106: Music Without Sound—How Mandy Harvey Rebuilt a Thriving Singing Career after Losing Her Hearing

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Hello everybody. Welcome back. I am delighted to be here today with Mandy Harvey. Mandy is an award winning singer, songwriter and inspirational speaker who lost her residual hearing at the age of 19. While pursuing a degree in music. Mandy tours the world performing her original music and presenting her inspirational story of never giving up and continuing to try, as she calls these messages in her new book. Well her came out last year, Sensing the Finding My Voice in a World Without Sound which came out in September of 2017. Mandy is also an ambassador for no Barriers USA which is co founded by Eric Weinenmayer, who was a previous guest on the Pivot Podcast and the person who introduced us and who said to me during our interview, you have to meet Mandy Harvey. She's so incredible. And I remember hearing Mandy perform and speak at a recent no Barriers fundraiser in New York and I was just blown away. As I started to do research for this episode, I just became so excited to talk to Mandy. And with no Barriers, she also travels the country heightening awareness to break down barriers, challenge stereotypes and lead us all toward a brighter future. Mandy, welcome to the show.

Oh well thank you so much for having me. I really am excited.

I am thrilled to have you. And of course as I was preparing to chat with you, I googled you and I looked, I went to.

Oh no.

I know.

I found your America's Got talent video on YouTube and it is just so incredible. Anyone listening, you have to go watch this video. Just search for Mandy Harvey, America's Got Talent. There was not a dry eye in the house and certainly not in my apartment. When Simon came. Powell asked what motivated you to be there. You said that after you lost your hearing you gave up, but you wanted to do more with your life than just give up. And watching your performance and seeing the standing ovation and seeing your reaction was just so incredible.

Thank you so much. It was a terrifying experience on my end. It's not something I ever imagined myself doing, but I'm so glad that I did. And the whole goal of America's Got Talent wasn't to get a golden buzzer or to get to the finals or even to try to win, but it was just to encourage other people and show a different view of what having a disability looks like and raising awareness to the fact that a lot of people have invisible barriers that we face every day. And that video that you're talking about is crazy to know. I mean, it's been seen collectively over half a million times or half a billion times. So I can't even, like, my brain can't wrap around 500 million plus views.

I know, it's incredible.

Yeah. Unreal. But it started a lot of conversations, which was the whole. The whole bigger picture goal. And I'm very, very proud of that.

As you should be. And I can imagine, because you mentioned this phrase, an invisible disability, that if somebody were to look at you and you tell the story in your book, that sometimes at airports or if you're sitting in the handicap row at the airport so you can hear announcements about gain. Not hear, but you could see announcements about gate changes.

Yeah, yeah.

That people have come up to you and said things or been rude.

Well, you know, I have Ehlers Danlos syndrome, so I have a connective tissue disorder amongst a myriad of other issues. But, you know, my body doesn't always work the way that it should. And there are a lot of times I can't walk those long distances or my legs will just buckle. And so you see me being pushed around in a wheelchair, and a lot of people say, wow, she looks way too healthy to be sick. She's got functioning legs. Why didn't she walk around? It's like, well, you're not living in my shoes and you're not a part of my world. Maybe if you stopped judging so quickly, you would find out a little bit more about the people around you. Everybody's dealing with something, you know, you're just not clued in yet.

Right.

You have to see it as a lack of education instead of them being mean.

Though, every once in a while, they're just straight up mean. But, man, you know, just said, wow, that's a really harsh lack of education.

Right, right. Well, I love your perspective that it's a lack of education and this is why the America's Got Talent triad was so beautiful, because you were helping to show so many people, and now I can't even believe it's 500 million. But to show people.

Not just the limitations, but also what's possible.

And I think you're right that we are so quick to jump to judgment, and yet we never know what anybody is carrying or what they're dealing with.

Yeah, exactly. And we also don't know our potential. You know.

There'S a lot going on.

So one thing I asked you before we hit record, because as I mentioned in Mandy's bio, but she lost her hearing completely. So Mandy is not hearing me right now. But tell listeners how we're doing this interview, because I love how even in your book, you say it's so important to share the how, the methodology, not just the mindset piece.

There's a couple of pieces going on right now. I can see you. So there is a little bit of lip reading, but mostly I have a closed captioner who is typing everything that you're saying. So.

This wonderful person who's just a number.

But they're helping me to communicate.

Is it a person or is it a machine transcription? Oh, wow.

No, it's a person. So, I mean, you have both now. But this particular.

Tool utilizes an actual captioner, so it's always nicer. I think sometimes they put in more information than the automated systems can do. Like, if you laugh, it says laughing, or if you say something loudly, it puts it in caps, you know, so you get a little bit more feel for the actual meaning than just word to word.

And let's let listeners in, too, on how you perform. So how is it that you interact with your band in order to. And I know we're kind of jumping around a little bit because that's okay. We haven't even talked about the losing your hearing at 19, but just on the mechanics. How do you perform? Because, listeners, you have to know Mandy has the most stunning voice. It is truly incredible. And, Mandy, I love watching you sign while singing and speaking. That's something really special. But many people would still be perplexed at how you're able to sing and how you're able to keep. Keep up with your band and vice versa. So I'd love if you could fill us in.

Well, most of them, they're just keeping up with me, but I grew up and found love with music. It was my entire identity. And I went to school for vocal music education, so my heart has always been with work. Working and learning and the guts of music. And when I lost my hearing, I thought that I lost all of those abilities. But in reality, I just needed to look at things in a different manner and learn to adapt and accept that I might not be able to experience music in the same way, but I can still experience music in my own. And so I started with visual tuners and seeing the notes that I was actually, you know, being able to sing right in front of my eyes, and then feeling it and marking it out on my throat so that I could have a touch and a visual confirmation of that single sound specifically. Then I worked with a lot of balloons and things that I could feel the texture on my hands and then have other people talking to them so I could gauge dynamics and understand what it felt like for how loud I would talk or how quiet I would talk. And I have to adjust myself a lot. I work on speech therapy and music.

An inordinate amount of hours every day just to keep up. But when I'm on a stage, I still have to take all of those pieces in parts. But you add another layer of complexion where you kick off your shoes and then you feel the drums through the floor and the bass you feel in your chest. Because if you ever go to a concert, you know, it replaces almost your heartbeat, it's so dense. And then for the higher frequencies, I try to feel them on my skin, but sometimes they get lost in the mix. So when I'm playing on a concert, on a stage, there's a lot of visual eye contact, and all the songs are set up ahead of time. So I know that there's eight measures before I come in, or.

This solo is 32 measures. And so there's a mixture of feeling where I'm singing, understanding the solfege, intervals that I'm going through, getting my starting note either based off of it being the last note of the song before, or really close to it, and then confirming it with a band member behind me and then counting and feeling all at the same time. So it's a lot of layers. But it's so worth it to. Because, like I said, it's part of my soul. I have to express myself.

It's really incredible how you've adapted and just you saying that you had always loved music, even as a kid, and wanted to be a music teacher. So I could imagine that when you were losing your hearing at 19, it probably felt like.

Just the dream was dying.

Well, you know, I. I had made a serious mistake of attaching my entire identity with One dream the way that I thought it should go. And growing up, I've always been hard of hearing, and I've had surgeries and ear infections, and I was the kid at the pool who wasn't allowed to get their ears wet. And I had the earplugs and the full head wrap. And it's always been a huge fear of mine that I would eventually lose my hearing completely. And then when it started to really happen.

It swallowed me for a while. But.

You know, you have two choices. You always have two choices. One, you can allow the barrier that you're up against to be too big and to give up. And every day ends up being about the same, and you just float through. Or you can make a difficult decision and say, okay, this is the cards that I've been dealt. This is the barrier that I'm facing. Let's tackle it piece by piece. The difficulty with that one is you have to be willing to fail. And everybody is so afraid. I feel a failing that they don't even try anymore. When there's nothing wrong with failure. In fact, it should be celebrated. Once you fail, you know how to do it better. And so you can take it as an opportunity to grow, to brush your knees off and stand back up and say, okay, I'm trying it again. And you go at it with a slightly different angle and you fail again. You learn something, you grow, you brush your knees off and you repeat the pattern over and over again. But at least you're doing something. You know, you're at least putting in your heart and your soul and your. You're aiming for something amazing. And a lot of times you crush that wall. It just takes you a little longer than you anticipated the first time around.

So beautifully said. I love in your book how you say that no dream is immortal. So you mentioned even just now that if you make your dream, your identity, then you're going to set yourself up for disappointment. But if you can separate those two things, you know, you're such a beautiful example of still finding a way forward. And in your book, you described that time of like you were part of the walking dead. You know, just, like, not sure what to do, how to rebuild. And it's really incredible to see how you have been willing to fail and get back up and fail and try again.

I fail on a daily basis at this point. It's almost comical how often I fail.

It's something, you know, I was just listening to a podcast with Krista Tippett and Richard Rohr, who's a I believe he's a Catholic pastor, but a really well known author. And he said that he asks God for one humiliation a day. And Krista Tippett was so surprised, and she said, why do you ask for a humiliation a day? That sounds terrible. And he said that it keeps him humble and. And it makes him laugh. And that he always learns something that even from his critics, he can learn, take 20% of what they've said, and that those are the times that he's learned the most. So maybe you're living his advice as well of, like, failing once a day. I mean, we all should be.

Oh, yeah. Well, I think everybody does anyway, so, you know, how often does your day go perfectly? You know, there's always something that goes wrong, or in my case, most of the things go wrong. You just gotta work your way through it. But as. I'm sorry, it's difficult sometimes when you have captioning to know when you're still talking and when you're not. So. I'm so sorry to interrupt you. You were talking about my dad.

Oh, yeah. Oh, my goodness.

It's really helpful even just to learn that something like that of knowing, of interrupting or seeing with captioning. Yeah, I did. I was starting to mention your dad, and I know that he played a huge role in, you know, just by him inviting you to come sing again. I'm just curious if you can share with listeners how you rebuilt and how you even dared to dream that you could continue singing after you lost your hearing.

Yeah, well, so when I. When I did, and I was dropped from the music program at csu, I moved back home. And from there, honestly, the goal was not to get back into music. The goal was to breathe in and out on my own and for that to not be painful and to communicate. And I focused on taking ASL classes and got introduced to a new community of people who were not broken, but experiencing life differently. And that gave me a lot of confidence and an ability to say yes to new ideas. And my dad suggested we play guitar together, which is something that we've done my whole childhood, so that wasn't a weird ask. And so we sat down and he was playing the guitar and I was watching the chords. And then I started to make those same chords and then play them in the same rhythm as him. And instead of being able to hear it, which bummed me out at first.

I started paying attention to feeling the instrument, feeling it on my chest, feeling it running down my arm, feeling it on my fingertips. And I started to really Experience music in a different way, and it wasn't the same. And that was hard. It's still hard. You know, it's. It would be inconceivable to say that when your entire world changes, that you're not going to mourn. You know, I still have days where I mourn the loss of my old life and how I used to experience things. But there's really not a lot of benefit that comes from living that way. So I focused on what I did have. And what I do have is the ability to feel music. Sound exists. Just because I can't absorb it in the same manner that is, you know, popular doesn't mean that sound's not there. And so from there, we started.

And he asked singing a song, learn a song to sing, which was a silly ask for me. I thought it was ridiculous, but he's my dad, and I love him and I respect him, so I said yes. And I got a visible tuner, sat down, got the sheet music, and sang painstakingly through each note individually until that little light turned green for each of them. And eight to 10 hours later, he came home from work. And I was expecting to fail.

And I found my first note, and I started to sing the song. And.

You know, for the first time, I was singing without being able to hear myself and judge myself and tell myself it wasn't good enough or tell myself that one of the notes was going to be wrong. I couldn't listen to myself, to be my worst critic. And it was the most freeing singing I've ever done in my life. And it started a whole journey of hard work and discovery of how I could be a part of a world that everybody keeps telling me I'm not supposed to be a part of. But every step along the way, I find more and more that everybody's a part of it. You know, you're just experiencing it in a unique manner. Hmm.

What an interesting realization that amongst all the things you must have been thinking and feeling in that moment of singing for the first time, that one of them was the complete absence of the inner critic voice that could judge as you were singing.

Yeah. Wow. Oh, and she's mean, you know, Girl. I know.

Totally.

Totally. Yeah. No, once she left, man, it was. It's been heaven ever since, you know? But it really did remind me in a lot of different ways that the biggest barrier I think, that we face is ourselves telling ourselves that we can't or convincing ourselves that we're not good enough or that the fear of failure is too big. To go for the risk. You know, I think if we moved out of our own way, and the world would look much different.

Speaking of invisible barriers, how did you get connected with Eric and his organization? No barriers.

I got connected with Eric because they have seen me perform at Jay's bistro in Fort Collins, and they asked. Invited me to come to a meeting and sing for their team before doing a summit. And. And I was like, all right. And so I did, and then I talked for a little bit. Then they invited me to the summit, and I became friends with Eric. But at that time, I was still pretty bitter. I was singing again, and I was a part of music, but I wasn't writing music, and I still wasn't really sharing my story. And he said, well, why aren't you writing music? Why aren't you encouraging others? Why are you not doing this and this and this? And I said, I'm afraid. And Eric was like, what's the worst that can happen?

I guess not much. You know, the worst thing that could have ever happened in my head was losing my hearing, and it happened. So what's the worst that can happen by singing a song? They don't like it, or I sing a wrong note or, you know, they. They don't like the voice that I have. Who cares? It's not going to break me down. I'm expressing myself, and I'm being honest and genuine with who I am. So there's nothing that you can take away other than the fear of me.

Being in my own way. You know, I had to get out of it. I had to tell myself that it's no big deal. I'm here, and I am me, and I'm learning to love myself for the first time.

So beautiful.

So I wrote try. I wrote try for no barriers. It's my no barrier story. Yeah, the verses are saying that, you know, I don't. I don't feel the way I used to. I don't live the way I used to. I don't love people because I'm so focused on my pain. I'm not giving out to others, But I really don't want that to be my existence. I want to. To get up and try. And then the bridge is based off of the no barrier slogan. What's within you is stronger than what's in your way. And I said, there's no one for me to blame. You know, I have a genetic flaw.

You know, everyone has their thing, But I don't have anything, any person that I can blame for my situation.

And the only thing that's in my way, you know, if what's within you is stronger than those barriers, what is my barrier? My barrier has always been me. I get in my own way. I allow fear to drive my life, and I'm utterly exhausted of it.

I know what you mean. That fear is exhausting. It's just if. When we let that lead, life gets even harder. And you talk in the book about. I thought it was really interesting, actually.

The response from some of your Christian friends about prayer. And you gave some really great advice that I would to share with listeners about the difference between sympathy, pity, and empathy. And so I'd love if you could explain that and what was helpful, even in the Christian circles, what was helpful and what wasn't, as you were learning how to try again.

Yeah, well, I mean, that could be like a really long conversation. I'll put it. I'll put some of the little nuggets of it and in a small one. But I have found that most people, when you're having a difference, when you approach life in a different manner than is the norm, quote, unquote, that they feel bad for you and they pity you and they put you in a box of your potential. Once you start pitying me, you're telling me what I am and am not capable of. And pity does not benefit me at all. It makes you feel better because, you know, it's like, oh, look at me. I. I understand that they're broken. I'm not broken. I don't. I don't give you permission to put me in this box, and I don't give you permission to see me as broken. There's nothing wrong with me. I'm just different. So, you know, if we want to move forward with our lives in a constructive way, we need to stop looking down on other people's differences and saying, okay, how can I learn what's the best thing and how I can be supportive for this person and have conversations with them, but also understand that, you know, we are all doing our best. We are all doing our best with the situation that we have. And every person is capable of doing incredible things. Absolutely incredible things. So why are we telling people that they can't? Why? It makes no sense. It just. It bothers me to no end. And when I was losing my hearing, I got nothing but pity. Just nothing. And when I had already lost my hearing, there was another world of pity. I'm sorry, but I don't give you the right.

How. How was that pity being expressed? Just so that we Can. I'd love to share with listeners how you experienced that, of what it. How it would come across.

Oh, man. In so many different ways. So many different ways. I mean, people will order food for me because they don't think I'm capable of doing it myself. People stopped talking to me and they wanted, you know, to take over responsibility. And I was like, there's what. What you know, or they just look at you and they like, oh, isn't that sad? She doesn't get to hear things. How sad. If she ever has kids, it's gonna be really difficult. You'll never get to hear them say mommy, I. You know what? Sure, I might not ever have my kids be able to hear them say, mommy, I love you, but they can sign it to me and I can still be a part of their life and I can experience it visually. It doesn't mean that they're not going to be able to say, mom, I love you. You know, I'm just experiencing it in a different way. Why don't you open your eyes for five seconds and realize that life is beautiful. It doesn't have to be cookie cutter.

Amen.

It's still beautiful.

Yes.

So well said. You mentioned signing. How was the process for you of learning asl? And then I have to say I wrote this to you in our email. But when I was in college, I bought a Pearl Jam dvd, my favorite band, one of my favorite bands of all time. And I think the song was Wish List, and there was a signer in the corner signing to the music. And I thought it was one of the most beautiful things I have ever seen. And I would just love if you could share your process of learning ASL and then what music signing is and if you work with one specific person as you tour or with different people.

So for me, I took ASL classes at a community college and then got involved with going to deaf socials and silent weekends. And it's become my primary form of communication outside of speaking, which is a lot of work. So I prefer to sign, to be honest. But asl, that's American Sign Language. It's not a universal language. Every country has their own. But what it is is it's incorporating not just the words that you're saying, but also your meaning, intention, and tone as well. So I feel like.

ASL.

Is a lot more clear with your intention, you know, because you can say I love you and then you can say, oh, I love you, or you can say I love you, you know, but when you're signing, it it's very obvious what you mean and how you're. How you're transparent, you know, how it's coming across with music. There's a lot of different ways to approach it, but my favorite is to be as expressive with music as you would be when you're listening to the song. So when they're signing the words that are coming out, it's not just signing lyrics. It's not just giving a little bit of information. You're giving the tone, you're giving the feel of the song. You're giving the emotion that the singer or the instrument is portraying in not just one piece, but all of it. The piano section, the drums, the buildup, the downfall. You know, it's a lot of information to be translated visually. And I have a lot of amazing interpreters in my life who I get to work with. One of them, her name is Amber Galloway, and she. She's got pink hair. I mean, if you look up asl with music and you see a lady with pink hair, it's probably Amber. She's unbelievable. And she has created a system for music interpreting that it's out of this world. And I'm blessed that I get to work with her a lot. And I work with my good friend Amber, or Amber Sarah Burnett. She's an interpreter that goes with me a lot of places. But I'm learning to be able to sign and sing at the same time. I do that anyway, but I want to create it to be better. I always want to improve. I always want my signs to be clearer and for the meaning to be more easily accessible.

What's important to you about signing while.

You sing, I get to translate the meaning behind the words. So, you know, some things don't come out the same. Here. Here's an example. There's a. There's a song that I wrote called Greed, and there's a line in it that says, there's no need to understand.

The sign that I use is, there's no need for us both to understand meaning. There's no need for you to understand what's happening. I fully understand what's happening, but you don't need to understand. And it's a very different meaning, but it's the same sign. And when I wrote the line, the lyric, I tended it to be, you know, don't worry. There's no need to really work hard to understand what's happening. I got this. And in English, I feel like you're really limited to one line that can be interpreted in a thousand different ways. But if you see it and you hear that line or you see that line, you're like, oh, she's being manipulative. And that's the point. That's the intention behind that line.

That's so cool. And do you still work with Annie, your service dog?

I do. She retired this year, though.

She did?

Yeah. She's 13. So she's an older lady. She's a sophisticated lady. She's awesome. I got her. When I first moved into an apartment by myself, and I was afraid. I was afraid of people coming into my house and I wouldn't know. I was afraid of sleeping through my alarm clocks. I was afraid of my apartment being caught on fire and me sleeping through an alarm and not having an ability to escape. I was just afraid of sound that I was missing out on. And she was a huge part of relief. You know, she gave me all of the sound information. And she's toured all over the U.S. you know, with me. She's been everywhere.

Wow.

And I take her on some small, you know, little. A little, you know, small trip here or there because she loves to work, but.

But, you know, she's 13. She also loves to sleep now, so.

She'S done her time. You know, everyone works so hard to retire. You know, she's got to retire, too.

What an incredible companion and relationship to have. I know you're doing some work now with music without sound. Can you explain what that is?

Yeah, well, I mean, I work very hard for my own purposes, a little selfishly, but I do teach some workshops, and I'm trying to show other people how that they can incorporate touch into how they go about music. And that goes with vibrating speaker systems. And working with not impossible labs. They're creating a wearable technology that you can feel the different aspects of music broken down piece by piece so that it's not just an overwhelming like, oh, okay, here's the rhythm. But you can feel all of the different parts. You can feel the different sections of the drums. You can feel the bass. You can feel the piano. You can feel the voice in different parts of your body and in different frequencies and different thickness of vibration. So you feel like you get a better picture of what you're actually experiencing. Stuff like that. You know, I've got a lot of ambitions to improve life, not just for me, but for a lot of people. I think that we forget a lot because we live in our own worlds that, you know, in my position, being deaf, you know, I'm constantly fighting for my basic right of communication.

You know, that's absurd. It's like when I fly on a plane, I don't get any announcements, I don't get any warnings. I don't get any. Anything. And even the movies, they've got two that are closed captioned, if they're closed captioned and if the closed captions are working and just basic information. If something happened that was wrong recently, I was in the hospital because I had pneumonia and I didn't have any communication as to what treatment was being done to my body, you know, and some of those medications are really dangerous with my condition. And so it's absolutely bizarre that. That so much can happen to you and. And you don't. You just don't even know what's going on. And that has to change. And it will change. It's. It has to change.

Wow, that's really shocking.

And interesting to hear. These different contexts, like flying on a plane, being at the hospital, that there are all of these situations that have so much room for improvement and differing perspective. And then on the other side of the spectrum, I love what you said about enriching the music, performing and even listening experience, both for those who have their hearing and those who don't. I have to say that watching you perform was incredible. And I love, like, the signing adds so much to everybody in the room.

I think so too. Yeah. It bridges a gap.

Yes, yes. And it's. Your soul shines. It really does. And I know how important music is to you, and I just have to say that it's really incredible to see you in action. And I love that you're putting your mind, your brilliant mind, toward creating more awareness for some of the situations that you've had to figure out on your own and can help hopefully create a path for those who are coming after you. And you're just such a light and a leader in this way.

Well, I'm surrounded by a lot of people who are also trying to do the same thing. So I just see myself as. As one of the group, you know, running really hard and to make a difference. So if, you know, when we succeed, we succeed together. When we fail, we fail together. So I'm just trying to help the way that I can for us to succeed.

I love it. If you could leave listeners with one piece of advice or something that they can, an experiment they can try in their own lives, what would it be?

If I could leave people with a music advice, I would say kick off your shoes and put a speaker on the floor and feel music through the floor. Take a moment to Try to experience something in a different manner. If I was to give advice for a general life, stop being afraid to fail, because what ends up happening is you're just afraid to try. There's nothing wrong with failure. It's one of the biggest and best opportunities for growth and for change. And every time we fail, we realize where the holes are in the system that need to be fixed. So embrace failure and learn to love yourself, regardless of what barriers that you're facing. Because you're beautiful, you're just unique.

I love also occurred to me as I was asking that question that I said for listeners. And then I realized, of course, per today's conversation, that not everyone can receive these episodes by listening. So I'm curious, from your perspective, what would make podcasts this medium that is growing easier to absorb the content? And are there ways you already have other than reading transcripts? And maybe that's the main one.

Honestly, that is the main one. I think. Transcriptions. Most podcasts don't have transcriptions.

Something we gotta change.

Yeah, I mean eventually it would be amazing to see some of these podcasts being done and then there would be, you know, a video of them talking and it being captioned so that you can see their faces or having it signed. But even just basic transcriptions is so rare that it would be wonderful for that access and not just for it to be and in English, once it's translated once. I mean, you have the potential of hopefully putting it in a myriad of different languages so that it's inclusive not to people who are just hard of hearing or deaf, but to people who don't understand English, you know, and they want to and they only speak Portuguese to have it be in Portuguese, you know.

Great advice. Well, I will make sure that this episode and hopefully many more in the future, but that this one for sure is transcribed. And maybe we can also work together offline and maybe we can get someone who can sign it or two people who would be able to sign it so that we could have it signed. Transcription. I think that would be really cool.

I love it.

Thanks so much for listening to this episode of the Pivot podcast. Make sure you don't miss an episode or my insider tips and templates by signing up for Pivot List, a curated twice monthly newsletter where I share the inside scoop on what I'm reading, watching, listening to and the latest tools I'm geeking out on. Sign up@pivotmethod.com pivotlist get show notes from this episode@pivotmethod.com pull podcast and connect with me on Twitter at Jenny Blake.

Remember, build first, then your courage will follow. Hasn't it always.