115: "People are People" — Exploring Neurodiversity with Mark Rufino

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What's next? This is a question we're all having to ask and answer more frequently. I'm Jenny Blake, your host of the Pivot podcast and author of Pivot. The only move that matters is your next one.

For show notes from this episode, visit pivotmethod.com podcast if Change is the only constant, then let's get better at it. Here we go.

I'm so excited to be here today with Mark Rafino, a social worker and audio engineer. Mark works with adults with developmental disabilities and their families. And as serendipity would have it, we met on a video shoot that I was doing for Franklin Covey on Careers and Mark was in the background working on audio. But as we got to talking between takes, Mark, I started to become fascinated with his work. I also mentioned the topics that I had been exploring on the Pivot podcast and lo and behold, the church that he does freelance audio work for here in New York City, Redeemer. Some of you might be familiar with the founder and head pastor, Timothy Keller. They were holding a three day conference coming up that very weekend held by the center for Faith and Work. So I ended up meeting Mark there the following night, getting a great preview of what this center does. And he we are now recording the podcast. So Mark, welcome to the show.

Yes, thanks for having me.

I was so fascinated by your work with adults with developmental disabilities and I want to get into some of your practices because I think they're very interesting for all of us to be aware of. But first, how did you get into doing this type of social work?

Okay, so it's a, it's a little bit of a whining story, but definitely fits in with your whole Pivot theme because I went to college at Trenton State College in New Jersey, which is now called the College of New Jersey, in 1992, and I was a music education major. Both my parents were music teachers in New Jersey and I played tuba at the time, so it was actually a tuba major for my first semester of college. And my instructions from the tuba teacher were to go talk to the bass Teacher being a bass student. So I guess that tells you where my future in tuba was headed. But the more I got into it, I realized I was really unhappy studying music education because I really didn't want to be a public music school teacher. I really have a lot of respect for them, but just realized it's not me. And I kind of was doing it because I said, this is really the only thing I know how to do, and I just have to do it. And both my parents did it, and my parents never put pressure on me to do that. But partway through my freshman year of college, I got very, very sick and was ultimately diagnosed with ulcerative colitis, which, to make the long story short, the following year, my sophomore year, halfway through my second semester, I had to drop out of school to have surgery, have my large intestine removed, and have some other things done so they could reconnect everything. And so that was three surgeries. And that allowed me a lot of time to sit in the hospital and think.

And after my first surgery, I had never had major surgery before, so I recovered a lot faster than I thought I would. And I was sitting at home doing nothing. And my parents basically said, you know, your job is to get well. Don't worry about getting a job. Don't do anything. Just get well. You can only watch the prices, right, for so long before your brain starts falling out your ears. So then I really said, I need to go get a job because It's March of 94, and I can't go back to school until September. So my mother had cut an ad out of the paper to work for an organization called the ARC of Morris county, where we lived. And I wound up saying, nana, I can't do that. And it was saying, to work with adults with developmental disabilities, teaching life skills. And I thought, oh, you need a teaching degree for that, and I don't have any experience, and I'm not qualified. And you'll hear that as a theme probably throughout the whole podcast, me saying that over and over. And she just kind of said, why don't you go check it out? I bet you could do it. And I didn't know anything about this at all. But what I did know is I had just been extremely, extremely sick for two years, took a lot of medications, really felt terrible, had a lot of help from people, including social workers, while getting well. After the first surgery, I had it at Mount Sinai in New York. And so I wanted to help people at that time, and I knew I didn't want to Be a doctor. I know I didn't want to be a nurse, anything like that, but wanted to find some way to help people. And at the time.

I was really not such a happy person. I don't know if I'm a happy person now, but I really wasn't a happy person then. And I definitely was very self centered and I was the guy that would crack jokes about the short bus, things like that, you know, stuff that I'm maybe not so proud of now, but I guess it's all part of our development. So again, to make a long story short, I wound up interviewing for the job at the arc and I got a job as a permanent sub at this apartment complex for adults with developmental disabilities. Had no experience. And my whole life up to that point, which, you know, I was 19, so there wasn't that much of it yet, but I had worked all these low level jobs, you know, in supermarkets, pharmacies, et cetera, and, you know, never treated particularly great up until then at work. And now suddenly here's this place that was really happy to have me come. And I had really, really long hair then, which prevented me from getting certain jobs. And they, they, they said on the first day of orientation, do not wear nice clothes to work. And they really didn't care how you looked. And I thought, oh my gosh, I'm home. I can't believe somebody just told me not to wear nice clothes to work. I still don't wear nice clothes to work.

Just to show there is a job for all of us.

I say that all the time. And I think we probably talked about that the day we met.

So my first day at the arc, I'm at this apartment complex and they said, you're going to drive this person to a meeting, you're going to take this person out to dinner, and by the way, we'll pay for your dinner. And then you're going to help this guy cook a meal and then you're going to help this guy shower. And I thought, oh, okay, so when do I work? And I guess I just, you know, it. I loved this job and I really developed good relationships with the people I was working with. And I don't know whether it was instinct or me just having come from this tough experience that I had, but really just saw people as people. I didn't look at their disability and look at what was wrong with them, but who they were. And I didn't realize I was doing that at the time. So the next important part of the story was after my second Surgery, which was during the summer of that year. Now had been working at this job for about three months and just loved it. Loved the coworkers that I had, I loved the people that I was serving and. And I was talking with a friend of mine who is an incredible guitar player. His name is BD Lens. And BD and I were in college together. Turns out he was dating my best friend's sister, now is married to that guy's sister. And he, like I said, was an incredible guitar player, but was a math major, not a music major. And right now he's a public school math teacher still to this day, and still an incredible guitar player. Does tours during the summer and on school vacations and has many, many albums out. And he said to me, if you don't want to study music, don't study music. And again, I'm sitting in the hospital with nothing but time to think. And I thought, but wait, that's all I do. And he said, I bet that's not true. I bet there's other stuff you love doing. See if you can make a career out of that. And when he said that, that'll be one of the moments of my life I'll never forget because it just really hit me like a ton of bricks in the head that wait, I love going to work every day at the Ark. Why am I not looking at that as a career? And so I thought I was going to be an occupational therapist. When I went back to college, I transferred into the special ed department, but I was a non teaching special ed major and I was working at the ARC of Morris County. I worked there for seven years, about three and a half of them at this apartment complex. And then I had another job that I didn't like so much at the arc, which was more of a. I was an assistant manager of a in home respite program and quickly discovered I'm not management material at all and went back to working in direct care with people in an independent living program. So people who lived in their own apartments in the community and again just had great relationships with the people I was serving. And so that was a little bit of a warning story, but that's how I got into it. And then I wound up getting a job when I finally realized that trying to make a living as a musician in a cover band in New Jersey or trying to be a famous musician, neither of which really particularly happened.

Wasn'T working out and working part time at the ARC at that point, maybe I should start using this degree that I had finally earned. Earned from Trenton and not making $500 a month living in mom's basement. So when I was 26, I think I wound up getting a full time job with another arc. So there's an ARC in every county in New Jersey. And I think others probably the same.

I love hearing how naturally you took to it. It sounds like as you pivoted your way through both with music and audio, but specifically working with ARC and working directly with individuals, just how natural it was for you. Because I don't know that we could all say that. I don't know that most of us, some may have direct experience with adults with developmental disabilities. Yeah, when you say that term, what kinds of disabilities does that include? Of course, not that I want to stay focused there, but just so that we can all get on the same page with you.

Sure, sure. No, actually, I think that's an important point because. Yeah, well, so. Well, now the correct term would be intellectual disability. The old term was mental retardation, but now the correct term would be intellectual disability, cerebral palsy.

Autism. Although it's funny because now so much of my work is with individuals with autism and their families. By the time, I didn't even know what that was and it really wasn't until later that I got into that part of the field. But yeah, so things like that. I've few people that I worked with with spina bifida and I really enjoyed working with those individuals.

So that, you know. But now I would say probably a lot of my work is with individuals with autism or somewhere on the autism spectrum or people with adhd, which I kind of think is related. And I have adhd. So I'll look at it from that standpoint too. It'll be pretty obvious as you hear me talk that I have ADHD as well. Um, and also now I work with individuals, a few individuals with fetal alcohol spectrum disorder, which is a little bit different than fetal alcohol syndrome. But what I kind of say is my niche seems to be the people that fell in the cracks and don't really fit in categories and boxes. And I don't know if that's because I'm also one of them, but I just seem to relate to people who fell through the cracks. And I kind of have a heart for people who are not getting services. A pastor of a church that I used to go to at one point had said something, and I'm paraphrasing, probably not correctly, but, you know, he'll hear a teacher bragging about bringing in all these amazing programs or something in a really rich town. And he'll say, well, I mean, that's great. There's nothing wrong with that. That's also awesome. But you know, what about trying that in an area that's underserved? And that's what I really like is going into places where people don't get services. I had a grandmother of somebody I was working with once tell me, and it's really kind of sad that I even have to say this statement, but she said, white folks don't come into this neighborhood and tell us things that we have a right to or that are something that we're entitled to. Nobody ever told us that we could have this service or this service. And that was really sad to me. And thinking, just because you live in such and such a neighborhood, you know, your grandson has autism, that doesn't know anything about where you live or how much money you have or anything like that. And being somebody who went through a difficult time. And I remember, I don't remember who she was or what her name was, but I remember her clearly. This nurse that really helped me recovering from my third surgery, which was a really rough recovery, even though it wasn't supposed to be. And when you've had intestinal surgery, it's going to be low, gross for a second, but your digestive system stops and they're waiting for it to restart. You can't leave the hospital, you can't eat or drink anything until your digestive system starts. So they're waiting to see, essentially, when are you going to poop, when are you going to pass gas? And I never had anybody celebrate a fart so much in my life, but it was a cool moment. But here's this person where I am sore from being in the bathroom so much, spraying me with anesthetic at about 3 o' clock in the morning with a smile on her face and saying, I hope that you're doing well. And thinking, that person could have complained about this. And what a. You know, I'm 20 years old and here's this nurse. I don't remember how old she was, but she couldn't have been that much older than me at the time. And it was just no big deal. It was like, no, I'm here to, to help you. I understand why you're in discomfort and that that's something that's really stuck with me because, you know, sometimes you encounter really difficult situations or things that are really sad and you realize that I can't get so caught up in that. I mean, I can have empathy for that. But I'm here to help you with whatever we can, and let's focus on that and not the other circumstances. I don't know if that makes any sense or if that answers your question.

But first of all, there's so many gems in there, really. Like, I love that she had a smile when she asked you. And this question that the pastor asked all of us, every single one of us listening to this episode can, I can say for myself, I can certainly do better about saying, what about trying this in an underserved area? We can all ask that question of the work that we do. What about, what about trying this in an underserved area? It's part of what's led to my passion for doing even pivot work in prisons or with those who have been incarcerated, because I don't think I did a good enough job asking. And I did the best I could at the time I was writing Pivot, but asking that very question, how does this apply in underserved areas or groups or anyone who might not encounter my book on their own or this type of training, who didn't work at Google or have that environment? One of the most powerful things that you said, and this was you said it totally in passing. The day that we were filming, you were talking about asking what's behind the behavior.

Yes.

A lot of times, especially for people who don't communicate, let's say, in the direct way that the rest. That many people do. You asked the question, what were you trying to tell us? So I would love if you could explain that and maybe if you have a story that comes to mind about this, because it's really interesting.

Sure. Do I have a story? Too many? You're going to have to stop me. Absolutely. No, I will pick one and I'll pick one. Actually, that just happened on Monday.

You had asked me before we started recording, you know, what should I say that you do? And I said, don't. Don't call me a behavioral therapist. And the reason I say that is because, you know, there's people with a certification called a BCBA Board Certified Behavior Analyst. And I used to have a lot of battles with people like that or a lot of disdain for that, because they would look at the behavior. And a behaviorist point of view is I can get you to do anything if the rewards are correct. And it's about motivation. I'm not making that sound really great. It's a very valid way of treating things, and it's something I'm not good at. And I had to realize that. So. So I look behind the behavior, and sometimes that's not appropriate for the situation, but when it is.

So what. What I'm talking about is somebody will ask me a question like, how do I stop so and so from hitting? And the classic example I will use is, well, I have no idea why is he hitting? And I don't know, he just. He just hits. He just gets angry. Okay, but what's making them angry? Well, what do you mean? But something makes you angry. You're not just angry for no reason, right? Nothing happens for no reason. We may not see the reason. We may not be able to understand it at the moment, but there is a reason. Now, sometimes the reason is psychiatric. And if. If that's true, then a psychiatrist should be involved most times. But, you know, let's. Let's accept that. That it's. Except. Except that for a moment and just say that it is a, quote, behavior issue. Well, behavior just means something we can observe. So one of my pet peeves in the field is when somebody says so and so is having a behavior. The only people that don't have a behavior are dead. And actually, even they do. They're just lying there still. But if we're breathing, if we're doing anything, we're having a behavior. So I can say, I'm looking at you right now and you're blanking, you're smiling, you're nodding, you're sitting with your legs crossed, whatever it is. I can make observations, but those are just the words. So you have no idea what I'm thinking right now except by what words I'm using, and I have no idea what you're thinking except by what words you're using. So if I say to you, wow, that was great, or yeah, that was great, I just meant two really, really different things with exactly the same words. So what's behind what I'm saying? And so getting to the classic example that I will use, I told somebody who said about her son kicking. I said, oh, my daughter was kicking all weekend too. And she said, oh, that's terrible. And I said, well, yeah, she was in the soccer tournament. And she said, oh, yeah. But I said, no, but that's my point. The setting meant makes such a difference. When I told you she was in a soccer tournament, then kicking became totally okay. Or when my other daughter was in a fight, well, she was in a Taekwondo tournament. So she was sparring. But it's not a bad thing because it's the right setting for that. So what Is the person telling me now, if somebody hits me in the face, I might guess that you're upset. But rather. And of course, I don't want somebody to hit me in the face, and I don't want somebody hitting their parents in the face or anybody else in the face for that matter. But I do also want to ask, you seem really upset. What's making you upset? Even if they can't answer me in words, because I. I think I've discovered over the past, let's say, year, it's become really much more clear to me that just acknowledging what somebody's feeling, even if you're wrong, just trying to acknowledge what somebody's feeling is really powerful. And so something I've come up with recently to answer that question is.

I've been telling people, and I came up with this through giving a training on two staff at a day program who were working with one of my clients. And. And we came up with this phrase, and I've been using it ever since, and I'm liking it a lot, which is make an observation and ask a question. So saying to somebody, I noticed that you are hitting, and I'm thinking maybe you're angry. Is something going on?

And that. That has gotten a lot of mileage because it gives somebody an opportunity to answer you in whatever fashion they could answer. It also gives them an opportunity to disagree and say, oh, no, I'm not angry. So when I was doing my first year internship in social work, I did it at my job, and the. The social worker who was my. My supervisor, mentor, we were in a session with this family, and.

She said this was family counseling with this particular family. And the mom had depression and some other things going on, and she said something about her husband doing something, and the family. The therapist said, wow, you're really pissed off at him. And the woman looked at her, said, no, no, and I'm not pissed off. It's just a little annoying. So anyway, session's over. We're outside, and I say to her, her name was Arlene, and unfortunately she passed away now. But I said, arlene, were you listening to her? I mean, what would make you think she was really upset? She said, oh, no, no, I didn't think she was upset, but she doesn't want to talk about anything or she can't talk about anything. That's more accurate. So I had to prime the pump a little bit, and I got her to disagree with me, and I got her talking and I said, oh, my gosh, how did I not see that? While it was happening. But there's a lot of value in that of just. Even if somebody can disagree with you, it starts a conversation. So a lot of my work focuses on how do we do things that start conversations rather than just telling somebody to stop. Because I've always been a person who. I don't like to be told what not to do. I want to be told what to do. So rather than somebody saying, you can't do that because of this, and you can't do that because of this. All right, cool. I mean, sometimes you need to know that, too, but tell me what I can do, because I'll do it. And so this week, like I said, I had. And I'll make this example quick, because I know I'm going on and on, but.

There'S a gentleman I work with now who has autism and for years was thought to be really not very communicative, and he would ignore people and just want his own way and on and on and on. And for the first year I worked with him, I just felt like I was sitting there doing nothing, and I was putting a lot of pressure on myself that I should be accomplishing something. Because a lot of our sessions were. He'd want to watch YouTube videos or things, and I just sit there and watch with him. And I'd be asking him questions, and he wouldn't answer, and I'd see he's getting a little annoyed with me. But, all right, we just have to increase rapport, and I'm getting impatient. I need progress. People are pressuring me for progress, and it turns out nobody really was. It was more me. But anyway, about maybe six months ago, he was playing some songs, and suddenly I realized, oh, my gosh, I've been asking you about, oh, you like Van Halen, what about this? What about this? And then I realized the songs that you're playing me, when I just looked at the words, you are telling me what happened to you. He had a traumatic experience, and you're telling me what happened to you, and you can't. He does talk with English language, but he does not necessarily understand how to say, I am upset because such and such happened. He internalizes it, and he knows what he's talking about, but he can't get it out of his mouth, even though his brain understands it. And I realized he's do. He can get it out of his mouth, just not with English language. He's playing me songs that are telling that story and playing me clips of movies, High School Musical, et cetera, about what's happening to him. And it was mind blowing. And that opened up so much for me realizing there are. I'm. I'm looking at people communicating by, you know, quote, maladaptive behavior, which really just means not appropriate for that particular situation. Going back to. Is kicking okay? Well, it is if you're in a Taekwondo tournament. It's not maladaptive there. It's maladaptive if you're upset with your parents.

So I realized this guy has been telling me and I've been missing it, and now it's. It's left me with this piece that I don't have to understand everything right away if I'm not getting what you're saying. Let me just sit back and just keep listening as you hear. I can talk a lot. And.

You know. Yes. Do I have things I can teach people? Yes, but they teach me way more than I can ever teach them. And that's only going to happen if I listen. And he really reminds me of that every time I meet with him. Well, this Monday, and I can't get into specifics, of course, but he. He came out and said something directly, and it was me sitting with him and his parents. And the three of us were just blown away by what he said because he said something really directly to me, which let me paraphrase, so I don't give anything away, but he basically said, mark, you need to come with me to this place and help me talk to them. He's never done anything like that before. And that's from understanding that you were telling me something in a very different way, but it's really valid. So what's behind the behavior? The traumatic experience centered on his reaction to something that was going on that he didn't know how to say. I don't like it. People were teasing him. And it doesn't sound like it would be something of consequence unless you try to see it through his eyes. And the way that his autism has him processing information and putting everything into categories. And again, to more speak about it, generally, people were joking with him being a fan of a certain sports team, and he's not a fan of that sports team. And he was really taking this to be extremely upsetting, but didn't know how to express it. And it wound up with him doing something particularly aggressive and being labeled as a guy with behavior problems. And he was removed from that particular program and realizing, man, look at that. He knows how to say, I don't like it, but we've been missing. We've been missing it. He's been telling us he doesn't like it, but we've been missing it.

So how amazing that you just to stick with it until. Until you cracked the case, basically, on this piece of it.

You know, you could say that, but I honestly don't feel like I did something.

Of cracking anything except saying, wait, I keep trying to solve it and be the guy who cracks the case. And what I need to do is put all that away and just listen.

And listen in a slightly different way than you might be used to. So it wasn't coming to you through his words, but it was coming through words and sounds and songs. You mentioned something that. A sentiment that you share. My friend Adrian works with autistic children, and I've asked him about his work, and he said, I learn as much from them as they might possibly learn from me. And I'm curious, over all the years that you've been doing this work, what you've learned or how it's shaped you.

Okay. The best lesson I've learned are people are people. And it sounds so simple, and it is, but it took me a little while to realize that, and realizing that I've met wonderful people.

And met some very.

Less wonderful people, let's say, with diagnoses. And just having a diagnosis doesn't say anything about who you are. It just is a framework for maybe a particular symptom that we're seeing or something. And that I've met people with a lot of ambition and ideas who have a certain diagnosis and people with, you know, who are conniving takers with the same diagnosis, you know, so that doesn't say who they are and that just people are people, and that if we focus on that part, who is this person and not what are they doing? And. And shifting my perspective from what's wrong with somebody to two different things. One is when somebody's been through trauma, because that's one of my passions going forward, is to work with people who've had trauma who are on the autism spectrum and similar kind of things, like I said, fetal alcohol spectrum, et cetera, where they're not necessarily going to be in traditional treatment for many different reasons or just didn't know that they could even do it. And the things that we would think of trauma, you know, you hear about domestic abuse and sexual abuse, things like that. And of course we would know that that's trauma or a major accident or something, but that there's all these little traumas and the. Just the fact of trying to navigate a world when you see the world a little bit differently. And the world is trying to say you have to fit into our mold. How difficult that is for somebody instead of seeing this is who you are and this is what you're good at, and how can you use what you're good at to find your place in the world? So I went to this job seminar about a year and a half ago. And the real appeal for me was that Temple Grandin was the keynote speaker. And so I was going to be able to go and I was going to be able to get continuing education credits and my job was going to pay for it. So, hey, that's a. That's a win. And I always wanted to see her speak and she was awesome. But one of the people doing a presentation talked about finding job placements and she said that she had worked with this woman in the past who was. Had such extreme OCD that. And she also had a developmental disability and this was in a hospital type setting, I think. And she said she was embarrassed to say it, but she would hide from this person when she would come over to her every day and pretend she wasn't at her desk because she would present her with this list of this is what I'll do and this is what I won't do. And she was so obsessive that just nothing was ever right for her. Until one day she said she came across this company that restored antique books and they had this particular job. And I don't even know what the job was, but that it was something where they had such a high tormentor rate. There was something like 20 employees in two years who had this because they would make mistakes. And if they would make a mistake doing this, it was something with the binding of the books. They would ruin this antique book that was worth thousands of dollars. And this woman was so obsessive that she would never make a mistake. Well, she said this woman has now she put her in this job and she has been employed with this Company for over 20 years now, I think. And the company moved and said, we can't function without her. We're paying for her with us saying somebody who's that obsessive, give them a job that needs an extreme attention to detail, where you're not in a rush. Getting it done right with attention to detail is much more important than getting it done quickly. My gosh, she's the perfect employee for that. And another woman that she found a job for who had. She said she had down syndrome and could not read, but had amazing visual skills so she could Match things. And she got a job in a doctor's office matching up invoices to payments where she just had to match the number to the number. And she was amazing at it. She couldn't read, but because she could look at it just as a visual shape, I guess that she didn't even have to look at the content of the invoice. She could just immediately tell if it was a match. So she was so good at this job. And again, the kind of situation where they said, we can't function without her. And that came up in the context that she had developed some interesting social behaviors. Like, didn't understand that you can't adjust your bra by lifting up your shirt in the middle of the office and just adjusting. Right. That you would. And they said instead of this company saying to her, you can't work here because you do stuff like that, they looked at it instead of saying, you have so many things that make you so valuable to us. We just have to teach you that there's a right place to go do that. So if you have to adjust, just go into the bathroom and adjust what you need to and then come back out. Because your skills are so valuable to us that we need you for that. And those things are. I love learning things like that because it helps me. I'm the type of learner where I have to hear something like that and then connect it with something else. Which is why, honestly, I think that people who fall through the cracks are.

I don't. I guess, for lack of a better word, makes sense to me because I'm like that and I have that associative kind of thinking. And like I said, I think ADHD is kind of. It's. It's. I think it's part of the autism spectrum. That's my opinion. There's no science yet. So just take that for what it is. Anybody who's listening, But.

So given that there's no science yet, but it's your opinion because it's right. Right. I haven't heard that there is some.

Science that's not true. It's not none. But it is just still my opinion right now.

It's not the mainstream.

I know. We'll start to wrap up, but if you could just briefly say what your experience of that is like or how your. How ADHD for you does relate to autism and those that you work with who are on the spectrum.

Yeah. So I think, because I have trouble in traditional situations too, I work for a company that's really non traditional and right now, my job involves traveling to people's houses to see them. So part of where I fit into your theme about Pivot is that due to some other health issues I'm having, now the travel is really starting to wear on me, and I'm thinking that I need to make some changes. And I work for a great company, which makes it really difficult, because if I hated my company, it would be really easy to say I'm just out of here. But I don't. But I really do like working with the people that I work with, and so I'm trying to find a way to serve them in a way that is not going to destroy my body. I had a little health scare last week and had to hear a very clear message to shut it down for a couple days. And my supervisor at work said, you need to take it easy for a few days. Stop traveling for a few days. Just tell people they have to wait. And that's hard for me. But.

One of the things I think is that I have very unpredictable hours at work, and I'm always in different places every day, and I never know what's coming up. And I love that. And ADHD really helps me with that, because doing the same thing every day or going to the same location every day is really difficult for me. So there's a lot of change. And then in particular, working with the people, when somebody starts doing that associative kind of thinking, it makes sense to me because it's how I think as well. So as you hear in the way I talk, I have all these little side comments that come in with everything, because when I mention something, and Temple Grandin talks about this a lot. So anybody who wants to know more about this, check out her. Her thing. She has a book called the Autistic Brain, which really talks about this kind of thinking. And when I saw her speak live, it really cemented her concept. So she said if somebody talks about shoes, she gets a picture in her mind of every pair of shoes she's ever seen in her life. Now, the guy I told you about who can do this with songs, TV shows, movies, he has a catalog in his head of everything he's ever seen and heard and can recall it to attach it to the appropriate situation. What he can't do is say, I feel upset, but he can find a song that says it. He can find an episode of Barney that he saw when he was 2 and tell you the date. He can tell you the date he saw that episode the first time. Wow. Right? So that's what you just said. That's my whole point. And everything I was saying is you said, wow. And I look at that as wow. That is an amazing skill. And the. I'll put it in quotes here. The old way of thinking was you have to stop that and get into the world and think correctly. And there's a new concept called neurodiversity, which is saying there is no, quote, normal way of thinking and autistic way of thinking, and that you have to get to the normal way of thinking. It's saying that we're all wired to do different things. And you see how this fits into what you say in your books and everything I hear you talk about on your podcast and that you said there's a right job for everybody. So if you're wired to be a introvert who likes to concentrate on one task at a time, you'd probably make an amazing book editor and probably make a terrible salesman. But if you're somebody who can't sit in one place for a long time and needs to interact with people all the time, you'd probably make an amazing salesman and a terrible book editor. And there's nothing wrong with that, you know, So I don't even remember what question I'm answering, but it brings a lot of things together for me, because a few years ago, one of my friends from when I was growing up, Joe, he's in it, and he said to me one day, mark, I don't know how you do what you do. And I said, joe, I don't know how you do what you do. You know, you get a call at 3am that the server in Paris crashed, that you have to get to the office, and you don't have a problem with that. I have a problem with that. He said, yeah, but you deal with people that might do things, that they might try to hurt you or something. I said, yeah, but I don't have a problem with that. And then I said, but you know what? That's why you do what you do, and that's why I do what I do. And we wouldn't be good at each other's jobs, but we don't have each other's jobs, right? So we have to do what we're wired to do. So, you know, your whole thing about pivot, the way that I've heard that, and I told you as I started looking at the book that I felt like you were speaking to me. A lot of this stuff is saying, you know, we're fighting against the tide sometimes, and if Something's not going well. Is that telling us something? That maybe this isn't what I'm meant to do? Maybe I'm meant to do this? Well, my friend BD said that to me when I was in the hospital and saying, you know, you don't have to study music. You can always play music. And I've played music more since I stopped studying music. I've done more audio engineering, etc. But not having studied it. And he's a math teacher, yet is, you know, one of the best musicians I've ever met in my life. That guy used to practice 17 hours a day with math books on his feet, running scales and arpeggios while he's studying math problems. And he's a public school math teacher and has a wonderful family and everything, and yet amazing musician. And it really said to me, yeah, you know, you have to do what you're meant to do. And so, you know, I have a lot of doubt. I always think I don't know what I'm doing. Imposter syndrome is something. I've heard you talk about it and I've heard a lot of people say this recently. I'm realizing, wow, that's. I didn't know the name for it until maybe last year, but that's so true. And I've always felt like an imposter. So trying to feel confident that maybe I'm doing what I'm meant to do and that if I don't know what to do, maybe I need to be quiet. It's funny now that I've just talked straight for 35 minutes and you've said three words, but maybe I need to listen.

Context.

It is the context. Right? There you go. So it all makes sense.

Yeah, exactly. Like this is. We're celebrating you and your work right now.

I guess. I guess.

And I feel like, I love that despite your imposter syndrome, you keep forging ahead. And isn't that. It's so true. If this whole conversation is about flipping our perception of things, on one level we would call imposter syndrome bad. But then on another, it could mean that, well, you're going to listen extra, you're going to be more open. Because if you felt 100% confident that you knew everything and how to work with every single person in your care, then maybe you wouldn't do as well. Whereas if you have more of a. What the Buddhists call beginner's mind.

Yes.

And even we could say imposter syndrome, maybe you're more shapeable that way. Somehow, of course, we don't want it to be crippling and hold us back from things. That's what I always think the balance is. As long as you have that feeling and you keep going.

Sure. And looking at strengths doesn't mean that you're ignoring that there are weaknesses. It just means that you're saying there are also strengths and if we focus on those. So I know that we're kind of coming to an end here, but one of the things that they said in social work school that made so much sense about dealing with behavior, which is why I'm so happy. I don't call myself a behaviorist because I don't really look with that view. And again, I don't denounce that view. Just it's not. My view is saying if you do more of what's right, there's less room to do the other things. Well, yeah, so that makes sense. If you look at a strengths based approach, do the things that you're good at. It doesn't mean that you don't have more to learn. Because you're right. Beginner's mind again. I was very happy when I learned that concept more recently in my life. But saying the day that I stop learning, that's going to be a terrible day. I love to learn new things. So the day I met you.

Maybe I shouldn't admit this when somebody's actually listening. I've never ever done sound for a video shoot before. I've never held a boom pole before. I didn't even have a real one. I was holding a mic stand I made into a boom pole. I didn't have any idea what I was doing. And it just seems, it's so funny that I wound up doing sound for an interview with you. Everything you were saying made such sense. It was hard for me to be quiet. That was the hardest part of the job that day, was to be quiet. As you hear, that could be tough for me. Yet, on the other hand, I am kind of an introvert. I'm not a real social person. So that's a very strange thing. And I've heard you say the same thing actually. But.

So when you know, you say build first, the courage will follow. And I thought, man, that's so true. Because I had no idea what I was doing that day. None.

Who would have known it. And then I'm reading all these books.

I appreciate that.

There's a woman who can see guardian angels. Her name's Lorna Byrne.

Okay.

And she wrote a book called Angels in my hair. And because I've been reading a lot of her work, it's like you can't help but smile at the perfect serendipity. Not just for me that you were telling me about the faith and work conference, but for you that you had never done an audio video job, but yet it lands in your lap. We got to meet. Then I met you at the conference, now we're doing this podcast and it's like if you just say yes to these opportunities, it's not about you trying to pivot to now become a video sound engineer, but that one happened to plant some important seeds, which I'm grateful to for both of us.

For both of us very much.

Man, you've said so many great things. And what I love is what you said, the strengths based approach and doing more of what's right. That even in the example of the woman working at the office matching invoices, there was so much she was great at. And it's not that when there is a weakness, you ignore it. And like the example of pulling up her shirt. But okay, that can be easily, easily adjusted and then. But the rest you're focusing on the person. So I always like to ask, my parting question is if you could give listeners one actionable step, something to do or piece of advice. Maybe in this case it's even an inquiry. And I know already it's a big shift of just seeing people as people and looking at their strengths even when they see the world differently. That's I think the key here because it's sounds nice in theory, but I would bet that many of us don't always do that in practice. What would a parting, homework or action to take be?

Okay, I have two things.

Perfect.

And as you started asking that question, I'm panicking, thinking I don't have anything to say. Okay, one is something that I am working on every day, which is accept that you made a mistake and make it into a learning experience because that's all we can do with a mistake. And somebody in audio told me a couple years ago, don't try to throw a bunch of fancy terms at somebody and make yourself sound smart when something goes wrong. Just say, this is what happened. I made a mistake, I'm working on fixing it. Just give me a second. And that has served me really well and every area of my life of just saying yes, that I got that wrong. And I work for a doctor who I've heard say in appointments with people I don't know. And I realized that's a really rare Quality and people to say, I don't know and admit that you don't know everything. So just accept that you got it wrong and build on it and move on. That's one thing. The other thing is I can recommend an amazing, amazing book that whether you work with people with autism or not, this thing blew my mind. And it's called.

Uniquely Human, something like A Different Perspective on Autism or something like that by an author named Barry Present P R Y Z A N T. And it's a pretty new book. You can definitely find it on, you know, Amazon etc and find it in the library. But it's kind of about this. And he has amazing stories about stuff, things such as we label somebody who has autism as obsessive. And he said, I have a cabinet with these walrus tusk sculptures in my dining room and I have hundreds of them now, but nobody calls me obsessive. They say I'm an enthusiastic collector. Yet if I had autism, they'd say I was obsessed with walrus tusk sculptures. So it's a great book just about looking at things and reframing them in general and looking at people's strengths. So Uniquely Human, that's called. But that book really, really changed my life about maybe two years ago when I read it. I don't remember how it came across it, but somehow I did. And very cool. So those two things. Accept that you made a mistake and find a way to learn from it and check out that book.

Amazing. Thank you, Mark. Where can people find you if they want to keep in touch or reach out, if anywhere.

Maybe you were really, really no place.

Sort of. Again, that could be a whole other. All other podcasts. But yeah, I'm not on any social media because I had some difficulty with that a few years ago and had to realize it wasn't good for me. And I have to be careful when I say that because I'm not saying that nobody should be on it, I'm saying I shouldn't be on it. And, you know, nothing legal or anything like that, but just I realized it wasn't healthy for my life. I was getting way obsessed, so I had to stop doing that. And also for social workers, they really kind of recommend that you really shouldn't be on there just because there's so many privacy concerns with clients and things. So.

You know, keeping their privacy private and also, you know, having some separation for healthy boundaries. So I would say if somebody really, really wants to get in touch with me, they. They could email you and you could get in touch with me or I can give my email address. It's fine. It's. No, it's okay. It's all right. Well, either way. But if somebody really wants to get in touch with me, you can. And if you search for me, you could probably find me. I. I will say, you know, like we didn't really talk about it much, but I have a whole other life as a musician and an audio engineer. So my band does have a website. My original project, which is shutterwax.com S H U T T E R W A X so I think you might be able to get in touch with me through that site. I don't run the site, but I'm pretty sure you can get a message to me. So if you really want to talk to me, I'm happy to talk to people about whatever as you're here and.

Feel free, you can send me a note jennyvotmethod.com and I'm happy to loop, market or forward it along. And Mark, you'll note you're in good company. There's a book making its way through the bestseller rounds called 10 reasons you should quit all your social media accounts right now.

Sure.

I think the guy's name is Jared. I'll put it in the show notes.

But sure sounds good.

Of course, it's becoming very popular, so you're in good company. Mark, thank you so much for the work that you do and sharing your incredible perspective with us today.

I appreciate that. Thanks.

Thanks so much for listening to this episode of the Pivot podcast. Make sure you don't miss an episode or my insider tips and templates by signing up for PivotList, a curated twice monthly newsletter where I share the inside scoop on what I'm reading, watching, listening to, and the latest tools I'm geeking out on. Sign up@pivotmethod.com pivotlist get show notes from this episode@pivotmethod.com podcast and connect with me on Twitter at ennyblake.

Remember, build first, then your courage will follow. Hasn't it always.