141: Be a Free Range Human—Busting Business Myths with Marianne Cantwell

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What's next? This is a question we're all having to ask and answer more frequently. I'm Jenny Blake, your host of the Pivot podcast and author of the Only Move that Matters is your next one.

For show notes from this episode, visit pivotmethod.com podcast if Change is the only constant, then let's get better at it. Here we go.

Hello everybody. Welcome back. I am thrilled to be here today with Marianne Cantwell, who is an expert on creating a free range career and a successful work life that fits who you really are and the life you want. She is the founder of Free Range Humans and a leading TEDx speaker. Thousands have done her courses on finding your thing and making it work for you and today we're discussing the second edition of her book Beginning Be a free range human, escape the 9 to 5 Create a life you love and still pay the bills. And I have to say I'm extra excited because Marianne and I have been crossing paths for years, if not almost a decade of doing this solopreneur. Be your own boss, but do it in your way and don't just follow what the masses are doing online. And I've known about her for so long. I'm just delighted to have you. Marianne, welcome to the show.

Thank you Jenny. I'm so excited to finally be here.

This book is gold and I was cracking up at even one of the chapter titles is you don't have to have shiny hair. I mean, I'm paraphrasing what if I'm not a shiny haired, always confident entrepreneur?

That's my favorite chapter title by the way.

Yes, and I'm guilty of having shiny hair headshots. But I thought of you because for the recent momentum launch, the picture at the very top of the page is from my new photos and you can see my frizzy hair and I thought I am leaving that for Marianne.

I love that full natural curls. There's frizz. That's what curly hair does. It has frizz. And I even told my beloved photographer Mark Hanauer, who's been Taking portraits since I was a baby. He grew up with my mom, but I told him specifically, please do not worry too much about retouching. If I have wrinkles, leave the wrinkles. If I have anything on my face, leave it. Like, I want to look my age. There's too much shine online. Just the lightest retouching is fine with me.

That's brilliant. I love that.

Yeah, I feel like it's just. That's something you seem to really stand for, is be yourself and don't fall into that compare and despair of the shine that we see in so much of free range or solopreneurship online.

Absolutely. And the thing I always think is that, you know, there's nothing wrong with the shine. There's nothing wrong with the person who genuinely, it's their thing. They have the best hair, they have the best headshots. Like, I have some pretty awesome photos, and I don't see anything wrong with that. I think where it starts to be a problem is where you described it so well there. If you're not that person and that isn't you in real life, or even when you're presenting or when you're at your best, to suddenly think, I have to be that person in order to have success, I think that's where the problem really starts to creep in. And the problem could be the opposite. So in other industries, as I'm sure you're very aware, there's a bit of a status associated with being the person who dresses the most casually, with being the person who doesn't care about appearance. But what if you are that person who is more shiny in that industry? And I think that what I really care about is people being able to step into their difference, step into the thing about them that is most true, regardless of what others are doing around you. And I think in our industry, the current thing is shiny, but it could be pretty much anything else.

I love what you're saying about step into your difference, and you're so right. It's not about disparaging shine for me. It's really around authenticity. It's like sometimes I know for sure that I'm in sweats and yoga clothes 90% of any given week. I was recently on a Pivot Insider Q and A call, and I, like, I showed them. I'm like, this is what you're seeing on the top. And I lifted up one leg, like kind of in a yoga pose. I'm like. And I have sweats on the bottom. Like, just to be able to be ourselves. And be real about what it's like. Because it can be really tiring to feel like every time I leave the house or I go out in public, I need to look like my headshots. That's almost an impossible standard. So we can. I, even in the past have found myself, I can compare even to myself, let alone anyone else.

It's interesting. I didn't think about this before, but as you're talking about photos, Absolutely right. I did a shoot where I got a bunch of photos on my website from where the photographer who's like super established in the online world, she's done Marie Folio, she's amazing. And we did this really great shoot in la, I think about a year or two years ago now. And as soon as she saw me, she was like, we're going to do it different with you. Because she does the shiny shots. Like she focuses on that. She goes, that's not like my stuff, it's glossy. But it's also very. It's playful and it's real. And it was really interesting. When you, you work with a real professional, be that in branding, be that in photography, you know the difference between someone who's at the top of their game because they actually who you're met you really are and how to represent that. Whereas I actually think a lot of what we're talking about in free range humans and in what you do, Jenny, is the idea that when you're trying to make it and you're trying to be enough, you're trying to not be too much, it's really easy to fall into the trap of going, there is a right way to do something. But what I've found over the years of being fascinated by top performers, what does it mean to be at the top of your game, is that that isn't how top performers actually act. They're coming from a place of how do represent myself and my brand in a way that is most true. I think that's the difference I'm most fascinated by.

Speaking of stepping into our difference, can you please read that fantastic Steve Jobs quote that you start the book with?

I absolutely can. I've got it right here in the book. So the opening quote of the book, before I write any of my words, is this. Life can be much broader once you discover one simple fact. Everything around you that you call life was made up by people that were no smarter than you. And you can change it, you can influence it, you can build your own things. The minute that you understand that, you can poke life, you can Mold it. Once you learn that, you'll never be the same again.

Steve Jobs, so good. And wow, you have the perfect audible voice. I could really see you reading very exciting children's books. And of course your book is coming.

Out soon, so thanks for that Jenny.

Great. Oh my gosh.

Wow.

That's going to be a whole nother talent that you bring to the table. You started. So the first edition of this book came out in 2013 and you and I both have been at this for a long time. I've been full time self employment since 2011 and I started really getting into the blog world same time as you. 2008, 2009. What has changed? What are the trends that you're seeing from the first edition of this book in 2013 to now as we round the corner into 2020?

Wow. I can't believe how short a period of time it's been because it's like another universe now. So for people who weren't active in this world, let's do a bit of a recap here. So when you and I started out, and I say this in the new intro to the book, there were not 10 top tips for becoming for dominating your niche. There were not a thousand different ads trying to show you this one clever formula that might let you quit your job and sit on a beach in Bali. And I know that because I was unfortunately one of those people who first went to Bali before it was cool, before there were co working spaces and you were figuring it out on the ground and I think that's a good place to start. When you and I started Jenny, we went into a field that didn't really exist. So I started this, I went, got into it completely. Well, quite accidentally I thought I was going to quit my job and do have a portfolio career. I was going to help people, I was going to consult in my old field, but also help people with their actual career. I had no idea I was going to help them quit their job and never have a job again, which is what happened. And I started doing that because there was such a call for it in the UK where I started out. No one was doing this, if you can believe that right now when you look at how much there is online. No one was doing this back then in the UK and only a few people were doing it in the us. And so I started out thinking, gosh, there's an amazing potential right now with all our technology, with the way that we can get a message out with so many other things for people who aren't Happy in corporate, who are high achievers, who are perfectionists, who think they have to keep toeing the line, but their personality really doesn't fit that long term, there's an opportunity to do their own thing that no one knows about because no one's talking about it. And that is the setting in which I started. So we were being creative. I remember making things up. I think the idea life on you, your terms. No one was even talking about that. I think I put it as a tagline on my website and then people started using it. So it was a creative space. Fast forward to today and it's the opposite now. Most people within our circles know that there is an option, even if they don't believe it's it's true for them. They at least know there's this movement, there are people doing their own thing. Right now you are more likely to find something that is a formula and a prescribed way of doing things than a creative endeavor. And I think there's pros and cons to this. The pro is it's great to be able to use stuff that people have done before and they've made the mistakes for you. So in a way we have it even easier now than before. But I think there is a downside to it, and that is if you have either started a side hustle or quit your job or switched up your old business in order to do something that really brings you alive, that you feel like you're not leaving a piece of yourself at the door anymore in order to get paid. It can be a little bit hard to do that when I'm seeing people literally exchange what I called it a job box for a business box, where they go from towing the line, showing up the certain time, having to be a sort of person pretending that they are different from where they are, squishing bits of themselves in comparisons, quitting their job and having a nicer life. But ultimately probably even more of the comparisons, even more of a sense of am I enough every day. And that wasn't there before because the comparisons weren't there. So on balance, I think it's good in one sense. But there's a lot. There's so much noise right now. I think that's the big thing. Isn't it so noisy out there?

Yeah, I'm really noticing the same thing, that there was this really open source spirit. Now, of course, this is like anyone, people who go to Bali now or who've lived there 20 years say it used to be, oh, this paradise. And before all the tourists Ruined it. Whether it's Burning man, which I've never been, but they're like, oh, it used to be good. South by Southwest. It used to be good and now it's terrible, you know, Anyway, so I'm just don't want to be too much of ragging on how, like how it used to be. But I felt it was very open source, collaborative Wild West. I agree with you. You're kind of making up the rules as you go along. It's almost inherently has to be kind of personal to you because there, as you said, there. There weren't even these massive online course marketplaces like skillshare, Udemy, let alone the entrepreneurs who are doing these big courses too. So. Yeah, and you say it so powerfully in the book. You said there wasn't a newsfeed full of perfect, shiny comparisons a click away. I watched a swath of formulas and systems for success sweep the Internet that led people to going from squishing themselves into one box in order to get PA only to find themselves in another box of someone else's making. You say I felt like I was suddenly at the center of and one of the accidental founders of a scene that I would never have chosen to be part of in that form. So I did something I never expected. I stepped away when I read that because I piloted a course in 2012 called build you'd Business and it was really successful. I had so much fun teaching it, but I stopped it. I actually stepped away because I said, well, I want to get more experience. I've only been doing it full time for a year. And even though I had a lot of value to teach, I stepped away. And in that time, I just watched. I would see people quit their job literally the day prior and launch a course on how to be an entrepreneur and run your own business. I'm like, but you've done it for one day.

It's sad because we are, you know, I definitely agree with you in that idea of everyone thinks it used to be great. And I wouldn't say that I think right now, the slightly sad thing is that these comparisons and this sort of very. I see it as a very adrenalized state that the industry's in, like a very adrenalized manic state. This is happening at the same time that we're actually in the best point in history for you to grow your own thing on your own terms. So I think we have to balance the two in a way because there's all this stuff has happened.

Bunch of money on A developer years ago to develop a membership site that now you can buy off the shelf for almost nothing. So, like, we're in such a great time. So I just think that all we need is a little bit more grounding, a little bit more grounding in, number one, who we are and number two, what we need for our situation. And I think that's what's really. And that's one reason I re released the book with all these updates, is that it's not that we're in like this terrible world at all. I think we're in an amazing world. The things that I dreamt of happening in terms of reach of people knowing about these options, they've happened. And now we need to play another game which is knowing our own compass, knowing how to make our own best decisions amid all the noise. And I think that's the conversation that's coming up next in the world we're moving in.

And I love how you break it down into the three main free range styles. So I would love for you to give us an overview. But before we move on, I just want to say, similar to you, I marvel every day at the fact that I can run almost my entire business from my phone. It is a miracle. Like 10 years ago we all were saying you can run a business from your laptop and that was revolutionary, that you could run an entire business from your laptop. And now it's from our phone. Like, it just blows my mind how much I can manage and check in and communicate with my team, even edit a podcast episode. I don't, I don't edit the audio on my phone, but I could. It's, it just, it is insane. And like you said, I recently switched to Kajabi as my membership platform, course delivery platform, and it's so robust, I cannot believe it saves hours and hours of my time and probably an entire team member, what tech can do these days. So it's, it's wild. It's really fun.

It's wonderful. It's so wonderful. And that's why, I guess before we move on, I just want to say that's why I'm so passionate about this, because we have such opportunity. So let's not mess that up by making the opportunity feel like a constraint, feel like a box, feel like we're not enough. I think.

That'S where I get really passionate about this.

I love it. And it's all over the book too. You're such a great advocate for doing things your way. Tell us about these three free range styles. And I know which one you are, but tell our listeners of course.

So this is a new update to the book and it's towards the end there's plenty of other stuff, but in this, this was based on an idea that I was looking at. And like you, Jenny, I was teaching some courses on building your own business and I'd been doing this for years. There was like you, a lot of demand. I was really committed to having the highest quality courses. But I started noticing something a little bit awkward and it was this. People would come through the courses and some of them would do super well. Some of them say would be less committed. Might not you be go through it in that same way? But there were these other group of people who were incredibly committed, who showed up all the time, who did the work and consistently got it wrong. And I just feel like you're highly intelligent. Some of them were like academics, incredibly intelligent people. And over years they would do my courses, they would do other people's and even some of them would do your courses. And yet they'd be struggling. And I would look at them and I got to become friends with some of these clients and I was like, it's not that they're silly, it's not that they're uncommitted. There's something just seems off and they can't seem to pull this off, even though they totally should. Anyway, the reason I got curious was this. I also had a bunch of data about people's personality profiles. Because we use a lot of profiling in free range humans, we use a couple of different approaches. I started getting curious about whether there was a correlation between different profiles, different personalities and outcomes. And there are 100% is and people are not talking about it. And this is why you have a bunch of people, often introverts, who try really, really hard and put a lot of money in and it sinks. And you also have a bunch of incredibly outgoing extroverts who are the life of the party, who can get people riled up and happy in person, but struggle online. And so I put all this together. I partnered with an old client of mine who's a personality expert who'd gone through my courses and processes. And you read this in the book. And she and I developed a thing called the free range styles, which basically is not a profile, it's a sort of a self identifying thing that breaks down attraction and specifically about attraction into three categories. So how do you naturally attract clients and income? That's the only question we asked. We didn't ask what's Your business model, we didn't ask you anything else is how does this person attract clients and income? And we worked out there were three styles for people who had thriving businesses. The first one is attractor. So the attractor is the person who is front of house. If you want to name big names in your industry that everyone knows of because they have a brand, that person's an attractor. Right? So that's the first thing their clients and income come because you know them and their brand.

Now, the interesting thing about attractors, Jenny, obviously you and I are attractors. That's kind of the, that's how people know about us. That's why they're here. That's why they're, they're, they're listening. The thing is, we're the minority. We think it's like 10% of people who are thriving, we're doing their own thing, are attractors. But we're also the most visible because the attractor can only attract by being visible. So in the book, it goes to a lot more detail. We call the attractor the magnet. They're the ones that people just like, gravitate to. Marie Fogle, amazing attractor. Right. But the thing is, there are a huge amount of other people thriving, loving what they're doing and making a full time income who are not attractors. And those are left out. So the other two profiles are connectors, and the connector is the most extroverted person. So attractors are not necessarily the biggest extroverts. Connectors are if you have a friend who knows everyone, right, who is like, as soon as you, you mentioned that you need, I don't know, a juggler, they're like, oh my gosh, I have two juggling friends. And you're like, how even, how do you know jugglers? And they're like, they just know everybody. And connectors are your know everyone friend. And they. In the book, we talk about how they do best. They do actually best through partnerships and a very different route.

And it's so funny because one would probably think the attractor is the extrovert. But you and I both know that's not true.

No, we're actually the extrovert.

Otherwise you and I would have met by now, right?

Connectors are brilliant. Like, oh my gosh, I partner with connectors all the time because I find them like, are magical beings. Everyone wants to be their friend and connect is. Here's the thing. So one of. In the book, I highlight one person, Selena Barker, who's a very close colleague of mine. She's a connector. You go and look at her website or whatever without this knowledge, you might be like, oh, she's an attractor, right? She has a lovely website, a lovely brand. Ask her where she gets her money from. This is where the difference with the styles, it's not about how you present, it's where your outcomes come. And as in the book, she's like, oh, I actually get my money through making friends with people who have followings through partnerships. So it can be very different. And anyway, we won't go on about that one. But the last one is trusted person. And a trusted person is usually the biggest of the introverts and they are the opposite to attractor. So if you're a trusted person, you will lose your power when you try to create a brand. You will lose your power when you try to create a brand. You will be almost like your power place is internal. It's through building one to one deep trust with others. And I think it's really important to know this and.

Something which I don't talk about because when I wrote the first edition of the book, I came from a place I didn't know any of this. So I assumed that the way I and my friends had had success was the only way. And so I said things in that first edition that I completely disagree with now. I said things like building a business through word of mouth, like, you're so inefficient. That is terrible advice for a trusted person. Actually, that's one of the best ways they can build a business. And if they focus on that in a smart, specific, process driven way, they will do super well. If I try to do that, that would be an absolutely terrible way for me to build a business. There's so many things, I think this is the point without like going to 100 bits of detail around, is that when we're looking for examples of people who are thriving in our field.

It'S very easy just to see a certain type of attractor. There's so many ways to be an attractor, but it's very easy to only see a certain type of attractor. And if that isn't exactly who you are and you try to follow that path, you can end up hitting a wall again and again and again.

Because you don't have to be all that visible in that very loud, shiny way in order to make things work unless you are of that style, which I happen to be. And so that's why people like me will write a book, will assume that our way was the way that everyone does it because that's what all our visible friends do. But when you get under the surface and get curious about what does success mean? What are people who are thriving but they're not the known names. You can't go and look up a beautiful website because that isn't how they did things. Things. You get a really, really different picture emerging lots and lots. I could say. Jenny, what are your thoughts around it?

I have never heard it put that way for specifically the third type, the trusted person. That building your brand will detract from how you work best and attract clients and income best. And I feel like nobody is saying that because everybody and of course I try not to make too many generalizations but 99% of the advice and is build a brand. You gotta build a brand and get out there and get out in front. We're living in a time of the personal brand or the brand of you. We're all our own. CEO of ME Inc. All of that language, really, you're so right. It probably makes trusted people and to some extent connectors feel really bad. Just feel like, but I don't want to do it. I mean just my paper to my soul.

Yeah, it can make attractors feel bad too if they haven't stepped into their power yet. So I don't think it's as by the way, just for listeners. Just because you're struggling to attract people doesn't mean you're not an attractor. It might mean you need to have more techniques, more knowledge, more like getting good with who you are. I don't think it's quite that simple. But if you read the book, we have some ways of self identifying the best that you can. So I'd say that. But something else I'd say is I totally agree with what you're saying there that, that people aren't talking about it. And I guess on a personal note, the reason I could talk about it was I had this sort of sense for a few years that something was off in what I was teaching. And it wasn't that it was wrong because I was like my courses were as good, if not better than a lot of the stuff out there. I knew they worked. And I was just like, something's not right. And it was one day when someone who I knew came to me, who I now know as a trusted person and they said, oh, should I sign up to this course? And I said no. And I was like, why on earth would I tell someone who needed my course right to not to do it? And that was when I was like, something just really wrong here and I end up. That's when I pulled down a member, a very successful membership. I pulled everything down. And it was only when the income stopped coming in from those courses that I could see it clearly. And that's when we started to build. So I think a lot of this is, you know, we get attached to there being one right way, people end up teaching one right way. And it's a lot more, it's not as simple a message. You know, the first edition of my book was very enticing in that, like it's only one chapter that has a huge change, by the way. And we added that as a bonus for the attractors to still read. But that one chapter was really enticing. People go, oh, wow, so I just start a blog or a social following and I grow a list and I grow a following and I'll have success. And that was true for some people. And I've had some people had huge success. But it's actually, it's the complexity. And I think when we're in a time of feeling a little bit so quite maybe stressed, feeling like, am I, is it going to work? Am I going to be enough? We can sometimes look for simplicity in the wrong places. You know, it's not saying things have to be complicated, but it is saying that just because the way I like to say is the way that someone else got freedom isn't necessarily your best route. Just because you like someone's style, you can learn so much from them, doesn't mean that every single thing that they did will be right. Their attitude might be helpful when it comes to branding. By the way, I still think trusted people can brand personally, but that is then shown in how they talk to people, maybe how they do their LinkedIn profiles, but they just don't need to have a huge, huge website based or Instagram based brand. Does that make sense? It's like that. It's that nuance between the two.

And in the book you talk about, examples of trusted people are ones who get a lot of business by referrals. They're often specialists. So they may not have a podcast. I mean you could, it's not that you couldn't, but I actually know a.

Trusted person who has a podcast and I asked him recently, I asked him, you know, how many clients come through your podcast? Which by the way, is the way you find out people's styles. You're like, where do your clients actually come from? Did you know them personally? Fascinating. And he was like actually, yes, he gets clients through the podcast, but they were people that were referred through previous clients. So it's like you, you can use these techniques, but be aware of what stage in this or the intake process or the sales process people are actually landing in.

Right.

His attraction is still through either partnerships of people like me, I promote him a lot. Or through previous clients. And his podcast and website are almost the things that clinch the deal for those who have had a strong word of mouth referral. So it's a really interesting perspective shift on that.

And podcasts are such an incredible way to build trust. So I can actually see a trusted person. For example, I recently took an entrepreneurial bookkeeping course with Brooke Castillo. And see, this is so bad, I'm forgetting the name Mark Butler. Okay. Because she's the one. She's the attractor out in front. Mark Butler partnered with her on this course. I went up and looked and I thought, does Mark have a podcast? I would actually listen to a podcast about accounting. And I went and looked for it. And that might be an example of when people are looking for you. You're there and you're there with trusted information. And similar to you, I even think with being an attractor, I was going to say, the longest pause I took in my business was I pivoted away from life after college. I knew I didn't want to talk about that for the rest of my career. And so I set up in the interim a website at jennyblake me. And for a little while, it was systems at the intersection of mind, body and business. And I was happy to still be blogging. I was happy to have a new platform and a snazzy new website. However, a little ways in, I got very uncomfortable because there was no separation between Jenny Blake, the brand, the website, the blog, and. And meet the person. And so that actually, that's around the time I paused build your business. I paused taking on coaching clients. And that was then led to my apocalypse year. And then came pivot. And now you'll see Jenny Blake taught me redirects to pivot. I'm much more comfortable being an attractor based on my ideas versus an attractor based on what I look like or how my lifestyle is. So you really won't see me posting pictures, unfortunately. Like my family even I'll go to Paris and they're like, did you take any pictures? And I forget, you know, so I don't do that. But I. So I think even within each of these, it's so good to know yourself. And Say just because I'm out in front, I want you to be here listening because of my ideas, not because of my brand. If that makes sense.

Thank you for raising that. That's what were the things. When we developed the idea of only three styles, I was like a. Let's keep, keep it simple. 3. But I, I describe them as a playground. So as an attractor, you know, we enter like the attractive field. There's all these different playgrounds that we can play in. So there's the person who attracts with personal story. There's the person who attracts through social media because they're great on video. There's the attractor who really doesn't do video and is amazing at writing. The other tractor who's based on ideas. So you can attract the idea as you're being a madness. And this is the same through every single of one of these. It's funny. So we're so different on that. Like I, I'm a real oversharer and so I'm. If you look at my, my Instagram, I am definitely sharing a lot of stuff and my stories are personal and so you can have your own style. And I think it's so important to not. When we spend our time comparing, you know, what's Jenny doing versus what's Marianne doing. You'll get into a loop because then you try to do a bit of everything and it never works right.

And I love sharing too. I love, like even within the Momentum community, I'll just, I'm an open book, so that counts for me. It just doesn't have to do with visual visuals. Isn't that funny?

It's like, whereas I'm super visual. That's the difference. It's like, I love that.

So on the topic of comparison, comparison and compare and despair, I think a lot of that happens because of another phenomenon you describe, which is, is overcoming information overload. And I just have to read. There's this great line from that chapter. You say, stop. Do not pass the library door. Do not collect 200 websites. Online research is addictive. It gives you the illusion of moving forward, but in reality keeps us mired in analysis. Paralysis. There is always something more to learn. Talk to us about information overload. Of course, I think a lot of free range humans and entrepreneurs are very growth oriented. We love gobbling up books and podcasts and information and learning and growing. And entrepreneurship will call forth all your blind spots and ways you need to grow. But how do people know when to stop and put down the books and put down the Podcast and actually get into action.

Yeah, big one. And I think even another layer on that is I think a lot of people who read my book and I'm sure a lot of people who listen to podcast, we're kind of perfectionists. So we set high standards for ourselves and we like to get things right. That's a big theme among free rangers. And when you're that person, I know from experience what we think we need is keep on researching some more. And of course that leads to disastrous outcomes as we all, we all know we've been there where we've researched ourselves into a corner. It's become the biggest thing in the world or we don't know which way to move. And so then there's a few approaches that we use in free range land. I find super helpful with that. I'm actually going to start with one that's not in the book that we had to cut out because we went over the word limit. And it's a simple question that I ask in all of our courses and events and it is, what game are you playing? What game are you playing right now? So for example, if you hear someone say, oh, well, you know, in order to be successful, you really need to know everything about Facebook ads. The first question I get people to ask is, hold on, on a sec. What game are you playing right now? So the game might be, I have launched a course and I want to fill this up with people who would previously have been one to one clients. And I want to make them in that do it as a course so I use my time more efficiently. I'm like, okay, great. So the game that you're playing right now is the game of learning how to package and sell this product to people who already know you. You. And when you ask that question, it's a lot very clear that that person does not need to go off and learn how to do Facebook ads right now, if ever. Right? So the first when you know what game you are playing, you can start to filter the information way better. But the two points that I shared in the book for information overwhelm are really simple. The first one is, is this right for who I am? Is this right for who I am? And as we've just shared here, that can be through the lens of your free range style. It can be through the lens of your.

So for example, I think one of the saddest things I read is when you see those ads that say, well, in order to be successful you must. And it will be something like learn how to Sell through speaking, learn how to build a giant following. I saw one of those this morning, actually learn how to kill it with SEO or whatever it might be. And it's like, no, in order for someone to be successful, that is necessary. Is it right for. And the example I give in the book is that I am the least detail oriented person in the whole world and terrible at like systems and things like that. And so I have steered away from doing anything to do with something like SEO for my entire business. Not because it's not a smart strategy, not because it's not a good idea to think about, but because it would be a hugely big drain on me and my resources to think about that when there are other things depositing. So I really encourage people to get into that mindset. Like what's right for you? What's right of making? If you have five top strengths, is this making the most of one of them? The second question is, and the last question in the book is, is this right for where I am? So if it's right for you, you're like, yes, actually that completely fits my personality. Is this right for the moment in time that you're in now? And I think this is a whole other conversation, Jenny. But I'm sure you see this where people who start out in business and struggle for a while then get success often assume they made mistakes at the start and try to teach people how to not make those mistakes. But the reality is there's a huge difference in the energy that you bring to the table when you are starting versus when you are growing. So if you are starting out and you have a bunch of information that's flooding at you and you haven't really had your first really big wedge of clients come your way or customers customers come your way, then anything that's based on what we call multiplying. So multiplying what you your success already. So for example, you have a sales video or a sales page that's done well and you want to get to more people. Anything that's based on that. When you don't have a sales page or sales video that's done well, that's not right for you right now, even if it fits your personality. Because there's such a difference in focus and energy at the beginning. When you're trying to, to get that first step of momentum where you need to get the first bunch of clients, you need to get the product out there, you need to understand what sells, how do you sell best, what works in reality. That's where your focus is. And so I encourage people to always split off the magnification or the multiplication stuff versus the starting stuff. And that's just a taste of it. When you think if you had to keep two things in your head when you read anything, number one is, is it right for you, for me, and is it right for where I am right now, knowing that, you know, there's a difference between starting and testing and getting it right versus magnifying something that's already working? That's when you're. You're getting it out to more people.

Absolutely. And I love how Pat Flynn said it. He said, I'm a just in time learner. And at the moment I heard that episode of his podcast, I was doing the same thing. Normally, launching is not my strength or my zone of genius, but I needed to do it to spread the word about momentum. So I did this deep dive and I listened to all these podcasts on webinars and sales pages, and it's not the thing I love. So I don't do it all the time, but I was willing to dive deeply at that moment in time, at that stage of my business, for the stage of momentum, specifically, which is just one of 10 income streams of my business. So I think it's also so important, like, there's no way I could become the launch page or launching pro or sales page pro. A, I don't want to, and B, I don't have the time, energy, attention, or desire to do that 247 in my business, but I will do it. I will. I was joking that I'll come up for air like a meerkat and just, like, pop out of my little spot in the ground and be like, huh, what's going on? Who's out there? What are the best practices? What can I learn? And then, most importantly, how can I do it my way? Which is. Is so much of what you say as well.

Yep, exactly.

It's funny, too. I love systems and I love software and I love tech, and I do to an extent. I enjoy details. But I also have put zero energy into SEO, even though I used to work at Google. And I know the principles of it. You just can't do it all. And I think it would be so easy for somebody to dilute their genius, really their best work, by trying to do it all and thinking well. But if I don't do SEO, bad things will happen. No, there's, I think, a magic energy to doing what you do best. I would love. I know we're close on time, but I Would love for you to tell us why you don't need an original idea. The hundred dollar test and the three E's of selling without selling your soul. If you back in.

I think listeners are gonna have their minds blown. Thank you.

Okay. Obviously original idea. The highlight of this is that you don't need an original idea because. Because no one has an original idea as I talk about in here. And actually I think I talk about a bit in my TEDx talk. The best ideas are things taken from one field, reused in another. Something taken from one area of your life and reused somewhere else. So instead of looking at something original, look at where your difference, my big thing is your difference is your edge. What is different about you, you can bring to the table and make it original. For me, I'm someone who identify as an hsp, a highly sensitive person. I have a history of anxiety, depression, much a super feeler. And I brought that as my edge into a world that at the time and certainly now was a lot more.

It wasn't like that. It was a lot more about the systems and the outcomes and the go out there and kill it. And my style and my writing. And the reason it had success was because I inhabited my difference. So I say instead of looking for something original, choose something that brings you alive and look at what you can inhabit. Your difference. Be a background difference, an industry difference, or a personality difference without in that then the hundred dollar test is a really simple idea where when you have something you think would be a really cool idea to do, you see it through until you make a certain amount of money. And in the book I say $100, it could be anything. You choose the amount of money and you see it through until you have done that. Because it then gives you the discipline to learn what it is that you really love about it, learn what works and you don't end up with a list of ideas in that sense that, that sense you're just not grounded in it. That you're just like, oh my gosh, I'm like, I'm floating out into the air with a billion different ideas. Nothing ever happens. We get people to do 30 day projects where you take the heart of an idea and you test it out to a certain outcome.

My favorite thing about that by the way, was when you said you're not allowed to quit your idea until you've made a hundred dollars. That's so good because it's very easy. I had Charlie Goki on recently about his new book Start Finishing, but it's so easy. To get discouraged at the last stage of an idea and just be like, oh, no, I don't want to get the word out. And we let it die on the vine. And I just love that you say set a dollar amount and see it through. Until you earn this minimum amount, you are not allowed to count your idea out. If it's one that you've been working.

On, it's brilliant because you know, the hard stuff and the good stuff can be in the last moments. I imagine the amount of learning that you're missing out on. Imagine the. Yeah, there's so much that happens right at the end, even though it's less shiny than the beginning. So it's such a big thing that we do in Free range Land. And what was the last thing you want me to talk about?

Oh, yeah. Well, on that note, I will say now on the other side of the momentum launch, I've had a story for a long time that I don't like launching. It's true. I mean, I love creating things, big ideas. Even the bonus course is called do this Next. I love giving people just that one next step and the systems and tools and software. Okay. I was surprised even myself I had this goal of keep my energy high, don't think negative thoughts like, let it be easy, let it be fun is one of my business mantras. And the day we were recording this is the day after the launch ended. It closed at midnight last night. I can't believe how much fun I had. Like, I actually had fun. And I'm so proud of myself and my team that we pushed through. And I won't even say pushed. We. We navigated the launch and we finished it and we saw it through and we didn't let up. I ran a marathon one time in my life and I was the slowest runner. Like I slow. I run more slowly than most people can walk. But I finished and I kept my steady pace the whole time, even though it was an embarrassing pace. And I feel like that's how launching was for me just now, where I actually had so much fun. I loved the webinars we invited people to. I loved interacting with the people who were coming. And because the new enrollment overview page was so much more specific than it had been in the past about heart based business, the people I was just blown away by who was attracted to this message. And I really surprised. I couldn't believe the feeling of just gratitude and satisfaction of finishing a launch of something that I, I typically in the past would have avoided and would have just said no, it's not my strength.

Oh, I. Very familiar. I agree. I have a thing that I don't. I'm. I'm good at launches, but I'm like, oh, my God, I don't want to do launches. So it's like, it's about finding a way of doing it that fits you. Right. Like, the way I do is I partner with people, I bring a. I bring other people on board, and that brings it back to life. So it's just finding your thing within that.

I love that. Okay. And the last thing, of course, which I just also love how you phrase this. The four E's of selling without selling your soul.

Oh, my God. I actually don't even remember what the four E's are right now. Jenny, that's so good.

Well, I'll tell you. Okay. Enthusiasm, engagement, equanimity and ethics. Maybe just pick one of them. Which one do you. Yes.

Well, my favorite is equanimity, and not just because it's a random word.

It's one of my favorite words in the dictionary.

Yes, it's a real word. It's my absolute favorite. It's the only one I ever really remember. And the reason is that that's a sense of grace, groundedness, a sense of, I guess, calmness that you're bringing, much like you're describing in your experience that, you know, it's very easy to get into this copycat, manic, like, you know, sell like despite anything. And there's. Yet, if you want to do something long term, equanimity is about that sense of, I guess, groundedness, that sense that you're doing things in a way that not just works for you, but that is going to be there over a long period. So that, that might be making a call about whether you sell that last place at all costs or not. That might be about making a call about whether you have an upsell and how that looks like it comes from a much more grounded even. I think it's an even keel kind of place. And I think when we come from that place in conversations, in writing, in video, that fear of am I going to come across as too sleazy? Or that sense that you kind of do, even though you don't know it. Right. For people who don't have that feeling fear, it isn't there because it feels more real. So I think it's probably the least tangible of the four, but I think it's the most important. You know, how do you come across? Are you coming at from a very even way? Was that your take on it?

Oh, I just. Equanimity is one of the core principles that I try to live my life by. Not happiness, just equanimity to me is happiness is like even more fulfilling than happiness. And as you were saying that, I recalled my team and I read a book called it doesn't have to be Crazy at work by the founders of basecamp. And last night someone wrote, we only have a Slack channel for the launch because none of us wants to be on slack the rest of the time. But I went to bed at 7 on the night of the launch. It closed at 12, exactly as you said. I could have been hustling those four hours and burning the candle and trying to stay up late. And even Stephanie, who was my kind of co pilot in the launch, she's in Amsterdam working remotely, free range humaning. And she wrote in our Slack overnight, it doesn't have to be crazy at work. Like this was one of her lessons from the launch. And to me, exactly as you said, equanimity in entrepreneurship and in this world of work that we're talking about is that if you're in it for the long game, you have to honor yourself and your rhythm and your preferences and not while skirting away from things that are uncomfortable, you know, but doing things in a way that is calm. It's okay to have a calm launch. What would that even be? You know, it's okay to have. It doesn't have to be crazy at work or to say I am in this self employment game, you know, for the next 50, 60 years. How do I do it in a way that's sustainable and that's going to work and that gives me peace of mind and exactly as you said. Equanimity.

Love that. Absolutely right. And can I say one little thing is it's just you made me think, as you gave that example, that question I said before, what game are you playing? That is a really good time to use it. So. So my version of your example was the other year, my business partner on launches, Selena and I, we came up with the game that we wanted to play for our next launch. And that was how do we. Our game was we're going to make this launch our biggest launch ever and our easiest launch ever. And we set that intention, which sounds impossible. I was like, oh my God. And so this is where what game are you playing? Comes out. You set the game and then you have to get creative to answer that question. And what happened was it was our biggest launch ever and our easiest launch Ever it was, we had to get creative to solve the problem. If you don't set the game, the default in your field, in your history, in your head, in what all is around you, the default will set the rules for you. So setting the game, to me, is a creative exercise. How do you play the game that you set? And that, I think, is the start of seeing this, what you're doing in a whole new and much more exciting way.

And I just love that you phrase it as a game because, yes, it can be stressful and there are ups and downs, but if you see it as a game, it is a fun problem to be solved. And I kind of feel like the ultimate. Like it's such a rewarding. The bigger the challenge, the more fun you can have if you have the right mindset and really see it as that. I know we're right at the end, but I also wanted to say, I know that your mom. You said your mom is the secret power powerhouse behind the movement. And that was just such a nice way that you closed the book. And I just really wanted to acknowledge that and even honor her on this conversation because it sounds like she was just such an incredible teacher that you had early in life.

That's my favorite chapter in the book, the lessons my mom. I actually wrote that chapter originally as a post in my email list. I think it was on the 10th anniversary of her death. And. And it got such an insane response that when I wrote the book, I had to include it because, yeah, it's. You know, we can learn from so many people, even people who are not, you know, teachers within what we do.

So if we could leave listeners with one experiment or piece of homework, and it could be related to one of your pieces of advice that your mom would give, what would you have people do when they finish listening to this episode?

Oh, that's a good question. I actually think we go back to something that I said just, just now, which is to get thinking about what game do you want to play next? So is there something you're trying to do or thinking of doing? What is the game you could set? Could it be, I want to do it in a way that feels like me, I want to do it in whatever it is. Set your game for the next thing you're doing and write it down. I think that's something that can really get you thinking more creatively longer term.

Last but not least, where can people find you if they're interested in keeping in touch and checking out the book? Great.

Well, they can either check me out on Instagram @freerangemarianne. If you want to check out the book, you can get a free chapter at be a freerange human.com free chapter so you can go and check that out and poke around inside.

It's so good. And if you're looking to get the book itself, look for Marianne Cantwell Be a free range human. Escape the 9 to 5 Create a life you love and still pay the bills. Marianne, thank you so much.

Thank you. It's been great to be here.

Thanks so much for listening to this episode of the Pivot podcast. Make sure you don't miss an episode or my insider tips and templates by signing up for Pivot List, a curated twice monthly newsletter where I share the inside scoop on what I'm reading, watching, listening to, and the latest tools I'm geeking out on. Sign up@pivotmethod.com pivotlist get show notes from this episode@pivotmethod.com.

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Remember, build first, then your courage will follow. Hasn't it always.