What Does It Take to Disrupt an Industry? Amin Shaykho Shares His Secrets #126

You find a North Star like this dream, you let nothing prevent you from achieving that goal.

People need to really be careful not to try to live a life built on someone else's dreams.

For you, that feedback for the first time, it's scary. It's like you have a newborn son or daughter or whatever it may be, and. And they're like, oh, this is ugly. And, you know, what do you do if you're a parent of that son? Right?

You say it takes after your spouse. Hey, everybody. Welcome to on the Home Front with Jeff Duden. And today's guest is Amin Shayko, a Forbes 30 under 30 honoree who graduated high school and community college simultaneously with a 4.0 GPA. At just 18, he went on to complete his four year degree at the University of Washington and then became an Apple Engineer. Today, Amin is recognized as one of the masterminds behind Kadama, perhaps the world's most downloaded app for tutoring, which he started with his brother. When amin was just 18. With millions of followers across social media, he leveraged his personal brand on TikTok and other channels to launch Kadama like a rocket. Welcome to the show, Amin Shako.

Thank you so much for having me. I'm excited.

Yeah, man, I tell you what, you know, I do a good bit of prep for these things, and I just resonate so much with your story. There's a lot of, there's a lot of alignment to kind of how I grew up. Kind of really needing to do something or wanting to do something at an early age. Always building businesses and that kind of stuff. You went the coding route. I grabbed the paintbrush. So it took me a little, you know, you can't quite build a paintbrush and a ladder into, you know, the world's largest app. So I think you're a little bit ahead of me. But anyway, I'd love to hear from you just to start a little bit about how you grew up.

Yeah. And by the way, I honestly, that's one of my weaknesses, painting. Whenever I grab a paintbrush, it doesn't go well.

Well, here's the good news. You can hire somebody.

That's true. That's the good news. But, yeah, I know growing up was. I honestly never anticipated I'd be where I am today. And I always, whenever I hire new people or my friends and they ask me, like, what's next? Or what gets you the most excited? I'm like, I honestly don't know. Like, things change every six months. And from a young age, all my friends knew where they wanted to be when, like, I'm talking middle school, elementary, even high school, like, they. They all knew where they wanted to be. They had these goals. Their parents had told them to do something and they were gonna do it. And I just never knew what I was gonna do. And, like, doctor, engineer, lawyer. You know, the basic Middle Eastern request. And I was like, okay, cool. They're. They're nice. They make you money, but can I actually sit down for the next, you know, 30, 40, 50 years of my life and just do one thing? And the answer never was a yes, at least for me. And that being said, I was like, well, I don't really know what I resonate with. I don't feel like I have a mission or a goal or drive. So let me just focus on one thing, which happened to be my grades. I was like, if I can get a 4.0 and just somehow maintain it all through school. I knew that 4.0 meant good school because, you know, my parents had just immigrated here. They didn't know too much. Like, things like the sat, ACT scholarships. That was unheard of. We didn't even know what that was. And so all I knew was good grades, Something good happens. I was like, you know what? I'm gonna do that and hope for the best. One day the doors will open. And that was my basically, like, North Star all the way through school and even growing up, because, as I told you, my parents had immigrated here, I always stood out. Whether. Whether it was in school, in class and sports. I was that one different kid. And so, in addition to not really knowing what I wanted to do in school, I also felt like I stood out. And it was hard for me to actually express who I was. And so there came a time when, you know, the kids obviously would make fun of it or people would give you that extra attention because you were unique. And when you're not used to it, it's kind of awkward. And so my natural instincts was, let me just hide that. And so growing up, I essentially felt like I was creating the most normal person of myself, even though I had so much to offer and I had to confine a lot of my potential and mask this identity. And going all the way through school, and then there happened to be a time where that all changed. But I felt like me going through that at the young age, when I did eventually flip that switch over and start to embrace my differences and how unique I am and my creativity, it really made me go from that 0 to the 100 level, which, honestly, Is why even to this day, since I started my career, I will rarely take a vacation or a day off because I'm like, there's so much I have to make up on. I have to just accomplish this, this, this and that, and I just keep going and. Right. So it built me that drive, that, chasing that 4, 0, and having have gone through that, you know, masking my identity phase to now, flipping that switch, embracing every single one of my differences and telling people like, hey, you gotta be different. That's the way to succeed. And so that's kind of initially I would say those, like, the foundations of what built me and then what turned me to I am today.

You know what I find really interesting about what you said? There is, I think people need to really be careful not to try to live a life built on someone else's dreams for you. And you might not know where you want to go, and it might be unclear, you know, what you won't tolerate, you know, what you don't want to do, but you might not know where you want to go. So what you need to focus on is you. You win the next opportunity by succeeding in the one that you're in. It might be grades. It might be, you know, just. For some people, entrepreneurs, it's just, you know, getting to payroll, getting to that next payroll. But, like, if as long as you can keep winning small or significant goals and, you know, the next one somehow always materializes because the universe has a way, like. And we were just talking about that in here, waiting for you to come on. You know, we were talking about all the ideas that we had over the years that two years later was a big success, but we just didn't act on it. You know, when things happen in the universe and everybody sees what a company's doing or how people are using or engaging with certain tools or apps or things like that, the next one actually is pretty logical. And it's just, who's the first one that is actually in a position to stop whatever they're doing and get after it? So. So that's awesome. Hey, I hadn't heard you talk about sports before. Did you play sports growing up?

Yes, I played a good amount of sports. I never was the best at them, but I picked them up. I played tennis, soccer, basketball, swimming.

Yeah. Okay, awesome. All right, so you're. You're. You're getting your 4.0, you're graduating simultaneously, and then you. And then while you were in high school there, you started a coding club. It's code. The code for Care Club. Is that what that was? What was that all about?

Yeah, and code for care was a pretty fun time, honestly, now that I look back at it. It was the first experience I had, kind of being a leader. And so the reason I brought up 4.0, it's nothing really about the 4.0. It was teaching me this discipline where you find a North Star like this dream, and you. You let nothing prevent you from achieving that goal. No matter what came my way, I'm gonna make sure I pass that exam and get that perfect grade. And that was just the goal I had. It could have been anything else. It could have been making D1 baseball. Right? It doesn't matter. As you were saying. And so that was teaching me the discipline. And while I was growing up, right, I naturally found myself building stuff like tech products and. Or reselling business. And at the same time, I started to get involved with volunteering nonprofits and helping people out. And those three things kind of stem the value of, you know, discipline, leadership, business. And then doing an initiative that helps other. And during high school, I did this program called the Running Start program, where I would be able to graduate with both an AA degree and high school diploma at the same time by taking classes at the community college. And so I think I was 16 years old, I joined that college and I had this idea. I was like, well, you know, what if I build a club where we get a bunch of people to join together and we work on building apps that help the local nonprofits, so maybe an app that will streamline their food donation process or something like that. But keep in mind, I was a 16 year old and community college people are usually 18 to 22. So when I go pitch the idea to the whoever is responsible for opening these clubs, they looked at me and they're like, dude, you're literally in high school. What the hell are you trying to do here? No where there's no way we're going to open up this club. And so I keep talking, and then I get one person who says, you know what, if you want me to accept this club, because I have a feeling you're only doing this to look good on the resume. You have to come back with five people that demonstrate that you guys are actually passionate and are actually going to take this seriously. So I literally go, somehow gather five to 10 people, we storm back this office, we kick that door open, and we're like, I got them right here. Sign off this paper. He signs it off. I somehow convinced 20 people. Keep in mind, I'm like 16, convincing like 19 year olds, 20, 21, 22 to join this club and we start working on it and you know, at that age we're trying to build an app, a mobile app that helps nonprofits. Right. None of us know how to code. I had no idea what I was doing, but I felt like I was learning a good amount about how to actually get started by building a team, you know, brainstorming, coming up with design, where even though we didn't really achieve anything in that club, you know, the person that responsible for opening the clubs was kind of right about that. I learned the founding basis and even the motivation to actually start my own company. And then that same summer I actually ended up starting off my brand Katama. From what I learned, from what I, you know, with this club story.

Having a side hustle is my number one recommendation to young people. And just start, just, just start and iterate and just fail as fast as you can. And the idea, the actions will create the idea and it'll come to you. And what's interesting is like you, you went into college, you went and had a career at Apple, but you created this business and we're building it the same time, I assume when you were at Apple and also as a student at University of Washington. Correct?

Exactly. And exactly what you said. I've never known what I was doing when I started something. I always start something and I have no idea what I'm doing even working at Apple. They hired me and I was like, how the heck did I land this interview? And I still didn't know what I was doing when I was there. But yes, I was working on my startup through, through college and then through Apple and then eventually I leave Apple when we raise money.

Why are so many people so fearful to do something like that?

There's a few different things. I think a lot of people, well, first of all, maybe they haven't seen the other perspective. They're so used to what, you know, their parents taught them or maybe a lot of. I feel like the biggest thing in biggest thing for me at least was I felt like my ambitions, like I had so many different ambitions and I was like, well, am I going to just sit down and let time pass and see other people do the thing that I'm trying to do or am I going to do it myself? And a lot of people are also not too risk adverse. And the thing is with me, I feel like compared to some other founders who literally sell everything, they're living on a couch, I believe that I'm actually a bit more risk adverse than many founders, but the thing is, with me, I'm willing to compensate by working hard. So I was too scared to just drop everything and commit to this goal of building a startup. So I was like, you know what, let me go work 40 hours at Apple, make some good money, and then work another 40 hours building my company. So I'm working 80 hours. It sucks, but at least that way I can manage my risk. And so that's how I approach taking these big decisions. I try to be as calculated as possible and sometimes I have to take that leap of faith, but that's where I sit, at least when it comes to making these very riskful decisions.

Yeah, Daymond John says that you have to take advantage of the power of broke because you get really resourceful when you don't have a ton of resources. And the worst thing a lot of people can do when they have a startup sometimes is to have too much money because you end up with thousand dollar chairs and these great speakerphones and all of that kind of stuff. And then when the business fails, that's, you know, that's, that's going to the next, that's getting sold on Facebook, Marketplace. But so, so although you know, regardless of how hard you work when you're building an app, eventually you've got to have some resources. How did you fund this thing?

Yeah, no, good point. And so for us, when we initially started this, we were like 18 year old and my other co founder was 14 and the other one was like 17. And we started those graduating from high school and through college. And obviously we were broke at that point. And so we're like, hey, we don't have money, we don't come from rich parents. Well, what can we do? We thought a little bit about it and we're like, you know what, let's go learn a few skills. I learned computer science, he learned accounting, and we somehow secured internships over that summer. So I found a random startup that paid me, I think $25,000 for the summer. He found a random accounting startup that paid him I think 17,000 or something. And, and together we took that money, we hired an offshore engineering team and they started working on that app while I was in school studying computer science and while my other co founder was in school studying business. So we were learning the skills that we were needed at the same time making products for that company. And then obviously by the time we graduate, we were able to take over because now we had those skills. But that was our way of finding the money because nobody would give us the money. And we were like, okay, well, I guess we're gonna have to go earn that money somehow.

Yeah. So how technical are you and your brother's name is Danny?

Yeah. So I have three co founders, Danny. My other one is Marwan. And in terms of how technical I am, I studied computer science. I know how to build apps, servers, end to end.

Okay, so you've got, you know, the best thing that I coach business owners on is to give away what, you know the best because you know what good looks like. And, and you know, so you probably, I don't know that you, that how long you coded on it. But like, at least you, at least you know how to look at it, you know what you, you know what to ask for, you know, you know, fundamentally how it all works. So now along the way, you entered and won some competitions.

Yeah. So that's so funny because I remember that again, it, what's like a lot of these things. So the period of my company starts at 2016, and obviously we're still running now, but we don't get successful. 2020. So that four year gap, 2016 to 2020, I was in the middle of graduating high school into college and then working at Apple. And so there's a competition that our school hosts where they basically get a bunch of startups and if you make it through, they give you a prize. And I actually remember the first time we applied to this competition in 2018, our business plan was so bad, when I look at it right now, I just laugh at how like, it's like the dumbest thing possible was on that business plan. And I remember, I thought, you know, every founder is so passionate and, you know, there's, they love their product so much, they believe it is the best product out there. And I knew for sure we're gonna land it. And I actually hinged our entire future success on winning that competition. And when we lost that competition, it destroyed me. For two weeks. I thought my company was garbage because they didn't validate my idea. Nobody likes it, and it was over. And that's a whole conversation. I ended up giving a TED talk about that specific story. But fast forward one year later. We actually learned from all of our mistakes. And so I was like, you know, why am I going to cry about this? Let me figure out what went wrong and actually fix it. And in that one year, we made so much progress. We apply again, we make it into this competition, and even though we didn't win first place, they invite us to an accelerator where for six months of the year, they give you $30,000, no string attached, in a panel of six mentors, and they help you scale and solve one big problem in your app. And that actually was the pivotal moment where we transition from this app that wasn't getting traction into this new company that people know us for today, this online tutoring platform. And it was because of the advice we got there. And. And again, this was around 2019, and then the competition we lost was in 2018, and obviously we started the idea in mid-2016. So that's kind of like the journey.

Yeah. So I was going to. I think you answered the question that I. That I had loaded here was what was more important to you when you entered a competition, the money or the affirmation?

The money was cool. And while we went in for the money, I realized what made the most impact for me in that competition was actually the affirmation. Because it was the first time ever, we take our idea and it leaves our friend group. You know, obviously your friends are going to say it's a cool idea. Right? No friends going to come in and critique it. And again, these friends are like, they're by no means entrepreneurs or business experts. They have no idea what they're saying either. And. And so this was the first time we're thrown in a business environment where there's real entrepreneurs and founders critiquing an idea. And when you get that feedback for the first time, it's scary. It's like you have a newborn son or daughter or whatever it may be, And. And they're like, oh, like, this is ugly. And, you know, what do you do if you're a parent of that son? Right. That's how it felt when we got that criticism on our. On our app.

And you say, you say it takes after your spouse. That's what you say. Sorry.

All right.

Well, that's right. All right. So these accelerators, I'm interested. So you take. There's, There's a couple of these around here. We're actually. We've got some tech villages here out in the Carolinas. You know, they, they, they put them in buildings that people aren't occupying anymore. Very similar to what you set up. Do these.

Do they.

Do they take a piece of the upside, or is this more like social money to help people? Is it opportunity creation, funds that are coming, it's subsidized from somewhere, or are they just kind of waiting at the end and they see what looks like a winner? And then they talk with you about investing in the company.

So the specific one we went is no strings attached. It's funded by the university. And so it's a good cause. They're like, hey, if you guys succeed one day, we would love a donation. But again, you don't really have to. And it's all on paper. I've also we've been invited to the traditional ones where they do take stakes of your company, a percentage or something. But yeah, no, this one was amazing. Like, this is the dream come true for a founder. You get $30,000, some advice, and you walk away. So it's, it's called the Jones Fossil at the University of Washington. And literally if you're affiliated to the school, you get a chance to apply to it. Which that's probably if I have to go back and look at one thing besides like, you know, post so pre funding, one thing that made the biggest difference, I would say that because that really took us to the next level.

You're, I'm sure you're moving into the investing and advising and you're getting asked to sit on boards and look at, look at deals and all of that stuff now. And I. Just a word to early stage entrepreneurs here, man. Cash is king, but equity is the kingdom. And you need to be very careful out there. In some of the industries within which I operate, they're very difficult to enter and there's a lot of barriers to entry and it can help you a lot to get aligned with the right people and to have the right partner. But you've got to make sure that a partner is going to deliver on what's expected because there's a lot of people out there that will use their history, their resume, their Rolodex to, you know, talk themselves into a big piece of your company. And you know, after two weeks you realize that, you know, I'm married to this person for 20% and they've given me everything that they could possibly give me. I probably could have just had a cup of coffee with a different person and got the exact same information. So, you know, I, I just, I just, I see a lot of it because people are so passionate about their ideas and they want to win so bad. And then, you know, they, they, they, There's a perception that these people can really help them. But, you know, all advisors, investors are not created equal. And people, you need to protect your, you know, the longer that you can hang on and the farther that you can go, you know, running a lean operation and under your own Control. Because I, I have people on this podcast time that say, you know, I. My startup was great, and then I got removed by the board. So happens. But so I know that you guys raised like a $2 million round, and then you, then you were kind of off and going from there. The app itself, it is, it makes, it makes learning and, and so lay the. We'll lay the groundwork for it. I never had. So I, I also had a 4.0, but you would have had to add up at least two and a half of my semesters to get it. So it was, you know, it was, it was, it was like that. But. So I didn't have access to tutoring. I didn't have access to test prep. You know, there was none. It was, you know, I had no idea that those things even existed for it. But for our children who have done very well, they. They had college prep, they had tutoring all along the way. Even when my son, my last one's an engineering student, even calls back to his high school, you know, physics tutor when he has a question and, you know, they. They'll talk and stuff like that. So. But it was very expensive and it was. It would not be accessible to everybody, especially if you got three kids and they're all going through it. It's. It's just, It's a. It's a burden. So you saw an opportunity to create a marketplace where students and tutors could match make. And, you know, and I'm not sure exactly how the app works because we didn't use it, but I'd love to hear about the original vision for it and then how true the actual product was to what you saw.

Yeah. And again, we bring up this theme, by the way. 4.0 has nothing to do with the 4.0 as we're were talking. It's more about that setting that goal and achieving it. Because I don't want people to come.

Oh, I would, I would have liked to have one. It would have helped.

Cool to have it. But for those listening, again, it's nothing about the 4.0. It's about. It's like setting that goal. So I don't want people to start freaking out. They have like a three, eight or something and start stressing. But you know what's funny was with our product, we've pivoted three times, and each one of those pivots was a whole different company. In a way, we started off as an app for services so you can get housework, yard work, pet care, and tutoring was One of them that didn't work out too well. Then we pivot and do in person tutoring. And then that actually started working well. But then Covid hits. Covid hits. And we're like, okay, it's been three and a half years of us just trying to figure this out. Like, is this even going to go anywhere? And then that's where we discovered TikTok. And that new idea sparks in our head where let's just reach a massive global audience and then build an online virtual platform. The goal is two things. Learning is boring, Kids don't find it fun. Let's break that stigma. And two, let's make it affordable as possible for anybody to be able to attain it, because the traditional options are super expensive, and if you don't have the money, you can't do it. Then you got the free option, which is limited by the school's hours. Now that Covid hit and nobody can go to school. What do you do? So we're like, what if we can build this Uber for getting homework help? If you're a college or high school student, whether it's 3am, 3pm, 4pm, 1pm, you make a request in 30 seconds. We connect you to a tutor. You can choose from a bunch of them based on who you like. You can text them in the app, you can call them, you can send files, you can draw, you can mirror to your laptop. You can join group chats. This social community that felt like social media merged with a learning platform. And everybody's going to be the same age. So kids, When I say kids, I'm saying students in college and high school, they're not going to feel awkward, awkward trying to get help from somebody so much older than them. It's somebody who likes the same video games as them, they watch the same movies. And that way it feels like a friend helping a friend, which again, I can talk later about. But psychologically for students, that's very big. And that really. That matched with our marketing strategy ended up being the perfect formula for success in the space. So the.

So you had a real. So the profiles were matched up, is what you're telling us. So they could. Who picked. Who did these? Did you make suggestions or did the student pick the tutor? The tutor picked the student. Or was it kind of a, you know, swipe this way, if you're. If you'd be interested in talking with this person.

Yep. So you would make a request like, just like you do with Uber. But instead of getting one option, we actually give you a good amount of options. And we also give you a recommendation. So you can choose from our recommendations or you can just message a bunch of them or read their profiles and figure them out. So it's like a, you know, a matchmaking in a way. So you text them, you see how they are, you ask them how much they charge, and if you like them, you'll. You can confirm that tutor.

Okay. And is, is it a percentage deal or is it a flat rate or, you know, how do you guys monetize the service?

So we take a percent of every transaction and the students and tutors can negotiate. They. They could do a dollar or they could do $10,000. It's really on them. We just take a percent.

Okay. All right. So similar, like a, like, almost like a gig salad, I think. Gig salad. So that's an app that I've used multiple times for entertainment. Get bands and things like that. I'm not, I. I think they're. I don't know if they're flat rate or percentage or whatever, but very, very similar. You, you outline the event that you want to do, and then you get, you know, you're. You start getting offers from all the different bands, basically, you know, yeah, I'll do the gig for this, I'll do the gig for that, I'll do the gig for that. So awesome. And then is it, Is it now limited just to tutoring or what's the. Are there expansion plans for the technology?

Yeah, so we start off as tutoring, and the app is very gamified. Like, you can join these fun, different events with other students. You can win rewards like kids win AirPods, Apple watches by unlocking new lessons and group chats. This community aspect, and obviously now we're tying in our AI where it's really. The big goal for AI is to drive prices lower as well. So if you get part of your lesson from a human being, in part from an AI obviously humans will charge way more, but AI doesn't. And so, you know, our real big mission here is how do we make it as accessible as possible and as fun as possible? And what's so funny? It's not. Sorry, not funny. But I guess in a way it's funny. There's people who come on the app, they tell the tutor, hell no, I'll never learn. Like, this is boring. Just give me the answers. But then the tutor is able to work backwards and show them why they should learn and why they should enjoy it and why it will help them in the future. It gives them purpose. And then that Student actually ends up learning. And there's so many students on our app who came in with like 2.7 GPAs or 1.9 GPAs, moved it up to like a three point level. And then we have stories of specific stories that ended up getting jobs at like Amazon or Microsoft. And they credit them being able to take, you know, tutoring sessions on our app to work on their weaknesses and get to that level. And a lot of students, for example, foreign students, foreign exchange students are, I think that's what they're called, where they came in from a different country, they're not confident in their abilities maybe because your English is weak, so they can't understand the lecture. They find a bilingual tutor who helps them out, and then they become best friends with that tutor who guides them through their journey. And so that's really what we're trying to create with this. And it's even from the very beginning our purpose was tutoring or education isn't seen as fun by kids. And, and if it is, it's just not even accessible. How do we fix that? And everything we're working on is always towards those goals.

Is the platform used globally?

It's used globally. So we actually have I think 30% of our usage outside of the United States.

Okay, awesome. And multilingual.

Yeah. Well, so primarily it's English. There are tutors who speak multiple languages and so it tends to be that the student is from an English speaking country. So the uk, maybe France, where they also speak English as well. And, and then they, they connect with our tutors. And most of our tutors are actually based in the United States. We do have some tutors in other countries like Australia, but we're very specific because in all over the world there's different curriculums. And because the majority of our customers are from the United States, we need to make sure that our tutors have been taught in that curriculum that the students are going through. And so that's why we focus. Most of our tutors are here in the States, but customers, we get a variety.

Yeah, look, you're a rare founder because not only do you have the deep technical expertise with the computer science and the coding, but you also have real marketing chops. I'd love to hear from you about the importance of building a personal brand while you're building a business simultaneously. Because the first In N Out Burger TikTok gave you a lot of affirmation that this was a place that you could really, you could really win. And so I'd love to hear your Thoughts and your journey of discovery in the marketing side of the business.

Yeah. Let me tell you as well. Just like with my education app, a lot of people made fun of it, said, this is not going to work in social media. It was worse. They're like, this is an app for kids. What's a grown man like you who works at Apple trying to do on TikTok? And. And I just told them, just watch. You'll see one day. And at that point, I was so confident in myself because there was other social media eras, like the vine days and where I missed out because of that pressure. And this time, I was not gonna let anybody get to me. I was like, just come back to me in a few years. And those same people follow me and message me like, oh, yeah, I remember back in the day when you were talking about this, and I realized back in 2020 when, you know, it was like, around the time of COVID when everybody just went home in this new app called TikTok. And I played around with TikTok, I was like, this is actually a really, really good product. Product. And so I started playing around with it, and I was like, everybody's going viral. What's stopping me from going viral? And so I just randomly posted a video of my friend eating an In N Out burger, and this was his first time eating In N Burger. In N Out is controversial. You either love it or you hate it, and it depends on what part of the world you're from.

Yeah. Do you love it or hate it?

Exactly.

Are you not. Are you taking a position or you're gonna leave that?

I'm gonna stay away from this. Just due to my last video. I. I have no feelings towards In N Out, but the point is, he takes a bite, he starts chewing on it very suspensefully, and then he was like, it's all right. And then obviously, I'm devil's advocate, so I'm like, what do you mean it's all right? You flew across the country to try this, and the comments are going crazy. They're like, what do you mean he's crazy? Blah, blah, blah. But that gets a hundred thousand views. And I'm like, this thing took me two seconds, and now I have 100, 100,000 eyeballs on me. I post another video, and it goes viral. And I was like, at that point, it's very clear. Social media is a move. Let me go build a page to promote my company. And at the same time, I should also have a personal brand. So I worked on my personal brand a Little bit. But then we got so much traction on my company. Like, a few videos moved us to like number two on the app store charts. We started getting, you know, investors reaching out. And then now I'm working like 80 hours there. I'm working. I put my personal brand to a pause. We grow our company within six months of our first video. I think it was August of 2020. So around like maybe November, ish December, we're like at a million followers, we're now the second most followed education company in the world. And we are like growing, growing, growing on our product. We raised money. Obviously we close around early 2021. We end up making Forbes 330 for being a company that pioneers marketing through social and all that goes. Right. But to, you know, we, we grow that company and you know, fast forward a little bit to 2023. Because you asked me about my personal brand, I was like, okay, you know, we're at a good spot right now with my company. We've, we've turned this thing to a profit. It's working really well. Let me go back and use everything I learned about social media to go and grow my brand. And I believe April 2023, I posted my first video. And since then I've grown like 2.7 million followers and really just applied the same tactics we did growing my brand to my personal brand. It's honestly the most powerful tool you could ever ask for because if you personally have that, not only can you go start up multiple companies using your own brand, but it's pretty easy to get on calls with people. You can build resources pretty fast. You can, you know, you don't have to do as much selling at that point where you would back, you know, earlier on when people don't really know who you are, they don't know if they trust you. Right. And so there's a lot of different advantages that you gain from having that personal brand in addition to your company. And I think it's probably the top three things I recommend founders to work on at this point, given what I've seen with it.

Yeah, I'll toe the line here. So I drove 45 minutes out of my way to get an In N Out burger. Yeah, didn't hate was good. I mean, you know, but I won't drive. I, I won't, I won't drive past a Smash burger to go to an In N Out burger though, I'll tell you that. I just, you know, but yeah, I mean, it's, it, it is what it is. So, so if if, if you were, if somebody came to you and, and it doesn't, not necessarily a tech startup, but somebody starting that painting business or somebody starting their H Vac business or it could be, you know, could be a tech thing, whatever it is, they're, they're, they lack resources. And you were going to say from a marketing perspective, looking at those platforms that are available today, using the AI tools that are available today, using the iPhones that are available today, like what, how, what would you advise people to do to at least build a personal brand in their community?

And I love that you asked this question because I believe nowadays I think marketing, if I were to go back and start another company, I'd first focus on the marketing brand angle before I go on the product. Because at the end of the day it's, I feel like it's much easier to build a good product than it is to build a good brand that people love. And based on the audience you're working with, it drastically influences your direction for the product in a way. And obviously they both matter. And somebody could go and argue the different perspective. But what I would say is for whatever industry you're in, whatever space you want to be in, let's say painting, go look what's happening on the painting side of social media. What are people posting about there, what's doing well, what's doing bad, how can you find an angle that either a is completely unique and disruptive or balanced? Take something that's maybe not doing so well, you add your own flavor and twist to it and then you make it something good. And based on that, you can start creating content. And if, if you're a business trying to promote something, don't focus on the business early on, focus on being a creator in the painting world. Have people love you for your authentic drop painting or for your authentic personality. And then through that, you build following that loves you for what you are. And then they're going to be way more willing to listen to whatever company you want to promote. Whereas if it's the other way around and you're, you come in as a founder or a business and you just start trying to shove whatever that product is down these different people's throats, they're going to swipe away. Because nowadays, you know, think social media is saturated and people are trying to promote things left and right. And so people are very selective with what they watch. And if you want them to be receptive to what you have, you kind of in a way have to be authentic and approach it like A creator first. And so that's how I would go about it. And it doesn't really matter what type of business you are. It's funny, you'll find a video for everything on social media, and you could probably build a niche and at least 5,000 to 10,000 followers in any of these different angles if you try hard enough.

Yeah. If you can create pull, it's so much easier than push, man. You got to have people that are looking for you just accepting your stuff every day. You got to be consistent with it. If AI was where it is today, in 2016, would you have pursued the same degree?

Yes, but not for the answer, you think. When I studied computer science, sure, they taught me a little bit of programming, but what I actually picked up the most there was the way to learn, because a lot. And I always made fun of it when I was in school. They're not even teaching me anything I'm using. At the workforce, everything was so theoretical and complicated, made you think so hard. And problem solve. I ended up picking up how to learn fast and problem solve less the coding languages because I actually ended up learning how to code my app on my own, how to code the things for Apple on my own. But I learned that problem solving and learning aspect that I start applying to other parts of my life. And so that's why I would take my degree again. But would I have gone and just learned a programming language if that was going to be the end result? Probably not, because I feel like now, especially when I code, I'm using AI for 60% of it, even though I know how to code. Like, I'm literally at this point just too lazy to do it myself. And we're going to be. In a few years from now, it's going to be even worse where, like, I don't even think, like, 80% of certain things that I've coded in the past would even need a programmer. You can probably run that thing through AI. And so that's my answer to that question.

Yeah. So, you know, I'm part of a group, and as part of this group, we got clones created of ourselves. So we took thousands of thousands. I mean, we. You know, I have hundreds and hundreds of hours of podcasts, interviews, other people's podcasts. I got a couple of books that I wrote. I got articles. I've got whatever's on the Internet and. And all the stuff that's, you know, over 15 or 20 years worth of having a career, and they shoved it all into this tool, and I got it last Night. And I gotta tell you, it answers my questions better than I do. And I mean, but accurately. I mean, pulling things out from 10 years ago or five years ago, but perfect points. But it's all my content and it's unbelievable. And so we're trying to break it, we're trying to see if it breaks any laws in terms of franchising or selling franchises, disclosure laws. So we're trying to, you know, trying.

To jail, like, trying to.

Yeah, you know, you put the clone in jail, you want Jeff in jail. I mean, but, but I tell you. So we, we have, we had candidates in the building today and they asked me about my book discernment, the business athletes regimen for a great life through better decisions. They asked me about it. I'm like, well, hang on a second, let's just ask the clone. And I pulled up the clone and I asked it the question. It gave this three minute answer. It was perfect. And I'm just like, so we're going to unleash this to the world. So hopefully there's concurrent, you know, thousands of conversations concurrently going on all over the world, you know, about our business and about what we want to promote or if they have questions about the things that we do. But like, I mean, it's the force multiplier that, that one thing is, I mean, I will be having conversations with people that I have never met in the middle of the night in all over the world and, and, and I, and it's probably going to turn into business, I would think.

Yeah, it's crazy you talk about that point because like that is the future. In fact, because I'm coming from the social media world. Like these two, like social media like Instagram are building these AI creators where in a way you can talk to your favorite creators and they know they literally sound like your creator and exactly what you described. And I feel like I'm not going to be shocked if in two or three years from now we will have conversations, as you said, with these AI versions of people and not actually and ever end up speaking with the person themselves.

Yes. So this interview we would just schedule with our clones and it would, it would be, we would just be, our clones would be talking and we'd be sitting at home somewhere and just, you know, you know, it's. Well in Hollywood, right? I mean, you know, they don't need actors anymore. So whoever's, whoever's images are known, liked and trusted, they can make whole movies now and you can't tell. So it's, you know, so at what point does somebody create a virtual star that people resonate with? They don't tell you it's a virtual. They. They create a Persona. They create Instagram accounts, but they don't have to pay this, clone anything. You know, it's. It's like the next version of reality tv. You know, reality TV is so pervasive because it's so inexpensive to operate, because you don't. There's no talent and. Okay, well, reality reality tv, some people.

Are going to get hurt by that. But it's. They would argue.

Yeah, well, okay, let me. Let me rephrase that. I mean, there's no talent fee. Okay. Clearly, these people are very talented for the 15 minutes they're out there. But, you know, but there's no talent fee. So you can create an. You know, you can create a. An episode. I was on Undercover Boss, and, you know, I think the budget on the whole shoot was like a million one.

Yeah.

And, you know, 16 days on the road, big crew, you know, all the trimmings, you know, professional. You know, it's a. It's a. It's a network show. But, like, I think if you look at Seinfeld, I mean, like, that's just what George Costanza got per episode. Right? And I mean all. All of that on top of that. So, you know, so the next version going from. From actors to reality to reduce costs is now just going straight virtual. And candidly, I don't think the consumers are going to care.

Yeah, well, and anybody who would argue against that, you just explained to them the wave of traditional TV to influencers and social media and how initially people made fun of it. They're like, we're not going to go sit down, watch YouTube. And now the generation now consumes more influencers on social media than they do with traditional. And so I would argue the same thing. If you build those AI Personas, what's stopping people from falling in love with that and then now that becoming the new face of entertainment.

Yeah. I mean, I watched my son watch YouTube on the television, watch it on his phone, watch it on his computer the whole time. And I'm, you know, trying to get the networks, but now I go to YouTube, I dial up a podcast, or if I'm interested in something like, that's. That's literally where I go. And it's free and. And it's. And I can get exactly what I want when I want it, and it's. It's great. So awesome. So future of coding, you don't have any. I Guess, I guess it is what it is. Like everything, everything's, the world is flattening. Everything's, you know, we're able to flatten our businesses out. We're able to, I mean I, I am on a personal mission to optimize, you know, all of our marketing across all of our brands and all of our platforms. You know, there's, you know, there's one, there's one use case where we could, you know, I could make a case that we need 2100 pieces of content and I could hire agencies to create these and create a process to do it. And we did. But I'm competing with that on the back end with a group of AI people to build me, you know, a spreadsheet with all the, with all the data in it and then to, you know, build a, build a bot that can just constantly create content that's going to be equal to it, but you know, do it in 10 minutes and things like that. And if you're, you know, part of what we have to be careful of as business owners is not to ever be. We need to disintermediate any intermediaries between us and our customer. And I'm sorry, but a lot of advertising agencies are between us and our customer. And can you imagine like managing an ad agency through the evolution of AI where you were charging premium rates for premium talent to do premium things and now people are coming to you and creating almost like kind and similar quality, you know, through Opus and all of these other, all these other AI tools. It's really an amazing time. I wish I was a little bit younger, but you know, I'll, I'll, we'll stick it out and I'm, I'm, we're committed to it.

It's crazy as you said, like this is destroying industries and we're realizing how much we've been over charged for so many of these different services that now we're able to do it like literally for pennies on the dollar and it's only gonna get better. Like we're legit one or two years in from like, like it just like this whole era kind of started a year or two ago and give it two to three more years from now. I am scared in a way, but I'm super excited for what we can do.

Yeah, I mean it's, it is. If I was, if I was a young person, I would be very concerned. I would be a little concerned and very thoughtful about, you know, what I chose to do. Because so much of the way we've done things is, is no longer going to be required. But, but it, but it is exciting. And guess what? We get more competitive. We get, we get to spend our time, energy and our talents doing things that maybe are matter more or a little bit differently. There's always an adjustment. You know, when the, the steel mills closed over in Pittsburgh and Pennsylvania and all that, that's a tech hub, right? So they remade themselves as a tech hub. And you know, you see it, I mean there's great technology over in Ireland, so there's all of these, all these places. As one industry goes out, it fills itself with another industry. But it, but it's not a legacy industry. It's whatever's new and hot and then people move there. So look, just, you gotta be agile, you gotta be mobile, you gotta be willing to adapt. And I think, you know, you just, you have to be amenable. You've got to be amenable to operate within the structure and the framework of the world that exists around you, not the one that you used to have or you wish didn't change. And yeah, it's amazing what a great time to be alive, man, it is.

With such a peak era. And as you said, it's all about pivoting to what customers want in the world you're in. Most startups, successful startups and companies have made that change and pivoted multiple times. And you can't stay stagnant and be like, this is what I had in mind two years ago and that's what is in it. Persist, you're forced to adopt and adapt or you're going to fall behind.

It's either agility or fragility, you choose. Yeah, all right. That's a tweet, by the way. Tweet that please. All right, that's all right. So are you getting opportunities to look at new companies today?

Yeah, there's always opportunities. Like whether they want to come in the big tech companies, come back and join us or hey, come advise this company or come, can you please be on the board of my company? And yes, there's a lot of those opportunities.

Now how do you sort those?

It's interesting. I've learned to just hear, well, depending on what it is. I obviously value my time, but I'm open minded to hearing what people have to say and, and I take more time now actually meeting new people and hearing perspectives. Whereas two years ago when I was so focused on my company, just because we were in that state of just like, you know, build, build, build, build, build and build I didn't really step out from the office and now I am doing a little bit more of that and I hear, and obviously I look at different things especially because I can put on my entrepreneur hat on and be like, well, well, how are they doing this? If I was in their shoes right now, would I be doing this? Or is this the right decision? Is this a bad decision? So there's a lot of different factors to look into, but I'm haven't really made any crazy decisions where it comes to like investing in companies just yet or joining companies. But I feel like in the next year and a half, year to year and a half from now, I will for a few different companies just because like I'm like indirectly mentoring a bunch of them and I, I feel like there will be a time where I start spending, you know, more efforts on that because it's fun and I feel like it's a good way to give back. But more importantly there's, there's just a lot of cool technologies and it's impossible for me to go and build them all. So if I can just join by being an advisor on one and I, I'd be down, you know, I like, I like it.

I like to run plays that work and maybe it's time for another club. Yeah, put them in a club, you.

Know, maybe, maybe that's the move.

Yeah. Have you. What's. Do you have a sense where the next tick tock's coming from or what the next platform is going to be? Has is it. Is something starting to emerge that, that you're paying attention to?

I'm always paying attention and to the different platforms out there and if something comes out, I'll go put in some effort like the new Threads app and there was the lemon app that TikTok had and I don't think there's something at the very moment that I'd be like, oh yeah, this is going to be the next big thing. But I think there is a potential for disruption here and it's could involve the AI slash blockchain in a way where, you know, now with AI there's first of all identity crisis is going to be a big thing or not. Just like people replicating content that other people have in mass distribution and then also authenticity. And as you said, it could take 10 seconds to make a video from AI. So what's stopping people from pushing so many different narratives and so well, how do you tie all these different AI created pieces of content to a sole point, whether it's an institution like this piece of content was derived or came from this company or this came from this creator. Right. How do you do that? And how do you take AI and have it come in and enhance the social media experience and either a, the companies that are predominant today in this space do it, or if they don't adopt fast enough, like we were discussing a few minutes ago, some other companies that come in and do it. But for a new social media company to be built right now, it's going to be very, very, very hard. It's going to take a lot of money because you think about it like the scale of these social media companies right now, how do you think a company is going to go raise like a two million dollar round and compete? It's some, it's really hard and so it's very hard to get a new player in the game. TikTok did miracles doing it and so there's that battle right now. Right. And so I'm just, I'm trying to figure out, well, like, is it going to be a new company that comes in and does it, or is it going to be one of these existing companies that does it and I'm ready to move on to whatever platform that does it if a new one does.

Yeah. Amin, outside of business, what are some of the things that you're passionate about, some of the things you want to make an impact on in your life? Education, children, immigration, you're from Syria. Like, what are, what are some of the things that you think about where you, you have visibility and, and maybe you'll have some re, you'll have resources to be able to really make a difference.

Education is a big one, even society and, and people like, like, especially I'm in Seattle right now, I was in LA just like literally not too long ago and people are just like on the streets without homes, going through these different problems. There's a lot of, a lot of things, you know, internationally where, you know, food is a big issue, water is a big issue. And so there's a lot of different causes. Everything I've done in my career so far has been something that has a positive impact to humanity, obviously with my company, Carmen Education. And I don't know exactly what it's going to be, but I feel like I will touch a lot of those different areas and my end goal would be to build some sort of institution, organization that is finding one of these big causes and really solving them, because I feel like we have money and intelligence and smart people to solve a lot of these problems. But why Are they not solved yet? And I think there was a survey that I read online where they interviewed a bunch of kids in elementary school, and they asked them, how do you solve these problems, big humanitarian problems that we're facing today? And the basic answers those kids gave were, like, the correct answers, like, yep, this is actually all it takes, but then why is it not being done? And so, yeah, that. That's. I feel like I'm just very. I'm. I'm optimistic that we. This next generation is. Is going to be the one to. To come in and solve a lot of these. And I feel like I really want to be at that forefront and I want to contribute from, you know, the. The. The experience I've built and learned working in these companies. Right. Take that business mindset and going in and solving these, whether it's humanitarian or, you know, good causes in education, etc.

I love it. Last question. If you had one sentence to make an impact in somebody's life, what would that be?

Don't overthink. Just get started.

Yeah, man. Amen to that.

Love it.

Awesome. Amin, this has been an absolute pleasure, man. I've really enjoyed. This is a great way to head me into the weekend.

Yeah, it was a pleasure getting to talk to you. I appreciate you having me on. And, yeah, I'm also excited for the week. I need some sleep, actually. Been working too long this week.

All right, man, well, get some rest. Again, on behalf of everybody, thanks for being on. This has been Amin Shayko, and we have been here on the home front. I am Jeff Duden. Thank you for listening.