140: How to License Your IP (Intellectual Property)

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The thing that's important to keep in mind with licensing is is less is more. Less is more. You don't want to have a really complex training that you need to train the trainer over six weeks and three hours a day for some boot camp long intricate thing. And this surprised me when I was building out the pivot licensing programs like how simple the organization doesn't want you. They don't want their trainers to have to spend more time than necessary and you want to make it easy that anyone can teach it. So therefore it actually stays really simple and what brings it to life are those trainers unique stories.

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By far the number one Can I pick your brain request topic that I tend to attract is can you share a little bit more about licensing? How you do it? What? What is it? What are you actually delivering to these companies? How on earth are you charging so much and how can I do the same in my business? I've been a little bit reluctant to do too much public sharing about this just because I don't really feel that I have it figured out. For at least seven years now, I've put my mind to figuring it out, but it still tends to feel opaque. I don't know if I just got lucky with a few clients. I don't necessarily want to become the licensing expert teacher. My friend Tor Pamela Slim is working on all kinds of programs to help you get better at licensing. So I'll share more as I know about those rolling out. But nonetheless, you know me, I'm not big on repeating myself and I don't love having my brain picked. So I figure I do love sharing and I will happily share what's working and what I've figured out. Just with the caveat that this is not the end all be all. I'm just sharing one strategy that has worked for me and what I've cobbled together from mentors and fellow business owners who are doing licensing of their own in their own ways. And I'll share what I can with you here today. I also share a lot more of this level of detail around things that I'm not ready to talk about publicly in the private BFF community that exists for a reason. And part of that reason is that it's my sandbox where I feel safe sharing things I'm building in the moment, how I'm thinking about things. I'm very open about open sourcing templates, tools that I can share there. So I would ask that if you have follow up questions, if you're really interested in leveraging your IP as a thought leader, potentially as an author, I think that is a good jumping off point for what we're going to talk about today. Join us in bff. It will be worth your while and that's really where you can get a lot of your follow up questions on this answered. So that's@itsfreetime.com BFF I would love to see you in there. That's where we play around with a lot of topics like this one. Before I really dig into the meat of this topic, I also wanna let you know that this is gonna be really robust. Show Notes There's a couple conversations that I've had on the Free Time podcast with Lee LeFever, Mike Michalowicz, John Jantz, all of those wonderful fellas have implemented licensing in their business in different ways and in ways different than what I'm going to share in this episode. Also, I mentioned Pamela Slim. She interviewed me for her show. It was episode number five, kicking off her brand new podcast, the Widest Net. I shared a lot about licensing there too, of the logic why it's part of my business model. And then in an earlier episode of FreeTime 122, I shared my sources of recurring revenue and that's where I shared that licensing is about 60% of my revenue and it's just chunky because it tends to come in. I bill my licensing on an annual recurring basis. To that end, I recently caught up with a friend who I hadn't seen in a while. And finally when I said how my business works, he's like, oh, all this time I was wondering how the heck you make it in New York City all off of an author's salary. There's no way, you know, if I haven't sold mega millions of copies of books. He had no clue how I was Making it in New York City so I can confirm, yes, licensing is a big part of what enables me to live in New York and also be the breadwinner of my family. For me, though, licensing is not just about the money, it's also the most easeful, joyful way to scale ip. That's what I find so attractive about it, is that rather than me running around the planet being the bottleneck for organization to leverage materials that I've created, primarily Pivot and now free time with licensing, they are empowered to roll out these programs globally within their companies, without me getting in the way of that and gumming up the works. This is from a book that I'll put in the show notes called the New and Complete Business of Licensing. The term licensing typically means any transaction in which the owner of intellectual property grants another party the right to use some such intellectual property, typically in exchange for some form of consideration or payment. Absent the grant of such a right or license, the other party's use of this IP would be considered an infringing use. Thus the license constitutes a defense to infringement. Licensing is therefore the monetization of an existing asset. IP can take many forms, including musical works, literary works, artwork, drawings, inventions, discoveries, designs, patents, trademarks, names, logos, industrial designs, even celebrity rights. People can license their name, let's say Jennifer Lopez to a perfume company and she's going to take a percentage of every bottle that sells within the realm of content creators. And I really do use the term thought leaders here because it's important that you have created IP that has a brand and has a reputation. For example, in my earliest days at Google, I remember the two main programs that everybody was going gaga about and wanted to take were Getting Things Done by David Allen and Managing youg Energy by Tony Schwartz. Sure we did have David and Tony come in and give maybe an authors at Google Talk, but by the time they leave Google at that time still wanted to roll out this content, their ip, globally across the organization and make it easy so that as many Googlers as possible could experience. I'm very fortunate that they also selected Pivot as their global career development framework. So they've been a big client of mine and a dream client for many years now. What that means is that again, it's not dependent on me being there delivering anything at all. And my partnership with Google is very open and flexible. So any Googler can pick up the material and teach any other Googler the Pivot method and the Pivot Framework applied to different ways and to different audiences. What's also special about that is that there's no bottleneck of me having to do a train the trainer. So we'll get into some of the mechanics of licensing. I'm getting ahead of myself. This is part of the reason I haven't podcasted on this, because it feels like trying to boil the ocean a little bit. The reason I started to get interested in licensing in the first place. I did have mentors like Pamela Slim and Michael Bungay Stanier who had been talking about it, and I could just see that this was around 2015 that I started to get really interested and that I wanted to release my next book Pivot with Scale in mind. I did not want to be the bottleneck the way that I was when Life After College came out. Because what happened was as I went around marketing Life after college and speaking to organizations, if I needed a break, the whole business would grind to a halt. I became the bottleneck because people were either hiring me to speak or they were hiring me as their coach. And either way it depended on my time, presence and energy. And that was really tiring because as I've now learned, even 10 years after that I really go in waves where sometimes I can be much more public facing and connecting with people and other times I need a ton of retreat recharging and reemerging with something new. Both Pam and MBS were so generous with me of helping me understand different aspects of all this. So nothing that I'm sharing today. I didn't invent any of this myself. I was just committed to building a business that could at least make the IP available to licensing. I didn't know the first thing about how to land clients or how to price them. I just knew that I wanted to try and that I wanted to get out of the way from speaking with other colleagues. There are four types of licensing. If you're licensing IP in the way that I am. Again, if you're a thought leader type, I don't even know the right term. There are four types and I only do one of them. So to give you the menu, let's call these audience types. First, you can license your IP to a company. So I mentioned licensing Pivot to Google. A second option is that you could license your IP1 to many. So you could license your IP to any consultants or trainers, coaches who want to do that. So for example, John Jan's Duct Tape Marketing Mike Michalowicz with Profit First Professionals Brene Brown with her book Daring Greatly Anyone who met certain qualifications could apply to be one of their trainers basically for that material, or if you've ever gone through Myers Briggs certification training, cliftonstrengths, any of those, in a way, you become a licensed practitioner of that material. So I think of that as a one to many model. The third option is you could license your IP to training companies. For example, especially this works if you're trying to go global. So for example, sometimes I've gotten the request, can you lead pivot training in French? But I don't speak French and I've thought about training up Michael, my husband, who does. But the other thing I could do is give a French training company, or L and D as they're sometimes referred to learning and development. I could give them the exclusive rights to be the facilitators of Pivot in the French language or in the French market. So again, either language or geolocation, or I could license one of the brands to a company in Australia and say, you hereby have exclusive rights to fulfill and even land new business in the Australian market. And then you would give me, you know, 15% of any work that you land or deliver. The fourth major way that I've seen recently is the one that Mike Michalowicz employs, and I'll put some links to episodes where we've talked about this in the show Notes, where he sees himself as the shareholder of IP that he creates. His purpose, his mission in life is eliminating entrepreneurial poverty. He does that through writing books and he also will do speaking events and things like that. But he has now developed a model where when a new book is coming out, he has an exclusive licensee of that book's IP who then builds the business around it. So for example, his book Clockwork, there's a licensee who gets to operate the Run like Clockwork business that accompanies it. So they fulfill all the training, it's their business. And Mike is a partial owner in that business. So he keeps building out his portfolio by licensing each subsequent book to a single person who then owns, owns and operates the related business. Because again, he's out there drumming up interest by marketing these books and cross promoting them. But he doesn't necessarily want to run a training company and certainly not one that has 10 different tracks based on each subject of the books that he's writing. We could throw in a bonus fifth type and that would be something like LinkedIn learning. So I've created five courses now about Pivot in some form or another, whether it's figuring out your next move for individuals, how to have career conversations for Managers even coaching new hires through the Pivot method or coaching new managers through the Pivot method. In a way that's a form of licensing because LinkedIn is licensing these ideas from me, or at least we've collaborated on that, and then that can also scale globally. So any company that has a LinkedIn learning license, their team members or employees can watch any course that they want in the entire library and then I get royalties depending on how many people watch the videos each month. The two types of licensing that most interest me, that are at my intersection of revenue, Ease and Joy are the first and the last. Licensing to a single company one at a time and doing the LinkedIn learning path. The reason that I primarily only license to one company at a time is is that I'm really clear on who I want to be my client. This is important because each of these different types of licensing have their own pros and cons and partnerships and intricacies considerations. I was pretty clear early on, even though it can be very profitable. I did not want to license my content one to many because I didn't want to support 100 pivot trainers or a thousand or two thousand. I actually I don't want fellow coaches and trainers to be my customer base in that way. I love collaborating with other business owners in community. That's the private BFF community. I love that. That's super joyful. I love serving them as a core part of my business, but I didn't want to feel responsible for ramping up 2,000 trainers, helping them find work, making sure they weren't competitive with each other in different markets. That just hasn't interested me. But of course it can be really profitable because then you're marketing to other professionals and then their help scaling the work through their businesses and their contacts and you might have them pay an annual membership fee of some kind, Even if it's $2,000 a year to stay listed in your directory of certified professionals. You know by now if you've been listening to this show for a while that I'm a big fan of Ease, Joy and delightfully tiny teams. I just have not yet to date that this could change, but haven't wanted the complexity of navigating the launch model for that type of licensing or being responsible for engaging that whole community. What I love most about working with one company at a time is that I can work with a small handful and have really abundant recurring revenue in my business. So it would only take about five clients, maximum 10. And then my team and I were only supporting 10 clients for really, again, really robust revenue. And it's not just about the money. What I love is thinking about working with this small handful of corporate partners who then get to scale this material in their way according to their internal norms and needs and culture and language and so on. I also find it to be a really natural extension from a company bringing me in to speak. Let's say it starts with a one hour keynote, but then they bring me back and then we're doing another workshop and then this other team is interested. At that point, the internal demand, the momentum snowball, starts growing to where we can easily say, well, if you are interested in scaling this globally, let's talk about licensing. The reason that I think it's helpful to start with an existing brand or IP that you've marketed is that you want to distinguish yourself as unique. If my IP was super generic and not that interesting, not extra helpful, not that compelling, it didn't have a strong brand around it, it wasn't known in the market, then these companies could easily just create it themselves internally. The reason that they would license a program is that they say, wow, this is really resonant. We love how this is done. It's already built. We can get it off the shelf.

One of the big mistakes that I made, although it did help me get to where I'm at now, was creating a bespoke licensing package for each client, meaning I would get on weekly brainstorming calls. We were doing all of it together because I was building the licensing as we went custom for those early companies. Then I quickly realized this is no good because any next licensing client, it's just going to create 20, 25 more hours of work for me. So I dedicated all of, I want to say 2019 to rebranding all the material, creating something truly off the shelf so that the next company who reached out to me about licensing, we wouldn't be on weekly brainstorm calls. I wouldn't be creating this bespoke package for them. It would already exist.

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Many people ask what are you actually delivering? What are the deliverables? Here I will tell you what mine are and why these pieces are helpful. But again, this is just my package. I have no clue what other people are doing and what's helpful when I'm delivering. Licensing to a company it includes some combination of these things. First and foremost there's the book. It doesn't mean that they're buying a bunch of books, but the book exists and that can be part of the assets that go with licensing that they might want to give out to team members or employees. It's there, it's available and it's known in the market. I also created a workbook. So with Pivot I have the Pivot workbook that's available@pivotmethod.com workbook. I don't mind when individuals purchase it, but I created it specifically for companies. And by the way, one of my licensing options is to license the workbook alone as a self guided career development toolkit. So even if they don't want to do the whole kit and caboodle Pivot licensing, they could license just the workbook. And over the years I've thought more and more about pricing. Alan Weiss and my friend Lindsay always reminds me to have a good better best pricing model. So with something like the workbook, if they were only licensing the workbook, I might price it based on the size of their organization but also a certain price for having it off the shelf as is no customization. And I might charge double if they want to white label it and customize it, remove certain pages, add in certain exercises of their own. So I would charge more to white label the workbook, but it could also be run just a la carte off the shelf in terms of the full on licensing package. That would then include the slides with detailed speaker notes about how to facilitate participant handouts for the end participants, a quiz, some kind of pre course quiz or assessment that's really good for tracking participants because it's really tricky to actually track how many end users or end participants the organization is sending through the training. It also includes handouts and a really robust train the trainer guide. Some people also include onboarding videos, short video series for those trainers. So imagine Pivot trainers within an organization. They might go through a train the trainer session with me. Maybe that's two days or a day and a half where I'm guiding them with everything they might need to know. But I'm also open to organizations doing this as a self study. Once we get rolling, once we're a couple years in. So either way, the way that I know how many trainers I'm ramping up is how many people get that very robust train the trainer guide. That's everything they could ever know and so much more for delivering the training. Some people will also create a video library for participants. So I mentioned the Pivot workbook. Well, we've gotten requests in the past. Could you also do a series of five or 10 videos that would go with the workbook that people could watch? The reason I haven't created that is that I have essentially that through LinkedIn learning. So I feel like the whole reason that I was really happy to partner with LinkedIn Learning is that those video libraries exist and LinkedIn Learning does such a good job producing them. They're beautiful, they're concise, they have graphics. They're just very, very professionally done. So they kind of have check that box for me. I don't think I could do it much better myself, but if an organization insisted here again, I would charge at least two prices. One would be, you pay a certain amount for me to create and film these videos, but I also get to keep them, and they're not going to be specific to your organization. And then the much higher price would be, I'm creating a set of 10 videos custom with you for you, and those videos are yours and I won't reuse them. That brings us to the next inevitable question. How are you pricing this? From my research, there are two main ways that you could price a licensing program. One is pricing per end participant, and you would also price per trainer who goes through the material. So let's say I run a train, the trainer. I'm ramping up 20 trainers within your organization. That's going to be a certain fixed cost. In the past, I was charging 3,500, but that was pre pandemic. So who knows? Things can change. That's why I don't like sharing too much pricing on these podcasts, because I'm always playing with things. But pre pandemic it was $3,500 per trainer, minimum of 10 trainers. Because I need it to be enough people to justify me going in person and doing this for usually up to two days. And then you would also want to track how many people go through the training. And so you could charge per participant. So for example, $197 per participant or 297 or 97. Part of this is crunching the numbers of the value of your program to the organization. And with licensing, you're either going to just pay per participant per end person with a certain minimum. For example, minimum 100 participants. Because I never want to be in the business of ramping up a client. And then we do all this work and then only 10 participants go through that year. That's not going to make a lot of sense. So there has to be some minimum number. I will tell you, tracking participants is very, very tricky because companies will either have their own internal lms, that's a learning management system where they're tracking, but they might not always want to share that data publicly with you. Or even if it's been in my contracts, it's really hard to get someone to actually send me those numbers on a regular basis. The second thing that makes it hard is that not all organizations have an lms. So then it's really back of the napkin how many people are going through. And that can get kind of frustrating. And yet these companies are often resistant to using external third party tools to track data. So this gets tricky. And I'm not a big fan of pricing per participant for these reasons. I just feel not only do I not want to deal with the mishigos of this kind of intricate level tracking, I also want to incentivize them spreading the material as far and wide through the organization as possible. So if we charge by participant, they might try to keep participants under a certain number to keep their costs below a certain number, the way I like to charge. But this is harder to land clients in this way or you need to have more trust and value built up before doing this way is unlimited. I like to recommend that we start with a train the trainer. So yes, there's going to be some initial budget for me to train those first group of trainers really well within your organization. But then I prefer to just be on an annual recurring subscription. Unlimited use, as in, please spread this far and wide within your company. And over the years I've gotten more and more flexible. Like it can be an Hour long lunch and learn. It can be something that you slot into a team meeting or it can be a half day off site. I actually want to make my material as flexible as possible. I want them to roll it out to as many people as possible. And I want neither of us to have to obsess over exactly how many people are going through at any given time. Of course, it's still really helpful to know how far the reach is. What's the impact? There are lots of ways to measure the success of programs like this, and that's where we would look at Kirkpatrick's levels of evaluation. So level one, did people enjoy the training? Would they recommend it to a colleague? Level two, knowledge retention, did they learn something? Level three, behavior change. Are they changing their behavior like with Pivot? Are they having more conversations with their manager? Are their scores improving on their annual employee feedback survey? Level 4 is results to the business. So for example, with free time, if I were to license that and I help your team free up 5% of their time to do more of their best work, that makes the biggest impact on the company, what is that worth? So it's really showing the results to the organization in terms of revenue or greater efficiency, things like that.

One way, if you want a price per person, one way that I've seen people do this is creating an online library or having a physical packet of materials just like my train. The trainer guide is almost always given as a physical. It's really thick. That's why the one I talk about is this really thick, robust guide. But if you do, per participant Michael Bungay Stanier box of crayons they always had really beautiful packets of materials. And so they knew exactly how many people were going through training because every time one of their trainings was being run, they were also mailing out this kit of materials that are beautiful and well branded. You wouldn't want to deliver it without it and you couldn't. The materials get written into the facilitation guides.

I mentioned the assessments or pre quiz, these are a little trickier because not everyone does them every time. But if you integrate a quiz or some kind of assessment into the actual facilitator's agenda for delivering the material, you'll also get a better sense of how many people are going through the program. Or you might have a whole library of resources online that people can access after they go through training. So you want to make sure that and you tell the organization you want to make sure every single person gets access to this library. Dan Roam does this with his Napkin Academy. He has a whole bunch of videos and resources. Or I know some people will enroll participants in a 30 day sprint so that they maintain momentum after going through the session in person within their company. So you'd want to encourage them that then they sign up and that's how you track how many people went through the training. Maybe you even build a slide. In another caveat, I've done this. I've built in slides with a QR code, let us know you were here or share a five minute feedback. But you just don't know because sometimes the trainers think that they can skip that slide or oh, they didn't get to it, they didn't have time or not everyone in the room takes it. Some people in the room leave early. It just gets a little dicey. So I much prefer to bill, like I said, annually recurring at a certain time of year. Now it does make that time of year really nerve wracking for me. I'm always just freaking out that I never want to count any chickens before they hatch. But so far it's been okay. And again, I feel that with the unlimited use within an annual recurring subscription, companies are more incentivized to make the most of it and also have it be flexible enough that they can leverage the material to really fit their needs.

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At this point, you might also be feeling a little bit of hesitation to let your precious material out of your hands. Because I know I did. At the beginning I was really worried, especially with pivot. I felt like, well, but you know, I have so much depth of knowledge of this material. And I wrote the book and I have all these stories. What's it going to be like if I let other people teach it? This is probably one of the harder things to let go of. But it's been so rewarding getting more and more comfortable with that. I can't tell you how fun it is to hear Pivot being taught in another language other than my own, to see how internal trainers within an organization customize the material. The stories they offer are often much more relevant because they're still working at this company. It gives people in these other organizations some added energy for their role because maybe they get to be doing these types of trainings part time. And it's really just cool because the material actually evolves. The thing that's important to keep in mind with licensing is less is more, less is more. You don't want to have a really complex training that you need to train the trainer over six weeks and three hours a day for some really long bootcamp, long, intricate thing. And this surprised me when I was building out the pivot licensing programs, like how simple the organization doesn't want you. They don't want their trainers to have to spend more time than necessary. You want to make it easy that anyone can teach it. So therefore it actually stays really simple. And what brings it to life are those trainers unique stories. So part of my train the trainer process involves having those trainers come up with a story or an anecdote about themselves or someone else within the company. And I might have them go through the process of saying, reverse engineer a few of your past pivots, the one you've done internally and the one that brought you to this company. Think of a personal story, a struggle, an anecdote for the plant stage, Scan the pilot stage and the launch stage. Think about something you're currently struggling with as it relates to mapping what's next. So a lot of what I do with Train the Trainer is not teaching them the most precise, perfect way to deliver every single concept on every single slide. It's making the slide deck easy enough, broad enough again, so it can be used in many different contexts, and so that the trainer themself can bring the material to light and to life without overly obsessing about whether they're getting it right. One of the biggest messages that I say when I do train the trainer is you can't get this wrong. Like, just with the little prep you're doing, you can read the book to refresh on any of these concepts. I mean, of course, I don't want them to completely change the meaning of anything that I've created. It would be weird if they changed the entire pivot method or the order of the steps. That wouldn't make sense, but that their work is guiding participants through an experience and bringing it to life with their own stories, their own lessons learned, their own ways to be successful within the organization.

If I were you and I'd listened this far, you'd perhaps one of my last big questions would be how on earth do I land clients for this? This all sounds great, Jenny, but how do I actually land this business? A couple things I would say one, just wrap your head around it, wrap your mind around it as a possibility. Two, you can create a path. I did this on Pivot and I need to do this for free time. I created@pivotmethod.com rollout a path that shows potential clients. Here are all the ways you can engage with me and to take this material from a kickoff into full on scale throughout your organization. Maybe you don't have a licensing program yet, but if you include it in a roadmap and you start to include it in your conversations, if you're somebody that does any work at all with companies, you can say I'd love to come in to do this workshop or lunch and learn or kick off keynote. And also just to let you know, if it goes well, we can talk about some ways to scale this globally within your organization. So this is where I'm a big fan of acting as if not lying, not pretending you know something you don't, but acting as if you're ready for a licensing client even if you're not 100% sure of the details yet. And there's often enough legal back and forth just getting the contracts drafted and ready and going back and forth that in that time you could double down if you at least already had the ip, a method or a framework. If you already had slides you had been delivering, if you already have some handouts you've given to participants, you'd be halfway there. I've hired professional slide designers to help with the workbook and the slide decks. I'm a big fan of that, you know. And I've done a lot of work hiring overall brand strategy too for pivot and free time. So not only do I have brand strategy at the outset, but then I'll hire someone to do the slides and workbook design. But other than that, there's a lot you can do pretty quickly once it comes time to deliver the materials Technicality of delivery. You could store them all in a single Dropbox folder or Google Drive. I try to think about eliminating spawning a gazillion versions of something. So I like when there's a single source of truth like one slide deck in Google Slides that all trainers will be using. I don't love thinking about each company has now a hundred versions of a slide deck that each trainer has customized. That does not make me happy because that's really hard to update and that can get kind of out of control. That's the other reason I have not yet wanted to go down the route of one to many certification, let's say training 2000 pivot trainers. Because as one of my mentors said to me, you can't unscramble the eggs. So once 2000 people have my materials and every last detail about how to facilitate. You can't unscramble the eggs. You cannot get all those materials back. That's now out in the world. So I've been a little more close to the vest because I do want to make sure that not only do they roll out well at the outset, but that I'm able to help these organizations maintain fewer versions, but updates to the material and things like that. The other thing I wanted to share on pricing that a mentor helped me think through is thinking about what would your training cost if they were to send one person through a training that you offer, how much would that be? Maybe it's 297, maybe it's 997. And then you ask them how many people are in the company or how many people would you want to roll this out to? And they tell you 10,000 employees or 100,000 employees? Well, now you have your a la carte pricing. 100,000 employees times 97, that's a lot of money. Or here's a flat rate for unlimited use for the next year. And you could even do pricing where it's a higher price for one year and a discounted price for a three year bundle. I have yet to leverage that, but I've gotten that advice and I think it's really sound. That would encourage them signing up for an upfront payment at a three year lower price. But that's still much less expensive than that individual a la carte pricing. So that's a way to kind of back the napkin estimate and that we're still talking about costs. If we go back to Alan Weiss and his Million Dollar consulting proposal strategy, he would have you price entirely on value. So what is the value to the organization. I often make the comparison that employee turnover, it's estimated that it costs 30% of somebody's salary. So so if someone's salary is Even, we say $100,000 and it costs $30,000 to replace them. If even 10 people stay as a result of 10,000 going through this training, that's worth this to the organization. Or maybe if even 30 people stay or are more engaged in their role as a result of going through, here's what that's worth. And then Alan Weiss would always say that the value should be 10x whatever the price ends up being. So I'm probably saying this in a kind of confusing way. It's better to just read one of his books for more on that. And I also mentioned at the start that Pamela Slim, I know that she's developing a bit more on licensing because it's something that her community has been asking for a lot. So she's going to be doing more education, I think, around all this. So just keep an eye on what she's doing and that's where I'll wrap things up for now. I hope you found this helpful. I know it's a lot. I know it's overwhelming. It is for me too. I don't have any answers. I just have what I've tried, what's worked so far and I'm always running experiments on this. So if you want to start building this out in your business with the support of fellow heart based business owners and be able to ask questions, I do a monthly Q and A. We also do a monthly Brilliance Barter Hot Seats where you can talk things through in pop up Mastermind groups, join us in BFF. That's itsfreetime.com BFF and if you want to make building out licensing, being ready for a licensing client even if you're not 100% sure where they're going to come from, if you want to make that a focus in 2023, come on in, join us. Because I'm not going to do too much more on the podcast. Most likely it's not the area that I'm focused on in my business of teaching this to other business owners just because I don't feel my expertise is totally there, I could just share what I know. But if you want that support and accountability and brainstorming with other people who are thinking about this kind of thing again, join us in bff. That's where you can get a lot more of these types of conversations. That's itsfreetime.com BFF. Thanks so much for listening everybody and good luck with any and all licensing experiments.

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