043: From Start-Up to Grown-Up (and Coach to Author) with Alisa Cohn

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Hello friends. I am thrilled to be here today with Alyssa Cohn. Alyssa was named the top startup coach in the World at the Thinkers50 Marshall Goldsmith Global Coaches Award in London. But perhaps an even bigger claim to fame is our mutual friend Dori Clark. Dorie and Alyssa have I've just gone on so many adventures since I've known both of them. Investing in Broadway, navigating the pandemic, coaching ventures together. And now we all have the great fortune of celebrating Alyssa's brand new book From Startup to Grownup, published by Kogan Page. Alyssa herself has been coaching startup founders to grow into world class CEOs for nearly 20 years and I have to say we did what I call a brilliance barter once and she blew me away. I was like this woman, this is a woman who has really honed her coaching tools like they are so sharp and targeted and precise and powerful. With that Alyssa, welcome to the show.

Jenny, thank you so much for that wonderful introduction and thank you so much for having me today.

I am just thrilled you're here. What's interesting about your book From Startup to Grownup is that you're mostly speaking to founders who start their company with these entrepreneurial visions and then there is a certain moment where it's very stretchy and edgy to grow into the CEO that the organization needs. Most people who are here are running delightfully tiny teams on purpose and have probably on some level decided they don't want to be the CEO of a big business. And I'm just wondering, I know you have a chapter about this that not everybody is cut out or wants to be CEO. And and I'm curious what you see among the founders you coach who is just rightfully nervous about the role and has the potential to grow into it versus those that you coach to say, are you sure maybe this isn't the role for you?

With the founders that I work with, they all feel a sense of pressure and probably desire to be the CEO if they're founding a company. And, and I think it's for them to like step back and think like is this really what I'm up for? So it's not so much that I think it's not even most of the founders I work with are more overconfident in their abilities or maybe they dismiss what it's really going to take to be that CEO, to be the leader for that company. And I do encourage everyone to do a lot of self examination and reflection. And then to your point, you know, for everybody who decides, I think it's very powerful to decide I don't want to build a big business. I don't want to take in an investor money and VC money. I want to grow this at the speed and pace that's comfortable for me. And it's an interesting question like for, I think for all of us we have to be both growing. So getting out of our comfort zone and growing and that can be painful and also working with our negative voices and difficult, you know, challenges in our head but also accepting who we are. And I think for everybody that's attention that we have to navigate our whole lives in terms of, you know, being the, the leader we want to be for our business but also for ourselves.

Yeah. You say the work is in you, that it all starts with looking within. And you say in the book, I laughed when I read this line, if you haven't done some self reflection, you hire yourself over and over again without realizing it.

Yes. It's so true. Well, it's so true. And also I would just say you're then also subject to your triggers and your issues and you know, whatever, whatever your little habits or quirks are, you're also sub. You're the victim of them. So I think that when you reflect and step back, you can have a more comprehensive sense of who you should be hiring and how you want to handle and compensate for your own, you know, obstacles or triggers.

That's what was so interesting reading the little. You have so many great anecdotes in this book, but the one about the organization and the culture reflecting your own unconscious behaviors, that is like if the CEO is afraid of giving feedback, all of a sudden he's created or she a 20 or 100 person company where they're all tiptoeing around each other and the examples that you shared where these founders look out at their company and they go, oh, oh my goodness. Every facet of this culture is an manifestation of my personality and the limits of their growth. Like just what a mind blowing thing to see that play out as you must have seen so many times as the coach helping along that journey.

Yeah, definitely. It's really true. And you know, I had a founder who said to me one time exactly that, like you know, three years in, I think that's what it was. It was about three years in and I kind of can see that, that all of my stuff is reflected exactly in the people I've hired and it's, it's real, it's really true.

Startup to grownup Obviously all of us, even solopreneurs, want to progress along the journey of being a brand new baby founder of our business to having a more grownup, mature, self aware take on it. That said, who, who should not become a CEO, who should not grow their business to a very big size or take on investor funding given that you do so much work with those who do. I'm just wondering, you know, for so many people listening, they go, well, you know, like I, I sometimes ask myself, am I just afraid and I would actually be great at it, or am I genuinely hearing something within myself that says no, that's not for you. And I'm curious what your take is.

Well, I do think it's for all of us. We have to tune into our inner voices. So when your inner voice is, you know, talking to you, I think it's important to listen. But then it's also important to think and is this my negative voices, like I can't do it or are there things that you don't like about it? So I will say this. When you decide you want to build a big business and you take investor money or even just you activate around building a big business, the challenges are significant. When I talk to founders, they always say to me, I knew there would be ups and downs, but I didn't realize how, how down, how low the downs would be, how exhausting it would be to context switch into ups and downs all the time and how they would often at the same time, like you could say within five minutes of each other, but actually at the same time. And so if that's not. And then I would add the persistence of recognizing that you've made an obligation, that you're driving towards an outcome and that it's not going to take two years or three years, that's going to take 10 years. Right. Sort of that journey that you're on is going to be that hard for that long. People say it's not a marathon, it's a sprint, but actually it's a sprint, but it's the length of a marathon. So recognizing that and the choices and sacrifices you have to make in your lifestyle and also your ability to handle those ups and downs and have that grit and persistence that you really need to be that kind of a founder, I think that's the kind of reflection you want to look at. And I think it's very helpful for people to come to terms with where they stand on that because then whatever business you decide to start, at least you'll have gone through the trouble of really asking yourself the hard questions.

You also outline in the book, which I think you do a very helpful job of some of the main tasks of the CEO. Set direction and culture. Hire and manage. Switch hats quickly. Deal with conflict. Make sure you don't run out of money. First and foremost, make sure people know what's going on. And I can imagine that some listeners go, yeah, no thanks. You know, right. Like they like being the creative or the coach or the. Because in a sense your business, Alyssa, you have a big business revenue and reach and impact wise, but you have a delightfully tiny team. Oh, definitely of one.

Right?

You don't have any full time employees, do you?

No, I don't have any. I'm an army of one. I have, I don't have any full time employees, but of course I have a number of, you know, people I work with around me who, who are helpful and I, yes, I actually have. Every once in a while I have a number of like, ideas for a startup and I also think about joining a startup every once in a while, like, oh, I should just like work here at such a great company or whatever. But, but I myself recognize that that may not be the journey that I want to be on. Because the other thing, Jenny, is that when you work with a whole bunch of people, so my delightfully tiny team is me and then a few, you know, part time or contract folks. And that is just so different from somebody navigating with 30 people, a hundred people, a thousand people. And I think it is so different to have to think about influencing all those people and how to think about communicating to all those people. And like I myself with my amazing virtual assistant, we constantly have miscommunication, constantly, you know, and it's like having to then think about how do you scale your communication to a thousand people or to 5,000 people over time. It's not really what I'm excited to do. And if you're not excited to do that, then you probably don't want to be the CEO of that size company or that, that kind of company on the growth trajectory.

Speaking of culture, we hear a lot about bring yourself to work, bring your whole self. Communication is a hot topic now because what should we be talking about? What shouldn't we, how do we navigate all these very sensitive issues of our times? And oh man, that's a whole nother topic of this, this question. Should we talk about politics at work? There's a point in the book where you say be yourself except when you shouldn't. And I really appreciated the lines you drew around what it means for a founder, even the tiny founders like you and me, where we have an extended team. What it means to be yourself, but not so authentic actually that, that in fact there are limits to authenticity at work. And you were one of the first people that I've read in a while that lays that out so clearly of like maybe no, don't be your whole self at work. And I wonder if you can explain, explain a little bit about the pitfalls and what you see in this area where it goes wrong and what you recommend instead.

Yeah, so I think that people look at founders and really any leader and say oh, you should be authentic and that, you know, I put air quotes around that authentic. And I think what they mean is that they have a version of what that looks like that means like appropriate vulnerability and that looks like, you know, caring about other people and also sharing about their weekends or that kind of thing. That's fantastic. But if you're true, true self is I'm terrified about, you know, sort of this losing this customer. And I'm also, I'm short tempered because I've got too many things going on and I haven't had lunch. And that's your authentic self. Actually it's not very helpful to bring that authentic self to work. It's actually very unhelpful and nobody wants that cranky or overly anxious or even what if you're authentically controlling person. Nobody wants your, you know, genuine controlling nature at work. That's hilarious. And so what they really mean, what I think that people mean is maybe two things we don't want to feel you're fake. So what that does mean is that it's helpful to bring some humanity to work. And it's helpful also to recognize that even as you start to realize you need to communicate differently, you need to adapt your style and change as a communicator that you don't turn 180 degrees into. You know, used to be that maybe you were sort of more quiet and more contained and then overnight you turn into this like loud cheerleader that does not look authentic. And it is true that it, even as you grow your style and change your style, you don't have to spin all the way to the other side. And again, people want to see your humanity. So they do want to know a little bit more about you. They do want to know what you did on the weekend and they do want to sense inside of you appropriate vulnerability. And the reason, Jenny, that's important is because actually people want to be able to contribute. And if you're the CEO, the founder, or again, any leader, and there are no chinks in your armor to contribute to, it's actually disengaging like, well, you've already got it all figured out and you don't need any help from me. So what I think is very helpful to do is kind of look for places that they can showcase their humanity and, and some appropriate vulnerability and then continue to have the discipline to really see what is needed now and adapt to the situation.

Now that's probably why people say it's lonely at the top, because on some level the CEO does need to inspire confidence. And I can imagine, especially for the founders you work with that have millions of dollars and boards that they're accountable to and these growing companies and they're still not profitable yet. Oh my goodness. Like talk about a roller coaster. Yeah, but it's kind of lonely at the top because you really shouldn't necessarily tell everybody everything about that journey.

Totally. And also if you're having issues with your executive team, for example, the people you should not go discuss that with is your executive team.

Right, Right.

Because you don't want to talk to people about their peers. And if you're having problems with your co founder, there's almost no one you can discuss it with. And if you have concerns about something that's about to happen nobody knows about, I mean, for example, possibly layoffs or maybe losing a large customer, you are eventually have to talk about it with people. But your first reaction, I'll say this, when I coach CEOs very often their first reaction is not their most enlightened reaction, let's put it that way. So I am safe space to have their first reaction and their second reaction and get it out there, we can talk about it, commiserate, and then we can give them their more enlightened reaction, which is in there. It just, in the, it needs to, it needs to ripen in the fullness of time.

You mentioned very sensitive events like layoffs, hiring, and firing. It just continues to feel super daunting for me. Again, another reason why my business is so tiny. At least my team is so tiny. Tell me, Alyssa, is there ever a point when it comes to the firing conversations that people are not just sick to their stomach? Like, part of me feels I'm just too sensitive. I never get over it. And not that I do typical firing because I don't have any full time employees, but just the thought of hiring someone. And this takes me back to seventh grade. Thinking of, like, boys I had a crush on. I would just go straight to the ending of how devastated I'd be when we would break up or they would break up with me. This was my neurosis for, like, a lot of my early dating years was just the fear of the breakup. And to this day, the thought of having to give someone the super tough feedback, not just here's how you can improve, but like, I don't think this is working. And then we should go separate directions. It does not seem to get any easier. And I'm just wondering if you find that for you or the people you work with, there does come a point where it gets easier, or do they always find it just as challenging?

You know, I think that just like anything, when you get enough reps in, unfortunately, it does get easier. I don't think it changes the feeling in the, in your, the pit of your stomach that, you know, all the founders I work with, of course they, or any leader, they dread it. Of course. I think that the way I approach it and I help them think about it, is, let's start eight months ago, let's start a year ago, and maybe a year's too long, but like, let's start six or eight months ago and just recognize this person is not meeting your expectations. So why don't you go have that conversation with this person? We are far from firing anybody. I just discussed this with a client the other day that.

One of his executives was, you know, we really clarified what she was, what requirements she was not meeting. So she was not engaging appropriately with her peers. You know, she was sort of, um, letting them run the conversation. She was actually multitasking in meetings and it was clear. And then she didn't have a strategic point of view on the business. So that was the conversation that they were able to have that he was able to lay out for her in a very clear way. And I, you know, TBD if she's able to improve these things. But now it's clear and it's on the table. I need you to take this seriously. And my recommendation to everybody is to really not think about firing someone. Because when you fire someone, all of a sudden it's a surprise to them. You're always going to wonder if you give them enough of a chance. And instead you need to think about it as a process. Right. So it's about the feedback, the difficult feedback, the I need you to improve, the how can I help you? And if you put all those things in place, to be honest with you, after a period of time, it should be pretty clear to this person that we're going to part ways. And honestly, the person may themselves think, you know what? This is not for me, and they're going to give you an out. So I think, Jenny, in addition to the firing conversations, people shy away from the initial conversations, which the. Which are the I seriously need you to improve on these things conversations.

Absolutely. And like you said, unless they're completely unselfaware, usually both parties can feel it. What I would imagine and kind of what I observed at Google is it was pretty clear when someone wasn't in the right role or just really wasn't thriving or had one foot out the door. It was never that much of a surprise. But every now and then it would be. And that was. That was devastating.

Part of what I try to offer in my book is I have a number of scripts in the appendix of my books.

Those are so good, by the way.

Oh, thank you. And they help you have delicate conversations, difficult conversations, not just, oh, difficult feedback. It's also which it is. But also it's also not just firing people, which it is. So feel free to look in the back of my book for all those helpful scripts. But also how do you handle layoffs? How do you handle delivering bad news? Even one on ones people don't know how. I just was talking to a client the other day who told me when I came in a number of years ago and just talked about like one on ones, it was a revelation for him. He's like, oh, like, did you invent the one on one? I'm like, actually no, it's a thing. And so people don't really know how to have a one on one or how to structure it. If you don't know, you don't know. So even just getting, you know, scripts and your, your mouth around the words of all kinds of things that you need to do as a leader in the corporate world is very helpful. And then if you practice it over and over, it becomes more natural to you, it becomes more authentic to you. How's that?

I love the scripts. Thank you for bringing those up. I want to take a sharp 90 degree turn now.

Yep.

I mentioned this before we hit record. It's been awesome, inspiring to watch your journey from coach to author, from very successful, seasoned executive coach to first time author, to be more specific. And I know that this was a journey for you. This was as monumental as the transformation that you describe in the book. Was you wrapping your mind around, can I do this? Should I do this? How do I do this? And I'm wondering if you could just let us in a little bit behind the process of what. What seemed very daunting to you in the early days and was there a moment when you did decide, okay, I can do it or I'm going to give it a shot.

I, as you said, I'm a coach and in my field, as a coach, you really need, you really need to write a book. It is like a thing that you kind of need to do if you're going to be any kind of a big deal. So it's true that I have a very successful maybe imprint and also, or I should say footprint and business. But it's always been a chip on my shoulder that, and I'll say this, that I couldn't write a book. That I want to say, I can't write a book. That was my sort of theme song earlier in my career. When I say earlier my career, my.

My entire career, where did that thought come from? I can't write a book. Not me. You'd watch your friends do it and then go, no, not me.

Yeah, I'm actually looking at a bookshelf right this second of all. Many, many, many books that I have and I even would recognize. It seems like other people have written books and it seems like I'm perfectly capable. And actually if I look at some of these books, more capable than that person and more smart than that person, but I somehow can't write a book. And so I don't really know.

I think I'll get to the thinking in a minute. But the experience was people would say, well, just sit down and write your stories. So I would try that. It'd be extremely frustrating and depressing. And then I would stop. People would say, just write a whole bunch of articles and they'll turn into a book. No, they don't. No, they didn't. They did not.

That's hilarious.

Yeah, just write a table of contents. Our friend Dori Clark sat down with me and wrote not one, but two tables of contents with me. And for me. Right. So that didn't work either. And so it was this feeling. There's just a sense of incredible frustration when I, a very capable person, sit down to do something and it's not coming, it's not coming, it's not coming. And I had a big chip on my shoulder. In fact, Jenny, it's really rewarding to have this conversation with you because the day I met you, somebody asked me. We were a foursome together. And I'm not going to name names, but there was somebody in the foursome who asked me about a book or maybe gave me more advice about how I write my book or something like that. And I snapped at her, which is something I used to do, my authentic self. And you were right there. And I feel like I made this bad impression on you because I was so, you know, explosive.

About this person's, I'm sure, well meaning advice about how to write a book. But I had such a chip on my shoulder and I was so, like, tight about it that it was just. I was very locked up about it, I'll say. So I think the turning point to probably two aspects for me, I now see that I have some. I had some reservations about, let's say, becoming more exposed. And as I have become a lot more exposed in the past couple of years, I've even noticed that, you know, some anxiety comes up inside of me. And I think it comes from some stuff in my childhood about being bullied, actually. And the turning point for sure, I've done a ton of, like, personal growth and my own, you know, getting out of my own way. Tons and tons and tons of both self coaching and different kinds of workshops. But our mutual friend Michael Bungy Stanier, who I met through the Marshall goals with 100 coaches, he was kind enough to do immunity to change with me. It's. It's a process where you sort of look and see what is sticking you. And Michael said to me, have you ever done immunity change? I'm like, yeah, yeah, I read the book. I read that book. I know, I know. But he said, well, you want to do it together? I'm really good at it. I'm like, all right, well, who wouldn't want to spend time with Michael Bunge Stanier, of course. So I'm like, yes. So he did immunity change with me. And I was able to see, oh, you have a lot of associations with writing book. How hard it's going to be, how hard it's going to be to market it or promote it, how difficult it's going to be, how much I'm uncomfortable feeling exposed. And then even I have this whole association. People who write their books and they say in my book, I say, you know, I didn't want to be. I didn't want to be that person I used to. Michael. Michael, even you do that. You know, like the people who write books do that. And so we put. I almost felt like I was like, putting all the cards on the. I had this visual experience of, like, putting out all my cards, and we did not solve a single issue that I brought up. And yet having them all revealed to me definitely shifted something inside of me. And I saw what was holding me back. So immediately to change is this experience of, like, you have one foot on the accelerator and one foot on the brake, which is extremely frustrating. And so once I kind of saw all my feet on the brake, so to speak, I just kind of shifted and made some decisions internally. I think about, I'm going to freaking do this, and that's what's going to happen. And then fortunately or unfortunately, we got into a global pandemic. And I thought to myself, if we come out of a global pandemic and you have not used the time to write your book, you can be very disappointed in yourself. So I did.

That is so incredible. And you have a publisher. So did you write a proposal and shop it, or did you have an intro already where you just like. Because that seemed pretty fast from going to. From that moment that you had, which is so powerful. Thank you for sharing so much of your inner world around this. So how did the publisher come to be. And then also, I'm very curious, once you decided to write what, technically speaking, actually helped you, like, compiling the articles was not going to help, how did you get over that hump of the technical blocks that you were having? So I'd love to know both.

I had already met Kathy Sweeney of Kogan Page, and we had already talked a year prior, and she was already, as she said, she believed in me, which was very nice. And she. She and I got to know each other well enough so that I had to write a proposal. But it was a much probably slimmer proposal that other people have to write. And she was willing to. She was just willing to take a less full proposal. So that was extremely helpful.

And.

And then I went through a bunch of iterations of this table of contents that I had to write myself. Right. It wasn't like Dory could just write it for me. And also I had to really think about what are the topics. So thank you, Michael Bungy Stanier, who said in the middle of the pandemic, you need to write a hundred note cards of the things on your mind. And, you know, that was helpful. Not because he told me to do it, that was very helpful. But like, I already knew that it was. That I was already ready. So now I could actually do that and not get so upset about it. And then my friend Erica Keswin so nicely helped me shape those 100 note cards into the structure itself. And I sent it to Kathy, and then Kathy helped me rework the structure. And that's how. That's the structure that came apart. I came together. And once I had the structure, I was able to write it. I. I started just telling my stories. I just started talking about and writing my stories, and they were able to kind of fit inside of the structure. So things that hadn't worked in the past worked. And even when Kathy and I were working on the contract together, there was a moment where I didn't think it was going to work out. And even then I was clear. I was like, that's not a problem because if it doesn't work out, I'm going to self publish. That's what's going to happen. Like, I just knew this is. You know, Jenny was when you have a state of readiness, things that you could not do before seem extremely doable now. And that's how it was for me. Like, putting together a table of contents was like, not something I could do. And suddenly it was very doable with wonderful people helping me and supporting me.

I love that about the state of readiness and also how you just built this network step by step of surrounding yourself with authors. It's almost like James Clear talks about taking on the identity of a person who can do it. And so you're just seeing all these people around you. And so not only having their practical support. And my book wouldn't exist without MBS either, because he got me to write a hundred words a day.

Yeah.

In December. And we used to trade check marks back and forth every day. Did you do your 100? Did you? Yes. Yes. We would just send each other a checkbox in Marco Polo and keep moving.

Amazing.

One of your gifts because you've been so focused on mostly one on one coaching. It's incredible for me to see you take on this role as author and the richness of the stories. It's like you have 20 years of stories that the best ones rise to the surface, make it in the book. Whereas someone like me, I scaled down one on one coaching and I had a harder time finding stories. So it becomes a real asset that you probably didn't even realize you had until you started really digging in.

Yeah, well, thank you for saying that. I. I thought I knew the stories were important and the stories did start coming to me, but no one has ever made the connection until now. Until you, Jenny, that, like, oh, because you've actually been a coach and not a speaker and not other things for 20 years, you actually have a library of stories to choose from. So that's a. It's a very good point. I haven't thought of it that way. Yeah.

And the insights, it's like in your brain is the big data about the psychology of going from startup to grownup, from a founder. That's right. To growing. And it's like you have that breadth and depth of detail and problem solving and case studies over and over and over and over. So it's like your book comes from that. You didn't just sit down and go, I would like to be a thought leader now. Let me just make up a book. I recorded an episode a little while back called 11th hour gremlins. And this was, for me, the stage where I was finalizing the text just before it got sent to the printer I had this weekend where, you know, I kind of mostly kept the inner critic at bay during this last book, but they kind of rushed in at the 11th hour, like, oh, my God, this is garbage. And I'm wondering for you, we are recording this just prior to the launch.

Yeah.

Are you having any 11th hour gremlins? And if so, how do you overcome them?

So I have had plenty of gremlins, as I have been.

Let'S say, on all these podcasts and some have been very high profile. And I have also, you know, written a lot and as you. You know what it's like to put yourself out there to promote the book. And I have definitely had some anxiety come up from that. Also giving a ton of talks so that I've had anxiety come up from that from. In light of or from those things I have to say about my book. I think my book is really good and I'm proud of this book and I'm proud that I'm proud of this book. And I'm very fortunate that my beau is a himself a journalist and he read my book and he said it was good. And I think it wasn't just because he was my beau. And then a few other folks have read it and said it was good. And then Jenny, you know what it's like. You gotta do the proofs and the corrections and the, all the, all the things and you gotta keep rereading it. And every time I reread it, I thought this book is really good. And then Jenny, I read it for my audiobook. Oh my God, that was such a hard time. It was so hard.

It's harder than it seems.

It's so. And I, by the way, I did tell somebody that I said I read my audiobook this weekend. It took me, you know, three days. And he looked at me and said, what? You read it over and over and over again. I was like, no.

Oh my gosh, three days is lightning fast actually to finish the read.

Thank you. Thank you. Anyway, I read it and it was hard, but it was not hard because I was concerned about my book. Because even as I read it out loud I thought it's a pretty good book. So I'm very proud of that and of all my little issues, Jenny, and all my gremlins. I'm so happy that.

Worrying about how good my book is is not one of them. Thank God.

That's awesome.

There's so many others.

And then isn't that hilarious that looking back, seeing how much fear you had for a long time prior to starting that now you're so confident. So there it goes, that state of readiness again. Because for you to be so confident, I don't think the past self would have, would have thought this was possible. Be where you are, feeling how you're feeling. So. And then we look back and we go, what was I so afraid of? Isn't that interesting too how we can look back and go, what was I making such a big deal?

Yes, that is so true.

Oh my goodness, it's so funny. Well, this has been so fun to just talk with you and hear more about your process. Just a couple rapid fire questions. How have you been freeing time in your business knowing that right now you're probably doubling down on a lot, getting ready for your launch, but in general, what do you find frees up your time to do things like write a book?

I have two assistants. One is my virtual assistant John, who's amazing and super, super, super Talented and helps with social media and with other technology stuff. And so that frees up a lot of time. And then I have another assistant. So my assistant, she's a more of a personal assistant assistant. Becky, she got pregnant in the pandemic and she's on maternity leave, so that was very inconvenient. But she found another wonderful personal assistant to help me. And her name is Jenny, and she's also fantastic. And so.

What Jenny does is things that, like, I don't want to do, like errands and dry cleaning and stuff like that. And then also helping me get organized in how to get things to people, which I need to at this point. So I think that to me is the best way that I free up my time. And I, you know, you're a systems wizard. And I'm constantly trying to upgrade my own experience of systems and my own ability to create Right. Systems and follow them. And I've made some progress on that. So whenever I have a system, it does help me quite a bit.

Well, as I say in my book.

Just kidding. Yes, yes, it is too tempting. I think now it's like once. Yes, authors say that a lot. But also it's like we poured everything we have and everything we know into this one little artifact, you know, that's true. Okay, what's a favorite business book that you've read recently? And what's a favorite of all time?

Oh, well, I'd have to say the Long Game by Dori Clark, of course, is what I've read recently, which is a fantastic book and everybody should get it. And what's. What's a favorite of all time? Okay, I'm going with Tools of Titan by, by Tools of Titans by. By Tim Ferriss. And I really loved that book. I found it to be so interesting. And little Bull, you know, like very snacks that you could digest easily. And I really found it very inspirational.

I agree. And talk about tools, tactics, little snacks of what to buy on Amazon or, you know, what book to read. Just so, so good.

Yeah.

Last question. If you could give fellow small business owners permission to do or drop something, what would it be?

Oh, oh. To do or drop. Oh, okay, do. Here's what you should do. I give you full permission to hire someone to do the stuff that you don't want to do. And I really mean cleaning your house, picking up your underwear from the floor, speaking for myself, and putting it in the washer machine, um, going to the cobbler and to get your shoes redone. People feel like I should do that. My or even cooking for you. People say I should do that myself. And I'm like, no, you should do your highest and best use for yourself. That's what you should do. Everything else, you should try to outsource if you can.

That's very brave that you would get help picking up underwear from the floor.

Yeah, whatever it is. I mean, it's just. I'm just a human being. Whatever.

I love it. What do you say? Let me just. I normally don't ask a follow up on the permission slip and I really love the one you just shared. I think this is a big hurdle for people, that I should just do it myself. It won't take that long. Just real quick, do you have any words of wisdom of like, how to go from 0 to 1 in that regard for someone who knows they kind of could benefit so much from doing it, but just has not, I would.

Say how they could do the internal state or how do they find someone?

Either way, the state of readiness. Let's close with that piece around.

I think you should encourage. I think you should really meditate on your strengths, your highest and best use your gifts and your genius. I think you should think about what would the world be like and what would your life be like if you were in your zone of genius and dealing with all those things that you're great at and that you love and that you embrace more often. And I think you should luxuriate in that. And then I think you'll find that actually getting someone to cook for you or something becomes like, actually quite a good idea.

Alyssa, thank you so much, everybody. Be sure to check out From Startup to Grown Up, Alyssa's new book. And Alyssa, where else would you like to send people they want to learn more?

Well, they can also come to my website and they can download my free 5 scripts to help you handle delicate and difficult conversations. Alyssa, alyssacon.com scripts and always come by LinkedIn or Twitter or say hi.

Awesome. I will put all the links from today's conversation in the show notes. And at some point, Alyssa and Dory are going to have a Broadway musical that they funded. Yes, there's already many that they have successfully funded. So at some point, you know, we'll see you all in New York City for one of their Broadway shows that they help produce. Thank you so much, everybody. Thanks, Alyssa for being here.

Thank you for having me, Jenny. It was really great to spend time with you.

Likewise.

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