117: Tiny Marketing Actions with Pamela Slim

Cuando entras a Burlington encuentras precios increibles y regal los geniales jeso es energia del protagonista porque in Burlington los ahoros festivos nos unlo unico que llama la tension descubria jasgos de calidar y regalos perfectos paratodos entulista des de juges de belles.

Para de bajo del arbol.

It's not about just constantly doing things for hours and hours. It just means that you need to commit to something over time in order to see it come to fruition. And you need to be consistent in the area in which you're doing the focus right? If you send out to your target software companies that you want to work with, maybe it's going to take a year for them to really begin to develop a relationship with you. But if you try it for a quarter and then you're like forget it, they hate me. They're never going to follow up. That I think is a mistake.

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Hello hello friends. You are in for a treat today. I am here with longtime friendor if not one of my longest time friendors. Affectionately called Auntie Pamela Slim by so many on the Internet. She is an award winning author, speaker and business coach who works with small business owners ready to scale their businesses and ip. She's the author of Escape from Cubicle Nation which I read on a cross country flight planning my Escape from Cubicle Nation body of work and her latest the Widest Unlock untapped markets and discover new customers right in front of you. She gave a TEDx talk on finding purpose in the new world of work and she also hosts the recently launched Widest Net podcast where she shares the many ways entrepreneurs can build a thriving business in addition to basically OG podcasting before podcasts even existed. So Auntie Pam, welcome to the show.

I am so happy to be here.

I attended your workshop in 2009. We just determined back when you were just launching Escape from Cubicle Nation. I remember the room in Mountain View or Palo Alto. I was still working at Google. I remember the workbooks you handed out and watching you up there leading the room and as a true facilitator, just taking us all through the content. And then I still think to this day, one of our greatest coup de grace was that I brought you into Google for an author talk. And I think we were both.

I will never forget that.

Yeah, like, when are Larry or Sergey going to call and say, what are you doing, Jenny? Like, bringing in an author of Escape from Chemical Nation? But we did it.

We did it.

And it was great. You gave a great talk.

We did it. And I remember that because my kids and Darrel actually came with me. So it was really fun because they were hanging out outside on the Google campus, which is just fun having those memories with them. But in the long arc of Escape from Cubicle Nation, I've just been on the road a bit in May, and I did have that moment where I just owned the fact of, like, I sort of saw the future a little bit before other people saw writing Escape from Cubicle Nation, before the great resignation. And it's just encouraging, as I know, in the work that you do, to see that sometimes in our view, as coaches and folks who are tuned in to the world of work, there really are trends that I think a lot of companies don't see. And it actually doesn't have to be scary. Right. I've never been somebody to just discorporate and make everybody leave if they don't want to.

Totally. And you also coined, or at least I think you helped popularize more than anyone, the term side hustle.

It was my best friend Desiree Attaway's daughter, Taylor, who used that term. And I wrote a blog post about it way back in the day, but it was not as commonly used at that. So I had credited her when I wrote the blog post. And yes, it was one of those things. And seeing a whole bunch of folks talk about it after, again, I didn't own the term, but knowing how things were back in those days of blogging, where there just was really the opportunity, I think, to help bring forward fun language and shape the culture a bit.

Right around the same time, you also did that infamous guest post for Guy Kawasaki's blog. And that's around the time that I think you probably coined this term watering hole. But when I think of you, I think of finding the watering hole for my ideal people. And whenever I'm talking to other business owners or coaching, that phrase has just been so powerful throughout this last decade of where are your people gathering? And you give the examples of south by Southwest or what podcast they listen to, what communities they're already a part of. Kind of. Once you find not just your ideal person and the watering holes, it's like, how do you reach them? And I think so many business owners hear the word marketing and they cringe. And you, I know in the new book you talk about tiny marketing actions. Can you just describe these two concepts and how they fit together? The watering hole and then the TMAs.

The arc of the books, which I don't know how it is with you, but with me, I don't always see it until I'm partway through it. So what I noticed when I was about Midway writing the Widest Net is, oh, wait a minute, there's an arc from book one. Helping people who are unhappy in corporate leave and start a business, like just getting in something stable that will give them financial stability and allow them to be on their own. And then it's usually not the final destination because often how we start our business is not what it evolves into. That led to the second book, body of Work, of really what do you want to create and what is uniquely yours? Whether creating a business or in maybe working for somebody else, once people know specifically what they want to create, be that a book or a podcast or a business, every single person's question is, where are my people? Like, where's my audience? How do I build community? How do I build awareness? And so the thread of watering holes for sure came from that experience of Guy Kawasaki sharing my blog post that was in 2006, believe it or not. And what I recognized at the time was that his blog, as an example in 2006 was a perfect watering hole, meaning a gathering place, in this case online with tons of people who shared values with me who had similar interests. So that when I was featured within his watering hole, I had huge visibility and it really just transformed my entire business. It was just one of those wonderful kind of random opportunities where I just hit the perfect spot. And that was something I wrote about for many years. Even I think pre body of work that ended up being the central premise within the Widest Net. So the idea, if we just look at the high level picture of thinking strategically about marketing, I contrast empire culture with ecosystem culture. So empire culture says draw everybody to you, you are the expert, you want to crush and dominate the competition. We actually use language around empires. And, and I always say, I don't know about you, but empires have been really good for a couple people at the top, usually white dudes, and not Very good for everybody else. So by contrast, in my model, you center your ideal client or customer in the center of an ecosystem where they're surrounded by other amazing people, service providers, companies that support them, amazing podcasts, associations, other great people who are helping them solve the same problem that you're helping them solve. You and I are similar in this, right? Our clients want to grow and scale. They need to streamline operations, and they need strategy to grow. So in that context, it's really your job to understand what are the watering holes in that ecosystem where, from a marketing perspective, you can show up, drop in, like I dropped into Guy Kawasaki's blog, and find amazing people who are already warm and open to the idea because they've been and introduced by somebody who's really trusted. So within that context, where tiny marketing actions comes in is once you get that strategic analysis about the best places for you to actually show up within the ecosystem that requires a little bit of evaluation, then the way that you build those relationships is actually by these tiny, small actions delivered in small increments on a daily or weekly basis that over time end up really creating a strong and thriving network.

I love it. Thank you. Given by a true facilitator, teacher, explainer who could just lay it all out so clearly. I just love this empire culture versus ecosystem because I find the empire language so off putting. Like, it's not that attractive or magnetic. I mean, maybe to a certain type of community member, but for the rest of us, it's like we don't want to be acquired or gotten. You know, I talk in free time about cold leads and all kinds of this language. One thing that I find kind of tricky sometimes about watering holes is that it can seem abstract. I know you and I share a lot of similar ones. I totally resonate with south by Southwest, Apple Peloton. I can sometimes think of big brands, and then I'm missing maybe the smaller ones or I don't know how to connect the dots. Okay. My ideal person loves listening to podcasts, and they love their peloton. You know, that's just one example. And so how do you help people, really? I don't know, get specific enough with the watering holes or with the strategies to then approach those people or be discoverable by those communities.

There are phases of the work. So the strategic work at first is part of what provides the lens and the discernment to get specific to indicate where it is that you would go. So, for example, in the earlier stages of what you want to do is get real clarity about what is that driving mission that really you're on beyond making money? Really, what is more the purpose on earth? What's your legacy? What's that footprint that you want to be contributing to? The example I use in the book is for Intuit company that makes software, accounting software and tax software. Their mission is power prosperity. So huge mission, right? That's involving many different components. If you really want to be powering prosperity, you can imagine people need to have access to banks and they need to improve credit scores and they need financial education and help with their money head trash, as our shared friend Charlie Gilkey would call it. And they might need software to do their work. So at first as a landing spot, you're really identifying that bigger mission that you are on in addition to other ecosystem partners. And then as you narrow the lens, there's a hugely important area to pass through, which is through values. Because as we know extremely well, and I'm laughing because I know we've had experience with this as well as your listeners, just because somebody has a mission, let's say, of helping grow a business, does not mean whatsoever that you might agree with how they choose to go about it. And so the lens of values, how is somebody showing up personally and professionally? What is the kind of language they use? What's their theory of change, which is a big nerdy thing that I'm totally geeking out on all the time, right? How do you actually think change needs to happen according to which systems and structures? And. And when you really put your ecosystem through that lens, that is something that can start to narrow down in a good way the places where you can show up. But then you just really get specific with. How I define clients and customers is based on a method by my friend Susan Byer, which is really defining them by a core problem or challenge that they are facing. Not just demographics, not that they're 35 and drive a Subaru and live in Seattle. Right. But that they have a specific challenge that they're trying to solve. And that is part of what gives you indication into where it is that you look. So that's the pre work that can be very informed by conversations that you have with clients where you have already an existing base of clients and you just look at those that you have the best connection with that you really notice that you do great work with. You would be asking them questions like what is your favorite podcast? And who are other amazing service providers that you work with that have really helped you to grow your business? In the case that that's the problem that you're solving and then that's the way that you can begin to get some of the discernment with the tiny marketing actions is the process often of testing and trying. Every tiny marketing action that you take is never usually going to lead to some hugely viral situation. Like I have with Guy Kawasaki for all the times where I just did. My tiny marketing action with Guy was just to send an email at 10 o'clock@ night. I'd never met him before. It was like, hey, I think you're amazing. I love your blog and I wrote this post and I think you might like it. Bam. Boom. End of story. Didn't ask him to post it. Didn't have any prior relationship that happened to lead to a completely viral transformative situation that led to my first book deal. That is one of probably thousands of other emails I've sent that landed on complete silence. So that's the way that you can narrow the focus, begin to identify things and you know, sometimes you can be informed by research that you have around your clients. I know you do a lot of research. Being a passionate fan now of your own podcast and the body of work that you have, you can begin to gather some specific information about the kind of tools that your folks might use and people who, in general, your ideal clients really resonate with.

We'll be right back just after this.

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I love that your note to Guy Kawasaki. You say that one of the TMAs can be love notes. Just send a message to someone you appreciate and that's it. No ask nothing. That counts as a tiny marketing action.

I think it's a critical step. I feel like it can get a little sketchy. I know if we're always using dating metaphors with client situations, so I'm Careful in how I tread in this. Thank God both you and I are happily married. We don't have to date anymore. But there really is. What I find in marketing is a lot of people forget that where you don't have any relationship with somebody at all. And it is really not natural or normal to stroll into a coffee shop, see somebody in line and immediately say, hi, I'm Pam, would you like to buy my online course? People are like, what? Who are you and what are you talking about? It's very off putting. Normally what you would do in that situation is smile. You might make a little joke, you might talk about what their favorite kind of coffee. And over time, as you begin to get to know each other is where you might express interest of going deeper into having a relationship about what it is that you're, you know, talking about or working on. So those same things that we know about the natural way to build friendships or romantic partnerships is no different because they're just human relationships. And that's probably the biggest place that I see people fall down initially and feel awkward on both sides with tiny marketing actions is in just coming on too hot and heavy. It feels very awkward.

You share the same email that I get with five follow ups. Hey Jenny, you must not want to hear from me or like, hey Jenny, just following up for the fifth time, I finally created a text expander, basically auto response, just, I'm not interested, please don't contact me again.

I've done the same thing and that is, it's weird, isn't it? Because the tone of it is actually like a very creepy, stalker esque kind of dating person, right? Because you're like, I have literally not even responded and you're starting to get angry with me and judge and like, you know, wonder what I'm doing. It's so wrong.

Or using weird sales techniques like, oh, Jenny, I'm going to remove the spot I've reserved for you. If I don't hear back, just let me know. Either way, you know, like really transparent. And the crazy thing is they're escalating. People are trying to get more and more creative. So many of them come in. I even tell friends I've had authors launch books and they say I'm kind of feeling down. I've pitched other podcasts and no one really gets back to me. And I've said, just so you know, I get at least five a day and I have pretty small shows, all things considered. I get probably five pitches a day. So don't feel bad, don't Take it personally, but you don't quite know what you're up against in terms of the level of coming over the transom. And I always tell if you are an author and you're listening or you're launching something, don't ask, can I be on your podcast? Just say, would you like to see an advanced copy or would you like to see an early version? Or would you like early access to check it out?

That's it.

That's the ask. So I'll just put that as a PSA into this episode.

That's right. And the beautiful nuance, I think to as individuals discover their own relationship with tiny marketing actions and also just the way that they show up in person. I did deep work, as you probably know, with Susan Cain, who wrote the great book Quiet. She has a beautiful new book called Bittersweet. But I work with her in a really big project launching the Quiet Revolution a number of years ago. And I am a raging extrovert. I know very well that you are a very beloved introvert.

I admire you so much. If only I had a tenth of your connecting abilities.

But each one, really and truly, the science says, and what we know in our hearts, and we really listen deeply, is that there is beauty in each of those different approaches that is rich and full and complete. I will say that. Right. That within the way that we're wired.

I gotta ask you about that.

Yeah.

Selfishly, my gremlin is. Is there really, though? Because sometimes I'll think to myself, I would be benefiting so much more in this industry if I loved connecting with people. Like, straight up. If you're an entrepreneur in this type of business, I often will kind of feel bad because I just go, this business, as you know, as you write about, is entirely about relationships and your network and how warm you keep your connections and the exchange of value and stuff. And I just feel like, as someone who craves endless amounts of quiet, I really do sometimes feel it's a disadvantage. Talk me out of it. Change my mind as the meme goes, if you'd be so kind.

Okay, here is what I will say. There is a difference between how you are wired as a person and what you choose to define as what your business needs and then how you choose to fulfill the need that your business has. So you as a founder, which is the case for many people you and I know, first of all, I'm always like the annoying person who's like, who is we? When you say we, who is we? Or when you say this business, whose business because actually it's kind of deep when you start to look at that. There can be in Susan's research, the extrovert ideal, which is tons of socialization that says if one is to be successful in business, you need to be this blah blah, extrovert, constantly shaking hands and moving around. And on the surface, if you're wired that way like I am, where you find joy at connecting with strangers, it can make that part of it easier on one side of at the surface level, just beginning to connect with people. It's very different strategically with how you look at what your business needs in terms of how many connections do you want to have. And I just really look very directly into the premise that you're talking about in free time of what size business and specific kind of focus do you really want and need to have? And in that case, I'll take something I know we both share a passion around is around licensing and certification where you talk a number of times about that's one lane of business that you have where you've licensed pivot materials to Google, to Chanel. I love the way you're so clear and open, saying I'm always open and looking for other companies because that can be a lucrative but also really affordable, effective way to get your work out into the world. If we look at the most strategic place for you to be putting your energy in developing your business to the scale that you want, which tell me if I'm wrong, but is not to have a giant hundred million dollar company with a gigantic team. If your business needs to have a strong analysis about the best way to be connecting with those companies, that would be ideal. You can completely go down your nerdy research, operationalize, figure out a to execute strategic communication with the right kinds of partners.

I still think it's a huge advantage when you love connecting with people and I love it just in such tinier doses. But you would be proud of me because I got over the hump of my fear and I mustered the courage this week to take three TMAs of emailing three software companies that I adore, Zapier, Notion and Kajabi, you know, to just call them out, plant the seed as you call it out into the universe to say do you want to sponsor an upcoming podcast series? And that took me so much like weeks to just muster the courage to send the initial email. But it counts. In honor of this interview, I did my TMAs 100% and I am not.

Going to refute right that it like it can make it easier. It's like people who might be super passionate about marketing metrics or who have the follow through. I call it the last 2%. I am the classic quick start in Colby. If anybody's ever taken Colby for your listeners or if you're familiar, it's like how you take action in your MO And I can start something, I swear to God, in just like four hours, I can create a whole program, launch it the next day and have it off and running. And then it's the last 2% of really tying everything up and making it all happen. That feels like something that is physically impossible for me. That's caused a great amount of creative stress. And so that's an example of, like, I think all of us, as we look at the overall picture of how we're wired, our strengths are how we're wired, that there are certain things for sure. Like, would it be easier if I could just focus and get a project 100% done from start to finish without angst? Self generated angst, yes. And that is just something that I've learned how to work with. The same way I think that you talk about for you. But good job. Good job on doing the TMAs.

I feel like writing a book is the ultimate. There's no escaping the final 2%. And then often the final 2 or 10% takes as long and with as much agita as the entire thing combined.

Well, it's totally true.

Yeah. I love as well in terms of TMAs and getting out there. And for our European friends, I apologize because I know that peanut butter and jelly. I once said that to a group at Chanel and they crinkled up their faces and they're like, ugh, how disgusting. What is that? And we had to come up with some other thing like chocolate and champagne. I don't know.

Right. Nutella on freshly baked bread, which is what I ate as an exchange student in Switzerland. Yes. Yeah, yeah.

Like, oh, tomato and burrata. Let's change it for in Italy. But you talk about PB&J partners, and I love this idea of people who offer complimentary services. And in particular, you highlight some of the unusual pairings like Peloton and Shonda Rhimes, year of yes. Book. Susan Cain, who you mentioned quiet combining with steel case furniture. And then even Martha Stewart and Snoop Dogg. And I think of, you know, clothing collections. So and so buy with the X. Whatever the other thing is. So I would love for you to tell us about PB&J partners and why those are so powerful for also bringing people into our ecosystem.

Yeah. So this is a specific slice of looking at the ecosystem. And there is an ecosystem wheel we'll have in the show. Notes. I have free, no email, trade required. A workbook that has all the exercises from the book that has a visual of the ecosystem map because it's one of those things that's so much easier just to see rather than to describe it.

And it's beautiful, just so that we get the mileage. Because I saw that actually today and I took a photo, of course, and I go, who was our designer for that? It came out great. You know, it's like those diagrams take a lot of effort to get those in the book.

It really does. Yes. So I had great support in really getting the graphics done. Wayward Kind was the firm that I used for all the materials for the book, which has been totally amazing. But the visual of it, when we think about having the ideal customer in the center, and There are actually 10 different segments within the ecosystem wheel, so one of them, which is a really natural place for Peanut butter and jelly partners or Nutella and Baguettes, is for other service providers. This is something to me. Literally every single day, my clients ask me, who should I go to as an IP attorney? Do you have a recommended cpa? I need a tax accountant to tell me how I should take deductions this year. Right. To not pay taxes. Do you know a great web designer? Do you have a great va? All of these are examples of other service providers who my ideal customer needs to work with in order to fully complete and execute their goal. Because this is a big conceptual thing that is part of contrasting empire versus ecosystem culture. I don't pretend for one second ever that I am the only person who can ever help my clients get all the way of where they need to go. It's not realistic. It's not possible. By definition, we need multiple people, multiple input, sometimes multiple coaches to really help us to get all the way through some of these big business transitions and implementation. So the place to start to look for these peanut butter and jelly partners from a super pragmatic perspective, if you're wanting to start somewhere in a small way, which I highly recommend is to be asking your ideal clients, are there other service providers who you love working with that you might feel comfortable making an introduction simply so that you can learn more about what they do and they can learn more about you in the spirit of not pressing in the first call, which should be 15 or 20 minutes, to simply say, I've heard great things about you, isn't Our client. Amazing. And can you tell me a little bit more about how you work? Because I would just love to learn more about you. That's the beginning to have those conversations where over time, when you experiment maybe with referring one person to them, see what the experience is, that over time, as you get to know each other, you really develop some pretty deep and profound relationships. That's how it is with me with an IP attorney, Sharon Turek, who I work with all the time at Legal and Creative. We've just really tuned in now to working with each other, where she'll send people my way if they're not quite ready to be looking at the legal stuff. And then as soon as I execute projects like licensing or certification where they need an IP attorney, I make that warm introduction to her. So that's a really good place to start.

And it's not always the obvious pairings either, because I love how you talk about being the weirdo in the room. That's almost like, look at what's obvious and then look at where you can be the weirdo in the room. Because there's probably less, I don't know, Competition isn't part of the ecosystem. Language. We wouldn't use that term. What do they call it? Co optition. But tell us as well about not being afraid to be the weirdo in the room.

Yeah. So the weirdo in the room is strategically, it is related to you being in a place where you know that there is an audience who would be an ideal fit for your services. But usually it's not a group that maybe knows you yet or is totally aware of where there's a fit. What I find a lot for people in a specific profession, and I'll just take coaching, being around coaches a lot over the last number of years is. It cracks me up sometimes where coaches will, like, gather at coaching conventions and go to coaching sites and being in coaching Facebook groups and all talk with each other about how hard it is to find clients. And I'm like, maybe if y', all, like, weren't in a coaching group. It's great to have that right as a small part of just getting peer support. But how about you put yourself in a software developer group if that could be part of an example of a group that you could connect with. It makes me think of a specific example of one year at south by Southwest where I knew so many people. I'd love to go places where everybody knew me. One year I was like, I am not leaving this place without making some significant connections for brands who I want to be partnering with. So I went to the Bloggers Lounge at South by Southwest, a great watering hole for connecting with peers and sponsors and software companies and I ended up feeling so awkward because they didn't know who I was. You have that whole like oh hi and they're talking to each other about software stuff, but by making those connections and being awkward. That was actually the intro to Citrix at the time, who ended up being a great client where I did a whole number of brand projects with them where I could share my IP with their audience. So the weirdo in the room is we look at the fit with those examples we talked about. I love the Peloton and Shonda Rhimes. I loved her book Year of Yes, but it was so neat to see a ride happening with some of the thoughts and ideas from the book. The thing about it is it can seem interesting and like oh wow, I didn't really see that coming. But it has to work. It's like Stacy London used to say in what not to Wear, one of my favorite shows, it doesn't have to be matchy matchy, but it has to go. Like there has to be a reason.

Why I love that it doesn't have to be matchy matchy, but it has to go. I often quote Tim Gunn who said look for clothing or pieces for your home that are soul stirring. So I'll throw that into our fashion. I love that you were borrowing from some other related adjacent space.

Exactly.

You mentioned TMAs and metrics and measurement earlier in the conversation and I think this is probably also, I would imagine where a lot of not entrepreneurs in general, but maybe ones like me and maybe like some of the hundreds that you've served over the years get a little bit stuck or tripped up for any variety of reasons. I get so lax about tracking metrics because it's just not core to what I do or why I do it is core to see what's working, but for some reason I've never obsessed over them and therefore sometimes my metrics analysis gets kind of anemic and I'm just curious if you can share with us what you Pamela Slim what metrics you actually care about in your business? What do you track? How do you have team members putting them together? How often? I would actually just love a slice into your metrics mind of the ones you care about and have decided to Track. After I've 25 plus years in business.

I will answer directly 100% about what I do track. I will say I am Extremely like you, I have cared very, very little about it for many years. And even to the fact it cracks me up with SEO, I literally didn't even really know what it was. And I've been a blogger since 2005, had viral posts, had good brand built by sharing content that resonated and ended up climbing up in the SEO rankings. But just fundamentally as an example of how I'm wired, where it just is not interesting to me, like any business owner, the decision that we make about tuning in and paying attention to it is going to be based on some factor that we determine to be extremely important for a specific reason. So recently I have been hiring more of a team. I have a wonderful team. Everybody is independent, everybody is part time. What do you say? You're delightfully tiny team. So I have one of those as well, which makes me so happy about.

How many part timers you have three.

Main part timers and then there's probably five total depending on projects that we do for doing specific things and a little bit more and actually that's wrong. Four core team members now and I.

Know you're really partner with a lot of fellow delightfully tiny teams, whether it's on website development or the design firm you mentioned. I'll put that in the show notes, but I've admired how you do that over the years too. You always bring in the experts, the pros to work on stuff.

It's true. In the context of coaching, I'll do it always in partnership with the client. So where they're working with a marketing agency or they're working with, you know, their own team, my main focus is always in helping to support and build the capacity of folks in their team. So I love working in that way. I do love also working in my own area now and with a team. And just a little side note, the firm is actually no longer. They've kind of took a shift. So the marketing team is no longer fully operating as a marketing agency, which was a great decision for the founder, but just FYI, so they're not doing ongoing work anymore, but in terms of the team and tracking metrics. And you will be happy, I hope. I'm looking for your approval. Very specifically, right now we are implementing Notion because I've also become a fanatic for Notion by seeing it from a number of people, hearing you talk about it, hearing a number of past clients, and all of a sudden what has made metrics much more clear. So everything from just very specifically understanding at any snapshot in time, what is my capacity how many clients do I have? How many sessions do I have available? Seems like something very basic that one would have a as a 15 year coach, but 26 years in business as a coach consultant in the past it wasn't really a big deal. I didn't necessarily have to have everything all in the same place. I have my sessions, people show up in the calendar. It's all pret straightforward. But as we've now been working with a team and specifically looking at activating new areas to work on, that's where we're looking much more specifically at the revenue we have coming in at the type of revenue at the capacity we have for team members. Like my own time, I'm looking to make a pretty radical shift in the next year to really dial down the one on one work that I'm doing and to really amp on one hand more of a scaled license program for organizations based on my own body of work and the widest net more like a program for people navigating careers in the new world of work. And the other piece is really in codifying and scaling our approach to licensing and certification. So for me it's important because I do have more people who I'm financially responsible for. I want to be doing good strategic work and I have two teenagers, one of whom is in his last year in high school, is going into college and two things. One is just paying for college, which is a thing. The other is we've all become really passionate about travel and I'm like I want to be doing more trips before they're totally off within their own lives. And so I really need to be generating more money and paying attention to how I'm spending my time and energy. So the team doesn't specifically look at things like the marketing metrics. I was working with an agency where we did a of deep analysis about type of content and followers and optimizing SEO. So we're implementing some of that. I find naturally I'm pretty good at implementing tiny marketing actions as long as I know the strategic picture. But probably the biggest things for us right now are really capacity for how we're spending our time and then looking at the profitability of different revenue streams and I just really want to double down. I'm like I love my work with one on one clients. It's so transformational and exciting and I feel like there's a bigger part that I can really play at this point in my life and career.

We'll be right back just after this.

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Well, you definitely get all the confetti and all the celebrations for moving to Notion because I know there's a learning curve and I don't even get behaved by them or anything for saying this. I'm just so in love with it and what it can do that yes, you hereby have my full celebration with you that you're moving the team over to it.

Notion really should actually sponsor this particular episode because if you're not going to say it, I'll say it directly. Notion, I'm looking at you. You have your biggest fan and advocate.

We love you. Yeah, call me. I feel like, why do they need to sponsor it? Because I'm always just obsessing over them anyway.

Oh goodness. For free. But that's okay. That's because I love them and I only want to work with people I can rave about. So it sounds like you do your TMAs pretty naturally and I know that's one of your big strengths. People ask me all the time if I have a CRM and that's another kind of like itchy thing that I started creating something in Notion that I call Kit, like high school yearbook style. Keep in touch. That just doesn't rub me the wrong way. But do you track any of your channels for TMAs and then do you have a CRM? Are you looking? Or do you care what types of TMAs, what kind of ROI and then which ones to double down on? Or do you just kind of take an intuitive sense of what's working and what you might want to do more of?

What is now is probably going to be a little bit different from what is in the Future. So I've had a legacy relationship with infusionsoft now keep for a long time is where I do my email marketing. I have a lot of automations already built into that. And so that's been a place where I really. It's been a shopping cart and email really essentially what I use for my email marketing. And it's not really the best fit I have found in the past for really just keeping track of different contacts. We implemented Dubsado, which is what we use for incoming client leads. That has been really wonderful to just automate the process from having a connection call with somebody putting forth an offering for a proposal where then they can sign up, pay automatically, get generated a contract where they sign it digitally. And that part has been really wonderful to get all the information they need to move forward. So that's more just a workflow automation. And part of what I say is what we have now made look a little bit different. I'm very careful about when to do big systems implementations because I've just seen it so much on my client side. It takes a huge amount of team resource and I don't want to be switching everything at the same time. But part of what I see strategically is I think there is a lot of stuff that I really would love to implement more in notion. And again, hearing you talk about it a lot, especially with zaps that you do between systems, I think we can probably streamline a bit the way that we've done things. And the other thing is I always tell my clients I will never ask them to do anything I'm not willing to do myself. And so it's really important when I'm working with clients who do like to have more structure and tracking, that there's a good working method. And I think part of what we want to design, and that could even be a, you know, a template we could choose to monetize in the future, is a really good way, maybe a notion of tracking more the ecosystem connections. Because while I don't think it's important to track every tiny little thing you do, I do very strongly believe that we want to be clear about what is the general area in which you're doing this outreach, what are strategic decisions you're making? Because a hugely important part of the process is to be extremely dedicated just to the exercise and the habit of taking a tiny marketing action and then also emotionally spiritually detaching from the outcome. Almost every single person I work with, including myself, at times gets frustrated too early and probably plants. I don't know, 400% fewer seeds than necessary. That was a totally random non. I love it academic number. But like, you need to do a shit ton more. If I could swear for a moment, you need to do so many more different types of seed planting than you think. And it's not about just constantly doing things for hours and hours. It just means that you need to commit to something over time in order to see it come to fruition. And you need to be consistent in the area in which you're doing the focus. Right. If you send out to your target software companies that you want to work with, maybe it's going to take a year for them to really begin to develop a relationship with you. But if you try it for a quarter and then you're like, forget it, they hate me. They're never going to follow up. That I think is a mistake.

It's so true. And I find myself, oh my gosh, all the time just saying, why isn't it happening yet? Whatever it is, like judging it too soon, judging myself too soon. So I think things might also sometimes take 400% longer than we think. Although I never like to plant that assumption because there can be a nonlinear breakthrough, as you've heard me talk about. But also if they're taking 400% times longer than you think, it's okay. That's normal too.

Exactly. And that's the part what gives me great confidence in it is really seeing it in action. So a couple of the case studies I used in the book. One is Carly Cunningham, who very graciously allowed me to tell her story right from the beginning of the book. She's a brand strategist in Vancouver, Canada, and she was at a point where her business had just really slowed down. She's been always great at what she did. Her clients loved her, but she just not done enough seating. And she was the person that really inspired my tiny marketing action method because I knew I needed to get something. She was at that emotional state where we've all been there where you just feel like stuck and frustrated and scared and all that whole combination of things. And so I needed something just to help her take these small steps every day. And because she's delightfully competitive, being a former competitive athlete, she really got excited as we started to say no to take your tiny marketing action. She would give herself a gold star for every one she took. And then she's totally tracks tons of data. She's actually done flowcharts and analysis looking over the years at based on the amount of TMAs that she did. Like what was the impact in her business. I love that. I love always having clients who do that. But that's made a really big difference of seeing how over time it makes a difference. The other person is Heather Krause that I talk about in the chapter around seating, who is a gigantic self professed introvert as you are. And she's hilarious and told me right in the beginning of our work together where she started a brand new initiative around reducing bias and data science for her initiative called We All Count. And she was like, if you want to know how much like I hate building community, if I go to a Starbucks and they begin to know my name and recognize me, I will drive 10km to another one because like I don't want to do this. And she was so committed to her initiative and to building strategically that she completely dialed into her TMAS with strategic partners in the ecosystem and it has been astounding to see what it is that she's built. So that's the part that gives me confidence of not just talking about it conceptually, but really seeing it work with people who are not naturally wired to take TMAs like I am.

And last question before I ask you the final closing question. Do you, Pam, set any kind of reminders for following up with your vast widest network? Like you're connected to so many people, you've coached so many hundreds of people, you're friends with so many people people. Are you setting reminders of like, oh, Jenny is getting married in three months and you set some kind of reminder in any one of your systems whether your phone or your now it's gonna might be notion but like are you systematizing this or are you just able to kind of flow with it and when someone crosses your mind, you ping them 100%.

No, because that to me would feel so stressful. Like I've always thought I should send more thank you cards and I never do. And I finally was like, yeah, if I feel like doing it randomly, I will do it. But that would stress me out to no end. That is how I personally use social media and use my email newsletter. So that's the way when I think about staying connected with most people. I've had my newsletter since 2004 and that's the place in which I'm really sharing updates, in which I invite people to hit reply and you know, respond back to me. And in social media that's also a strategic use that I have. I know you're not really in social media, which is A great decision. I love that you model that. Not everybody is, but that's a way for me where I can more pay attention to the stream of what's going on. And there are a few people in my life who are super important and that I do want to make sure that I keep a pulse with. But it's such a small circle that I don't really have to remind myself. It's more just something that happens because, you know, they're the closest circle within my life. And then there's people like you where, like, we haven't talked to each other in years. And I was like, what was I thinking? Like, I love Jenny. I should talk to her more. So I'm glad that we've reconnected through our podcast and our books.

Vice versa. Yeah. My friend Sarah pointed out, she's like, your love language is you put people in your books or you have them on your podcast. And it's true. It's really true. The only reason I have friends is that I have two podcasts. That's like such a source of friendship and staying connected. And I think what I love about it is that we are catching up right now. And we did for your show, too. The widest net. And yay, everyone else gets to listen and hear us bad things around together and just work things out. So I'm really grateful that you're here, as you know, because you listen, which I'm also so thankful for. The final question is, if you could give fellow business owners permission to do something differently or drop something altogether, what would it be? And you work with so many people, so I'd love to know what permission slip you'd love to write us.

Yes, I thought about this, knowing this was a question, and probably the biggest thing I talk about with my clients and that I think about after a call is my greatest desire is for them to drop the socialization that tells them that they should be in a different place than they are, or they should be doing more, feeling guilty for what they haven't done in the past. The shame that builds up around making a plan and committing to do it, and then life intervenes and not doing it and carrying that forward is just absolutely unhelpful emotional baggage. And a lot of it is based on socialization that is coming from socialization that sometimes is directly coming from a harmful perspective if it's created by people who are not close to your lived experience, who maybe, for example, if you're taking feedback and input from a raging extrovert about how it is you should be marketing your business and you're constantly feeling bad for not acting like that when that is not who you are and how you're wired. Like that's actually violence to yourself to be continually harboring regret about it. So what is interesting because a resistance point for this, when you begin to drop that is just. Am I just going to become this hippie flaky person who just doesn't care and never gets anything done? No. If it's important for you to get things done, to create things and make meaning in the world and purpose in your life, it will help you more. If on a daily basis you actively choose. It's helpful to just take a quiet moment, take a deep breath in and out and just release and drop anything that you didn't do and look forward with optimism into the day based on where you're at, how you feel and what's available and say, how can I be the most strategic, how can I be the most joyful about what I'm doing that ultimately is going to lead, I think, to more fulfillment and more creation than harboring all that crappy shame and fear and guilt.

I love that. So beautifully said. Thank you. Pam. This is so fun to jam with you. I just cherish you and our friendship so much. Where would you like to send people to learn more and keep in touch?

I feel the same about you. I'm such a fan of your work. I just want to say that it's been so fun to re engage and I'm just massively passionate about it. So thank you for writing Free Time. I'm very passionate about it right now. I'm like you are with notion right now.

It wouldn't exist without you. It's like you're the one that gave me the courage to leave corporate life. It's you. It's you and Charlie, you know, but you. So thank you. It exists because of you.

My pleasure. That's the beautiful part right of I think, the impact of the work that we do. I appreciate that so much. People can find me@pamelaslim.com and the resources and information around the book that includes the workbook that I mentioned is@pamelasim.com the widestnet no space.

Amazing. I'll put all that in the show notes. Thank you so much, Pam. And big thanks to everybody who's here listening.

Thanks for having me.

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