Episode 32: Three Seconds of Courage & Turning Reactivity into Creation with Josselyne Herman-Saccio

All right, in this episode, get ready for it. Are you ready to hear what 3 seconds of courage is and how you too can find it? What if we could give you a cheat sheet to go from being messable with and reactive to being responsive? And what do gazelles and lions have to do with all of this? Tune in for this and more as we interview world thought leader Jocelyn Hermann-Saccio. Welcome to Super Connections. I am your host, Jennifer K. Hill, helping you you with the Golden Triangle of Connection, where you will super connect to yourself, others, and your purpose. Join me each week as I will share from some of my favorite tips and tools for super connecting, and I'll bring in some of my favorite friends and thought leaders to help support you on your journey to super connecting to the life of your dreams. Hello friends, and welcome back to Super Connections for episode 32, as we have a very special guest today who's a dear friend, my business coach, thought leader, and once kicked Whitney Houston off the chart for number one when she was part of a girl band called Boy Crazy. We have with us today Jocelyn Hermansaccio, who is a prolific thought leader who worked with the personal development company Landmark Worldwide. For close to 3 decades, and that's actually where our paths first crossed. And I think, Joss, if I'm not mistaken, it was all because of another podcast I did years ago. I loved you so much after I—

Oh, that's right. That's right. I forgot about that.

Yeah, I think that's how you and I became friends, is I used to have an old podcast called Get Yourself the Job, and I was like, this woman is amazing. I need to interview her for the podcast. And then lo and behold, we became friends.

I remember you being in the advanced course that I was leading, and this is one of my vivid early memories of you. And I said, oh, I love your ring. And you literally took it off and gave it to me. You were like, here. I was like, what? Who is this woman? Who is this generous soul? So that's my experience of you.

Oh, thank you, Joss. Well, I'm just so grateful for your mentorship, your friendship, your incredible Unmessable With podcast, and all of the different tools and technologies. If you tune in till the end, you're going to get a special free gift from Joss. So I definitely encourage you to do that. And Joss, I'd love to have you share with us here. This podcast is about how we super connect to ourselves, others, and our purpose. And let's be honest, we all get kind of messable with. I call

you, and I have somebody I call. So there you go. We all need coaches. It's smart.

Yeah, we all get messable with. So let's talk a little bit about what are the tools and techniques that when we're noticing we're getting messable with, we're getting triggered by our partner, whether it's our romantic partner, our business partner, our best friend, our child. How do we get unmessable with?

Yeah, it's— first of all, I just wanna talk a little bit about what unmessable with isn't, because sometimes people hear that. Now, you have a very fluid relationship to it because we've worked together for so long, but most people hear it and think it means being tough or something, and that's not really what it is. It's literally about being super connected. to your vision and what really matters to you and being able to take action from that space rather than the world of reaction, which is where most people spend 99% of their day, is reacting to things. And high performers are really good reactors because they have to react to fires that they need to put out and demands of the board of director or whatever it is. So our muscle of being in the world of reaction is so over That muscle of being connected to our vision and creation is atrophied to a certain degree, right? So being unmessable with is not about having nothing trigger you or have nothing upset you. It's that you're able to shift from that world of reaction to the world of creation and vision on a dime. So quicker and quicker. So how do you do it? The first thing is you've got to get clear about what your vision is, which most people are not clear because when I ask people, what's your vision? Mostly what they give me is a goal. They'll say, I wanna raise $1 million, or I wanna start this company, or I wanna sell this company, right? Now, goals, while they're very powerful, and I work inside of goals all the time, is very different than vision. Vision is more of a contextual conversation. It's a spatial or experiential conversation rather than a tangible, measurable achievement.

Hmm.

Right? So the first thing I would say is get clear about the vision. Okay, let's say you do sell the company, then what will be available as an experience that you are really committed to? So maybe it's freedom, maybe it's fulfillment, maybe it's connection or self-expression. So once you're clear about the vision, you have what I call is a pre-created space that you've now authored that you can have as a context. For whatever you're dealing with, the content in your life. So now let's say something happens and, or someone happens and says something and you get hooked. In that moment, being able to identify that you're in the world of reaction is the first step. So you have to be aware enough to see the red flags, whether they're physical, like your chest gets tight or your stomach goes into a knot or your face gets red, whatever the physical red flag is. And also the linguistic red flag, because there are things we say to ourselves or out loud to others in those moments that we're hooked or reactivated. They're familiar, kind of, why are you doing this to me? Or, oh my God, what is wrong with people? Or whatever it is we say, that's an indicator that we're in that world. So if you have the red flag identified, you can catch it.

Mm-hmm.

And then what I work with people to do is create what we call a hack, which is something physical that you're going to do to interrupt that brain pattern. Because what's happening in those moments of being reactivated or in survival mode is your brain is going to that amygdala part of your brain, which is the fight, flight, freeze kind of mode where you are in survi— you're not even there. You're like on automatic at that point. There's no you there. So it's when you get upset, whatever upset is for you, whoever's listening. That's an example of reacting, right? So you've left the building and now your nervous system is in a tizzy, right? So being able to interrupt that requires something physical, because if you try and think your way out of it, your thoughts are coming from the very same part of the brain that is reacting. So that's why things like just calm down and just telling yourself things don't usually work except for a moment, maybe. Because it's not intervening in where your brain is functioning from. So if you do something physical, clap your hands or shake them, or, you know, maybe stand up and stretch, do something that's going to interrupt the brain pattern that is happening. It can give your brain the opportunity to shift from the amygdala to the prefrontal cortex, which is where all rational thought and creative thought can happen. So that's a lot of like brain talk, but basically what you're doing is you're interrupting the road you're going down. And you're resetting, and then you can shift to your pre-created space. But if you haven't pre-created a vision, you can't shift to it. So you end up back in the world of reaction by default because it has so much force and muscle. So that's the Cliff Notes version of how you can shift from reaction to creation. Yeah.

In fact, I remember when I was with you in New York, when we were doing one of our masterminds together, I don't know, for those of you watching on YouTube, if you can see this, I was inspired to create on ChatGPT this thing that says connection and contribution. And then the vision is that people have a deep connection to themselves, others, and purpose. And so I also suggest to my own clients to have— what do you do? You have a cheat sheet. I call it my little cheat sheet. So what do we do when we get angry? Sometimes we look at our phone, we go to numb, right? And so if we look at our phone and we already have something saved, of course, do what Joss says. And then if by some chance you forget and you go to look at your phone, I have on there my little cheat sheet, my vision, my big dream. And I also have my 3 favorite hacks that I use. Yeah. Just to drop back into awareness. Because going back to the analogy of the brain and this fight or flight or freeze sort of thing that we go through, you look at a gazelle who gets chased by a lion, and it's only in humans where a gazelle gets chased by a lion and then the gazelle next to it gets eaten. That gazelle runs a few more feet and then its entire body shakes and it releases all that tension that's in its body. And then it goes back to being a gazelle. And it's not like worrying. It's okay. It might get chased by a lion tomorrow, but it doesn't sit around ruminating on it. But that's us as humans. So how do we shake it off?

As human beings, the difference between us and a gazelle, although I don't speak gazelle, is that we have language. And language is what keeps things perpetuating and keeps things in our space. As it were, incomplete, as you and I would say. When some— because whatever happened in the past, just like for the gazelle, whatever happened, it's over. It is actually complete. But as human beings, we keep talking about it to ourselves or to other people or saying, oh, that person shouldn't have done that, or I should have known better, or whatever. And that's why we get stuck with all this stuff that keeps us from being free to be connected, to be super connected to who we are as a space, to that vision that we've created. When we get disconnected from who we truly are, and I call that your vision, then what ensues is not only reaction, but burnout. Burnout is inevitable if you're disconnected from your vision. And I don't care what you're doing because that's content. Content is content. It's irrelevant. The context is decisive. So you could go work out at the gym, But if you're in the context of, I really should work out, it'll be a different workout than if you're creating vitality and wellbeing and you're on the treadmill. It's a different experience of life.

Let's deep dive in that. I know you just referenced space, and then people may have missed that little nuance that you just tied those 2 concepts together. So let's expand upon what this space is and how we can become masterful at creating new spaces.

If you look at, let's just use context as, 'cause context is space and it's like a lens through which you view yourself, your life, and people and circumstances, right? So for those of you that can see me right now, I'm holding up my finger, or if you can see me, you see that. But if you can't see me, I'm holding up my finger. And in the context body part, this is a finger. Mm-hmm. But in the context number, it's a 1. And in the context direction, it's an up. Nothing's altered in reality. So the content hasn't changed. But the moment you alter the context, which lives in language, it's a linguistic phenomenon, everything alters about how reality shows up for us. So the space or the context is decisive, not the content. So when people say they have this person is toxic or this person is, or this situation is annoying or whatever it is, now there is no annoying or toxic. There's just whoever's standing there. But then the space that we are constituted as, or the vision or the lens or the context, is what gives us our view of the content. So there is no annoying mother. There's just your mother saying whatever she says, wear your sweater or whatever she says. And then inside the context, she's on my butt about everything, then she's going to occur like annoying. And inside the context, my mother loves me, it might occur as an expression of love to ask if you wore your sweater. So the way life shows up for you is determined by the context, not by what's in your life, whether it's the amount of money you have, your business partner, your situation, your health, anything. It's not about what's happening. It's about the context in which we are holding what's happening, the space. In which what's happening is showing up.

I'm gonna do a little cheat here for everybody because I do know Joss and I know some of my favorite stories that she tells. So Joss, may I be so bold as to ask you to share the story about your father-in-law? I literally reference that to everybody. I'm like, I gotta tell you this story. So I'll just refer people to this episode from now on.

Yeah. Great. Yes. So for, to begin with, I have an amazing husband. My husband is like the best thing in the whole world. He's like the source of my, Happiness, the source of my great life. He would do anything for me. He would do anything for his whole family. Really, he'd do anything for you, Jim.

He's like that type of husband,

you know. And he had this father named Tommy who was five foot six Italian, screamed as his way of talking. He'd be like, "Bla bla bla." And people called him Little Napoleon because he was like a really mean, like nasty guy. Now, when people warned me about him when I first met him thirty years ago. They were like, when you meet Tommy, you're gonna see he's really mean. And I was like, what are you talking about? There's no such thing as mean people. I'm like Miss Pollyanna possibility. I'm like, no, it's the context. It's your lens. It's blah, blah, blah. And then I met Tommy and he was a pain in the ass and he would just be— and no matter what I did, it was like I could not get connected to this man. It was like no matter what, it just was like a battle. And we were at war for 10 years. To the point where we wouldn't even go see them. We'd go, maybe we'd make other plans for the day that we would see them. So we only had to be there for 2 hours. It was really, I, but I kept trying. I was like, I really have this ideal to be a good daughter-in-law, but couldn't crack it. And the final straw was one day when my 5-year-old daughter, you know, we had been to his house and he called us afterwards and he's like, let me speak to Sophie. And I'm thinking he's going to call to make amends with his 5-year-old because he was just like mean and yelling at her. I was like, this is ridiculous. I'm not going to be around this guy anymore if he's going to be this way to my kid. So he calls to talk to her. So I'm hoping, like, he's gonna apologize. And I only hear her side of the conversation. And she's, no, Papa Tommy, no, I don't have it. No, I didn't take it. No, I didn't steal your hairbrush. And she's crying. And I am like, I am literally ready to jump through the phone and stab him with a knife, right? First of all, he's bald. Why does he even need a hairbrush? Second of all, she's 5 years old. Go to Duane Reade, get a hairbrush. Like, why are you even accusing a 5-year-old? It was like, I was like, that's it. He's dead to me. That's it, right?

The straw that broke the camel's back.

That was it. So then I'm in a transformative seminar myself, right? I'm in the back of the room visiting a girlfriend who was leading that course, and somebody was sharing something, and I got present to how much I love my life. I love my husband. I love my family. It's like a real— like, I got present to the gratitude of my life. And then all of a sudden, it occurs to me. That Michael's the source of my great life and Tommy's his father.

Hmm.

Now, at first that might not seem obvious, but I'm a very logical person. And by the laws of syllogism, if X, then Y, if Y, then Z, so then if X, then Z. And if Michael's the source of my great life and Tommy's his father, you could say that Tommy Is the source of my great light. And I was like dumbfounded and I started weeping and I was like, oh my God. And I was weeping because I'd been such a nasty, stingy, judgmental daughter-in-law for a decade. And here I am, oh, peace on the planet is my mission. And I said, I'm at war with Little Napoleon. So in that moment, I'm like weeping. And the leader comes to the back of the room and she goes, what's going on? And I told her. And she's, you gotta go call him. And I was like, no, you don't understand. He hates me. I hate him. He hates me. And I imagine he like retired to North Carolina. I imagine him like in a log cabin with a rifle, like gonna kill people if they come because this is like my story about him. So she's, wow, you're such a chicken. She used a different word, but she said, you're such a chicken. And, and then I'm like justifying, I'm not chicken. I do this, I do that. And then I realize anytime I'm justifying myself, I'm in that world of reaction. So then all of a sudden it occurs to me that it's Father's Day. And in that moment I was like, I couldn't wait one more second. I was like, I had to call him. I could cry right now, right? Just, I had to call him. So I didn't have his phone number because we were so close. So I called my husband and I said, give me your dad's phone number. He's like, why? And I told him the whole thing I just told you. And he's, please do not get me involved in your breakthroughs. So he finally gives me the number and I'm shake— I'm so scared. The gazelle of the lion. I was literally like, as I'm dialing the phone, I'm praying. To the phone gods, please don't answer. Please don't answer. Please don't. And he answers. Ow, ow. Because that's how he sounds in my filter, right? And I was like, hey Tommy, it's Joss. He goes, who? And then right away what was there, because it was built up and strong, was see what a jerk he is, blah, blah, blah. But I created being a loving and appreciative daughter-in-law no matter what. So that was pre-created space that I had created before I got on the phone with him. So I said, it's Jocelyn, your daughter-in-law. And he goes, what's wrong? 'Cause I hadn't spoken to him in a long time, so it might, maybe something happened to somebody. I said, everybody's fine. He goes, then why are you calling? And I was like, he's not gonna make this easy on me. So I said, and then I chickened out because it was Father's Day. So I was like, I'm calling you for a couple reasons. He goes, and what are they? And I said, one is to wish you a happy Father's Day. Like, it was like

so, so bullshitty

icing on mud. It was, he's like, and what's the other? And in that moment, I was either gonna throw a set, right? And step up and own up to what a creepy daughter-in-law I've been for 10 years, or I was going to make up some BS thing. Oh, I wanted to let you know that Sophie or say, or whatever. So I grew a set and I said, I'm calling to apologize. And he said, I'm listening. It's just, you reap what you sow. I said, I'm calling to apologize for being a nasty, stingy, judgmental daughter-in-law for the last 10 years. And I want you to know that it ends now. And that what you can count on me for from this moment on is being a loving and appreciative daughter-in-law, no matter what. And I saw today that you are the source of my great life. He goes, what are you talking about? And I said, Michael is the source of my great life and you are his father. And I've been dishonoring that for a decade and it ends now. So then there's like silence. And I thought maybe he hung up or something. I was like, hello? And he goes, nobody's ever called me a good father. I always thought Michael turned out good by accident. And I said, no, not at all. You adopted him. You got him sober. You gave him a career. I said, he knows how to be a human being because of you. And we started talking and he's saying, I always felt that I was a bad father. And because he has another son who's been in and out of rehab and not doing well. And blamed himself for that. But I never bothered to get to know my father-in-law. I was too busy knowing my story about him. And he said, I, when I moved down to North Carolina, I started working with these kids that if they get an A in their class, I take them up in my airplane and I teach them how to fly. And I'm going, you have an airplane? I literally had no idea who this person was. I was well acquainted with the Tommy in my story, but the real human being I had no clue about because I'd never bothered to even find out or be connected. To that reality, those stories and filters are like a block to reality. So anyway, we're we're sharing, we're talking, sharing with me. I was like, oh my God! This is like a human being, right? So at the end of the conversation, I said, if you could have anything, what would you want? Because I'd want a relationship with my son. I don't know why he doesn't call me, and I do know why he didn't call him because he was protecting me, and he was like trying not to have war in the house. I said, I'll handle it. It's done. He goes, it's impossible. I said, if you and I could have this conversation. Anything is possible. He said, I'll give you that. And then I called Michael and it did take me a few conversations to get him to call his father. But within a week, Tommy's emailing me saying, thank you for that conversation. You've given me my family back. Thank you, Dad. He's calling himself Dad. We became IM buddies. We spoke every week and we really ended up building a family. And he got to know our whole, all our kids, which he hadn't even met our youngest child. That's how disconnected we were. And then a few years later, we got a phone call that he died in a plane crash flying his plane, which was his favorite thing to do. And in that moment, obviously you're shocked and it's sad and you grieve, but it was complete.

Hmm.

Because he knew how much we loved him and we knew how much he loved us. And there was nothing left unsaid or blamed. It was clean. And that's the power of 3 seconds of courage. It took me 3 seconds of courage to alter the future forever, alter the context forever. And I had many opportunities after I had that phone call with him to go back to that old story about him because he didn't change how he was. He kept yelling and doing all that stuff, but it no longer looked the same because I had created this lens called, I am a loving and appreciative daughter-in-law no matter what. Through love and appreciation, everything looks different than through, he's scary and I need to protect myself from him. So the context is decisive, and that's a pretty clean example of it.

I'm almost speechless, Joss. I'm just sitting here tearing up every time I hear that story. It gets me. You get me every time.

I know. It's one of those stories. It gets me too. It's because it's moving. And what's moving about it for me It's not just the miracle of 3 seconds of courage, but that you have that ability. There's no person who doesn't have language. Like the gazelle doesn't, you do as a human being. So there's no situation that isn't transformable because really what you suffer over isn't what's happening. It's the conversation you have around what's happening. So there are no toxic people. There are toxic stories. There are no bad situations. There's bad stories. So it's what do you need to create so that you have power and freedom and peace of mind and an experience that you're creating rather than reacting to?

Joss, we could talk to you for hours. Clearly, I think this is the 3rd podcast I've done with you in different contexts, including you for your Unmessable With podcast. Go check out Joss's Unmessable with podcasts. Tell everybody, Joss, we'll put it in the show notes as well, where they can go for your free gift, where they can go to find out.

The podcast is Be Unmessable With. It's wherever you get podcasts. But the gift I want to give you guys is a cheat sheet, like you said, of how to do an instant reset from reaction to creation. And it's at my website, but you can go to a special link. It's beunmessablewithgift.com, and you will get this instant reset.

Amazing. For any of you out there who are looking for 3 seconds of courage, maybe just that one little shot of courage that can help you have that conversation that's been breaking your heart, or maybe somebody in your life's heart, probably both of your hearts for—

Yeah.

Days, months, decades, whatever it is, may this episode be your 3 seconds of courage to go out and have that conversation you need. I'm Jennifer K. Hill, and it's always a pleasure to be with you. Thank you. Thank you.