013: Self-Employed Ecosystem with Jeffrey Shaw

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This is your time. How can we earn twice as much in half the time with joy and ease while serving the highest good? That is our guiding question here at the Freetime Cafe, your home for heart based business. I'm your host Jenny Blake. Join me for conversations with authors, friends and fellow business owners as we explore ways to free your mind, time, time and team to do your best work. Now onto today's show.

Hello my friends. I am so excited to be here in conversation today with my friend Jeffrey Shaw. Jeffrey is a TEDx speaker. He's the host of the self Employed Life podcast with over a million downloads, the author of his first book discover your ideal customer secret language and make your business irresistible. And today we're here talking about his latest book and business pivot into really all in on the self employed life business and personal development strategies that create sustainable success. Welcome to the show Danny.

I'm so excited to be here and chat with you today. Thank you.

I as I've been making my own pivot and really going into this heart based business arena. One thing that I found is that nobody has a consistent name for what they want to call themselves. Like not only is there not consistency on self employed small business owner, entrepreneur, founder, people don't or solopreneur that not only is there not agreement like if I have a room of 50 self employed lifers they they themselves don't even resonate myself included with any one term. So I just want to start with you landing on this phrase self employed and the self employed life. What is it that resonates with you about that nomenclature?

Oh my gosh. I love that you're asking this because it's really like I feel like it's part of the mission of my life in the book is to to help self employed business owners take ownership of the term employed and be proud of it. So the reason it's important actually my book starts off with actually breaking down all these different terms how it started for me. Honestly Jenny, which is the crazy thing as I was redoing my website last year after after taking ownership of this idea that I was going to be all in on self employed business owners. My book was coming out the Self Employed Life. I rebranded my podcast last fall to the self employed. So I was all in. So I hired a keyword, someone to do keyword research only for her to discover that nobody else is using the term self employed. Like it's not Google friendly. Everybody and what they are using tends to be small business. Then I started asking people like taking polls and it's true, people that are in business for themselves do not use the term self employed. So then I started breaking down all the different terms which I said, it's how I start off the book. And I think they each, you know, whether you refer to yourself with here's the danger of calling yourself a small business is that you are likely to be very disappointed at some points that you are too small to be considered small business. Right? Because small business is up to 500 employees.

It's not so crazy. I know it's crazy.

Like it's not, it's not our world, right? But then there's solopreneur, like, hey, I get it, you're the one, you're a business of one. But here's the problem. I feel energetically with solopreneurs, please don't go about life solo. Please don't see yourself as in this alone, because you're not, right? So that I feel is an energetic problem. Solopreneurs. I landed on self employment because I think it's the best term to describe our lifestyle, our mindset. And it's a business model. And that's the problem with entrepreneur, for example. Entrepreneur. I actually like the term. We embrace it. It's got a, you know, certain grit to it. We like it. The problem is that it's not representative of a business, a business model, which means, you know, it could mean you're in between jobs, you know, to say I'm an entrepreneur, it now I think has a little bit of a feeling of are you doing anything?

I feel like there's also with entrepreneur and founder, of course, there's a connotation that you are someone who's going to seek funding. And I'm going to tell you, I'm going to be honest. I had a friend say to me the other day, listen, entrepreneurs are trying to build something bigger than themselves. They care about the mission of the business and they, they want to make that mission a success and almost that their personal preferences are irrelevant. And he's like, what most people are who think they're Entrepreneurs is self employed. And I kind of felt bad in that moment. And I know this isn't a psycho, you know, a therapy session for me, but the way he said it was like most people are actually self employed and they're designing a lifestyle business. They're getting enough revenue to meet their needs, even if it's abundant needs, and that's that. Do you think there's still a little bit of a stigma of having what Tim Ferriss initially coined as a lifestyle business, even though there shouldn't be, and I know you're advocating for there not.

To be, There shouldn't be. I mean, here's the thing. I actually had the hardest conversation I ever had in my six and a half years on a podcast was with a very well known author. Maybe it's just, I'm not going to drop names, it just doesn't seem important. Who wrote a classic business book, who on the podcast said, you know, the problem is he defined self employed as people who just made a job for themselves. And a lifestyle entrepreneur is just that, like somebody who just made a job for themselves. I wasn't quick enough on my feet. But Jenny, here's how I feel about that. And your question, what could be more noble than making a job for yourself? Not taking advantage of, you know, government programs, not that, hey, if you need it, you need it, but to actually step up and say I'm going to make a job for myself so that I can provide for myself, my family, maybe elderly family members, whoever it is that you're taking care of. You know, right now, as we stand, our country has the highest unemployment rate since the Great Depression. The fact of the matter is more people will be turning to self employment than ever in history because of that. And predictions are by 2030, I think 50% of the population will be self employed. What is the shame in people stepping up, starting a business for themselves, even if it minimally provides a lifestyle for themselves so that they can live independently. I actually don't think there's anything more noble. And again, I just go back to why shouldn't we be proud to say we're self employed?

I completely agree. And I also think that venerating the burnout culture that if you know, and not just the. So I heard this anecdote. You and I have both been experimenting in clubhouse. I heard this anecdote and a guy said he works with France franchise owners and he said the happiest people he ever meets in his career own septic tank businesses literally removing waste. These are the happiest business owners he knows and consistently the most miserable people he ever crosses paths with are Fortune 500 CEOs that they're burnt out, they're on the road, they have time away from their family, they're carrying so much on their shoulders. And so for me it's also, why shouldn't everybody at every level of every size organization have a lifestyle, career? Like, why should anybody be miserable and then creating a chain of misery in their wake? That just doesn't make sense to me. And yet it's so, so much a part of our culture.

Yeah, it's. I, you know, I, I actually find there's a lot I like about clubhouse. And of course it's also become, it's kind of magnified, I think this problem a lot because there's a lot of real, you know, hustle attitude. But again, I don't think it has anything to do with the platform. I just don't think it's anything any different than any other thing in life. Like we need to decide what rooms metaphorically and literally we want to go into. So if that's, those aren't your people, then don't hang out there. I don't think it's necessary to bash the platform, which we're also seeing a lot of. I think it's a lot of good there. And I, I run a room and I enjoy my experiences there. And as I said, it has, it has put in front of me a lot more occasions where there's still a really. I consider it kind of an old fashioned. I actually think it's an outdated perspective. I was in a room, were a very respected elderly gentleman. I mean, it's gotta be probably in his 60s. I mean, I'm in my 50s. But he's older, I think he was older than I am. And he was talking about how you need to hustle so much that if you're making, if you're making less than $50,000 a month, you shouldn't own a TV because it's taking up too much of your time. And Jenny, all I could, I just wanted to cringe because I think about all. How does that make people feel, right? How does it, what's the emotional impact on people hearing that? Because it's not realistic. Because hey, if that's your goal and you want to push everything else aside to meet that goal, then more power to you. But that's, you know, if your goal is to have a life or you have a personal life and you have time for pleasure and family and relationships, then you're balancing a lot more than just, you know, needing to hustle to make 50 grand a month. Yeah, I think it's, it's. I find it really kind of interesting right now because we have two sides of very severe coins on one hand. This big hustle attitude. And like you, I'm also, I surround myself and have as guests my podcast, a lot of people who talk about self care. So then we feel torn. Like, am I supposed to be that person, right, who finds the time to, you know, for a good, you know, hour and a half morning routine? Or am I supposed to be the person that shouldn't have a TV because you're not working hard enough? You know, at the end of the day, you got to, you have to decide your own. I don't even want to use the. I'm always hesitant to use the word balance because I don't really believe the idea of a work life balance or a balanced lifestyle. To me, a balanced lifestyle is an empowered lifestyle. It's when you are empowered with your choices and you don't feel like choices are made for you. And that to me is the root of the reason to be self employed.

I'm so with you that it's really about choice. It's that if you're empowered, if you have choice about how you spend your time and what you work on, to me that's freedom. It's not the number of hours that we're working. I love the time I watch tv. I genuinely love it. I get inspiration. I watch some business shows like Shark Tank, some shows my husband and I watch in French or in Arabic. So I'm learning all the time from tv, you know, I mean, I'm not watching all day. I'm watching an hour or two a day, but I don't feel the need to be like grinding or reading.

No, I mean, I agree. I mean, if you don't take some time off, like I said, I'm always, I'm way out of the. I just, I just got Netflix like a month, month ago because I was, I felt so out of the loop of everybody talk about Netflix, but I just don't watch enough tv. But yeah, I'm with you. Like, you know, a silly and I, I like, you know, Ellen's Game of Games. Like, I like, I watch the shows that are just so light. But that's the point, you know, I want to watch those shows that are so light that it takes me somewhere else. So I just, you know, I am a big believer in just empowered choice. Anytime I've been asked about how I make business decisions. I will always say every business decisions I've made I have made throughout my six years has been based on how I wanted to live my life, where I live, how I live, how much I work. First choice is how do I want to live at that time. And you know, and I'll be transparent, Jenny. I mean I work more now than I did probably 10, 15 years ago. But the reason is, is my, my three kids are, are independent out on their own. Right. So I now am empowered with the choice to work more and do work that is actually more fulfilling to me that I really feel like can make an impact on the world. So yeah, more now but it's by choice. It's not as though I ha. You know I, I am forced to.

Let's go back to this idea of solopreneur versus self employed. And I love what you said that you don't have to go this alone. There can be a whole interlocking ecosystem. I'm curious how you currently set up your team and your time. So I often say in my business nobody works full time even me. So it never, it didn't make sense to me or it hasn't up till now in 10 years to hire anyone full time because I don't work full time hours. And I know you talk in your new book about systems but I love creating so much efficiency that none of us are really working full time. I'm curious how you think about your team and even who's currently on your team. Do you have anyone full time and do you think that within the umbrella of self employed life is there a certain most common team size like you know what I just described as myself is a non employer business and that I've maybe myself, I'm the only one on payroll. How do you set things up?

Yeah, it's gosh. And because I had, you know my photography business and I still have, I just do very little of it. But back in the day when I had a, you know, downtown gallery and I would have four to five employees, usually one to two full time. It just, it's so different now. So no, I don't have anybody full time and I love that you're asking this question in part because I will be. I have to admit this is my weakness. Like I, I need, I need to be better at building out my team because I could use more support. I tend to be, I am ridiculously efficient. I just, I'm really organized. I put everything into buckets. I Have very specific times on my calendar that I do certain things. I tend to, yeah, it's, it's a three to four shift day because I, I get up early and I start my day off by reading and I have my own morning routine, you know, which involves my morning practices of journaling and such. You know, then I do calls from 10 to 3 and then from 3 to 6 I do content building and then I walk my dog for an hour and a half and then I come back and I always call like there's always like this, you know, fourth shift work to do, which is kind of light stuff I can do perhaps sitting in front of the tv, but so I'm very bucketed and that makes me very efficient. As far as my team, it is entirely for. I don't even know what to do. You. Now that you're asking the question, I'm thinking I don't even know what I would do with a full time person. Like I work at home. Having a full time virtual person seems odd.

And yet I'm not comfortable. I don't want to work with somebody side by side in my home. So my team is entirely virtual. They are very, they have very specific tasks. So for example, I have a podcast team of which there are three of them on that team and they have, you know, very specific jobs, you know, the editor, my producer and show notes. So there's three people on the podcast team that have very specific jobs. I reach out for freelancers a lot. I use a lot of different graphic designers. The piece of the team that I will admit that I am missing is the, that kind of right hand virtual assistant, the one person that is more consistent so that sort of like the contractor for the subcontractors. And right now I play the contractor role for all the subcontractors. And I know I shouldn't and I know that when I really step back and study my business and what, how do I go to the next level? It's becoming, and this is a recent awareness for me when I look at, you know, what prevents any of us from going to our next level. It is often scalable. In order to be scalable, it is often a lack of support and, and it's just really kind of come to my awareness that that is my, that's my Achilles heel right now in my business as to why it's not scaling to the next level is I need to, I need to break down and take and break down because it's, it's a matter of I think committing to the mindset and then doing the work to set that person up. But I will admit that's the part that's missing on my team is that more consistent, virtual. It'll be a virtual person, but kind of my ea, my executive assistant on an ongoing basis that is the contractor to all the subcontractors because there's a lot of things I shouldn't be doing.

Thank you for your transparency and I just so appreciate hearing where you're at right now with this because I think so many people can relate and especially when you're coming from the self employed life perspective, it is so tempting. I had a business mentor say to me, as a mentor said to him, that's why we don't even know who originally came up with this, that your area of greatest strength is probably your business's biggest weakness. So for example, if you and I both are like really efficient and we like getting things done, it might mean that our business systems in that area aren't as developed. Or if you're really good with working with the podcast team, you might not have a person in place who's doing that because you're handling it. And it is such a tricky balance where we have these what I call delightfully tiny teams of the self employed life. But I do think it, sometimes it makes it a little harder to bring someone new in because it's not the default. Whereas I know people, especially the people who I know who don't start ideapreneurship businesses like where their heart and ideas aren't central to the business, they seem to have far less trouble delegating parts of it. It's just a pattern I've noticed.

Yeah, no, it's true. I think, you know, it's almost as you're explaining that I think what happens is we build, you know, we're so much a part of our business when we're self employed and then we kind of build almost from the bottom up. You know, that's why I have a lot of people, a lot of independents that do very specific tasks. And it's that middle, it's that, like I said, it's the contractor to the subcontractors is that middle person. So it's almost like we're building from both sides. You know, we as the business owner and the leader of our businesses are building from the top. You know, we're the idea generator. We're, we're putting, creating the systems and then we're hiring on the, the far end of people who can do the specific tasks. And I Think what gets lost is the need to have that person in the middle.

And I know there's a book called Rocket Fuel where they talk about the visionary role. That's you. And then the integrator, or what you're calling it, the contractor for the subcontractors. And I do, I can see as you're describing it, because I have something, I have kind of a hybrid of these, but I notice that when I can, it's just like, isn't this a constant game? I know there's a section in your book on creating space and you say, strive to be bored, but isn't it this constant game of trying to say, like, I don't want to be the bottleneck, don't let me be the bottleneck, you know, and. And I can totally see how bringing on, in your case and in mine, of course, like someone that you really trust to manage all the moving parts. Because when you don't have any full time employees, as you're describing. Yeah. You have a podcast team and I saw that you worked with Paige 2 on the book. So you are still interfacing with many other teams of people. It's not like you're going it alone. As you said, in terms of the word solopreneur, you're interfacing with a lot of different people. So that really is a role in itself in your business.

It is. And I do love. And I'm glad you brought the idea of, you know, one of the systems I talk about in my book is this idea of making space and striving to be bored because we so often fill up the space. And the parallel I make in the book is in the story I tell around that idea is that as a kid, a little kid I used to at the beach, I would love to dig a hole in the sand. And then I would dig a trench from the lake, the side of the lake, lake to the hole. And I, for whatever reason, as a little kid, I just found it so fascinating to watch how the water, a wave would come in and it was a lake, so there were small little waves, but these waves would come in and kind of travel up the trench and then fill up this, this hole, this reservoir that I had made. And it's kind of that idea, like what I have Learned over my 36 years in business is that, is that we have to make space for what we want. You know, as a coach, I cannot tell you how many times I've had conversations with people who come to me for more business and the way they Behave is they don't have time for more business. And I always had to point out the irony of that. It's like you've hired me to take your business to the next level and yet pretty much everything you're saying is that you don't have time for anything else. So we have to make space. We have to figure out how can we strive to be bored, what can you, what can you delegate, what can you automate? But where can you, you know, whether it's delegating or automating or just get deciding that you don't need to do that so that you can create space. Because what I know for certain is that when we create space, something better is going to come along to fill it. You know, I love in business making parallels to personal lives and how often, you know, somebody's not happy in a relationship, but they stay in the relationship thinking somehow this dream person is going to come along. I'm like, no, you have to commit to the difficulty of making the space for that right person to come along. And it's true in business as well. So we have to constantly look for where we can make that space, strive to be bored and invite something, invite our next level to come in.

I love that you brought up the relationship analogy because that brings to mind another. You and I are both big on the energetic side of business and client attraction and not from the perspective of, oh, you can manifest whatever you want. But you even say in your book, it's like if your energy is tied up, wasting time. You said too many businesses waste way too much time trying to satisfy customers who will never be satisfied. Non ideal customers take up space, energy and time. To me, it's, it, it's exactly what you said, that if, if our energy is tied up with non ideal clients, we don't have the space. It's like trying to have the, trying to attract the perfect mate while your energy is completely locked up with something that just isn't working or isn't working anymore. And, and yet it is a little bit counterintuitive to think about freeing on that time first and as you say, even striving to be bored.

Yeah, I think it's, it's a hard. In my, my previous book lingo was entirely about it's a brand messaging strategy to attract your ideal customers. And it's a hard commitment for people to make. But I'll tell you what, make the commitment from day one or at any point in your business, this is a, it's always a good time to stop and reassess and make a commitment that you're only going to work with your ideal customers because it will in the, in the long run, but not the so long run, it will exponentially grow your business. The worst loop that people get stuck in in business is they think that some business is better than no business. But it's not at the sacrifice of the time that it's filling up. It's not if you're working with non ideal. Literally so many businesses waste a tremendous amount of time trying to satisfy people that will never be satisfied. And I've actually looked at the root of it and you know, there's that common, the Pareto principle, really common in business. 80% of your income comes from 20% of your customers. You know, if you look at certain mathematics, there might be some truth to that. But philosophically and energetically, what that's saying is that you're wasting your time at 8 on 8 out of 10 customers. That's ridiculous.

Ooh, I love this perspective.

Yeah, it's just ridiculous. And so many, I don't know why we've just bought into this and, and I will tell you, Jenny, and the reason I'm, I feel so strongly about this is because this is a decision I made at 23 years old when I was starting my photography business, that I was only going to work with the best of the best clients. And I leave it open as to what one defines as your best clients. Yes, it is certainly your most profitable clients. But I'll tell you what, very high on my list of what makes somebody an ideal client is that they're easy to work with because the ease allows you to get through working with them quicker, which means you can then go on to the next client. And that is the energetic benefit of working with it. And I also, when you're working with your ideal customers, they are equally committed to creating value. So all the weight of creating value isn't on your shoulders. So when you have a partner as a client who is collaborating with you to get the best results, it makes your job easier. And then of course, you get the best results, which means it's more likely they're going to stay a customer, repeat customer, which means it's more likely you're going to tell other people. It just there's such exponential growth to only working with your ideal customers that, you know, Instead of the 80, 20 rule, literally 80% of your customers should be your dream customers. Those that are the most profitable, easiest to work with and enable your entire business to do their Best work. That's how a business grows quickly.

I love that. We'll be right back just after this.

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And it's so true what you said. I find that whether I'm working with fellow self employed person or a big company that my ideal clients, my best clients, I look forward to getting on the phone with them. And by the time I hang up and I don't even in general in my life, I'd rather be reading a book than on the phone. I love podcast interviews too, but I mean if given the choice, I'm not talking on the phone. And yet for those clients and those interactions, I leave more energized than when I came. And then even if you have, if I have an energy neutral client or certainly an energy draining one, there's more anticipation leading up to the call, there's a little bit of nerves. Then I feel sort of more drained when I hang up. It's like there is a really a cost to 100% not paying attention. And I love how you flipped the 8020 here.

Yeah. I tell you the thing I'm most excited about in my new book the Self Employed Life is this concept of hug marketing. And I was really excited that amongst the advanced readers this got by far the most attention. And if I may, I'll summarize it real quickly. So the idea of hug marketing is my take on what is typically a marketing funnel. Now I get the idea of a marketing funnel. I get that, you know, it's to take one per, you know, take someone from one place to another and become a client. But the problem is I think funnel has a horrible energy to it. You know, it kind of has this, if you look at about it in the shape of a funnel, it's you know, we're wide open and loving at the top and in our goal is to squeeze people through a small hole at the bottom. I just think energetically it's always had this really awful feeling.

I totally agree. Not to mention just this like cold hard idea of a funnel funnel. It's just cold leads, like even calling oh cold leads and get them into your Funnel, like, the whole thing is.

Our target market to begin with. Like, I mean, it's literally marketing is just wrath with horrible terms, which, to me, are representative of the energy behind marketing. Right? There has been this creepy energy behind marketing, and all the terms, you know, imply that they're our target audience and we're gonna, you know, squeeze them through a funnel. We're gonna market at people. And it's that. That's always been my goal, to kind of flip a lot of these terminologies and so up with this idea of hug marketing, which, instead of a funnel, the diagram of it is a series of concentric circles. And this also has been so much more representative for me as to how to get my head around being in business today. Because, you know, social media is a part of business, and there's a lot of things that are a part of. Of getting the word out there about what we do that don't seem to have, you know, direct roi. And so I started looking at his circles. And the outermost circle, there's a series, usually six circles, depending on the business cell. But the outermost circle, what I call lurkers, right, they are your social media followers. You don't know them by name. They're just out there following you. But you've built a presence online such that people are noticing you. And they're your father, your podcast listeners, you know, they're. I don't know. I'm sure you've had the same experience. People reach out to me for coaching, and they're like, oh, I've been listening to your podcast for four years. I had no idea they were there, right? I didn't know them by name, but they were lurking. And. But I call it hug marketing because the goal is to get to a hug, which is the. The center, the outside of that center area, the ring out. So the circle outside of the center is when someone becomes a client. But I wanted to take it a step further, right? So they go from, you know, being a lurker to being curious to being engaged, to being connected, to being a customer. But you're not done there. The next level is a hugger. And the difference is that my goal is not to just acquire customers, but build relationships with customers such that if and when I were to meet them in person, we would undoubtedly hug, because it's been the relationships become that significant. And your huggers are your best advocates. They are likely your repeat customers. So to me, there's that. It's one thing to get to gain a customer, to acquire A customer. It's another thing to make your goal that one step further so that you have a relationship with your customers, that you would hug them when you met them.

That is such a sweet image to have in mind. I just love that. I love that. I want to ask you about the self publishing process and in particular this anecdote you share at the back of the book. Your editor, A.J. harper, she gave you a piece of homework and it was to write the worst possible review of this book and you even included it in the book. Now I do this exercise too, because I think any author knows we're constantly writing our worst review as we're writing. Like the worst review is popping out repeatedly during the writing process. So tell me, what was that like having to write the worst possible review of the book and how'd you decide to include it in this one?

Yeah, it's. And it's one of those moments I decide to include it and, you know, I definitely have my moments of thinking this might be the dumbest thing. I might be actually fueling the fire. So. Yeah. So A.J. a.J. Harper was the editor of my first book Lingo when I self published. My new book is with Page two, and I'm working with a wonderful editor on their publishing team, Amanda Lewis. So. But AJ is just had through, you know, working together on my first book is just such a valuable friend. She also was my co writer on my TEDx talk because when it came down to, I'm like, nobody, hardly anybody in the world knows me better than her. So we needed to do the TEDx talk together. So I wound up doing a writing workshop with her while I was writing the Self Employed Life. And she gave us this exercise to write the worst possible review. And it was a group workshop. So then when we reconnected on Zoom, we read our reviews and the feedback from the group was that I had way too much fun writing this really nasty review which ends with something along the lines of, your money is better spent on an enema. So that gives you an idea as to how ripping this review is.

But the point is I've had that same reviewer, must be hanging out in my book.

So the reason I, you know, the point of the exercise is there's a couple points. I mean, I think on the surface, the point of the exercise is to then make sure that in the content of the book you address those things that you're most worried about. But for me, it was a way of cleansing my insecurities and stepping into being more of who I am and that's why I decided to include it. I included it because I was airing my insecurities. And my biggest insecurity about being an author is that I don't have any education beyond high school. I didn't grow up in an environment where going to college was a choice. I grew up lower middle class in a small country town. It was never mentioned. I have two older brothers, neither of them went to university. You know, I always joked, I think my parents forgot that I lived at home from the age of 14 on. I was the youngest of three boys and I was always, I was always independent. And I think they forgot I still live there so. Because I was very much on my own and making my own decisions and you know, I had this skill, this talent of being a photographer, but I didn't know what to do with it. So I was the classic. Took a year off after high school to figure out what am I going to do. I always knew I'd be self employed, quite honestly because I imagined I was completely unemployable because I didn't have an education. I was terribly shy at that point in my life. I just figured I better, I better figure out how to live my life on my own and be self employed because I did not see myself, I had such low self esteem, honestly Jenny, I did not see myself as being employable. So I didn't go to school, I didn't go to university, I didn't go to college, I went to a trade school to, for a 10 month program but to being a photographer. So that's always been a source of insecurity for me that, you know, who am I to write a book? I also am not someone that I don't enjoy.

I don't enjoy research, I don't enjoy being a brainiac about things. Where I thrive is in the realm of life around observation. Which is why I love being a photographer. I'm a masterful observer. I observe, I can sense, I live my life on energy and intuition and I choose how to photograph people because I can sense, you know, and I always, always loved how I would meet a family, you know, the first time and photograph them. And how often, if not always, people would say wow, that is exactly us, right? How do you do that except by, by intuition, understanding the relationship between the family members. So I thrive in that space. And yet it's also my greatest insecurity. So this, this horrible review I wrote would be somebody discounting any value in observation and intuition that you know, there's nothing scientific based about this book is a bunch of, you know, kumbaya. So that's kind of the nature of the review is like it's ripping the idea that you are nothing if it's not of the intellect and you are nothing if it's not research based. And you know what, Jenny? There are plenty of people that actually act like that, particularly in the speaking world. There are a lot of speakers that are just like, you're either, you know, super intellect or you're, you shouldn't be on stage. And it is, it's a source of insecurity for me. But I stick to who I am. I stick to the fact that, I'm sorry, I've been in the trenches being self employed since I was 14 years old. If I don't know a thing about instinct and gut and grit and I mean, who's going to learn it? Like, you know, we know how to, we bootstrap, we get by. I still, I will. I am a proponent of education. I saw too that my kids got an education, but honestly, they got an education because I wanted them to have the experience. I didn't really care what they did with their degrees or what degree they chose. I just wanted them to have the experience.

Maybe in part because I didn't, but that's the root of that exercise was for me. It just really aired my insecurities and I was willing to do it.

It's so freeing, it's so freeing to hear you and just give them a voice. And then you hit publish anyway. And it's like as I hear you talking and I know it's always easier when someone's on the outside, but I'm thinking, of course you're the perfect person to write this and oh, there are so many boring business books that are just weighed down by the data and the research.

And it's such a relief to hear you orient around observation, energy and intuition and how you've woven in that, that work history since you're 14, but also your observation skills as a photographer. And it's really special. I actually, I'm so grateful that you shared that, that path with us and even where you came from with your insecurities. But the flip side of that being how intuitive you are, it's so empowering and it, it's, I think for all of us who are listening, it gives all of us permission not to be perfect as well, to say you can tackle something in your own way and it's even more valuable.

Yeah. Yeah. I, I just, I'm not sure, you know, I don't, I don't discount degrees or MBAs. I just not sure how much it really would have done for me compared to what you learned to figure out.

Right. And that, and that's what you say. It's like you've been in the trenches figuring it out and that so much of the self employed life is doing exactly that. It's just figuring it out every single day and then having the confidence in yourself that I can figure it out even if we don't have the answers.

Yeah. Even if you just look at like what makes something marketable. Whenever I'm working with my clients, I always say I'm looking to help them. I'm looking to figure out what is the intersection between what's meaningful to them and what's marketable in the world. And when I look at like the idea of what's marketable, it has so much less to do with what you think is marketable and what you want to push out into the world. If you really want to be successful, pay attention to what does the world want right now? What does the world need right now? I'm always profoundly moved because of my podcast. I read two books a week and I am profoundly moved how often? And I'll bet as an avid reader yourself, you have the same experience, but you read a book and you think this is exactly what the world needs right now. And I just find that incredible. And you know, honestly, I feel that way about this book. I've been saying to page two my publishers, like, I think there's a little bit of divine timing in here. And I will be the first one to say I've always felt like my timing and most everything in life is off. I've always, I'm never an early adopter of technology. I always sit back and see where it's going. I never bought the newest cameras. I always let everybody else test it for a couple years and then I would buy it. I'm a horrible investor. I always miss the market. I'm always selling, I'm always selling a house when the, you know, the wrong time, always. So I've never seen myself as a good timing. But then here I, I set out and you know, end of 2019, early 2020, to write this book about being self employed. Little do I know a pandemic is coming that's going to cause the greatest unemployment rate since the Great Depression. And this is where I feel like, wow, there's a divine timing to this. I feel, I literally feel like we are releasing a book exactly when the world needs it. Because I wrote it for people that were currently self employed and feeling like I wanted to give them what I felt they really needed was which was lacking, you know, I mean, one of the core problems being self employed is that we run around trying to get everything we need from different sources. Coaches for our mindsets, we go to conferences for trainings, we hire gurus for skill sets and we run around trying to get everything we need and then we're accused of being all over the place, if not by others, by ourselves. It's how we feel about ourselves. So I wanted to write a book that actually brought everything together in what I call the self employed ecosystem. Everything you need in one place. I set out to write this book for people who are currently in business and realized the divine timing of it is that there are going to be millions of people that are going to be turning to self employment to get their lives back on track.

It's definitely divine timing. Last question before we wrap up. If you could give those who are currently living the self employed life permission to do or even drop something or shift their thinking, what would you give them permission to do?

I love that you're asking this because it took me years to figure out when I would walk off stages as a speaker. Almost always the first thing people would come up to me and say is thank you. I feel like you gave me permission and I had no idea, Jenny, what they were talking about. I was like, what did I give you permission to do? And what I finally came to realize in so many ways I was giving them permission to just do business in a way that actually feels good. So many self employed people, we are creeped out by the way marketing has been done, the way business is done. So the number one permission I give you is to do business in a way that doesn't creep you out. Do business in a way because here's the good news. Talk about what's marketable in the world. There is so much evidence and we see it around us. People are choosing who to do business with because how they feel about that business more than ever before, not from their brain, not from. Not from a logical sense. What I always say is that nowadays you don't get hired because you're the best at what you do. You get hired because people feel like they get you and that you get them. They have an energetic quality to the relationship. At the soccer, you may not be the best at what you do, whatever that means. So live in a time when consumers and your customers are looking to make decisions from an energetic place. The best thing you can do is and embrace his permission is to do business in a way that really feels heart centered, purpose driven and right for you. Not what research has proven that you know is effective, but what feels right to you.

Beautifully said Jeffrey. Thank you so much listeners. Make sure you check out the Self Employed Life business and personal development strategies that create sustainable success. That's Jeffrey's latest book book and of course his podcast the Self Employed Life. Jeffrey, anywhere else you want to send people if they want to get in touch?

Well, assuming your audience is largely self employed, you can I've actually created an assessment tool because my whole principle here is the self employed ecosystem. I want people to have a sense of, you know, where their strengths lie, where their weaknesses lie, and how they can have a healthy and thriving self employed ecosystem. So you can go to Self Employed Assessment again, that's self employed assessment.com and take this assessment tool and it's I think really going to be helpful to set you on the way of seeing what you can do to have a healthy ecosystem to your business.

Awesome. Thank you. I'll make sure to put that in the show notes. Thank you for listening everybody. And Jeffrey, thank you again for being here and for the divine timing of this new book.

That's my pleasure. It's always nice to be with you.

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