112: Whose Voice is in Your Head? Perfection Detox Round Two with Petra Kolber

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See terms of Venmo Me Stashterms. What's next? This is a question we're all having to ask and answer more frequently. I'm Jenny Blake, your host of the Pivot Podcast and author of Pivot. The only move that matters is your next.

For show notes from this episode. Visit pivotmethod.com podcast if Change is the only constant, then let's get better at it. Here we go.

Exciting announcement before we dive into today's show, My Heart of Podcasting course is coming right up. It launches on August 6 and early bird enrollment is open for just a few more days. I would love to have you join us. You can go to pivotmethod.com heart to learn more. I have to say, podcasting is one of the most rewarding projects I've ever done, and I'm convinced that it can be for you too. And it doesn't require overnight audio engineering mastery, state of the art studios, or even nailing the perfect guest list. If you're curious about how to start a podcast or just looking to bring more joy and authenticity and systems into your existing show, I would love for you to join us. The format of the course is five one hour live calls with me and I'll be walking you through all of my systems and processes. And not just on the technical side, but really the heart of podcasting. How I approach it, how I choose guests, how I handle interview preparation, post production systems behind the scenes. We'll talk about powerful questions and presence and even pros and cons of monetization. And if you're out summering the week of August 6th, don't worry, you can submit questions in advance and all the calls will be recorded and you'll have lifetime access to all of the course materials. I'm also super stoked about the kitchen sink of templates that I'm throwing into this course, as I always do. So in addition to the live calls, five days of content, you're also going to get a podcast setup checklist, a list of over 100 sample interview questions, standard ad rates, a primer on setting up a Patreon page, a sponsorship agreement template and checklist and a few other goodies that I'm just so excited about, including an ideal podcast Madlib to help you set the vision for your show. Again, this is open if you are just thinking of starting a podcast and want to know what goes into it or you already have a show and you just want to take it to the next level. Early Bird enrollment technically runs until the end of the day on July 31, but I know I'm late to the game in getting this announcement out, so if you enroll, just say that you're a podcast listener and we will honor the early bird rate for one more week which will make the course just $97. That is my way of saying thank you for being for listening. I couldn't do this show or this course without you. So to learn more about Heart of Podcasting and enroll, go to pivotmethod.com heart I can't wait to see those of you who enroll soon. Now onto today's show.

I am here today with one of my best dearest friends, Petra Culver. Petra lives in New York and I actually had her on the Pivot podcast back in January 2017 to talk about her body of work around the Perfection Detox. Very exciting that Petra's book is coming out any day now and I'm just so thrilled to have her back on the show. A little background in case you didn't hear that first episode. Petra is an internationally renowned fitness expert and wellness leader who is known as a crusader for change and a beacon of authentic happiness, helping people stand up for their lives and live profoundly from their hearts. Petra, by the way, lights up every single room she walks into. She's just like a bouncing ray of sunshine, but that doesn't mean that she hasn't had her own challenges. In her 25 years in the fitness world, she has starred and choreographed 60 award winning videos and fitness programs and has worked with many top brands including Reebok, Gatorade, California Walnuts and the Daily Burn. As a two time cancer survivor, she is passionate about waking people up to the precious gift of time. Her mission is to inspire people to move more and fear less so they can stretch their dreams, strengthen, strengthen their courage, muscle and build an inspired life full of joy and gratitude and fun. Fact about Petra in her spare time she's learning how to DJ and is a budding cook and avid traveler and has an awesome podcast of her own which has the same name as the book the Perfection Detox. Petra, welcome to the show.

Jenny, thank you so much for Having me.

So when we last spoke, it was a year and a half ago. Yeah. I don't know exactly what stage you are at with the book, but I would love for you to just share with listeners what the journey has been like for you in this last year and a half working on a book called the Perfection Detox. Because I've got to imagine that you got a front row seat to that inner critic in working on this project.

Oh, yeah. Let me tell you, if you're not sure who your inner critic is, just go for your big hairy dream and she'll show up front row and center going, here I am, sister. You thought I was done. I think. You know, Jenny, when you said January 2017, I had not even written the proposal at that point. I know I was in the ideas of doing it. And thanks to you and our dear friend Dorie Clark. I mean, seriously, you have been my life rafts throughout this entire process.

Once I got the book accepted by traditional publishing. A, what a gift. And B, what a terrifying thing for a recovering perfectionist to have to do. Because all of a sudden, here I am entering a new world where in the past I was known in quotations here, not my language, a fitness expert. And all of a sudden, I'm now the newbie again. I'm like, oh, my gosh, you know, I don't know anything about writing a book. I, you know, a book publisher is telling me, we believe in you. And then I'm like, I got six months to turn this thing around and get it out, you know, to the publisher, meet their deadlines and. And also wrestle with my inner critic along the way, who was very quick to tell me, you think you're a writer? Who do you think you are? So it was not only wrestling with the power of the perfect written word, but wrestling with this little demon in my head that was really quick at the beginning to remind me how bad my grammar was. You know, do you really think that's a good flow of the perfect book? So I learned a lot about myself during this process. And like they say, Jenny, you teach what you need to learn, right?

Totally. And there's so many points about working on a big project where I feel like the inner voice says, oh, you should already know this, or a variation. You don't know what you're doing, but of course you don't know what you're doing. Because if it's a first for a big project like writing a book, you're not going to know. And yet that voice can be so Paralyzing.

Oh yeah. And it's so interesting, you know, I tell people this all the time. If you know everything, A, you haven't stretched yourself enough and B, your dreams are not, you know, you've been doing the same thing over and over. And yet when it came to myself having to ask for help, that actually came easier to me, Jenny, than I thought it would like. I reached out to you and Dory all the time. But I think the big thing for me was not that I didn't know it all, but it was more like who do you think you are to be writing a book? So that kind of like double edged sword, like growing up in England, it's like, don't think, don't dream too big, you know, you know, don't stand out from the people next door, you know, don't get too big for your britches. And so it's that little bit of almost like false ego going now do you really know enough about this to write a book? You know, where's the expert? Where's the whole. Like I always say, my Achilles heel was my, you know, you're thinking I'm not smart enough. So where's your PhD? Where's your master's? And I'm like just, you know, my master's in my, is in my life is in my seven years of struggling with this, my two years of workshopping this. But yet, you know, we once our heart knows one thing, but our head still is very quick to point out the gap between who we are and who we think we should be.

I love that context that you shared about the cultural aspects of British culture. Not to stand out too much. And then you also very poignantly share your story and where the perfectionism got its start when you say whose voice is in your head? And that often when we're young and our self concept relies on other people, if somebody makes an awful remark, it sticks. And for you there were a few, two that stood out. Your father is a drunk and you could stand to lose a couple pounds. And you say that from both of those, particularly the latter, the shame sat in your soul for years and hid itself as an inner critic.

Yeah, I mean one was the inner critic and the other was the outside facade. You know Jenny, because it's interesting, like going back to where I grew up, this little town called West Kirby where you felt as a child that everybody knew all of your dark secrets. In reality they're all so busy trying to manage their own lives and hold their own like false ideal, you Know, image of their perfect family together. No one was really worrying about my father and going back. In actuality, my father was revered in that town a because he spent our mortgage buying beers for all the boys at the golf club, which put my mom into a terrible place, having to, you know, work three jobs to keep a roof over our head. But everybody else's opinion of my father was not the one I thought. I just thought everyone saw my dad as a fall down drunk. But in reality, when I go back, most of the dads on my street were also a bit of a drunk, you know, because that's what they did. The boys would finish work and they go to the pub. But yet, growing up, I thought I was the only one. So this inner chaos that was happening in my house, I. I took that as I have to appear really together and knowing it all and all in from the outside so people wouldn't see this backstory that I felt was such a travesty, for lack of a better word. And it felt. I didn't know what shame was at the time, but I definitely carried shame around with me from morning to night without even realizing that's what I was feeling. And then the inner critic part came from. It began with dance teachers and choreographers either not saying I was good enough to make it in the world or, you know, yeah, you could stand to lose a few pounds. A passing comment that as well as a revered choreographer who I just idolized, he's one of the top three choreographers in London at the time. He said that in a passing comment. I guarantee you, Jenny, by the time he left the studio, he'd forgotten it. But I took that comment with me for the next five years.

Oh, I could relate so much. When you talked about, you said the difference between exercise and movement and the often exercise is a way that we shame ourselves. And you said maybe the workout I had just missed would be the one that would eventually unravel the career I had worked so hard to establish. And I can relate to that. So much of thinking one workout, if I miss one workout, then I'm gonna lose my momentum, I'm gonna gain weight. And then if I gain weight and the spiral continues from there. And so from that choreographer saying that one thing and isn't it amazing what we choose to let stick from people, you know?

Oh, yeah. And it's no, yeah. And it's all the people and we don't choose it.

It just sticks. It just sticks.

Right? Yeah. There's that saying negativity sticks to us. Like Velcro positivity slides of us like Teflon. And even today, you know, you get a negative review or someone didn't like your show or my show or God forbid, I'm getting ready for, you know, the book. Maybe someone didn't like the book, but yet there's going to be so many people that are helped and served from the work that you either listener does. Yet the one we gravitate to is that one that is kind of proving to us, see, I told you you shouldn't have written the book. You shouldn't have done the podcast. You shouldn't be up on that stage talking. And it's crazy. I mean, the good news is I catch it a lot sooner now, Jenny. And I'm like, I look. People say to me, now you've written this book, you've done the work, do you still struggle with it? I'm like, yes, and I catch it a lot sooner. So I might lose a minute of joy to rumination and self doubt versus like a month, which could have been in the past. And also I just appreciate it as a part of my humanness. And I think.

Everyone says, is this something you get over? I don't know if perfection ever really goes away 100%. Because the great news that comes with, with us managing our expectations of ourselves is that we then get the resilience and the grit to go for bigger dreams. And then the challenges with that. The bigger our dreams, the more the prime territory for our inner doubts and demons to come up again. So it's like this constant dance. But the good news is now I get to see it for what it is. It's just a false belief. I ask myself the question, is there more work to be done here? That's got not a reflection of my worth, Jenny, but maybe, maybe I do need to do more research. Maybe I do need to practice my keynote more. Maybe I could get better podcasting equipment so I don't always have to be in my closet. I don't know. But again, that's not a reflection of my worth. So one thing I have been able to do from this work, and hopefully I've helped others do the same, is separate who you are from what you do and especially what people may say of you.

Yeah, that's so good. It's such a great reminder. You quoted Seth Godin as saying, in order to be remarkable, people are going to remark about you.

Okay, and let's. And I'm gonna jump on this, Jenny, because whose book was behind Seth Godin? Was your pivot book. And I don't even know this, but again, you know. And what I love about you, Jenny, is you're in the book. You have truly shared some of your doubt and doubt demons. But yet look, you are now, you know, behind remarkable Seth Godin, there was your book. So to do remarkable things like Seth, get Seth. Seth said you're gonna be remarked upon. The good, the not so good, but yet it's not. It's easy for us to say right now. It's horrible. When you get a negative review, it still hits me like, oh, it still wounds me. But it's like a little pinprick versus, like a gaping, gushing heart wound. Now it's like, wow, okay, interesting. And then I might. Depending on where the feed, the criticism's coming from, I might look at it briefly to see is there any value in that? But then also, you can really pick apart very quickly or pinpoint quickly. Someone was having a bad day or they just don't like you as, you know, whatever you're doing. And that's okay because we can't, you know, the more we get narrowed down on our message, what we believe we want to share with the world, you know, the more we're going to narrow down the people who resonate with our message. So that's okay, too. Just really quickly, I think my coffee just kicked in. But I heard Gary Vaynerchuk say the other day. Cause he wrote that book, jab, jab, hook. And I listened to him, and I love this analogy. He said, we are. You're either an offense or defense. And as long as you care more about what people say about you than the work you're doing, you'll always be on defense. I was like, oh, that's good, you know. Cause the more we're kind of dodging, trying to make everybody happy and love what we do, the more we're always gonna be kind of manipulating and kind of tweaking the bits of ourselves that we show to us show to the world. So I just thought that. Oh, that's interesting. I don't want to be on defense. I want to be moving forward with an open, loving heart and trying to do good things as we all do, you know?

Well, and that goes to. What you've said is that you'd rather be public with your imperfections than perfect and silent, essentially. That if we're. If we're playing defense too much, we're essentially silencing ourselves.

Yeah. I mean. Cause if we wait, oh, my gosh, you know, this if, if I was waiting to write the perfect book or do a perfect podcast or do the perfect keynote, it's never going to happen. And so I had to let that go. And you know, it's interesting. It's not that I'm changing. I, I care more today than I ever have done. And I know how deeply you care about the work that you do, but I've changed where I place my caring. When I was in fitness industry, and I still am to a certain point, I really cared about getting a five star evaluation. And now I'm like, I don't really care about that anymore. I care about giving a five star experience. It's all about the minute I move the caring onto my outcome versus the outcome of the people I'm talking to or speaking to or writing to, it's always going to be a dark rabbit hole because then the ego steps in and the ego needs to protect myself and. But if I can take the light off me and shine it on the people I'm trying to help serve, not always easy, but it allows me to take that inner critic and that inner judgment and that doubt and question myself is like, oh, have you become now, has it a little bit become the little I? You know, is it really about your self esteem and your self worth? And maybe there's some inner work I haven't been doing for a couple of days and just that's how I could often tell in my own life whether I've moved into the little I, is that sense of, of what people are gonna say about me and they're like, oh, it's all become about me and not about the people I wanna help. So just a little refocus, a little reboot and then it helps me get back on a track that's closer to what I need to be doing.

I also learned a jujitsu move for criticism or what feel like attacks from Byron. Katie and her strategy. No matter what anyone says to her, she says, I agree. So if they say you're crazy, she'll say, I agree. You know, just the other day I did this and this. And she'll find an example somewhere in her past where that person is right. And they could say to her, this is her example. You could say you're a murderer. And she said, you're right. The other day I had ants in my kitchen and I killed them. You're right. And now you don't have to take it that extreme. But most recently I was actually on my friend's Alyssa's show that that she's pivoting the show. So this episode isn't gonna launch. But it was about trolls and how to deal with trolls and bullies. And while we were recording, I went to my Amazon page and I found there was a new one star review. And so I kind of read it while we were on the show together. And the one star review was. I know. So it was like real time, real time response. And it was like, you know, you are ignorant. You don't know about people's financial situations. You don't address this at all. This is for privilege. Privilege. And at first part of me wanted to get defensive, and that's this thing of we're either on offense or defense. It's natural to want to puff ourselves up or defend ourselves. And there is a whole chapter on finances in the book. I just couldn't make the whole book of financial treaties. But I realized she's right. There are so many people who don't get to pivot. And pivoting is a privilege. And it is a privilege when we quit a good job just so we can go take a great one. And I didn't acknowledge that well enough in the book. Whether it deserves one star, that's up to her to decide. But she's not altogether wrong. And so practicing this from Byron Katie, has also taught me it's helped me take the sting out. Because whatever someone says, if I can acknowledge some piece that they're right, it actually becomes informative and it just doesn't need to become this all or nothing attack or cutting me down somehow.

Yeah. And what you. I mean, that's great advice. And I love Byron Katie. And I think what you managed to do there, Jenny, because of, you know, because we learn how to grow, is you separated the one star from you. It wasn't a personal attack on Jenny Blake. It was like, oh, well, maybe I could have. If I separate myself from the work that I'm doing, maybe next time if we do something else around this, I can address that little piece in a. In a better way or a more cohesive way. And again, though, you're not questioning your work. Is that so? I think, you know, and I think, yeah, go ahead, Jenny.

So it just occurred to me in this moment, neither are we associating the one star with that person's identity. Because I think a lot of times what we want to do is say, well, that person's crazy. They don't know what they're talking about. They're sitting in their bedroom doing nothing. And I'm Here, writing a book like I remember people said things like this when and because my favorite one star review, you know what it is. But everyone, if you don't know my favorite one star review said about my first book, life after college, if you've never thought about anything ever, this book is for you. So I mean, I don't know how much more perfect you can get for a one star review. And it's tempting to want to even make a judgment about the other person and, and it's not necessary, it's not helpful.

Can I ask you a quick question? Yes, please. What was your favorite best review?

Oh, there's so many. There's so many.

But can you remember one verbatim?

Bad track. That's very tricky just saying.

I know, I know because that's what we do. I still remember and I don't wanna get too far off topic, but I still remember a negative review from 25 years ago at a fitness convention. It was so vitriolic. Is that the right word? I'm using a big, like, oh my go use a big word. And I'm a writer now. But it was so, I mean, yeah, it was so demonizing of me as a person, but that, that was, it felt very person about, felt very personalized. But yet you said my first response was very correct. It was to gay. Well, what must they be thinking? What kind of life are they living? And like you say, if I can even say, oh well, they're right or, or maybe in something like that, I say, well, that's interesting. So I don't even say it's right or wrong. That's interesting. But then let it go, you know, versus even judging them. You're right. Because I think I do do that sometimes. If it's a really negative thing, I'm like, well, they must be in a bad space. They haven't been doing the work, they just hate the world. And that's not helping anybody. But I could say if there's nothing that I could really utilize and nothing constructive in that criticism, that I can move into the next iteration.

One thing, if there is, great. But if not, maybe I just go, well that's interesting. And then let it go. Not ruminate on it, just let it go.

Sometimes it's truly, you cannot make everyone happy. So on the subject of speaking, there were a couple events where I spoke to rooms of a thousand women and the survey feedback would come back and many, many people you asked if I could remember. Well, many said, love Jenny's energy, she's so friendly. And relatable and interesting. And this was so helpful, Very transformative. Favorite session of the whole conference. And then there might be, I don't, you know, it was hundreds of responses. But let's say for every 10 of those, or not even probably for a hundred of those, there'd be one where she said, couldn't stand Jenny's energy. She's so relaxed and informal, like, pick up, pick up the pace. You know, like something that was just in direct opposition to what other people enjoyed. And there would have almost been no way to make both of them happy at the same time. But on the subject of positive feedback, I do think it's interesting that you do have a section on downgrading the power of praise. And one thing that perfectionists do, we talk a lot about the inner critic, but we also, I think, set this very high bar for everything. Even you talk about anecdotes of how good of a friend you can be and trying to reciprocate invitations or gifts before you're even almost done receiving from the first person. So tell me what's important about downgrading the power of praise?

Well, I think, yeah, no, I think, Jenny, it's all about kind of like the caring aspect. It was a quote I heard from Quincy Jones many years ago. He was talking about Whitney Houston and like her and Michael Jackson, always wanting to hit that high note. You know, you're always, you are defined by the praise. You are defined by the wins. And he said, do not let the critics get to your heart and do not let the praise get to your head. Now, there's nothing wrong in seeking, you know, validation for the work that you're doing. But if we define ourselves by the highlight moments, and that's how we value ourselves, we are setting ourselves up for such failure and also these high, high expectations where we can almost like cripple ourselves because we then always have to keep raising the bar. So for me, it's all about, and I get this a lot, people going, well, if I don't try, if I'm no longer striving to be perfect and going for like that five star experience in my own life, not other people's, does that mean I'm basically gonna sit on the couch eating Ding Dongs? I'm like, no, no, no, no, no, it's not about that. It's still working hard and valiantly, and you might even do more work, work harder than you ever have before. But we're not doing it for the outcome of praise. We're doing it for the outcome.

It.

Is that we are at that moment in time with this thing called real life. Because real life is not static. It bounces around. There are moments when we can be, you know, excellent and maybe even perfect sometimes in certain areas of our life. But life will knock you sideways. There'll be trips, there'll be illnesses, there'll be relationships, there'll be jobs. And if we're always looking for that five star praise a, then what does that mean about us, Us when we don't get it? So it's about shifting again, not, you know, there's that, that's that saying that we know so well. You know, life is not about the destination, it's about the journey. And there's. We do need goals, we need, we need metrics and boundaries that we can measure ourselves by. But it's not this idea of being at the expense of anybody else or at the expense of our own joy. So again, I just keep coming back to if you. If the only thing that we are validated on is by praise versus the work that we're doing and the effort that we're putting in.

And the dreams that we're stretching and the things that we're trying that we wouldn't have tried last year, I just think a.

The room for error is very narrow. The room for anxiety and stress is very large. And at the end of the day, what are we measuring? Are we measuring our joy or are we measuring someone's praise on what their opinion of us is? And not to say, look, there's nothing wrong, I love it. Look, if I get a. If someone says, I love what you're doing, of course I love to hear that, but it's not me. It can never be about me. It's that somewhere in there my work or my language or the words I use resonated with them. So I don't know if I've explained it well enough, but it's just about what comparisons are we using? What are we using as metrics of success? And if it's praise or perfection or five star results every time, it's not a joyful way to live. And it's. We're always going to wait for that shoe to drop.

Yes. And it's very slippery. It's very hard to create just to get praise. I mean, I'm with you, of course. I remember and cherish and love so many of the positive notes and feedback that I get. It's what keeps me going. But it's very hard to create with that in mind. And to try and be seeking that. What you were saying reminds me of Carol Dweck's work and how she recommends telling kids you worked so hard on your homework rather than, well, you're so smart. And I know you cite that research in your book, and as I. As I'm speaking in this moment, it also reminds me in your book about these concepts of beauty and even aging, which you talk about on your podcast, where instead of praising ourselves for being so beautiful by traditional standards, you say social media is when perfect went viral with Photoshop and everything. That instead of praising ourselves for these externally validated things, we have to learn to praise the process and how hard we worked or who we are or what's inside, what's in our heart, what's what, how much joy are we experiencing, how generous are we? And that's not always an easy bridge to gap, especially for you, coming from the fitness industry, where you are directly and constantly judged on how you look.

Yeah. So why do you think this girl at 50 went, I'm going to write a book on perfectionism.

So I created a career where I'm allowed to age in my way. But, you know, all joking aside, and I think that's why we went so wrong. And you were saying, everything that you mentioned that is of value is internal. And I know you talk about this a lot, Jenny, but unfortunately, what the fitness industry did and social media will continue to do. And again, it's not to push back against social media because it does not have an opinion, but it might definitely skew our opinion of ourselves if we're constantly using that as the metric of beauty or success is there's always gonna be someone younger, thinner, more toned, more trimmed, more beautiful. Always. That's fleeting. And the kind of fitness we did this to, without even realizing it, we made what we looked like the body, the definition of success. Instead of the body being the vehicle to move you into a life of success, whatever success means to you, a life of joy, a life of bravery, a life of exploration, a life of being a mom, a life of being an entreprene, a life of being a writer, whatever that might be. This is just the vehicle. And this vehicle is gonna get rusty, and it's gonna get wear and tear, and it's gonna get bumps and dings. But if we know it's just the. It's the object, and instead of objectifying the object, it's just the vessel, then we get to remember it's what's inside. The resilience, the grit, the kindness, the Generosity, the friendships, the work, the body of work, like you said, the ability to pivot, you know, all of these choices, ability to make choices, the ability to bear kids, the ability to put up with breakups and relate, whatever it might be. And all of that is gonna leave, you know, dings on your body. And, gosh, it's not easy. But let me tell you, I do not want. I keep saying this with. I just was speaking to someone about. I think one of the hardest things still for women especially is the mirror and truly making peace with ourselves and truly looking ourselves in the mirror and going, I love you. And I'm gonna be honest. I haven't done that yet. I've done that outside of the mirror when I'm not looking at my own reflection. I can truly honor and love who I am, but I do not want, Jenny, the last three decades of my life to be spent beating myself up. And so if I do catch myself up, looking at my body for objectifying my body and picking it to pieces, my wrinkles, whatever it might be, I just stop and I go. I refuse to beat myself up because every time I'm having a moment or we have a moment as women, beating ourselves up, those are moments taking us away from the moments we could be doing great work, helping our friends, helping our loved ones, raising our kids, sharing our voice, our imperfect voice with the world. And I'm just like, God dang it, as I get older and you, my favorite millennial, it's, you know, what do I want to do? Am I going to be comparing myself to these amazing women around me who may be 10, 15, 20 years younger than me? Or am I going to focus on all the things that we have in commonality, trying to change the world together, make the world a better place every day. It's a choice. And I got to tell you, when it comes to our looks and aging and all of that, that crap, it's not easy. But again, we just catch ourselves. We recognize we're perfectly human. We all go through this, and again, it's when we made perfect the new normal. That's when we created a real trouble for ourselves and our heart and how we're spending our life.

Yeah. You call it a kaleidoscope of catastrophe.

Yeah.

The present just slips through our fingers. And I also love how you share the book. If the golden rule is treat others as you want to be treated. The Platinum Rule is speak to others as they want to be spoken to, then the Diamond Rule is speak to ourselves as we would speak to Those around us. And that one's so interesting. Like, I think that's a good homework for everyone. Listening is the diamond rule. Just how are you speaking to yourself? And it's wild how much comparison we must be. Comparing creatures like this has to go to evolutionary biology somehow and evolutionary psychology. Because I can look at you and think you're just one of the most radiant, beautiful women I've ever seen. And it wouldn't cross my mind that you would look in the mirror or have trouble looking in the mirror. And then when you share your story, it's so powerful because we can see that this is something we all deal with, we all confront. One of my favorite parts of the book was you said you stopped pouring thousands of dollars into Botox and put it into your business.

Instead, listen, trust me, there are moments where like, oh, screw it. I'm gonna go back to the needle. But again, if I do, I will. I'll be honest about it. You know, it's been a year and a half since I've had a needle in my face. And I'm not judging it. Any of you out there. It's not a judgment. But for me, I was doing it for the wrong reason. I'm telling you, I was doing it for the wrong reasons. And, you know, so my. So my face is holding up. But what about the rest of me? I just feel at some point, this outside package, you know, God, when I start dating again, you know, my. What's underneath my clothes has got to match my face. Otherwise, it's going to be one shit show of, like, you know, you know, looking one way with the, you know, being held up by injections. And again, there's nothing wrong with that. But again, I'm trying to do this work and make peace with my own life so we can help. I don't have kids, but help the teenagers that are dealing with chronic anxiety. And this will really impact how we look at our lives, how we look at ourselves. And again, I was saying this to someone the other day. I find it interesting as women, if we suddenly catch ourselves in the mirror and we look tired or we're looking a little older, we'll go, oh, my God, I'm so tired. I'm so old. But then if you catch yourself in a mirror where you go, oh, I'm not looking all right, today, the first thing we'll say is good lighting. Or, that's good lighting. It's simple. But, God, isn't that the truth? You know, we take on the negative as though it's us. And anything positive will just like, discount or we'll just brush it away. And even with praise, if someone, you know says something, oh, Jenny, you did great work. Oh, thank you. We'll just kind of blow it off. So I just think as women and as people listening to your show, men too, just allow ourselves to savor the good of who we are and not to make that egoic. But until we can love ourselves, Jenny, and until we can truly, you know, and I'm still working on this, look at ourselves and appreciate all of what we are, how on earth are we going to really bring our full selves into the world and do the work that the world is wanting us to do?

It's so true. And there's an underlying thread here that we haven't picked up on directly, but you mentioned it in terms of your childhood environment and that's control. And I only learned, I'd say in recent years, I only really connected my perfectionism to control. If I could control, you call it in your book. You say the faux full package we like. I for years thought. And the anecdote you share about me in your book is about how my book was launching and I had everything going for me professionally, but I was starting a new romantic relationship and felt very insecure. And that was absolutely true. That even though I had confronted some of these perfectionism and control.

Practices or habits in terms of my business and career and money, I hadn't yet had to dive deeply into them in terms of relationship. And I felt very insecure. I felt very much like I needed to be the faux full package and it be some perfect ideal in order to control the outcome, to control how it was unfolding, to control whether this person would stay with me or not. As if I ever could control that. And it wasn't until a coach said it to me. You know, I asked her, why do I have so much fear when it comes to relationships? Just said, because you can't control the other person. And I was like, oh, there it is.

You know, I know.

It explained so much of why the fear was remaining because it was this very subtle attempt at control. I mean, not subtle. I mean, geez, like it was running everything, but subtle. It was a blind spot for me.

Yeah, I want to just say thank you so much for your honesty because when we went and worked on the book notes, I had actually stayed away from your age. Incredible honesty around relationships. Because this is the stuff we don't talk about, you and I. We can like shoot the breeze about, you know, Perfectionism in work and in speaking, because that's still a little removed from our heart, right? But then when it comes to our relationships, our relationships with our girlfriends, our loved ones, our male partners, at the end of the day, as much as we look, we can show up perfectly and they still could leave. It might at the end of the day and it still comes back. And this is the thing that I just killed me every time. It's never about the other person, whether they stay or whether they leave. It's all about, how does this make me grow? What can I learn about myself to not get better? Not about that, but what do I need? What wound do I need to look at? Because that's what relationships are about. And your bravery and your honesty, Jenny, the one we can really dive into because we talk about this idea of perfection. Take off the. Take off anything we're doing at the core of the matter when we are fighting, whether you see it as perfection or a lack of courage, it's a lack of feeling enough, this enoughness. We don't feel as though we're worthy of this beautiful relationship. We're not feeling. We don't feel enough or deserving enough of the job of our dreams. We don't feel enough to go and start writing that book. And that's when. This is work. Why I try to bring joy to it, Jenny, but it's tough because it's really our heart saying, enough, enough. I want you to love me. I am enough. And it doesn't mean that there's not work to be done. There's not research to be done, there's not, you know, items to be re, you know, keynotes to be worked, whatever it might be, your work, it doesn't mean there's not more work to be done. But God, man, if we can't look in the mirror and go, I'm enough.

Right?

And at least get better at closing that gap between feeling not enough, recognizing it. You share another tool that I thought was so good from psychologist Edith Grotberg. I have. I am. I can. So maybe you could fill in the blanks, like give us an example of an I have statement. I am and I can.

Well, that's all around resilience. And this is stuff that we don't often talk about because, you know, you know, as a perfectionist, I feel like I have to do it all myself. Right? And we expect that we should have all the answers. So when it comes to building resilience, I love what she said too, you know, I have would be The Jenny Blakes and the Dori Clarks of this world. You know, it represents the external support that we have around us. So we're not. Resilience doesn't happen in a vacuum. I am represents our inner strengths. Like, it's so interesting. Gallup. Recently, I was doing a talk about resilience in the workplace, and they say strengths can be developed, the infinite, but weaknesses will never be turned into strengths. I was like, oh, that's interesting. But I am represents the inner strengths, you know, ones that we have and ones that can be developed. And then I can represents problem solving skills that we already have inside us or also the skills that we might need to acquire. So that's why I love the idea of when people say, I am enough. That's one thing I like to say. I am enough. And there is still work that I want to do, you know, because I don't want to. This is just. I'm just beginning, you know, I got so much stuff I want to do in the next decade or so. But again, it's the idea of, I think what she says, and she said it so beautifully. When it comes to resilience, when it comes to self worth, when it comes to trying to live a life of our dreams, it doesn't happen in a vacuum. It happens. Excuse me. It happens in relationships with our friends, our loved ones. And that's why this stuff is so tricky. As I imperfectly swallow some water. Hold on. This happened. This is the second interview that this has happened to now. I'm like, what's going on? Okay.

Maybe it's like a signal that what you're really saying is so on point that it marks the occasion.

I love that. Perfect. Thank you. I will use that from going on forward.

Yeah. Michael used, like, whenever he would get a text message, Ding. Usually has the sound off. He would say it was confirmation of whatever thought he was thinking at that time. So it was how he didn't let little bings annoy him.

So it's what? Refocus, refrain. Good job.

Confirmation.

Absolutely.

It's so interesting that as you've pivoted out of fitness and a focus on how the body looks toward happiness. And I know this has been a huge shift in your attention the last few years. When you first started, people actually commented and wrote to you on social media and said, how are you doing this? Tell me your secrets. That you realized you are kind of projecting that same flawlessness that you were seeing that had caused anguish within you. And how has that changed the way you show up online now and in person, of course.

Yeah. I think this is really important, actually, with social media and especially with what's going on in the world right now and with our children. I mean, I don't have kids, but if you're listening and you have young men and daughters, you're raising them, we need to be aware of this. That again, it's that saying Steven Furtick said, the reason we're all struggling with our insecurities is because we're comparing our backstory to everyone else's highlight reel. And what I was doing without realizing it, Jenny, I was doing all these posts about being happy and, you know, how to raise your happiness quarter and. And I was never really talking about any challenges that I might be having now. I also think there's a thing is over sharing on social media. And I think we all. I would encourage us all to think wisely about how do I want people to feel, how am I contributing to the noise? And I want to. I would. I like to hope that I'm elevating the conversation versus bringing people down. But what I didn't realize, I was actually making people feel worse because they were like, they were writing me things like, how do you stay happy all the time? I could never be that happy. And so without realizing it, just like with the fitness industry, people going, I'm never fit enough to get fit. People are like, there's no way my happiness isn't going to measure up to yours. So while I didn't necessarily go on and blur my whole, like, whatever might be going on in my life, there's no point. I did share that. I also have struggles. I have down days because there's this whole idea, you know, I was the perfectly happy girl and no one connects to perfectly happy. I was like, well, Petra's always happy. How can I relate to that? So again, it's that full package. You know, we think that we are. We used to think full package means only the good stuff, but that's just half the package. And I think when we can share all of ourselves, our true, authentic self, without burdening other people, we're not going online to look for sympathy or to get back at someone. Or I always say, people go, well, when do we share our stories? I say, ask yourself three questions. Am I looking at anything? Am I looking for something in exchange for this? Like, if I'm going to go on and do a post about, I don't know, a tweet that someone did or made me feel bad or something, I'm Looking probably for sympathy. No need to share that. You know, I'm looking for something in return. Is this gonna make the other person feel worse about themselves? Am I trying to do this as a power play? And this might just be subliminal. I might not even be aware of this. But if I'm trying to, like Byron Katie says, puff myself up. I think it was Brene Brown or Byron Katie, don't puff yourself up. If I'm trying to puff myself up, don't share it. But if I can connect with someone at a heart level and make them feel less alone, that I'm on this journey with them, and I have a couple of tools and strategies to get us out to the other.

Then that's what I choose to share now on social media. And just recently, Jenny, I had a little. A little pivot moment of my own, to coin your phrase. I used to say we connect through our cracks, and now I say we connect through our cracks, but we don't want to hang out there. So we might connect there, but I want to show you the tools and strategies to get out of the cracks and back into your life.

I also love the Leonard Cohen quote that cracks are how the light gets through.

Yeah.

So we can connect on our cracks. And that definitely creates a sense of. Oh, me too. You know, even when I was reading your book, I had so many moments. Like, one of just, if it's a hot and humid day, you in the past were more likely to say no because you didn't want to show up looking sweaty.

Oh, my gosh. And as we're standing in our closets right now doing the podcast, sweating to death. You know, and I still have moments that because I do sweat like a guy. I gotta be honest, I'm not a pretty. I'm not a pretty sweater.

But, like, we're not friends because of these quirks. It's like.

Exactly.

I mean, yes, actually. It does make you so lovable and amazing. It's why I love being your friend, because it's always authentic. I think that's what it is. It's not connecting in our cracks. Sounds kind of weird. And, like, staying there.

It'S like, because of that, you see the whole person. You know, My friend Penny would call it transparency. Transparency. You're being you. And I have to say, this is one of the things that I love about podcasting. People who've tried to find me on social media know I'm not really on there, and I'm not trying to hide anything at all. But I didn't like the game I would play. Like, I didn't like only sharing a highlight reel or let alone just sort of taking myself out of the moment to share day to day stuff. Some people love it and that's. That's great. But on the podcast, there's not really anywhere to hide. So anyone who listens to your show listens to mine. The true personality comes out. It's like the only way to do it. It's live, it's in the moment. You're having a real conversation with another person. Which is also why I don't tend to be drawn towards shows where I can tell someone's just reading off of a script. I actually don't enjoy those, even if they're sharing content lessons that are ostensibly very helpful. It's not my thing. And I'm curious how you have found podcasting, being a recovering perfectionist.

Well, I think. I mean, you helped me a lot, let me tell you. For everyone listening, let me tell Jenny is just as generous off camera, off audio as she is on audio. You mean you taught me how to do it all? I think the hard thing for me is, oh, the struggle has been I have to learn how to delegate a little more, to be honest with my podcast, because as you know, with a book launch, I don't have the time to do it all, like the show notes and the graphics and upload it to Libsyn and all this other stuff. But yet I have got to find I still have many great people that could do this for me. I'm with you. I love a conversation. I like to have the guests give me three questions to get started, but then I want to go where the conversation goes because that's when the good stuff happens. And sometimes the conversation's got nothing to do with what you thought it was going to be. But when we keep trying to get back to the point, you know, or hit those speaking topics, it always feels a little contrived. So I love it. I gotta say, I'm a little lax right now. My. My podcast was every week, and then it went to every other week. Cause I just found it too much to manage. And now this is where the perfection, the recovering perfectionist is. I'm like, girl, when you can get it up, you get it, you know, you gotta show up, you know, And I just got to be okay with that because I was meant to put one up yesterday on Tuesday, but there was other more, I hate to say more pressing things, but I had to make a choice between something that was for the book launch or something was my podcast. I'm like, oh, right now I gotta go for the book launch. Because people were waiting for me, you know, on some stuff and then just doing the best I can with what I have in the time that I have.

Absolutely. And I feel like too, what I was sort of commenting on with the podcast is less about the mechanics of it. And I love your example of how you're just letting it go and you're doing what you can, and that's great. I'm so convinced that your listeners are not going to be suddenly disappointed with you the minute they see you've missed a week. Like, I just don't think it works like that. And there's still such an incredible body of work that you've already created with the show that's there no matter what, even if you didn't do another single episode, which I know you will. But it's also that intimate sharing of yourself, like, just by the questions you ask and the anecdotes you share with your guests. Yes. You are revealing a part of yourself that won't always come through in a snapshot in time that shows up on Instagram, for example.

Yeah. And I think that's what I do like about podcasting. And that's why I don't do video. Also, Jenny, because there's something about. Even as much as, you know, both you and I have been on camera, if I know there is a camera on me, as much as I'm very transparent, authentic, there is a little bit more of a barrier. I'm second guessing there's another thing I have to manage. Whereas it's just audio, you're in the moment.

I'm better able to focus on the conversation at hand. And like I say, every time I get. I've had a really big resonance with the audience. It's always been an unexpected moment with a guest. You know, we're also. The guest has revealed something. Not for the sake of revealing, but we went down a. We went down a conversation that was unexpected. And then the audience goes, oh, my gosh, I knew so and so, but I had no idea about this part of their story. And it's a beautiful fascination. It's not from like a drive by scenario. It's not looking at everyone's, you know, what's going wrong in life. But again, it's that connectedness. Like, oh, I thought they had it all figured out. And it actually made me feel a little bit less alone when they shared this part of their story.

Totally. So Petra as we, as we wrap up, there were a couple, two different distinctions in your book. The difference between rumination and reflection and then procrastination and percolation. These are so great and they actually all have things in common. So I'm wondering if you could leave all of us with a tip or a piece of homework on noticing the difference between rumination and reflection or even procrastination and percolation.

Well, I think I like the. I love the idea. Well, the science behind rumination comes from, like, when, like, cows would just chew on stuff and, like, ruminate and chew on the cud. So it's like the difference between rumination, reflection. Look, I, as much as you and I and everyone, our powerful moments land in the present, but yet we learn from our past. And it's good sometimes to look back at our past and go, things that I'd like to bring into the present and into the future, things I did well, maybe I reflected, reflect back on things I could do differently. Maybe my next relationship, my next job, my career, whatever it might be. The difference between reflection and rumination. Rumination, I think, always happens around a negative when maybe you're triggered, you have a negative memory or you're thinking about yourself, something you did in the past you wish you could have done differently. And let's take that for an example, that maybe I made a mistake in my last job, for example, and it suddenly comes to mind and I'm in my new job and all I'm doing is going over this mistake and this mistake and, oh, my God, what happens if I make it in this job and all I'm doing is running this old negative tape over and over in my head, but I'm not stopping to do anything else but just ruminate on it and run it. And it's always spiraling me downwards. Now, if I was going to reflect on that same situation, maybe there's something I did in my past job that I could have done differently and more effectively in this one. I will look back with loving kindness, with appreciative inquiry, like, ooh, this situation's coming back up in this job. What could I do differently? I'm simply asking myself a question so I can come up with a solution. So I'm not just running over what could have gone better or differently or didn't go well. I'm looking at that with an analytical, loving, kind eye of what can I learn and what can I do differently? And then create an action step that I can bring into what's in front of Me might not be the perfect action step, but I'm taking action to move into something more positive. Negativity loves to ruminate, you know, and we. We have to stop. We can make a pause of that and just like, come back to the present by connecting to our breath. Snap out of our senses, take a walk, Just something to move. Our state will help us move out of rumination. And then procrastination versus percolation. I mean, I have been known to do both. I think think the end goal is if we're waiting for it to be perfect, we're probably procrastinating. If the energy underlying the reason for not pulling the trigger is fear, doubt, worry, judgment, more than likely, we're procrastinating. Whereas I've often, like, I've got a keynote coming up, but I've been. I'm like, oh, I need to get to this. But it's not that I've been procrastinating. I've actually been percolating all these ideas in my head. A friend of mine, Susie Moore, calls it, there's also a thing called a procrastinating, and I love that. And I've done this. I spend all my time seeing what Jenny Blake is doing, what's Dora Clark doing, what Susie Moore doing, what's so and so. And then I never get to what I'm doing. So I think there's this idea of we can always learn more, but not at the expense of getting your work out into the world. So just ask yourself, is this like Seth Godin says? Is it good enough to ship? Because the way it's gonna get closer to being perfect is by getting feedback. You're never going to ship out the perfect item because it needs feedback. It needs iteration 2.0. And ideas die in isolation. They thrive in collaboration. So it means sharing your work before you think you're ready, tweaking it as necessary. Hey, and sometimes you're going to hit it out of the park first time, and then when that happens, celebrate and savor your success. Success.

Oh, so well said, Petra. I have a feeling you're gonna knock it out of the park with this book. And I'm just so excited for you. It's been incredible to watch your journey, and I can't believe that our last podcast conversation was before you even had the book deal. And now it's coming out, all of you listening. I think you're gonna love it just as much as I did. I got to read an early copy. It's called the Perfection Detox Tame your inner critter. Live bravely and unleash your joy. Petra, thank you so much for being here. Where can people find you if they want to learn more about the book and keep in touch and send you a one to five star love note? You know any rating?

Oh my God. Pressure here. The best way to find more about the book is just go to perfectiondetox.com and it has all the links and the information about the book. You can always reach me directly just@petrakolber.com and I just want to say thank you to your listeners for the gift of their time. You are absolutely awesome and one of my favorite things is now you don't have to be perfect, you just get to be amazing. And Jenny, thank you for being the perfect partner and just, you know, supporting me and helping me stay resilient in those moments when I doubt it. If I have, I can. And all of that stuff and for your friendship and your support. It absolutely means the world to me and I couldn't have done this without people like you in my life.

Oh thank you Petra. It's the highest honor.

Thanks so much for listening to this episode of the Pivot Podcast. Make sure you don't miss an episode or my insider tips and templates by signing up for Pivot List, a curated twice monthly newsletter where I share the inside scoop on what I'm reading, watching, listening to, and the latest tools I'm geeking out on. Sign up@pivotmethod.com pivotlist get show notes from this episode@pivotmethod.com podcast and connect with me on Twitter ennyblake.

Remember, build first, then your courage will follow. Hasn't it always.

Sam.