Growing A Forest Garden That Works WITH Nature

When you're gardening in permaculture, what we're doing is we're mimicking nature. So if you were to walk through a forest, you would see plants that are really low on the ground. Underneath that, there's even roots and then there's small plants is going to be your next layer up, and it's going to grow into larger bushes, small trees, tall trees. And we're looking at all these layers because this is how nature gardens. And we're deciding, well, what are the plants that are going to be beneficial for us in our gardens that will occupy all of these layers so we can achieve the most photosynthesis all at the same time in the garden?

So it's been a few years since I have had a repeat guest of mine on the show who's here with me today, Doug Wolkon of Kauai Pharmacy. Now, if you aren't familiar with the first two podcasts I did with Doug, I discovered him through my friend Laird Hamilton. When Laird brought me to this fabulous farm in Kauai, they were growing this vast array of superfoods and extracting and making tinctures and oils and powders and all sorts of different compounds from this tiny little, I think, two or three acre farm. And using a lot of cool tactics. And since then, I've been a huge fan of Kauai Pharmacy. I use their teas, I use their salves and their lotions and their dried cacao beans and all sorts of crazy superfoods that just show up at my house from the islands every few months or so from Doug. Now, I recently found out something very interesting. However, this is going to be very interesting for any of you who want to grow your own food, farm your own food, start a garden, maybe even take things commercial and go sell stuff at Farmer's Market. Doug wound up training a guy who lives very close to me named Brad, who's also going to be on this show. And Brad took all of Doug's concepts and did the same thing in Idaho, in North Idaho, in Sandpoint, like an hour from my house. And I thought this was so incredible. It's such an interesting take on learning in Hawaii and then reapplying in different states in different areas of the world. That I wanted to get these guys on the show to talk all things farming, gardening, permaculture, with the hopes that you can learn, if you're listening in right now, to grow food and to do it anywhere using a lot of the cool concepts that Doug and Brad implement. So, first of all, as you listen in, if you want to access the show notes, they're all going to be@BenGreenfieldLife.com New Flower. That's BenGreenfieldLife.com Newflower because that is the name of Brad's place over in Sandpoint. And again, Doug's place is Kauai Pharmacy. Doug, Brad. Thanks so much for coming on the show, guys.

Yeah, thanks for having us.

Yeah, this has been, this has been a little while in the planning figuring out how to do a three peat version of this and what we actually wanted to talk about and share with people. But where did you guys actually meet?

So Brad and I met on Kauai. I think if I remember correctly, Brad, you had been kind of looking to get into Kauai Pharmacy for a while and kind of display and show your permaculture skills. So Brad's a.

Kind of a wizard and.

Teacher and mentor in the gardens. He's been doing permaculture for many, many years. And there's a, there's, there's many. This is kind of a mecca for Kauai in the Hawaiian Islands, is a mecca for gardening and farming gurus. And Brad certainly qualifies as one. And so anyway, he finally kind of broke into our Kauai pharmacy bubble where, you know, we have four acres of medicinal plants. And he thought it was kind of an ideal place for him to take it to the next level, which he did. He spent little over two years here, maybe three plus years, kind of reimagining the place and reestablishing it with, you know, new structures, new systems, new soil building techniques, and then also training, you know, passing down his knowledge and his studies to our gardeners, which are still here today. Which is an amazing aspect of permaculture, which is kind of layering on year after year, which we're in year 12 now. So all our products and all our farming systems and techniques have all that, what we refer to as in Hawaii, Manao, which is kind of the knowledge of all the farmers that have come before and including Brad. So that's how we met Brad.

How do you define permaculture? Just in case people aren't that familiar with the term or think they know what it means.

Yeah, Permaculture is a design system that's made for.

Humans to thrive. So it's a lot of it is centered around gardening because food is just essential for us. But permaculture does kind of incorporate a bigger picture of appropriate technologies and just ways for us to create a culture that's really sustainable for us to live and thrive in.

Okay, so you came into Brad's place with a little bit of a knowledge of permaculture and learned in Hawaii, but what was it like to take that back to freaking Idaho? I live up here, obviously, I know that it's nowhere near Hawaii. Not only is the surfing not as good, but it's an entirely different climate.

Yeah, this is the third climate I've done permaculture in. I started in Florida back in the early 2000s. I had a farm there and I did a little over a decade of permaculture work on Kauai. Idaho was my first cold climate place that I've ever lived. So there's definitely a learning curve in the gardening and farming here.

But it's been quite wonderful and.

Pretty comfortable gardening. It's a little cooler weather than some of the tropical stuff. Just a new learning curve on the plants that we grow and you know, getting stuff ready in the spring. The seasonal aspect of it just add.

He's growing stuff that typically like, you know, isn't grown in, in a big way in on the mainland or in North America. So he's also had this, you know, understanding of the Hawaiian Islands and he's bringing some of that tropical vibration. And within permaculture you can, you can sort of create your own ecosystems. And that's a lot of what we're experimenting with, which is this idea of, you know, replanting, you know, the, the earth. Right. So, so that, you know, what, what has been the case historically is shifting, you know, can, can we replant, recede the earth to create, you know, new guilds, new ecosystems that, that self sustain and thrive? The idea of permaculture is, you know, less footsteps, more sustainability, more efficiency. And, and that's a key aspect to what it is that we're doing. So herbs like Tulsi, which were basically, you know, tropical India, you know, herbs that were, came from South Pacific or East, you know, East Asia. South Asia. He's now growing in, in, you know, Idaho, which is unheard of. It's unheard of. And it's a critical medicine for, for our culture to heal.

Like, are we talking about like greenhouses or what do you call why, why peonies? And by the way, the reason I ask is I know a lot of people are probably living in an area where they might want bananas and coconuts and avocados and maybe a little Tulsi, but they, they might have a little bit of guilt over the jet fuel Required to get them up to say, you know, Montana or Washington or Idaho or somewhere where those would normally be found.

Yeah, we do use greenhouses and a lot of the herbs that would be perennial in the tropics are grown annually here. So.

There are permaculture technologies for being able to grow stuff really outside of your climate zone, using the earth's natural heat, using greenhouses and all these kind of things.

So what did you start off with when you took these concepts from Hawaii up to Idaho? Where would somebody actually start? If they're looking out over their backyard right now with a half acre or an acre, or maybe they've got a little hobby farm or like me, I've got 12 acres in Idaho. Right. And I'm trying to decide some different things I want to do with it.

Well, the first thing is deciding really what it is actually that you're going to use. When you're planting something, you want to make sure it's something that you actually like. Then from there, really what we do is establish the foundation, which is the soil life. So we start tending to the soil.

Getting everything ready to create a garden that's going to thrive.

All right, let's get into details. What do you do with the soil?

So we practice natural farming and everything on our farm is closed loop. So we produce everything we use to nourish our gardens right on site. The, the biggest factor in that with the natural farming is really soil biology. So what we're doing is collecting soil life and multiplying it so that our plants can thrive.

What does that mean, collecting soil life and multiplying it?

We take cultures of indigenous microorganisms. So these are the microorganisms that naturally live in the soil in our climate. So when we propagate them, they're going to survive here. And.

It'S just a really crucial part of the ecosystem because what happens in industrial farming is it's just, you know, they're adding fertilizers. Adding fertilizers and tilling. But that's really degrading the life of the soil and the long term quality of the gardens.

Where do you find the microorganisms and how do you propagate them when you're building the soil like this?

We find them in healthy forest environments. So what we're doing is we're going all around the farm to the healthiest lush places and collecting small samples of soil and then feeding that essentially and making a slurry out of it, which gets applied to all the beds before the beds Are even planted to kind of seed them with that beneficial biology.

What do you feed them with the microorganisms to get them to grow?

Actually, I feed them potatoes, which works well for Idaho.

You sound like the guy from the book the Martian who's growing potatoes, I think, on Mars to survive. So what do you mean, you feed them potatoes? How does that work?

The starch? The starch will rapidly multiply the. The microbes they feed on that.

So if I've got soil and I'm walking around in the forest or near my house and I'm digging up little bits of soil from where it's enriched and then bringing it back to grow it, what's that actually look like? Am I shaving or cutting up potatoes and mixing that in with the soil? Or how do you do it?

You cook them and blend it up into a slurry, and then you grow it out in water. It's called jadam. Microbial solution is what I'm making.

Microbial solution. When you're going out and collecting this soil, do you need to dig pretty deep to get the highest concentration of microorganisms, or can you get it from the surface?

No, it actually comes right off the surface. And you need only a very small amount. It's the area where the leaves are breaking down into.

Soil. Essentially, that horizon right there, we call it leaf mold soil. And that. That horizon is exactly where you want to collect from. And a small handful of it will make about 55 gallons of the solution.

It's kind of. It's kind of like making a. Making a vinegar or like a kombucha. You got the mother, and that's what he's grabbing, the mother, and then he's feeding it a type of sugar, right? Which is what's in the potatoes is. Is the sugar, the starch, and that's what expands the potency of it within the slurry, as he calls it.

Okay. I make yogurt and kefir at home so I can wrap my head around this. I just gotta do it on a greater scale. So let's say I've got a raised garden bed or maybe some greenhouse or a garden in my backyard, and I'm gathering soil and I'm making this potato slurry. And by the way, for people listening in, I'll put links in the show notes to a lot of the stuff that Brad and Doug are describing. So you've got some. Some links and some helpful articles or tutorials about this. Once I've got my soil into the Garden. Do you need to do other things? Because I've heard of people planting certain, I guess their, their rhizomes or things that would improve the mycorrhizal network underneath the soil. Are you using any type of minerals to adjust the ph or anything like that?

Well, I mean, the, the microbes do really the bulk of the work. We do add.

You know, nitrogen sources, which is from our excess plant material. Essentially, if I'm say I'm growing a tomato, all the minerals and nutrients that the tomato requires are locked up in the plant itself. So all the parts of the plant that we're not using.

Get composted down and then added back into that bed to return all the nutrients back, which feeds the microbes, which feeds the plants.

And Brad, talk a little bit about nitrogen fixers, too.

Nitrogen fixers is.

Leguminous plants. So plants that are in the bean family, essentially, and what they do is they have these little nodules on their roots that work with beneficial bacteria to actually pull nitrogen out of the air and store it in the roots of these plants. So when we grow any plant in the bean family as it grows, what it's doing is it's pulling this nitrogen out of the air, storing it in the root. Now, when you cut a branch off a plant, it's also killing back a root zone. So every time we prune the bean plants, what we're doing is releasing nitrogen into the soil. So that's another source of essentially free.

Fertilizer for the nitrogen fixation. Does that mean that you would have to have bean plants in each area where you're growing other plants?

Yes. Yeah. They would be companion planted together.

Like on our farm, we have canopies, and that's pigeon pea. And Brad, when he was here, established a lot of canopy pigeon pea plants, which is also a huge plant in Southeast Asia that they grow for to make like mung dal and other bean dishes and then perennial peanut on the ground cover. So we're looking to layer within permaculture, looking to, you know, really make it as most efficient as possible in the layers. So your ground covers, all your shrubs, you know, knee high shrubs, ankle high shrubs, hip high shrubs, chest high shrubs, you know, trees. And then as you get into the canopies and the, and the over story, all of those are going to tell us to tell a strategic, you know, permaculture story. And there's nitrogen fixtures in there, and then there's other plants we're harvesting, you know, and taking minerals out. And then there's other Stuff that's, you know, going to be basically feeding the soil and that balances is critical.

Now this is something that's a little unclear to me. Can one of you guys explain and differentiate between the ground cover, the shrub and the canopy?

Okay, so essentially when you're gardening in permaculture, what we're doing is we're mimicking nature. So if you were to walk through a forest, you would see plants that are really low on the ground, underneath that there's even roots, then there's small plants, is going to be your next layer up and it's going to grow into larger bushes, small trees, tall trees. And we're looking at all these layers because this is how nature gardens and we're deciding, well, what are the plants that are going to be beneficial for us in our gardens that will occupy all of these layers? So, so we can achieve the most photosynthesis all at the same time in the garden.

So let's say I want to grow, I'm going to think of something I really like. Okay, let's say strawberries. What would be an example of how I would use this strategy of ground cover, shrub and canopy for a strawberry section of my garden?

Right. So the strawberry would be your ground cover. It's a really low growing plant. And essentially if you had, say you had a fruit tree, instead of just having a fruit tree in the middle of a grass lawn or something like that, you would have that fruit tree, but maybe under it there would be some blueberry bushes. And down below that on the ground is where you might find the strawberry.

And remember, I would just add like a strawberry might like a cool canopy in the hot summertime, you know, so that's another aspect of, of why a canopy is critical. But then maybe towards the end of the summer, you know, when the cool weather's coming in and you want to let the sun in, you want to cut the canopy down and bring that extra sunlight in and maybe garner a few extra strawberries towards, towards the end of summer, early fall harvest. And, you know, you're stretching that season out. And I would just add like here as it relates to canopies and ground covers, you know, this is a place where you can grow almost anything on Kauai, you know, but the critical nature of those, you know, placements of ground covers, canopies and shrubs is to not, is to hold space, to not let the weeds in. Because the weeds, you know, that's why the challenge here is to keep the weeds out. So every single layer of, you know, Specifically soil. Right. Which is fertilizer. I mean, our soil is fertilizer. We've been at this for 12 years. Our farm has become one big nursery. It's incredible what's happening. I mean, there's cacao trees popping up everywhere, there's loquat trees popping up. I can't even. Anyone that has seeds in their mouth, I'm like, be careful where you spit that because it just pops. So whatever is growing right now, it's got to be hyper intentional. When you look at the way we address our homes and we address the interior design of our bedrooms and of our bathrooms and of our showers, this is how we reflect the way, you know, our gardens. This is how we reflect our growing process, which is hyper intentional. And every plant, every square foot, the efficiency and the sunlight and the water has to be looked at from a, from a level of consciousness and focus and intuition and intention that is the same that goes into, you know, a five star luxury bathroom.

So besides the nitrogen fixation plants like the beans and the microbiome enriched soil, do you need to use anything else as a fertilizer?

Yeah, we use liquid fertilizers, which is basically the crop residue.

That'S composted down and made into a fertilizer.

What's crop residue?

It's the rest of the tomato vine after you've harvested the tomato.

So if I have like a big composting bin next to my garden, I could take that leftover crop residue like the vines and the branches and leaves and whatnot, compost that down and then reapply that as a fertilizer after I grind it up or mulch it or something like that.

Yeah, there's a bunch of ways to do it, but that would certainly work.

I'll just add a couple other systems. We collect the grass on the farm, so when we mow the grass, we collect it all and we feed that to our worms. So we have a worm composting system and that's kind of a traditional system that the spin on it is that, you know, if anything, most farms grow a lot of grass. That's just the way it is. So collecting that grass as nitrogen, it's, that's the number one nitrogen grower, you know, in, on the mainland probably is grass and you know, that's accessible, that we mow and, and before it dies down, you feed it to the worms and they create the compost through that process. So that's one. And then the other huge.

Fertilizer that we use at the moment is coconut Husks. So we have a coconut collecting program where they drop coconut husks on the farm. And then we have a big grinder, it's called a flail mower. And we'll flail every week or two and create these epic. I know, coconut husk core at core for both our nursery. So when we're planting nursery plants, that's what goes into our soil for nursery starts, but also is a base for our entire garden and really takes the fertility way up.

How many worms are we talking? Where do you keep them?

Well, at this point, if you. If you talk about like, so we have bins. The bins are, you know.

12 by 4, if you will, and you could have, you know, 10, 20. I've seen, you know, massive farms of 250 acres that have massive bin operations. Ours are. Aren't that big. Why? Because it's in the soil. You know, when you. When you do something with perennial peanut and then you also have, you know, basically what we do is we take the compost from the worms. This. This golden, you know, compost that comes out of the worms poop, basically, and. And we make a tea out of it, and then we aerate the tea and then we hand feed it back to the plants. And so that compost tea, which is a fresher, you know, operation, a fresher system than the jadam, but they're both incredible ways to go. The jadam has a sustainability and potency that's. That's unique in and of itself. But this compost tea that we create, you know, inevitably the worms find themselves underneath the perennial peanut, underneath the pigeon pea, underneath these nitrogen fixtures, and it's in. So the worms. When you say, where do we keep them? We're cultivating the worms in the soil. So if you stuck a shovel anywhere in our four acres, you would see massive worms everywhere. So that's where we're at 12 years later. It's the. It's the exponential layering of the fertilization that really takes. I mean, that's what permaculture is about, right? Is, you know, one step back, two steps forwards. And it's just constantly. It's the opposite of two steps back, one step forward. It's constantly just getting inches. You're creating inches for yourself every year. And then before you know it, you know, you have exponential efficiencies in production.

What do you do in terms of pesticides or pest control?

So one thing is that the microbes, all the microbes we're cultivating really give the plants a Resilience that makes the plant diseases and pest issues a lot less than they would otherwise be just through the soil health alone. But we can actually make essentially like tea out of certain plants that are really unattractive to the pests. So if I were to run into an issue with something like, say, aphids or something like that really common agricultural pest, I can make an herbal tea out of certain plants that's totally organic, something that's even safe for me to consume, and then apply that to the plant to deal with the bugs on a small scale.

Would that literally just be like a spray bottle or something like that with the tea?

Yeah, it's a very strong tea, but yes.

Ben, I'll just add that everyone should be clear here. What Brad and, you know, what new flower grows and what Kauai pharmacy grows particularly is herbal medicine plants. And so this form of permaculture gardening lends itself to these herbal medicine plants as a foundation, growing food as medicine. Things like, you know, tomatoes and cucumbers can certainly happen within this foundation. But the foundation which is us growing antifungal, antibacterial, antiseptic plants that, you know, tea tree, tulsi.

Lemongrass, these are all plants that, the, the aphids, the, the pests, they don't like these plants. So that's, that's what we're growing here. Our gardens are an immune. They are an immune system unto themselves. So the foundation of that as your permaculture basis, whether it's on your perimeters or it's within a circle, some kind of level of herbal medicine foundation, is kind of what we found to be, economically speaking, financially speaking, lifestyle speaking as it relates to farming, to be an answer for the future, an answer for, for the sustainability of small boutique farming and, and sustainability. And, and again, to address the pesticide issue. It's incredible. If the pests come in, they're like, oh, they bump into the cinnamon. You know, on our farm, you know, a lot of tropical warming spices. So they bump into the cinnamon, they bump into the clove, they hit the lemongrass, and they out of here. You know, they want nothing to do with this place. And that same immune system gets translated into the medicine, right? So we're using it not only as an anti pest, but then we're using it to build your own immune system within the teas, superfoods, salves, all the medicine that we make, you know, it's, you know, the, the alignment or the vertical integration of the system speaks to itself.

I'm actually really Glad you made that clarification about the style of what you guys are growing, because this is different. Right. And I think it's. Even though you can, of course, use certain strategies to increase yield, growing strawberries or cucumbers or tomatoes or what have you is not rocket science for a lot of people. But medicines and herbals and pharmaceuticals are expensive. And this is really interesting because this can be done at home using some of the strategies you guys are sharing.

The water piece is interesting to me. You know, my dad's in the water filtration industry. He's constantly talking about how the type of water filter used by a farm seems to affect crop or livestock quality and growth. As far as you guys go, do you give any special considerations to water, either the conservation of it, the cleanliness of it, or anything else regarding water?

Yeah, water on farms is a huge factor, obviously, and in my experience through permaculture, and one of the reasons I'm so attracted to permaculture is that I've just seen over and over people running into issues with their farms and also just with landscapes in general. In residential settings of too much water or not enough water erosion, there's just always these issues. And what permaculture really does is it takes us beyond that whole, like, all right, what are you just growing and how into, like, let's really look at this landscape and use the water to our advantage. So when we start, we're often creating systems like swales and things where we can hold water in place, move it through the farm in a healthy way, and prevent any water issues like flooding that could happen in our gardens, all these kind of things. Dealing with the water is paramount to successful gardening. Yeah.

Is water filtration a consideration at all?

You know, both of our farms have just absolutely amazing water gushing out of the ground from our wells. And if you were living in a place where you're using city water that's heavily chlorinated or something like that. Yeah, you would definitely want to make sure it was filtered.

But we have really nice water on both of our farms.

Well, any sprinkler system coming from municipalities, you would want filtration. I mean, that's. You know, we. We have enough rain. We're in the wettest place on Earth. And what Brad saying is, in the summertime, you know, what he has from the wells and the natural water is ideal. But if you're. If you're using municipal water, then no question, water filtration is critical.

Yeah, you guys would love it. I got this Giant pond at the very tippy top of this property that I'm going to start growing on in Idaho. So I've got this massive natural body of water and I'm working on cleaning it up and putting an aerator in there. But it's just incredible to have that giant source that'll be paired with the rainwater catchment system on the roof of the home that we're building. So we're definitely focusing on water. And then with soil, I spread a bunch of hay and worm castings and molasses a few months ago to just start to build up the soil a little bit. So I'm on board with some of the things you guys are talking about, especially regarding the, the microbiome and kind of starting with the soil and good water. So let's say somebody is listening in and they've got a section of their garden and they want to kind of take your guys approach, which as you established a few minutes ago, Doug, is pretty medicine and herbal specific. Where would somebody start as far as plant selection and diversification? If they've got their soil and they've got their water and they understand some of these concepts of, of the, the covers and the shrubs and the, the canopies, what would you recommend? Like, how would you walk someone through just the average person with a little section in the backyard they could devote to an herbal growth?

I like where Brad started, you know, and he said, figure out what you want to use.

I, it's just incredible how many people have gardens and don't use them. You know, they're, they're kind of like, oh, we're, look at that mint. And then they, they stand off and look at it and everyone looks at it and then they go back inside. So the, the deal is you got to, you got to put, grab the mint and put it in the hot water like they do in Morocco. Breakfast, lunch and dinner. You know, that's, that's what people need to start doing is, is immersing themselves. The reason why plant medicine is such a great starting point, Ben, which is kind of what the question I'm answering the question here is. It's so simple, easy and efficient to grow mint, to grow sage, to grow rosemary. And these are herbs that have been, you know, since the Greek and Roman times, the most powerful, you know, medicines on the planet. And we kind of take them for granted now. But these Mediterranean superpowers, for, for all purposes, all we really have to do is, is get out into the garden and start utilizing them and not be afraid of Them and, and be a little bit, I don't want to use the word aggressive, but just a little more intentional. So again, hot water.

Mint, sage pick. Picking lemon balm is ideal. I mean I look mint and lemon balm to me, both in the mint family. Like those are the two quintessential.

Herbal medicines that you can make tea out of. And it's critical from my experience, you know, and this is when we started this process 15 years ago. I was looking at a lot of the farms on Kauai and in Hawaii and seeing a lot of people kind of labor over their, their farms. And it felt to me like a, an energy out, like just consistent energy out. And what's really critical in my experience is reciprocation. So as soon as you get your garden going, how does it reciprocate? How do you, how does it feed you? Right. In Hawaii they call it malama ina, which is, you know, kind of we care for the land as it cares for us. And you don't want to be like three years in before you, you know, munch on your first carrot. That doesn't work. So the idea of. And Brad would have a, you know, a beautiful list, I'm sure of plants in Idaho that, you know, within three months, four months, six months time, you're getting reciprocation, you're getting love, you're getting fed, you're getting nourishment from your garden. And it's so important for that to happen. So in that way you get that energy and then you can feed it back into the garden and create that, that system and that loop. And that's where the sustainability and that's where the practicality and the rationality comes in. So Brad, maybe you could kind of come in with kind of a list of starting plants that work well in that Pacific Northwest region.

Yeah, I mean there's all sorts of herbs we can grow here annually that just thrive in our climate. I've been so impressed by our gardens every year, how fast they grow because I mean in the summer here it's light really early in the morning and it's light after 10 o' clock at night. So we just get these expansive period of summer growth.

Where all these herbs are going to thrive. And I think, yeah, it really comes back down to what is it that you want? Because if that herbs not going to make it into your cup, then why are you growing it? You know, so, so it's on a person to person basis. Whenever I consult with people, the first thing I ask them is hey, what is it that you like to eat? You know, what is it that you like to drink? Let's start there and then we're going to be able to grow what you want.

Yeah. I'm sure some people have come back to you asking for the best growth for beer and pizza. But besides the wheat and the cheese crops, in a scenario like that, what would you start with in terms of some of your favorites?

Well, the things that I grow a lot of here, I grow a lot of Tulsi. Tulsi is just an absolutely exceptional herb. It's been used in India for thousands of years as this rejuvenative tonic.

It's really good for just relaxing the nervous system, helping the body adapt to stress that you might come into. And it just tastes absolutely delicious.

I know. It is fat, by the way. Three times a week, I make a giant French press with the herbs that Doug sends up to me from the pharmacy. And a lot of the tea blends that you guys have, Doug, they have tulcea in them. And so I get hit with Tulsi about around three times a week or so when I'm at home, sometimes more than that because I often have leftover in the French press. But you're right, it's an incredible herb.

Yeah, it's referred to as the elixir of life. And it was the first plant that we put in the ground here on the farm.

It's actually now almost created its own. It's seeding everywhere. So we actually had to cut it all, a lot of it back recently. But certainly seeds is another know thing that.

Getting seed for Tulsi, that's something we could talk about as well. And, and us supplying seed, it's. It's something that we want to do in the future.

So what do you mean, what do you mean by that?

Well, Tulsi seed. So, you know, where do you get your seeds from? You know, and, and having like farms like Brad and ours be a nursery for these, these farms to get going. Because in the end, you know, the cuttings, the starts and the nursery work, that's going to be the engine that makes this movement go. You know how right now what we, if you go to a nursery, these herbal medicine plants like Tulsi, they're not nearly as prolific in the nursery settings that we are used to. Right. I mean, you probably can't find Tulsi there. So what do you do? You go to ACE Hardware to get it. It's not ideal to get your, to get your seeds from. From Ace Hardware.

Now is that because of the, the germination rate is higher on the seeds that you're producing or something else?

I think, you know, for the most part, herbal medicine just, it's kind of a lost art in the West. You know, it. It's kind of a witchcraft, you know, mentality. And, you know, for thousands and thousands of years, this is, you know, we, we grew our, you know, humans grew their own herbal medicine, and that's where we got our medicine from. And even to this day, if you look at, you know, where our pharmaceuticals come from, they come from plants. You know, the majority of the plant medicine in the hospitals is opium derived. So they're, they're plant derived. So the idea of us taking responsibility for the herbal medicine and the plant medicine that we experience, I mean, getting it from your, you know, locally, or getting it from a reliable source with transparency, I mean, there's nothing you can, you know, your sandwiches and your lunches and your dinners, that's one thing. But when you get into your medicine and you don't have transparency in your medicine, you know, people talk about farm to table, you know, meat and farm to table, you know, vegetables you touch in medicine. That's not, that's not transparent. That is sketchy stuff.

Yeah, yeah, I hear you. So, so Tulsi is one. What else, Brad, what else do you like?

I absolutely love ashwagandha. We do really well with it. It's just this every. Everything we're growing is really all about how are we going to. How are we going to feel better, how are we going to feel more energy naturally without needing to use a bunch of caffeine? How do we build up our system in a way where we're resilient, we're vital, we're strong. And the ashwagandha root definitely is one that makes me feel that it gives me. It's an interesting plant because when you people a lot of times will take it like in the evening to relax, but what's happening is because it's relaxing the system, it's giving your body more resilience to feel strong and vital because you're not in that, like, fight or flight mode anymore.

So the ashwagandha is just absolutely incredible.

So the ashwagandha, the calm energy, right? So it takes, you know, for us, we go over winter, so it takes us nine months to grow ashwagandha root as we harvest the entire plant known as the ginseng of ayurvedic medicine, known to, you know, really boost libido. So that that lowest region of the body is getting a lot, you know, the sacral region, getting lots of nourishment and nutrition through the ashwagandha root. And as Brad described, a calm energy. So that juxtaposition, right, people think of energy as a jolt, but we're really looking for is longevity, stamina, perseverance. Right. We're looking for that idea of calm energy, that juxtaposition of what is true energy. When we give our ashwagandha out, which is, you know, it's pure libido. And, and when we give that to people that are weak, that have weak libidos in inevitably what happens is they, you know, they're like, oh, you're ashwagandha made us lie down. You know what happened? I'm, I'm horizontal. I'm just going to sleep. Well, if you're on a, you know, you're drinking three cups of coffee a day for the last 20 years, what's the ashwagandha going to do? It? Libido doesn't fall from the sky. Right. You need to earn that libido. Right. You got to earn it. So it puts you to bed, Right. It might put you to bed for three months and then all of a sudden you come out with some libido. But this is medicine. This is medicine that it's a practice. Right. So it's teaching you the truth of your lifestyle and then walking you through the practice. Sometimes that's hard to stomach, it's hard to digest. But herbs like ashwagandha, they're teachers. So they're teachers in the lifestyle that they provide for you.

Yeah, that's kind of how a so called adaptogen, and I believe these fall into that category kind of works, turns the volume up or turns the volume down on the nervous system, depending on what state that your body needs to be in. And I actually have the new flower ashwagandha up by my bedside. And also that cacao ash, I think it's a cacao ashwagandha topical that you sent up to me, Doug. So I'm a huge fan of it. Not only that, but when you look at consumption of coffee, nootropics, smart drugs, energy drinks, central nervous system stimulants, a lot of these adaptogens are really handy to have on hand if you're using something like that and feeling jittery or if you want to take some of the edge off. Like you guys might know about this one company, four sigmatic coffee, and they have an adaptogenic coffee Blend. That's really nice because I think it has tulsi, astragalus, I believe, rhodiola, some reishi. But being able to kind of expertly combine some of these adaptogens with your energy supplements of choice can be a pretty good strategy.

Yeah, I mean, it's all about that adaptogenic concept, you know, and Tulsi is kind of the, that's the daily adaptogenic. And ashwagandha is kind of more radical where the Tulsi's, you know, that can be fed to infants and elders alike. And the Ashwagandha is kind of more of a advanced root, you know, really powerful herb. But the awareness aspect of these adaptogens that you speak of, that's really what they're providing. Right. So, you know, your ability to appreciate, you know, when you're tired, you know, what's, what's the awareness that go, that you go through? Is it, is it, oh, I'm going to go grab a cup of coffee or is it, I'm going to take a nap. I mean, which, what's, and what serves you best? And that awareness and that consciousness, that space, deep breath, you know, clear mind, strong spine in that moment, you know, are you going to go into that place or are you going to go grab a coffee and kind of stick into a more compulsive nature? And the Tulsi with the, you know, as well as the, the ashwagandha, they're both going to bring you into that awareness, conscious space of serving your highest self.

One thing that I am thinking about right now as you guys describe this stuff, is people can walk away from this podcast, for example, with some idea of where to start. But do you have favorite books or resources or trainings that you've relied upon or even, I don't know if you guys have produced anything yourself, like a video library or anything like that that people could access to just get YouTube Premium, download a few videos and go out to the garden or read up on a book, or you're lying in bed at night with your astragalus tincture.

What are resources that you guys like for this kind of stuff?

Well, I think we're both in spaces collectively to help share the knowledge. And our websites have tons of information. So new flower website as well as Kauai pharmacy website, so that's a great place to start. We have a huge YouTube channel as well that also shows a lot of the growing techniques and, and what, what, I guess what Brad's just kind of mentioning in the, in the Use in the, using, using of the herbs is there's so much information in the plants. So for me, you know, I actually rented a place down the road from the farm that I founded here and I was using, just utilizing my, my landlord's garden and there was so much information, so much profound knowledge in those plants that it literally, as well as the ginsengs I was taking prior to that, that it literally threw me on course, put me on course to drive myself in this direction.

What do you mean? Like by consumption of them, you began to generate new ideas and learn better?

Yeah, I mean that, that original garden, that. And it's hard to fathom the, the potency of these plant medicines. And I, I think it's, you know, for the consciousness of, of the planet. You know, what's, what's going to wake us up, what's going to move, move the needle? Well, the plant, the plant consciousness is just so profound. There's no denying it. You know, when you connect yourself to the earth at this level and this frequency. So I was, I was drinking a big herbal tea of Tulsi lemon balm, mint and sage. It was a random tea, it was a random alchemy, but that's what came to me. And I threw it in a big bottle of. It's a, it was a gallon bottle and I drank it every day. I, I brewed it and then put it in a. Literally a gallon. I drank a gallon of tea every day. And within six months I bought the farm. I bought the farm, like here, here I am 12 years later.

Part of me wonders if this is like some kind of an ancient plant, human symbiotic relationship in which obviously if plants are somehow able to use humans for genetic proposition or to be able to grow elsewhere or survive, then it would behoove the plant to have some type of relationship with even the human consciousness or psyche to be able to send subtle signals that allow the human to engage in activities that would allow that plant species to survive. It's very interesting to think about.

The thing about these farms is we're cultivating something that's absolutely ancient. Just like you're saying we've had these connections with these plants for thousands of years and our modern lifestyle kind of has shifted us out of that a bit. But places like New Flower and Kauai Pharmacy, people are coming together, they're connecting with the plants in a way that when I watch it, I mean, it's just so beautiful. If I'm in the garden and I see the way all the herbs we grow are hand picked and we'll sit around and the people are plucking the herbs and processing everything. And I just know this is ancient and it's beautiful because where else are you going to get that kind of quality of when you're looking at people like us and we're putting so much love and intention into our soil, we're growing these plants naturally and they're just full of vital energy and force. And then they're plucked by. By people who love what they're doing. And it just creates this whole cycle of something really special.

Yeah, that's beautiful, man. I think a lot of people may not have experienced what Doug experienced when you drank a gallon of the Tulsi astragalus mint and whatnot. I certainly have been drinking the teas quite a bit, but not doing a lot of gardening. I may have to pair the two based on this, Doug. But the thing is, as far as people experiencing this type of stuff. And Doug, I'm going to apologize in advance because you and I have two previous podcasts which I'll link to in the show notes. If folks go to BenGreenfieldLife.com Newflower where you've been able to share some of the products you're most proud of producing and some of the different ways that people like to use them. Brad, as far as you go, what are some things that you're producing at New Flower that you're proudest of that you think people should actually get a chance to try?

Well, you know, one of the really amazing things that we're offering that I'm just so excited to be able to give to people is an herbal csa. So a lot of this stuff comes down to, you know, when people are listening, this might be new to you, and how do I know what to take? And, well, we're taking it a step further and we're helping people figure that out. So we've created a CSA program where every month we're putting together packages of highly nourishing herbs. And we do skin care, natural skin care stuff can be added into the package if you want.

We where you can get a consistent supply of really super fresh, amazing herbal products just delivered right to your door. And the way we choose what goes into the CSA is by looking at the season we're in. So if it's the middle of winter, we're gonna choose herbs that are gonna be a little more warming. If it's the middle of summer, we're gonna choose herbs that are gonna be more cooling. And what we're helping people do is actually balance their body through the changing seasons using these herbal remedies all year.

So does that mean, like the lotion that I might apply to my face is going to have different herbal ingredients in it in the summer than it might be in the winter?

Yeah. The CSA packages are always changing. We offer through it certain things that are not going to be available otherwise on our website because we're really trying to custom build a special experience for our CSA community specifically.

And this Tulsi, stragalus, some of these compounds. I briefly alluded to this early on in the podcast, but do you actually have to have a greenhouse or something like that to grow these?

I start my tulsi in a greenhouse in the spring. We start seeds now and I'll get my first flush in the spring. But then I'll also have field production so I grow most of it outdoors.

Okay, what would be an example if somebody didn't want to take the full bite of doing the csa? As far as a few products you'd recommend they get started with.

If you're interested in herbal tea. I mean, all of the teas are absolutely delicious with the extracts. We do tinctures. I have a men's vitality blend that I just absolutely love.

It's amazing. I do spagyric extracts which are stronger than tinctures. They're concentrated if you want something really, really potent.

Is that like the nettles one that you sent to me?

Well, they need to be diluted, but they're amazing because you can take a very small amount of it and get maybe even a better result than taking a whole bunch of a tincture.

Okay. Yeah. And you said. What was the name of that splinkic?

Spagyric.

Spagyric. Okay. So that's like a tincture, but stronger.

It's a concentrate that's extremely rich in bioavailable minerals. So it's going to nourish your body in a deeper way than most other herbal preparations.

And I got to give you a quick chance, Doug. When Laird took me over to your farm, one of the highlights for me was when you guys chopped open that big old cacao pod. And we were just eating the cacao beans raw out of the fruit. And then later on, you sent me a dried bag up to the house. It's almost like cacao nibs, but on steroids. They're huge, like horse sized capsules of cacao cow. Are you still producing those?

We are. And those are seeds for. For trees. Right. So you could Actually, you know those, those whole beans are, are full trees. So you can imagine the, the potency of, of that nib, if you will. Whole nib. And you know, the magnesium, the manganese. Yeah, there's just powerhouse. It's, it's, it's a, I mean the cacao, it's the full spectrum superfood. It's got fat, protein and carbohydrate. All three. Fat, protein and carbohydrate.

So, Brad, if I invite you over to my farm in Idaho, would you easily be able to teach me how to grow cacao? Do you think that's possible?

It depends on how much you want to invest in greenhouses.

Oh yeah, you gotta have a pretty big greenhouse, huh?

Yeah, we might work on some more.

Climate appropriate plants if we do something down there in ida.

Yeah, somebody needs to genetically hybrid a cacao tree. Brad, do you have a family that's doing this with you? Is it just you? What's the amount of labor that's required for something like this?

Yeah, it's me and my wife.

And we do have people come and help us, but it's a never ending labor of love. We put our all into it.

We wake up and this is what we do. We farm, we make medicine. We're just fully invested. We're always learning more and studying and taking it to the next level.

Full time.

Both your guys, places are open for visitors, right? Like if somebody listens in and they're passing through Kauai or through Sandpoint, they can come stop by.

Doug does tours. We haven't set up any system like that yet, but it's possible.

Yeah, we're open, we're open 10 to 3. We have a retail shop. But it's incredible what people expect out of farms. You know, Saturday morning farmers market, after working five days a week or six days a week, you got to show up at the farmer's market with, you know, put your own tent up. So I mean, part of what Brad and I also have been collaborating on is, is replicating the system, you know, because what Brad's proven is, you know, just in the three years time or so. How long you been at it?

BRAD ON Idaho this is year four.

Year four. So, you know, he's, he's proven in four years kind of the sustainability of this platform and, and it's a, it has endless, you know, potential. He's just getting started. I mean, you talk about a farm kind of landing on its feet within three, four years. It's just unbelievable to think that and why it's because the added value nature of, you know, what, where we're meeting. The marketplace. The marketplace, you know, it's one thing to have raw food and, and raw vegetables and fruits, and that's incredible. But the preservation model, you know, what we're doing, you know, in the added value space is we're preserving this medicine and, and making it liquid, making, making a currency out of it. And as a result, you know, it has more sustainability, in my opinion.

It, it's taking a square foot of land and it's the efficiency that you can cultivate out of that square foot and then secure it in a preserved way, you know, and then obviously it's also not hoardable too. You, you know, you want to eat it and consume it fresh. And that was, you know, one aspect of what makes our farm so special and what makes this medicine so special is the freshness of it. When you drink, Brad, or, you know, new flowers tea or Kauai pharmacies tea, it could be a week out of the garden. The tea that you receive, you know, from Sri Lanka or Thailand. And although I love those places and I'm extremely grateful for whatever tea they produce, it's somewhat old and stale and in many cases it's got chemicals on it. So the freshness is also key. So we fresh and then it's preserved. And that preservation quality is a lot of what we're doing. So added value. We have honeys, we have tinctures, salves, hydrosols, superfoods. All of those modalities are different preservation.

Preservation modalities in which you can consume the medicine.

Yeah, well, your turmeric honey and cacao honey, by the way, is also fantastic. And there's a lot that we covered here. But I'm going to put a link in the show notes to both of the farms, should anybody listening in want to check them out. I've got discount codes for both of the farms and their products, should you want to try any of those out. And the show notes are going to be@BenGreenfieldLife.com Newflower Brad, I know we've talked about this, but as soon as the weather kind of shapes up here, I'm planning on coming out to New Flower, so hopefully I'll share with people some cool videos on Instagram so they can see a little bit of behind the scenes what goes on there. So I'll be hooking up with you over there. I know, sooner rather than later. And I hope this has been helpful for any of you listening in who want to get started in growing some medicines and herbs and at least have an idea of where to start and a couple of folks who have done it successfully in different climates. So, Brad, Doug, thank you so much, guys. It's been fantastic.

Thanks, Ben.

Yeah, thank you so much, Ben. I appreciate the support.

Yeah. Well, I love what you've done with Brad and New Flower. So it's incredible. You guys. Products are incredible. Check out the CSA if you're listening in. I think that's a great idea to get a package from these guys. And again, it's BenGreenfieldLife.com Newflower for the show Notes. Until next time, I'm Ben along with Brad from New Flour and Doug from Kauai Pharmacy. Signing up from BenGreenfieldLife.com have an amazing week. Do you want free access to comprehensive Show Notes, my weekly roundup newsletter, cutting edge research and articles, top recommendations from me for everything that you need to hack your life and a whole lot more? Check out BenGreenfieldLife.com it's all there. BenGreenfieldLife.com See you over there. Most of you who listen don't subscribe, like or rate this show. If you're one of those people who do, then huge thank you. But here's why it's important to subscribe like and or rate this show. If you do that, that means we get more eyeballs, we get higher rankings, and the bigger the Ben Greenfield Life show gets, the bigger and better the guests get and the better the content I'm able to deliver to you. So hit subscribe, leave a ranking, leave a review. If you got a little extra time, I mean, means way more than you might think. Thank you so much.