021: Navigating Business Model Redesign With Jo-Na Williams

With Venmo Stash a taco in one hand and ordering a ride in the other means you're stacking cash back. Nice. Get up to 5% cash back with Venmo Stash on your favorite brands when you pay with your Venmo debit card. From takeout to ride shares, entertainment and more, pick a bundle with your go tos and start earning cash back at those brands. Earn more cash when you do more with Stash. Venmo Stash terms and exclusions apply. Max $100 cash back per month. See Terms at Venmo Me Stash Terms.

This is your time. How can we earn twice as much in half the time with joy and ease while serving the highest good? That is our guiding question here at the Freetime Cafe, your home for heart based business. I'm your host Jenny Blake. Join me for conversations with authors, friends and fellow business owners as we explore ways to free your mind, time and team to do your best work. Now onto today's show.

Hello my friends. I am delighted to be here today with Jonae Williams. She is one of these just brilliant, bright, beautiful people in my life. I happened to meet her through Dori Clark, the ultimate connector, many, many years ago. Jonae's career began in entertainment 23 years ago as a background vocalist and songwriter and and it took kind of a surprising turn when she wasn't credited or compensated for her work. So she committed her life to educating and protecting entrepreneurs through her work as a lawyer, a coach, a teacher, business advisor on entrepreneurship. And now she has pivoted and she's living in New Orleans teaching yoga and doing some additional work as a spiritual counselor, which I'm really excited to get into. So Jonae, welcome to the show.

Thank you. It's so awesome to be here. Thank you so much.

What I have not yet told listeners is that this is round two of our conversation. So Jonae and I had a previous recording. I was in a hotel trying to do a workation for the day and there was just a jackhammer that happened to be working right next to my room all day long during a day where I tried to stack a bunch of podcast interviews. So between that and some other technical difficulties, this is round two. But I actually want to start off with a real gem that Jonae surfaced in round one, which is that at the peak of her law practice about five years in, she had her dream clients. They were million dollar earning entrepreneurs. She had every opportunity in the world. Just a growing team. And Jonae, you said something so profound to me, which Was that you had this aha moment, or as you called it, a come to Jesus moment, where you realized you were starting to sabotage your own success just so that you could rest.

Yes, that was definitely a pivotal moment in a turn in my personal journey. I, I, I was very, very committed to, you know, the, the image and the, the, the ways in which I was putting my work out into the world. And, you know, as an entrepreneur, you can't, oftentimes, you can't ever look like you don't have it together. You know, that's, that's one. At that time, anyway, it celebrated to, to fall apart or to need rest or anything. We were definitely at that time, a part of, like, grind culture. Make it happen, do it. It was very, very, very like that. And so I was working around the clock. I had a team of like 11 people. I felt very, very, very, very burnt out. And I could feel it. I could feel that I was really energetically, like, sabotaging my business. And I, and I had one of those moments where I felt it one day, and it was, I was afraid. I was like, I'm not going to, I'm not going to do these, you know, things that other people are telling me that I need to do. Like, I'm not going to, you know, stop doing this and start doing that. And, but literally, when I was talking to my accountant, my accountant was like, there's nothing else for you to do or to cut or anything, so I don't know what's going to happen. And I was launching because I had, you know, courses and things like that. Things were just, they just weren't hitting the way that they should. Like, the, the numbers weren't there. Like, things were just happening. And I could feel that it was me. It wasn't my audience, it wasn't, you know, my team. It was literally me just feeling like I'm so tired and I don't want to be on this hamster wheel anymore. I want freedom. I want space. I want time. I could feel it. And so things just started to kind of do like a, a nose dive from there, kind of descend. And, you know, and it ended up me having to literally take the whole year of off.

I think it can be so hard when you, you're experiencing all the success that you could have dreamed. And in fact, you were so successful and had so many big clients on retainer that you grew your team, like you said, to 11 people. And I always imagine that that must be such a hard balance to strike is when do you Increase your overhead and actually bring on employees. But at what point does it become completely overwhelming and where it's so much pressure just to meet your payroll and, like, I don't know, there are clearly so many business owners who can thrive having these huge teams. I wonder, how do you set that sweet spot? And how did you know, looking back or how do you know now, looking back then, that that overhead, as you describes as a hamster wheel, was just too much, like, too much for you?

Yeah, so. So in retrospect, you know, I was growing very, very fast. And I think that what I've realized now in. In my entrepreneurial at this point, I'm 11 years in, I believe it is. And I. And I just think that slow and sustainable for me is wins the race, so to speak. Like, growing incrementally, growing more strategically. I love, you know, quantum leaps and things like that, but I'm not going for those anymore. What I'm going for now is making sure that everything is, like, solid. Make sure everything is running well, make sure that everyone's serviced well, make sure that everything is quality, make sure that it's something that I'm actually proud of, not trying to keep up with. And I think that that is the difference for where it is that I am now versus where I was then. I was just trying to meet the demand. Like, there was a lot of demand coming in, and I was just hiring people and trying to just, you know, figure it out as I go. But there wasn't enough systems and structures, in my opinion, in place to sustain the level of growth that I was growing. And so that's why it felt essentially like a hamster wheel for me. And I. And I. Every day I was waking up with heightened levels of anxiety. I was waking up in panic attacks sometimes because I was so afraid of everything just kind of crumbling down and everything just kind of disintegrating, you know. And I remember. There's one moment where I remember, like, I was on the bridge. I was driving over the Brooklyn Bridge into Manhattan to go to my. My apartment, and I was on the phone with my mom. And I remember saying to her, like, what if I fuck this up? And I rem saying that to her, and she was like, you're not. Is gonna be fine. And I had just, like, landed my biggest client ever. Like, he was amazing. And, like, I was so nervous that I was like, you know, I was excited, but I was also, like, really nervous. Like, oh, my God. It's like, what if I screw this up? You know? And My mom is like, you're not, it's gonna be fine. And. But I could feel it inside. I was like, you know, the fear, the fear that was inside of me and like having to, I felt like I had to like really over deliver and really come hard and really do all of this stuff and whatnot. But again, I didn't have the systems to actually sustain that. And so, you know, when you put people in a certain type of expectation around what they will receive, you have to keep up with it. And so I feel like in some ways I was sabotaging myself out of the fear. And then in some ways I felt like I was just really tired and realized that I wanted to shift my business and I wanted to do things differently, but I didn't know how to get out of it. And you know what happens when you're, when you're burnt out is you burn shit down often.

It's so true. That is so true. And isn't it crazy that you were driving on a bridge when you had this conversation with your mom so you were like stuck in between. Neither here nor there.

Neither here nor there. I didn't even think about that. But yeah, it's very very, it's very, very clear in my mind, like driving over that bridge and talking to my mom and being so afraid that everything that I worked for was going to come crashing down. It was almost like self fulfilling prophecy at that moment. So, yeah.

Were you on the hook at that time when you had this team? Were you still doing a lot of the work for these VIP clients? Was that part of the stress that you were managing all the operations while also delivering legal services on retainer?

No, I had, I had a team of lawyers who were doing the work that I had hired to do the work. But what I found was many of my clients, they, they weren't used to other people doing the work. They wanted me to do the work. Like they wanted me to be connected. If they didn't want to hire the firm, they wanted to hire me. And so as I was trying to hire attorneys to help me with the levels of legal work, you know, my clients were like, I don't want this person or I don't want that person. I want you to work on it. And, and so, you know, if there were challenges or if there was, you know, an issue with, with some, with someone, I would have to deal with it. And oftentimes for me off in. And this is something that happens just as a black woman. We kind of take everything on ourselves and Be like, you know what? I got it. Forget it. I'll do it. I'll do it myself. And that's kind of what happens. And then also, I mean, I had a business manager, but my business manager was, like, new. So she was still trying to figure out how. How to operate and how to do things. And I really didn't have the. The time to give and dedicate to her in the way that I wanted to. While also. And quite honestly, when I think about it, she was also a little bit green in that way in. In. In running a business like this. And so it was like having to deal with her. And then there was a little bit, you know, those kind of those kerfuffles in between, you know, employees that typically happen. So there was. There was all of this pressure coming from different angles, wanting to satisfy my audience and regularly put out marketing content, wanting to make sure that my classes and my. And my courses and everything did well. Wanting to make sure that my clients were happy with the lawyers that. That were actually assigned to their cases. Wanting to make sure that my. My staff was properly trained. Wanting to make sure that the staff actually got along well and actually were working as a cohesive unit, because we had a mission that we were on and, you know, an overall mission, and then just my own personal livelihood. In terms of being an entrepreneur, all of this means my reputation. All of this means that I have to show up in a particular way where my clients know me, they like me, they trust me. They feel like I'm giving them quality work. They feel safe. Safe. They feel protected. They feel like their money's well spent. So that's a lot of pressure.

That is a lot of pressure. It's so much to juggle. Oh, my gosh.

A few things to consider, but, you know, I think. Go ahead.

Sorry, I just had this visual because you said when you're burnt out, you tend to burn things down. And then now, how we got reconnected was Dory forwarded me a feature that Goop had done on your candles, your candle rituals. So I was thinking to myself as you were talking, goop's feature is called a candle ritual to attract Love. And I'll put it in the show notes. But isn't it beautiful? It's like you hit this burnout, burn it all down, part of your business, and then now you have this burning ritual, like a candle ritual in a new way that is just really encompasses all of who you are. And I definitely want to come back to this. The candle ritual and the spiritual Counseling that you've added on in addition to doing the legal stuff. But you. You have mentioned in 2016, like, you had to take a year off. So just tell us, what did you do? You realize you were waking up with panic attacks. It was so much pressure. Take us from there to where you ended up now. Like, how did you take that space that you needed with all this over your head?

Well, yeah, so in. So in 2016, I mean, during 2015, I really. I had to do the thing that most entrepreneurs hate to do, which is I had to lay off some people. So I had to lay off my staff, and I had to shut down marketing and production and things like that. I had a podcast at the time, and so I, you know.

Did you have to pare down your clients as well? Did you put your clients on pause while paring down the staff?

Yes. So there were some. There were some clients that, you know, obviously I had to make some money. So, you know, there were some clients that I. That I kept working with regularly and working with them on retainer. But the majority of, you know, like, Like, I shut down. I wasn't doing any launch or any products or anything like that. I even shut down marketing in terms of. I stopped emailing my. My list and I. I just. I basically just said, you know, I remember my friend basically saying, you know, if you were. If you were sick, you'd have to take a break, so just take a break and be sick. And I. And that always stuck out to me because at that time, you know, it wasn't some nice, you know, slow, you know, peaceful transition. I was fighting tooth and nail to save my company. I didn't want to. I didn't want to shut down. I didn't want to, you know, quote unquote, be a failure. I didn't want to do any of that. So I was like, no, I can't. I can't shut down. I have to do. And she was just like, she just. She. She told me she was straight up. She was like, you have to. You have to or you're going to die. And that was really a realization for me. That's like, you know, even if it wasn't a physical death, it would have been a spiritual one and so, and an emotional one. So I, you know, I did the very, very hard thing that I did not want to do was I shut everything down and I just was with myself. I was just being with myself, being with my community of, you know, girlfriends and friends at the time and really just kind of sitting with, okay, the letting my nervous system come down from all of that, that was step number one. And so laying off people, being, just being with my community and just kind of sitting with, you know, what do I, what do I want out of this life? What do I want to do? But even before that, I didn't even allow myself to have those questions. I just let myself rest. You know, I had a girlfriend at the time, my girlfriend. And I just kind of, you know, hung out and whatnot. And you know, financially it was hard, but, you know, I had some support around me at that time, which I'm very, very grateful for. And it just allowed me to just kind of be with myself and figure things out. And I ended up going to. Because I can't just sit. Right. Because I am an entrepreneur and I am an active person.

That's even harder.

Right, right. That's hard. So I had to do something with my time. I was like, but, but whatever. But I decided, whatever I decided to do could not be career related or even be focused on my, what I was going to do or the next thing I was going to make or the next pivot, I was going to have nothing. It had to be something completely different and just self focused. So I went to yoga teacher training. I had been doing yoga for 16 years at that point. And, and so I was like, oh, this is perfect. I can deepen my practice, I can learn, I can be creative. It's not related to my business at all. Like, I can really just kind of dive into that. And so that's what I did is I went to yoga teacher training for the summer of 2016 and got certified as a, as a teacher. And I don't teach now, but I do, but I do credit yoga at this point for the ways in which it held me at that time, because that time was so, so hard. And.

At that time I didn't even know if I wanted to be a lawyer anymore. I didn't know if I wanted to be an entrepreneur. I just didn't know anything. And so I just let myself not know anything and just, just be present with what I was experiencing at that moment and just allow myself to just mentally and physically rest and also just be in community with other people. And these people know nothing about my business. They know nothing about my life. All they know is that I'm a fellow student in a yoga class. And that was great.

I love that. I love that. I went to yoga teacher training in Santa Barbara and it was hilarious.

I didn't know that.

Yeah, Same as you. Like, mostly to deepen my own practice. And I was working at Google at the time, so I just kind of joked that I skidded into yoga teacher training like a stressed out mess. And I came out the same way, but mine was with like Playboy bunnies and actresses and NFL players. Like, it was hilarious.

Oh, wow.

Who showed up at that? You're like, oh, yeah, we're all students here, we're all students here, but everyone looks like they stepped out of a magazine.

Wow. Definitely not my experience. It was definitely more of a New York grind experience. But I love that, I love that you, that you had that experience. What did you feel like it taught you? Just curious.

Oh, I just loved it. It was like 16 day residential on these sacred grounds and eating vegan three meals a day. And up till that point, just like you, I had practiced yoga for about five years, so not 16 when I went. And it was just so cool. You know, in a yoga class they don't really get in the ins and outs of anatomy and the philosophy and the history and the. And so just as a teacher, it was incredible because, you know, you and I are probably lifelong teachers, no matter what we're doing in our life and in our business. And it's wild how you to teach a class. So you're saying words, you're instructing every breath. You're looking at the alignment, you're making adjustments, you're making sure no one's in this most horrible triangle pose where they're gonna bl out their knee. And it's so much to hold. It's just such an intense teaching experience and then endless. As a student, that's what I love about yoga, is that same as you. Like, during all my worst times, there is the mat and it's always there. And it's, it's always there.

It's like, it's like, it's like just your most supportive friend. It's like literally just come beyond. Just come be on the mat with me. Yes, put it on. You know, lay it all down. Be in your body, breathe. You know what I mean? Just be here. And it brings you so much. For me, anyway, it brings me so much into the present moment. Like, so much.

It really does. And it's such a. It's like. Because I think the poses are relatively unchanging. I mean, depending on the type of class and the music might change in the teacher, but there you are on this rectangle. And some days, like yesterday, I started a 45 minute class and next thing I know, I'm in. Happy baby. 10 minutes in and I'm like, I don't want to do this anymore.

I've definitely had days like that where I'm just like, oh, when is it over? Looking at the clock.

Totally.

But I appreciate those moments too. Right? So it's right.

Yeah, you're still there. And I just think what you said about rest is so important because it's almost impossible to imagine what's next or to redesign or reconfigure anything when you are coming off that adrenaline cycle, like you said. And I think a lot of people are experiencing that now just because all the adrenaline of 2020 kind of shot us up with like stress and fear.

It did. It's so much stress, so much fear. Our nervous systems were completely shot and so much anxiety. I mean.

It was a very intense year and I mean we're still not out of the wood, still in a pandemic. So, you know, it definitely I feel at that, at that time, I think that it, it's very important that when you do decide to take a break, even if you're taking, not a full on break, like I'm shutting everything down, but even if you're just taking like small, small breaks like oh, I'm gonna take a week off or a weekend or something like that, really just allow yourself to be in that break versus trying to figure out what's next or trying to figure out what you're, or how everything is going to look. Because I think that for me anyway, a lot of the answers come up intuitively. A lot of the answers come up through my body. And if I'm not in my body but I'm in my head, then I'm trying to figure out things versus allowing things to just come and to understand how those things that actually come are the things that I actually need at that moment versus what I'm trying to force or figure or you know, realign or reconfigure. Like, you know, just let yourself do that. And when you do that, then some of the most beautiful, you know, ideas and some of the most beautiful creative inclinations come out of that period of you just kind of being and resting and allowing yourself to just kind of be present with whatever it is that you're experiencing and let your nervous system come down.

It's so true. We'll be right back just after this.

Hi, this is Deechen Lackman and I am here to tell you Toyotathon is on. So stop by your local Toyota dealer for incredible year end deals on the cars, trucks and SUVs known for their legendary reliability, like the stylish and efficient Camry. The ready for anything rav4. Or check out a rough and rugged Tacoma or Tundra, all with great financing and lease options available to qualified customers. Visit buyatoyota.com to find. Find out more Toyota let's go places.

I love the shift that you've made. I mean, just hearing you say all of this, I'm imagining 2015 jonae looking at the life and the way you work now. And I bet she wouldn't have even thought it's possible.

Definitely not. Because the thing I realized was, is that what I kept coming back to. And like I said, I went through many transitions mentally and emotionally or whatever during that period. It. But what I always kept coming back to was, was being a lawyer. What I always came back to was, you know, being a coach. What I always came back to was my spiritual practice. And that's all the things that I practice now. It's all the same stuff. But it was like I had to kind of step away to realize it was really what I wanted. Like, it was really where I wanted to be. And when I got out of the haze of burnout, I could see clearly that I was still connected to these things. Things, and I still wanted to do them. I still wanted to, you know, this is my gift to the world. This is the things that I was. These were. These are my callings. These are the things that I was supposed to do. And so it just. If I didn't do them in a way where I was an entrepreneur, they would still come up. I would still end up doing them. I would still end up guiding people, and I would still end up supporting people. I would still end up doing my best to empower people with information. I would still do my best to encourage people and, and help to build, you know, security and support around themselves. I would still do all these same things, but they might have just come in a different form, they might have emerged in a different way. But being, but me being an entrepreneur is something that I've always been. I've always been starting businesses. I've always been committed to being an entrepreneur ever since I was 7. And so it just made sense for me personally to those things that I believe are really my purpose, to meld them together with what I believe to be my calling is, and then from there, you know, create the life that I wanted to live.

What was your first business when you were seven?

I had a friendship bracelet business.

You did.

And I Did. I did see, my. My mom couldn't afford. We couldn't afford getting allowances and stuff. But what. But what I had was investors. So my mom gave me money.

Thanks.

She gave me money. I bought my little friendship bracelet materials and stuff. And instead of being on the. The Monke as at recess and stuff like that, I would sit and I would make friendship bracelets, and I actually had order forms. The people at the fabric store, they all knew me. I had a whole case with all my color selections in it, and I filled those out, and that's how I made money as a kid. I didn't have an allowance, so I love it.

I didn't have an allowance. I had investors.

I had investors.

I had investors.

And then, like. And then like, my grandmother, she might give me a little bit. Bit more coins, and then I would go and buy some more colors. Like. Yeah. And I knew. And I knew to, like, charge more for what I was, you know, for the labor and for the fact that I was the materials and all of that stuff. So those friendship bracelets, yeah, I was making a profit. And this was me at seven.

That is incredible. I just think the order forms, like, that just makes me so giddy.

Had so, you know, and obviously I'm seven, so they don't look like, you know, the kind of order forms I had. I had a little notepad, and people write down what they wanted, and then I put a little price on it, and then I would make them at lunchtime or. Or on recess, and then I would, you know, give them to them.

I just wish I could have seen Jonet at 7, like, on Shark Tank. You know how sometimes they have. The little kids just would have been like, I would.

I would have run. You don't even understand. I would have made that into an operation. You don't even know. Like, and a whole friendship bracelet, like, operations, production and everything. Sharks.

Yeah.

It was true. And. And ever since then, it's like I can look back at different points in my life and see what I was doing entrepreneurially. And the thing was, is that it, you know, it was innately connected to my. My desire to survive. Like, it wasn't, you know, for me to have, you know, money to take care of my lunch or to, you know, or do the certain things at school that the other kids got to do or whatever. Like, you know, those s. Little book order forms and stuff like that. Like, it. It made me realize that I could have autonomy and I could take care of myself. And, you know, it was kind of it was kind of born from that. And when I look at different parts of my life, you know, in middle school, in high school, in college, you know, I've been doing this. And what I realize is, is that, you know, being, being a, being an attorney was just. Just the ultimate calling for me in terms of one of the things that I knew I was supposed to do. After I made the decision, it was like I was driven and I knew that this is what I needed to do. And. And I still, to this day, I still love what I do. And it's funny because people always say, like, you're one of the few, if any, lawyers that I know that actually loves what they do. And I'm like, maybe I love it because I get to be an entrepreneur and do it. Like, I get to, I get to work with really interesting people and change my business as I want to, and I get to do all, you know, I get to do the things that I want to do. So it's not, it doesn't feel like my, my freedom is restricted. It feels like it's expanded.

Well, and I love. Because you're, you're right. I definitely don't meet many lawyers who seem to be thriving and living, like, intuitively and with body wisdom and spirituality. And you're so inspiring as a lawyer because often when we hear the entrepreneurial stories, it's someone who quit their job being a lawyer. Like, they quit the most oppressing job in this field. And can you just tell us what kind of law, like, who are your ideal clients? And what kind of law do you love the most?

Absolutely. I love. And this will be no surprise to you, Jenny. My firm is a business and intellectual property law firm, which means that I work with entrepreneurs.

So needed. And we all need it. We all need it. All these trademark shenanigans of trademarking every other word.

TM the trademark shenanigans, all the technology shenanigans, the marketing shenanigans, all of them. So, yeah, goodness for you.

I went to. When I, when I went to law school, like, I thought that I definitely thought I was going to go into entertainment. That's what I went to law school for. I was like, done and done. Obviously, I was a former musician. I was like, this is where I'm going. This is what I'm doing. But then I took this business law class and oh, my gosh, it was like the heavens opened up. I. It was like this. Yes, this is what I'm supposed to do. And literally, I got an A plus in that class because I showed up every freaking day because I loved talking about how to protect entrepreneurs, how to help them start businesses, how to help them, you know, consolidate businesses, how to help them run them, how to expand on what it is they're doing. So from a business standpoint, like, I look at wealth strategy and I look at security. So I look at specifically how is it that you can grow the business and legally protect it. How can you, you know, look at, insure what it is that you're currently doing, and then how can you actually take it to the next level while also maintaining that. That legal protection? And so I love melding together wealth and security and helping entrepreneurs learn how to. How to do that from a legal perspective. And so that's what I do. And then obviously with intellectual property, I mean, if you're an entrepreneur, you have to think about that. You have to think about your trademarks and your patents and your copyrights. You have to think about those things. Things because they're a major part of your business. And so it just. It just worked together. So it was less about. It was less about entertainment. Although many of my clients are people who have. Who are like you, who have books and who have shows and who have, you know, offers on the table and TV and things like that. So I do all of that work for them. But. But really my focus is not just on that aspect of, like, getting your work out to a larger audience, but also how do you secure the work that you actually have coming in. And oftentimes, when you're dealing in media, there are no protections for the entrepreneurial side of. Of what it is that you're doing as a business owner. You know, so that's something that I'm always thinking about, is how can we actually protect what you're building while we also allow you to expand and to create, grow. So that's what I currently do.

Okay, well, clearly, I'm gonna have to have you back on the show so we can talk all about this.

Absolutely, I would be happy to, because.

I. I'm like, wait a second, we're doing all this fun, understanding your story and the pivots and the shifts you've made and how you're creating more free time. And then, wow, we have a whole wealth of content. Not content, but conversation around what small business owners, which is who this show is for, can be thinking about. So let's put a pin in that one.

Yeah, we'll definitely put a pin in that. I'm happy to come back and talk to you. Anytime, Jenny.

Because selfishly, I want to make sure we have time to talk about this GOOP feature. And specifically, first of all, GOOP is like the new Oprah Book Club. Because I know everybody says if you get a GOOP feature, it's amazing. It's such a, like all kinds of interest and people reaching out and they wrote such a beautiful feature on this. I love thinking about you making your friendship bracelets because I feel like that same part of you that likes to get your hands on things, you know, they have featured this part of you and it starts off saying, how does a successful lawyer become a brilliant spiritual practitioner? Like, does it get any better? But the part that jumped out to me, me, which I love, is that it says in the article, it says right now she's fully booked for one on one mentoring. But see her open courses and VIP sessions and keep an eye out for upcoming business masterclasses. I just think it must take a lot of guts to tell GOOP I'm fully booked right now. And for have them put that in article. And it just seems like I, I doubt if the self we were talking about, the 2015 Jonae would have said that. You probably would have said like, bring them all, I'll fit them all in. And now here you are going, yes, I got this amazing feature and I'm fully booked. And I just want to hear a little bit about that thought process to ensure that you stay just like beautifully balanced and sane as you are.

You know, I, I really appreciate that. I wish I could take credit for that, but it was actually the writer because goop, you know, people have their thoughts and their feelings, things about goop, whether they love it or whether they feel like it's not for them. And it's, that's totally fine. But GOOP has been amazing to me. They have been so kind, they've been so generous and they, you know, the article that they wrote about me, they were very, they were very intentional. And I worked with the person who did the article. I worked with her for several months before she even wrote it. And so it was, she took it upon herself to let people know. And it was almost like, like I had, I had protected my own boundaries so much in a particular way, energetically, that I feel like she picked up on that. And when I told her that, no, I am, I'm fully booked right now, she just, I felt like for some reason she just knew to actually put that in there to protect a particular boundary for me. And I, I appreciate that because it wasn't something that I said to her, like, make sure you let people know I am booked up. No, I just. We had. We were in conversation and I just told her and she was like, listen, you know people, I'm gonna let you know she's already booked. And. And like I said, I appreciate that, but I do think that it was spiritually. I feel like that was a. It was a part of what I had already been putting out there in terms of energetically just trying to make sure that. That the way I run my schedule creates a certain level of me being able to take care of myself and make myself the top priority so that I can show up in the best and the most high quality ways for all of the kinds of work that I do. And you know, being a spiritual advisor was not something that was initially on my plate to do. It wasn't something that wanted to do. It was something that just came to me to offer. And so I said, hey, why not? You know, let me just put it out there. As an entrepreneur, it's like when you get those inclinations, you know, do what. Do what it is that you feel called to do. And, you know, you can't be afraid to put things out there, especially different parts of yourself when it comes to who you are. And you know, I have a personal brand and my personal brand is really kind of centered on, you know, entrepreneurship and development and helping people to, you know, be their best selves and show up up and embrace all the aspects of theirselves. And that's outside of me being a lawyer, but the two things are kind of. They go together and they meld together because it's all me and it's all coming from me.

I love how you listen to your intuition and you are so intuitive. And I just love hearing that this idea of spiritual counseling came to you as an intuitive hit and that you said, okay then yes, I will add this into the mix. And not that you've replaced the law side or anything, but you are creating space and expanding how you show up. So it is still part of the same jonae. But I bet it will attract even more of your right clients to know that you have this spiritual intuitive side in addition to the legal nuts and bolts.

It definitely has. Jenny, to be honest, like I from that article, I have attracted so many incredible legal clients and so many incredible, incredible coaching clients just because they are. It's almost like that article and I didn't even realize this, but it was like that article gave them permission to be their full selves. And to show up as their full selves. And they were like, I would want to work with somebody in these areas where I need support. I would want to work with somebody who also shows up as their full self, because that's what I want. And so that was really amazing. Like I said, it wasn't something that I even realized was going to happen. And as an entrepreneur, we, we do have, have to stay curious, we do have to follow different hits and, and, and things like that. Because like I said, sometimes that's leading you to a different direction and that direction might be more in alignment with where you are at this moment. And you have to allow yourself to be, you know, interchangeable and you have to allow yourself to continue to expand and to grow as a human being because that is ultimately what's going to, to expand your purpose in the world and the work that you do, your calling, like it's going to expand everything if you're expanding. And so I just always try to stay true to that aspect and it doesn't. And it's all, it's always wild. It's always like, huh, okay, I'll try it. Let's see what happens.

There's like a sense of humor. Sometimes you're like, what? Okay, here's a question for you. I call articles like this scoop feature. It's kind of of, I call it Serendipity Popcorn. Like anything that you can put out that can just lead to these little kernels popping every which way and you don't even know where they're going to come from next. Did you, Because I've heard you say a couple things about energetically putting things out there first and getting aligned within yourself? Did you do anything or had you already shifted in some way that created the space energetically for this goop profile to just kind of come out of what feels like nowhere, but maybe there's a logical way she found you.

Yes. So that whole four year period between 2016 and 2020, I was doing a lot of personal work. I, you know, I got into a program that supported people who were in, in burnout. I got into therapy. I did a lot of self development work. I was a part of a community of women at the time. And I again moved. You know, I, I relocated to a new, a new state that had a little bit of a slower pace. Although my work is still based in New York and now Los Angeles. I, you know, I stay kind of stationed for now in New Orleans because it was a slower pace. So I made a lot of personal changes during that time. And I think that that creating that personal space and working on myself kind of opened up the energy for me to even go into this new path, which then opened up the doors for, for GOOP to come through. And I in. It was a, I guess it was serendipitous, but it was also practical. Meaning. Like I had a friend who was connected to GOOP and she what she had experienced my work and she was just like, you have to meet this person. Like, she talked to a writer there and was like, you have to meet her, you have to just talk to her. Just talk to her on the phone. Oh my gosh, she's amazing. Da da da da da. And so, you know, the person got on the phone with me, we had like a 10 minute conversation, and then she messaged my friend like, I'm writing about her, like, I have to meet with this person. We have to talk. I have to write about her. Da da da da. And so what I would say is, is that had I not done the personal work between, between 2016 and 2020, had I not followed the call to actually help my friend and do some work for her and help her through a particular time, she would have never got the inclination to say, other people need to experience this and who else to experience it. But you know, a, a major, you know, press junket that's per. That's focused on personal development. And from there that person got a chance to experience what I do. And then it kind of popped out from there. And so, so there were steps, but it was really guided by my own journey in terms of taking care of myself.

That's so incredible. And before I ask you our last question, you don't have any employees now, do you?

I do.

You do? How many full time?

No, no, no, I don't have. I have part time people and I don't. And I, and I'm very, we are expanding everything to, to go in a, in a direction of being. It's not just being all centered on me. And I'm very, very excited about that. I'm excited for the work to live in a different way. And so yes, I do. I have, I have part timers now and eventually, you know, Covid put a lot of things on hold. I had a whole different plan when I, when stepping into 2020. My plan looked a lot different than where it looked, than what it looks like now. However, you know, so I've had to make some adjustments. I did have plans to bring on full time staff and do that whole thing at the start of 2020 and then things had to shift. And so I'm okay with that. I think that it was for the best for me personally. And so now it's kind of again, more of a slow and steady. Slow, steady and sustainable is where I'm at right now.

I love it. Slow, steady, sustainable, spiritual. These are exactly, exactly.

Those are the yeses.

Yes, the S's. I didn't want to leave listeners hanging who were thinking, okay, go from 11 to what's your setup? So I always want to be sure that I ask last question is if you could give, if you could write our fellow business owners a permission slip for one thing, what would it be for?

It would be to take a break. Take a freaking break. Like a lot build breaks into your schedule. Even if you're like, oh, I love what I do, so feel like work, it still is and you need to take a break and allow yourself to just be in a space of creativity. Meaning like being connected to the universe, being connected to yourself, allowing yourself to just kind of your nervous system would come down because even if you love what you do, there's still a lot of fast moving pace. We're in this technology world, like just allow yourself to breathe and be easy and be in it and in present with that. So, so taking a break and allowing yourself to be present, that's the permission slip I'd love to leave with everybody.

I love it. What an absolute delight. Thank you so much, Jonae.

You're welcome. And I thank you so, so much for again being an amazing and high quality human being being in my life. And also this, this work that you're doing right now, in my opinion is going to help so many, so many people because we have, as you know, we experienced so many entrepreneurs who have, who are coming to pivots in their lives or experience burnout or need those permission slips. And so I really honor and appreciate the work that you're doing in the world and I'm just happy to support it in any way I can.

Oh, thank you so much. Now my cheeks are hurting from smiling so much from this whole interview. Truly. So such a just joy to speak with you and I'm so glad that but for anyone who doesn't already know Jonae, that she's on your radar now and I can't wait. We'll have to do a whole follow up on IP and actual like, you know, how people can protect themselves. So huge thanks again and hopefully more soon.

Absolutely. Thank you so much. And I'd be happy to come back and share more about the legal stuff.

Awesome. Thanks everybody for listening. If you've listened this far, you get a great gold star. Thank you. Word of mouth is the most joyful way we can grow this show and it helps us land interviews with the luminaries and insightful guests that you would most love to hear from. Please send this episode to a friend who might find it helpful and for show notes and related links from this episode, visit itsfreetime.com while you're there, make sure you're subscribed to the Time well Spent newsletter. You'll get instant, instant access to my Tech Toolkit, a continually updated list of all the software I use along with the total monthly spend to run my business where no one works full time Even me. Visit itsfreetime.com join Remember, you are running the show. It's time for radical reimagining and everything is up for grabs. Let it be easy, let it be fun and build with love.