005: Brand Obsessed with Emily Heyward

With Venmo Stash.

A taco on one hand and ordering.

A ride in the other means you're stacking cash back with Venmo Stash. Get up to 5% cash back when you pick a bundle of your favorite brands. Earn more cash when you do more with Stash. Venmo Stash terms and exclusions apply. Match $100 cash back per month. See terms of Venmo Me Stashterms.

When it comes to gifting, everyone on your list deserves something special. Luckily, Marshall's buyers travel far and wide, hustling for great deals and amazing gifts so you don't have to. That means your mom gets that cashmere sweater, your best friend that Italian leather bag, your your co workers unwrap their favorite beauty brands and your nephews the coolest new toys. Go ahead. A price is this good, you can grab something for yourself too. Marshalls we get the deals, you gift the good stuff. Shop now@marshalls.com or find a store near you.

This is your time. How can we earn twice as much in half the time with joy and ease while serving the highest good? That is our guiding question here at the Freetime Cafe, your home for heart based business. I'm your host Jenny Blake. Join me for conversations with authors, friends and fellow business owners as we explore ways to free your mind, time and team to do your best work. Now onto today's show.

Hello everybody. I am thrilled and delighted to be here today with Emily Hayward. She is the co founder and Chief Brand Officer at Red Antler, the leading brand company for startups and new ventures. Since 2007, Emily has worked closely with founders to develop purposeful strategic visions for their companies and has led branding efforts for some of the most disruptive brands on the planet, including Casper, Allbirds, Boxed Prose, and a whole lot more. In 2019, Inc magazine named Emily among the most important entrepreneurs of the past decade. Fast Company has called her a brand whisperer and I'm delighted to celebrate her first book, Building a Brand People Love from Day One, which was published by our shared Joint publisher portfolio in June 2020. Emily, welcome to the show.

Thank you so much for having me.

Yeah, I've mentioned this before hitting record, but you've been on my radar for many years. My friend Adam said that you are a genius brand strategist and a brilliant badass. The heart of Red Antler.

I love Adam.

Me too. So there's your latest accolades we can throw up on the website.

Amazing. Yes.

You have been a beacon for him for me, even by proxy. Just Looking at what you're doing and creating not just with the brands in your portfolio at Red Antler, which you've had it for over a decade, but also how you run the business of Red Antler. You know, that's really fascinating. I don't want to assume, but I'm pretty sure you sometimes will take equity for some of the newer companies, and you've almost, at this point, productized brand and brand strategy in some ways. So I'm excited to just dig into how you think about your own business and then, of course, by extension, building brands people love for your clients as well.

Sounds good. Let's dig in.

Yeah, I can't wait. Okay, well, let me start with. Toward the end of the book, you said, and I found this surprising and also unsurprising in certain ways. You said it was hard to talk about yourself, that you. Even in terms of the book, you had a hard time getting comfortable kind of using terms like I and me. And your natural inclination. You're not on social media very much. Me either. I don't do any social media. And that you kind of want the Red Antler brand to speak for itself, but that you realized a brand and a company and a business is inextricable from its founders and that the founders, as Adam said, you're the heart and soul, or a big piece of Red Antler's heart, that actually it is important to get out there. And I know you tried your best to say yes to podcasts like this one. So how do you strike that balance? And how did you find sort of the courage to come more out in front even with this book?

So I think part of where my discomfort comes from is that in terms of the actual work we do every day at Red Antler, I am just a small piece of it. You know, obviously, I'm helping run the company and I'm helping guide the team. And. But our work is so collaborative, both among our team and with our clients. So nothing has ever been put out the door that one person was responsible for, let alone me. And I think because of that, I'm just very much operating every day in a team mentality, thinking more about how do we get all the pieces to work together and how do we get all the voices being heard and leading to a better whole, rather than how do I take credit for this achievement. But I also think that we're living in a time, which I appreciate, where people care very deeply about the human beings behind the company, and that's true for the products they buy and that's true for the businesses they choose to partner with. And because of that, I realize it's important for me to be out there espousing our values, putting forth my point of view. It might turn some people off, but that's okay, right? I think that we want to make sure that we're partnering with businesses who are philosophically aligned with us. And there's no way to guarantee that if we're not being clear about what our philosophy is.

It does seem like this year has been a call for everybody to do that more directly, to come forward, speak up, advocate and kind of show who you are. And then on the flip side, you share an example in the book about Soul Cycle. And when the owner of the company, through a certain fundraiser for a certain someone, people got really pissed off that there it is. It isn't inextricable like the brand message of a company like SoulCycle and being inclusive and diverse. It has to go all the way to the top and right back down. And even, even Everlane got under some heat this year. It's almost like everything was coming forward of you better match your brand from the inside out.

Definitely. And I think a lot of these newer companies whose messaging has been so rooted in, in a mission, in a set of values, are certainly more under the microscope. And you know, you could argue that's a little unfair, right? Like people aren't giving the same level of examination to more traditional, long standing corporations. But that's also because people don't expect as much from those corporations. I think these newer brands have been built on a promise of doing things differently and through that promise have been able to create really meaningful and powerful relationships with consumers. But it also means you better not betray it.

Yeah, it's true. Isn't that so interesting to the high expectations, like, it's just such an interesting, fascinating year. We're in with 2020 and for listeners, I mean, I, thankfully, because of Adam, who I mentioned earlier, he's educated me for a decade now on the importance of all the deep digging and excavation that goes into a brand. Before you ever see the logo and icon and color scheme of a brand. And my friend, shout out to my friend Lindsay as well, who's really brilliant in this area. What shifts have you seen even throughout the year that was 2020, in terms of how brands, how you're doing that excavation process, has it, has anything changed in terms of that process of working from the inside out?

Well, I think that what's changed is that the stakes feel even higher. You know, I think that we're living in a time where it feels very difficult for businesses to succeed. You know, everyone's been hunkered down. There's obviously an incredible amount of uncertainty around the economy. You know, we had a lot of very real poignant stresses this year that were affecting everybody. And because of that, you know, for a brand to come out and be like, hey, look at me, new shiny thing, you know, it could. It can feel like a welcome distraction or it can very much fall flat. So I don't know that it's a massive transformation. I think it's more just bringing into even greater focus the importance of having an incredibly clear story about the value that you're adding for people and why this business needs to exist in the world. Because I think people's sort of tolerance for empty noise is at an all time low.

Yes. What a great way to put it. Tolerance for empty noise and just empty noise in general. Here's a question for you. It can feel tricky during really challenging times, like we've had in 2020. Let's say a brand wants to put joy and delight and fun, which you say in the book, and they're such important qualities that we all crave. For my part, sometimes I feel very conflicted. If I say, oh, I want to bring joy and delight into the world, it can feel frivolous. Or let's say there's a brand that's unabashedly about luxury. How can that brand or those products even exist in a context like we're in? It could feel. I can imagine that there's a lot of tension there, and maybe some people don't care. They just don't give a shit. You know, like, all right, I'll still sell a $10,000 watch or handbag. I don't care. That's who we are. That's what we do. But it seems increasingly challenging to. I don't know, to just kind of justify those values in this context. And yet I know that we need a little bit of everything. I wouldn't want to count any of that out either.

Yeah, I mean, I definitely still think there's not only room for joy, but there's a need for joy. And, you know, I think that you can. Both of those things can coexist. Right. Like, I think that you can be empathetic and recognize that there's a ton of suffering. And by the way, the suffering that's been happening in 2020, like, yes, it's by far brought more to life through the pandemic. But it's not like there weren't those disparities before 2020. Right. It might just be the people are paying more attention. So I think that you can acknowledge that and be empathetic and be sensitive and also recognize that like, people still need ways to brighten their day and distract themselves and find those moments of connection or inspiration or creativity or just pure happiness too. Right. And that's okay. You know, I do think that luxury has definitely been tricky to navigate this year. Partly because, just like the context, it might not feel appropriate, but also because a lot of the ways in which people use luxury is like when they're going out or going to work or, you know, they want to show off their traveling great shoes. And like, maybe right now we can all invest in luxury slippers. But I think that where luxury brands have been able to succeed is by telling a clearer story around quality and not having it just be about like the flashy label and sort of showing off at your next cocktail party. And more about like, how well made is this? You know, why does it cost what it costs? You know, we just helped launch a very high end luxury performance sneaker called Corsair. And it's a very high price point, but it's not a high price point just for the sake of it. Like the materials, the craft, the story that goes into making each of these shoes. There's never been a sneaker like it before. And I think for people who get incredible amount of pleasure and fulfillment from running, like, this is the ultimate performance shoe. And there's a reason to make that extra investment for versus just like, oh, you know, what's the new it bag this year?

Yeah. And especially with gyms closed, it's like running's all they have.

Totally.

Just lace up your shoes and go outside. I'm curious, so you and your co founders started red Antler in 2007. This is a two part question. How did you come up with the name Red Antler? And you immediately were faced with another huge recession. So I'm curious just how you guys made it through that at that time. And, and then because you've really got your entrepreneurial black belt in having to navigate a recession at that time and stick through it and stay afloat as a business. And then what did you learn as a, as an owner, co founder this year of trying to just navigate. Navigate these crazy times?

Yeah. Okay, let me tell you one by one.

So when my co founder, JB and I started Red Antler, we knew from the beginning that our vision was to Partner with entrepreneurs. There was no creative services company at the time that was focused on that pre launch moment. In fact, if anything, the ethos of the time was very much the opposite of that. There were all these startups just getting going and it was the days of the lean startup, right? It was like, get out there, test your product, market fit, make sure that you actually have a viable business before you think about, quote unquote, marketing. Right? And for us, we're like, brand is different than marketing. Right? Brand is really about having that clarity around who you are from the beginning and baking it into the foundation of your business. So we wanted our primary benefit for the companies who partnered with us to be growth. We felt that brand could be a driver of business growth and that the earlier you think about the brand, the more set up you'll be to succeed and to compete. And I was on Wikipedia where I often go for naming inspiration when I need to get out of my own head and somehow stumbled on a page that antlers have the fastest growing cells in the animal kingdom. And we just loved that image. We loved that there was a visual attached. We added red to create more visual memorabilia. You sort of hear it and you could picture something and then it sticks in your mind.

That is so cool.

Thank you. I love that. We're happy with the name. Oh, and we were able to get the URL, which at the time felt like it mattered a lot. These days I think it matters less with mobile. But at the time we were like, oh, we can get the dot com.

It is such a memorable. And it almost reminds me too of that it's not a trick, but what kids play of, like think of a color in an animal, you know, or totally.

Exactly.

That game of like, it works. It's a blue elephant. Okay. Given a red antler. It's so catchy, it's so memorable. And I love knowing that about their antlers growing quickly and it being and it connecting it to founders. Oh, man. See, there's so much I want to ask you about. Did people tell you, Emily, don't go that route. They don't have any money. Startups don't know what they're doing. Like, this is just going to be a nightmare.

Oh, of course. Even our parents were like, wait, what? You want to work with startups? Why would you pick that as your target? They don't have any money. You know, it was a different time. And now obviously there's so many large established agencies who are trying to work with startups because they realize like that's where the potential and so many of these businesses are really able to disrupt very long standing categories that you never thought would see such change. But no, at the time, most people thought we were off our rockers. So. And then. Yes. And then to answer second question and to top it all off, the global financial crisis hit. And yeah, I mean, we were like, are we insane?

You know, a lot of those founders must have. Some probably killed it during that time and then probably a lot of them couldn't even stay afloat.

Well, actually, what's interest is that staring into 2008, we were like, we're screwed. We're not gonna have any client work this year. We actually started talking about like launching a couple of our own brands and even came up with some ideas because we were like, what are we gonna do? The good news was, even before we saw what would actually happen, at the time there were just two of us. So in terms of like, how are we gonna pay our staff? How are we gonna afford our overhead? Like, are we gonna have to lay people off? Like, there were none of those concerns. It was really just like, will we have enough to buy groceries? And that enabled us to be very lean, very flexible. And then what ended up happening, which we never could have predicted, is we had an unbelievably busy year. And I think a lot of the reason for that is that people who were graduating from business school that year, who typically would have gone to work at a bank or a consulting firm, couldn't get a job and decided to start their own company. So we saw a huge wave of entrepreneurship that year. And because that was our focus, it actually ended up being a very, very busy year for our business.

That is so fascinating. It's exactly what they would teach in business school of like, the downstream effects of. Okay, because of the recession, that means that B school grads aren't getting typical jobs, they're starting ups. And then boom, there you are. With Red Antler having laid the groundwork one year prior for startup founders.

Yes. And of course that was not intentional or planned. And I always feel so uncomfortable saying that, you know, this global crisis that very negatively affected so many people, like, it was great for us. You know, obviously it was, it was stressful and, you know, just a very upsetting time for everybody in society. But in terms of our business, we did a lot of really interesting projects that year and didn't have time to get around to launching the ideas that we had thought of.

Yeah. And then in 2020, I mean, what's so Interesting about the work that you do is that by definition you're working with companies that aim to disrupt things that aren't working. And that was such a huge theme of 2020 is just disrupting the old guard, revealing what's not working. Reckoning for so many brands and companies and you know, a lot of people, because business slowed down, could actually go into the basement or the attic of the business and say, oh, what needs fixing? And so I would imagine you had some brand new companies and you also had some clients this year that were saying, okay, we really need to go back to basics. And I think you talk about this in your book, that sometimes when you're not as stuck in the day to day of the business, you can actually take a step back. And I would guess in the case of some of your clients, do a rebrand.

Yes. So I will be honest that, you know, the second half of March and April were some of the most like terrifying weeks of my life. You know, we, right when the pandemic hit, we had many projects cancel, we had others push out. And I was like, this is it, you know, 13 years and it's going to be over.

Yeah. And with, with more overhead now because how, how big was your team when that was starting to happen?

No, we were, we're about 110 people. We had a very, very like in person culture which is now obviously completely shifted. And I think that some of those changes will actually be really positive. We'll be able to bring them forward, moving forward. But our culture was very much oriented around in person collaboration, both with us and our clients. You know, we've got a lot of west coast clients. I was on a plane at least once a month regularly and, and you know, I was genuinely worried that it was just gonna all go up in flames. And just like I now have sort of blocked out the stress of that time. But it was very, very, very scary. And then things stabilized. I think the initial shock wore off and people started to like sort of come back up for air. And it's exactly what you're saying, Jenny. I think that any moment of crisis is a time for innovation. And what we saw was actually people coming to us with really interesting ideas in different categories than even what we're typically known for working in. We worked with a lot of fintech companies this year, financial technology. We worked with a lot of companies in the healthcare space and the telemedicine space. I think that when society goes up in flames and we realize that all the institutions that we thought we could rely on are really ultimately not able to save us. That's a time when people start to think about, like, how do we make this better? How do we fix this? How do we prevent, you know, something like this happening in the future? So we've worked with some incredible businesses this year that will, you know, that are sort of starting to launch this fall and will continue to launch next year. And, yeah, existing clients, too. You know, it's a time of figuring out, like, okay, like, how do we survive this? How do we keep growing? How do we think differently about the value that we can offer to people?

You mentioned having over 100 employees.

Oh, I can't even imagine March and April. The only sense that I can imagine because I have a really tiny team is just all my work getting canceled as well. Because it's like, that's the thing of being tied to companies, is that everyone just immediately cut their budgets and canceled anything that wasn't mission critical because they're thinking about their overhead. So way to just pull through that time. I know what you mean about blocking it out.

Oh, my gosh.

I'm curious. Did you and your co founder, I wonder if you could have imagined that you have a team of over a hundred back in 2007, and then how do you think about growth today? Like, could you grow to a thousand? Would you even want to grow to that many? Do you. Is there a perfectly sized team for you? Or do you and your co founders kind of grow to meet the demand and you're cool with whatever size that ends up being?

So it always makes me nervous to go on record being like, we would never be a thousand because then, you know, someone, like, digs up that audio clip when we're a thousand. But it is not at all my intention at this moment to grow that big. And the reason for that is because for me, my favorite part of my job and what's most rewarding and where I get the most creative fulfillment is working with our team. I know every single person's name. You know, I know I know them like, I know their personalities. I know what they're good at. I know where they need help, and I love that part of my job. So, you know, to walk through the halls, whether those are like, zoom halls or real, and see a bunch of faces and have no idea who they are just does not appeal to me at all. I also think that there's a world in which, like, we could get to be a size so big that we can't relate to our startup clients. You know, and I think it is important that we maintain a culture that, like, vibes with the clients who we want to work with. That being said, you know, we launched a performance marketing company called Good Moose that sits in partnership with Red Antler. And we used to all share an office. And, you know, we collaborate incredibly closely together. And there's a world in which, like, you know, Good Moose grows to be 100 people and the. The red antler ecosystem is then 200 people, you know, so I could see other things like that happening, but in terms of core Red Antler, I'm imagining that the cap is not that much higher than where we currently are.

And would you then just have a longer wait list, let's say, for company? Because I'm curious how you think about making room to take on your ideal clients. And then maybe you could tell me a little bit about how your pricing or packages or just approach to your offerings has shifted. Because I think it was Adam who mentioned maybe you productized your services in a certain way. Like, just. I'm just curious how you've scaled beyond you and your co founder, probably doing a lot of the work in the beginning to how you think about pricing and packaging now.

Yeah, I mean, I think through the years, as our reputation has grown, we've obviously been able to increase prices. But it's not just about like, oh, what will the market bear? We're also doing more for our clients these days. You know, it. First of all, it just takes more to launch a brand in 2021 than it did in 2007. Right? Like, think about all different places that you need to show up. Think about social media, right? Like, it's just a much more complicated endeavor than it was back then. The competition is much greater than it was back then because the barriers keep getting lower to start a new company. So it's harder to get out there in the world and succeed and therefore takes more work on our side. And, you know, any given project, we might have 20 different people on our team touching it over the course of an engagement. Because we're not just thinking about the core identity, right? We're thinking about the digital ecosystem. We're thinking about industrial design. If it's a physical product, you know, we're thinking about how are we going to ultimately market this and make sure that it scales. So that's one thing in terms of how we think about clients and pricing. You know, we never want cost to be a barrier for the companies that we're incredibly excited to work with. And if there's a prelaunch startup who comes in the door that has a really interesting story or an amazing founder or we really believe in the mission. That's when, you know, the conversations begin and we figure out how do we get creative here and how do we make sure that, you know, we can still be compensated for the value that we're bringing to the table but that, you know, this isn't only being determined by like how much cash do you.

Have in the bank and can that sometimes translates to equity or something along those lines.

Typically with a pre launch startup it would be equity that we use to make up the difference. And I actually love that, you know, in addition to it enabling us to work with companies who wouldn't otherwise be able to afford us, I think it actually changes the relationship in an incredibly positive way. So even companies who have raised a ton of money and like could easily just sort of write a check for our full fees. We like to have a conversation about like, hey, what would it look like if our incentives were completely aligned and if we were coming to the table more as partners versus just like an external, you know, vendor that you hired.

Right. And this box to check versus I love what you said about your interests aligned and that's so creative. Just from the back end of the business of of course, if you and your team have equity in this company succeeding, it's just everybody's so invested and I don't know, I mean my experience because I'm a. Words are my thing. Like that's how I think. I think with words. I read a lot. I feel so inept when it comes to like I can talk about the brand, the feel and the personality and I've learned a lot going through brand strategy process. But it's so helpful. It's just such a crucial part of the ongoing. Just the bones of the brand and the inside and the look and feel. I just think it's so important and it's not this one time thing. I know I don't have to tell you that.

No, no, totally. I think you're 100% right. And what's interesting is that even people who have no design training who would never describe themselves as artistic or creative or visual, still know it when they see it. Like you can tell, you know, think about being on the subway when you see one of those like one off ads for a shady dentist versus you know, seeing like, you know, an incredibly well produced, interesting campaign. Like you can tell that everyone can tell the difference and that's design.

You share the story of Casper in the book, when they did the subway car takeovers, I totally remember sitting on the subway looking and trying to solve the Casper puzzles. And you talked about how it was not just about advertising the brand, it was about creating delight and adding value to New Yorkers lives. And it totally hit the mark. It was so memorable.

Well, thank you.

Yeah. Well, okay, so I work with a lot of this podcast is probably aimed toward smaller businesses than Red Antler and probably smaller even than a lot of the founders and startups that you work with. I often talk about delightfully tiny teams. You know, I say no one on my team works full time, even me. So there's a lot of smaller. I call them solo pluspreneurs that are running businesses. And I encounter some who are willing to really invest in brand and brand strategy and then others who. It just seems like such an expensive price tag. And there's companies like 99designs and these where you can just go on and like quickly and inexpensively get a logo. And I'm curious because I definitely fall on the side of investing as much as I can, when I can in brand, especially when I'm launching something new like this podcast. But how do you talk to these smaller entrepreneurs or businesses who are just so hesitant to spend the money and that don't necessarily make that connection, you know what I mean, where they just think, oh, I just, I need a logo. And that, you know, is actually so much more involved than that. And there's a reason that brand and brand strategy is priced the way that it is.

Yeah, totally. So I think, you know, there's 99 designs on one end of the spectrum and I would not recommend that to anybody.

Tell us why, because I think there's people that think, well, why not? Great, I have a lot of choice.

Yeah. So I think the reason why a solution like that does not work is because it literally is just about getting a logo. And what we always talk about and try to educate our founders on is that your brand is not your logo. Like a logo is an incredibly important expression of your brand. And an unbelievable amount of work and thinking and skill goes into creating a really powerful logo. But it has to start with strategy or it's meaningless. So it needs to come from what is the idea that this brand stands for that we want to express across all the different ways that we appear? And that level of thinking and then the level of craft that it takes to create a logo that successfully expresses that idea is really hard and takes time and an unbelievable amount of thought and Skill. And the reason why it's important, I'd say, is because we are living in an era where there is no idea that is strong enough to compete on its own. It just doesn't happen anymore. I think that there used to be a chance that you could win just based on proprietary technology or back in the very early days of the Internet, people were just excited to be on a website that did something. It was like, whoa, cool. Totally.

You know, blinking lights.

Exactly.

And then flash. Oh, God, what a nightmare for the entire Internet was.

Oh my God, totally. But it felt so exciting at the time. It was a little movie before my website loads. Totally. You know, that's just not true anymore. And in every single category, there's so much competition. And you know, another way to think about brand is just making it incredibly clear to people the moment they see you meet you, arrive on your site, whatever it is, why they should care, like, what do you stand for? How are you going to, you know, connect with their lives? Like, why should they take the time and ultimately like, take the money, you know, to engage with your business? So to me, brand has to be seen as an investment, not a cost. And I think that people never balk when it comes to spending money on like setting up their legal documents or, you know, hiring an engineer to build their product or their website. And for some reason with brand, it's always the thing that people are like, well, can I just bootstrap this or hack it together? Like, you know, find someone to do like a cheap design. And when you look at the businesses that are the runaway successes, all of them have phenomenal brands.

Absolutely. And it's also. Thank you for saying that. It's just, I love how you said brand has to be seen as an investment, not a cost.

So. Good. And what I found, I'm sure you found this working with portfolio for the publishing process.

For me, I'm working with. So Adam and Marisol co found a go together agency and I'm working with them and their team member Phil. Shout out to Phil that there's so much digging, there's so many questions they've asked me, even about this podcast that I might not have thought of or I might not. It's verbalized in my head, but I've never said it out loud to another person. I've never had to sort of justify why should people care about this show and not any of the other million podcasts that are out there? It's. It's tough work. It isn't just like, oh, let me Just choose some colors and then assign someone to design a logo. And I think people maybe don't realize how much excavation happens and how much clarification, as you said, that that's the investment. It's in that, as you said, the craft and the care does go into the design that results. But there's also so much conversation and collaboration and deep digging and differentiation that happens in that behind the scenes part of the process.

Totally. And differentiation is such an important piece of it. It's like the, the arrogance to think that a consumer is going to like take the time to really figure out why your product is superior to the others if you're not making that easy for them and like projecting the right image from the start. It's like nobody's taking the time to do that.

I love how you flip that. You can. It's like that it's arrogant to think that the consumer is going to do that. That's so, it's so true. Tell me this. So let's say someone's listening and they go, okay, I didn't realize how important brand is to my business, maybe I should invest. But there's very real constraints that entrepreneurs, founders have when it comes to their budget. So how would you counsel someone like where should, where does brand go and where in the process? Because we all know entrepreneurs and maybe you've worked with founders like this where they are ready to go all in and just throw money at the brand, but it's almost too soon. Like they haven't quite tested the ideas or maybe they're plunking down all that money before their product is actually ready or differentiated enough in and of itself. So how do you, how do you counsel people on not just how much to allocate, but when in their journey?

Yeah, I mean, I think that, you know, there's definitely an ideation phase when it's probably too early. Right. Like if you're still trying to really figure out, you know, who's my target audience. Is there a target audience? Like, you know, is this business viable? But we get involved with founders when it's literally just the founders and you know, half of our clients is our pre launch teams where it's 1, 2, 3 people who are working towards a launch date. So yes, they've figured out their business. You know, they have a business plan. They probably have an investor deck or at least the start of an investor deck. Most of the clients who work with us are planning to raise money and I think we are definitely the solution for businesses that really want to Hit a level of scale. I think that there are plenty of other businesses that are not looking to grow in the same way, which is totally fine. I think you can easily imagine an entrepreneur who wants to launch one store and that's their plan and that's going to be their life. And they still want that store to succeed. We're probably not the right solution for that. Right. It just wouldn't make sense. And I would tell them that. I'd be like, it doesn't make sense to spend the money on us for what you're trying to achieve. It's like you're almost bringing too much firepower in a way. And like it's. It would be a waste of money. And in those cases, there are so many other ways to approach this. Right. Like there are very, very small teams of two or three people that can help you create a beautiful and thoughtful identity. We've seen businesses that will hire like a collection of freelancers that have a relationship with each other. So that might be a strategist working hand in hand with an incredibly talented brand designer. And I think it's great that all those different tiers of solution exist. I think that you get something different working with us and that's why we cost what we cost. And it really ultimately has to be tied to what are your goals as a business and how big are you trying to get, how many people are you ultimately trying to reach and therefore how robust does your brand system really.

Need to be and how have you kept that level of quality and expertise as you've grown your team? I would imagine that you must invest a lot in the operations or the behind the scenes documentation and training as you bring people on, because it's not easy to keep that quality and that differentiation in terms of what you ran antler offer while growing to even a hundred, I would imagine.

Yeah, no, it's definitely not easy. And I think that probably the hardest thing is having every single person on the team understand what our standards for excellence are, what makes great work. Because it is subjective, but we have a very clear idea of is this good enough or not. So training people in that, it's difficult and it takes time. But I think that the way we've been able to do it is that our process is so incredibly collaborative that when new people come on board, they're immediately part of a team that's been working together already and that sort of understands how we think and can bring them into the fold. You know, I think it would be much, much harder if we were Sort of trying to create, like an assembly of solo practitioners, because I don't know how you'd get the one person sort of understanding what's happening with everybody else who's working on their own. But that's not the way we work. And you really do become part of this organism upon joining.

The standards for excellence is so important.

Often, I think sometimes it can feel like as the founder of a business or co founder, no one gets it the way you do, you know, so do you. Do you still see everything that goes out the door, or have you somehow imparted you and your co founder's exact standard for excellence trickling down?

So, yeah, I mean, if anyone from my team is listening, I better answer this honestly.

I'm sure you love them. I see a lot. I still do. I see a lot. And look, there's plenty I don't see. But I think that when we're talking about the foundational work, right, like the building the initial brand identity or the brand evolution, whatever it is, I'm seeing that work. But that doesn't mean that I need to, like, be in every single creative review. And I try not to be a micromanager. And I think that there's also a point that comes in everyone's career who moves from being a maker to a manager, if that's something that's interesting to people, where you have to let go a little bit, right? And you have to learn to understand that just because it's not exactly how you would have done it doesn't mean it's wrong. You know, I remember that transition for me, like, when I was the person who stopped writing the strategies and suddenly was reviewing the strategies. It took a while for me to, like, realize, okay, that's not the exact word choice I would have made, but it's actually stronger than what I would have done, you know? So, yeah, I've had to learn to let go of control. And I also am very, very lucky that we have incredible creative leadership who, frankly, I trust their instincts more than my own. Many, many times. You know, I mean, that's amazing. The, you know, the woman who runs our brand team, Jenna, and the guy who runs our strategy team, Jonah. Like, a lot of times when I'm looking at work, I'm like, well, what does Jenna think? Or what does Jonah think? Like, you know, I'm like, I don't know.

Like.

I love it. Well, that's the best when you trust them even more. And I can so relate. It's just constantly to get my hands out of all the details, it's just so tempting, I think, especially if you started out as the maker, so you have that skill set. You honed it over so many years. It's very hard not to get involved at that level. So I'm always gonna be the biggest bottleneck and the biggest one that needs to just keep getting out of the way.

Yeah. I mean, the worst is when you see the work too late and it's. You feel it's not good enough that, like, I really do try to avoid. But of course it happens sometimes, right? Like, something will get sent to me as, like, an FYI a couple hours before the meeting, and I'm like, guys, we need to talk. But that, you know, hopefully doesn't happen too much.

So as we're starting to wrap up, I can't leave this interview without asking you about studying postmodern theory at Harvard. How on earth as an undergrad. I'm just so curious. So my dad's an artist and an architect, and. And he's been teaching me about pomo for many years, and I just can't believe that you thought to study this at that early stage of your life.

I know.

Well, so. And now it's so relevant. We have, like, postmodern society. Like, I know everything is postmodern. So what. This is so fascinating to me.

So my actual major was called social studies, which I rarely tell people because it sounds like I studied maps and capitals.

Now that sounds like a startup.

I know.

High school history made cool.

Exactly. So. But what was very cool about social studies is that it was incredibly multidisciplinary, and you could really form your own track within it. So in the beginning, it's all about the history of thought, really. Like, that's the sort of introduction to the major where you're learning about, you know, political theory and social theory and how it evolved over, you know, the centuries. And I was fascinated by postmodernism, particularly through the lens of consumer culture. You know, I think that sort of the idea of subjectivity, not to get too intellectual.

I love it.

Go all the way.

Oh, God, this is not going to reveal myself as a real nerd and sort of, you know, tearing down structures in order to repurpose them. I think that's actually happening all the time in marketing, and particularly when I was in school, late 90s, early 2000s, there was this subversive tone to a lot of the marketing that was happening where it was almost about breaking down the fourth wall and acknowledging, hey, consumer, we know that, you know, that this is an ad that's trying to sell you something. Right. And I was fascinated by that and that, you know, I mean, vast oversimplification, but, like, that is postmodernism at work.

That is the most interesting Venn diagram of your. You connecting postmodern theory and postmodernism as it relates to marketing and brand. And then what you do now, it's like, it's just so interesting. And then working with these disruptive companies as your pick of your target client, you know, it's just.

Well, something I realized the other day because I was on a call with someone who was like, railing against postmodernism, and I was like, what is he? I didn't really understand what he was talking about. I think he meant that he was railing against sort of the idea that everything is subjective. But what I realized is that user centric design, meaning sort of like thinking about who your audience is as you're designing a couch or a website, that's postmodernism. That is the acknowledgement that, like, the viewer has an effect on what they're viewing, you know, And I didn't get into the argument with him on the call, but afterward I was like, oh, the very idea of sort of thinking about different user flows and how, you know, a digital experience adapts to who's experiencing it is postmodernism at work.

Yes. That's so interesting. Well, I mean, you worked on Prose Shampoo, which I have, so your brand strategy worked because I bought it before I read your book. But there again, it's like shampoo. You take a 25 question survey to get your custom shampoo with your name printed on it. It's like Pomo shampoo.

Exactly. There's no, like, objective. This is what shampoo is.

Right.

So anticipating.

That's so interesting. And it's like the art world, too. How not every artist would say this, but how some will say the art is interpreted by the viewer, that the artist only creates half the vision, and then it's the experience of the viewer that completes that artistic vision. Or that might even. This is so, you know, radical to say, but, like, that might even know the piece more than the artist because they're the one reading it, or the reader of a book even.

Totally. And that's what's happening with brands today. Right? Think about it. You put something out on Instagram, but it's the comments that influence how the post is received, for better and for worse. Yeah, totally.

Oh, my gosh. Well, Emily, this has been so much fun. Thank you. For sharing all of your insights and wisdom. Where can people find you if they want to keep in touch?

So I am on Instagram just emilyheyward and then obviously Red Antler has its own social presence as well, so that's the best place to find me. I'm not on Twitter as we discussed at the beginning.

And Good Moose. What a great name.

Oh my gosh. Credit does not go to me. See, back to my team being better at this than I am.

Do people now just buy you moose? Like stuffed animal mooses? Do you have a collection in your house?

I hope that people are buying the CEO of Good Moose Stuffed Animal Moose is on a regular basis.

Yes, we'll direct those elsewhere. Emily, thank you so so much. Thank you.

Have a great day.

You too. Thanks everyone for listening. If you've listened this far, you get a gold star. Thank you. Word of mouth is the most joyful way we can grow this show and it helps us land interviews with the luminaries and insightful guests that you would most love to hear from. Please send this episode to a friend who might find it helpful, and for show notes and related links from this episode, visit itsfreetime.com while you're there, make sure you're subscribed to the Time well Spent newsletter. You'll get instant access to my Tech Toolkit, a continually updated list of all the software I use, along with the total monthly spend to run my business where no one works full time even me. Visit it's freetime.com join remember, you are running the show. It's time for radical reimagining and everything is up for grabs. Let it be easy, let it be fun, and build with love.