110: Jesus, Mary and Joe Jonas—Jonathan Parks-Ramage’s Exploration across Religion, LGBTQ Equality and the Entertainment Industry

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I am so excited to be here today with Jonathan Parks Ramage, a friend of a friend who the second I heard about him, I just knew we had to talk for this podcast. Gotta love the Internet. Jonathan is an LA based writer with his work in Vice, W Magazine, Out Magazine, Atlas, Obscura, Broadly, Refinery 29 and many more. And my friend Rachel is the one who first mentioned his work to me when I was telling her some of the themes that I'd been exploring on the Pivot podcast at the intersection of work and spirituality and personal exploration. She just looked at me and she said, you have to meet Jonathan. Jonathan had just written an article and narrated it for the new medium podcasts called Jesus, Mary and Joe Jonas a journey into LA's hippest evangelical church. In his reporting beyond that, he explores topics revolving around LGBTQ issues, social justice, religion and cults, and the entertainment industry. So a man after my own Pivot Heart, he said to me as we were corresponding. And I love it when I have an opportunity to do a story where all those topics intersect. Jonathan, welcome to the show.

Thank you so much for having me.

I just love when I meet people whose Venn diagram of interests intersects in the most unique and beautiful way. So I love that you wrote to me about LGBTQ issues, social justice, religion, cults and the entertainment industry. Like what a powerhouse and specific set of topics. Tell me, like, how on earth did you get into this combination of things?

You know, I think, you know, as a writer on the Internet, I've kind of evolved on the Internet. And, you know, as I have explored topics.

To report on, you know, I think I've just really been attracted to things that resonate with me personally. You know, I'm a gay man, so LGBT issues are very important to me. You know, I also work in the entertainment industry as a screenwriter, so that's another big thing. And I live in la, so it's right here.

Social justice has always been a passion of mine, both in the LGBT space and in others. And, you know, religion is something I've grown up with since I was a child of two ministers.

So that is something that has always kind of been present in my life, even though I would consider myself.

Agnostic today. You know, religion and the things we can draw from it and the search for meaning is something which has always inspired me and has really started to come through in my work recently. So I just say that I arrived at those topics by just being me and finding things to write about, which I think is the best way to, you know, approach any creative project is, you know, figure out what are the themes that are kind of resonating in your soul, what do you have to absolutely talk about, and then find a way to talk about those things.

I love it. Yeah. Find a way to find what's resonating in your soul. That's so beautiful.

Yeah.

I think it's interesting that you were raised by two ministers, which explained a lot for me in terms of this unique intersection, because you're kind of raised, surrounded by religion. And yet one thing that I thought was fascinating, that you explored in the Jesus, Mary, and Joe Jonas piece is that, you know, you say, I don't believe one book has all the answers or that I'm a sinner or that I have to stop being gay to achieve enlightenment. And so I can imagine that for you and so many people who.

Live any kind of lifestyle that isn't the mainstream, mainline, say, traditionally Christian viewpoint, that there's this moment of reconciling what is being preached versus your life and how you believe and know in your heart you want to feel free to live. And I would love if you could just speak to how you wrap your mind around that and how that, you know, growing up gay, like, maybe even just how you kind of first started to deal with the fact that it wasn't necessarily, and I don't know your experience, but fully accepted, even where your parents are ministering or the religion that they're ministering.

Yeah. Yeah. Well, I mean, I guess I'd start by saying you know, you can be gay and be a Christian, and it's absurd that there are so many people who would suggest otherwise. And I do think that in this country, when most people think of religion, they think of the religious right and the moral majority and the white evangelicals who voted for Trump. But, you know, that doesn't. That's not all Christians in the U.S. but there is this common conception that Christian equals anti gay. And so when I tell people throughout my life that both of my parents were ministers growing up, there's kind of this moment they were like, oh, God, that must have been terrible for you. And I always tell them, no, actually, they were both ministers of a fairly liberal branch of the Christian church, the United Church of Christ, which is something called open and affirming, which means they welcome LGBTQ individuals into their church and celebrate them as they are. But even that being said, you know, I did grow up in kind of small town churches, and when I came out, I came out in eighth grade, I told my parents, we're very accepting, but we did live in a conservative small town where they were ministers. And even though the larger denomination they were ministers of did support the LGBTQ community.

I made the decision kind of along with them to not come out within that small town because we just felt it wouldn't be understood. And that's kind of where I parted ways with the church myself. My parents since then went on to minister exclusively at LGBTQ affirming churches. And I think that my coming out really influenced their own approach to Christianity and making the conscious choice to say, you know, I will only work at churches that welcome the LGBT community into the world.

I love that. Go, mom and dad. Yeah.

That'S so amazing that that was their position on end that just they were so open to begin with and then open with you, and that they. It even influenced their career path and the choices that they made. Yeah. So then I know that you are now a freelance writer and working on screenwriting in la, but that wasn't always the case. In astrological terms, it sounds like you had a pretty epic Saturn return. As epic as it can get. You live in la, so I probably don't have to tell you what that means. Yes.

How did you make the decision to pivot from you were working at Sundance TV into freelancing.

Yeah. So in New York, I basically worked for years as a television executive, and I had.

Always wanted to write, always been writing, but always had been afraid to make that leap into uncertainty. And so I kind of had this career that I Mapped out for myself, which was always my plan B, which kind of just turned into my plan A, which was being a TV executive. And there was this period in my life where.

I had a six figure salary that I sorely miss.

It'll be back. It'll be back. Don't worry.

It will be.

I had achieved this.

Certain success that felt like I was living in the wrong life. But it was also very hard to snap out of that life. And basically what happened was my life fell apart in a very dramatic way. I moved in with my boyfriend at the time, moved into this gorgeous brownstone in Brooklyn. Two weeks after we moved into this new place together, he broke up with me. Two weeks after that, I got diagnosed with testicular cancer. And shortly thereafter, I was fired from my job. So pretty quickly my entire life fell apart and I just became a walking crisis. And.

In the short term, that meant just dealing with kind of the daily reality of the sky falling around you and finding a new place to live, working on, getting a new job, going to doctors. I was very fortunate in that testicular cancer, if you have to get cancer, is one of the best to get. It's never good to get cancer, but if you have to get testicular cancer, because they were fortunate enough to catch it early enough where it's very treatable and I'm now fully healthy. But kind of what happened that summer? My life fell apart and there was nothing to fall back on. Basically, there was nothing keeping me in New York. And when you kind of stare death in the face, you grow a pair of balls, to put it frankly.

Nice tie in there. Perfect fun.

I only had one ball, but it was enough.

So really kind of coming face to face with that was like, you know what? Life is too short. I am going to go for plan A. I moved to LA and I, you know, it went through a very difficult transition my first year, but, you know, really worked to carve a space for myself as a journalist and a screenwriter. And that is now, thankfully, what I'm doing. But I don't think I could have ever actually done it had my life not fallen apart and had I not hit that rock bottom.

It's so interesting and intense that not only were you going through just the breakup, turning 30 and getting fired like that alone would send most people apoplectic and have the sky be falling. But then as you're saying, you're literally staring death in the face. And it's so interesting to hear you talk about how at that point it kind of gave you the courage to put Plan A back in front where it belonged and moving to LA to pursue songwriting and freelance writing. These are not typically easy things to do. So what was it within you that maybe you could just explain, if you can pinpoint it. That said, but it's still worth it to try. What were even your first steps of when you got to LA of how to break into either of these two markets?

Well, first of all, I think it was just like I'd faced the scariest thing. So it was kind of like, well, if I can be that, like, why not face other very scary things that I've always been wanting to face? And what brought me to la, I simultaneously got into two separate screenwriting fellowships. So one was the Film Independent Screenwriters Lab, and then another was the CBS Diversity Showcase. Those two programs were enough to kind of give me confidence and kind of know that I was taking steps in the right direction, that I was moving toward a realistic goal. I started writing personal essays first at Refinery and then at Vice.

As just another outlet of my writing in another kind of arena that I really loved. And an editor at Vice kind of took me under her wing and said, you know, honestly, like, you can apply the same skills you're using in personal essays and switch the focus to journalism. And then once I found journalism, I was like, oh, I can also tell other people's stories and not just air all my baggage on the Internet, which gets a little exhausting as well. But it also helps expand the lens. And I really love my favorite stuff is doing long form journalism that also incorporates my personal story. So, like the story that you read on Reality, which kind of balances.

A profile of this church with my personal experience growing up with parents for ministers and the struggles I've encountered along the way. So that's kind of the journalism side of it. And I've now kind of come full circle where I love meshing the worlds of my personal stories and then the stories of other people.

I love it. So let's zoom in to the moment that you discovered Reality Church and then decided to write about it. Where, how did you find out about it and what interested you enough to do this? Amazing. It's. Could we call it an investigative piece? I mean, it's not like you're investigating a crime. It's more like investigating what's it all about for a period of immersed time.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I spent about.

Six months with the church. But how I found it was.

It was. I go into this a little bit at the top of the piece, but I was at this stereotypical kind of Hollywood cocktail party in the Hollywood Hills at the home of a former child star. And she was going through kind of the very rough transition from being a child star to trying to be a grown up star. And she was kind of holding court for all of her guests were directors, actors, writers, the typical kind of milieu. And she was talking about how this movie she was attached to just fell apart and how it was so devastating. And someone like a 25 year old woman in a super hip Coachella fedora asked her.

Coachella fedora, I love it.

But asked her if she had prayed about this. And I was like, pray about this? I was like, we are at a cocktail party with like a bunch of 20 somethings in the Hollywood Hills. Never have I ever heard something about prayer and God in this context. So I was kind of like, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, What? And then as it turns out, this particular actress and a lot of her friends were members of Reality la.

And I did this.

Kind of Google deep dive because I was like, what the. How is a church attracting young people in kind of famously liberal, progressive, godless Hollywood? And lo and behold, there was this kind of like giant evangelical church called Reality LA.

That had about 3000 members.

And attracted this very hip contingent of.

Hollywood people. But the more I looked into the church, I discovered that underneath this kind of hip exterior, they had very conservative ideas.

About homosexuality, which is that it was forbidden. Sex before marriage is forbidden. Abortion will send you to hell. Women are not allowed in the leadership. So I was kind of like, whoa. On the surface, you look at the people that go here and you're like, oh, they're just like progressive millennials like everyone else. But then you go underneath and kind of examine the dogma behind the church and it is shockingly conservative. So I was very interested in that juxtaposition. And also, you know, how this church became so big and so popular in a place like Hollywood.

What surprised you most in those six months of doing the reporting?

I have to be honest, I went into the piece with kind of this progressive chip on my shoulder, almost like you were saying, and investigation. I'm gonna expose these douchebags for all their.

Bigotry.

But once I was there.

I discovered kind of a much more nuanced.

Picture than I expected. Meaning there was a lot of beauty in this community. It was a community that had saved people's lives. It was a community that was devoted to helping people in their search for meaning. It was a place where I met a Meth addict who had hit rock bottom and cited her born again faith as what literally saved her from death. I met out of work actors. I met failed screenwriters. All these people who had kind of found meaning when all the meaning in their life had collapsed. And that's a beautiful thing. But the flip side of that is that in this particular church, once you peel away the layers, you realize that there's also this conservative ethos. So, you know, in this church, you are, quote, unquote, allowed to be homosexual just as long as you don't have sex or even think about sex.

You know, and that's just.

In my view, unacceptable to, you know, to oppress people in that way. To say, if you have had an abortion, you're going to hell unless you repent. I mean, I think that those things are really damaging. So, you know, it became this kind of complex thing of seeing this beauty and seeing the ways in which this particular community was helping a lot of people heal, but then at the same time, really hurting a lot of people and potentially causing lifelong damage.

Yeah. The story was so powerful of the man, the gay man that you met who had become celibate, and how you describe in the piece that once he became celibate, his family accepted him again, and you could tell there was this intense feeling of belonging that he had found with them because of this. But. And I share your view on this. Like, in an ideal world, no one is asked to shut down a part of themselves or to try and check this at the door. It's like, I'm with you. Of just accepting all people and of all stripes. And so I also don't adhere to something that would ever say, oh, you can't be gay, or you can be gay, but you just cannot ever have sex or think about sex. Like, that just isn't part of the human experience unless someone is, I would say, naturally and authentically choosing that for themselves for other reasons, but not in order to be accepted.

Yeah, I agree. And that's kind of what was the most troubling, is that.

The minister of the church said, we welcome the LGBT community with open arms. But there's a giant caveat with that, which is you have to deny your sexuality. And to me, that is more insidious and more potentially harmful than the Westboro Baptist Church with their God hates Fags posters. Because at least with the Westboro Baptist Church, you know what you're getting, and you're not gonna go anywhere near that. Cause you're like, oh, I get it. There is this just Straight up, like, they hate gay people. If I'm gay, I'm not gonna go there. But reality says, no, please come. You know, we love you, except this part of you. And I think that is more dangerous because it has the real ability to mess with someone's psyche and mess with, you know, someone's emotional well being and alter the course of their life in a way which can lead to depression, suicide in the worst case scenarios.

It is interesting how nuanced these things are. And I love how you said you went into this with a progressive chip on your shoulder. You know, I find that so interesting. And I was raised. I grew up in San Francisco and not in a religious household. My mom is Jewish, my dad's Christian. But we didn't. There wasn't talk of God or faith in the day to day. Just wasn't part of my life. So I come at religion almost from the outside. And I'm learning, you know, I'm increasingly learning more and more.

But even as a kid, I didn't want to be told what to do or what to believe. Like, I didn't like when kids at school would be like, oh, your mom's Jewish, then you're Jewish, as if they were assigning me my religion. And you describe in the piece as well the David Foster Wallace quote, that there's really no such thing as atheists. Like, we all believe in something. I'm paraphrasing. And I think. And I also heard Richard Rohr talk about. He's a. I don't know if he's Christian or. See, I don't even have all the lingo. Look, he's a very well known author. He wrote a book called Falling Upwards. And he said that interestingly, in the Middle east and in the east, you don't find atheists. Like, it's more in America, where it's a reaction to the Western form of Christianity and religion that especially our generation, is now more than ever starting to describe themselves as spiritual. Not religious or agnostic, not by any name. And I'm just curious to hear your take on this. If you. This has been your experience as well in researching and talking to friends and even being part of the LGBTQ community, that it's kind of leaving the church for all the great aspects of community and love and belonging. Because I'm with you. The more I learn, even ministry, I think, is really missing from secular life, this idea of giving back. And yet it seems like more and more people.

Go away from religion because of their experiences of sort of being told how to be or what to think. And that. That's the downside.

Yeah. And I think that.

You know, to go back to that David Foster Wallace quote, basically, the idea is that we all worship something. Whether we worship success or we worship money, or we worship beauty, or we worship the idea of becoming a famous actor or the idea of becoming a famous screenwriter. And I think the reality is that when you put all your spiritual, emotional eggs in one particular basket, and that basket is something that will eventually fall apart, you run the risk of having that breakdown of having your world kind of fall apart and having that destroy you. And I think that.

The advantage of.

Spirituality is that it allows you to search for meaning without kind of attaching to the material world and create community around something other than your screenwriting career or your career as a lawyer or your makeup supplies. It allows you to search for meaning in something divorced from the material world. And I think that's really valuable. But I also think that what you're saying is true, which is a lot of religions are unattractive because they take this spiritual community, accumulate power in that community, and then abuse that power to repress others. And that's where you run into trouble. But I think that. I mean, there's actually this amazing book I just finished called Religion for Atheists by Alain de Botton.

I think I have it. I haven't read it yet.

It's amazing because it kind of identifies.

The positive aspects of.

Religion which are not really.

Incorporated into secular life currently and makes a case for why these aspects of religion are valuable and can actually be divorced from religion and can be incorporated into a secular. Into a secular life. And kind of the importance of the need for community, the need for humility, the need for empathy, the need for compassion, and the ways in which religion helps us access those things.

So it's interesting. But, yeah, I think that.

There are a lot of people searching for meaning, which is why there are churches like Reality, which are becoming very successful. Because, you know, there are especially. I mean, in this particular case in Hollywood, a ton of young people who are like, what the fuck? I moved here from Kabump, Iowa, and thought I was going to be Margot Robbie overnight. And actually I'm working at Starbucks in the Valley. And I want to kill myself because I've put all my emotional and spiritual energy into this one thing which isn't working out. So what does my life mean? So I think that, you know, there is a real search for meaning. There always is.

So that was one of the reasons why I was attracted to this because it was kind of honoring that search for meaning, but then seeing also how it can be corrupted.

And I like the idea too of sharing both of that. And I thought you did a beautiful job in the piece of sharing that even the preacher was very open to you and very welcoming. But you both happen to disagree on this issue of homosexuality. But I like that you, you really presented, I thought, a well rounded picture. And that's where I think atheists and agnostics can sometimes get it wrong. Is kind of rejecting all of religion wholesale and just saying, like, I don't want anything to do with any of it. And as you're describing, there are some, there are some really important pieces that we're missing and there's people doing great work on this. Casper at Harvard Divinity School, his last name is escaping me, but he's working on an organization called How We Gather and he's researching how especially millennials are gathering even at places like Soul Cycle that are creating a sense of community and even spirituality. But it's a little different. And I think, you know, I've actually never taken a Soul Cycle class proper, but I've done other cycling. But so I get a similar gist. But I really loved something in what you were saying. Reminded me Krista Tippett also interviewed a guy, John Powell, and I'll link to this in the show notes. And the title is Opening to the Question of Belonging. And this kind of blew my mind. I haven't verified the statistic, but he said that the fastest growing demographic in America is interracial couples or inter ethnic.

And yeah, it was just so interesting to me. It's, you know, he's not, he's saying it's not the Hispanic population that's growing quickest. It's not this population. It's not this, it's mixing. And that's partly why I feel like your reaction and that there are some religions and some churches and some communities like the ones your parents are part of that are wonderful like that have opened up. But as our generation continues to mix and grow and be friends with ideally, you know, more and more diverse groups of people that it's, we just can't tolerate.

Like, I, and I can't, I obviously can't speak for all millennials and not all millennials feel this way, but I grew up in San Francisco and I remember thinking it's absolutely ludicrous that gay men and women can't get married. Like, that's insane to me. We had the civil rights movement in the 60s, like, what are we still doing here? It was like shocking to me growing up that this wasn't part of our laws yet. So thankfully, at least by the time of this episode, it is. But tell us about the New Abbey piece that you're working on now.

Yeah, well, that kind of ties into what you're saying. So I'm currently, I just started my reporting for a new piece on this church called New Abbey, which is, I would describe it as an anti evangelical evangelical church, meaning.

It is founded by ex evangelicals who became disillusioned in these very.

Conservative mega churches and evangelical churches. They became disillusioned by the stance on homosexuality. They became disillusioned by kind of the aggregation of power and of wealth and the abuse of that power and wealth. And so they founded this church called New Abbey, which started out in.

One of the co pastors living rooms, just as kind of this way of deconstructing basically and deprogramming themselves from that conservative evangelical mindset and kind of saying, oh, what attracts us to religion? And how was it kind of bastardized by the evangelical experience we had? And so they created this church and it kind of quickly grew. It's in Pasadena and it is, it takes all the kind of superficial elements you'd associate with a quote unquote hipster evangelical church. You know, the rock music, the very hip young congregation.

The kind of the mode of.

Delivering sermons. But it removes all that conservative and oppressive dogma and is actually very pro lgbtq. They do a ton of social justice work. One of the co pastors is black lesbian. I mean, it's, it is so progressive and so beautiful and such a diverse community.

And.

It really kind of taps into that beautiful community that I saw in reality la, and then removes all the toxicity and all the repression. So it's a very fascinating church and I've actually met a few atheists who even go there, which is interesting. Again, I think it's just about this formation of a community.

That has resonated with people and allowed them to heal and also allowed them to heal from their evangelical experiences. There are a lot of ex evangelicals who go there who are working on reconciling their sexuality with their spirituality or reconciling their disillusionment with the evangelical church, with our spirituality, saying, you know, I experienced one thing and I was kind of programmed to think this way and now I'm completely thinking a different way. But rather than throw out religion altogether, what if I redefine what it means? So it's an Interesting. Very interesting place. I mean, kind of exploring similar themes I did in the Reality piece. But.

You'Re seeing the other side of the coin.

I love that it's allowing people to have inquiry. You know that by having a church like this, it's an example of, okay, yes, how do we not throw the baby out with the bathwater? And yeah, it's really cool to hear about a place like this. I'm curious because you're right in the middle of your reporting. What's a.

It's not a day in the life of a long form piece like this. But you mentioned that for Reality LA it was about six months of an immersion. What's the experience that you're gonna go through to write this piece? Like, how do you approach it? How much time will you spend? How do you know when it's done? I would just love to hear your process.

Oh, sure. I would say there's no exact science.

I start, I'll use the Reality LA piece because that's one that's finished as an example.

I start by reaching out to basically the highest level of leadership in whatever organization I'm profiling. So in this case it was the head pastor. And I just approached him, I said, I'm a journalist, I'm interested in profiling your church.

Is this something you would be interested in? And if so, let's talk more. And then he was. And I'm always very frank with my subjects about exactly how I'm going into the piece. So there are no surprises. So I told. In this particular case, you know, I think there are some interesting things about what you're doing here. I'm curious as to how your church works, but I don't agree with the fact that you think homosexuality is a sin. I don't agree that you think abortion is a sin, but I'm willing to sit down with you and talk about these things in a real way. And that was kind of enough for him. He said, yeah, sure, let's do it. And from there it's, you know.

It kind of varies on a piece by piece basis. But, you know, I started by going to services.

I went to, I think three services. I had.

Two extended sit down interviews with a head pastor.

I interviewed. I mean, a lot of this winds up on the cutting room floor because it's. Because you have to kind of go in and just say, I want to know everything and then figure out the narrative. So I interviewed multiple different parishioners. I went to events at the church that they were hosting. I went to.

Something called a community group, which are groups of small people or groups of people that are about 10 to 15 people that meet up throughout the week to, like, discuss the Bible and just have community.

I went to their big Easter service. So it's just. It's just a lot. And it's. And there's. At a certain point, it's like, I can't actually. I have to, like, cut this word count off at a certain point. So it becomes kind of how much. How much can fit in a piece like this? And then what is the narrative that I'm really telling and what becomes superfluous? So once I feel like I've kind of, like, filled up the well, then I say, okay, this concludes the recording. And then I go away and comb through all the transcripts and kind of figure out the main narrative.

And that's when the piece really comes.

Together. I would say is when I basically streamline things and select the story that I'm telling.

And that can be surprising, too. I had no idea I was going to include so much of my personal experience.

But then as I was writing this, I was like, well, why would I deny the audience my personal experience when I think it's kind of so important to the topic of.

Spirituality? How am I being affected by this community? Because I am, and I'm being affected deeply. So why not use my own experience as kind of a way to let the reader into this world? That's kind of the rough idea. But every story is obviously different, and.

I think it was so important and added so much that you included your story like it was the perfect thing to kind of weave into the discussion. And it sheds so much light on your exposure to these communities and topics throughout your life. You know, it's something that. You didn't just dive into the church community to write this piece for six months. You grew up with two ministers as parents. And so you've been around. You've. You are very well versed in this. You are. Have been exposed to many different groups and throughout your life. And then as a gay man, like, I've just had to ask these questions. Probably way more than the average churchgoer might have had to.

I'm curious, have you thought about turning all of this into a book someday and. Or a screenplay?

Probably not a screenplay, but I have. I have thought about it.

The structure hasn't.

Occurred to me yet, I would say. I think that this is a topic that I will definitely be exploring for a long time to come. And I think that there definitely could be a book in it somewhere.

I'm just not sure what that book is yet. And I think I want to explore more before heading into book proposal territory.

Just because.

I just want to immerse myself a little bit further, I think, in this world before I kind of step back and say, okay, how can I frame this into a larger context? But, yeah, it's definitely something I've thought about and I'm considering for sure.

Well, I love the direction that it's heading. I feel like, again, you have such a unique viewpoint and then such unique intersecting topics that, like even hearing you describe the New Abbey Church and having gotten there from Reality Church, la, and I know LA also has Agape Church that is very progressive and I don't think it's denominational. I don't know if you've ever been there.

I haven't, no.

But anyway, yeah, this is like, this is going to be such a rich area of research and writing. And if you do write a book, count me in as an early reader.

Yeah. And if you could leave listeners with one nugget of wisdom or an experiment or just something that you would ask them to try this week that's related to all this, and it might even just be a mindset shift of some kind, what would it be?

Sure.

I would say search for.

Meaning beyond your immediate material circumstances.

I would say that find a way to.

Take a break from kind of the drudge of your daily work life or your romantic life or whatever's causing you stress, and just find a way to center yourself for your own sanity.

And kind of disconnect from the material world if you can. It's hard.

It is hard. I'm going to ask you actually a final, final question, which is, how do you do that? So given that you're not part of any one religion or church, what are your spiritual practices that help you find meaning beyond material things?

I would honestly say that's something that I'm working on. And I actually think that this line of reporting and this kind of exploration of.

Spirituality is something that has helped center me just to consider the question and examine different communities and how they're finding meaning has actually been centering and kind of wonderful for me to say. So that's it.

I love it. Well, I love that it's. You're on the journey as we all are.

Yes, we all are.

Jonathan, thank you so much for sharing your perspective and for doing this work. I cannot wait to keep up with all your future research and articles. And you'll have to fill us in on the film side of things as well.

I will.

Thank you so much. And where can people find you on the web if they want to reach out or keep in touch?

Oh yeah, you can find me on Twitter.

P. Ramage.

And on Instagram @jprampage.

Yeah, reach out.

Say hello JP Rampage. That's epic.

Yeah, I'm going only on Twitter. I mean only on Instagram, on Twitter. I just straight up, JP Ramage. I got a little handle.

That's so great. I love it. Jonathan, thank you again. And I'll link to all of your great articles and the medium piece in the show notes.

Great. Thank you so much.

Thanks so much for listening to this episode of the Pivot Podcast. Make sure you don't miss an episode or my insider tips and templates by signing up for Pivotlist, a curated twice monthly newsletter where I share the inside scoop on what I'm reading, watching, listening to and the latest tools I'm geeking out on. Sign up@pivotmethod.com pivotlist get show notes from this episode@pivotmethod.com podcast and connect with me on Twitter ennyblake.

Remember, build first, then your courage will follow. Hasn't it always.