the. The spin fishermen. And I was the. Actually the first one. We did pretty well like that, but quickly realized that, man, you. It is really. I don't care how good you are. Some of these guys are as good with bait and spinning rods as. As anyone I've ever seen is with a fly rod. And so then when you're that good with bait and, and when I say good with bait, it. There's a lot of things that go into bait fishing that people don't realize. First of all, you have to have the mechanical skills to be able to throw almost weightless shrimp, you know, to. To a target and be as accurate, if not more accurate, than you can be with a fly rod. And these fish are very spooky they're in shallow water, so you have to lead them or, or play this situation the right way. But then there's all this other things that go into acquiring bait and, and keeping it alive and, and all this. There's an entire learning process that goes into bait fishing that I didn't know about. And so after getting slaughtered many times by all the bait fishing guys, I thought, well, I think I'm going to need to learn how to do that, because what I really want to do is I really want to win those tournaments or do well in those tournaments, or at least be a competitor in these tournaments. And it became more and more clear that I was going to need to do that. I got a couple of good customers who were very good at spin fishing that helped me to make that transition and to start learning that. You know, a lot of fly fishermen believe that, oh, anybody can catch them on bait. Probably anybody can catch one on bait, but these guys are catching like 50, right? And to do that, it's. It takes a tremendous amount of skill. And especially, you know, it's the same kind of fishing as. As fly fishing. You're pushing a boat through there, you're seeing the fish, you're making this cast to them. But when you make 10 perfect casts at, say, a permit, which is a very difficult fish to catch in the Florida Keys, and if you make 10 perfect casts with a fly rod to a permit, maybe you catch one maybe on a good day. The guys that I started fishing with, they made 10. Every cast was perfect. And if they made 10 perfect cast to 10 permit, they caught 10 permit.

Wow.

And I was like, whoa, this is fun. Because I used to say, I'd rather catch one on fly than 10 on bait. But honestly, I had never caught 10 on bait. And catching 10 on bait is really fun. It. It is really, really fun. And so it took a couple of experiences like that for me. And then I realized, you know what? Fly rod is a tool, just like a driver in your golf bag or a putter or any of your clubs. And it's not enough to just be good at that one thing you want to. I wanted to try to be good at all of the different clubs or all of the different fishing situations and, and to, you know, what. What Lee Wolf called a complete angler, like to be good at, at everything, at all different types of fishing, freshwater, saltwater, fly fishing, bait fishing, all of it.

That.

And so that became the passion of. Of how can you be good at all of these things? You don't have to be the best at any of them, but how can you be really good at all of them? So that became the passion.

So this is just not redfish because.

You know, you know, we have over 50, 50 different fish species of fish in the Florida Keys that we fish for regularly. And that's just out of like a bay boat.

Right.

When you add the offshore boat and everything, there's even more. But redfish were just one of the fish that we fish for. Mostly what I did, because I was in Key west and we didn't have a lot of redfish, even though I was fishing professionally on those tournaments was bonefish, permit and tarpon. Those were my three big fish. And then in the wintertime, we do a lot of barracuda fishing and, and shark fishing and other kinds of fish, you know, just to kind of get through to the, to the big three. But that's what most of my customers came down for with a permit, bonefish or tarpon.

When you started the television show, which sounds like 2005 or thereabouts.

Yeah, probably. Yeah, right in there, probably.

Were you still guiding at the time?

Yes.

Okay.

Yeah.

So were sometimes. Would your clients be on the television show?

No, we didn't really do that. The original idea of the, of the television show was that we liked fishing so much that even though we were fishing 300 days a year, anytime there was a day off, like, you'd find one of your guide buddies and you would go, or you would go by yourself and you would, you would go explore things that either, you know, were like, high risk, maybe high reward, that maybe you didn't take clients to because, like, it was a long way and, and like, you could. There were, there are certain places where, you know, Maybe it's a 50 mile run in one direction, and if you got to this area and it wasn't happening, that was your whole day. And if you had never been there before and you felt like, you know, this is. I need to go out there a couple times before I start taking people out there, because I don't even know what I'm looking for. Right. That was the kind of thing that you did on a guide's day off. And then, you know, you would, you would. And a lot of times those days are the best ever. The first time you find something. And so that was kind of the idea of the TV show in the very beginning, was that it was more like a guide's day off, like what Rich and I would do on our days off. And then we would take his experience and my experience. And then we'd put it together, and we'd go to an area that we. Neither one of us knew, and we would, you know, see what was. See what was happening. But I didn't really take a lot of customers. It wasn't ever like that. It was just like me and him.

Going, when you decided to start the film, did you nibble at it or did you. Did you go all in thinking, this is going to be something that's going to translate to television? What was your approach and what did the original crew look like that was going with you? Did you have a second boat?

Yep, he definitely had a second boat right away. I was pretty fortunate because, like, behind me, there's this. This picture here for the Great Outdoor Games. There was something called the Great Outdoor Games that. That happened in. What was that? 2000 and 2001. I was in that, and I was lucky enough to win that one behind me. And it was on ESPN and. And other things. And after I won that, there was an interesting little hook that this person from Key west, at that point, it was a kid from Key west, came to New York and won this. This trout fishing competition. And so on the surface, that sounds like what that. How does that happen? But I had already been a, you know, a professional trout guide, and I was actually much better at trout fishing at that time in my life than I was at saltwater fishing. And. And so I went up there and I had this opportunity to. To win that came back. And there were a number of TV shows that invited me to be on as a. As a guest. And so I got to see how a lot of them did it. And they all did it pretty similar. There would be a. A chase boat and a film boat. You'd have one or two cameramen. At that time, we didn't have drones or GoPros even. We just had basically two cameras. One. One or two cameras. And so when we started the TV show, I kind of had a vague idea of how it should go down. And I had a. A professional bass fisherman named Shaw Grigsby was incredibly nice. And that was the first TV show that I was ever on, was his TV show. So I called him when we were thinking about doing this TV show, and I asked him, you know, what, What. What do we do? Like, I don't. I don't know how this works. And he told me, pretty much laid it out, and he said, you know what? First you need to film a pilot. And I was like, okay, what. What's that? And I Didn't even know any of this stuff, right? So he's telling me all this stuff and he says, I'll tell you what, I'll even give you my crew to. I'll let you use my crew and you can go film your pilot. You're gonna need to pay them. Right? But. But he gave me the personnel and they came down there and they helped us to put it together. But at the time. And we went for it, you know, we. We. We went for it as best we knew how. And there was a. There was a. A network called the Outdoor Channel, which at the time, now it's a much bigger channel. At the time, it was pretty small, and that was our target. That's just what we knew. And at the time, the only thing that we could draw from were the other TV shows that were on and the other TV shows that had come and filmed with me. And those were all single host TV shows like Bill Dance. And that host would talk directly to the camera. And, you know, you felt like you were kind of in the boat with that person. Well, there were two of us. And so that became a very awkward situation. It didn't. It did not work. And these guys had only filmed with a single host before. And. And it was the first time. And. And that first season just was not very good. In fact, our pilot was so bad that the Outdoor Channel told us that we would have to go back to the drawing board and try again, which we did. And we did all the things. And they were kind of like, even then, they were reluctant to put it on because, you know, if you go back and look at any of those, or when I do, they were very awkward because we were trying to do the same thing as everyone else had done, but it just wasn't working because there were two of us and it was going against all of the formats. I don't know. And so later after that season, we reassessed. And what was disappointing to us is that we had all these customers coming down. And I would ask the customers, did you see the show? And they were like, what show? Like the one that we mortgaged our house for, the one that we have spent this whole year filming. And no one saw it. And it was because the Outdoor Channel was a smaller channel. You needed. You really kind of needed DirecTV or dish to get it. And like, even my father couldn't get Dish at his house because he had too many trees around his house. So he. It wasn't even available to him. And that was the frustration is that this you know, that's a fine network, and it's a big, much bigger network now, but at the time, there just weren't a lot of people that were, were getting it. And, and none of my customers saw the show. So I was like, what are we even doing this for if nobody's seeing it? So then the next year, we decided that we were going to make a major jump and we were going to be on ESPN and OLN at the same time. And we found a new producer who had some really great ideas. And he was like, you got to ditch this this way. Everybody else has been doing it. We got to come up with something new. And out of necessity, not out of, you know, some brainchild of being super smart or anything, but out of necessity, we came up with this format, which is the same as it is today, of two people sitting at a table talking to one another, not talking to the camera. And at the time, nobody had ever done that before. Wasn't like we were trying to do something different. We were just trying to make something that was good, you know, and, and it worked. It worked really, really well. And it was unique and original and people tended to like it. So we stuck with it.

Is it, is it the dirty jobs thing where, you know, there, there, there's other people, they're having a conversation, the camera's almost like a voyeur there. And then occasionally you're going to turn to the camera and you're going to point something out.

We don't ever even point into the camera.

You don't any.

No, you just. It's like, it's like your camera's not there. That's what, that's how we were, you know, coached into it from the very beginning. And, and then, then the other shows would have a voiceover like this, this disembodied voice would come on and tell you what's going on. We didn't do that either. This, this producer that we still have and still work with today, he produces all our shows. It was his idea. Just look, the, the, the, the voiceover, the narration is going to be you guys talking to one another at the table. We're not going to look at the camera. We don't address the camera. We don't talk to the camera unless you're doing a tip directly to the audience. Like, this is the rod and reel I'm using and everything. And you know what? I wouldn't have thought about that. And it worked. And it speaks to the, the, the who, not how kind of thing of if you're trying to. You got a big goal and you're trying to. To get someplace that. That seems impossible today. If you find the right who.

That's right.

You have to worry about how right like it. That all takes care of itself. Yeah. The who will. Will be the one. That's. That's the most important ingredient. It certainly was for us. Is that particular person. Right?

Yeah. And by the way, there's a great book to that. To that effect.

I know.

Yeah. Dan Sullivan.

Yeah. Well, I just read his other book that. What was it? Oh, the. The. The Gain and the Gap.

Oh, yeah, yeah.

Yes. The Gap and the Gain.

I think Gap in the gain. I was on one.

It goes one of the ways, but I just finished that and. And then I read the. The who, not how also. Very good.

Yeah. So have you. Are you familiar at all with Strategic Coach?

Just what I read in the book. Really didn't know. Yeah, I didn't know about that.

Yeah.

So I know other coaching programs, but not that one.

Got it. I started that a year ago.

Oh, really?

Yeah, sure did. And big fan.

Well, I'm a big fan of the whole approach of the gap, not the gain or the gain, not the gap and measuring backwards. It seems really good, you know, because people do get in that. I mean, the way that he described that your. Your perpetually looking for the next thing. You see it with athletes, you see it with all kinds of people. That it's just the neck. I'll be happy when I make a million dollars. I'll be happy when the TV show has been on the air for 20 years. I'll be happy when this happens. And, you know, you can find your. I think we've all found ourselves in that situation of. Huh. I got there and I thought it was going to be better than this or that. Didn't do it right. But I love that book for that reason. Yeah.

Sometimes you just need to sit in awareness and be where your feet are and be appreciative of the fact that we're above ground. We're getting to do what we like to do every day. We get to meet interesting people, have incredible experiences and, you know, have some. I am. I, you know, I've heard it a million times, but I'm. I'm now I'm actually starting to begin my day with gratitude and we'll see how it goes. But I think, as in New York, visiting my daughter this weekend and she wanted me to do a yoga. She's a yoga instructor in New York and she's going to school there, but she does that on the side. And I did yoga once, and I think I narrowly avoided a stroke. So, you know, I was like, I really didn't want to do it. And I had other. I couldn't. I could have made an excuse and whatever, but I just changed the meaning of it to say, you know what? She wants me to see her do this, this is that she's worked really hard at. I've never had a chance to see her do it professionally. And I just changed the meaning of it. And I went and had a great. Had a great experience that was. That was all on me. Dan Sullivan, who's the founder of strategic coach, he's 80 years old and he's been doing it for 35 years. And a couple. Two interesting things I've heard him say is, well, first of all, last year, at 79 years old, he filed 79, 75 patents.

Wow.

On his tools. Because like you say, some of these tools are really simple, kind of, okay, that makes all the sense in the world. But I hadn't had it put that way. So he took all of the tools that he's built, and he writes one book every quarter. And the gap in the gain. It's a thin little book. It's not a novel. I mean, these things are one concept, books just enough for you to get it. And so he went and filed patents and trademarks on all of his IP that he's put together over the last 35 years. Another thing that he said was fascinating to me, five and a half years ago, he stopped looking at social media and watching television. But he did say, other than the saltwater experience, but he stopped watching television. And he said, because I can do more with my attention than they can. So, you know, really, I mean, at some point, you know, understanding, like, our attention and what we give it to and like you did with your family and the choices that we've made for, you know, making sure that we could give the attention to our kids is really interesting. But any, any. Anything by Dan Sullivan right now is I highly recommend for me. So I appreciate you bringing that up.

Well, I, I agree. I. I really enjoyed that book and it was. It was suggested to me by one of my good friends, and we have talked about a number of books. And so when he suggested that I read it immediately and, and it was. It was good and powerful.

Nothing new. Without a who. That's my new thing.

I mean, without a who. That's right.

I start a lot of things. But, you know, if you don't have the right who, then it's on you. So.

That's right.

Nothing new without a who. All right, well, I would like to transit. Well, I have one more question about the television show.

Sure.

You have a producer I had, Andrew Zimmern on, and he said his understanding of what happened behind the camera made him a better host in front of the camera. Do you find that to be true for you?

For sure, yeah. I mean, for sure. So we also have a couple of other shows. So Saltwater Experience is one of the shows. And then because that was successful in the inshore saltwater world, we thought, well, you know, the offshore saltwater world is also very popular. So what if we took a couple of our friends and. And did an offshore show kind of similar to Saltwater Experience? And that one's called into the Blue. We have another one called Life on the Water. We had a bass fishing show, and I produced all of those. So I was in the camera boat on all of those, talking to the camera guys, watching how this all worked. I was driving the camera boat, you know, while. While that other stuff is going down. And it made me much, much, much better of realizing, like, what these guys are going through, how hard they're working to make the other two people in that other boat over there look good. And more than anything else, it made me much easier to work with, I'm sure, because I realized, like, you know, like, everybody here is working really hard to make those guys look good. So that made a big difference. But then also, like, you know, just realizing that, you know, batteries die, cards, you know, run out. You have to do all of that stuff. Everybody's doing the best job they can. Right. Of course, you'll. You'll get some people on occasion that you're not happy with their work performance. But for the most part, when you build a good team, everybody's working really, really hard. And so you, you know, like, in order to be a great leader, this is what I learned in the seal fit camp that I went to. In order to be an exceptional leader, you need to be an exceptional follower. And I guess that the experience that I've had behind the camera has helped me to lead in front of the camera. Like, these guys are going to tell you what they need you to do, and then you need to do that in a way that it's easy for everybody to work with. Right? Like, don't. Don't tell them what your idea is. Like, no, no, I think it would be better if we did it this Way, look, they already know. They know what the light looks like. They know everything. They just need you to say this. Just say it right, like, don't make it harder than it needs to be. And I think that, I think that, that, you know, for, for sure, knowing what they're going through, maybe better. On, on the other side of the.

Camera, you mentioned Seal Fit. You're, you're a fitness guy. Can you talk to me about the alignment between building businesses and, and great content such as you've done and then finding a way to incorporate fitness into that and also family, those, those three things and how you find alignment and balance between them?

Well, I think through, throughout the, the, the search for balance is going to be the hardest one because in order to really succeed at any of those things, there's going to be times where you're out of balance. Like you have to put more time and effort into your business than, than maybe you should. And then maybe, you know, your fitness falls off a little bit or your family falls off a little bit. But then, then I think for me, it's been more how quickly I can realize, okay, you know, I've been putting a lot of time in this right now. Now I need to put more time in these other two buckets. But fitness for me is the foundation of all success. And it, and it goes back to. It's interesting the way that you asked that question, because my feeling on fitness is that fitness is not a self. It's not selfish. It's the other way around. I'm, I'm trying to be as fit and healthy and strong and capable as I possibly can so that I can take care of my family and so that I can take care of my business and so that I'm easier to work with and so that whatever comes up, I'm more ready to handle that. And so one thing that, you know, I have to put fitness kind of as a priority. But what I learned was that that priority can take place at different times of the day to where it doesn't interfere with other things with business or with family. And so a while ago about, I guess maybe 25 years ago or something, I, I realized I have three kids and my oldest son is 26. So before he was born, I wanted to get in really good shape to be a good role model for my kids. I was the first goal. But then later, as he and his little brother and his little sister kind of grew up, I realized that fitness is still really important to me. But if I think that I'm Going to get home from work and then be able to take a run or work out before dinner or, or whenever. I'm going to be able to do that occasionally. But my feeling on fitness and what has been proven to me over and over again is, is in order to be in good shape, consistency is king. Right. And so what was happening and it happens to parents and, and people that are, that are busy all the time as you plan on this afternoon workout or, or a lunchtime workout or something and there's going to be a, a PTA meeting or there's going to be a wrestling match or a soccer game or a lacrosse game or you want to go watch practice or you get called into the school for some reason or you're, something happens and you get your workout on Monday and then you don't get it on Tuesday, Wednesday or Thursday and then you maybe get it on Friday. Well, you've only worked out two days. So eventually I just started to think okay, what is a time that I could workout that will fit into my schedule but won't take away time from either my business or my family? And to me that was early, early mornings. So I get up at 4:30 and I have from 4:30 to about 7. That's my time. And that time is coveted and sacred for me. I, that's when I'm going to get my workout in. And you know, after doing it for 25 years, I don't, I don't usually miss, I can't even imagine like not doing it at this point. But I think that, you know, that's, that's the big thing for me is not only having that time that, that, that allows you to do whatever it is that you like to do for fitness that doesn't interfere with the other things in your life, but then also something that you find fun and interesting and is more than just a drudgery of a workout. Like I have a whole group of people that I work out with and we, it's all a bunch of dads and everybody feels the same way. Like this is our time, this is when we can do this. And then once this is over, now it's family time and business time and that's what we do.

Yeah, we're on weirdly the exact same. That's exactly when I get up in the morning. I have a trainer three times a week. I might now be working yoga in on the off days. I usually do a rower or something at home, but usually five days a week. And we can give our kids lots of Things we can, we can put, put a few nickels together, we can leave them some money, we can give them great experiences, we can give them education. But the most powerful thing that we can give them is examples that we set for them both in fitness and I think also in entrepreneurship. You know, when children have an early entrepreneurial experience, they're like 10 times more likely to have success as an entrepreneur later in life. So are your kids entrepreneurial?

Yeah, they definitely all value fitness. For the other part of your, of your question, that they all, they all have fitness habits that, that they now have on their own. I don't have to encourage them or anything like that. And they're all, they all enjoy fitness different, different types of fitness. One might like, you know, more running, one's more pickleball, more, you know, but they're active and they, they understand the value of it both for your physical body and for your mind. Most people don't associate fitness with mind health, but to me, that's probably the most important thing of having a clear mind and being able to stay focused throughout the day. And for me, all anxiety or nervousness or, I don't know, it all goes away when I'm working out regularly.

Do you have any hacks? Do you like, do you do peptides? Do you jump in a cold plunge?

I do a lot of, I do a lot of things. So we, we have the cold plunge, but I don't know if I have any, any hacks. One thing that I really do like is the Wim Hof breathing. I've been doing that for, since I heard about it and of late it has become less and less popular because some people have, have actually died doing it, but they've died doing it around water. And when I was trained to do it, I went through his course early and his course specifically said that you should never do this around water. You shouldn't do it in the cold plunge, you shouldn't do it anywhere because you can pass out from doing it. But I do it on dry ground and certainly every single day I'll go through at least one or two rounds of it. And, and that has, has been very, very effective because like what you were talking about with yoga, a lot of people are into meditation, you know, and they'll tell you that, you know, you're supposed to meditate and you're supposed to reach this state. And I was trying to do that and honestly, I was not getting there. I don't know if I've just got. My mind would wander and I Wasn't able to. To get. I mean, just occasionally I would kind of get to this state where my mind was clear for seconds. But then when I started that Wim Hof breathing on the very first time I ever did it, my mind just, I was like, oh, that's what they're talking about. That's what they're talking about in meditation. And I saw the benefits to this of, of just, even for, even for just a minute, of just having your, your entire head just go completely silent, no thoughts whatsoever. And the benefit of that was, was amazing. And I was like, that's what all these people are talking about, meditation. That's the state that I've never been able to reach. And on the first time that I tried the breathing, I was able to do that. And then every time after that, I'm able to do that. So for me, you know, the breathing has, has. You know, if you, if you listen to him, I mean, he talks about all these incredible benefits for your body and your. All these different things, and certainly it probably has those benefits. I have seen two benefits. I have seen that it has the effect that people, you know, brag about or expand. Expand on for meditation, that all of these benefits that meditation gives you. I get it from the breathing. Then there are certain benchmark workouts that we'll do like a hundred burpees. Do you know what a burpee is? You drop down on the ground and get up and jump. Unfortunately, if you do that a hundred times. Yeah, unfortunately, you might know what that is. If you do that a hundred times, you're doing it basically the exact same way every time. And you can keep your time over, over the course of, you know, 10 years, 20 years, whatever. And, and I, I keep my. All my workouts in this, in this. On this website called beyond the Whiteboard. And so I have, like a whole thing and it'll graph it out for you. And I was having a, you know, pretty, pretty plateaued performance until I started that breathing. And 100 burpees is going to take you somewhere between six, six and a half minutes and four and a half minutes. And it's kind of like running a mile, right? So you're running a mile. You're running a mile at seven minutes, and you do that for five years, and then you incorporate something into your routine, and the next time you run a mile, you do it in five and a half minutes. What in the world happened? You've been trying to knock a second off of this time for a long time, and you're basically able to just chip away like one second or two seconds. Right. And then I started. And that was the same way with the burpees where I was doing this and I was all at about six and a half minutes. And then I started doing this breathing. I did it very consistently for a long period of time. And I go back and I try this 100 burpee workout again. And I knocked about a minute off and I was like, okay, well, that's the only thing that's really changed. So I get two benefits out of the breathing. That would be my, that would be my hack. I like the going in the sauna. I go in the sauna every day.

What kind?

I have a regular sauna. My. I built my daughter a playhouse and that she never went in it. And so then I converted it to a regular sauna.

Okay, so you do. It's a, is a well wet sauna or infrared?

Just a regular sauna. Got a heater, you know, not an infrared.

Got it. Yeah, I do the infrared. Doesn't quite get as hot, but it works. It's good.

Yeah, I get it.

I get about 160.

There's a ton of, of great, you know, research on, on the sauna. If you listen to Rhonda Patrick or somebody like that, she's, she'll go on and on and on about all the benefits. And again, you know, I like the benefits that I get from it. And if I'm getting additional benefits, like, you know, I, I keep dementia at bay or something like that.

That's right.

Later in my life than great. But right now I love the, the cleansing sweat. Like, it's just amazing. I love, I love the sauna. Yeah, but that comes from, from wrestling. As a kid, we used to get in the sauna all the time. So when I get in the sauna now, I have the same feeling that I, I did when I was cutting weight, except now I can drink water while I'm in there. Back then you just got all the water your system. It wasn't fun at all.

Yeah, look, you know, I, I do it right after my workout, so I already have an elevated body temperature. And then I'll do 30, 35 minutes in there at about a buck 55, a buck 60. And I stopped sweating probably after 10 or 15 minutes.

Yeah.

So.

Yeah, but I don't know if all.

Of this stuff, I think for people out there, I mean, we're, we're entrepreneurial, focused, podcast. So we get a lot of business owners and people that are Trying to figure it out. And I mean, I, I, I'm doing an owners only with all of our franchise owners. It's just, it has nothing to do with their business or anything that's going on in more really just talking with all of the owners about, you know, things like this. So I'm bringing them blood work. I'm able to bring them an opportunity to, to, to get a free blood blood screening just to understand where they're at and you know, they might not want to spend the money to do anything about it right now. Some of the stuff they're going to be able to do with supplementation. But what you said, I think if you're a business owner out there, like you can't help anybody else until you're optimized. You've got to be in good shape. You've got to have a, I mean, our will is an exhaustible resource. And the day, from the moment we wake up in the morning, we start burning our battery down. So if you're out of shape and you're not living clean, then it's really going to compromise the amount of time that you can kind of be in the zone and focusing on the things that matter. And then you might be able to get your work day done, but then you go home to your kids and you got nothing left for them, so you're just sitting on the couch. I mean, we, we have a lot of service obligations in our life and, you know, we got to be tuned up and we got to show up and we got to be ready to go.

That's right. I believe it 100%. I think that for, for any success that I've had, I can, I can think that, that being in good shape has been a major part of, of being able to do the work that it required to have whatever success than I had.

Yeah, 100%. Tom, can we talk a little bit about Florida?

Sure.

We've been so I, I, I learned my trade of disaster response in south Florida in 1992, responding to Hurricane Andrew and helping the people of South Florida recover. I think I'm a couple years older than you, but so I was down there. Oh man, I was in my early mid-20s there in 1992. And we've always traveled down there. We vacationed in the Keys. We've, we've looked at buying property down there. I've owned property on and off in, in Florida. And it's, you know, as we're looking around there recently and traveling down there, there seems to be a lot of Demand a lot of pressure, particularly on the Keys, in terms of building, in terms of, you know, tourism. You go and start looking at houses, and 50% of the conversation is on insurance and whether you can get it or whether you can't and how you do it. And of course, with all of the, you know, there's a lot going on in terms of confirmation or conservation with the reefs and the fisheries and all of that. So, you know, what trends do you. Are. Is there any trends in the Keys that you're particularly concerned about right now or any things that you think needs attention?

Well, the number one thing for the entire state of Florida is the water quality issue. And for people that are somewhat familiar with Florida, even people that are very familiar with the Keys and Florida, it can be a very kind of tricky thing to understand. But in some areas of Florida, there's way too much freshwater. And in other areas of Florida, there's no fresh water. Okay? So there's a lake in the middle of Florida called Lake Okeechobee. And when. When that lake fills up, which happens all the time because it rains a lot in Florida there, and you have a lot of agricultural land. They grow sugar all through there. There's. There's tons of. Of. Of fertilizer that is on the ground that ends up in the lake. You have stuff that people put on their lawns. You have all kinds of chemicals that end up in Lake Okeechobee. Then imagine you get a tremendous amount of rain and that lake fills up, and they don't have anything to do with that lake, so they want to. They want to stop the flooding. So they send tremendous amounts of fresh water out both sides of Florida. They go out the two rivers on both sides of the state of Florida. That water, which is unnaturally. It's way too much water for. For the natural occurrence. And so all of that water is going out the sides of Florida. Because the way that Florida used to work is below Lake Okeechobee into the Everglades and then into the Florida Bay was what. What the Everglades are, is the river of grass. It used to be kind of a laminar flow all the way across the entire state of Florida that would just. Fresh water would just flow through the Everglades and grass and then get into the Flamingo area and then into Florida Bay. And it would just be like this, you know, really wide, hundreds of miles wide river, basically, that's very, very shallow. That would just. The fresh water would just flow down through there. Well, because Florida is a It's a wonderful place to live. It was a really miserable place to pioneer. The mosquitoes are terrible there. I mean, if it was the way that it was in the 1800s, I don't think anybody would live there. But they became. They started with drainage ditches, mosquito spraying, all these different things. They built roads all through there. So where. Now you can. You can drive through places that would be totally inaccessible. And when they do all of that, they create dams, dikes, and they block. Eventually block the flow of water that. That natural laminar flow of fresh water that would go south has been blocked up to the point that maybe 1% of the water that used to come down through there, and that could be wrong. It's a very small percent of the number of the amount of water that used to flow south has been cut off, and it does not flow south anymore. So in parts of the Everglades and parts of Florida, you have incredibly high salinities, like parts of Florida Bay, Flamingo, this area. So when people are hearing about the water crisis in Florida, they're like, well, how come some people are saying that the water is so salty that nothing can live there? And then other people are talking about there's too much fresh water. I don't know what. It's very difficult for people to understand. It was difficult for me to understand. I didn't understand what was going on. But the flow of that water going south has been cut off the. And so they have all that water to deal with. It used to flow south. Now they push it out the sides of Florida through these two different rivers. That water hits the Gulf of Mexico and the Atlantic Ocean. It has a tremendous amount of fertilizer and effluent and everything else in there. And it sometimes will supercharge these algae blooms that will create red tides. And if there is a red tide out there, it will exacerbate that to. To a point that maybe we've never seen before. Big fish kills, algae blooms that make the water kind of green and doesn't. Doesn't. It's not night. It's not good. And so in the Keys, the water's too salty. In the other areas, the water's too fresh. And so there are solutions to this. And there's a group that I do a lot of work with called Captives for Clean Water. And they. They know that there is money that has been set aside to create these reservoirs that will. They can push that water from Okeechobee into these reservoirs. It'll settle in those reservoirs. They can treat that water in those reservoirs. And so when it does go out the sides of Florida, they can remove a lot of the pesticides and chemicals and other things that are causing a lot of these problems. The money has already been set aside for that and it's called the EAA Reservoir. And those reservoirs have not been built yet. They started on them, but they haven't been, they haven't been built. Now that is a situation that could help the, the, the issues, but it's not going to fix it immediately and it's not going to fix it totally. So other, other things that have been going on is they've been removing some of these dikes and dams and other things and allowing more water to flow south and kind of reestablishing this flow. But it's nothing that is going to happen very, very fast. But it is important that people that like Florida and like to go to Florida kind of understand what it is that's going on and understand that there are solutions to these things. It's not like, oh, we've just created this problem that we're never going to be able to solve. There are solutions and there's even money that has been set aside for these solutions. And it's just a matter of like, in a lot of cases when it comes to time to vote, of voting yes for clean water, like, yeah, I think that we want more water to flow south. But if you don't understand the problem and there's something on the ballot that says, would you want this? I don't know, it sounds like maybe more mosquitoes. No, I don't want it. So, you know, those are the biggest problems because without clean water, like, Florida is an amazing state and people on both sides of the coast, they love walking on the beaches, they love seeing the birds, they love seeing the clear water and the fish and, and it's beautiful. But when those beaches are covered with dead fish and it smells bad and, and it's, it affects everything. It affects the real estate values, it affects the restaurants, it affects everything about the state of Florida. And all of those things can be fixed and they all can be improved as long as there is, you know, education and people understand what it is. As far as the Keys go, you know, the same thing kind of happens when there's no freshwater coming down. It gets super salty and things don't even want to live there and so they move out. And we've had big grass die offs in the, in the Florida Bay in the last few years. It's come back and it's been really good. And it shows you that if. If you give nature a chance and what. What it needs, then it will come back. But the seagrass is the. I don't even know how to explain it. More so than it's the most important thing for South Florida. Like, if. If the seagrass dies off, then everything's gonna. Everything's gonna suffer. So the seagrass was dying off because you would have these algae blooms, and the. The light couldn't penetrate through the algae blooms to get to the grass. And then it would die off, and then it would become this muddy area. And then the water just stays muddy. And as the water stay in muddy, it's not giving the grass any opportunity to start growing again. So the last couple of years has been really good, and we've had regrowth in a lot of these areas, but, you know, it could happen again anytime. And. But what also could happen is that, is that we could get those reservoirs built and we could. We could send a little more water south, and things could really, really improve.

Is the sea grass in the Okeechobee or is it in the coastal areas?

No, the seagrass is like what you see when you go out of Key west and you look and you see the green kind of bottom.

Yes.

And you have long. Kind of almost looks like monkey grass. Right. Like, that's the seagrass. That's healthy seagrass. And, you know, Islamorada's got it. Florida Bay is covered with it, and you'll see it interspersed with sand holes and different things, but that holds the bottom together. That's why the water's clear in the Florida Keys, because there's. There's nothing. You know, everything's being held down to the bottom. You have tons and tons and tons of creatures that live in there. The mullet will feed in there. The. You got seahorses and shrimp and crabs and everything that lives in that seagrass. It's like a rainforest. Like, there's so much life that lives in that seagrass. And when that dies, then the fish don't have anything to eat. The water's all muddy. And. And it's a real problem. That, to me, is the most important thing to Florida now. Of course, you have. When you have more and more building. You know, like one of my friends, he. He's always put it. It's like. It's about the number of toilets, right? So you got a big. You got a big apartment building going in where there used to be just two houses, and now instead of four toilets. They've got, you know, 400 toilets. You got to make sure that that is accommodated for. So make sure that the sewer systems are. Are up to date and good before you start building some of these things. And I know that some of the areas in. In Florida are really struggling with that. The building has gone on so fast that the infrastructure to support that, specifically the sewer systems, hasn't kept up. And so some. Some areas are. Are suffering from, you know, pollution in the water. That's not what the keys is.

The.

The keys has been much better about zoning and keeping the building to. To a minimum and not allowing, you know, there's not high rises all the way down the Keys. Like, it's. They've done a good job of that. And I think that they just realize that. That at some point can't do it right. Like, there's just not enough sewer pipe to support more building.

It's a skinny piece of land in a lot of areas.

Yeah.

I mean, you can see both sides of it. And, you know, Islamorada being one of the world's best fisheries. You've got the Gulf side and you can do all of that fishing on that side, and then you're right in the Atlantic. Gulf Stream's not far. You can get to it. We have a bay boat and with a single screw, so we've gone out farther than we probably should have. But if it's a clear day and there's other boats around, we've gone out with my kids and figured out how to go for mahi and. And got into them and just had an experience like you would know. It looked like a murder scene on the boat when we were done.

It's awesome.

Fish everywhere and blood everywhere. And, you know, when you were in 400ft of water and, you know, you'd throw a small one back and a shark would come up and grab it, and it's like, you can't. There's. You can't make that up. Other than the one captain's cause that you mentioned, what are some other organizations that you would recommend that people might want to support for this issue with the water?

Yeah, well, my favorite one is the captains for the clean water and. And those guys are fishing captains that basically were impacted by this Okeechobee situation. And they said, look, all we want is clean water, right? Like, that's what we want. Now there's. There's many different organizations that do similar things, many different Everglades organizations, and I support all of them. Like, they're all looking for the same thing, clean water. Whether you're a bird watcher or you like to go to nice waterfront restaurants, or you like to walk on the beach, or you're an angler or you're a fishing guide, it's all the same. And what I like about Captains for Clean Water is that they have been very inclusive. They haven't just said, this is for fishermen and this is, you know, this is a fisherman's organization. Now they realize that real, real estate people, restaurateurs, you know, anyone that has anything to do with tourism. The reason that people are coming to Florida and the reason that people want to live in Florida is because of the beautiful water and because of the things that live in that water. And as soon as you take that away, we. It. Everyone loses. And so it is by no means just a fisherman's cause. It's, it's everyone's. And in fact, it's such a big thing that it affects the entire country, I think, because not only just the people that come to Florida to, to visit, but also, like, if we have to put billions of dollars into fixing these situations once they get so bad that, that the whole country has to come together to, to fix something, nobody wants that. I mean, that's going to be tax dollars from everyone. So it's at a point right now that, that it could be. There are things that can be done about it, like these reservoirs and different things. And, and, you know, I like that organization because they're, they're very inclusive and they're very open to educating people. And they don't just point the finger and scream and yell and, you know, there's a place in the time for those people too. And they're very effective. But, you know, my, my, I think this organization has been really, really good. But, you know, everybody from the Nature Conservancy to, to, you know, I don't know, there's like ever. There's another Everglades organization. I can't remember what it is, but they're. If they're for clean water, I'm for them.

I was fortunate to spend a couple of days with Guy Harvey and his daughter Jessica, who's the president of their foundation. And they do a lot around education programs, camps mostly around the fish, but also the habitat offshore. They're, of course, they're down there in the Caymans and they have their stingray camp and, and all of that, but very active, very big educational program. I don't know if you've bounced across them at all in the things that you've done, but I certainly got the impression and have supported them in the work that they do.

Yeah. And again, like, there's one that I, I didn't even think about the guy, Harvey. I think he's got a foundation and he's doing great work. Certainly has, has a, been a, a leader in, in the marine kind of industry with his art and then how he's been able to parlay that into education and into things that are much bigger. So good for him. You know, he's a, he's certainly a legend of the sport. And we had him on one of our shows called Life on the Water last year. He and his daughter, both of them were on that show.

How was that?

It was great. I wasn't on that particular shoot, but it was great. The show turned out great. And you know, it's always great to have somebody like him on, on the show.

Tom, you've got a bunch. Is there when you think about telling your best fishing story something you couldn't believe happened, does one pop into your head?

You know, there, there are a lot and there, there are a lot of them that, that seem impossible. And I don't know why I thought about this one as soon as you said that, but I don't know. I had this. I don't know. There's been, there's just been so, so many. I had this, I had this one person and like when we were growing up, you would see people and they would have kind of a. I don't, I don't want to say this wrong or give it any kind of disservice, but you would have one person that had kind of like a small, small arm. You know, like, I think it was from something that, the, that, that women would take when they were pregnant and it was way more common when we were kids and, and it would just. It was kind of like a dwarf arm.

Yeah.

Do you know what I'm talking about?

Yes.

And so I had this gentleman and he came down and he had that on his left arm and he wanted to go permit fishing. So we went, we had a half day permit fishing set up and I take him out and he was like, he was, he was so cool and he was a great fisherman. And what he would do is he would just hold the handle, but his right arm was super strong and really good with it. And he could make a cast anywhere. And then he would just hold the handle and then he would reel the rod around the handle as opposed to the reel around the, you know, the Handle of the reel, around the reel. And he was very accomplished and he could do it. And so we go out and you know what a permit is? It's got like a long. There's. There's one actually behind me, right?

Yeah. And you. When I fished for him, we drop like a crab down on a wreck. Yeah, something like that.

But they're also on the flats. Okay. And so you can see them on the flats. And. And that was the fish that I fished for just a ton. And if you, if you look at it. Right.

Yep.

There in the back, you can see that it's got a fork tail. And so we go out there and I see this permit and, And I start pulling for it and I get him to see it. He throws right over there. He catches it, pulls it right in. And when it came in, the bottom lobe of his tail was dwarf, like all shriveled up.

Oh, my God.

Tiny.

Wow.

Never seen one like that before. Never seen one like that since. And he picked the thing up and he goes, oh, look, we're twins. And I was like, wow, that is. That's amazing. I've never seen that. He's like, do you see him like this all the time? I said, no, I've never seen one like that before. So we put that one back and. And we go down the flat and we see another permit, throws over there, catches that one. And the top ray of his tail is dwarf, like that. And he picks it up and he goes, man, that's crazy. Two in one day. And I'm thinking, you have no idea how crazy this is. I've never seen this before. And you caught one with the lower lobe and one with the upper lobe. Those are the only two fish we saw the whole day. We caught both of them. And, and it was with this particular gentleman that had that deformity on his arm, and the permit was. Were like mirror, mirror images of that. And I. I've never seen it before, never seen it since. And that is one of the weirdest things that have ever happened. And it left me with like this, this feeling of like, like gratitude, of like, man, that is. I think that was like a sign of, of something like. I don't know what that was, but I'm glad I was a part of it. Right. And he was too. He was like, that is so cool that we caught those. I mean, he had a great, great attitude about life in general. Right? Like, he didn't have a, he didn't have a handicap. He, he, you know, the handicaps in your Mind. I fished with this guy a long time ago. Kyle Maynard. Do you know who he is?

I do know the name. I can't place.

He was a. He was born with a congenital birth defect and his, his arms only came to here and his legs. Yes, he won an SB Award. He was a.

He was a wrestler.

Yeah, he was on the show and. And he wrote a. He was on your show?

Yeah, we had him on.

Yeah, he's a f. Phenomenal guy. And he wrote a book and.

That's right.

I had him on the show a long time ago on Saltwater Experience. One of my favorite guests ever. And Kyle, you know, and it was really cool about having Kyle. There is. My kids were there too, and they were young and. And Kyle was really great with kids. And he, he saw this ring game where, you know, in the keys you have it like a string, there's a ring and you swing it and it lands on a hook. You know what I'm talking about? I do. We call. We call it the ring game. I don't know what it's called, but Kyle goes, hey, Hayden, that's my boy. He says, you want to play that? And Hayden said, yeah, how are you going to play it? And he goes like this. And he pulls this stool over there and he jumps up on the stool and he goes, hand me the thing. And he does it with his arms. And my son was just like, wow, that's amazing. And he beat my son at that ring game immediately. Immediately. And later the next day we were talking and. And Kyle just had this amazing attitude and he was like, you know, I don't see. A handicap is not something that I have just because I don't have arms or legs. That's not a handicap. A handicap is negative self talk that people have in their brain. They can't stop it. They have it their entire life and they can't do anything about it. He's like, I've been able to overcome everything. He can eat with a fork and knife. He can do anything that you can do with your arms and legs. It might take him a little bit longer, but he's figured it out. And he's like, this isn't a handicap. The handicap is. Is a bad attitude. A handicap is a. Is a negative self talk. Handicap is no confidence. Handicaps happen in your brain. They don't happen in your body. And I was like, man, that is awesome. I love, I love that with Kyle. I've stayed in touch with him for a long time. Um, but he, you know, I, that's how that guy was with the fishing story. He didn't think he had a handicap. He. He didn't have a handicap.

Yeah.

He. He's overcome every single thing, and he was able to do anything that anyone else could do. But then he saw these fish, and just like I did, he realized, I don't know what that was, but that doesn't happen every day. And it was cool to be a part of it. So I don't know if that's kind of the. I mean, I can tell you stories about giant sharks, but that's better. That one was probably one of the. I'll never forget that. That's one that I will never, ever forget.

Yeah. Just sometimes sit in awareness with that and, like, what is the universe trying to teach me here? There's a lesson in it.

I hope maybe one day I'll figure it out. I don't know. I haven't yet.

There is a lesson in it. Tom, you've been incredibly gracious with your time today. We're heading towards the barn. I do have a question or our final question for you today, and. But again, really appreciate you jumping on.

Well, thank you for having me. I've had a good time.

Yeah, man. So great to talk to you and appreciate all the work that you've done. And I think there's a lot of inspiration in what you've done and the way you went about it.

Thank you.

If you had one sentence to make an impact in someone's life, what would that be?

You can do it.

All right, do it.

That's it. I mean, I'm serious. I do believe that. That. That's it. I don't know that it needs. It needs a lot more explanation, but most of the time, the only thing holding people back is the fact that they don't believe in themselves. And you can. You can do it. I don't care how crazy it is. That's basically what my podcast started out being, was I wanted to find these stories of people that. It started out being, like, wanting to be a fishing guide or wanting to do something different. You had a job. You know, you'll hear about these guys that are, like, lawyers or doctors or whatever, and they want to be a fishing guide. Maybe not a doctor, but, you know, like, they got one career, and they just don't like what they're doing, and they want to do something else. And there's this moment where they have to decide, I'm going for it. And most people stop right there because they don't think they can do it or they're scared or something. But you know, you can if you believe in yourself and you can if you're willing to take the risk. And, you know, I think that's what I would tell people. You can do it.

Perfectly said. I kicked off a training class this morning. 19 new franchisees and our temporary wall brand. And I really like to get them the first two hours. And one of the things we talk about is self limiting beliefs and that, you know, we're all exactly where we are based on the decisions that we made and whether we've taken fearless action or we haven't, on the things that we've thought about and just encouraging them that nothing is fatal. And I mean, at the end of the day, you know, you're not going to die. You're not going to die getting up in front of people and speaking. The audience wants you to win. They're not going to remember what you didn't, what you forgot to say. There's no reason not to push yourself into situations where you're uncomfortable. And if you continue to argue for your limitations, you get to keep them.

I like that.

Yeah. I mean, and it's, you know, we play Minecraft. Oh, my family didn't do this. Oh, I don't have enough resources. And you just start putting these walls around you and you're limiting all the opportunities that you have in life. You've had multiple lives within a life. I mean, you, I mean, for some people to go out and, and be a guide out west, I mean, that's a dream. And then you come to Florida and you do it all again and then you do the television show and we didn't even talk about your podcast, which has over a thousand episodes in it. And as I was preparing for this, I'm scrolling through it, I listened to the one with the guy with the, with the, with the big wave that got lost at sea.

Oh, yeah.

Which was, which was a recent one. I mean, that is an incredible, I mean his story was incredible. So, yeah, it was just so much value in what you've put together and what you presented to the world. And I really appreciate you coming on. It's just been an absolute pleasure and a joy to hang out with you today.

Well, thank you. I really appreciate having you. I need to have you on my podcast.

Oh, 100%. I'm ready to go. We'll just click over and we'll go right at it.

Yeah, well, we'll set it up for, we'll set it up for a time in the future, but I would like to have you on there. It sounds like you've had an incredible go at entrepreneurship yourself, and you've been incredibly successful with it, and you are also helping lots and lots of people. So I love that. I love that story. That's really awesome.

Good so far. Got a long way to go, and I'm excited for it. Tom Roland.

Just measure backwards, dude. That's all you got to do.

Yeah, man.

See how far you've come.

That's right. That's right. Well, this has been Tom Roland with Jeff Duden, and we have been on the home front. Thanks again, Tom.

Thank you.