Dr Jill Carnahan interviews Dr Jennifer Kessmann on Breast Implant Illness

Hello everyone, we are live and it is great to have you join us this afternoon. I am so excited about today, and if any of you follow me on Instagram, or if you don't, please jump on over there, Dr. Jill Carnahan on Instagram. I had promoted this one in particular because I know that there's a lot of women out there that need to hear this message. And Dr. Jennifer Kessmann and I are so excited to be here to talk to you. I'm going to formally introduce her in just a minute or two. And just a little housekeeping to begin with. If you like these podcasts and shows, you can go to my website, jillcarnahan.com, for more free information, free blogs, recipes, all kinds of stuff. You can always visit the retail store, drjillhealth.com, for products and things if we ever mention today. We probably won't be talking a lot about products. And then the last thing is we have a— I have a a free YouTube channel with lots of content with other physicians. And this will also be live there in a few days. So if you've missed any of the other talks, you can jump on the YouTube channel and watch all of those. They're all free, some great content. And I expect today will be no different. Today I have Dr. Jennifer Kessmann who reached out to me and mentioned this topic. And I was so excited because I have seen patients in clinical practice with breast implant-related illness and toxicity. And it's a topic that, like any environmental toxicity, we don't hear a lot about, but I want to just bring awareness to that today because some people have these mysterious symptoms and issues and they don't know what it is, and it's actually something in their own body that's affecting their health. And as both Dr. Kessmann and I believe, these things are multifactorial, so it's not always like there's one thing, but this can be a really big deal. And I've had at least a dozen patients that have had this illness and have recovered after they removed— they explanted those. So, uh, I am so excited to hear from Dr. Kessmann. She's actually prepared some slides, so I think today will be one of the best, like super educational, science-based. I want to introduce her, so let me just tell you a little bit about Dr. Kessmann. And we were just talking when we first got on, you know, I said, I know we've met before, do you remember when it was? And we thought it was around 2015 at a functional medicine conference. I think we sat by one another and just love her energy, love what she's bringing. So let me introduce her. She's a certified functional medicine physician like I am, and she's passionate about finding solutions to health concerns and bringing us all back to optimal health. She graduated magna cum laude from Texas A&M University while studying scientific nutrition. She's currently practicing functional medicine focused on finding root cause to improve health. With over 20 years of experience in traditional medicine as an MD, she began to recognize patterns quickly and find answers to one's health conditions. She's also passionate about the lifestyle and its impact on disease. She is just a wealth of knowledge. So thank you so much, Dr. Kessmann, for joining me today.

Wow, thank you for that great introduction, Jill. And I am so excited to be here. And I have followed you for so many years. And you have just been such an icon for me. And, you know, someone that I really cherish your knowledge and your ability to— the way that you share things is just so beneficial to the whole medical space, functional medicine space, integrative medicine space. So thank you for that. And I hope that, yeah, the women that need to be here are here.

Oh, I'm sure they are. And we'll share it with those who aren't. And thank you for that beautiful, kind introduction. You know, it's funny because I love putting out the content and been doing that for a long time in this space. And it still surprises me and touches me deeply when my colleagues who I respect and we're doing the same thing, we're on the front lines, and you tell me that it's mattered in your life. It touches me deeply. So it gives me the excitement to keep going and keep putting out content. And that means a lot, Jennifer. So thank you very, very much.

Absolutely amazing. Absolutely can't say more about that. Um, uh, I'm gonna go ahead and share my screen.

And— Yeah, and before you do, let's jump in just for a second here. I would love to, um, talk about your story because that's like—

Well, you want me to stop the share then, or—

Sure, just for a second, because I think people want to see you and just like how you got into functional medicine, how you got interested Oh, sure. And then we'll jump right in.

Well, you know, my background was nutrition. And I think that's been a lifelong passion. And then I also had this passion for the environment and supporting the environment. And I think really, when you think about it, they go together, right? The environment supports health. And then, you know, it all flows together. So I, you know, did traditional medicine until about 2008. And that's when I really started seeing, no, this nutrition is super important. Then got back on that bandwagon, went to Andrew Weil's conferences, and got certified in integrative medicine. Then my journey into functional medicine, which was sort of the, oh my goodness, this is just where it's at, right? Then had my own issues in 2015, and it was just fortuitous that those two came together at the same time, and I was able to use functional medicine to help myself.

Wow.

Which, you know, when you actually go through it, really makes a big difference on how you understand it and how it impacts your view of medicine in general. You can't go back.

I found like the lectures and stuff, I mean, that might be like 25% of what we learn and know it, but the experience, that is a whole nother level because you understand these little nuances of what it's like to not be able to get out of bed or, you know, the things that our patients are telling us are like, oh yeah, I remember how that felt. And when you actually experience it, It really takes it to a whole nother level, not only of understanding, but even compassion. I'm sure you have a lot of compassion for your patients of all types, because whenever we've had those experiences, it really, really changes how we view it, right?

You really hear them, you know, and you want to help them because, you know, you were on the other side. And so it's just something that, you know, at this point is a gift, but at the time it was not something that I cherished for sure.

Oh, I say that so often, right? Like, now it's the best thing that ever happened. But I remember, like, my cancer, it was not fun. I was bald. I was, you know, like all kinds of things.

So, I know, I can't imagine.

So, well, yeah, let's jump in. Let's go and share your slides. I can't wait to hear this. So make sure that works and I'll kind of—

awesome.

Perfect.

Yeah, click. Awesome. Yeah, we can see it. Great. So go ahead.

You know, I guess the question is, is it implant illness? When I see a patient and I get their intake forms and, you know, sometimes, you know, we have this scoring system called the MSQ and I look at the MSQ and I'm like, oh, I think she has implants. And sure enough, you know, some— most of the time that's the case. You know, there's other illnesses that can cause those high MSQ scores of 90, 100. But implant illness seems to be, you know, just really can trigger a lot of symptoms. But when I experienced breast implant illness, it didn't exist.

Yeah.

And it wasn't being talked about. And nobody in the medical field knew anything about it, really. I went to my physicians and they were like, Jennifer, I have no idea what's going on with you. And I was like, gosh, you know, what am I going to do? So I had to kind of figure it out. And luckily, along the way, I had met other practitioners that had some background in this and were able to help me navigate how to get better. And so now I, you know, am passionate about trying to help other people get better with whatever illness they're experiencing, because implant illness is very similar to many other things that cause just profound oxidative stress and inflammation in the body. But when I talk about the root cause of breast implant illness, I really have to say, you know, why are we doing this? Why are we getting breast implants? And, you know, and should we look at, you know, ourselves? And I love the way Sophia Loren says that nothing makes a woman more beautiful than her belief that she is. And also just this process of being able to choose. There's a movement right now called Going Flat, And there was a study that just got published in UCLA, and, and they're offering this to women, the plastic surgeons. And, and so some of the women are— they had about 900 women, and 74% said they were great with that decision and they were very happy about it. So I think we, we need to think about what are our options and, and putting all of these things into our basket of possibilities and, and letting women make the decision. I don't know how you feel about that, but—

I love that, Dr. Kessmann, because really it's about empowering women to make the best choices for them. And what is true about women, we're born with this great intuition. So we kind of know, and there's no wrong, like we're not here to shame any choices that you choose, but if you can touch base with your own heart and soul and intuition, and whether you have implants and are getting them removed, or whether you're trying to decide whether or not to do them, whether you've never had implants or any of these choices, We just want to be here to empower you with more information to make the best choice for yourself.

And that, that is so true. And, and I also want to just say that, you know, I'm presenting this information and, and I know women have breast implants, but I also want to say that there's women that don't get ill. And, and I don't want anyone to have fear. You know, I don't want to create fear in anyone. And so, um, you know, just to be aware. you know, is really the purpose of this talk. And anyway, so, but these— this was a trip I took to one of the Blue Zones in the world in Nosara, Costa Rica. And the people there are just so beautiful and they eat the healthiest food. And, you know, it's a natural beauty, you know, that's coming from them from being joyful.

Right.

And I think joyfulness and happiness come from good health. And so anything that's taking away from your health is taking away from your Internal beauty and happiness and joy. And I see you post about that all the time, so I know you're on board with all of that.

No, I love that. And I love that because I've gone on my journey from feeling like I wasn't enough and I had my own insecurities. And as I've embraced who I am and showing up in the world, my little tagline now is, I don't give a Fig Newton what people think. Right? It's not that I don't care what— like, I'm still kind and compassionate. But what happened before was I was doing things based on what I thought people wanted of me. And now it's like I'm showing up as my true authentic self without apology. And that's beautiful, I think.

I love that. I so love that. And I'm working on that.

We're all in the journey. Oh yeah.

But along this journey, I've had the opportunity to meet some of the most amazing women. I went to the FDA last year to the hearing on breast implants where we met, you know, some of the people that were leading the movement back in the '90s. Sybil Goldberg, which I'd love to give her a little bit of credit, but the— or a lot of credit, I should say. Jamie Cook, Raylene, they've just been amazing in this movement and, you know, getting this information to be on the main stage, which is, I think, exactly what we need. When I was learning about implant illness, I went to Facebook. And that's where I learned a lot about it. And, you know, these women are amazing. The bottom group there is out of Canada. And it has over 130,000 members now. I mean, it's just unbelievable. About 300,000 women are getting implants every year in the United States. A third of those are for reconstructive purposes, but 70% are for cosmetic purposes. The top upper group is Breast Implant Victim Advocacy, and Jamie's great about posting all of the latest articles that come out on ALCL and breast implant illness, so you can find out, you know, even more information. from those sites. She keeps it very evidence-based. So I think that another thing that got us on the main stage is something called breast implant-associated ALCL. Only about 993 cases as of January 4th have been reported in the world. So, you know, relatively speaking, that's not a huge number, but— When you know 10 people that have had it, it's a huge number. And it's mainly the textured implants that are leading to this. So being educated, even if you're choosing to do implants, as to what may have the least risk. And so, you know, this is something that has been powerful in this movement. Breast implant illness. And this is just one of the slides that is very commonly presented on the internet. There's so many symptoms, and, uh, you know, and I think that's kind of classic for the, the, the presentation is sort of to put that in your mind is when someone has so many things going on. A lot of them kind of fall in line with mast cell activation syndrome, and there's been some, you know, Rita Kappel has done a lot of research on mast cell activation syndrome and also breast implant illness and followed these women that, you know, have had the gel bleed into their body for years and then have developed these symptoms, and then tracking them and finding that it resolves upon explant, kind of like you have seen. Anyway, I was involved in the Delphi Expert Consensus Panel trying to create an ICD-10 code, if you will, for breast implant illness and sort of a criteria that you can use to hopefully put this on the radar. And this is going to be published, I think, this year. But anyway, The 20 symptoms that came out first were similar to the ones that I presented on the slide before, but the brain fog and the fatigue are probably the, the most reported things, and then anxiety and depression and joint pain, and then also the rashes. And, and I think, you know, how to tease this apart from other things like hypothyroidism, for instance, you know, because— or, you know, other autoimmune diseases. Certainly people have autoimmune diseases that don't have breast implants and have other sources for all of this stuff. It's just hard to determine how do you know if it's the implants. For me, I started getting this rash on my chest.

Wow.

It was nothing that I'd ever seen in medicine in my 20 years of medicine. So itchy and everything. That's when I really started thinking about, could it be these implants that I have. And certainly the Facebook groups have just tons of pictures of this rash. After the fact, you know, after I explanted him, I, you know, became more aware of this as being an issue. But the panel met for several occasions, and these were the top 5 symptoms that ended up being the criteria that they were going to move forward with. And I should mention the brain fog. You know, these women have intense brain fog, and I'm not talking about like, where are my keys or my phone? phone, or, you know, it's like they can't figure out the way to get home from the store, you know. They forget all kinds of things, you know. There's been a couple of times where I've shipped things to patients because they've given me the wrong address, and I just think it's profound, you know, when you see something like that to think about breast implants or implant illness disease. Yeah, gosh, I love your input. So just Jump in anytime, Jill.

Great.

No, I'm just—

Okay. This is kind of a classic rash, you know, the chest rash. It's sort of a diffuse redness with some splotchiness maybe. You can get any kind of rash though, you know, urticaria. People can just have itching, you know, diffuse itching and have no rash, or they can have a fine papular rash. But a lot of these women, their rashes resolve after explantation. This woman has done a lot of work with— she's been on Business Insider if you want to see more about her story. She was focused on that on 2 occasions and just, you know, it's just unbelievable. But the top left is her before implants.

Wow.

This is when she started getting sick. And this, you know, is kind of the peak of her illness. And I don't know if you can see, but she's got disconjugate gaze.

Yes.

It's affecting her cranial, you know, something in her eyes or cranial nerves, and that resolved. And this is her plastic surgery follow-up appointment, and she's only at 3 months, I think, post-op. So she's not a patient of mine, but, but she really reached out to me and said, sure, share my stuff because I want people to learn about this.

That's so profound to see those photos because then people can really see how the change— because anyone can tell the differences Yes, and these are all over.

I mean, just hundreds and hundreds of patients that you see this similar scenario happen, and I call it the face of implant illness. And it, you know, it's sort of classic. This woman had implants that were saline, and one of them molded, which is another thing that can happen mainly in the saline implants.

Mm-hmm.

And this is This is post-op day 1 and post-op day 6. And you can see the changes in her inflammatory state, you know, just really remarkably—

Unbelievable. That's so profound.

And this woman also went on the news and was, yes, sure, share whatever you can that can help other women. And Liza, you can see her story also, but she was, you know, back in the time when breast implant illness didn't exist and nobody had heard of it. But demanded that her implants get taken out. And this is her, you know, postoperatively. So just remarkable changes. Talia is here in the Metroplex, and I met her in doing a CBS interview for the news on implant illness years ago. And this is her with the sort of a malar rash, sort of a dermatomyositis kind of look.

Mm-hmm.

But this is her, you know, on Facebook now. She says that all of her symptoms almost have completely gone away. And so just remarkable stories like that. And knowing these women, you know, I know that this is really— this has really happened, you know, because I saw it happening.

And Dr.

Kessmann, I was going to mention, and here you are with the slide, I'm assuming a lot of these women have more risk of autoimmunity, which could also resolve. And then also, like you said, the mast cell activation and some of the histamine processes. mastocytokine kind of reactions. So probably most of what we were seeing on those photos was either that autoinflammatory kind of autoimmune cytokine stuff or could be related to mast cell. Does that sound fair to what you're—

Yes, sure. Yeah, yeah, very. It's sort of like a mixture of different autoimmune diseases almost sometimes, and they may not have a positive test, you know, positive ANA or positive scleroderma. And it seems like these women, it takes a long time for them to become ill. So they may have the implants for 10-plus years.

Wow.

And the studies that have been done on implants are 6 years long. So of course, that didn't show, you know, a lot of these things that take 10 years to develop. But some of the work has been done by Professor Schoenfeld. I don't know if you saw him. He came to, I think, the Autoimmune The autoimmune IFM.

Oh, yes.

2018, he did a pro— he did his ASIA story. Um, but, uh, he did a lot of the work on, on what's called ASIA, which sort of encompasses breast implant illness, but Gulf War syndrome, um, a lot of other toxic diseases that activate the mast cells, uh, into, you know, in sort of a cytokine storm picture. Um, and, you know, and then of course there's Aristos, which, Johnny, which I know—

Yes.

You know about him, and he's done work with antibodies to silicone. And, you know, and so there's a lot— there was a study that came out last year from MD Anderson and Mark Clements, who does a lot of the work with the ALCL, and that study did have some associations with some autoimmune diseases, although it was, you know, retrospectively, and they weren't really looking for autoimmune disease. They were more looking at other issues. But as a side— sideshow, they, they found higher incidence of rheumatoid arthritis, higher incidence of Sjögren's, and higher incidence of scleroderma in those patients. Um, so, um, and then there's, there's a lot of studies. A lot of them are coming from other, other countries, you know.

Mm-hmm.

Um, but the FDA did this year, uh, or last year now— gosh, it's already January '21— but in September of last year, came out with some warnings on their website regarding breast implants. And that's really why I feel comfortable today speaking about this because it was so controversial that this didn't exist.

Uh-huh.

And now at least there's some— you know, the FDA came out and said that this illness is here and we need to be aware of it and we as the group wanted Informed consent. You know, we wanted women to be able to make this decision on their own. And so they recommended putting a black box warning on the— for the implants so that women could, you know, see this. So you can go and look. They have an ingredient list on their website now. And then they also have, you know, sort of the recommended informed consent that they're recommending.

This is amazing with the work. I mean, already I know you've been an advocate, but that's tremendous to have that warning because again, it's not like we're saying everybody should not do this, but just to be informed and make an educated choice. If you're high risk of autoimmunity, you may want to consider those types of things. I love that. And I know part of it's due to your hard work.

No, not mine. Not mine. I don't take credit. I, I was there, uh, for moral support. So, but, um, I, um, yes, um, all of the autoimmune issues that, that are, are there you know, they sort of started recommend— you know, showing them on the— what I wanted to say was that the black box warning is a recommended thing. And so it really is still going to take the surgeons, you know, putting all of this information out there.

Yeah.

This slide I wanted to include. This is a textured implant that is ruptured. And so this is cohesive. silicone. So there's 3 kinds of implants. One is silicone, one is saline, and then this cohesive silicone, which is sort of the new gummy bear implant. And this one happens to be ruptured. The fuzzy kind of stuff you see on there is the texture, and that was created to try to help prevent contracture around the implant or that scar tissue from squeezing the implant too much.

Yeah.

Happens in some women. And so, but then these implants, you know, if they're shiny, then those are the smooth But I will say that one of the misconceptions that people have about implant illness, well, my implants aren't ruptured. I'm fine. I don't have that because my implant isn't ruptured. But that's not true because these bleed even when they're not ruptured and then it dissolves. We know they're not lifetime devices. And so I don't want to get too far into that discussion. You know, the manufacturers recommend removing at 10 years and to have that, you know, the implant removed because they are not lifetime devices. And I think that's important for women to know that as well. You know that, you know this slide, right, from Dr. Ray?

Yes.

Okay. Well, Dr. Ray, you know, I got to work with him on Tuesday mornings for about 3 years and he was just amazing as far as his knowledge went. Chemical sensitivity and environmental illness. He had a lot of implant patients that came through and also a lot of chemical sensitivity patients. And with mast cell activation syndrome, you know, these patients get a lot of chemical sensitivities both to air, skin, and their foods. You know, just a lot of different sensitivities. And so removing those things that they're sensitive to is so important. To be able to heal. And, um, you know, and I saw patients that were so reactive, uh, Jill, uh, you know, I, I just, you know, it was unbelievable. They would react to paint on the sheetrock. And I don't know if you encountered chemicals.

Yeah, I love that you're putting it in the context because that's kind of where we started was this is one piece of the puzzle. And for some women, it's a huge, like, huge piece of the puzzle. But it's usually not the only thing in the whole world that's toxic in isolation. So part of it is probably the patients who have a higher toxic load to begin with are going to maybe develop a little more issues. Or if you're already a kind of sensitive person, that may play into your decision whether or not to get implants, whether to remove them. Because what I'm seeing in clinical practice, and I'm sure you are too, there is a more sensitive part of the population genetically. Those are the ones that— because like you said, there are some people who have no reaction.

Right.

So this is all part of the bigger picture of like the foundation of which the implant comes in.

Absolutely. I'm so glad you brought that up, the toxic body burden, which has been accumulating over time. And certainly our genetics even play into that. And there is some evidence when you read some of the articles by Schoenfeld that people with allergies, like terrible allergies from childhood, Have more problems with implants. And so maybe that is another piece that, you know, people want to pay attention to. Uh, you know, some people are saying, you know, the MTHFR, you know, gene that, that creates methylation issues and increases toxic burden also can play a role in breast implant illness as well. Um, I love this slide, you know, T cells.

Yes.

Um, you know, they're either your friend or your foe. And boy, are they ever, you know, we need them, but we want them to be quiet for the most part, you know. And, um, and I think, you know, people are understanding that more now with COVID and cytokine storm.

Yes.

And how these T cells, when they get too interested in something, they can cause a lot of problems, uh, although without them we have tons of infections and, you know, um, immune system issues. When these T cells secrete their cytokines, you know, these cytokines are just loose in the tissue and can go into other spaces and create inflammation, you know, call it, you know, amplify inflammation outside of the space where they're meant to be operational. And I think, you know, that the fact that these women usually get sick 6 to 8 years is sort of speaking to that, that fact that it's amplifying, amplifying, amplifying over time. Um, I love the cell gender response. When I stumbled upon this, I was like, oh my gosh, this is like the answer to everything almost. Um, but, but, you know, looking at the epigenetics of change, you know, things that change in regards to when a cell has had so much inflammation that it can't You know, it sort of can't live anymore and it releases its contents. And then those contents turn on receptors on the cells next door to increase inflammation. And so is this playing a role? You know, and I just— it makes sense. Certainly I don't have concrete evidence of that, but—

I love that you brought up the cell danger response because like you, as I've heard of this the last several years with Dr. Naveau's research, It's been so— it puts all the pieces together. And for those of you listening, if you've never heard of this, the very basics are when cells like Dr. Kessmann mentioned get disrupted and they spill their contents into the cytoplasm outside, those contents can trigger outside the cell a reaction where it says, hey, there's damage here. So we used to call it damage-associated pathogens or damage-associated triggers. And those things, those cell contents that are spilled outside, including ATP, will go outside and then trigger the external receptors. And the body's like, wait, this isn't supposed to be here. And it creates the cell danger response. There's a lot more to it. But bottom line is it creates chronic fatigue. It's underlying a lot of the infectious diseases like Lyme disease, tick-borne infections. It's underlying a lot of the toxicity, whether it's breast implant illness toxicity or mold illness or those. And it's common in fibromyalgia, chronic fatigue, autism. And so stopping this response and decreasing the effects on the outside of the cell can actually reverse a lot of those symptoms. It's easier said than done, but it's very— right?

Yeah. It just, you know, every little piece, I just was so fascinated with it, you know, even decreasing the responsiveness to vitamin D, you know, and, and, and, you know, increasing scar tissue and, oh, it's just fascinating. When I, when I learned about that from Dr. Navaux, and all of the other researchers that have put their work into that. And then you just mentioned all of this, so thank you so much for going into all of that. But any inflammatory state— we know sepsis is so inflammatory, and it causes such severe blood pressure fluctuations and just really intense symptoms. And people are very aware of that and the cytokines that get released in all of that. COVID-19, Mold illness, Lyme disease, autoimmune diseases, all of these have that intense inflammation that can create that whole pattern of disease symptoms that you can see. And so in the patients that I see that have implants, it's, gosh, we work through all of this. Do you have any of these other things that we can help you with? And I honestly, Jill, I never tell anyone to get their implants out. I mean, that is Yeah. And it has to really be almost like a family decision, you know, because it's such a step. And it's not a simple thing to commit to going under another surgery. And so I certainly don't take it lightly at all. And I would encourage everyone listening to never just jump to that, you know, make sure you've I love that you say that because here we are hoping to empower women to make the right choice for them.

We're not at all saying you must do this or that. It's more just giving more information so that you can make a great decision for you. And either way is the right decision if you decide and own it.

Yeah, I just really want to educate and then let people make their own decision on all of this. So this slide, I think we could spend hours on. I don't want to do that, but, but it's all about reestablishing immune tolerance and allowing the, you know, removing the things that are maybe triggering the immune system that, that will allow those T cells to like relax, you know, and not, not continue to release cytokines. And so removing unnecessary toxins, things that, you know, dysbiosis, Candida, anything that you might be exposing yourself to. I work really hard on air quality because I find that patients aren't really looking there. They're not thinking about it, that they're sleeping with fabric softener all around them and all of these chemicals coming out of their foam mattress, and all of those things can cause some of these symptoms. Removing whatever you can to decrease that toxic body burden and allowing the natural detoxification process to begin. Starting with the high-level sweat, urine, and stool, I always go, we only have 3 ways, really, and then our skin to detox. Getting rid of the toxins any way that we can can help that toxic body burden. I always recommend organic food, and I know you do. Then at Dr. Ray's clinic, I also learned about the food rotation, which I do implement so much. Because a lot of my patients are so health-conscious and they eat super healthy, but they're eating the same thing. And when they get that permeable gut and inflammatory response going on in the gut, they start reacting to everything they're eating, is what I find out when I do the testing. And so increasing rotation of foods every 4 to 7 days, based on the fact that T-cell populations decrease over about a 3 to 4 day period of time. So So, um, I love that. And then filtered water out of glass. Um, plastic was just, you know, if anyone brought a plastic bottle into Dr. Ray's clinic, he was like, no plastic. So, um, and, and now we know and have seen— so I've seen the, the speakers who talk about, um, mast cell activation and saying how sensitive their patients are to these plastics, even, you know, when they're getting the vitamin IVs.

Yeah.

They're reacting to the tubing and things like that. So yeah, I'd love any of your input on any of that.

Yeah, the phthalates are kind of softeners in some of the plastic tubing and then the BPA, which is of course water bottles and things. And now there's BPA-free, but it's a different type of BPA. And I actually think all plastic should be avoided. I don't think that the new BPAs are any safer or at least not safe enough to be used. Now, granted, back in the day when we did travel, there was still once in a while where I'd use plastic bottles once in a while. But as long as you're like 90% of the time using glass when you have the choice, then that 10% doesn't matter so much. So love that.

Love.

And it's funny you mentioned something people have heard me say: clean air, clean water, clean food. Like a really simple thing. And that's like the foundation of detox. And you're mentioning all those things here about air and water and food. Yeah.

Yeah, that's great. I, you know, and I always thought I lived pretty clean until I went, and then I realized I'm not living near clean enough. And, you know, I had so much, so much in my house that I needed to remove, and, you know, to get to a level where my air feels really clean now, and I love that.

I love— I was just going to mention really quick because I had breast cancer. This year is 20 years, if you can believe that. So, um, and I remember afterwards understanding, oh wow, my soaps and my lotions and my cleaning supplies and my— all of these things actually matter. And starting that process of really cleaning up my makeup, my— all the stuff we women use, including like household cleaners and bath and body products and everything. And it takes— if you've never looked at that, it could take a year or two to really go through. And it's a little more expensive and you have to trade out brands, but But if you want a resource, Environmental Working Group has so many resources on toxicity levels of makeup and hair products. They have a database called Skin Deep, and it's all free. It's ewg.org. So it's all free resources if you're looking, because I remember like taking a couple years to transition. Now I just naturally always choose clean products, but it takes a while. But it is important. It's really important, especially our young women who are putting on more makeup or more bath and body products. Because their skin is going to actually surface-wise absorb more, and they're going to be more affected at 12 than they are at 36. So really—

I hope my daughter's listening right now. But go ahead. So no, I totally appreciate you saying that. Yeah. And so I try to keep it super simple, you know, just an unfragranced soap that you can wash the floors with, hydrogen peroxide. Baking soda does tons of good in bathrooms. And then the windows, you can do vinegar. And so it can be really simple. And then when you get to the products for face and all of that, I love Environmental Working Group, and I'm so glad you brought that up. And yeah, for food and organic foods as well. But here's another thing, number 5, the vagal activity that gets going with these patients when they have all of this cytokine, you know, issue and inflammation, it triggers their fight or flight. And then that fight or flight propagates the whole problem and they get into a vicious cycle of being super anxious that's triggering the immune system, that's triggering the anxiety. And, and so really finding ways to break out of that. And there's a lot of work like with HeartMath and, you know, learning how to breathe and learning how to calm that fight or flight response on your own, getting really grounded using the ground. I love to— I love to recommend using trees and Going outside and enjoying nature. And there's a lot of evidence that it decreases fight or flight, which can help healing. And Annie Hopper, you know Annie Hopper?

Oh yes, the DNRS program. I'm a huge fan. In fact, I just created a limbic system retraining ideas, and there's like 12 of them because there's this DNRS, there's Dr. Gupta's program, there's HeartMath, all the ones you mentioned. And then, but sometimes like for our Type A people like myself, one more to-do, one more program actually makes us more stressed. And these are great programs, don't get me wrong, but what I try to do on that handout was like things like craniosacral or binaural beats, some of these things that are passive, you can just receive and enjoy, or walking in nature. And you— all of those can help. So I love that you're talking about this because I literally believe that 100% of people dealing with any form of toxicity have to address the limbic system in order to get back to 100%. Like, that's a piece of the puzzle for everybody.

I am so glad you are saying that because I, I love that. And I I always sometimes feel like I get a, you know, an unusual look when I tell them to go outside and ground, or, you know. Yeah. And they're like, really? But I think it really, you know, when you go to the mountains, which you get to live so close to, I mean, you just feel so good. And could any of this actually be scientific? And, you know.

100%. And, you know, I've done a little silly little thing though. I've been in Colorado, so there's days when it's really cold out. And I don't know if it's been like below 32, but it could be like 45 or, you know, 35, 40. And I'll be out walking the dogs and I'll sometimes take off my shoes and socks and stand barefoot on the grass. And it's cold. I mean, it's warm too, like, right? It's not, not that all year round like that, but I have actually chosen to stand barefoot on a very, very cold grass, but it's so invigorating. And it might just be a minute or two, but those kinds— and you can do it, of course, warm summer beach, whatever. But You don't have to wait for the spring. And there's something kind of invigorating about standing barefoot on 35-degree grass.

I bet you are activating the vagal system.

Right? And then breathing. I incorporate breathing there because there's a— and I'm like, this is going to be the new Wim Hof, you know, like this ice bath. I'm like, Dr. Jill standing on cold grass.

Oh my. I haven't done that yet, but we don't get snow very often, but I'm going to try it next time.

It takes a brave soul. It took me a bit. I'm telling you, it's pretty darn invigorating.

It reminds me, I went to Alaska. I was in Barrow, Alaska, and there were people that would jump into the iceberg floating water.

Oh my goodness.

I don't know, maybe I guess they had that intense reaction to that. Establishing restorative sleep, I think that plays also into the fight or flight and using whatever you need to, melatonin, or I use a lot of magnesium to help with sleep and gut health. And then supporting supplementation and detoxification, you know, and I think integrative and functional medicine docs are the best at probably doing that, and I'll just, you know, that's just how I feel. And then having tons of social support, and that really helps to calm the fight or flight, and I think a lot of these women are, you know, some of them have been sick for so long and You know, just really need that support, you know, to help them through all stages of this process. And, and then the last thing that I think is important is lymphatic drainage. And but with any toxicity, I think that you have to do that at the right time and the right amount, because you can activate those— all those T cells when those toxins get moved towards the lymph glands. You know, it can reactivate, you know, an immune process that, um, had been quieted. So, so just to be aware of that. I don't know, how do you have, uh, do you, how do you recommend that?

Oh, I couldn't agree more. I feel like patients who are either detoxing from mold or they're treating an infection like a chronic Epstein-Barr or Lyme illness or this post-surgical explantation, it's so critical to involve the lymphatics. And so I'll start with gentle things like dry brushing Epsom salt baths, lymphatic massage, drainage remedies. There's a bunch of homeopathic drainage remedies I use. Those are all kind of gentle ways, but you can overdo it. So even with the drainage remedies, one of my favorite ones, Pecan is the brand, I have no association with them, but they have one for the kidneys, the liver, and the lymph. And I usually start with the lymph and then add the kidneys and then add the liver kind of gently. But those are all ways, and there's a lot more. than that that can help that lymphatic. But that's a hard one because in allopathic medicine, like you and I are trained, we don't talk much about lymph, do we?

I don't remember anything about it. I remember, you know, in anatomy, but that was probably the last time it got talked about. But, you know, the lymph is everywhere in our brain, and, you know, it's just— yeah, it's a whole other system that I think is so important with detox. detoxification. So I think that is my last slide, and this is just one of my favorite pictures. I love fine art. And anyway, but thank you, Jill. And yeah, I'm so glad that we were able to have this today.

Oh, this is tremendous. So, Dr. Kessmann, this has been absolutely phenomenal, and I know I'm getting some comments through here. People are really interested And we're going to share this, so we'll be sure and share the information. I look forward to continuing to learn, and maybe we'll have to have you back so that we can talk even more about what we're learning.

Thank you.

And this plays into, like I said, there's often different layers, but if you are a woman and you've tried to deal with some of these other things and you're stuck, this is one consideration that I would think about. And I'm assuming you're taking on new patients and you do consults around this area. Is that right, Dr. Kessmann?

I do. I'm in the Dallas area and I have a functional medicine practice that I do consults for many different things, but often I see implant illness either because they know or they don't know and somehow were led to me through the internet.

And drawn to you. Yeah. So where can people find you? I want to be sure and give your website and I'll put a link there as well, but what's your website?

Yeah, it's drjenniferkessmann.com, and you can find me there and, you know, send an email to the contact page. I also operate under Kessmann Clinics, and, you know, yeah, I would love to help anyone that needs some guidance.

Fantastic.

Well, thank you so much for joining us today. This was fun, and I will be sure and get this out to the group. And all that. Thank you, everybody who's listening. Be sure and post your questions because I'll come back in here. And, and on Facebook, do you have a professional page or anywhere on Facebook where people can contact you?

Sure, it's Jennifer Kessmann, MD, and that's on Facebook. And I'm on Instagram.

Wonderful.

Jennifer.KessmannMD as well.

Awesome, everybody. Well, have a great Friday afternoon, and thank you, Dr. Kessmann. This was—

Thank you, Jill. I loved it. And Look forward to hearing questions and whatever else comes up from this.

You got it.

All right.