108: Penney & Jenny Show Returns! On Spirituality and Small Business

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What's next? This is a question we're all having to ask and answer more frequently. I'm Jenny Blake, your host of the Pivot Podcast and author of Pivot. The only move that matters is your next one.

For show notes from this episode, visit pivotmethod.com podcast. If change is the only constant, then let's get better at it. Here we go.

Hello everybody. Welcome back to the Penny and Jenny Show. This has turned into its own spin off sister show of the Pivot Podcast, of course, under the same umbrella. But Penny Pierce and I have just been having so much fun. We've done six or seven episodes now and we decided let's just run with it. Today's conversation is going to be about the intersection of spir and small business or solopreneurship. And in fact, it is now time that the Penny and Jenny show have its own URL. So you can go to pivotmethod.com podcast PJ to get all of our past interviews together. Penny is a mega expert, although she probably would have used that exact term on things like intuition, transparency, frequency perception, dreams, 24 hour consciousness. She's just such a brilliant thinker and a kindred spirit and a kind soul. Like, we became fast friends when we did our first interviews together. And now, just for fun, we kind of will ping each other. What should we riff on next? So with that, Penny, welcome to today's P and J Show.

Well, welcome yourself.

Thank you.

It's great to be here.

You know, I love these things.

Me too. And when we were brainstorming what we could talk about on this one, you said that a while back in running your own business, you stopped doing things out of obligation. And in fact, you even dropped the notion of service that you had had a role in performing service of some kind in so many of your past lives that you just decided you, you know what? Enough. I'm going to focus on fun instead. Can you say more about that?

That's right. I know. Well, it came down to, I think we were talking about motivation, you know, and maybe being Authentic and staying in touch with what really, truly motivated you. And I had had a lot of readings where people told me about my past lives. And in those, I had been a minister. You know, I had worked in the church. I had been a missionary once, you know, where I had traveled to, you know, all that kind of thing. And my career in this life really started up the same way, although not in religion. It was like I wanted to help people and be a counselor and bring them into spiritual clarity. And. And I remember standing in my living room once and with raising my arms up and to the east, you know, south, west, and north, bring me people, you know, send me people, and. And I will serve them. And I did that for, oh, my gosh, I don't know, years, until I realized I am just sick of serving. I don't want to do it. I don't want to do it out of this motivation anymore, because it's sort of like it's not so much rescuing. But it didn't feel right. And so I just said, I'm not gonna have this motive anymore, and. Right. Almost immediately, all my clients fell away. It's like, you know, I. I wasn't putting myself out in the same way. And I guess certain people were not answering the call. So what happened then was I just went ahead and I started doing things I enjoyed doing. And then I realized, well, wait a minute, I still really enjoy counseling. I like talking to people. I still like writing. I still like thinking about higher things, and all the things I had done before I still liked. So I thought, okay, I'm just going to do those things again, but this time for fun, this time to enjoy everything. And then new people came in and it all came back and started flowing in a whole different way. So, I mean, I think it's like every so often we really have to take stock of ourselves and see what's our deepest motivation here in what we're creating.

It seems like it's very American to associate hard work, that work isn't supposed to be fun. Work is work. And I know in the past I've been trying on recently a mantra of work, easy. So instead of hard work, what's easy? Work. Just as you said, what's fun? But I know that sometimes people feel like, well, who am I to only filter my work based on what's fun? You know, there's a fear that, well, nothing would ever get done or I wouldn't earn any money. And yet it's not true. It ends up being the best kind of work. But it can be a scary leap for people.

Yes. And I think in some ways that idea that, oh, I should just have fun in my work is an American thing too. Because when I travel in other countries, you know, it has to do with seriousness and how Americans are so self indulgent and all that.

But even generationally, some generations would say, what on earth are you thinking? That like even my mom at times would say when I was at Google, you don't need to be passionate like work is work. It's not about freedom.

Yeah, that's right, it's not about freedom. But I feel like greater genius can be accessed when you're non sacrificial, you know, and.

Following your highest motives or your most curiosity, entertaining yourself by what you do allows more of you, the soul to come through in what you're doing, which brings with it, gosh, you know, it brings with it more of your own talent, genius. But also you're so much more connected with the collective consciousness. Like all souls, all beings and the needs that everyone has that ideas will come to you that you think are yours, but really they're everybody wanting you to have that idea so you'll do it and give it back to everybody. And so you're in kind of this natural sense of service, although it's your own favorite self expression that comes through you, if that makes sense.

Well, I love what you said about. I love what you said, greater genius can be accessed when you're non sacrificial that it allows more of you, the soul to shine through. And that's so true because if we think about, you know, even cooking a meal, if someone cooks a meal with resentment as a martyr, like, ugh, I'm just breaking, you almost don't want to eat it, you know, and yet if someone cooks a meal, like my friend Ann really shows love through food and she stayed at our apartment once and next thing I know we come back from the holidays and there's like five dozen cookies in the freezer. We ended up, this was a blessing and a curse because Michael and I then ate like five cookies a day. We almost ate more so they'd be gone because we love them so much and Ann's always leaving us these gifts of food and, and I can tell that it's love in a box. And I think that our work can be the same way that when you're martyring yourself too much for your work, it gets infused with this energy of resentment and it just affects the end product and how it's received and we're.

All very, very sensitive these days, I mean, and growing even more so, I think. And so the idea that you can feel resentment or frustration in the end product, whether it's food or whatever it is, if I have to, if I'm doing it out of lack, then it doesn't go through as well, it doesn't connect as well, it doesn't work as well. You know, it's just these things do show up, hidden factors show up now. So. Yeah, so it's all the more important then to be transparent, you know, and to allow you, the soul to come through you, the personality and animate it, you know.

And then I think that our motivations, we really do change over time. That there are certain things in different periods of our life that we're trying to learn, you know, and then you learn it and then that's when you start getting bored and you feel like I'm doing the wrong thing. And. And at that point it's like a cue to stop and get re centered and think about, well, look at what I've just accomplished both externally and internally. Look at what I've learned. Great, now what am I interested in? Instead of making the whole thing wrong.

Go to the next thing with the next sense of curiosity and enthusiasm.

Because we're moving through life lessons, you know.

Right, right. There's such a playfulness to the idea of the collective consciousness wanting you to have something as well. Like for some reason that just makes me smile. It's like everyone jumping, jumping up and down, like, yes, we've picked you. You know, we think you're the perfect person to carry this into the world. And that if we're in our zone of genius or bliss state, which I find I'm always in a bliss zone, having these conversations with you and it, it just dissolves the very notion that it's work of any kind.

Yeah.

Well, it's too bad we have the word work, actually.

I don't know, but Martha Beck, actually.

She just calls it play and rest. And she says if work doesn't feel like play, then don't be doing it.

Yeah, I mean, it's self expression. And you know, I think there are times when we want to be intense and really focus and push hard and get into it, you know, and have that kind of, you know, just that wonderful involvement. And whether that's manual labor, you know, sometimes I just like digging up the garden and the dirt and. Or pushing to get a book done, something like that, where there's discipline. And other times I want More kind of fluffy, you know, curvilinear, softer things that are, you know, just frivolous a little more, you know, so we have to honor all of our moods and tendencies that we have as human beings. So I don't think that hard work or, you know, concentration is at all negative. You know, I think it's really valuable.

That's a great point. That there is a difference between focus and immersion. And then the notion of shoulds, I think when I think of work in a. In a context that doesn't work. So around shoulds and, you know, we were even saying how we planned this podcast. It was kind of like, hey, this is coming up a lot, this idea of spirituality in business. Hey. Oh, and I think we exchanged an email about another recent episode and then it was like, well, we should do an episode. We should just chat about that. Cool. Great. Hey, want to jump on a planning call? Okay, great. We brainstormed, had a great time, and then we just jump on this. And even at the beginning we're like, what should we call this one? Who knows? Let's see how it goes, see how it flows.

We'll figure it out later.

Yeah. And that's what brings the fun in. I can't believe curvilinear. Is that a word? It's the coolest word.

It's not a word. It should be and it will be attributed to you.

No, it is. It actually is in the dictionary. I'm sure of it. But one other thing I thought of was what we were talking about earlier was how. And this relates a bit of how we need to honor our likes and dislikes in what we choose to do in our work. I mean, I like teaching and doing. Working in a setting where I have groups that I'm like, lecturing or, you know, doing workshops. But I tried doing keynote speeches and oh my God, it was so nerve wracking for me. It's probably the most tense.

Upsetting thing that, that I have done. And. And you thrive on it. You know, it's like, so I've just decided, okay, I don't. I'm not going to do keynote speeches anymore. I'm going to do the kind of talking that I enjoy that allows me to flow the way I like to flow, you know?

Yeah.

So it's okay to say no to some things, I think.

Yeah. Well, I think that that'd be a big relief to some people listening, where they feel pressure. I mean, in the momentum community that I run, we talk all the time about how I think I Attract people that just don't want to fall into the social media shoulds. So by nature our group is kind of like, ugh, do I have to do all of these marketing things that I'm seeing? And in your case, you felt that even keynote speaking was not for you. And you're right, I love it. I really enjoy it. Although I used to turn bright red in front of the room. Even the other day I was introducing myself, all I had to say was my name and my role for a group I was volunteering with in front of the room and my heart was pounding out of my chest. And I've been paid to do professional speaking for seven years, let alone training for almost 12. So it's bizarre. And I guess what I'm curious about is how did you know? Well, wow, keynote speaking really made me feel uncomfortable. I'm not gonna do it. Versus in my case, I kind of thought, wow, I turned bright red and I'm so nervous, but I gotta push through because I really enjoy it. How did you know not to try to overcome anything, but rather to just grant yourself that you prefer workshop and retreat style format much more?

One was I realized I didn't like talking at people. I liked interaction. I liked more of a natural flow rather than memorizing a script and sort of doing the acting, performing thing that you do with keynotes a lot of times. And that, that it killed my, what it would be like, my fluidity, my spontaneous connection with source. Because a lot of times when I'm just talking or teaching, things come out of me that I didn't know were there, you know, and that to me, that's self entertainment. And so I like teaching. I like, you know, just dialoguing with people a lot. So that's my preference. And I know that I contracted when I went into the other mode. I contracted so much I could barely even think. So it was just not a big choice. It was really like, I just can't do this.

I realized after I asked the question, I'm like, I'm talking to the master of intuition here.

What reason will there be other than I knew, just knew. But I like how you described it as noticing where you contract. And it's funny, I can relate to what you said about keynotes because I'm also. In fact, I just saw a clip of Tony Robbins this morning and I thought, wow, is that different from what I do when I'm on stage? And I tend to be more relatable and more interactive. So half of my keynote is giving the Audience time to reflect for themselves of what's important to them and what their next moves might look like. And I even got, when I did the conferences for women, I spoke to rooms of a thousand people at a time and I had never done an audience that size, so it was in fact terrifying. But I remember getting the survey feedback back and many people said, great speaker, loved her, she was so relatable, really warm, kind, intelligent, et cetera. And then almost exactly I would get. Didn't like her at all. Didn't like her, didn't have enough energy, was too low key, was too casual.

Right.

So the very thing that many people liked was also the thing that I did let down those that were going to be looking for a performance because it's just not my style.

Exactly, exactly. And there's always going to be that. Always, no matter what you choose, you know?

Yeah. You know, part of that, that same choice about liking and disliking, I think has something to do with how large we want our organizations to be, you know, especially when you're a sole proprietor. You know, I've through my career been tempted to form like I started the Visionary Institute at one point and I thought I would have this large learning center and do all this stuff. And the further I got into it, the more I realized that I didn't want to be doing administration and fundraising and all of that. I wanted to be with the people doing the work directly. So I made a conscious choice to stay small and go deeper.

And also I think we could talk too about how that relates into promotion and how we promote ourselves. But how did that work for you?

Well, now I'm remembering what sparked this podcast, which was the episode on Elaine Pofelt, who wrote the book Million Dollar One Person Business. And you wrote back and you said, yes, that's how I run my business. And I said, me too. And that's like, we were like, let's follow up on this conversation. And you mentioned promotion because I know not everybody listening is running their own business full time. I remember being at Google and because I joined there when I was 22, I just was still in the old linear thinking, as you would call it, obsessed with promotion. I just thought, man, my whole time in school about getting good grades and getting and advancing to the next level for 12 years, that was the goal. So when I got, you know, I worked at a startup and then when I got to Google, it was no different. It was just how do I please and perform and please and perform and do it over and over and over until I would get promoted. And I did get promoted twice in my first two years there, which is a lot. You know, even, even that was fast for Google standards, which was growing a lot at the time. And then toward the end of my time at Google, I realized this is exhausting and I don't want to be up in the ranks of management with managers above and below me. And so I decided to myself, I don't care anymore about getting promoted. I just decided one day to drop it. And I thought, I'm not going to do any less quality work, but I'm not going to obsess. I'm not going to give 150%. I'm going to give 80, 90, 100, like something that allows me to keep my sanity. And much to my surprise, I was ready to get fired after that. I was like, all right, and then it'll take about three to six months for them to fire me. But then what ended up happening was I was so relaxed, I still exceeded expectations, and yet I just felt like I don't care anymore. And I was just saying, I was being interviewed on a podcast earlier today and I was saying, you know, my wish for so many of us in the ranks of big organizations is like, at what point is enough, enough? You know, just by living in America? Well, which not everyone listening to this podcast does. But if you were raised in America or many western countries, we're in the top 10% of wealth in the world. And why then do we get in these organizations and then obsess and make ourselves miserable when the salary that you already have, the position you already have in many, many contexts could already be plenty?

Yeah, you know, the whole thing of climbing the ladder, working hard.

Getting.

Success, something. I mean, I've. I was in the corporate world for quite a while before I became self employed and you know, I know that one. But I also think over, over the years I have redefined success for, for myself or how, how it's achieved as well, you know, and like, it's not for me about making a huge amount of money. It was more about getting my ideas or the perspective and understanding that I had access to out to as many people as possible. So change could occur in the world more easily or rapidly. And.

That part of that was learning to have patience and a sense of faith that somehow I knew that deep down under the surface things were being interconnected and it was going to work. Just give it some time, you know, and there have been then synchronicities and people showing up and you know, sales of certain books just going crazy all around the world. And, and, and it's sort of like this relaxed sense of promotion and a sense that success is, it is going to happen. Because maybe it goes back to that thing about they gave me the ideas and I'm going to do something with them and they're mine and for everybody. So I'm going to, you know, fulfill that. I don't know if that makes sense, but I have not gone back to that thing of having to be better than others, outshine people, be first, but get to the right people instead. You know, connect with the right connections.

I really love that. And me too, I'd say for about five years now have been so much more surrendered and relaxed. In a way entrepreneurship taught me that because the first two years I was on the just more linear model, more stressed. I was never very competitive. Like I do believe that there's enough out there for all of us. You mentioned this patience and sense of faith. How did you start to develop those muscles? Because I think for some people there's a gap between. That sounds nice, but I'm panicked on the inside. So what was it that allowed you to shift into that mode?

I think a couple things. Early on I was in competition with a lot of other. At that time there were people who were mediums and channelers and people who were kind of new age people that were making a lot of money and were real flashy and promoting themselves. And I had a couple experiences where some of them took clients away from me and claimed to be my friends, but actually betrayed me. And at a certain point I thought, you know, like that is just not the way to do it. I am not going to be like that. And I decided I'm going to be real, I'm going to do what, what's honest. I'm going to, you know, get the best information I can do and I'm going to put it out there and it'll find people or people will find it and then we'll see. I took it step by step, you know. And then the other part of it is that when you do meditate a lot or you do work with the non physical reality, which is, you know, of course if you're working with intuition, you have to go into those inner worlds. In those inner worlds it's like there's really no time and space. So you can just telepathically think about somebody and they get it in that world. So I used to think up marketing strategies where I would go into the Inner worlds and put the word out, you know, and it wouldn't be recognizable in the physical world. For instance, you know, in the physical, I would put ads in magazines or announcements and things like that for work I was doing, and I'd get no responses from that. But people would start calling that had heard about me from some friend or something else, and the interconnections came from other directions. But it was almost like the ad was a ceremonial act that made it real for my body, you know. And I said, okay, so this is, you know, going to happen now.

It just was practice, Jenny, I think, of letting things go, moving into working with those inner worlds and then seeing that it did work.

That's what I was going to say. I remember it does work.

Well, you know, Simon and Schuster, they called me when frequency started selling a lot. That was one of my big books. And they said, what are you doing? The sales team, the sales manager. Sales manager of Simon Schuster called, what are you doing? You know, that makes this sell? I said nothing, nothing. You know, just maybe some radio interviews or something and. And bookstore talks or whatever. But it's getting around. Word of mouth.

Yes.

And, you know, so, yeah, word of mouth. I don't know, it's. I just think my game.

You know, there's something about being. I always call it being a marketeer, you know, like a lot of the people who go online and who are hawking things all the time, and I just. It's so, so cheap in a way. To me, it feels. Doesn't have any dignity to it. And.

So that's a personal choice for me that I don't want to do with things that way.

It almost like feels like it comes from a sense of lack or a sense of.

That you don't feel good enough about yourself, so you have to convince everybody else that you're really good.

Totally.

I think quality, the energy of what you put out has a frequency and that communicates to other people. And if you're authentic and you're doing good work, you can educate people about the fact that you're around, that you're available and what you're doing. Yes. But you don't have to push it on them. So that's just my orientation.

Well, I'm with you. I feel like I just can't do it. Similar to you in keynotes, there's a certain amount of social media and sales. I just can't do it. And I will do some. When I really believe in something that I've made, like the book. But I Learned early on in my business. I cannot stand being an online marketer where my goal all the time is to launch courses and create funnels. Yeah, something funny. For years I've had the feeling I should do Facebook ads. I know people who earn six figures a month, some of them doing Facebook ads, and this is their number one way that they get customers and clients. And it's so easy. And years I had it on my to do list and I couldn't bring myself to do it. And then I realized what, why? And I realized I don't even like posting on Facebook for my own personal life. Whatever's going on, I don't do it. I just live my life and I don't want to get hooked into the cycle of. I just don't want to. And it's fine if others enjoy that and that's cool, but why would I then advertise? It just felt out of integrity to me to go pay money and try and kind of collect people on a platform that I didn't even like.

So.

And we use Facebook for my momentum community. We have a private Facebook group. And those are the exception where I do feel I can connect with very like minded people. And it is a good platform because so many other people are already on there on a daily basis. So other things I tried didn't work. But yeah, I just realized that, well, it's.

That's really not marketing. That's really more like you doing your keynotes where you're dialoguing and you're connecting with people. Yeah.

And I just, I love what you said earlier, that practicing this patience and faith and even connecting into the non physical world and trusting the frequency of what you've created, it draws people in. And the thing is, it works. When I think about how I've developed this skill, I realize that, oh, as you said, serendipities start to happen. And actually this is the way that I've created a sustainable business. The most counterintuitive thing, because it's like by losing the reins and even letting go of the reins completely. Or there's the Zen saying of lift the oars and somehow by not paddling, the boat moves faster or it moves in the direction that I don't even see yet, but the direction creates itself as the boat moves down the river.

Yeah, yeah. I think, you know, you realize that souls are all interconnected. And if they want me to put this material out or for you to put out the pivot material, then there's people who want it. And if you hold the vibration of that truth that you're talking about, they find you.

It's frequencies that resonate. That's it. It's all energetic. I think.

One of the things I used to do is when I'd go to bed, I'd imagine I had a big lighthouse up above my body and it was going around and around, sending light out, you know, around it. And I would just say, well, here I am, you know, if anybody needs what I have to offer, here I am, come find me. And, you know, I do my part, but. But they would find me, you know, and.

And I remember when I moved to Florida, which was like, talk about counterintuitive or illogical, you know, I came here because my mother had gotten sick, but after being in Marin County, Northern California for 30 years, it seemed like, oh my God, what am I going to do? There's nobody who thinks like me here. And my inner voice told me to just, just be exposed and don't try to hide and don't try to put up any walls or anything and just be a clear space in the field of Florida. And okay, so I practiced that, you know, and what that does is it kind of draws in. It's like a vortex of some kind. And you do this in your imagination and you know, I swear we are so telepathic.

Very sensitive to energetic differences in realities that we know how to find the people we need next. You know, whether that's to be co workers with or to have teachers or to have students or whatever it is. I think it's all.

It's a kind of an art that we haven't really learned much about yet, but that we will be learning a lot about because we're becoming so energy sensitive.

Someone should write a whole book series on that.

See what I did there?

You know, I always like to redefine terms like what do you think success actually is? You know, when you think about it on the physical level, it's one thing as you start to go down into the energetic and the, the, you know, for the soul for a lifetime, you know, what is it?

Yeah, well, it's funny, I actually was adamant that we not use the word success in pivot almost at all. I don't know if the word is in there even one time. If it is, it has some nuance around it. And I certainly didn't want it in the title that there were some discussions around subtitle like something something to career success. And I just thought absolutely not because it has such a skewed meaning.

I think yes.

And what I love about your Florida example is that by you getting this message to be exposed, don't try to hide. Be a clear space. I can also imagine that on some level that put you at ease. So instead of pushing against Florida, like, you're not my place, you're not my people. I'm not going to find them here, even on a very subtle level, because I know you're a very friendly person. But there was an openness to you that people could also sense that openness that because of this message and this intention to be a clear space in a way that allowed you to drop anything that would have cluttered your field. And so therefore your calmness also attracted the right people to you.

True. And also it didn't put me into oppositional thinking, which would have attracted people who didn't understand me or felt threatened by me.

Right. Or linear thinking. I think linear thinking also has to do with geography and.

Demographics. Like, I have a lot of clients who will say things like, well, I just don't know if I can find clients in my town or in my city or in this demographic that I want to serve. And I never buy that. Like, we live in an ever connected global economy, and where there's a will, there's a way. I just don't believe in. You know, even every now and then, I dabble in the great New York City sport of open houses and going to open houses and sort of dreaming about an apartment. And I talked to my real estate broker and he started giving me all these statistics about why I wasn't going to get a good deal on the type of place or any certain percentage less than what I was wanting to pay. And I said, listen, you could tell me statistics all day, but that's not gonna work for me. Like, I need that magical intersection of they really gotta get an apartment off their hands. I'm ready to go, we meet at some magical number in the middle that wouldn't have happened under normal circumstances. Like, I can't. The statistics game is not gonna work in my favor here in an economy where Russians and Chinese people are coming in with all cash, buying pied a tears that they never even use. Like, I'm not gonna win the.

I can't go by what happens on average for me. It's gonna have to be this unique combination and doing some of the physical world steps, like actually going to an open house with a lot that I do on the spiritual level of, hey, universe, show me exactly if it's time.

It's a combination what is it like, praise Allah, but tie your camel to the post or something.

You do the physical and you do the non physical. And the physical is like, sometimes I feel like these things are just like treading water or holding space. And then the universe does all the work, really. The field patterns itself accordingly to the way you hold things, which is like the, you know, I talk about a lot, the inner blueprint, you know, and that we have, you know, like maybe for each of our kinds of work we have this pattern that we haven't even really defined. But it's like for me, it's like somehow bringing this certain kind of large amount of information in, making, translating it, making it accessible and understandable about transformation. And yours is pretty similar, I think.

Actually I was going to say I'm.

Like, different point of view.

I was like, I don't even know what mine is, as you say.

But in a way, that pattern then causes the materialization of the form. And the pattern evolves as we evolve. And so then the form starts to come out of that pattern. So you can make changes very quickly, not by trying to change the form, but by changing your attitude, your imagination, your involvement in your imagination with your body, by your body, so that you feel it to be real. Like you feel that new apartment or place to live. And it becomes so real to you that your field will re pattern itself so that that comes into your world and there is no level of difficulty. Right, but the left brain always thinks there's a level of difficulty. That's the statistics and stuff.

Yeah, and I was just saying I'm also not attached to whether that's the right next move or not. So I kind of feel like, who knows, maybe I'm saving all this money for the perfect next thing that I don't even see yet. But it's not an apartment, so I tend to trust that I'll be shown. You know, you mentioned you're imagining the big lighthouse above your body saying, here I am. And my prayer is often put me to work, show me how to serve. And there's that word that you dropped. But I think I was a nun and alone in a lot of past lives, like just doing my own thing. So maybe now is my time to serve. But I just say show me how to serve. I actually have no clue. And I've been thinking about this podcast and how this notion of put yourself in the path of pivot. Like I actually don't have any clue where it's leading, but I'm in the path. I'm in the way of progress, you know, because I'm doing it week after week and, and that's what I call public original thinking. It's my. I don't like the term personal branding, but I do think that public original thinking that's unique to you, that you do in public is really a great ticket toward serendipity and attraction.

Yeah, it's like for me, it's sort of like enjoying the surprise of how the world.

Morphs itself day by day and brings things in or dissolves things away and then realizing that it's me, you know, at a bigger level, connected with everybody that's doing this, you know, it's not happening to me. I'm involved in it all, you know, and. And yet I still let myself be surprised by, you know, I don't like to use the word the outside world anymore because I don't think it's actually out there. It's the bigger me.

That comes into my consciousness as events, you know, and objects as opposed to my inner thoughts, but it's still my inner thoughts. So just like there's an inner blueprint for a pattern of what I want to do and then an outer form. I think there's a correlation constantly between the way the events show up in your world and what you're actually thinking about in your inner world or what you the soul is materializing next.

So I always make that connection between.

The non physical and the physical, let's call it, rather than inner and outer, that they're always interconnected and they're always vibrations and I say versions of me, types of my own energy.

Happening simultaneously. So I call that the law of correlation. You know, it's just to have that be a kind of mental practice that I do is I watch things to see how is what's happening in the world that I become aware of that is in my noticing, you know, how is that part of me, what am I doing inside that parallels that.

You know, and that, that I think pertains a lot to then what you feel like doing next? You know, what, how you're fault.

I was just gonna see case in point right there. It's just one mind. I was just gonna ask you what do you do when you're in a lull or what feels like a lull in your business or career and you're not sure what's next? And I like how you, you have an inquiry as well that you say what's my next courageous act? Which I think is so cool.

Yes.

What do you do when you just don't know.

Well, first of all, I've learned to make use of this kind of liminal space, which is, you know, the threshold space, where you've really finished a certain set of life lessons, perhaps, which maybe correlate with a phase of your business. And you're. And it's very important to complete that consciously. And I. And, you know, take stock of it and say, what did I learn? I'm so pleased with myself, you know, and take satisfaction and then let yourself be spacious for a little while. And when I get into that, which has been. Earlier this year, I had several months of this where I felt like I was waiting for a new reality to sort of descend or show up around me. That I knew it was coming, but I couldn't. I could feel it and get a glimmer, but I couldn't tell what it was yet. But so I knew it was coming. And meanwhile, I just tootled around the house and cleaned up and replenished supplies and did gardening and tidied, you know, and just, you know, like a friend told me. Yeah, and I'm in the same thing. I'm organizing my sock drawer, you know, just do that kind of meditational sort of activities and keep checking, like, well, what's interesting now to me. And sometimes these things start to sneak in. Do, you know, like, you read an article or you hear something on TV or a friend in a conversation or says certain phrases. In fact, I take notes now on my conversations with people to write down these cool phrases that they say. Because those phrases will trigger me into whole new avenues of thinking sometimes, you know, so you have to kind of pay attention to these little clues. But a friend of mine said the other day he felt like there was this pressure on his back. Like there was this whole big thing behind him that was pressing into him, that it wanted to come through his body and come out the front and show up in front of him, but he couldn't tell what it was. And that's the feeling I think we get sometimes when we know that we're about to go into a whole new phase of ourselves. And I think right now, the time that we're in, a lot of people are going through this, you know, this sense of we're about to be lifted out of something that's too small of an explanation of ourselves and into something that's.

More true for.

How do I want to say this? It's like I think we're starting to identify ourselves as the soul. Another piece of this, Jenny is Like, I don't feel ambitious anymore, which is really weird. Although I'm very excited. You know, it's like this kind of enthusiasm and joy at the next thing or meeting all the new people that are come in in the next phase. You know, I'm excited. I'm not at all feeling lazy or, you know, down. Yeah, I'm just waiting.

I know exactly what you mean, and I can relate so much. I remember even when Pivot was coming out, I wanted it to do well. Of course, I trusted that if it was good, people would tell their friends. There's the word of mouth. And at the same time, I didn't care how many copies it sold. Like, people authors were shocked to find fellow author friends. They're like, so have you checked your stats? How many have you sold? I hadn't even looked. Like, the first six months. I didn't even look. I just. Oh, I forgot. And they were flabbergasted. You know, some of them would check multiple times a day. And I. It's interesting. I'm curious your thoughts, because I think one criticism or question from the outside is, you know, even this notion of waiting for the next direction to descend. And for me, too, I feel that, like, I get excited about things, but I don't. I don't have all this mega list of goals of things to achieve. I just dropped it. And life was so much better. But some would say, oh, surrender, you're, like, not in. I don't know how to even phrase this question. Where surrender gets a bad rap, basically. Or waiting to receive the next direction, some would see as too passive. You and I know that that's not true, but how do you distinguish between what would be judged as, you know.

Yeah, fine line. I think there are fine lines here that we have to distinguish between. For instance, ambition and just enthusiasm. You know, there's a whole different motive there. One's coming out of a sense of lack and, you know, not feeling the self, and the other's coming out of being full of the self and overflowing into the world. But they can look kind of alike. Same thing with waiting or being consciously engaged with.

There is a time where you need to be spacious and let go of doing.

And willpower, where you allow yourself to reconnect or merge again into the imaginal realm, to remember how big you are. It's like dreaming at night. You know, you have to let yourself reconnect with big things and allow new patterns to form and new sets of instructions to come in for you. And while you know, that could take a minute or it could take a month, or it could take several months or a year or whatever, you know, be different scopes. But there is a need to disengage from the old, allow nothing and then allow the new things to start coming in. And I feel it always coming in in glimmers and little ideas and little test cases, you know, like you and I saying, oh, let's do another one of these interviews and talk about some other things. And it just came up one day and then we decided to do it and we're doing it and it have any effort to it at all. So you start with little things like this and then maybe they grow into other things or maybe a bigger opportunity comes along for you and then you have this exact same feeling about, oh, this would be fun, let's do this worldwide tour or whatever it's going to be next.

But you're still in that I think, almost childlike sense of oh, let's use the red crayon next in my drawing.

You know, I love it.

That actually reminds me, we talked about, we said if this goes well, we could always do an in person workshop maybe in New York. Wonder if anyone's interested.

That's right.

So in fact, I'm gonna say right now, I'll put an email capture a way for you to just say yes, keep me Posted, it's@pivotmethod.com podcast PJ and put your email like, we're not going to spam you. Don't worry, just put your email and you'll let us know if you would want us to do a workshop. Because Penny and I, this is part of our process too. We just thought, oh yeah, that could be fun. And so partly this will be a collaboration. We'll see if the field of all of you listeners would want to do that. And if we do get enough interest, we'll definitely make it happen. Absolutely. Yeah.

I think it's the information we have fits together pretty well because I'm really interested in this whole new perception and moving out of the information age into the intuition age and how processes are going to change, how our perception is going to change and how we'll do things differently so much more effortlessly.

And applying that to specific things like business and seeing how different areas are going to shift, that's what fascinates me. And I think your material is really so much the same around that whole same idea.

Definitely. And I think it's so powerful to get like minded people together in a room, but like how you feel about keynotes. That's how I feel about marketing in person events. It's just like, I find it so stressful to try and, like, fill the event and how many times you have to email to fill an event. So I feel like, all right, if the interest is there and we can joyfully and easefully fill a room, great, we'll do it.

Yes, yes, yes. Yeah, I'm with you on that one. I've done that myself for too many times.

But, you know, this is a leading edge, really, I think, of business. But business, what is it? You know, it's like it's going to become much more about collective consciousness and collaboration and groups becoming, you know, really flatter and where everybody has authority within the group and then those groups connecting with other groups and, you know, this kind of, this networking that's building into.

You know, greater flows for, I really think, for the planet. You know, when you boil it down, we've got to take care of this planet now before it gets really damaged. You know, it's like getting to a point where, you know, and I'm not a doomsday person, but I really think it's really time for people to turn on their light switches and start to be doing things that are.

Proactive and positive for each other and for the Earth. I don't mean to sound too lofty and weird, but I really think that's key.

I agree so much, and I feel like it's kind of an inevitable next step of just treating each other with kindness. You know, I think, you know, even if right away the context or the content of what these businesses are working on large and small, may or may not shift drastically. But what can shift is how we work and how we show up at work and how we treat employees and each other and clients and friends and just this whole thing. Because I think that people are really tired and burning out and unhappy and just there are many things that need to be dismantled. And I used to, I would have felt the same way. Like, oh, there's, you know, I was never.

Drawn into the social change world. Social causes. I just hadn't gone there yet. I came up through Silicon Valley, and although they talk about making the world a better place, it's through a very different lens than some of these social change type initiatives. And so I'm very curious about those. And now, you know what? I feel like I'm playing catch up. But it's just this feeling of recognizing how connected we all are and how does that mean we can do business differently. And for me, my number one thing is the golden rule for everything I do. It's just however I treat someone at any micro level is what I want this done to me. It doesn't even matter if it's the tiniest white lie.

It's such a good place to start. And what happens then as we become more sensitive is we realize that there are so many ways that we.

Are being violent or negative and hurting others that we accept as normal. Like sarcasm for instance, or.

Just being apathetic or holding moods that don't allow other people to shine. There are so many subtle ways that we're becoming aware of that in that as well, you know. And then the other thing I think is that in terms of larger transformation and change that isn't just for a single person, but for groups and nations and even global is that working with the non physical realm principles work differently. There things are all in the present moment. Change can be instantaneous. It's like the hundredth monkey syndrome, for instance. I mean that's like.

You get to a certain point, not every single person in the world has to change. There's a certain kind of critical mass that can be reached and suddenly it changes. There are other principles that work in the non physical worlds that are very hopeful, you know. And when you think about transformation or change in a linear way, cause and effect thinking that's old and that's not the way this new reality is going to function because everything's getting faster and faster and faster. So it's not going to be such a hard thing to affect some great extensive changes in the world. It's just we've got to get connected and get on the same frequency and then those things are going to start to come about because the patterns will start changing and then the physical form will drop out of those patterns. I don't know if that makes sense.

Oh yeah, that's such a great call to action.

That's what I'm thinking.

I love it. Just that we've got to get connected and then it is very encouraging actually amongst all the terrible things happening around the world. I love that you're saying because things are speeding up, we even have an opportunity to affect change in an instant and in a faster way. And I know you're giving a workshop coming up on creativity and intuition and even. Sorry that you just gave one on creativity and intuition and the upcoming one is Intuition and Energy Dynamics for Counselors and Healing Professionals. And I know one big thing you're going to talk about is shifting the perspective on healing. Can you speak to that for just a moment?

Yeah. Last year we did a workshop, and this is in Copenhagen, we did a workshop just on intuition and had a lot of counselors and therapists who came and they wanted more information about how to apply intuition in their work. So as I started thinking about that, I started realizing that we're still looking at healing as a linear process. You know, go back into your past, dredge up things, try to bring it into the present, clear it. You know, it's like go to therapy for 10 years and talk about it or whatever. And that right now, because things are so fast and everything's much more in the present moment, there are different ways to facilitate healing and there's much greater possibility for instantaneous healing than ever before. And I want to help people understand how to shift their paradigm really of out of linear thinking into this kind of spherical holographic present moment perception where things can happen so fast and also thoroughly. It's not just a little blip that then you go back to the old thing.

So, yeah, that's what I'm still bringing the training in, like you call it out of the GU state.

I think I got that from you, by the way. I don't think I made that up.

Floating around. Oh, I think you did it. I think you made that up.

I called it that. I feel like. I often feel like I'm in a goose state. So. Yeah, totally.

Anyway, yeah, I mean, there's things that are floating that want to come together in. With a certain logic to it that I need to sit down and let that come through. But yeah, so that's going to be a fun thing. And I think that training will lend itself towards something that you and I want to do.

That kind of change of consciousness.

Yeah, yeah.

I asked Penny, I said, so what's. Tell me more about this workshop coming up. And she's like, oh, I don't know yet.

It was great. She's like, it hasn't come in yet, you know, and it will. And probably for Penny, and you've done this so much now, but. But to even facilitate in the room, more is going to come to you.

Oh, it does, yeah. Things have come in that way too. Right. And well, people draw it in. Right. I mean, that's the thing. You think you know what you're going to do and then you start getting involved with the people and their souls have knowledge that they want to be made conscious and it all just works together. And that's the magic of it all.

I love it.

The joy of it. Yeah, yeah.

If any of you listening want to co create together and be part of something like this, let us know. I'll give the link one more time. Pivotmethod.com podcast pj all lowercase as in this is another episode of the Penny and Jenny Show. Penny, thank you so much. What a delight.

What fun non work you are too. It is fun. It is so much fun. So much fun. Thank you so much.

Yes, thank you. And everyone at the link that I keep mentioning. I'm also I said at the beginning, but I'm going to put all the episodes that we've done together so you can find them all in one place and this is going to be the little parallel sister podcast to Pivot. And if you liked this interview, and if you appreciate Penny's view on the world as much as I do, I really encourage you to go back and listen to some of the previous episodes. Penny, thank you again for being here.

All right, can't wait for the next one.

Me too. Bye everybody.

Thanks so much for listening to this episode of the Pivot podcast. Make sure you don't miss an episode or my insider tips and templates by signing up for Pivot List, a curated twice monthly newsletter where I share the inside scoop on what I'm reading, watching, listening to and the latest tools I'm geeking out on. Sign up@pivotmethod.com pivotlist get show notes from this episode@pivotmethod.com podcast and connect with me on Twitter ennyblake.

Remember, build first, then your courage will follow. Hasn't it always.