119: In Systems We Trust with Marquis Murray

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Did I equip my team with everything that they need to be successful? Is our onboarding laid out in that way? Do they understand what's required of them? Is there opportunity for ongoing training and development? Are we having one on ones where we can give them feedback and they can ask questions about the things that are concerning them or that they may be missing in the process? And then is there any kind of quality control happening within your business as well? Maybe you're growing and there's one or two people and, and you can't. You don't have the time to do that or the resources to do that. But what are your expectations for delivery and is anyone checking the work right? Like what are the opportunities to see some of these things and red flags prior to the work being delivered?

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Hello. Hello my friends. I'm here with Marky Murray. He is the CEO and founder of Ditto, a systems and process consultancy for organizations who need help creating clarity around the work inside their companies. He's on a mission to eliminate team burnout so people can focus more on the work they do without the stress of not knowing where or how the work is happening. I love the name of Markey's podcast in Systems We Trust. You can imagine why where he's having conversations and doing some solo episodes about systems, process and my favorite subject, operational efficiency. Markie, welcome to the show.

Thank you so much, Jenny. Good to be here. Happy to have this chat and looking forward to digging in.

I heard you say on another podcast that you are process obsessed and you always have been. When March 2020 hit, you were doing a lot of soul searching and it's interesting seeing that you've doubled down on process as the new business that's powering Ditto because it's kind of this meta layer of any business is going to be the process and operational efficiency within it. And so many businesses leave that as an afterthought. And for Me, too, when March 2020 hit, I kind of gave myself permission to go all in and geek out on process and operational efficiency in the name of freeing more time. How did you come to that conclusion that this thing that you've always loved all along, you actually wanted to shift and make this the entire focus of the new business?

Well, I feel like with a lot of people, we were forced into making these decisions. But like you alluded to, I was doing some soul searching. I had been chatt with a mentor and I'd had this thought in my head for so long as to like, this is what I want to do. Like, even in my previous business, which was a digital marketing agency, one of the things that I started offering was what I called systems and processes. Helping creative entrepreneurs create order in the chaos, helping these digital marketing agency owners and founders gain process around how they work. And so that's really something, like I said, that was always at my core. And I think it was at that moment, it was like I had no reason to not try it. You know, like, for so long I was scared or because, you know, I'm also a perfectionist. I was perfecting this thing that I knew was called Ditto. I didn't have a website. All I had was a logo. And I was trying to perfect the offerings and perfect the language and perfect the branding. And I didn't need to spend, you know, a ton of time on it because I was comfortable. I had this marketing agency that was doing well, but then March 2020 happened, and it's like, oh, no, where did all my clients go? The world just came to a halt. And it's like, now I have to do this. And it was actually my mentor. When March happened and lockdown started happening, he came to me and said, hey, we're also a marketing agency. We do website development and things like that. We have some customers who are now remote for the first time and trying to figure out how to use Zoom and trying to figure out how to use Slack and set up all these tools. And there are brick and mortar locations that now need to operate remotely should come together and give them something where we can build them a website so that they can take online orders. And they're also going to need to set up zoom and stripe payments and all their various tools and create some kind of order. And I was on a call with them And I remember just saying, guys, if we're doing this together and we're launching this thing, does that mean I'm launching Ditto? And they're like, yeah, I think you have to. And so it was really just that push and that need that just presented itself. And eight hours later, I had built the first version of the Ditto website and told all my former customers that this is what I was doing now. And the rest is really history. But if I have to think about it, it was fear, right? Or it was fear and that need for perfection. Not wanting to try something different and then not needing to try something different or wanting to wait until it was absolutely the best version it could be, rather than just saying, hey, this is it, do you want it or not kind of thing. So, yeah, I think there's a couple different factors, but hope that helps to add some context.

And didn't that same mentor, I think I heard you talking in the podcast with Jason. Didn't he ask you the question, why would someone fly you across the world to do business with them? Was it your mentor who posed that or did you come up with that question because it's so juicy?

That was my mentor. He really needs a lot more credit. And I saw him a few weeks ago and it had been a couple years, and it was really him that posed that question to me. And at the time, I didn't have an answ when I was running the marketing agency. I looked at myself as a dime a dozen shop, doing social media and paid ads. I didn't have an answer. And so that was really the need for doing this soul searching and finding out, why am I here and what purpose am I serving in this landscape? And answering that question, why would someone fly me across the world to do business with me?

It's such a good question because it really does shift out of being a commodity, being one of many into there's so many different names for it. I know you've read Gay Hendricks book, the Big Leap Zone of Genius. Strategic coach calls it unique ability. My friend Srini calls it unmistakable. And it's true. It's like if you're in a field and in a role where someone's not going to fly you marquee across the world to come do business with them, then maybe it's not the end all, be all role. And I just love that. Like, that question is so interesting.

Yeah, it absolutely is. And I mean, one of the first times that I heard that question from him, we were in this old pub in the town where I'm from. And it was him, his co founder and one of their branding guys. We were doing some like, what they call hive mind type, like brainstorming and branding work so I could uncover what was like right below the surface. And we sat in that pub in the back room for the whole day. And half of the day I just sat there struggling to answer these questions. And I felt like, man, I'm wasting everyone's time because I don't know what to say. I don't have answers to this. And it was really that propelled me into spending this time to do the deep work, into figuring this out. And what we came up with was the first version of the mission. I mean, you said it off the top, Jenny. It's to eliminate team burnout and to empower teams to do the work they were hired to do without the issue of not knowing where or how that work is happening. The first version of that was to help creative entrepreneurs live the life of freedom they started their businesses to achieve as a founder, as a creative, having that mess and that chaos. You start out on this venture and you think it's going to be all puppy dogs and rainbows and you're going to work whatever hours you want to and you're going to take vacations and spend time with your family and work with the clients you want to. And then you get into this place where you're working, this job that you created for yourself that you hate, that has terrible hours, no health insurance and no benefits, really. And so it was really helping our clients and those creative entrepreneurs figure out how to run their businesses, how to be more operationally efficient, how to create more systematized approaches to how they work and how to work more collaboratively with their teams so that we can eliminate burnout and eliminate frustration and confusion and all these things that plague businesses today so that they can all work better. And so it was a lot of work. There's still, like things that are coming out even today. Every time I step in the shower, there's a new thought that pops in my head that adds clarity to what we're doing here. But if I didn't have that push, if I didn't have those uncomfortable conversations, I can guarantee I would not be here today doing what I'm doing.

Before we started recording, you said you have 30 people at Ditto now and probably and counting by the time this even goes live. I'm curious if those are all full time. To me, that's already a huge company. I know in the realm of Small business, technically, at least in the U.S. i know you're in Canada, but the government here would define it as under 500 people. But you've already built up quite a big company in my mind, like going from a solo plus preneur, you know, solopreneur, surrounded by contractors. I'm wondering, how do you know your sweet spot of how big you want to grow? Is it as big as the mission can take you, or do you sometimes reach a saturation point where it's too much management than you even want in your business? Considering the lifestyle elements of it, I.

Will say there's about a third of us that are full time and then about half that are half time, and then the other what's left there. 20% are like occasional on call, more specialists that we bring in. So it's definitely a varied team of skills and commitments to the company. But nonetheless, it feels like this team has just come out of nowhere. The culture that we're building and the relationships we're building, how we work together, it's just incredible. And I'm looking forward to more and more growth. But to answer that question, it's like I had a conversation with one of our project managers several months ago now where because of the work that we do, there was really an uptick in people needing our services. I'm not going to sugarcoat it. It's a good problem to have, right? We were growing really quickly and bringing on more work, and the project manager said, like, are we going to slow down sales? Are we going to take a break for a little bit because we're at capacity? And for me, the answer is, well, if we have too many sales, we just bring on more people. We just bring on more people to fill those roles. But that's not always the answer because with more people comes more overhead, more relationships you have to manage. Overhead can be, obviously, payroll being the biggest one, but then there's software licenses and time and your operating expenses increasing because you have more people attending your internal meetings and doing onboarding and doing continuous training and development. And so there is definitely a sweet spot. I discussed on a podcast recently that we're looking to transition a lot of our halftime people into full time right now. And there is a need for that. But you have to be careful as to not grow too quickly. Because what I will sometimes discuss is the difference between growing a business and scaling a business. Scaling means that you're increasing both your input and your output at the same rate, whereas growing, you can grow sideways and bring on more People, but you're not growing up, you're not building anything. And so that's where you can really get into trouble. Whereas if your operating expenses are increasing, but you're not increasing your revenues, and you're not updating your systems and thinking of ways to be more efficient, then you're growing, your team is inevitably on a path to burnout, and that's where we see businesses fail. Whereas if you're scaling, you're bringing on the right people at the right time, you're limiting your expenses, you're thinking, how can we make things simpler, easier? How can we streamline our processes? How can we have some rollover or some people doing dual roles for a short time? And so you really have to look at those things and ask those questions, like, is it the right time to make this hire? You know, what role are they going to fill? What are their responsibilities? Is that really defined? Is it written down? Is it communicated to that person? Or am I just saying, hey, I need you to do this thing and figure out the rest? Because that's where we get into a space where it's really dangerous and we can see businesses go the other way and not scale at all.

And what about your personal enjoyment and engagement? Because sometimes I find, for me, as a process person, I like getting into the nitty gritty. I don't necessarily like leading and managing as much as I thought that I would or should. What's your sweet spot? And then how do you still do the things that you like as you grow and scale?

Yeah, like you, I love getting into the nitty gritty. I probably do too much of it. Even now, we use Asana as our project management tool. And there are times now where I see conversations happening around projects, internal projects mostly, that other people are working on, and I want to jump in and give an answer or say, I'll do that, because I know that I can do it really quick. Or if I do it, I don't have to pay someone else to do it. They can take their time and go apply it elsewhere. So it's really tempting to want to do that. But one thing that I've had to learn is to not do that. Say, no. Allow the people that you've hired to perform at their best to work within their zone of genius. If I'm constantly jumping in and saying, yeah, I'll do the work that pulls me from the things that I really need to do. So it is tough because I love the operations of my business. I love it. I love when I can look at something and be like, how can we make this better? I spend the time, I figure out the problem, then I communicate it to the team. But that's not always what the team needs from me. And so it's definitely a daily battle to think, you know, is this what I need to be spending my time on right now, or can I be more effective in other areas? Because I do get joy out of it by that. I also get joy in having new sales conversations and meeting new people and putting together a proposal and then presenting it. I also get joy in doing podcasts and, you know, doing marketing videos that are distributed to people around the world and then they find me, you know, or ditto through those means as well. So it's definitely a choice you gotta make. Like, am I gonna spend my time on this when I don't really need to, even though I really want to, or can I be more effective elsewhere?

Yeah. You mentioned earlier this passion for creative entrepreneurs. It seems to me like a lot of burnout from creatives happens when they're the bottleneck in their business. Certainly if they're the only team member without even a part time person, everything hinges on them. But let's say they have built out a delightfully tiny team, even if it's part timers. What are the most common ways that you see business owners bottlenecking themselves? I know there's software quick wins, but in terms of it's, I feel like sometimes it's more conceptual, like they'll hit a plateau. They have the basic tools in place, project task management, calendar, scheduling. What I'm curious what you see as a certain stage of bottlenecking and where is the breakthrough to be had for people creatives at that state?

What I see a lot and a lot of the customers we work with is the founder or the CEO that has transitioned in the last five to 10 years from freelancer to business owner. And they haven't hung up that freelancer hat. So as a freelancer, they were the subject matter expert, they were the accountant, they were the salesperson, they were the hr, they were the it. They were doing absolutely. They were the marketer, they were doing absolutely everything. And whether it's by bringing on full time permanent employees or working with other contractors as they hopefully scale the business, they feel like they started this thing. It's their baby, they know how to take care of it best. They know what's best for that baby. They know when it needs to sleep, when it needs to eat, they know when it makes a certain sound that it's cranky and needs to be changed. And they know when the baby's hot. So they know all the ins and outs of this business, and they feel like they can do it better, they can do it faster, they can do it more efficiently. And so that's the big problem that we're trying to solve, is because they're trying to break out of this phase where they're no longer the sole person on the team. They either have an assistant or they have three, four, five people, and they're looking to get to that next level. They understand that they need process, they understand that they need systems. They understand that they need to document what they do. But they're so in the weeds that they don't feel that they have the time to put the brakes on, step away, allow their other team members to contribute so that they can create those systems. And so they stay stuck in the same spot where they can't afford to take the time away. And if they take the time away to do it, then it's wasted time and they're not applying themselves or they can't keep a pulse on what is happening in the business. And so it's definitely a dangerous spot to be in because you have these people on your team that want to contribute, that want to help. And if you don't create the time in your calendar to stop, write it down, document, and then delegate these tasks that only you feel you can do, you'll never realize that growth in your business. So that's probably the biggest thing that we see and that we're trying to solve is to break the connection between what used to be the norm and what the norm needs to look like now in order for them to get to that next stage. It's easier said than done because it's just sometimes hard to let go of your baby.

We'll be right back just after this.

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There's two things I see in this fork in the road and that I've experienced for myself. The first one I don't experience because I love this stuff. But I'll hear business owners who say, I just don't think that way, or I don't love that stuff. This is the stuff that makes them cringe. Maybe they like doing the work, but not thinking about the work the way you and I would enjoy doing that in our free time. And so I'm curious, is it just that simple that, oh, you just need to stop, document, get it down, or is there some skill that they develop? Is it the skill of systems thinking? And to that point, part two of this @ the fork in the road is there have been times I've been in business 11 years now, as of yesterday, where I will delegate and I will let go and I won't be micromanaging, but then that person will leave the role and I come in and I find so many things that could have been automated or improved. And if I get in there for a week, I am in fact vastly improving things from a process and automation perspective that the person just their mind didn't work like that. So maybe I haven't hired process geeks. And that's probably true because I love it. So then I just hoard that stuff for myself. But it's a hard skill to teach sometimes. I always ask people, of course, my team knows document everything. Everything gets documented. I know one of your podcast titles was the Task is not Complete Unless It's Documented. But that doesn't mean that their ninja skill is Systems Automation Efficiency, Improving Things, Eliminating Steps in the Process. Even if I ask, it doesn't mean that they have the ability to see with those X ray goggles what could be done. And so sometimes I get frustrated when I go dive back down into the details and I go, ugh, this was just so inefficient for years because nobody caught it until I did. And that will be.

Frustrating. That is a difficult one. I mean, if I have to think about it, we've already talked about documenting your processes, but if you're not that person that thinks that way, it's going to be difficult for you. When I had my marketing agency, I was doing onboarding and I was growing the company, right? I was growing it. We were going sideways and clients were coming in, but my expenses weren't decreasing. And so Growing this business, we had to bring on new people. And what I found is that when it came to onboarding and training, I was having a lot of the same conversations over and over and over again. And maybe this was easier for me because I've always been a systems person, but I thought, I'm just going to record some videos. Like, I just got frustrated. I got tired of saying the same things over again. I'm like, I told you this already. Like, what's the problem? I discovered loom.loom.com and, you know, that was one of the ways that I was able to document things. And so for people that aren't process people, it can be that simple. It's a free tool. You screen record. The free version is up to five minutes. And you screen record what's going on. You pass it off to another person. The next step is organizing all those series of videos into a place that's, like, easy to access and it's searchable for your team. So if you're not a process person, keep it really simple. You don't have to write down and document all of these lengthy standard operating procedures, but you start there. But to better answer your question, I mean, you have to think of it through this lens. When you're bringing these people onto your team, there has to be certain expectations of what the job looks like. And so this took me a long time to figure out, even in ditto, because when you need someone, you need to fill a spot and you got a new client, you kind of got to move quickly. But what does your hiring process look like? What conversations are you having? Are you going through any use cases and scenarios and, you know, having conversations about what it will really look like in your business and asking questions as to how they would handle it, or giving them a demo or a use case to think through and depending on their answer, get a better understanding for who they are, how they think. And you have to also understand, I think, their learning style. One of the things with anyone that we onboard is we ask them to do a personality test and so we can get to see, like, who are they? How do they think? What does their makeup look like? How do they resolve problems? How do they work with others? And we can see it there. We get these results and we can take a look at.

Those. What's your chosen test, by the.

Way? It's a 16 personalities.

Test. Okay. Because I'm sure you put a lot of thought into which one. There are so many. I'll put that in a.

Show. Absolutely. Yeah. 16 personalities. Then I'm also interested to know what enneagram number they are just so we can better have conversations and understand how I work with people. But we have our hiring process and then there's the onboarding process. Like how are you bringing them up to speed? How are you setting those expectations when they sign their agreement? Even before the onboarding, Is there a job description that lists out what they do and what their responsibilities are? I think you need to think before they actually come into the role. Like, have you done everything you can do as a leader? Because it really does all come down to us. You know, if something goes wrong, it falls back on us. If something goes well, we praise our team. But when it goes sideways, the leaders have to take responsibility. And so did I equip my team with everything that they need to be successful? Is our onboarding laid out in that way? Do they understand what's required of them? Is there opportunity for ongoing training and development? Are we having one on ones where we can give them feedback and they can ask questions about the things that are concerning them or that they may be missing in the process? And then is there any kind of quality control happening within your business as well? Maybe you're growing and there's one or two people and you can't. You don't have the time to do that or the resources to do that. But what are your expectations for delivery? And is anyone checking the work? Right. Like what are the opportunities to see some of these things and red flags prior to the work being delivered? So I think it starts way before day one, but I also think it's ongoing. There's a training and development, there's one on ones space for feedback, documenting your processes and then when you can, implementing some kind of quality control systems into the business as.

Well. Super helpful. Thank you for outlining all these different components and interlocking elements. On the subject of training and onboarding, have you found ways to teach the skill of. Of, let's say within systems thinking, automation? Because I think automation is almost a coding mindset. If this, then that. Have you found ways that you teach your team members or even your clients? Because I know you're trying to teach your clients how to fish so they can live without you at some point. How do you teach this skill? Because I think thinking through automation, recognizing that things can be automated and then implementing that, it's a skill and it can be learned. But I'm curious if you've found a way to teach.

It. I think it's a little bit different for us, because that's what we do. We're always looking for ways to automate and make things simpler and more streamlined. And so for my team in the hiring process, yeah, I'm looking for that internally, once we're actually working together and it's like day to day stuff, I would say for us, we're always looking for opportunities to improve and to make things better. So when it comes to automation, I can't say that I have any tips or tricks or anything that I've found, but if I can answer the question a little bit differently, it definitely comes down to information management and information transfer before we even get to automation. And maybe something will come out of this for you. But information transfer, one of the things that I always like to say is, am I the only person who knows this information? And when others benefit from having this information, I think the problem is that we store and hoard a lot of this institutional knowledge and we don't share with other people. So I think that might be the secret right there. We're sharing information, everyone on our team, like I said, we hire intelligent, well educated people and we're always encouraging them to think differently. It's like, how can this be better? Years ago, Staples put out that button and it says, that was easy. It's like, how can we make this easier? There's gotta be a way. And so I think if you're thinking that way, it's always how can we make it easier? And before we automate anything for our customers, we draw it out in a visual workflow map so we can see it on paper or on a screen. We test it manually to make sure that it can work. And we're sharing ideas, sharing information, piggybacking off of each other. And then we go to the tool to see if the tool can automate it. So whether it's if this, then that, or Zapier or make formerly Integromat, automation is the last step. We talk about how we can share the information, we brainstorm, we test it in a sandbox environment, we visually map it out and then we see if the automated tool can help us to automate it. So I don't think automation is the answer. It is the nice, like end result. And I think there's a lot of work that you need to go through prior to that so you can.

Automate. And I love how you pulled out information management and information transfer and that those are really the big buckets and that as you're saying, automation is at the end of a chain. Of events, but it's certainly not the first. And I love this question. How can we make this easier? You mentioned Integromat. Now make. I have everything in Zaps. Everything I do is in Zapier. And I will say I get a lot of ideas about what to automate and how to make things easier just from reading these companies blogs. Like I find being subscribed to their newsletter really helpful. Or people don't talk too much about Zaps and automation on podcasts. If there was one that was specifically about that I would be subscribed. Or please tell me if you know of one. But where does MAKE come in? Because I keep hearing about Integromat and I just heard about another new one the other day for managing communities. There's so many. But does make actually do different things than zapier or are they pretty similar? Burb was the other new one I heard.

About. Burb. Okay, I haven't heard that one.

Yet. Yeah, Burb co. I'll put it in the show.

Notes I'm a strong believer that it doesn't matter what tool you're using, just as long as we all agree that we're going to use it the same way, right? Like whether it's zapier or make. For us, we made the transition to MAKE because at the time it definitely had more like out of the box capabilities compared to ZAPS. ZAPS1 it's a very linear way of constructing automations and so it's connecting the tool and it's searching through their list of predefined automations that all depend on whatever API that tool has. But when we looked at make, they had more to offer as far as integrations, so they connected with more tools through the API. That was one big thing. We had the opportunity to create branches that triggered different actions simultaneously. And then behind the scenes, not getting into too much detail because I'm not a developer, I have developers on my team, but there's the ability to make even more API calls and we do a lot with webhooks and things like that, so it's just easier to number one, lay it out in make. If you're doing any kind of logic or branching out, it's easier to visualize that as well. They have more integrations and then when it comes to the custom side of things, you can get more out of the tool because now you can tap into more powerful APIs and you can use different webhooks in different ways. And so for us it was a really big difference and and both tools have come a long way, but I think that's what it comes down to. And then the support you can receive, that's also great as well. There are communities for both tools, but we found there was more support on the Integromat side. There were more specialists on the Integromat side, and it just allowed us to plug into so much more. And we do a lot of custom development at Ditto as well, and it allowed for more of that. So we just felt it was a. Just a better tool for us. It was more stable, they had more advancements, and again, the support is unmatched. And so those are some of the reasons why we chose it at that time. But again, it doesn't really matter what you use. Just you all have to agree, this is how we're going to use it and this is what's going to work for.

Us. And can you enlighten us? What is a.

Webhook? I have to pull on one of my developer friends for this, but basically it is a line of code that is inserted into the software. And so if you wanted two pieces of software to talk to each other, one of them is going to send out a call to the other. For example, you have someone sign up on a form, right? But that form is on a system that is not connected natively to a tool that you're using. And so it would basically say, we want you to listen for when that person submits that form. Right. And when that happens online, anywhere on the Internet, I want you to listen for it and then provide this action on the other end. And so it allows you to automate things and make connections where there isn't already a native connection or a code that's made through one of the other platforms as well. So again, I'd have to bring in one of my developer friends to talk more about it, but that's basically.

It. Yeah. So then our setting up Zaps or make. I don't know if they're called makes in plural, but are those.

Webhooks?

Scenarios? Oh, they're called scenarios. Okay, good, good. See, we're learning some vocab today. So then is every time you set up one of these, like, getting apps to talk to each other, is that a webhook or is webhook one type of doing.

This? A webhook is one type of doing this. Like, for example, we use HubSpot and PandaDoc. And so one of the things we wanted to do was we wanted it so that whenever someone signed an NDA or a proposal in PandaDoc that it triggered the deal to be moved to the next stage in our HubSpot pipeline. There's no way, like HubSpot and PandaDoc haven't said, hey, we should figure out how to make this easier for our users and connect it natively. So then we have to rely on the webhooks that Panadoc provides to say, hey HubSpot, when this happens in Panadoc, we want you to listen for it and then we want you to perform this action. So we're really like tapping into the API to create our own, what would be native automations or native integrations, I should say. And so really what we're doing is we're breaking and pulling out the back end to see what can we do with this thing and we're telling it what to do. It is a little bit different. Webhooks are different than an API integration or a native integration, but they do work a little bit.

Differently.

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I love that example. So when someone signs a doc, you use PandaDoc. Others include hello Sign DocuSign. When someone signs a doc, the scenario will then move them forward in your HubSpot pipeline. Is that just, you know, relabeling that client or they go from something to something or is it a cascade of more things happening like oh, once they move from prospective to active client in HubSpot, these other five things also.

Happen. Yeah, they would move from proposal sent and then the person would view the proposal like say and then let's say everything looks good. We've had our meetings, we've clarified all the points in the proposal. We can say okay, Great. They've signed it and they've paid. Rather than sending out a manual email to say, hey, we got your payment and your signature, here are the next steps. Here's your project manager. It would be on Panadoc then to say to HubSpot, hey, this person signed and paid, we're all good. HubSpot moves it to deal one and closed. And then that could trigger an internal workflow inside of HubSpot. So it's webhooks. In this case, how we use it or want to use it is like telling it what to do. Having two way communication, that wouldn't be possible because the tools just haven't created that ability for us to do that yet. We have to break the back end, do it ourselves. So yes, there would be other things that we trigger off of these initial triggers and then there are endless amounts of actions that you can see take place as a result of.

That. Thank you for indulging us in this one micro moment of the process. But I think what I find so empowering about stuff like this is that this is a crucial moment when somebody signs on the dotted line and they become a new client and the last thing you want is for it to fall through the cracks of welcoming them and getting them onboarded with next steps. And so the fact that any piece of this can be automated and when you know exactly what the next step is in the process is probably reassuring. It's like there's not a chance for error or at least nearly as much as if it were on a person and oh, they were sick that day and you know, I don't know any of the other things that could happen when this is something that could be automated in this.

Way. Yeah, and we talked about this a bit earlier. Like we love to just do these things in our spare time and. And though I didn't say that at the time, yeah, that's absolutely it for me. If it's a Friday night. I mean I'm married, I got kids, I'm not going anywhere on Friday night. But on a Friday night, if I got the TV on or the Office is playing or something, I'm thinking about this stuff. I have open lucidchart and I'm mapping out what this workflow could be. And that is so fun to me. I don't know what it is. I'll have Make Open and HubSpot open and I'm reading up on webhooks and I'm trying to, I'm looking at the API documents myself because I'm not going to bug one of my developers on the weekend, but I'm like, can I try and figure this out and get it part of the way there? And then Monday morning I'll be like, hey, look what I did. Can you finish this for me? I love that stuff and I think there has to be an element of that as an entrepreneur. I'm going to butcher it right now, but I'm reading a book by Jonathan Hensley called Alignment, and he said that entrepreneurs have to have an element of creative design tech. And I can't remember the third one, but it might have been operations. So there has to be a moment where from a design perspective, you're thinking creatively, you're the visionary for the company, but you also have to have this tech side of you where you're curious enough to think, how can this be improved? How can we turn this into a platform? You got to be tuned in on the software side of things or just be doing well enough in your business. You can hire people to think about all that for you. But I think as the visionaries and leaders, like, there's gotta be an element of that, and I think that's why I love it so much, is because I think I possess a little bit of all three and I can exercise that.

Regularly. Yeah, it's so funny your example, because on 4th of July I was there, I had my laptop, my husband was just getting over being sick and I was like wrestling with zapier. I couldn't get it to do what I wanted because Circle, the community forum software I use doesn't allow you to schedule posts. And I want to be able to add a prompt to my Notion database and have a zap schedule it, send it to Circle only on the pub date that I've indicated in Notion. So I never want to leave Notion. I don't want to use airtable or Sheets because everything I have is in Notion. And I spent the entire afternoon just wrestling with these, like, getting countless error messages. I still don't think I quite got it to work, but I know I'm super close. And you know what's funny is like one day Circle is going to add the functionality of scheduled posts and in a sense all the time I spent will be wasted. But sometimes I am able to figure these things out in a way that I kind of solve it before the software does. So it's okay. You know, a lot of times entire new companies will crop up with things that I used to have to try to hack together manually. But it is Satisfying to try. It's like a.

Puzzle. There's a meme about that. I can't remember what it is, but it's something along the lines of like, why do something manually? And it would take you an hour. Or you can spend 10 hours trying to automate.

It.

Right. It really is so true. It's like we will spend our entire weekend just trying to think through these problems when we could do it manually and it would take us two.

Seconds. It's death by a thousand cuts. If I have to manually remember to post something or have to see a reminder multiple times a week to go do a manual thing when I could have batched 10 at once and know that Zapier is going to post them on the correct day and time for the next 10 or 30 prompts. You know, like it is worth it. But that meme is really funny. If you find it, send it to.

Me. I will try and find.

It. Yeah, I'm excited to check out Alignment too. Thanks for mentioning that book. The last question markie is if you could give fellow business owners permission to do something differently or drop something altogether, what would it.

Be? Stop apologizing for wanting perfection or wanting to improve. Kim Scott is a great author. She used to be an executive at Google and Apple and wrote a book called Radical Candor. And I think as the leaders as entrepreneurs, especially if we're starting out, I think one of the hardest things to do is work with a team and build a positive culture. But within that, I feel like we're often afraid of saying no to things that we don't want to do because we feel like we have to say yes and be available for everyone and make sure everyone is happy and taken care of. And though there is an element of that that is very, very important, your time is the most important thing. Definitely saying no, but not being afraid to protect your time so that you can work in your zone of genius. I mean, the more that you can say no to, whether it be someone on your team trying to get your time, whether it be someone wanting to catch up and have a coffee date, is more of an opportunity where you can spend time on the things that matter to you that are going to be life giving to you and ultimately build you up so that you can be better for the business. So what Kim Scott talks about is Radical Candor. It's like you have these conversations and you don't want to give feedback. That's too harsh. But it's not harsh, right? It's encouraging. It's the thing that someone needs to hear. It's being direct but loving. And you're doing it from a point that is loving and understanding that you want to see that person.

Grow. Awesome. I love Kim Scott. I actually worked with her at Google many layers down the org chart. But I would be in meetings with her and she was so powerful to watch. Just to see her run a meeting was like a treat. Just a front row seat. The phenom that is Kim Scott and seeing what she's been doing, you.

Gotta have another chat just on that then I.

Know. Yes. This is wonderful, Marquis. Thank you so much. Where can people find you if they want to keep in.

Touch? Yeah, I hang out on LinkedIn pretty much all the time. Marquis Murray thinkdado.com is my website if you want to know more. If you are a system process person like Jenny said, I got a podcast called In Systems We Trust and you can head over there and start listening to some of the conversations for a split.

Second. I thought you said I think Ditto.com is my website and I thought, wow, that's really removed that you're not sure your domain. I'm like kudas, you know, you've delegated so much. But then I realized it's Think Ditto, which is so good. Of course from a system to process, reinforcement, perspective. Yeah. I was like, no, that can't be true that you think you know your company. Yeah. Awesome. Thank you Marquis. And big thanks to everybody who's here listening. I'm putting all these great tool and mentions in the show notes.

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