Can Red Light Therapy Reverse Skin Damage & Boost Mitochondria? Vitiligo Recovery, UVB Hacks & More

Khloe Kardashian bought this device for all her sisters, actually, and then publicly endorsed me. And I didn't have to pay a dime. They just like made me set up this new payment called bill, and they just sent me like 20 grand. They were so cool to work with.

Welcome to the show, folks. When I'm recording this podcast, sometimes off to, I guess my right, maybe your left, depending on how you're looking at the screen. I often have these crazy devices, and one that's been beside me for many shows lately is this crazy looking contraption. You probably can't see the whole thing, but let me. What I'll do is I'll adjust my camera just, just for a second so you guys can see what that looks like. It's like the craziest looking red light panel, if we want to call it that, that I've ever messed around with before. I've got. I can push little buttons on it and it'll do like uva, uvb, cob. I forget what that even means. Led. And it's called an Ultron. Sounds like a. Sounds like a Star wars character.

And, you know, there's a lot of red light therapy devices out there. There's beds, there's mats, there's, there's panels, etc. And my apologies if you're listening, my voice faded. I was just readjusting the camera. But the guy who designed this thing, Chris Sweeting, he reached out to me a few months ago and I was really interested in his unique approach to phototherapy and just his backstory in general. Chris is here with me on the show. His company is EMR Tech. That's spelled A K T E K. All the shownotes are going to be@BenGreenfieldLife.com EMRpodcast if you want to dig into some more juiciness on all things photobiomodulation. But Chris, what got you interested in the whole realm of light?

Yeah. So thanks, Ben. It's cool to be here. I grew up watching you, man. When I was like 24 to like 28.

Oh, thanks for making me feel old. Yeah. Right off the bat, just backhanded compliment. Thank you.

Yeah, yeah, well, yeah, it's the truth. So basically, when I was three years old, I got the disease called vitiligo, the same disease that Michael Jackson had.

By the time I was like five, I was walking around with an umbrella because the doctors told me to stay out of the sunlight. Which, you know, it ends up being that it's like literally the ultraviolet Light. They thought that was going to like damage my skin even more and like give me skin cancer because I had no melanin. No, like no essentially photo protection in my skin. So they were really worried. Turns out.

You literally can't get skin cancer basically with vitiligo, so. And it's crazy because, because it's the sun and ultraviolet light that actually repigmented my skin. And I was, I was pretty disfigured by the time I was nine.

To the point where, you know, people were like, I couldn't go anywhere, dude.

Yeah, it's like, by the way, it's like for people who aren't in front of Google images or whatever right now for vitiligo, isn't it like, like reddish patches all over the place?

No, but I actually, one of my teammates has that totally on her. Like all the worst ones are one of the worst ones I've ever seen. But it looks so cool now. But you can see a little bit on my thumb where it's just depigmented white.

Yeah, it's almost like, it's almost like, like splotching kind of.

Yeah. And it's, it's basically you have too much epidermal hydro hydrogen peroxide in the skin. And you know what, you know hydrogen peroxide does to your hair turns it basically white. It destroys the melanocyte. We have just excessive amounts. And once this doctor in Germany, like I went to 20 doctors, dude, they put every single type of cream on me. I used to have to put makeup on myself every morning. Like it was because it was so disfiguring. It was bad, bro. But.

So this German doctor found out that, wow, these people have too much hydrogen peroxide in their skin. So she developed a cream called pseudocatalyse. She was a PhD researcher and a dermatologist. She developed this cream. It reduced the hydrogen peroxide in your skin within 10 minutes. Then you would go into narrow band ultraviolet. B3 11, 312 nanometer. So that's a isolated wavelength. That's why they call it narrow band. It's a narrow band of light in the UVB spectrum. And I would go into that specific wavelength of light and it literally repigmented my skin by the time within six months it started. And then within the next like one to two years I was fully repigmented. And I've literally never had a regression except my hands and feet. That's known in the, it's common in the literature. It's just they think it's to do with how much chemicals are put on your hands and how much wears on your feet with the shoes and the socks and everything like that. So. But. But everywhere else, man, I've totally repigmented my body. So no more makeup.

So. So is the story of your company like you just taking that light and reproducing it or how'd you start making these. These panels?

Long story short is I. I had these, these beds, these tanning booths in my room, bro. I had a broadband UVA narrow band uvb. I had broadband UVA uvb and I grew up with these in my bedroom since I was five. Like five years old. I remember I couldn't even open the doors.

Are these like the same kind of tanning beds you'd find like a hair salon or a gym?

No, they're as we. So though we use the exact same bulbs that I grew up using. It's called their Phillips from the Netherlands. It's a company in the Netherland Vetted ultraviolet product you can buy. Right. Because it's, it's hazardous. Your ultraviolet light can be hazardous in excessive amounts or if it's just like a, like a, like a bad bulb or something like that, they make a mistake. So 311, 312 nanometers. That's the wavelength that I was using in the UVB spectrum. UVB does create, you know, fingerprint mutations in the skin. But 311312 nanometers. The reason why they use that is because it has the lowest mutation frequency. So you get all the benefits of like increased vitamin D through synthesis of cholesterol in your skin with. And also a ton of different, a plethora of different benefits with the lowest mutation frequency or rate in, in, in the ultraviolet light spectrum, so. Or UVB spectrum.

So how much time like compare and contrast this with sunlight. For me, like if I'm using the uva UVB spectrum in the wavelength that you've just described, how long would I need to be in front of it if I didn't have vitiligo? And I just wanted the benefits of say vitamin D production and winter, for example.

So you're going for. It's what's. What's called minimal erythema response. Right. The erythema is basically the blood pooling into the skin to harvest the ultraviolet energy back into the blood. That's why you can push on it and displace it. But what, what I mean by. And that's the erythema. But what I mean by a minimal erythema response or dose? It's actually dose.

Is you want to turn slightly pink. So Ben, it looks like you got a pretty actually good like 10 on. So I think you'd be good around three minutes.

Okay. I, I have, I have my unit set. I think it came factory default set of 4.

For that. For that you can, you could, you could, you could do five. You could do five and you'd probably get medium with five. But that's the thing. My tanning device is even lower, like a little bit more tame than a full blown ultraviolet narrowband tanning booth. You know, we're using slightly so you can go even more. I think if I was to estimate. It's not a recommendation, but I think what would trigger med for you? Around four minutes.

Could you equivalent the time length of uva, uvb using a panel like this to how long you'd have to spend out in the sun to get a similar amount?

30 minutes at 12.

Okay. And is it true? I know we're bouncing all over the place here and I want to hear a little bit more about how you came to form this company. Is it true that if UVA and UVB exposure is accompanied by the red light spectrum, that it somehow balances it out in such a manner that it becomes potentially less hazardous?

Yeah, absolutely. Because. Well, you see, yes, I would use the red in the morning or just get exposure to sunlight in the morning, like morning sunlight, because it preconditions the skin to accept the ultraviolet light in the afternoon. Then it's, you know, the reason, the reason it's red again at night is it photobiomodulation resolves acute inflammation. That's Mary Dyson's work she did on rats and humans. But that it's really buried. But that's all she studied was, was wound healing and essentially how the effect of photobiomodulation and resolving acute inflammation. So in the morning, the red light preconditions your skin by thickening the stratum corneum and thickening and basically, yeah, thickening the stratium corneum. It's called the solar callus.

Of the, of the skin. And so it's more durable in the afternoon to accept the UV light. And then in the, in the evening when the sun, when it's sunset, it's red again. And that resolves the acute inflammation induced by the ultraviolet light in the afternoon.

Okay, this is super. I haven't talked about this on the show before, Chris. I always thought when people say solar callus that they were talking about time spent out in the sun, you get a tan. The tan helps to protect you from the rays of the sun. But it sounds to me like what you're saying is that if I am going to be a sun seeker and get all the health benefits of the sun, in an ideal scenario, I am, and this is way too woo woo, natural and ancestral for many people, I think. But I'm going to get red light exposure from the sun or if I can't, from something like a red light panel in the morning, literally seeing the sunrise and. And then I'm going to spend the day, be out on the beach, out in the sunlight, working in the garden, whatever. And then as the icing on the cake, I want to also expose my body to the red light of spectrum at sunset. And that's kind of like the perfect sandwich for human skin. Like a sun sandwich.

Yeah, that's a sun sandwich right there. And it's, you know, here's the thing, man. Like, if you, if you don't do that, then there is like, there is like the lious effects. If you don't do that, then the sun is bad. It's not even, it's not, it's not that it's bad for you, but, but it comes with negatives if you don't do that. It does come with negatives.

If you're just in Las Vegas eating french fries by the pool between 2 and 4pm you slept until 10am, never saw sunrise, you're in the club and you never see sunset. That's an example of improper sunlight exposure.

Yeah. And I think that is the kind of scenario that does result in some kind of pathology. If it's done for 10 years. That's. That's exactly the kind of thing that. And I just, I was just talking about that with my friend. That, that's exactly what I think is, is a big problem. I still think it's better, like, compared to getting no sunlight at all. I still think it might be better.

Yeah. Well, maybe depending on whether or not you are actually eating the french fries. The whole seed. Seed oil's oxidative damage from sunlight radiation might be a discussion for another day.

Do you know I saw that myself, bro. I got. What do you mean? My, like my fur, dude. I. Okay, so I was at an Airbnb, bro. I had perfect, totally perfect skin, man. And I was like. So I was like, I know this UVB light because I've been doing it every day. Even synthetic doesn't really age the skin. But I was at an Airbnb in Costa Rica and they had this weird oil and I was like, ah, it was like, it was like, definitely a seed oil, dude. And I was just, I was going through it, an audit, a corporate audit. And I was like, like, I don't care right now. I can't deal with this. Like, I'm just cooking with this right now. And dude, I cook and I never cook with that. And I cooked with it. I spent a lot of time in the sun as well, dude. And I got it. I got some oxidized seed oil in my face. Like which is, which is in age spots is a sunspot. It's, it's small. But I, for me, I noticed it because I never had any kind of hyperpigmentation at all. And I think that's what happens when you eat the seed oils and then go in the sun.

Yeah. People say the same thing about oxidized fish oil and sunspots, like having a rancid or fish oil that's been exposed to a lot of temperature or oxidation. Yeah. I don't know of any imaging studies because they can do actual imaging studies of collagen structure, wrinkles, et cetera, that have looked specifically at seed oils versus a control group and some that exposure. But I suspect that the whole grandma from Something about Mary effect definitely takes place.

It's probably an inflammatory effect. It's a compounded inflammatory instead of a balanced inflammatory anti inflammatory thing. I think that's probably what it is.

Yeah. Not to mention in many cases, people consuming a diet rich in oxidized oils or fried foods and ultra processed foods have a low intake of collagen supporting foods, which I don't think does the skin any favors either. Geek out on this light with me. This ultron, just as a matter of illustrative description of what you create, what comes out of your crazy mind. Chris, walk me through the components of this thing and why you choose to focus on what you do with light. As far as the frequencies that you use and how you work in the uva, UVB piece, which you've already described a little bit. Just geek out on this with me.

Yeah, man. Well, we use the wavelengths of light that are scientifically proven to enhance mitochondrial function. And they by mitochondrial function, I mean mitochondria is the powerhouse of the cell. There's three wavelengths of light. Two in the red visible spectrum, one in the near infrared spectrum. So it's 630 nanometers, 670, those are two red wavelengths. And then there's 830 nanometers. That's one near infrared wavelength. Essentially, what these, with these wavelengths of light do is they hit the fourth enzyme in the mitochondrial electron transport chain. This is where all your electrons get processed. They sp and it, and it generates chemical energy for your body to use.

Is that cytochrome C oxidase?

Yeah, cytochrome C oxidase. So these wavelengths, 630, 670, 830, they hit this enzyme. It's called photo dissociation. So they unbind nitric oxide, they dissociate the nitric oxide from the electron transport chain. Because nitric oxide and oxygen flow basically compete down for flow down the chain. When you unbind nitric oxide, oxygen is more effectively processed and the net result is more adenosine triphosphate. So those are the photobiomodulation.

Wavelengths that we use.

Quick question about that. When nitric oxide dissociates from this complex in the mitochondria from cytochrome C oxidase, is that one of the reasons people get a little bit of a vasodilatory vasculature effect from red light, because the nitric oxide winds up in the vasculature?

I'm not sure that that actually happens. I think that it unbinds somewhere like into the cell and then it's, it's elevated, but it's released or activated or released by ultraviolet A. That's what I believe is the case.

Well, what I mean is when it, when it's released, though, when it's released, does it have a similar effect on the body? As if I'd like, you know, drink some beet juice or something like that.

I've never felt like that. I've never noticed that. And I'm not, I've never read any literature about that, but I've just never looked into it. I've always, I've always known for sure that uva, which is in that device, broadband uva, does vasodilate, I'm sure the.

Heat, I was going to say, because you do get it when you, when you get a mild heating effect, even when you're laying in one of these red light beds, for example. And that alone might cause a little bit of a cooling mechanism to take place with the body sending blood to the extremities. So I'm sure that's part of it as well.

Well, yeah, and it's like wherever energy goes, blood flows. So there would have to be some sort of. Actually, you know what, dude? That's true. Because wherever energy goes, blood flows. So it will, it's just. It's just a much less potent vasodilator than uva.

Okay. All right, so you've got. Built into this device, you said 630, 670 and 830 wavelengths of red and then near infrared light.

There might even be 850 in there. Dude, I have like 20 different specs of units now, so it's like so hard for me to keep track of all this shit.

Okay, well that's a pretty slight difference, 20 nanometers between 830 and 850.

Yeah, it might be both. It might be both is what I'm saying.

95% of people listening in right now do not care.

Different. So. So you've got those three wavelengths and I mean, is that different? You know, because I have like, you know, I do some work with da Vinci because I work with 10x and we. I've got like a Saralite bed and then a thoroughlite panel above one of my exercise bikes. I've done stuff with joovv before. So I've got these Joov lights. Are they all pretty much using the same frequencies or. Or wavelengths?

Yeah, well, they do use the same wavelengths. You know, 850. You know, some of the companies probably went with 850 because it's a lot actually. It's actually a lot cheaper than 830. That's the case.

That seems kind of weird. It would be cheaper and there's not that much of a difference in the nanometers.

I know, but it's just. It's just true. It's just true. I found that out through one of my manufacturers.

Yeah, basically just just switching to 850 to try and meet my price that I needed.

And I was like, like is. And then I realized it was that big of a difference. But I. I'm not. I'm not sure about all the brands.

What, What I can say is that, I mean, for example, the Firehawk, I. I made that for Duncan Keith. The Chicago Blackhawk.

What's. What's the Firehawk?

The Firehawk is the lower end model of what I gave you, which is the Ultron. I literally drew that on the back of a cereal box at like 1am Dude. And I'm just trying to advance light therapy. Like literally that standing behind you is the first full body laser acupuncture device in the world.

What's that even mean? Laser acupuncture?

So you can hit the meridian points of the body with like laser light. The Cobb chips are. It kind of. It's not tech. They're kind of in between like an LED and, and a laser because essentially it's not really in physics terms but kind of they do hit the acupoints of the body or the, or even the joint points with increased light energy.

And essentially it's a diode cluster. But like in comparison like if you took like a, like, like irradiance meter, right, and you put, you put it up to the, just the normal diodes on my, on my, on the unit that you have and then you moved it over to the cob chip, the difference would be like 200 to 1400.

So what do you mean cob chip? Sorry if I, if I sound dumb here. I might need some explanation of this.

It's called a circuit on board chip. So the large globes, the large globes on that. So these things there's. Yes, yes, those large globes. So all the small diodes are 3 watt diodes. Right. But we pack 64 of those 3 watt diodes into the circumference of an inch and then beam it out using a cone shaped 30 degree lens which further concentrates the light. Okay. So you, you'll essentially and you can even feel that, that those are much more powerful in terms of heat.

But the difference is like a thousand percent more power essentially.

So if it's acting on the meridian points of the body when I'm standing in front of it or behind it, wouldn't that change based on how tall somebody is? Like where the lights are going to hit?

Yeah. So you're a pretty good candidate for this. Obviously. I've thought about making it adjustable and shit but that's, that's pretty, it's maybe, maybe I do that in the future.

What height is it ideally designed for then?

Yeah, so Duncan Keith, I made it for myself and Duncan Keith, I'm six one and three quarters but anyone from like five eleven to like six foot three can kind of, you know you could get away with like 510 to 63 is it works pretty well. How tall are you Ben?

I'm six three. So if you're super short you would have to kind of like maybe put a little platform to stand up on this. This people might not be able to see with the camera but right in the middle there's a big diode. Should that one be like towards the back of the head?

Yeah, it should be like line. Honestly I made it to line up with your forehead.

Yeah, it's right around my forehead to be honest with you. But if you're so, so based on that, if you're facing it. Because honestly most of the time when I'm using it, it's for the first 20 minutes of work in the morning, so it's on my back. But if you're facing it, do you have to be cautious about eye exposure? Because I've heard that with red light the eye protection goggle thing isn't as big of a deal. But with UVA and UVB it might be.

Yeah, man. Because I, and I, I've seen this happen, dude. Well, I've, you know, I've done it to myself. One, I've made all the mistakes with, with ultraviolet light, dude. I burned myself so bad a couple times.

You burnt yourself?

Oh, I burned myself, dude, with all my lights when I was, when I was. A long time ago when I was like.

Using them for a bit ligo when I was like 12, 13 punching in the password program the time I, I made mistakes where I had multiple tanning beds in my bedroom, right. So I would use one that didn't have four doors. So I would have to switch and turn around and do my back. And so I had to do that for eight minutes one time. Just. I don't know, I wasn't thinking. I came in program my four door for eight minutes and just cooked in it, dude. Oh my God.

So there's that much of a difference between like four minutes in front of this thing and eight minutes in front.

Of the one that I was using, which is a four door full blown.

Oh, that's different than the beds that are, than the panels that you're making now then.

Yes, they're so much more tame because that, that, yes, that would, that device that would have to come with much more heavy disclaimer. I'm making, I'm trying to make every day use safe lights that people can't hurt themselves with. Like you can't hurt yourself with that.

Yeah. So I should have goggles on if I'm facing it and looking at the.

UVA UVB because it'll make your eyeball red. It'll make your eyeball red. Like the same thing that happened to your skin. Like your whole eye will go red, man.

How far away from, from a panel do you have to stand? Typically if someone's using a red light panel.

So that one's, that one's really good. It depends techn, like what kind of drivers they're using. We use meanwell power drivers. You can Google them. It's like a, used to be a trade secret. But I don't really care anymore. They take the flicker out and the magnetic field is zero. We're like the first company to figure that out.

Does that translate into, meaning it's flicker free, low emf?

Yeah, exactly. And so depending on the drivers in your device, you want to, you want to obviously stay outside of the electromagnetic field because also like these LED devices are like, like there's like a lot of dirty electricity. You don't want to be in the field because it's not just an electromagnetic field, it's a dirty electromagnetic field. So with the Meanwell power driver, that's the cleanest thing ever. But if you want to go look at the cost of them, they're pretty brutal.

You're going to freak out a lot of people because obviously people are using all sorts of different red light devices. Are you telling me that you should use some kind of a meter to test it? And if so, what would you be looking for?

I mean, you, you would want to test for electromagnetic field. So yeah, electric field, magnetic field, Electric field's always going to be there to some extent in our devices. They're so powerful. So the, the thing about the Cobb chip, that's why I explained how powerful it is, you can use it at a further distance, right? That's what it translates to. And you can use it completely outside the electric field with, with all these devices, these other devices that are just like 3 watt diodes just, they all kind of look like the same. The red light there, you can't get a therapeutic dose outside the electric field. You actually, this, you can't.

I see what you're saying, but does it matter if it's just like 20 minutes? Like, is that a big deal?

I mean, I don't think it does at all. I honestly don't think it does at all. Because I think carrying your phone on you for an hour is more, more radiation.

Yeah. I was going to say like walking through the average airport, you're probably getting more radiation than standing in front of a red light panel for 20 minutes.

Dude, I'm, I'm like, I used to be like that and I'm like, this like, does not good for my mental health, you know, like, like to like. Dude, there's one point in my life I had a cell because I used to go in before EMR tuck started and, and measure the electromagnetic fields in like infant's houses. Dude, this was like 10 years ago. I was 24.

Yeah, my, my take on it, Chris, is if you are getting adequate magnesium and minerals, you're earthing you're grounding, you're sleeping in a room that's preferably low emf. You don't have to be a total luddite. And there are certain devices, probably my hyperbaric chamber, my vibrating relaxation chair, some of my red light devices, et cetera. Yeah, I'm getting exposed to an electrical field. But then the question also becomes, does the advantage that it gives you outweigh any disadvantages? Even like that 8 Sleep Mattress or Topper, apparently that tests pretty high for electromagnetic fields. But let's say for you, that's the difference between getting five hours of sleep a night or eight hours of sleep. I question whether the extra three hours of sleep that you're getting per night overrides the radiation damage you might be getting from a little bit of extra electromagnetic exposure during a night of sleep. You know?

Absolutely, dude. And people, for like, you know, the first step in terms of EMF is not like going crazy. Like, oh, does this device have emf? It's like take a, like detox from your cell phone, like turn like as much as you can, just like get away from that thing. Like I, I, the, the, the, the mass addiction is these phones, dude. And they're so bad, they're so bad for like so many reasons. Posture. It's just like, it's just, they're just really, really underrated in terms of how they can damage your life.

Yeah, I get jealous of my wife. She's rarely on hers because she rarely has to. Let's talk about marketing terms. In the red light industry, you hear the word full spectrum thrown around a lot. What does that mean?

Yeah, well, I mean it would, I mean, I guess it would mean that the like full spectrum of sunlight, I mean, I honestly stopped paying attention to like, I can go talk about a lot of the industry here, but like, I stopped paying attention to a lot of these, these other companies like a long time ago because I realized that like, they're really like, I, I don't mean to sound in any way condescending.

To anybody, but I don't, I don't care. We're all adults here. Like, people can, yeah.

Like, I just, I just don't. They're like about three or four years ago I was like, I'm not going to listen to these guys anymore. Like, I'm just like, turn them off because they're not on my level at all.

Well, a lot of, a lot of people listening are going to jump right out and say, well, that sounds pretty haughty of you. So, so what do you mean when.

You say that that's fine? I mean, you can just go take a look at the manufacturing level on the Ultron on my website. And then if you, if you want to send me something you think is comparable at the, you know, a similar price point, I mean, that's, that's really all I think I have to say.

Okay, explain that though. Like, let's say somebody's listening right now. They're like, screw it, I don't have the time to go visit this website. I'm right in the middle of a workout right now. Like, walk me through what it is that you've done that that's different.

Well, I mean, we, like I said, we're the first, we're the first company to actually take the flicker out. We took the magnetic field completely out. Like, you can take a tri field or magnetic field meter and push it up literally against devices gone.

And just in terms of, of the Cobb chips, essentially. Chloe. So Chloe Kardashian bought this, this device for all her sisters, actually, and, and then publicly endorsed me. And I didn't have to pay a dime. She actually, she actually transferred me. Dude.

So did you have to like adjust the meridians for like butt real estate or anything like that? Custom version.

They were so cool. They just like made me set up this new payment called bill and they just sent me like 20 grand and. And then it was like, they were so cool to work with and then I got connected with all them.

But.

But yeah, man, it's. I think, I really think. And then you can take a look at any single kind of ultraviolet device on the market.

This is the first full body laser acupuncture device. Technically it is a full body low level laser acupuncture device. That's technically what it could be deemed. And I just don't think there's any innovation like that out there.

Explain this to me. If I'm standing in front of another red light panel or laying in a red light bed and we talk about the body having these meridians and the concept of laser acupuncture targeting those meridians, those things kind of COVID the whole body, wouldn't I be still getting this, what you're calling the acupuncture effect? Walk me through why that'd be any different.

Well, because usually it's done with the laser. So it's done with higher irradiance beams of light and not low level laser.

So what you're saying then is like the way that you've concentrated all these diodes to Be super dense and powerful.

That.

Because there's a few like super dense spots. Those spots are targeting meridians, so you're getting a more powerful light concentration in those areas.

Yeah. And we may put lasers in them, we may put lasers in the middle of the COB chips.

But that's something that I'm working on. But yeah, essentially, essentially it's getting close to, to being that. And I think, you know, a lot. There's a lot of devices on the market and they all look the same and you know, I guess I'm going to cause some controversy on this one, but this is my last podcast and I'm so happy to do it.

Ben got in the blaze of glory. Here we go. That's right.

That's great. The reason that they all look the same is because they are the same. I mean that was like a joke that I had, but it's not really a joke. I mean, I just got sick of like people asking me like, hey, like, what do you think of this device? I'm like, you mean the same device that every single other company sells, like with a different stand and a different logo? It's just, that's what it is.

So I mean, like, are you just saying that or you know that to be the case? Because I mean, so you know, you'll see some things on Alibaba or whatever kind of sort of looks similar but then you really get a close up and it's not. I've reached out to a few companies. They say they're using like medical grade.

Medical grade materials that are different than the ones that you get from China. So I mean, how do you know? How do you know like what though?

Like, like what? Like what? Like medical grade what? Like medical grade iron. Like that. They forged the cake like the cases out of like. I don't. It doesn't. That's, that's, that's, that's why I stopped paying attention to this industry.

That's painting with a really broad brush though. I mean you think there's really like, like they're all the same, basically.

Yes. And the difference would be the drivers. And if they, you know, and they what, what everyone should be doing is putting meanwhile drivers in their units. Like, like we are. Because they're the best. And that's. They, like I said, they reduce the flicker to zero and they take the magnetic field out. There is still electric field. It suit is really well mitigated better than all the other drivers. But I was paying like $5 a driver. Meanwhile, drivers are like, like 60, 70 bucks a piece.

So, okay, so it's gonna, it's gonna eat in the margins. But if there was, if there was like, there's like five companies that listen to this podcast because I'm sure some red light manufacturers are going to tune in and they switched using Meanwell drivers, would that just like fix everything and then they'd be the equivalent of what you do?

Yeah, essentially. I mean, they'd have different cases, but yeah, I mean, if they, if they added in the Cobb chips, then, then they would be on the same power level. We do have some patents granted patents, actually.

So what are your patents?

You know, we have granted patents on the Krypton models. So we gotta have. They're not patent pending, they're granted.

What's a Krypton?

A Krypton is a smaller ultraviolet device that is, it's like the baby brother of what you have, which is the Ultron.

Okay.

All right, so I love superheroes. I actually had a chance. I can tell a lot of names on my oak bro. I had to change a lot recently. We had to just chat GBT the whole list and put it over to something.

What, are you getting sued by Marvel or. No, man.

But I could.

Okay, so preventive business practices. All right, so you've got full spectrum, and then here's another couple of terms. I would love to hear your take on this. You hear broadband and narrowband is other terms that are used. What do those mean?

That's legit. That's legit. Broadband is the full. So broadband UVA is what we have in the Ultron. That's the whole, that's the whole UVA spectrum. Narrow band. Narrow band in the context. So It's a narrowband UVB, 311, 312. That is a narrow band of light. Only 311 and 312 nanometers out of like the, the whole wavelength or whole spectrum. So it's two wavelengths in that spectrum instead of the whole broad spectrum. Right. So it's a narrow band. Those are legitimate terms. That's, that's, those are legitimate.

So broadband refers to uva. Narrow band refers to uvb. When we're talking about red light, we're up in like the 600 to 8 hundreds. UVB.

Oh, that, that's basically the, the red light is narrow band too. Right? Because it's, it's a, it's, it's a, it's an isolated wavelength.

Oh, it's a narrow band. That's what you mean.

Right. And the reason we use the narrow band, we Use the broadband UVA is because. Is. And narrowband UVB is because the narrow band in the uvb, that wavelength specifically is deemed to be the least mutagenic. So like, not only am I going to Philips in the Netherlands to source my bulb, so you don't have to put the trust in EMR tech. You can relax and know that we're using Philips. FDA cleared ultraviolet, most vetted ultraviolet product in the world. Expensive, but it is what it is.

And, and they have the least mutation frequency. And, and also Philips, because they've been around so long, they have been used in the, in the medical literature for narrowband UVB therapy the most.

So yeah, least. Least mutation frequency meaning lower risk of me like growing a third testicle on my backside.

Yeah, which is a funny segue. Yeah, which is a funny segue because I remember an article when I was growing up about the shining red light on the balls. That was. That one's never, never gonna die.

That one down strike. Strike two for making, making me feel old. All right, so that, that is kind of, that's also a segue. And something I want to ask you about. The actual exposure time and frequency is an interesting topic because some people say that if you are getting too much use of, let's say the red light spectrum, you might create excess reactive oxygen species. There's kind of a Goldilocks zone in terms of time frequency. How do you recommend people use something like a red light panel or bed or anything or one of these devices in terms of days per week and amount of time?

Yeah. So, I mean, just for general wellness.

I think I, I almost, I almost. I. Obviously you can calculate the jewels that you're, you're, you're, you're exposed to, but there's a lot of, there's some companies that like provide handbooks to like treat different pathologies. One that's. You can't do that. That's illegal. Most of these people are not doctors. And, and they should, they're not even, they don't even have class two medical devices.

Wait, so are you saying that if like a device comes and there's like a little manual that says, use this for pain, inflammation, use this for recovery, or does it have to be that or does it have to be a disease state? Like if it says use this for cancer, use this for diabetes. Because there's obviously a difference between saying energy or like fighting cancer.

Yeah, I mean, there's even a difference between pain and energy.

Pain relief would be medical.

Yeah, I forgot about that. That's A pretty broad one, huh?

It's a broad one and I know that for a reason, because my Firewave, my first product, won Amazon's choice.

For a couple keywords and it got deactivated because I did make that claim.

Yeah. So there's a lot of people possibly playing with fire. All right, so that being said, tell me about the time and frequency.

Yeah, so I, I mean, you'd have to calculate the joules, but of energy that you're absorbing and.

Yeah, that's a little bit more complicated.

I was gonna say most people are not gonna do that. Let's. Let's go with large averages here.

Right. So like, I think for people for, for units that are producing over like 100 milliwatts per centimeter squared, I think you can do anywhere from like four for. At a. It depends. Like at a distance of. Our general recommendation is at a distance of 30 to 80 centimeters, 10 to 20 minutes, depending on essentially the depth of the target tissue and the obstructive tissue in front of it. Like, like the brain, for example, is going to be a little bit like more exposure than the. Than, than the skin, for example.

Meaning the brain could use higher amounts of red light exposure than the skin.

Yeah. And irradiance also affects penetration efficacy. He's got only like 2% or 1 to 2% of the near infrared photons are actually going to penetrate the skull, Ben. That's why I have. And a transcranial photobiomodulation is light passing through the skull to enhance brain function. Essentially.

I have one. I have a V light. You heard of them before, right?

They're actually, there they are in Toronto. And that's actually a really cool company. Like, that's a company that did some innovation. I remember I was like, this is really cool.

Are you, are you doing anything like that with your company, with the Amartech?

So here's, here's where we're going. And essentially, because I realized that I had too much epidermal hydrogen peroxide in my skin and that I could modulate that factor with a, a topical applicant and then go into a specific wavelength of light and, and literally way more effectively treat in this case, a pathology. But I'm looking at it from a cosmetics perspective. So I've made.

Cosmetics in South Korea, essentially, that synergize and amplify the, the, the effectiveness of, for example, increasing collagen, elastin, reducing hyperpigmentation. And I have coinciding products that go with each wavelengths of light. For example, our mask, our new eternal mask.

It's a multi wavelength LED face mask that floats 3 millimeters off your skin. This is a kind of like design. Like for example, there's a, there's a, there's a mask out there that they all look the same for a reason. Even the mask is because it's the best selling product on Alibaba and even all these branded companies are using it. But that sticks right on your face.

I know this because I do a clay mask once a week and I wear one of those masks and it's always stuck with clay when I pull it off. So it is tied up against the.

Face and then you have to clean it and then. So ours literally floats 3 millimeters off your face. And so say a woman had wanted to increase collagen and elastin. Well, it's almost common sense that you would apply like a hydrolyzed marine collagen topical applicant with maybe some vitamin C to enhance collagen synthesis, some other things to support collagen, elastin and the fibroblast tissues or cells. And then you, and then you would. Wait, you would apply red light and, or red and near infrared light for like increased collagen elastic. If you had a problem with hyperpigmentation. While you would use 525 nanometer green light. That's, that's also in our, in our, in our LED face mask. But you would prime the skin with something like niacinamide coenzyme Q10, which also coenzyme Q. These are both alpha albuterin. These are like bleaching agents for the skin to reduce hyperpigmentation. 525 nanometer green light also reduces, is suggested to reduce hyperpigmentation.

Wouldn't that give you like a pale face though, if you didn't have enough pigmentation?

I mean, it could. And that's what a lot of the women in Asia are doing.

Oh, yeah, good point. I've, I've heard about that. Like there, there's like a craving for a slightly lighter complexion.

Yeah. And we're seeing it in our sales worldwide. And, and, but it's, it's really funny actually. But long story short, women suffer from hyperpigmentation and it's something that really bothers them. I know this because my mom tries all my products and she loves this stuff.

Do you have that on your label? Mom tested, kid approved.

Yeah. I should. It should. I should.

Yeah, absolutely.

Okay. So you were saying the direction of your company. Is this what you're doing now? You're just doing like Face masks and topicals.

It's cosmetics. It's really cool because it's a. It's literally a sheet mask from South Korea. Like, we did it really right, Man. They're all color coded. The branding's even amazing. The branding was the hardest part for me, the scientific part. And. And the idea was. Was pretty much easy. Getting, like, getting a real cosmetics company like this branded properly like that, that was a challenge. But. But yeah. So basically it's a sheet mask. They come in boxes of 10. You open them and you. You like, separate it from the.

Oh, I've worn one of these before. It's like this sticky thing that you put on your face. Yeah, but don't you have to just like, lay on your back? Like you can't walk around.

But. But this is what. This is what my mom does. She's watching tlc. She's chilling when she gets home. They in skincare. I was kind of. I don't know if you guys know this company or just got bought by Asia. Are doing.

Oh, yeah, good point. I've heard about that. Like there. There's like a craving for a slightly different, lighter complexion.

Yeah. And we're seeing it in our sales worldwide. And. And. But it's. It's really funny, actually. But long story short, women suffer from hyperpigmentation, and it's something that really bothers them. I know this because my mom tries all my products and. And she's for $1.3 billion from Estee Lauder, but it's called Decim Cosmetics. The ordinary. The. The abnormal beauty company.

I don't feel like. I feel like I'm living under a rock. Never heard of him, bro.

It's. It was. So I had the opportunity to hang out with the founder of that company. Long story short, he said he was going to expose some people from financial crimes and at that level and never was seen again. I was the last guy to have dinner with him. But.

Yeah, super creepy dude. I was. Yeah, it's. True story. His name is Brandon Truax. Fell from his balcony. 33 Mill Street. My. My girlfriend was his real estate agent. Anyways, oopsie. Oopsies. Yeah, I'm not sure if he fell actually, but.

Yeah, I got the benefit of hanging around him. And so he kind of taught me a lot about cosmetics to the point where we were going to. She loves this stuff.

Do you have that on your label? Mom tested, kid approved.

Yeah, I should. It should. I should fly to Morocco the next day or someplace in Italy. You were just going to pick. And we're going to start a new cosmetics company because Estee Lauder had ousted him as CEO of deciem at that point, and he kind of lost his. His whole family.

Oh, so he. So he sold decim to Estee Lauder, now he's out.

Yeah, absolutely.

Okay, so you. So you were saying that now you're talking with him about a concept and then he dies.

Yeah, exactly. And to the point where, like, he was going to come pick me up.

We're going to direction of your company. Is this what you're doing now? You're just doing, like, face masks and topicals?

It's cosmetics. It's really cool because it's a. It's literally a sheet mask from South Korea. Like, we did it really right, man. Our passports, because we both didn't have them ready. And. And he just doesn't show up. But besides that, he taught me all the in the really ways to do a cosmetics problem cosmetics properly. Like, he's like, go to South Korea, you know, use this lab, blah, blah, blah. And.

Yeah, man. I mean, so the thing he also taught me about the experience and. And the routine. Like, I don't know if I should blast all my details on here, but, like, women want like a routine and an experience for cosmetics is part of the reason why I'm. I'm just talking some psychology behind the whole industry is the part of the reason why women will go to, like, buy like, expensive Estee Lauder cosmetics and mix them up in front of a mirror and apply them every night. Literally. Make like there's three components and they'll mix it up themselves and apply it because they want the experience, they want the routine, and they're all color coded. The branding's even amazing. The branding was the hardest part for me. The scientific.

Yeah, it's a ritual. It's like. Yeah, this is like when I finish a workout and sometimes I don't feel like a smoothie and I make a smoothie smoothie just because it's part of my morning ritual. Sometimes I just make it and then I'll have part.

And. And the idea was, was pretty much easy getting, like getting a real.

On my son's eggs instead. It's just there.

It's fun. And you know, here, what. What if, like, so my mom cosmetics company like this branded properly like that. That was a challenge. But. But yeah, so basically it's a sheet mask. They come in boxes of 10. You likes to watch TV. So she just puts this mask on. She can still see she can still like eat. She can still breathe. And then she'll take it off, let it, let it just sit in for like 10 minutes. And then she'll take the, take the. She doesn't even move. She just takes the LED mask, which is totally wireless, straps it on her head and use it. And there's zero light leakage. Zero. You can look at the pictures on what website? And she can, you know, she can watch, watch TV or whatever, or cook or read or whatever. But it's, it's, it's, it's a full routine and experience. And the, the, the thing on top of it that's the best is this shit. It works. I, I made sure of that. I. My. My ex girlfriend had terrible laser burn, like really bad hyperpigmentation. Her back. Yeah, we use the niacinamide. Just only this sole ingredient that we use niacinamide. And I would literally break ampoules open and just put it on and we open them and you, you like separate it from the.

Oh, I've worn one of these before for six months.

And this stuff did like minimize by like. It didn't minimize. It reduced the hyperpigmentation by like 50%. I was taking pictures.

What would happen to a, to a guy's face? Like if a guy like me where it's like this sticky thing that you put on your face.

Yeah.

Don't you have to just like lay on your back? Like, you can't walk around wear a mask like this. Am I doing it every day? And also what, what do you see? You.

Don't you see? You look like you have really healthy skin, man. I was like, damn, this guy. But this is what, this is what my mom does. She's watching tlc, she's chilling when she gets home. They in skincare. I was kind of. I don't know if you guys know this company. I just got bought by age.

Really good. My mom, My mom has really good skin in. And then I ate a pretty low inflammatory diet. I do a clay mask with the red light thing once a week.

I might get this clay mask I use.

Yeah, it works great. I do a derma rolling right before I do it. I do mostly the Olitora skin products in the morning and the evening. I wash my face really well in the morning and use a scrub like twice a week. And then the last thing. And I know this kind of sounds like not very doable for a lot of people, but I've probably had in the course of my life 4 facial stem cell protocols with Exosomes and probably another half a dozen PRP treatments on my face. So I've done a lot of, done a lot of stuff. And then I've just got the genetics from my mom of this kind of Mediterranean esque skin kissed with olive oil or whatever.

You do, you do bro. You do. I got to give it to you. Holy smokes.

Yeah. Yeah. But I mean obviously that's a lot. That's a lot of stuff with the mask. I don't really use one of those. What do you expect when you use a mask?

What do you mean? Like, like an LED face mask?

Like is it like less wrinkled?

For $1.3 billion from Estee Lauder, but it's called Decium Cosmetics. The ordinary. The.

Is it more shine. Less shine like tanning effect?

Yeah, no, it's, it's less wrinkles. It's depends which wavelength you use. Right. So like for, for, for red it would be less wrinkles. For green it would be reduced hyperpigmentation. And if you guys. If you want to look it up, just use chat GBT and say does 525 nanometer green light reduce hyperpigmentation? And take a look at the data. The abnormal beauty company.

I don't feel like. I feel like I'm living under a rock. Never heard of them, bro. It's.

It was.

So don't most masks use. Use red?

Yeah, so they, they do use red. Some use near infrared. I've noticed that some near infrared, especially if you put it really close can.

To. To the. To the skin can. Can actually cause hyperpigmentation.

I think, I think that's a potential outcome of near infrared light.

So we omitted that. But tech. Yeah. 633 and 830 were studied in those wavelengths together. So that's red and near infrared light together more. More effectively stimulate. I had the opportunity to hang out with the founder of that company. Long story short, he said he was going to expose some people from financial crimes and at that level and never was seen again. Collagen, elastin production then 6:30 alone or 8:30 alone. So I mean if you're. Yeah, but yeah. So red does fine lines and wrinkles green. 525 nanometer green specifically reduces hyperpigmentation. 580 yellow is good for like.

Even like rosacea like symptoms. Like we don't make it that claim but like any, any redness irritation, rosacea was cited and that that data is less.

Less conclusive than the green light for the hyperpigmentation. And then that Data for the green light is less conclusive by far than red for fine lines and wrinkles. But it's emerging and, and it's. I was the last guy to have dinner with him. But.

Yeah, super creepy dude. I was. Yes. True story. His name is Brandon Truex. Fell from his balcony and you know, I think, yeah, I think, I mean because of my story and I saw it literally happen to my body, I think this is, this stuff is really, really possible.

Yeah, it's interesting. What do you think about the concept of so called human photobiomodulation? Like the idea that if you have certain pigments in your bloodstream like say methylene blue or I think the black pigments from Shilajit or, or like a bluish green pigment from a Fico cyanin that when photons of light get absorbed. I think the way it is generally explained is the photo 3 Mill Street.

My, my girlfriend was his real estate agent. Anyways, oopsie, oopsies. Yeah, not sure if he fell actually, but.

It, Yeah, I got tons of.

Light from the red light spectrum. Would help to. Would use that as a catalyst, that color as a catalyst to split water, water being H2O dihydrogen oxide. So splitting two molecules of water into two dihydrogens and two oxygens and.

That would allow for generation of ATP by freeing up more electrons for the electron transport chain. If you run into that concept at all. Take methylene blue and then go into the red light.

Absolutely. I, you know, I haven't jumped down that, that pathway on the methylene blue personally. So I just. Because I went down this cosmetics thing, but I saw it taking place in the industry and I, I think there's some, there's some pretty good science behind it that would like, that would make sense, right? The benefit of hanging around him. And so he kind of taught me a lot about cosmetics to the point where we were gonna.

Yeah, well there's a lot of people now who are like taking methylene blue, waiting 30 to 90 minutes and then doing red light therapy and reporting increases in energy and you know, better, better.

Fly to Morocco the next day or some place in Italy you were just going to pick and we're gonna performance, et cetera. I would potentially combine it with coenzyme Q10 orally as well because there's three published studies that literally just say it's basically like in the title like photobiomodul regulation combined with coenzyme Q10, Q10 orally. Start a new cosmetics company. Because Estee Lauder had Ousted him as CEO of deciem at that point. And he kind of are synergistic.

Yeah.

And that makes total sense. Right.

That's a common ingredient in a supplement like a multivitamin. Ubiquinol.

Lost his. His whole family.

Oh, so he. So he sold Deciem to Estee Lauder, now he's out. Or coenzyme Q10. What you're saying is you could time that prior to red light therapy and I don't know the mechanism of action for that. It might act as a catalyst for splitting water also. But you would essentially allow for better photonic splitting of water and more electrons for the electron transport chain, subsequently more ATP by using CoQ10.

Exactly. And so you're. So that's supported orally, but I even like. Yeah, I'm suggesting you do that orally because it's supported by the literature to enhance photobiomation and work synergistically. But ubiquinone or coenzyme Q10 is actually the MO. One of the most potent hyperpigmentation reductors. So you could. We're talking about enhancing photobiomodulation through ATP.

Now you're talking with him about a concept and then he dies.

Yeah, exactly. And to the point where like, he was going to come pick me up, we're going to expedite our passports because we, we both didn't have them ready and. And he just doesn't show up. But, but we're using this as a primary ingredient in the. In the. In the face topical that reduces hyperpigmentation.

Yeah, I've seen it in some beauty products. Certainly cleaner than smearing yourself with methyl.

Besides that, he taught me all the. In the really ways to do a cosmetics problem.

Cosmic blue, head to toe.

Yeah. Not funner, though.

Yeah, yeah. So you guys are up to all sorts of interesting things over there. You got the cosmetic, you got these masks, you got the. The panels.

I got a robot too. I'm working on a robot.

What do you mean?

I dropped? I dropped. Well, it's essentially a robot that walks around your house disinfecting, disinfecting the. For like all the viral DNA. Like 254 nanometer ultraviolet C light at 2.5 milliwatts per centimeter squared kills all viral DMX properly. Like, he's like, go to South Korea, you know, use this lab, blah, blah, blah. And hey, so if you could find something that would do that and just walk around your house at night, just like, like making sure the power density of 254 is like 2.5 milliwatts per centimeter squared or higher. Then you just go around disinfecting everything.

You would have made banks during COVID I have an ultraviolet toothbrush, but robot, that's another level. I was looking the other day, they got robot massage units now at Equinox Fitness, where you can just lay there. Really? Have you gotten one?

No, but I want to. And you don't have to pay them as much.

Well, picture this. The ones at Equinox, because I looked them up, I was thinking about trying. Because you don't need to be a member to go use them. Apparently, it's like an arm on one side, an arm on the other side. Some kind of, like, rotating massage device.

Yeah, man. I mean, so the thing he also taught me about the experience and the routine. Like, I don't know if I should blast all my details on here, but.

Like, women under the body, and it just works. You kind of like a little bit more dynamic version of a massage.

I see that.

Yeah.

Yeah. Let me see this.

Yeah.

I want, like, a routine and an experience for cosmetics is part of the reason why I'm. I'm just talking some psychology.

I would imagine you could probably source something like that from Alibaba. Of course. Then you come back full circle to what we were talking about earlier.

Your 90 minute hefty electrical field exposure from your weekly massage.

That's right. I think they're probably better than humans at massaging.

Yeah.

To be honest with you, but.

Oh, I'm sure they are. Because with humans, you get something different every time.

But behind the whole industry is the re. Part of the reason why women will go to, like, buy, like, expensive.

With humans, you also get human touch oxytocin, you know, some of the electromagnetic field of another human. You know, there's things that a robot couldn't give you, too.

You gave me another idea, dude. I'll tell you.

A red light massage.

Red light massager, 100%. I'm like, what if this thing's just pumping lasers?

That's a cool idea.

On the fingers. On the fingers of Estee Lauder Cosmetics. And mix them up in front of a mirror and apply them every night. Literally make like there's three components.

As long as those diodes don't break, you get, like, a broken glass massage. Yeah, yeah. That's actually. That's an interesting idea.

Do you know. Do you know why? So talking about things that can go wrong, like, I remember. So there's, like, a lot of, like. Honestly, I get a Lot of emails. I don't look at the emails too much anymore. But I get in the customer service, there's a lot of women that. That actually bonus. And they'll mix it up themselves and apply it because they want the experience, they want the routine.

Yeah, it's a ritual. It's like, yeah, this is like when I finish a workout and sometimes want.

The red light therapy for like, vaginal health. And I looked into it. Because of the invasive nature of just these devices, they could be like, considered Class 3 medical devices. But.

But like, you know, imagine. Imagine if you had a malfunction when something's, like, inside you.

What are you gonna invent, like a suit? I don't feel like a smoothie, and I make a smoothie just because it's part of my morning ritual. Sometimes I just make it and then I'll have some super safe red light tampon or something.

No, like, I'm not gonna do that because, like, I just. First of all, I don't want to. And I just feel like it's out of my scope of work or something.

Yeah, I get what you're saying, though. Like, you literally have an electrical medical device.

It can blow up inside you. Like, I'm like, like. And these things are coming from China, like, with no qa, no FDA clearance. Like, I'm just like, what?

Yeah, yeah. Probably less safe than a vibrator, I imagine. Yeah, that's it. You're freaking out a lot of people. A lot of people are using vaginal red light freaking out right now. Chris, this is just fascinating. I mean, is there anything else you want to share with people about photobiomodulation and the. In the few minutes that we have left. It's kind of getting you excited right now.

Besides, I think I dropped a lot. Manual devices. That's the only. That's general.

My son's eggs instead. It's just there.

It's fun. And, you know, here. What. What if, like. So my mom.

Really?

That's what's on my mind these days.

Well, this, this. Okay, so you got the Ultron. This thing's kind of expensive, isn't it?

Yeah, it's expensive. I mean, the margins aren't even that good at that. It's super expensive to manufacture. Manufacturer.

But then you said the other ones were the Firehawk and the Krypton.

The Kryptons is. We have a mini Krypton. It's like right now with the discount code, it's like 600 bucks. Likes to watch TV. So she just puts this mask on, she can still see, she can still, like, eat, she can still breathe. And then she'll take it off, let it, let it just sit in for. And that's like a, that's like one of the more expensive devices on our website. It's an ultraviolet light. It'll do the trick. It's a, it's definitely a cool place to start. You can, you can.

I'm not going to make the claim that it increases vitamin D, but it has, it has the same, like 10 minutes. And then she'll take the, take the, she doesn't even move. She just takes the LED bulbs that are clinically proven to increase vitamin D. In other studies, we used to say. But I'm not making that claim on my product, but I'm just saying it does.

All right, well, if folks, go to the show notes@bengreenfieldlife.com emrpodcast I'll link out to your catalog and your website and everything. I think we do have some kind of a discount code somewhere. And yeah, if you guys have questions or comments or feedback, things I didn't ask Chris, just leave them right there in the show notes. I read all the comments again@bengreenfieldlife.com EMRpodcast.

Chris, you are one fat mask which is totally wireless. Straps it on her head and use it and there's zero light leakage. Zero.

Fascinating. Dude. Thanks for doing this.

Thank you, sir. You too. You too, man. Thank you. Thank you.

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I. I made sure of that. I. My. My ex girlfriend had terrible laser burn, like, really bad hyperpigmentation or back. Yeah, we use the niacinamide. Just only this sole ingredient that we use, niacinamide. And I would literally break ampoules open and just put it on. And we did it for six months. And this stuff did, like, minimize by, like. It didn't minimize. It reduced the hyperpigmentation by, like, 50. I was taking pictures.

What would happen to a guy's face, like, if a guy like me were to wear a mask like this? Am I doing it every day? And also, what do you see?

You look like you have really healthy skin, man. I was like, damn, this guy aged really good.

My mom has really good skin. And then I ate a pretty low inflammatory diet. I do a clay mask with the red light thing once a week.

I might get this.

I use. Yeah, it works great. I do a derma rolling right before I do it. I do mostly the Olitora skin products in the morning and the evening. I wash my face really well in the morning and use a scrub like, twice a week. And then the last thing. And I know this kind of sounds like, not very doable for a lot of people, but I've probably had, in the course of my life, four facial stem cell protocols with exosomes and probably another, like, half a dozen PRP treatments on my face. So I've done a lot of. Done a lot of stuff. And then I've got. Just got the genetics from my mom of, like, this kind of like, Mediterranean esque, you know, skin kissed with olive oil or whatever.

Yeah, you do. You do, bro. You do. I got to give it to you. Holy smokes.

Yeah. Yeah, but I mean, obviously that's a lot. That's a lot of stuff with the mask. I don't really use one of those. What do you expect when you use a mask?

What do you mean? Like, like an LED face mask?

Like, is it, like, less wrinkles? Is it more shine? Less shine? Like, tanning effect?

Yeah, no, it's. It's less wrinkles. It depends which wavelengths use, right? So, like, for. For red, it would be less wrinkles. For green, it would be Reduced hyperpigmentation. And if you guys, if you want to look it up just use ChatGPT and say does 525 nanometer green light reduce hyperpigmentation? And, and take a look at the data.

Don't most masks use, use red?

Yeah, so they, they do use red. Some use near infrared. I've noticed that some near infrared especially if you put it really close can.

To, to the, to the skin can, can actually cause hyperpigmentation.

I, I think, I think that's a potential outcome of near infrared light.

So we omitted that. But tech. Yeah. 633 and 830 were studied and those wavelengths together. So that's red and near infrared light together more, more effectively stimulate collagen elastin production than 6:30 alone or 8:30 alone. So I mean if you're. Yeah, but yeah, so red does fine lines and wrinkles. Green 525 nanometer green specifically reduces hyperpigmentation. Five eighty yellow is good for like.

Even like rosacea like symptoms. Like we don't make it that claim but like any, any redness irritation, rosacea was cited and that that data is less, less conclusive than the green light for the hyperpigmentation and then that data for the green light is less conclusive by far than red for fine lines and wrinkles. But it's emerging and it's. And you know I think, yeah, I think, I mean because of my story and I saw it literally happen to my body, I think this is, this stuff is really, really possible.

Yeah, it's interesting. What do you think about the concept of so called human photobiomodulation? Like the idea that if you have certain pigments in your bloodstream like say methylene blue or I think the black pigments from shilajit or like a bluish green pigment from a phycocyanin that when photons of light get absorbed. I think the way it is generally explained is the photons of light from the red light spectrum would use that as a catalyst, that color as a catalyst to split water. Water being H2O dihydrogen oxide. So splitting two molecules of water into two dihydrogens and two oxygens and.

That would allow for generation of ATP by freeing up more electrons for the electron transport chain. Have you run into that concept at all? Take methylene blue and then go into the red light.

Absolutely. I haven't jumped down that pathway on the methylene blue personally. So I just, because I went down this cosmetics thing but I saw it taking place in the industry. And I think there's some, there's some pretty good science behind it that would like, that would make sense, right?

Yeah. Well, there's a lot of people now who are like taking methylene blue, waiting 30 to 90 minutes and then doing red light therapy and reporting increases in energy and better, better performance, et cetera.

I would potentially combine it with coenzyme Q10 orally as well, because there's three published studies that literally just say it's basically like in the title, like photobiomodulation combined with coenzyme Q10 orally.