107: (Un)Medicating Grief—Recovering Feeling After Decades on Anti-Depressants with Brooke Siem

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What's next? This is a question we're all having to ask and answer more frequently. I'm Jenny Blake, your host of the Pivot podcast and author of Pivot. The only move that matters is your next one.

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Hello everybody. Welcome back. I am delighted to be here today with Brooke Seam, who I met through a mutual friend, Julie, and have gotten to follow her and her story ever since. And I just think the work that Brooke is doing in the world and who she is is so incredible. This is a woman of many talents. She's a speaker, writer and chef and also trained ballerina and crossfitter who spent eight years in the New York City food and wine industry before an opportunity to travel around the world with remote year fell into her lap. Despite a career that included honors such as Zagat's 30 under 30, becoming a food Network chopped Champion and co founding Prohibition Bakery which had boozy cupcakes that were so delicious and authoring a book of the same name, Brooks quote successful Manhattan life also fueled a lifelong battle with depression. Prescribed antidepressant and anti anxiety drugs at 15 years old after her father death, the opportunity for a life abroad sparked a realization for her that she had been heavily medicated for half of her life. That's when she decided to make massive changes. She booked a one way ticket to Malaysia and then she got off all the prescription drugs two years and 17 countries later. Brooks primary focus now is on advocating for mental health and wellness without the use of antidepressants and anti anxiety drugs, though she believes that these can have their place on the road to healing. Her own experience has taught her that these medications are often poorly monitored by doctors, prescribed without thought of long term consequences, and often prioritize the notion of existing versus thriving. Her goal is to show that it is possible to live a joyful, centered life without the use of antidepressants, no matter how far down the rabbit hole we once were Brooke, welcome to the show.

Thanks for having me.

You have such an incredible story. And I watched your legacy project video in which you share the prospect of detoxing after over 15 years on these medications. And as I reflect on you and your journey, it seems that there are two very epic pivot points. That's like a really kind of terrible word label for them because it's so much bigger than that. But being put on these medications at 15 to manage your grief on, as you call it, other people's timeline, and then the decision and realization that you didn't even know who you were and to go off of them. So I would love if maybe we just dive in at the point of awakening or awareness that remote year sparked, of choosing to even try to detox, even though that prospect was terrifying at the time.

Well, it's interesting that you say that those are two of the biggest pivot points in my life, because, you know, in being familiar with your work, I've always thought of my pivot points as career decisions, but it's really never occurred to me until just now. There are, you know, broader pivot points that kind of really determine our whole life. So that's, you know, that's interesting. But you're right.

It's like of your inner landscape. It's what has seemed deeper than all the career choices and often probably affected them along the way.

Absolutely. But I think too, is that, like pivot points, at least in career, they feel big, they feel monumental. They often have, like, a lot of thought that's gone into it, whether or not you're thinking of changing careers or a new promotion comes down the pipeline or whatever it is. There's usually this big feeling of knowing that you're on the precipice of a decision. Whereas, at least in my life, these two pivot points that you just mentioned did not feel big at all. They didn't feel like. They didn't feel like I was gonna change my entire life or the trajectory of my life by making one choice or another. You know, when I, especially when I was at first medicated, I was also, you know, deep in grief. And it only had only been a few months after, since my father had passed. So my memory of that is very fuzzy at best. I have a little bit of information that's been given to me by people who are around me at the time, but I don't really remember much other than generally, you know, being a fairly young 15 year old. So I wasn't really standing up for myself or making too many of my own decisions. And you know, when the offer to feel better was put on the table, my reaction was like, okay, why not? And then, you know, we kind of just one day just started going through the process of finding a combination of drugs. And then that's just how it happened. It was one day things were a little different. And you know, that then sent the butterfly flapping into totally different path. But when I made the choice to get off the drugs, it was also kind of a similar feeling of like it not really being a very big deal. It was. And I. And I think that like, in hindsight that seems ridiculous given that now that my entire focus and you know, kind of the thing I feel like I was put on this earth to do has come from this one little decision. But at the time, you know, I believe that my system was just so depressed, not only emotionally, but just physically, that my reactions to anything were almost non existent. So the choice to get off medication and realizing that I had spent so much of my life on was really just kind of like, huh, well, that's interesting. And then I kind of went about my day and it kind of slowly emerged as something that I needed to do as opposed to this massive like holy shit moment.

And then eventually I got there, especially once I started getting off the medication and I realized how much of an impact it was having on my life. But right in that moment, it was very much just like, huh, well that's interesting. I'm not really sure what I'm going to do about that.

Right. I know you mentioned that in order to go on this remote year where they take 75 digital nomads traveling around the world for a year, that you had a very logistical problem that you couldn't carry these bags and bags of prescription drugs with you. So isn't that fascinating that it took a logistical glitch to have you question in the first place. Well, what is life without these drugs that it didn't come from? And this is what's so interesting about our medical system. And girl, I was reading the excerpts of your book in progress. I remember when I moved to New York too, the doctors were so infuriating. Some of them like bullying. It's confusing here. It's hard to find a good general practitioner. And so if any doctor at any point along the chain of the last 15 years for you said, hey, do you really need to be on these? Or let's take you off or let's taper you off, it's just you had to come to that insight on Your own right.

I had to come to that insight. And there was. There was nothing that was happening that would have moved this process along faster. I mean, it was at the point where, at best, I was going in to see my GP maybe once a year, I think even every 18 months, really was kind of about as frequently as he required me to come in to basically show up and prove that I was alive, I think, and then he would just blindly refill everything and send me on my way. So there was really no reason for me to ever consider getting off of them because, like, you know, I had had experiences with missing a day because, you know, there was a holiday and the pharmacy was closed or I had just forgotten to call my prescription in or something. And even just one day starts to send you to a place that's very physically uncomfortable. So my thoughts were, if it's that physically uncomfortable to be off them for one day, why would I ever want. Want to go off of them? Also, what frame of reference do I have for a life that exists without them? Furthermore, I was still very depressed while on them, and I figured if I'm this depressed on medication, I'm, you know, going to not be functional off of them. It never occurred to me that perhaps the medication wasn't right for me or that I had long gone through discontinuation symptoms, which are often very similar to symptoms of depression, or that the medications themselves just were no longer working and the depression that I was feeling was an accurate representation of where I was at the time. None of this was ever discussed with me, primarily because I wasn't getting my meds from a psychiatrist or psychologist or psychiatrist, excuse me. You know, that's not to say that all psychiatrists overlook their patients or whatever it is. I just personally happen to have one bad experience after another.

It's the consequences. You said.

There was the subtle feeling of living under the impression that you were broken, that, oh, yes, by being put on these drugs at that age. And then what you just described is so logical. Like, if there were physical. What were some of the physical withdrawal symptoms after even a day?

The most obvious one to me, when I had skipped something for a day or even for like, you know, five or six hours later, was that I started to. My heart started to race and miss beats or beat irregularly in a way that felt most like if you had just, you know, taken a gallon of coffee in. You know, I drink a lot of caffeine as it is, but it's sort of similar to just having way too much caffeine and, you know, I would kind of get a little clammy, a little shaky, feel like the world was a bit, you know, like a nanosecond behind. Like I couldn't register it right on time. Like I had to focus on everything a little bit more. Just like I had way too much caffeine. And then that was as far as I ever got. I never really got more than a day because as soon as that started happening, I would have an oh, crap moment and like run to the pharmacy and take care of it. And you know, they are usually, if I needed a refill, they would give you like one or two to get you through while the doctor got his refill in or whatever it was. So those were just the initial symptoms. And then the much more intense symptoms happened once I did decide to actually get off the drugs entirely. And then I was. Then we went on a journey of weeks to many, many months of bizarre symptoms that I never really expected.

Like what?

Well, I mean, so there's, you know, there's different kinds of drugs and they each have. The doctors told me that they, you know, it's different for everybody else or it's different for everybody. I don't really know, you know, what other people have experienced too much, but I have heard that they've had similar experiences to me. The first drug I got off of had a very short half life. So it was, was explained to me that, like, the shorter the half life on a drug, the more intense the symptoms are during withdrawal, but the quicker they get out of your system.

So you were on five drugs total, is that right?

I was on. Well, so I was on between four to seven drugs for a period of 15 years, depending on what was going on. They weren't all, they weren't all antidepressants and anxiety drugs, but they were all related to symptoms and bizarre things that kind of happened after my father died. So looking back on it, I believe that these were all manifestations of grief and pain one way or the other. And, you know, ultimately they were all just medicated to try and get fixed because I'm off all the drugs now, even the ones that weren't, you know, they were for like. For example, I was diagnosed with a low functioning high thyroid when I was at like 16 or something. And so I spent part of these 15 years on thyroid medication, which theoretically is something that's not supposed to, supposed to be a lifelong thing, you know, But I'm not taking the drugs anymore and my thyroid's fine. So all the symptoms that came from the thyroid. Happened in the year after my father died. I had a mysterious stomach illness where I would just start puking all the time. So they gave me a stomach drug. And it was just all of these things that by the time it all got mixed together and I started getting off of them, it was impossible to tell what way was up.

Do you know how many pills you've taken over your lifetime or you guesstimated?

I did. I did. I averaged it. So I averaged that I had taken something like 5.5.75 or close to 6, I don't know, in my life, and multiplied it out. It's about 32,000 bills total. Yeah. Because I really couldn't, you know, like say exactly the exact number, but it seemed pretty.

It's a good exercise. And.

Just to imagine.

It's a good exercise regardless. Right.

To imagine weaning your body off of that. And not to mention that the initial or original grief is still in there. You know, as you've been. I know you've been doing work with a spiritual teacher. We'll come back to that, because I'm so fascinated. But the trauma lives in your body. And I know you describe. Even your dad had episodes, episodes of rage, thankfully never directed at you or your mom. But even as you were growing up, he had. Was bipolar and had. So there was already trauma and grief in your body. Yes. So just by going off the pills, 30,000 plus pills 15 years later doesn't mean that you have. I mean, you probably actually had to stare that down in addition to the physical symptoms, which I know I interrupted you, but would love to hear more of what you were experiencing physically and mentally, emotionally.

Well, that's kind of where everything converged in a way that was just so unexpected to me. And you know, lately there was. There was a piece in the New York Times in April, early April, about getting off to you. Yeah, so. And I've been watching that, like very intently because that piece came out and it was the first national, you know, high profile piece I've seen about withdrawal, about withdrawal symptoms.

Just so it's called. Many people taking antidepressants discover they cannot quit.

Cannot quit. Yeah. And it's about a 3,000 word piece that title gives away what's going on. But the backlash of that I found to be completely fascinating. I mean, there are doctors from all different realms of the field and scientists and whatnot were chiming in, talking about how the article did a disservice to people on antidepressants that people Who. There was a whole bunch of articles that popped up about, like, the shame in TAP or that there should be no shame in taking antidepressants. And that, like, the myth of this withdrawal thing needed to stop. And I was just kind of surprised that the shift in stigma went, you know, seemed to go back in the day. It was like, if you're taking antidepressants, there was a big stigma. And then what I've noticed in the past few months is that there's this stigma about getting off them and staying off them and figuring out how to live your life without them, because so many people can't figure out how to do that. And I think one of the biggest reasons why people can't figure out how to do that is because there's absolutely no education or introduction into a world in which you are a totally different person than you were when you started taking the drugs. And so you're kind of forced into what, to me, both physically and emotionally, felt like a second puberty. And that is honestly the best way I can describe it, because I was 30 years old when I went on the drugs the first time. I was. You know, I was a pretty serious dancer. I was kind of a little late to the puberty game to begin with, but that's about when I was put on the drug. So all of this development that was supposed to happen for me happened under the influence of various medications. And so here I am, you know, 30. Obviously, my life is totally different than it was when I was 15, and yet I was going through withdrawal symptoms that, you know, ranged from.

About three, four days after I got off the first drug I was off of. I literally got caught in the rain in New York. You know, sometimes in New York in the spring, it just starts raining out of nowhere. You know.

It was the first time that that had happened to me since I had gotten off the drugs. And I was suddenly so overwhelmed with the feeling of the raindrops on my skin, because I could feel the individual raindrops. And I had just realized that I had not actually felt rain like this before. And it was this moment that just. This was, you know, the pivot moment for me that kind of blew everything open where it was like, if this is what it feels like to stand in the rain, what else is different? And everything started changing. I mean, my vision got better. My hearing became so sensitive that I was having trouble, like, actually even just going out into New York because it was so loud, and I couldn't. I couldn't handle the input. My Body became far more sensitive to pain. Both. Like, if I got a paper cut or stubbed my toe or, you know, working out at the gym, my pain tolerance just absolutely plummeted, which was something that I had kind of prided myself on for a long time. My mind went totally nuts. I had very intense visions of, you know, terrible things that were. You know, I would just be walking down the street and, you know, I would see a person in front of me. Just, like, they would be coming towards me, and all of a sudden, an image would flash in my head that they were bloodied and murdered. I couldn't stand to wear very many clothes because they were all super itchy. My tastes changed. Like, the food I ate changed, the music I listened to. I wasn't the same. I couldn't watch the same things on tv. Like, I just had different response to everything. And it made me just. It put me into a place where I was like, I have no idea who this person is, because I couldn't, you know, suddenly. I used to watch Dateline all the time, which is kind of an amusing side note, because what I believe is that it was one of these things where I actually got a little bit of an emotional response because you'd see other people go through terrible things and get murdered on tv. And. And as terrible as it is to say, I think I was so kind of. My emotions were just so repressed that I couldn't get. I couldn't get a response out of myself for anything else. And so I used to watch Dateline constantly. And then as soon as I started getting off the meds, I was just horrified. And I would get nauseous when I watched it. And, like, I couldn't really reconcile why this was happening at the time. You know, then you throw in all the intense emotional swings and.

Shaking and crying and, you know, breaking down in the subway for no reason at all. I mean, my mom was the only person I was talking to on a regular basis. She said the intonation in my voice was different. Like, it's just so many things were different. And on top of that, all of this grief, all of this pain, all of these things that had been suppressed for so long were just kind of suddenly coming through. And I was so angry that I was destroying, you know, literally physically destroying things in my apartment. I was, you know, like, I would hit myself in order to just get the energy out. And I didn't know how to deal with any of this. And so obviously, I don't know. You know, I don't Know what other people's individual experiences are. But when you come out of the other side of this and you are forced to deal with a person that you both don't understand, but also, you know, maybe you're older, your life situation is different, whatever it is, you have to get to know yourself through a lens that you're unfamiliar with, and you have to do it as an adult who's supposed to have their shit together where it's not acceptable to break down or have these big emotional swings or outbursts. So what do you do? And, you know, on top of that, you throw in the fact that whether or not it's insurance issues or just scheduling issues, like most, maybe you can't get in to see someone to talk to them when you need to. You know, for me, it did no good to have an appointment with a. With a therapist three weeks down the road when I was having problems now, and I, you know, and I wasn't in a position to be able to call them up and have an emergency appointment. So, like, what do you do? You realize the drugs are still on your cabinet and you go back to them because that is the most logical, reasonable, safe, reliable response.

So powerful, what you're describing. And you say in the book. Is it okay if I read a little excerpt?

Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

But now the tears are constant and time can't move fast enough. I'm profoundly sad about nothing and everything all at once. I am tired of crying in private and tired of trying to keep it together in public. I am jealous of the children who get to sit in their stupid strollers and cry at the top of their lungs while everyone ignores them and they feel what they need to feel. They get to scream and I don't.

Yeah, I had. That realization happened to me. I had to go to a Best Buy about. Fix my computer maybe like a month and a half or so into this process. And I just remember this kid was just screaming at the top of its lungs and Best Buy and nobody. I was. I was. I mean, I'm so sensitive to hearing now, and I was. It was. It was so bad for me that I just, like, I think I left without even getting what I needed to get in because I was shaking and couldn't handle the sound. But I was also just so mad that it was so acceptable to be small and have a tantrum in a public place and just get to get it out. And that there was no outlet for me to do that, let alone anybody who feels that. And I was. I was so angry about it. And I just, it just. Even now, I don't really quite know how to rectify that. Like, I understand that we need to be, you know, put together in society and figure out how to manage our emotions and whatnot. But on the other hand, like, there's a part of me that just wants it to be acceptable to have a place where grown adults can just go scream and get whatever they need out of their system.

I think they've got. They're called rage rooms.

Yeah.

They'Re rooms.

Yes. Where you can go and like beat old TVs with a baseball bat, throw dishes at the wall. And Tosha Silver recommends taking a coconut and going to like rocks and just breaking coconut. And actually I've been lucky enough to go on vacation with Brooke and she is a tree climbing mast. So Brooke, actually you. If anyone's qualified to go climb a tree and get a coconut and bust it open, I've seen you do this.

I have done it. Yeah, it's true. Yeah. And then at least then you have a delicious coconut to enjoy afterwards as a reward for getting out all your rage.

Totally. And you said that on the medicine you used to sleep through these feelings. You said, it's not that I didn't get angry or have the urge to scream. I was always angry. So much that it was as normal as my heartbeat. When the rage built up, it stuck in my throat and tightened my chest in a way that reminded me of being a child and sleep was the antidote. Deep in slumber, I wasn't a threat to myself or to the world around me. Not peaceful, but passive and controllable.

Oh yeah, I just would take a nap all the time. I was an expert napper.

Just that difference between peaceful and equanimity that you're finding now versus passive and controllable. The same thing about trying to manage the grief. You might have been managed, but it wasn't processed. It wasn't.

No.

So you. I think it's so powerful how you describe that when you're going through detox and you're so sensitive and I know New York City was very challenging for you at this time, understandably that it would have been so easy to go back to the cabinet and just say, well, clearly I'm better on the meds than off. What helped you make it through? I could imagine there were some real down and dark days where you felt it was a futile attempt to. Even as you're describing, you almost are going through puberty for the first time or getting to know yourself. For the first time as an adult. So how, what carried you through?

There were a few things at work, I think that, you know, I had kind of just a little bit on a whim, booked this, you know, one way ticket to Malaysia and put a down payment on remote year. And they're just. There was kind of a no way out feeling like I knew that I had to, I knew that I at least had to get on the plane. I really like could not even fathom the idea of doing a whole year, but I knew I had to get on a plane and I had put all of these other parts of my life in motion. And it was up, it was up. It was complete upheaval because I had to deal with my business. That was a physical location. I had to deal with my business partner who understandably wasn't so thrilled with my decision. I had an apartment and a dog and I had to deal with everything from vaccinations and all of these things and finding a subletter and whatnot. So I had a lot of.

Things to occupy me and reasons to keep moving. However, I also, in between all these really dark moments, and.

They far outweighed the good. But I did notice that I was having these little, little tiny moments of feeling like there was a piece of me inside of me that I didn't know yet, but was more comfortable with and felt more familiar and more warm than any piece of me that I could kind of really interacted with as an adult. And it was those little things that I started to hold onto. You know, it was like I, you know, I used to just use sleep as the antidote. So I could easily take a three hour nap and sleep for 12 hours at night if, you know, I had the time. But once I started getting off the medications, I stopped sleeping much at all. So suddenly I was up at one in the morning wondering what to do with myself. And so I started painting, which is not something I'm good at, nor something I had ever done before. But I, for the first time in my life, I felt creative and I wanted to do that. And I liked the way that felt. You know, I noticed that my writing, I was doing some freelancing at the time, started to become easier. I would catch myself, you know, giggling stupidly at television shows in a way I hadn't done before, even if I had seen them before. Every once in a while my mom would tell me that, you know, she had heard me sound up on the phone as opposed to down. And so I started to just lean into the fact that, okay, if there's. If I'm able to feel this, you know, for one moment, you know, the goal is now to make it two moments back to back, as opposed to, you know, just one moment followed by ten crappy ones. So I held onto that. And then also that's when I started working with Edward and Compassion Key, which was this spiritual. Spiritual therapy, if you will, that really started to reframe the reasons why I was feeling like I was feeling. And it gave me some validation in my emotions and helped me to release everything. So I did feel that I was actually getting better, even though the, you know, the road to healing was really, really long and had no end at the time. Yeah.

I would love to talk about your work with Edward, and I'll put all these links in the show notes. One thing Brooke and I realized when we were getting to know each other is we both have. We had this secret spiritual side. You know, when I started talking about past lives on the podcast, she's like, I love. You know, we, like, exchanged emails about when we were on vacation, we were pulling oracle cards and.

Yeah.

And I know you and your mom, like you. You do have this background that's very spiritual and that's very sensitive. Like, that's. That's what's so interesting to me that at the. At the heart of all of this, you're such an intuitive, spiritual, sensitive person.

Yeah.

And it makes me smile, like, to read about your work with Edward and hear about it. And I would love for you to share more of how you found a spiritual therapist and got over your. Any hesitations you had about it being woo, woo, and. And then. Which is a term I now reject, by the way. I say let's go all out with it. It's just. Yeah, it can be the new normal. And if someone doesn't like it, they.

Don'T have to give your own thing. Whatever.

Yeah. But I also found it very interesting, your conversation with him and his advice or wisdom around.

Why this had all happened. And that a lot of times people want to find the silver lining. And I'm curious to hear your take on that as part of your.

Sharing your work with Eduard is how you reconciled the why of all this. And even maybe, I don't know if you believe in the silver lining or not. I would love to hear your thoughts.

Yeah. Well, so, you know, I was kind of raised in a household that was very. You know, my mom is incredibly spiritual and powerful. And, you know, I remember picking angel cards when I was 5 or 6 and, you know, just kind of growing up in this environment that was certainly not religious, but definitely acknowledged the.

Greater. The things we might not really know about in this plane. And so I've always been open to that idea, but found that as I was a teenager and going into my early adulthood and whatnot, that I had a very hard time reconciling all of that with what I was feeling, which was, you know, intense depression and dissatisfaction with my life and feeling like I was just kind of the victim of all sorts of circumstances that, you know, we're not tragic enough to really complain about all the time, but we're still, you know, certainly. Certainly I wasn't, you know, anointed with the. With gold or anything.

So I struggled through that a lot. And then it kind of just got to a point where this was in the fall of 2015 is kind of where I first saw something about Remote Year. I was really kind of at the absolute bottom as far as, you know, my. My depression and where I was in my life and career. And I was just at a point where I was open to absolutely anything because it just. Whatever I was doing was not working. And, you know, I was on the cusp of turning 32. So even though I have never really been one to care about how old I am, like the age itself, turning 30 did offer a lot of reflection, especially, you know, that's when I realized I had spent half my life on drugs and blah, blah, blah. So as we kind of come around and I turned 30 and whatnot, my mom had been, you know, getting. She had been, you know, ingrained in this more spiritual world, and she had heard a man named Edward Mannix talk on a radio show about his process of healing called Compassion Key. And she had actually done a session with him and basically said that it was, you know, huge for her and totally transformative. And she just kind of kept saying, I think if you're open to it, we should, you know, we should try this. And I was at a point at which I was willing to try anything. And so I kind of, you know, we made this appointment. I was already. I was already about a month into detox when I finally got on the phone with him. And I just. I mean, it's all recorded, too. It's all done remotely, so it was all. I have the actual recordings of all of our sessions. And if you go back and listen to it, like, I'm basically crying, like, when I say hello to him on the phone. It just. I was just so low at that Point. And, you know, here was a person who didn't try to.

Teach me how to cope. He wasn't trying to, you know, tell me that my brain was broken and that's why I was feeling the way I was feeling. And, you know, the solution wasn't a pill like I got from traditional doctors because I didn't want that anymore. He also told me that he thought it was possible to heal because his philosophy was that we have all of these experiences that we've had both in this world, in this life, and in, you know, lives before us that kind of all converged together and influence all of our decisions and all the terrible things that have happened to us or all the good things that have happened to us or whatever karma we've created projects into the world that we're in right now and that we can clear that and release it and heal it and, you know, effectively, like, wipe off the lens of our life by sending ourselves self compassion and exploring the reasons why we might be feeling some of the things we're feeling that aren't necessarily tangible in experiences that happen in this world. So, you know, as kind of bizarre as that sounded, it also just resonated because he was telling me something I hadn't heard before, and I wanted to believe that it was possible. And he also had this lovely, calming intonation in his voice, and I just felt so good talking to him, so I kind of said, all right, well, let's. Let's try this. And I was just completely open. And basically, you know, each one of our sessions involved a little bit of an exploration into, you know, an issue that I had believed was a long standing, chronic, incurable thing that I was born with. Whether or not that was depression or eating disorders or, you know, even I had this bizarre ant phobia. So, like, whatever it was, I just kind of thought that that's something I came in with and was like, you know, my cross to bear. But we would talk about it and then explore it. And for me, I tend to be very visual. So I would have, you know, I'd be. Have my eyes closed, and I might see a lot of things that were very visual in my head. And we would talk about what I was seeing and then effectively send compassion to whatever I was seeing that would very, very clearly throughout the process, like, kind of build to build to a point where there would just be a ton of emotion attached to it because, you know, I'd be sobbing into the phone or whatever it was, and then it would just kind of release and Let go. And it was the first time in my life that I had felt relief from these sorts of things which just gave. Encouraged me to keep going. So, you know, that's kind of a little bit of an overview of the process. It's obviously, it's a little difficult to explain. It's kind of needs to be felt or experienced a little bit. But it just convinced me that as soon as I saw these things start to get better quickly, it convinced me that, you know, all of the issues in my life that I had believed were permanent were. Did not need to be permanent, and that I had the power to rewrite that narrative.

But I needed a little help to figure out how to do that.

I find self compassion.

I can relate to a lot of what you shared. Even though we have different life experiences. There's a certain element of all this, even I know, with. For you, with ballet and culinary school and starting a business where the work ethic and like, there's a certain being tough on oneself. I don't know if you relate to perfectionism at all throughout all that.

That I used to really eschew, like self love, self compassion. I just, like, that's not for me, but it's the thing that works. It's the thing that works. And I read the book Nonviolent Communication, which is actually highly recommended. It's incredibly powerful. I'll link to it in the show notes. I've heard the book on tape or the audible version is fantastic. There's a live lecture that he did that's been highly recommended. There's one section on self compassion, like nonviolent communication with oneself. And that has been transformative for me that I didn't see it coming. And now when I get upset, I used to beat myself up and say, why are you feeling that way? What's wrong with you? And now I, when I remember, I counsel myself like a friend, like, oh.

Hey, I can understand.

I can see why you're feeling down about that. And it's a game changer. And it's just shocking to me that I don't know, man. It's like, here's something we should be teaching in school, but I would love to hear, like, how you practically apply self compassion. How does that come into your life now?

Right? So for me.

I ended up working with Edward for about a year, about a year straight. And so I was able to kind of get to know the process that he uses and he created. And now I've done it enough where very often I can use it on myself.

And kind of go through the process in a more formal way, but with myself. So, you know, the easiest way for me to do it is just to basically start with the phrase I'm so sorry. So, you know, it's like if I'm really angry or irritated about something, then even just kind of sitting alone by myself in the shower and saying out loud like, I'm so sorry you're angry, and just kind of going with whatever feelings or emotions or whatnot comes into my. Into my mind, you know, I could potentially stand there for 10 minutes saying what appears to be a bizarre range of phrases that might start with, I'm so sorry you're angry, and end up with like, I'm so sorry, you know, you didn't get that bicycle you wanted when you're five years old. And the next thing you know, you're like, you know, what.

What?

You know, how did. How did we get from point A to point B? But it doesn't really matter. The bottom line is that it just kind of like, goes. Goes to this point where I can feel it in my body if I'm on the right track, something that's kind of buried within me. And simply using the phrase I'm so sorry is like, this simple way to give myself compassion that doesn't. Like, I don't have to think too hard about it. I just take the emotion, throw I'm so sorry in front of it and see where that takes me. I also visualize a lot, like, if I'm having a physical issue, for example, like.

You know, like a hipish, like I've had, you know, it's like a little bit of a lingering hip issue from an old injury that just kind of won't go away, you know, I'll kind of mentally just put my hip or whatever it is, like, you know, in front of me in my head and talk to it and give my hip compassion, like, I'm so sorry you have to support the weight of my whole body or whatever it is and just kind of watch how it changes. And for me, it actually physically changes in my head from something that might, you know, be kind of red and throbbing to something that's tired and wants to lie down or, you know, whatever it is. Like, it's. It's. It's bizarre when you say it out loud. And to hear that you just kind of have a conversation with yourself and see what the parts of you that are wounded have to say. But if you're able to do that in a place where you kind of like, don't judge whatever the hell comes out of your body or your mind, and then you just accept it and give it some love. And, you know, when you're done, you know, take it back in and turn off the shower and go about your day. Like, it's kind of, it's, it's just, it's transformative for me.

It really does diffuse things.

Yeah, it just, and it kind of, even in a way, like when you hear yourself saying some of this stuff or thinking this, some of this stuff, there's, you know, it kind of breaks the, it breaks the, you know, self identification pattern a little bit. So you, you're a little bit aware of how ridiculous it is, which also just kind of diffuses the issue, you know, in a way it's kind of, you're like laughing at yourself for being so upset about whatever it is. And then you could kind of shrug your shoulders and say, all right, it is what it is and move on.

Yeah, I know. For me, it's also dropping the.

Self help. There's like a self help enlightenment bar.

Yeah.

Somehow set for myself. Like, but anytime I fall short of just total and utter enlightenment and equanimity, I'm like thinking that I'm a failure. And sometimes it just helps me, me to realize like, oh my gosh, imagine you're human. Who knew? Like, who knew that we're not robots and we're not supposed to be and just feel those ups and downs.

So tell us what you're. Okay, I, I don't have the exact timeline, so tell us how long you've been detoxed. And I know you're now living in Vancouver with your boyfriend, although you say still effectively homeless.

Yeah, categorically homeless.

Categorically homeless. Working on a book and obsessed with tiny houses. So take that wherever you want. I would just love to hear a snapshot of life right now.

Yeah, so it is, I would say I'm approaching a two year anniversary of the la. Getting off the last drug. I got off my last drug in July of 2016, so we're almost there. I would say that that last one I got off of though had a much longer half life. So I believe I was still feeling withdrawal symptoms for that through about January or February of 2017.

And I was traveling during that time as well. So I had to, you know, each place I went to, like managed to bring up a whole host of issues that was very fun to deal with but also kind of just expedited the process. I think so. But yeah, so it's about two years since then. And, you know, I consider myself fully cured from, you know, from clinical depression or anxiety, that is. So that's not to say I don't like, still get down or get worried about things, but I just am able to manage it in a way where it doesn't consume me and it doesn't fully send me down, you know, a hole that I can't dig myself out of. So it certainly, you know, would. I would never. I don't think a clinical label could ever really be put on it anymore because I can. I can feel the difference. So. Yeah, but I. Ever since I started traveling in 2016, I kind of, you know, I changed my mailing address to my mom's house and I move around once every four weeks. At this point, I would say Vancouver is my home base right now. But I come here just about month on a month off. And then the rest of the time I'm either traveling for work or just spending much more time at home with my family. It's kind of another thing that's come from all of this is my priorities have really shifted and I just don't feel the need to look for validation in my career, whatever is coming in externally when for me, it's so much more important to like, spend as much time with my family as I can or with the people who are important to me. And, you know, I've created a bunch, what feels like a much smaller life than what I was living, which is bizarre because I've done a lot more, but it feels much smaller and more resonant with me, which is probably where the tiny house comes in. Like, at this point, I just don't have that much stuff. I can fit most of it into a suitcase and, you know, maybe a couple of boxes because I have a lot of kitchen stuff. But I just like the idea of being mobile and also being condensed, but also having a space that's totally my own. So, you know, I'll just like, when I'm bored, I'll just like go fantasize about pieces of land in the middle of Nevada desert and then, you know, like, see what the latest in tiny houses is and, you know, build my magical future where, you know, I have to build a septic tank myself and figure out how to get power. And then, you know, then I go down solar power panels and it just, it turns into a whole thing that seems entirely impractical, but it's. It's an amusing way to pass the time.

Well, I, like you wrote to your Newsletter list. And you said you want to have a tiny house community, but really far away from each other. Like, you don't want to be so social that they're right next to each other.

No, I would like to look out and see nature, but, like, know that I could walk five minutes and find.

Some more to see. I love watching, like, tiny homes. What is it? House Hunters? Tiny House Edition.

Right.

Even though they're all exactly the same, like, they follow the exact same formula, I feel I effectively live in a tiny house in New York.

Yes.

So it makes me feel better that people actually seek out this size home. So there's a lot to like. I like. I love how you said you've created a much smaller life and that the benefits of that and the benefits of a tiny house rather than the constant striving.

Right.

And you're so accomplished, like all of you. I'm gonna put in the show notes as well. Brooke, like, told us. She's like, oh, I have an audition for Chopped coming up. What? Who are you? Like, she hasn't even been working as a full time chef. Then she goes on Chopped and wins out of nowhere and was like rehearsing at our friend Julie. Got to have go to a chopped run through.

Tell us, what was your chopped ingredients? What did you have to work with?

Oh, so it was a chocolate themed episode. So every basket had chocolate in it. I actually just watched the episode again last night with a couple friends who got all excited about it and I hadn't watched it in a while.

We had like, the first basket was soft shell crabs, white chocolate covered caviar, chocolate olive oil and pomegranates. I think the second basket was smoked pork shank, chocolate whiskey, this chocolate crepe cake thing and purple spinach. Then the last box was chocolate covered seaweed.

Pistachio cream, apricots and something else chocolate that I can't remember.

Whether I talk. What did you make? Oh, man, it was just like a comedy of errors the whole time. I dropped a crab on the floor in the first like five minutes of the show. So I'm just swearing up a storm, like making myself look.

I'm like we asked.

I had just. Well, they had started off alive and then I had deep fried them. And like it looks when you watch, when you watch the episode, it looks like there was a string attached to one of them and it was just like pulled away because it just sort of flies off the tray and falls like on the ground. It's this sad like fried crab and you know I'm left trying to figure out what to do.

I almost got booted. It was, I mean, it's funny now because I, you know, I won and it was a few years ago, but at the time it was, it was tragic.

I think there's.

For both me and the crab.

I think there should be a chapter of your book called Chocolate Crabs and Caviar.

That would give me dedicated chopped chocolate crabs. So speaking of your book, I know Brooke is on the lookout for an agent. So if any of any of you wonderful, most perfect agents are listening. Brooke has a draft of an incredible book and I was lucky enough to read a few chapters and let everybody listening know, where else can they find you and keep in touch?

Well, you know, as part of my tinier life, I have kind of taken a little few steps back from social media in the past few months, but I'm still there. I'm on Instagram, Brooks on Twitter, Brooke Seam. But like I, you know, tweet once every six months if you're lucky about nothing in particular. And then, you know, my website has a decent amount of information and there's a little newsletter there that, you know, people can definitely come subscribe to that if they're interested. But really the easiest way to get a hold of me is probably just like contacting me through my website. Brooke Seam.com.

I'm, you know, open to, open to anything as far as collaboration or interesting people or just chatting. I've been really enjoying chatting with people about their personal experiences about getting off of antidepressants as of late. So I'm open to have conversations about that as well. It's kind of like at this point, you know, it's one of the things that I feel like I can actually give back a little bit is by having conversations with people. You know, I certainly hope that one day I can do that on a larger scale. But for right now, you know, one on one conversations, I'm totally, totally happy to do so.

Yeah, Brooke was also on a podcast with our mutual friend Chris Saroy, Mavericks Unlimited. So I'll put that in the show notes along with everything we mentioned.

That one hasn't released yet.

Okay.

But I'm not quite sure when it will. But we filmed just a couple weeks or it felt like we filmed because we saw each other in person.

Oh, nice.

It was just a couple weeks ago. So yeah, this is all kind of a new. This is a new chat, I mean, new part of my life for sure. So I'm having to, you know, figure out how it how it works to make a very odd career change at 32. So.

Well, if there's anyone can do that, it's you. I've watched you do it many times. And just for listeners, this will be in the show notes@pivotmethod.com podcast but Brooke's name, in case you want to look at her website right away, it's Brooke. B R O O K E C S I E M. Yes, correct. S I E M. There it is. Yep. Brooke, thank you so much. Thank you for sharing.

Thank you so much. Jenny.

Yeah, this is so important and I just commend you for the courage that it took to detox and go through all of the side effects. And watching you process this and share your story is downright heroic. So thank you so much.

Thank you. I appreciate it. Thanks for giving me now let's tell it.

Thanks so much for listening to this episode of the Pivot podcast. Make sure you don't miss an episode or my insider tips and templates by signing up for Pivot List, a curated twice monthly newsletter where I share the inside scoop on what I'm reading, watching, listening to and the latest tools I'm geeking out on. Sign up@pivotmethod.com pivotlist get show notes from this episode@pivotmethod.com podcast and connect with me on Twitter Enny Blake.

Remember, build first, then your courage will follow. Hasn't it always.

Sam.