137: What's Your Brand Archetype? Unlock Your Innate Advantage with Kaye Putnam

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Quick plug before we jump into today's episode and a reminder in case it's not already on your radar, I am going to be leading a free masterclass coming up on 1010 at 10am Eastern on Zoom called what else 10 streams of scalable solopreneur income. I am so excited to lead this course. I'm going to walk you through exactly what I earn across over 10 streams of income, the pros, cons and systems considerations for each stream, and mostly lessons learned the hard way. I'm not saying you should, if you're just starting out, that you should try to set up 12 things at once. It's not going to work very well, but eight years in I can share what is working, why I do have so many and the three that I'm going to double down on for the year ahead. So if you want to join us, I would love to have you. You can register for free at pivot love 10 streams. That's pivot love 10 streams with a 1 and a 0 not spelled out, pivot love 10 and the word streams. And we'll talk about all kinds of things as it relates to scalable solopreneur income, including how to radically transform your bookkeeping, the importance of stimulating steady recurring revenue, and Q and A to answer anything else that's on your mind. This masterclass also kicks off doors reopening for my private momentum community for solopreneurs with crazy smart systems to build your ideal six figure heart based business in the year ahead. And who knows, maybe some of you are even building towards seven figures and beyond. So I'm really excited. It's there's so much going on and I'm just thrilled to be at the point of sharing it all with you. So if you want to join us for 10 streams of scalable solopreneur income, that's at Pivot Love 10 streams. 10 streams. And now onto today's show.

What's next? This is a question we're all having to ask and answer more frequently. I'm Jenny Blake, your host of the Pivot Podcast and author of the Only Move that matters is your next one.

For show notes from this episode, visit pivotmethod.com podcast. If change is the only constant, then let's get better at it. Here we go.

I am delighted to be here today with my guest, Kay Putnam. Kay is a psychology driven brand strategist for entrepreneurs. Through work with hundreds of clients, from global brands to solo business owners, she developed the Clarity Code. Kay is possibly most famous for her Brandality quiz where you can unlock which of 12 brand archetypes you are. I just did this. We'll get into it on the show, but we'll link to a PDF that gives an overview of these archetypes in the show notes. So just go to pivotmethod.com brandality spelled like the word brand B R A N D ality A L I T Y I'm so excited about this interview because Kay is one of the rare people who reached out to me and there's a backstory about that too. But I went, she said, I think this would be a great fit for your audience and I get a lot of these. But for some reason I clicked over to Kay's site and I was so drawn in by her bright personality. It's so her. It's so authentic, it's so entertaining and interesting and informative that I actually had that moment of yes, I would love to speak with her and with all of you for the Pivot podcast. So without further ado, Kay, welcome to the show.

Jenny, I am so geeked and so honored to be here. I'm telling you, I'm having a little bit of a fan girl moment because when I first entered this online entrepreneurship world about six years ago, you were one of the entrepreneurs that I looked up to. So that was back in your life after college days when you're really focused on that. And it's so exciting to see how your brand has transitioned and pivoted over the years and so excited to have this conversation.

Thank you. Well, I have to say I did hire a brand strategist for Pivot. I knew that it would be important, but this is an area that has always intimidated and vexed me to an extent because I'm a very word based verbal thinker. I think in words and systems and checklists and text. And when it comes to expressing myself visually and with brand strategy, I always just get so overwhelmed. I feel like I need to. I can't really express myself. I have a hard time even kind of creating images that I'm happy with on sites like Canva. And I get stuck. I get like brand block. Maybe not with the big things like pivot that I know I need to invest a ton of time and resources into, but even with smaller extensions of the brand, I'd love for us to just start there. Like, you work with a lot of solopreneurs. How do you move them from brand block and not being differentiated and being overwhelmed of where to even start with the visual voice of what they do to some sort of clarity and even easy first steps that people can take.

Yes, this is so, so common. Expressing yourself visually is like learning an entirely new language. It's like learning Italian, if you will. We were talking on our before we started recording about how we lived in Italy for three years. And it doesn't come naturally to everybody. And I think one of the most common mistakes or blocks that I see, especially with new entrepreneurs, is that we get a little bit too wrapped up in what other people are doing or what's trendy at the moment, instead of expressing our truth through both our words and our voice and our visuals. So I always tell people that we want to build your brand on truth and not trends. And one of my favorite tools to making that happen is to connect with your brand archetype because it immediately deepens the conversation beyond, like, what do I want to look like? To how do I want to show up? What is my purpose? What is the unique personality of me? If you're a solopreneur or my brand, even if you have a really massive team, the biggest brands in the world, from Coca Cola to Harley Davidson, use brand archetypes to connect on a very emotional level to their ideal clients. And smaller entrepreneurs like myself and my clients can do that as well.

I was so excited to see you taking these brand archetypes and bringing them to life, because that alone is already going from. From overwhelm to. Okay, here are 12 archetypes and your quiz. I just took your quiz and it was so helpful. We'll get into that in a moment. But my understanding is you based you took these 12 brand archetypes are from a book called the Hero and the Outlaw Building Extraordinary Brands through the Power of Architect Archetypes. Is that right? Is that where you got the 12?

Yes. Yes, it is. I actually didn't even realize it when I first started the quiz. I found the archetypes on this website that it looked like it was built on geocities or angelfire back in the 90s. Just this janky old website. It did nothing but list the 12 archetypes and what their fears, motivations and drives were. And it was like one of those incredible like career light bulb epiphany moments because I immediately saw what I'd been missing in my own brand. And I really leaned into archetypes because I was having a lot of trouble figuring out how to be myself because all of the advice that I was hearing was just be yourself, just be authentic. And I was left with the question of like, okay, but how do I do that? Like, who am I really? So, yeah, I love the archetypes for helping you narrow in and filter your decision.

It's so true. And it's. I said before we hit record as well that you have achieved this because you had me out of dozens of pitches that we get every week, you actually had me leaping out of my proverbial email inbox to book you for the show. So I could say for sure that whatever you've discovered is actually working. And you're right that we hear advice all the time. Be authentic. Even for me, I'm so happy you mentioned building a brand on truth and not just falling into this templatized and also compare and despair of what everyone else is doing. Even I struggle with it. Even I'm someone that. I've always tried to just be real and talk to people as if they're my friends and not put glossy veneer and shine on things. And. And still it's. I get stuck sometimes thinking I have so much in my head and in my heart. Like how do I communicate it? You know, how do I get it out there?

And yes, yes, I was just gonna. Sorry to interrupt, Jenny. I was just gonna jump in because like we're. We' multifaceted human beings. Like I'm the mother which connects to the caregiver archetype. I'm a has been washed up athlete, which is kind of like that rah rah hero archetype. I love to travel and explore, which is the explorer. Like there's so many different pieces of our personality that we could bring forward. But frankly, if you did, if you tried to be all of the things to all of the people, we kind of all know intuitively that that doesn't really work. People don't remember something that doesn't have handles to grab onto and remember it for.

And it's probably the case too that sometimes others can see archetypes within us or what's most prominent that we ourselves are sort of too close to. Which is why it's funny, I had no idea until this moment when we're hitting record that Kay was familiar with my work from the life after college days. So it's very funny that you've actually seen the journey a bit from the outside. More so than even for me when I have a, like, direct sitting in the front seat. We don't always see.

Quick question for you. I'm curious which of the brand archetypes you are and if you feel that it's important to narrow it down to one, or if you have a. I would call it a pivot portfolio, but, you know, a brand archetype sort of mix or blend that you have.

Yes, exactly. It's like trying to read the label of a bottle from the inside. That might be a little bit of a tired analogy, but it rings so true for me. You're like sitting in your own brain, and there's just these different ideas and curiosities and interests. So, yeah, I just. I needed something to, like, hone in on what my actual strengths are, and the quiz became this great tool for doing that. So my blend. I always recommend that people choose two, typically a primary and a secondary. But not to get too caught up in, like, having a certain percentage of each or anything like that. Just pull inspiration from two of them because it gives you, like, a delicious range of ways that you can express yourselves so you don't have to feel like you're, like, stuck in a little box or anything like that. So my primary is Sage. So I love to teach, I love to share what I know, I love to read. I'm obsessive about reading. My Kindle is ridiculous. And then my secondary is magician. So all about, like, transformation. And then kind of counterintuitively to the stage, like, realizing our own inner power, like realizing how we have the power to create our world and our future just by what is already inside of us.

Ooh, so good. So good. And I can relate so much to both, especially Sage. So that one came up in. Interestingly, I took your quiz and I was 25% on four archetypes. So, yes, I'll have to narrow them down. And I was thinking to myself, oh, no, of course my self talk was like, oh, no, is this. I'm already wishy washy. I have 25% across the board. But it's true, because sometimes I can't. It also goes to show that I'm a Libra and I'm indecisive and I can't really narrow it down too much with the questions. Like, I kind of tried to keep it balanced, but the ones that came up for me are Sage as well, explorer, girl, guy next door, and innocent. And just to expand, you have these kind of word clouds for each one. So Sage is also mentor, teacher, girl, guy next door. I love that. Explorer is also guide and a seeker, just like you. I love to learn. And then innocent. I thought that was a funny one that I was not expecting. Innocent slash natural. Sl. Joyful Is that word cloud?

Yes. Yes. And innocent is all about bringing things, like uncomplicating things. So Whole Foods is a really good, big brand example of the innocent. Yeah. So it's just. It's just coming back to, like, the kernel of truth or the natural state of things, because so much of our world is over complicated or, like, over developed in some ways. So almost like an organic type of brand.

I can't believe you brought up Whole Foods, because this is crazy right now. First of all, I saw innocent, and I'm like, I don't really know what that means, kind of thinking, oh, I'll skip it. But simplifying is definitely one of my core values. And Whole Foods happens to be one of my happy places. This might make me basic, according to people on the Internet. I don't care. I've lived near a Whole Foods all eight years that I've been in New York, first in my apartment downtown and now uptown. I've always been two blocks from a Whole Foods, and I used to hate grocery stores because I remember as a little kid, my mom would have us wait in the car back when that wasn't illegal, and she'd go grocery shopping or we'd have to go in. And I just hated the experience for some reason. So Whole Foods for the first time, is actually a place I don't mind. It's like a grocery store I'm not allergic to. So it's just a very funny tangent and side note of how I wonder, and maybe you could riff on this a little bit, how we could almost determine our own two major brand archetypes by seeing what we connect to most in the outside world.

Yes. I always like to tell people that you have veto power, so try not to judge it so much by the name, because there's a couple of them that tend to be triggering for people. Innocent is one of them.

Like some of the archetypes, like hero or like Maverick, the people get the results and they're like, oh, heck, yes, this is totally me. This is awesome. And then some of them, some people rebel against the girl next door. I see a lot of that in your brand. Actually, as well, because you have the whole community aspect.

And I've always said, I want my books to be as if you're sitting at coffee with a friend. So I actually didn't see that as a bad thing. I'm like, can't lie. That's how I want it to be. I really see. I don't use words like fans and followers because I just see us all as.

I love that. Yeah. That authenticity, that transparency, just being relatable and vulnerable is the strength of the girl or the guy next door. So beyond giving yourself the permission to have veto power and just to kind of like lean into a lot of the examples that I share, other people share about each of the archetypes and seeing where your gut and your heart leads you, the other thing that I like to tell people is there's just no wrong answer. Like humans. The beautiful thing about this tool is humans are attracted to all 12 of the underlying motivations and themes below them. Like, we all want love, we all want wisdom, we all want transformation. So you're not going to go wrong by selecting two, but get the benefit of the tool by filtering it down to 2.

Do you feel that our brand archetypes, let's say for a solopreneur who's running their own business, that's going to pivot many times over the years. If the business is really growing with you as a person, do you feel like our brand archetype shifts over time, or are these our innate kind of soul expression and they're pretty stable over time?

A little bit of both, I think so. Personally, my brand has flip flops. I used to lead with Magician, and I really have realized over the years that I'm at my best. I'm at, like, my natural strength. It's my innate advantage when I'm learning and then sharing what I know. So I've leaned into that side of myself more and I've come to terms with it. I guess it's okay to be geeky and nerdy and all of these things. So I've consciously switched that strategy in my business to lead a little bit more with that. And then I've had tons of clients, especially as you're going through a big life transition where you yourself have changed. We're not stagnant human beings. We're not going to be one way of forever that maybe like changing your secondary or tweaking the mix a little bit can be really beneficial to just help you feel more grounded and secure and certain about your brand.

The PDF that We mentioned when we started this show is the 12 Brand Archetypes Demand Triggers PDF. And again, if you're listening, you can go to pivotmethod.com brandality to get that PDF. Tell us, Kay, what are demand triggers? What does that mean? And as the brand. And thanks for sharing your story about how your brand has shifted and evolved over time. What are these demand triggers and how can we weave them in, in a way, while honoring our truth, just exactly as you said at the beginning.

So the demand triggers for each of the archetypes are my, like, plea for all of entrepreneurs and all of businesses and brands to make business more human. So again, it goes beyond that, like, outward expression. Like, what are my colors, what are my fonts? What are the words and the personality that I'm using to like, what is the psy behind why the, you know, why people are actually attracted to me? Like, why, why are people drawn to me like a magnet when I'm being my best self? And it's articulating that because again, it's really hard to see yourself clearly. It's really hard to recognize your own strengths. So I hope that people can use that PDF as a mirror to see which sounds most like them because you'll, you'll recognize yourself in some of the statements about each of the archetypes.

Okay, but if I'm being truly honest, and I feel this way a lot, especially as I build things and I get ready to launch programs, I feel like if I'm truly being honest, I would not have this, like, shiny brand. I wouldn't even have a lot of imagery. I don't like stock photography. I don't even like pictures of me looking glamorous, cavorting around my website, like, I can't stand it. I don't want a photographer on monthly subscription and just releasing photos of myself looking ridiculously beautiful and better than I look 95% of the time. And yet you can hear in my language, in my words, I feel some amount of pressure. I feel like it's not a good thing and not, not just because of my own brand or business. But there's a part of me that feels bad. Well, if I don't use imagery, if I don't use polished brand materials and branded logos for my courses, then I won't be speaking to those people in my community who are visually, they do have a more visual language and they would want to see things like that in order to be drawn in. Whereas my default and my preference is just really scrappy text on A page? Yep.

Sneak.

I need you.

So I think there's this. This balance that I'm sure you've, like, innately just recognized. So there's the shoulds in business, right? Like, I should show up and on a personal portrait and show people my face so people can connect with me. I should give some of those implied credibility cues that I have my stuff together. But then I think once you subscribe to what you are going to do, your archetype gives you permission to do it your way. So I would absolutely recommend that you share a lot of candid and very vulnerable and real photography of yourself, because that is so true to who you are, even, like, in this short conversation that I'm hearing from you. So that would be a great representation.

What if I just. I'm not even on Instagram because I couldn't stand the notion of, like, posting a photo from my life every day.

And this is your sage side coming out.

And again, so you have permission to lean into what makes you you. So I would argue that you should have some photos somewhere. So that might be like, the visual in me speaking, but figure out a way to do them in a way that feels good and balance it with a lot of text. So focus on the text. Focus on the things that come to you naturally and maybe just save the photo for like, your homepage header and your about page and just leave it at that. Give yourself permission to lean into the things that make you uniquely you. And being a sage girl next door, that would be either just easy, vulnerable, natural photos, or in lieu of that, just text. I mean, you think about even not saying you have to be on Instagram because that's totally not what I'm recommending. But some of the biggest Instagram accounts on the platform are just text. Like, just quotes or just like messages, like, literally text on a graphic type of situation. So there's a million different ways to do business, and your customers are going to respond to you when you're doing it in the way that's most authentic to you.

I wholeheartedly believe you have such a soothing manner. Like, I love the quote of the podcast. It's just you have permission to do things in a way that's authentic to you, which is a huge message of the Pivot podcast. P.S. but as I said, we all forget these things or we all have these areas that are. That are vexing, and branding is one of them. So I really appreciate that reminder. And just the cues, the credibility cues versus doing it your way, that's. It's so helpful and I have to say as an aside slash pro tip, it's really worth investing when you're ready. I don't think. I don't think a brand strategy should hold somebody back from just getting started with their business. I think there is such a thing as too early for a big fancy brand strategy. But I am so grateful that I spent that money. I think at the time and this was a friend discount but I probably spent 25,000 before Pivot came out on a full on four month brand strategy consulting package. Soup to nuts, logos, icons, images, social media, you name it. And it was the best money I have spent because here I am now it's math is not my strong suit. Like almost four years later and I use it all the time. I use it all the time and it hasn't gone stale, it hasn't gone well. Maybe, maybe my audience thinks so, but I I am still happy with all of what they created and produced and so it was really money so well spent that keeps on giving over time and that I do feel like is really lasting. So I'm so happy that I invested to get it right versus I have also used sites like 99designs in the past and it's okay, but I don't feel for some reason it doesn't last as long. I wonder if you could give insight into why and even when people should invest in one type or the other.

Mm yeah, I love that you said that because it's what I'm preaching all the time. Because it's again, when you go back to that truth of who you are and then letting a professional translate that into this other language that you don't have a lot of experience with. The visual language.

Becomes a rock solid foundation and it takes it off of your plate. Not in just the sense that you don't have to design anything anymore, but when you have the high standards set, it's easier to scale. Like you can create new products, you can launch a new book, you can do different things without reinventing the wheel every single day of your business life. I actually think of branding as a system. Like when I deliver a brand strategy for clients, my high end clients, I create this whole website of their brand. Like these are the exact standards that you're going to.

Live up to as long as your business is the way that it is. So I just love that you had such a good experience and shared that because I think it's such a underutilized tool to scale, especially as you're bringing on team members. So if you're at that inflection point in your business where you're not going to be the only person or you want to like, stop micromanaging the creation on behalf of your brand, and you want to empower some people on your team or some contractors to do that for you, I think it's really important to take a step back first and make sure you have your brand set. And again, not to repeat myself, but not just the colors and the fonts and the logos, but, like, what do I actually stand for? Who am I? What is my position in the market? How does that come through in the products and offerings, the way that I'm talking about them and the decisions I'm making.

So well said. And you can repeat it as many times as you need because it's so important to hear all of this. And that's what the brand strategy team My friend Adam Chaloya, Cheap who there's a really early one of the first 10 Pivot podcasts is with him. I'll put it in the show notes. But he taught me that, that there's so much strategy that behind when you see an icon or a logo or colors or typography, that's the last. Those are the last things that get created. I didn't know that. And we did put so much effort into the strategy long before it ever came to be. I recently shared in a Pivot List newsletter that I shared my favorite cashmere, like work from home. I call it the business mullet, where sometimes if you're on a video call, it's like fancy on top and then sweats on the bottom. And there's this company to dominate that has a cashmere jumpsuit. And if this is like my uniform for working from home, it's $175. It's like relatively in the range of affordable if you're wearing it every day. I'll put it in the show notes, of course. But what's funny about that, it's kind of like the Whole Foods example, is that back in 2015, when we were doing the Pivot brand strategy, Adam asked me, if your brand were a fabric, what would it be? And I knew right away it's cashmere. And cashmere to me is cozy, luxurious, soft, comfortable. And then some cashmere is accessible and then some of it's higher priced, you know, And I just like, I feel good when I wear cashmere. Like soft, fuzzy things. So, yeah, as a total tangent, as.

A total side note, I'm super glad that you can't See me right now. I shared that we just moved into a house. I literally sitting in my daughter's. There's these, like, little cloth teepees that they make or, like, little tents. So I'm, like, sitting under that to, like, try to quell some of the echo of being in a big, empty house. So I love online entrepreneurship for that reason.

Amazing. I don't know if any of our guests have ever been calling in from a teepee.

I don't know if that's politically correct anymore, so.

Oh, that's true. Let's call it a four. Yes.

It's a fort. It's a little fort. Oh, gosh. But and just as some thought exercises for those that are listening, that's a really great exercise. Like, if your brand was a car, if your brand was an animal, if your brand was a favorite outfit or a song, it starts to stretch your mind in different ways so that you can think about all of the ways that you show up. And then when you're working with a professional, like Adam or like me, we'll take some of those ideas and, like, run with them. Like, we'll. We'll like, literally make some. Like, for example, like, some of the shapes in your brand could be probably be like circles as opposed to, like, hard triangles, just because that feels like softer and more inclusive and more community driven. So that's part of that, like, design language that a professional can help you bring to life.

You mentioned two very important things and also things that are like, music to my ears. You talked about branding as a system, which I would love to hear more about. And also scale and the importance of having a clear brand strategy from A to Z of what you stand for, all the way down to the kind of style guide and standards and that sort of thing for scaling. And it's so true because starting to delegate. I'm even noticing that if I want to get help with the podcast, there needs to be templates and brand assets. And whether it's for the Pivot podcast or the website or even Momentum, which has its own service sort of sub brand and logo set, that it's really helpful to be clear on that. Otherwise the team doesn't really know where to start for creating anything that's visual that goes out for the business. Yeah, I would just love to hear your take on branding as a system and even your setup. Like, are you a solopreneur? Are you solo plus, do you work with teammates of any kind? And. And how do you navigate? So just really maybe two very different questions. But branding as a system and then even how UK are set up. Because I would imagine that at a certain point, probably with the success of your quiz as well, you can't probably take on every single client that reaches out to you. Or at least not if you didn't scale.

Yeah, yeah. The problem with a lot of entrepreneurs after you've been in business for a while is you get this closet full of stuff that you've just shoved in together. You've added a program here, you've added some type of messaging here, and it becomes a is. I imagine like this just disjointed closet full of stuff.

I call it like it becomes a rickety old mansion. Like you bought a mansion and it was a mansion for a minute and then things started falling apart and going a little halo.

So the act of translating that mess or that like hodgepodge, Scotch tape together into a cohesive clear brand is just kind of like going through and evaluating it, you know, maybe giving it the Marie Kondo design. This still represent me. Does this give me joy type of situation and then documenting it. I think it's not something that early entrepreneurs should be focusing their time on. But once you get down the road a little bit and you are hiring team members, you're hiring contractors, it's so important to shortcut that onboarding process and that delegation process and still get really great results that are based on your business, not just this experts.

Take or perspective on your business, because it could be completely different. I've worked with sales copywriters who are so incredibly talented, like some of the best in the business. But I still had to impose my brand standards onto the work that they created for me. And I was able to do that without a lot of revisions and hand holding and micromanaging because I've done in advance to set up this. These brand standards. So what I call it is my brand source book. I can actually even send you a link. It's like public on the web. Anybody can look at it. I just use myself as an example.

Yeah, we'll throw it in the show notes and just. I know, I just want to say it again because you never know where people join pivotmethod.com brandality and we'll just throw all the links that we've just been talking about in there.

Perfect. And it details everything. So down to how we're going to use punctuation all the way up to like, what is the big question that we're answering in the world? My big question is the thing that you would talk about on a TEDx stage, or if you bought a 30 second commercial during the American super bowl, you would spend a million dollars trying to answer this question or get other people intrigued in this question. So mine is, how do we figure out who we really are and how to fully express that? Every business has a question that goes much greater than the products and services that you sell that guides all of your decisions, from the very big top level strategy down to how are we using caps and emojis in our business or not? Is documented in these brand standards that I call the sourcebook.

It's so funny. Stephanie just emailed me. Where do you stand on emojis? And it's such a good question. And that's the kind of thing that I have. A style guide that's old and needs to be updated. But emojis weren't even really as much of a thing five years ago. So it's an incredibly important and valid question. And I actually. I actually do have a philosophy on emoji use. And it's not zero, but it's not too many. And. Yeah, yeah.

And there's probably certain ones that you favor and certain ones that you would never use.

That's true. You know, I use textexpander. Speaking of just geeking out on software for a minute. Textexpander for everything thing. And I even have a folder called emojis. And then I just need to type in. My little shortcut is like, I call it like a semicolon laugh, cry. And then it populates that emoji when I'm typing an email.

That helps me use emojis on my computer with great efficiency and ease.

I love it.

Yeah, Yeah.

I use the nerd emoji.

I love the nerd emoji. Oh, my gosh. All right. Kay, I'm sensing an article on emojis for your 12 brand archetypes.

Yes. Which ones are relevant to you?

I love the nerd. I love the nerd. And I love. This is so funny right now. I love the girl with the short brown hair who's waving, which is so girl next door. Oh, my God.

Yes, it totally is.

Wow. Okay. Okay.

And then you asked about my team, Jenny. So I am a solopreneur at this point and I have a team of contractors. So there are definitely people on my team that are helping me show up as my brand. And they do it as well, if not better, which is kind of weird to say than I do. I put a lot of focus into my YouTube channel right now. As my main platform for content. But then I have an incredible member of my team, Jana, who takes that content and then repurposes it to our email list and to our Facebook group and all the places where I want the content distributed. And she knows my voice so well. But I fully believe it's because I've taken the time to say what that is like, I've made the decisions and it's not something that happens overnight. Like you get some stuff back and you're like, oh, that's not quite right. So let's add this to the standard so that it doesn't. So that it gets better and better over time. But yeah, I think it's just such a powerful tool when you're working with anybody who's going to show up on behalf of your brand, whether that's a coach that you're employing or a designer or copywriter that they know, without a doubt, this is what my brand is. This is what my brand is not. Here's what we do, here's what we don't.

One of the important things that you talk about and the reason for doing this is also to attract your best fit clients. And I actually will come back to your business setup in a moment because I'm really fascinated. I love what you just shared and even hearing about living in Italy for three years is so, so interesting. So that's a little teaser of the following question, but I want to read it. A quote from an article that you wrote on bad fit clients. You say, none of us want to work with these bad fit clients. The ones who don't value your process, question your expertise, don't respect your boundaries, and worst part, detract from your ability to serve your other clients. But how do you get to the point where the majority or all of your clients are those dreamy perfect fit? Oh, just. I just love your way with words. Thank you. True. That brand strategy. I don't think for the most part when people hear the phrase brand strategy, we necessarily directly connect it to sifting through and helping clients sift themselves. Not. Not bad. Of course, no one's bad inherently, but just a bad fit for that business or that provider. What do you see when brand strategy kind of goes wrong or isn't as tightly put together, at least the story and the mission. Why is it that that attracts, quote, bad fit clients? And then what's the converse? And I'd actually be curious if there was a time in your business where you were like not quite attracting the people that you wanted and any One or two specific tips of how you turn things around.

I like to think of this almost as the contrast between maybe you're first starting out and you're applying to jobs on job boards. Like you have essentially zero brand at that point. You're just applying to do the work, like to do the job, and in that case, your client. So if you get hired is dictating everything. And this may or may not be in your highest interest, it might not be in your zone of genius, but you're just, you're doing the thing because there's just like money. It's an exchange of value, right? But on the complete flip side, when you have a fully functioning brand that's doing what it should, you are in advance sharing what the promise of the outcome is. You're saying what you believe in and you're sharing beliefs that not everybody's going to resonate with. You're talking about things that aren't even maybe necessarily directly related to your product or service. And it's automatically and, and beautifully narrowing the number of people that you're going to work with. Because especially as a solopreneur or a freelancer or somebody who's working directly with clients, a person who just doesn't have a good personality fit with you or a good values fit with you can kind of rock your world in a negative way. So the more that we can be shameless about sharing with those beliefs, those point of views, your process, your signature service is that outcome that you're promising. The more that your clients can self select and you're going to have way more fun working with them.

Makes a lot of sense. And how about was there a time in your business where you noticed this happening and then turned it around?

Yes. I mean, it's kind of crazy because every time I feel like I take a job just because it's a good quote unquote opportunity, like it's a good revenue opportunity, but it's not somebody who really knows who I am. And this still happens. I'm like, I'm human. This still happens to me. Like it happened to me last year. You know, took a job from a referral. It was a wonderful human being, but we like just did not jive together. Partly because I didn't have the opportunity through my brand. Like that organic relationship that develops when somebody comes into contact with your brand to educate her on what I stand for and how I do things. And part of that was built into the back end client process, but not enough where it made that relationship work. So we ended up parting ways. It didn't really work out. It was kind of heartbreaking for probably both of us. But that happens less and less and less. The more clear and the more unapologetic you get about sharing what your brand is and what you stand for.

I like the way you put it of educating and it's. That's where it does get tricky. It's like there's the clear bucket of obviously not a fit and then there's a gray zone. And I find that that gray zone shifts over time as well. Like there were times where one on one coaching was my bridge income. It was everything, it was the foundation. And then there are times where I'm shifting and I need more space in my schedule or I mean the type of person doesn't change. There's a certain energy that I love of a person that I like to work with. But yeah, it's also that education piece. And I've gotten more and more courageous over the years of even how I write sales copy. Like the momentum, invitation to the community. Like I'm even shifting that language to just more and more. I remember when I launched it in 2015, it felt bold of me to just start out with you are a smart, generous, creative like generous being the keyword. I didn't want anyone there who sees themselves as a taker or who doesn't. She doesn't self identify as generous. That was just a driving value of that community. Generous of spirit, generous with resources, open, willing to share, willing to jump in on other people's projects and give input and feedback. So yeah, I think it's that education piece and the courage. Yeah, the courage to just say sorry like this is who a fit? Who's a fit?

Yeah, yeah, it's okay. It's okay not to be everybody's cup of tea. Cannot remember the quote attribution but somebody said like you could be the juiciest, ripest peach in the world and there's still people who don't like peaches. So I remember that every time I'm feeling a little bit reserved or like I should hold back or maybe I'm going to rub people the wrong way and remind myself that the more of my true self that I bring to my business into my marketing and my brand.

Again, more people are going to opt in and the wrong people are going to opt out and we're all going to be better off for it.

That I recently heard that Tim Ferriss interviewed Dita Von Teese and I think.

That'S who it was.

And the thing I don't know is if it's Dita's quote or if she was quoting one of her mentors and inspiration. So I'll find out either way and I'll put a link to that podcast in the show notes because it was a good conversation that they had.

Oh yes, I want to listen to it. So it was like one of those Pinterest quotes that just like hits you the right way.

Yeah. Then it gets like pulled and Pinterested and put all over. Yes, I love it. Okay, one more thing. And then I just dying here about Italy. One thing you talked about is realizing you're no different from your competition. And I even recently had this heart drop, stomach sinking moment of just every time I was going to build something new within the momentum community, I'm always trying to create courses and systems. I would see somebody launch something bigger, better, more detailed, more robust, more branded. And I started to get so discouraged. It was like every idea. And I had this sinking fear and it's like this driving fear that I have of that I'm no different from my competition. Now I don't even use the word competition. I don't really believe in that. But feeling like I'm not, not only am I not different, but it's like every idea I was having, I felt like someone else was doing it better. And I would rather send people over to those programs and products than even bother to keep building it. The idea that I had now sometimes I think that's a good thing. I don't want to teach people how to run Facebook ads because I don't run them. I'll happily send them else to elsewhere. But then there were certain things where I had a genuine interest and I got very discouraged because I realized this content is no different from so much of what's out there. And that was frustrating. And there is also, let's be honest, there is a lot online about teaching people how to build businesses online. So why do we have this fear of being no different from our competition and how do we deal with it? AKA me? Even when I go through these dips when there is so much out there, there's so much similar content out there.

I'm totally raising my hand right now and nodding furiously because I have been in this boat so many times and I'll kind of give you the self coaching that I give myself. So it amazes me how often I come across a six or seven figure business that's just an online business that I have never heard of. Like they have their own audience, like, they're doing their own thing. They might even be teaching something super similar to me, but I have, like, literally never heard of them. And this phenomenon happens for your ideal clients, too. Like, they don't. And even more so because they're probably not in it. Like, as aware as you are of these, all these other people. So if it's in your zone of genius, if it's in. In your strategy to create a product, the thing that I always remind myself is that I'm going to deliver this information in a way that nobody else can. It's going to go through the filter of my brand, my personality, my experiences, in a way that nobody else can duplicate. This is your innate advantage. And if you don't share it, even if somebody's heard the exact same information before, which I think happens.

There'S a possibility and there's an opportunity that it's going to land in a completely new way for this person and dramatically change their life. So you holding back that genius that's inside of you is potentially hugely detrimental to the people that you're serving. So just put yourself back into the active service. And then if that doesn't work, like, how can I serve? How can I serve? How can I serve? The other thing to remember is, what is the opportunity cost if somebody doesn't get this information from me? What if they don't take action at all? Like, how much could that negatively impact their life or their business if they don't learn systems, if they don't learn how to start a podcast or whatever you're selling or whatever you're creating? If your person in your audience doesn't learn that, there's probably a huge negative consequence that you could help them avoid by getting to that promised land or whatever that thing is that you're selling that you can uniquely share.

So, yes, most of that makes sense, and I really appreciate you saying it. I'm going to give you my fiercest little inner gremlin, okay, that the voice says it doesn't matter if they don't know that these other programs exist, because I'm with you. I'm also often shocked I'll discover a new podcast or a new person teaching similar things that I never knew about. They have this huge business, huge platform, but there's a little gremlin. Or maybe it's not a gremlin and it's like a legitimate integrity flag that says it doesn't matter. If not even just my pivot podcast community or people already in my orbit, anyone who's new and lands at. Maybe I'm launching something. It doesn't matter. If they didn't already know about it, I know about it. I'm doing this research, I see what's out there and there are times where I, I look at what someone else is building. I'm like, this is just. Even if it's like closely related, I don't know, I just still have a small voice that's like, is it more an integrity for me to just send them there? But it is true that I know I would teach it in a different way. And there's no possible way that all of our content, even if I'm teaching pivot to profit, like assist systems based approach to building your ideal small business or like solopreneur based business, which is the course that I'm kind of creating simply because I want to extract everything I've learned in eight years of building an online business and just get them down and share the systems and shortcuts that I have. But I get self conscious because I'll read business books that are sort of at the higher level of people who've even built businesses to sell, they've sold them for lots of money. Those are the people that have these like, crazy confidence, complex, smarter systems. So there's. I also think maybe it's a sage teacher learner situation where I'm always aware of how much more I have to learn and I don't focus as much on what I can already be teaching. Or at least I have to get myself over the hurdle of confidence to say, no, teach this exactly as it is. It's okay if other people have even more robust or detailed lessons. That was a very long explanation. But you're now inside the class. I grapple, Yes.

I grapple with the same exact thing. I mean, because we both, you and I, like, we operate in integrity. We want to create the best results for our clients as possible. And I think both of us are aware of the fact that there's other geniuses in the world, like there's other people that are doing things really, really well. But you have to remember that.

What if that person who has that goal to do whatever the thing is that you're, that you're creating, what if they just don't resonate with that other person? I mean, I think about entrepreneurs that are kind of maybe on the. I don't know how I want to phrase this, there's entrepreneurs that have completely different personalities than I do, that teach brand archetypes.

Yes.

And in the Beginning it kind of weirded me out a little bit. And to be honest, like, I still do. Like, I focus, I focus on staying in my lane, especially when it comes to brand archetypes, because I want to make sure that it's coming from like my universal downloads and the things that I'm recognizing so that I can filter it through my experience and not be influenced by other people. But then I also remind myself, like, the people that resonate with her, they're not going to resonate with me. So if I don't show up, that subset of the population that's out there that needs to learn about this, to step into the best version of their brand isn't going to want to because they're not going to resonate with that particular teacher facilitator. So it, it is up to me to show up and be myself.

That is so key. You said it and you had me at universal downloads. Love it.

Yes, yes. I've been such a, like, oh gosh, I've been such a left brain person for my entire life. I have just recently got into some of the more like woo.

Areas, if you will. And I'm just loving it. Oh, I like the magic.

And you're so right. Like, I believe we can all tap into this universal wisdom, the collective consciousness. I know you reference and young Carl Jung was a huge part in creating archetypes and these that we have. And he talks about the collective unconscious. But I believe we have a collective, collective conscious kind of super net that if we tap in, we can understand. And I've talked about this with a lot of the episodes with Penny Pierce that I'll put in the show, not notes. We have access to tap into what the world needs, what our community needs, how we can uniquely serve it. And I love what you just said. And you're helping. You're like hammering over my head, which I needed. I'm so happy I'm talking to you today. And in this moment, I needed to be just hit over the head with this hammer again and again, which is that even two people teaching what seems like the exact same material, they could have totally different personalities. And it's so true that I've seen that where I'm kind of turned off by a certain personality type and then another one's really resonant and that I think because it's my left brain side that just can't wrap itself around the fact that. But the lesson plan is the same, but the course outline is the same, but it's this intangible quality of a person that you've helped reflect again on this podcast. And I hope for everyone listening you're finding this as helpful as I am, that that transcends the lesson plan and the material itself and the topic itself.

Yes, it's all of the context, right? Like the context is what makes us absorb the lesson. Or not because it can be the exact same information, but a different experience or a different teacher, a different story or a different analogy or metaphor. All of those things are going to land differently with different people. And it's one of the things that I naturally wasn't great at, especially like being this kind of like left brained personality type A ambitious, like, let's just be the best. There's actually not a best. Like there's just a best fit in that situation because of the context.

So many tweetables. If I was still tweeting actively, I would have had so many tweetables.

Is anybody tweeting actively?

I don't know. Yeah, that's a good question. I realize I was only going there to tweet, never to read tweets, and I thought that's not very nice. Nice. It's not a very nice way to be on a social media platform. Okay, this has been so fun. Before we wrap up, just tell us about three years in Italy. Were you running your business? You have. I know you're married. You have two little ones. How did you make that work? And. And three years. That's just so incredible.

Thank you. It was the best experience. So we moved there when my second child, my daughter was six weeks old and, and knew nobody. My husband was in the military, he's now separated and he was working for NATO, which gave us the opportunity to move there. But Naples is this. There's a quote in Italian and I don't remember the Italian, but it essentially says that Naples is the city that's a beautiful woman with dirty feet. Like, it's just like this chaotic, loud, messy, but then also like warm and like seeped in tradition. And the food is the best in Italy. I will stand behind that. And it was just the coolest experience. So I was running my business from home. The Internet there was really, really challenging. So I didn't have the opportunity to do a lot of podcasts like this, which I missed. But I was able to work from anywhere, which is the coolest.

It's so funny, that description of dirty feet, because my mom took us on a trip to Europe when we were younger. We stayed in Naples, Italy, and they would Retar the streets every night. So every morning we're waking up to the smell of like pizza and tar. To this day, if I went there and smelled that tar smell, it would jog so much for me. And I also remember when I was working from Bali for a month, I would tell coaching clients this call might drop right in the middle of it. And I was so thankful for the grace with that some of them showed because it happened. I, I was leading a webinar for 30 people and the Internet cut out on the whole island.

And yeah, and coaching calls, you don't know you're in some powerful, profound moment and then boom, it's that. So it's definitely part of the travel situation.

Yes, yes. Yeah, I, I comment regularly. Like sometimes I don't know how people actually like travel, like do the nomad thing and, and do the online business thing because it was hard enough just having a home base internationally which you experienced as well. But worth every frustration.

Absolutely. This has been so joyful. I can't thank you enough, Kay, for reaching out in the first place and just the wisdom that you've shared. And selfishly, I got a lot of coaching myself out of this. So any podcaster is just lucky to have you on their show to have these conversations. I'd love for you to share where people can find you if they want to keep in touch. And one piece of homework, one next step that you would have people take.

Thank you so much for having me, Jenny. This has been incredible. It truly did feel like sitting down with an old friend. So as somebody who has been interviewed on podcasts before, it doesn't always feel that way. So you're doing an incredible, incredible job.

I agree. I think we're soul friends, soul sisters from another time. It's as if we've known each other a very long time and I hope we can continue this friend worship IRL.

Absolutely. So people can find me@kputnam.com your piece of homework is easy. Just go take the brand quiz. This isn't completely self serving. You can even pass by the lead magnet if you don't want to get another email newsletter in your inbox. But you do get extra resources that way and just lean into it like, like, like who am I when I'm being my best and see if there's an answer that is reflected back to you there.

So good. And I love the transparency. Like PS you can opt out of the lead magnet. Like that's always, that's always how I've been for so long. The Pivot Toolkit. There was no email capture like my friend Jonathan and mentor. He's he always says on his site there's no bribe to join this tribe. Join if you like it, if you enjoy enjoyed this interview. I hope you want to stick around on Pivot list and K's email. Like that's what I love is when you're so you and you add so much value. I'm happy to sign up for for those people's newsletters. I actually want to know what they have to say week after week. Imagine, imagine the difference of people being like I don't want to miss a single thing you say versus bribing them to join the tribe.

Yes, I probably missed out on a lot of leads if you will, but those people weren't right.

I feel the same way. Amazing. And last time we have so many cool links, including on my cashmere tracksuit that are going in the show notes as well as the PDF we mentioned of K's 12 brand archetypes, the overview and the demand triggers. So head on over to pivotmethod.com brandality B R A N D A L I t y pivotmethod.com.

Okay. Thank you again so much for being here and for this wonderful conversation.

Thank you so much. Danny.

Thanks so much for listening to this episode of the Pivot podcast. Make sure you don't miss an episode or my insider tips, that and templates by signing up for Pivotlist, a curated twice monthly newsletter where I share the inside scoop on what I'm reading, watching, listening to and the latest tools I'm geeking out on. Sign up@pivotmethod.com pivotlist get show notes from this episode@pivotmethod.com podcast and connect with me on Twitter ennyblake.

Remember, build first, then your courage will follow. Hasn't it always.