148: Penney & Jenny Show—Pivoting From Toxic Situations Toward Self-Entertainment

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What's next? This is a question we're all having to ask and answer more frequently. I'm Jenny Blake, your host of the Pivot Podcast and author of the Only Move that Matters is your next one.

For show notes from this episode, visit pivotmethod.com podcast if Change is the only constant, then let's get better at it. Here we go.

Hello everybody. I am delighted to be back with my wonderful, amazing co host Penny Pierce for another installment of the Penny and Jenny Show. Today we are kicking things off with a question submitted from a listener, Sarah, on moving beyond toxic situations at work. And then Penny and I are going to riff on what Penny has been playing with as an even.

Which is self entertainment. I cannot wait to get into this topic. So to kick us off, here is the submission from Sarah and a reminder, if you want to submit a question, go to pivotmethod.comAsk hi Penny and Jenny.

Thank you so much for your podcast and your message and the conversations you have. It's been super helpful. My question is about liminal states, which I know you've talked about and I understand that it can't be rushed. But my question is how do I stay patient and persistent when my current day to day is toxic? And by day to day I mean at work where the entire team is just toxic. And that at least has been a clear sign that I'm on the wrong path. So I've been working on myself and things are shifting, but it's slow and that's difficult because life just gets exponentially more horrible at work all the time and that makes it hard to focus on anything else. So I'm wondering if there's an opportunity for a similar role in a better team that could get me out of the bad situation. Do I take it so I can feel less drained? Or would that be repeating the same pattern as before and taking me further away from where I want to end up. That's where I am right now. Thank you so much for listening and.

Have a great day.

Thank you so much Sarah for the big open hearted Question. And for your vulnerability to share that with us, with me and Penny and with Pivot podcast listener. I know there are so many people who are in exactly the same situation where, you know, you've identified that a situation is toxic or draining your energy and you're not quite sure what to do or when. So Penny, to kick things off, how would you describe a toxic situation?

Yeah, you know, it's, you know, it actually literally means poison. Right. So. And I've heard some people call it soul murder, although of course the soul can't be damaged really. But I think it's an experience where you start to feel very suppressed and negated. People are not treating you well or you're feeling very controlled.

People put you down or they do very sort of tricky ways of asserting their own ego over you. And largely, I think it has a lot to do with maybe you're just feeling that you can't express your whole self and that what you are expressing is valued. How about you?

Yeah, I love that definition. For me, I experience toxic situations as incredibly draining. And no amount of personal development tips and tricks seem to be working because I think sometimes we get in challenging situations, but we're meant to learn and grow. Whereas toxic for me is there is no more growth here. The only growth is accepting and getting the clarity to keep moving and to say no and actually leave the situation. That's the growth that can then happen. Because I wonder how you differentiate for someone that does such a, for myself, I'm talking about myself here. Of I do such a deep dive in the personal development space. There's a lot of language around. Well, what are you noticing? How is this person in your environment mirroring something for you or showing you a blind spot? And so in the past, I remember, even with romantic relationships and work relationships, I was just, we, I had one manager at one point, I, I, I couldn't help it. I referred to her at the time as a fire breathing dragon because the, the energy was so toxic. People on the team were physically getting sick and were actively unhappy. No amount of conversation seemed to help. None of us knew what to do. So it's like you said that poison that despite our best efforts, we couldn't overcome, we couldn't collaborate, cooperate, get on the same page. It was just actively draining and even unhealthy and creating disease. Yeah, that's toxic. Like you said poison.

Right. And I think too, I mean, I've been in these situations myself where I worked with people where the bosses were actually fairly unethical and not only did they kind of spread negativity by not respecting the.

But they actually were doing illegal things. And then we were forced into collusion around not saying anything about it and feeling victimized by not being able to express ourselves fully. And so I ended up being a whistleblower. And right as I was leaving to move somewhere, I actually took this up to a higher level of management and they got fired. But I wouldn't have probably done it if I'd had to stay there.

I had no idea you were in this kind of situation. Yeah, we are 10 episodes in and many friend phone calls. And I've never known this about you.

I know, but you know, it is. I think even today it's because we're all so much more hypersensitive and alert and empathic and so forth that we pick up on more subtle levels of this kind of thing. You know, where you can almost just feel. I mean, even if your co workers are unhappy or depressed or apathetic, and there's not a spirit of camaraderie or co creation that's enough to make you depressed these days, you know, we're responding to maybe higher and higher frequency problems. In some ways it feels like there's.

A spectrum, because I agree with you. I think that especially someone as amazing as Sarah, you know, Sarah's doing the work. She's actually looking at her energy, her frequency. She's listening to these conversations and she's doing the work. And I do think that that creates contrast. You start to really pay attention and notice when people are draining your energy, when they're toxic, when they feel like an energy vampire. And the thing that I try to understand in these situations is what am I meant to learn and how am I meant to grow? Because it's weird. It's like if we weren't meant to learn anything, we wouldn't be stuck, we would just leave. But then sometimes you're in a situation where you feel stuck or your livelihood depends on this. And yet I just think it's so nuanced because I wonder how you would map out the terrain. And it is so prominent in our culture right now with politics, politicians, people who we don't think are maybe all the way mentally stable and they're in. They make their way up to very high positions or people who are sociopaths who become CEOs. We see this actually a lot. And I think more and more people are waking up to these dynamics. But I think there's a spectrum of, oh, the problem is everyone else not Me, so you think, oh, everyone, this is toxic, I gotta leave. And then that person might recreate toxic circumstances over and over again because they're not doing the inner growth. Then there's genuine toxicity, you know, and you, you know, you gotta go. And, and then there's some level of.

I don't know, acceptance. Or there's something where you would also. The opposite end of everyone else is the problem, not me, would be like what the term we have in our culture now of victim blaming. Like we would never want to blame the, the victims of really terrible circumstances. Even the one you described of being colluded into doing illegal activities. That's terrible, you know, so we never want to say, oh, Penny, you attracted that you must be.

It's like that either or of it's them or me, right? And it's my problem, you know, So I think you can get caught in that quite a bit. I think that you're right that, you know, we get into situations originally and maybe we have a sense that it's not the ideal thing, but we could learn something, you know, we kind of rationalize it to ourselves, well, okay, this will do for a while, but I really need the. And they're accepting me. So this is good. And then you start to see the drawbacks of it over time. But also you've been growing probably and wanting to have a greater level of self expression or creativity or access new aspects of yourself. And the job has limited you to the early job description and it has no room for evolution, you know, and so we stay in it then at some point because.

You know, we think, well, if we leave, will anybody ever want me again or will I find anything even as much as this? Or, you know, and you can really think negatively about the unknown, you know, thinking that at least I have this job, right?

And yet I think another problem of it is.

That we have forgotten how to really harness our imagination to be able to start imagining what we do want. But we can talk about that in a little bit. But I think what you were saying about.

Part of the reason of just not trusting yourself and trying to learn, is it me that's doing this? Do I have some kind of victim consciousness in me that I need to get over?

And when you're working with narcissists, it's very easy to. If you're not a narcissist yourself, then you feel like a victim because it's always a polarity, right? You know, and I don't think you can get out of it when you're working with a lot of narcissists because their whole deal is to belittle you and control you and make you feel less than they are to be worshiped, you know, to be the best. And so they don't have the ability to praise other people or value other people particularly. And I think at that point there is this recognition of the fact that there's nothing more I can learn. It's like what you said before, like, the only thing I can learn is that I don't need to do this anymore.

And don't you feel like narcissist consciousness also is they might have their favorites. So when you're under the halo of the narcissist and you're making them look good, good, you're the favorite, they take you under their wing. It can feel really wonderful when you're in their corner. Oh, yeah. So it creates this really emotional roller coaster. And what.

What I notice you don't realize it's manipulation at the time, though.

Yes. And there's a book I read long ago on gaslighting, which. The Gaslight Effect. It's named after a movie where the other person slowly makes you feel like the crazy one. And it's like this. It's very toxic. It's an extremely toxic situation. But it happens so slowly over time at such a small and sort of wiggly level where you can't really put your finger on it. No one horrible thing has happened, but many have felt like sandpaper on your soul. And I know, I know I've repeated this in romantic relationships in the past where all of a sudden one day I woke up and I said, what did all these people have in common? Me, you know, or in a wor. Work situation. So I do think one thing I've noticed in. In the work situation, both in my past and in working with clients, is there's a tendency when you think you're operating with normal, rational, emotionally intelligent actors just like yourself, like Sarah. I think you're probably very highly emotional intelligent. We assume the other people we're dealing with are going to be that way. So when they're mean or belittling or toxic or angry or controlling, then we take it very personally. And I think that's a mistake I' made in the past. I think, well, there must be something wrong with me. Why can't I figure this out? And I take it personally and therefore it drains me. Whereas the times that I stop and I put myself in a watcher position and I say, wow, I have a front row Seat to this train wreck of a manager.

What can I learn? How is this part of my mba, my business education? And when I put myself as the watcher, I am watching a movie called how to Report to a Narcissist. You know, if I would picture myself in that kind of movie, all of a sudden it becomes much more entertaining and I'm learning something, and I'm not attached, and my personality and my self worth are no longer at stake.

Yes, I think we do draw situations to us in the early phases that have something to do with inner patterns that we have experienced that we're slightly unconscious about. So, for instance, if you are working with narcissists or adult.

You know, you may have had dominating people in your early life. You may have had to learn to people, please in order to be successful. And maybe unconsciously, you're examining the nuances of those kinds of behaviors and making it conscious enough that you can say, well, wait a minute, that's not really who I want to be. You know, that is not really me. And then you can let it go and clear it, but you almost stay sometimes long enough until you have that realization, you know, because really, people who are stuck in dominating patterns either, you know, ego and narcissism, you know, ego can be dominators and it can be victims. The same way it's all about controlling your reality, you know, and if you're around people who are controlling, well, there's no room for creativity or fluidity, you know, and so in a certain way, your personality is very sacrificial. It's very contracted, and you're not getting the benefit of the soul, of your own soul and of the genius that you are inside. And even if you are slightly unconscious about this, there's always a feeling of this feeling of sacrificialness, if you will, that something is not right. I don't feel good. And then, you know, what do you do? You go home and have a couple of drinks after work or whatever. You try to medicate yourself. And then if you keep staying, it gets worse and worse, and you may even get sick.

Or have an accident or something, something to break the cycle. Hopefully it doesn't have to come to that.

This reminds me of the drama triangle, which is that in toxic situations, we kind of create a cast of characters even unconsciously. So there's perpetrator, the victim, and the hero. And at any given time, in an unhealthy dynamic, we might be playing any one of those roles. So if it's very easy to Kind of point a finger and blame another person. That makes us the victim. And sometimes now again, this is not about victim blaming. However, I've noticed this dynamic in myself that when I can be the victim and just complain, I and vindicated, I get to vent. It feels good. I'm like, this person is crazy. Don't they even see it? You know? And it feels good. It's kind of cathartic to vent, but it's like from a victim consciousness. Even again, even without me realizing it or calling it that then the perpetrator is like the bad guy and then the hero. I've also been even in friendships, oh, I need to help save this person from their perpetrator. Like I dig in and I, I think it's my responsibility or if maybe in a romantic, romantic relationship, I, I don't think. Well, actually maybe. Yeah, in the past where I'm like, oh this person's so down, I can really help them. Like the helper energy takes on too much work and then that can even become toxic. Like taking on the hero consciousness where.

It'S like you're being on whistleblower. You know, the whistleblower was a good.

Thing that you ultimately were a whistleblower.

Yeah, you know.

It can be, I think a thing that I'm going to save people and I'll do it, you know.

But also it felt like it was necessary, you know, like somebody should do it. So I don't know, maybe you have to sort very carefully about what's ego and what's not ego in your own self. And I really do think that it's okay to decide that you're finished with a situation that makes you feel bad.

That you're not being selfish. You're actually validating your true self.

Which is the soul of course, which really wants to flow through the personality unimpeded. It doesn't want to have all these limits and all these people saying no and being conditional about the way you have to be and all these things. The more you're trusted, the more you are valued and validated, the better you get. So of course a non toxic situation is one where people really vote for you and they help you and you evolve and they want you to.

That toxic has a lot to do with scarcity.

Scarcity, fear, control. Yes, desperation. There's so much fear. Fear in toxic situations. The more I've been in them, gotten out of them. I can look and see how much fear is operating on all sides. The controlling person is fearful and operating from scarcity. Like you said, and so they want to control and demand and brute strength, force their way through. And then the. The on the other side, there's a fear of leaving. What if, as you said earlier, what if I don't find something better? What if I can't provide for myself? What if I. What if the problem is, you know, and that keeps us stuck in fear?

Yes.

And I do think. I do think there's this energy aikido, because when you have a toxic situation, there's usually a power struggle of some kind. Like you said earlier, Penny, there's good or bad, or there's my way or the highway. There's this power struggle dynamic. And what I've been trying to notice is this energy aikido, or the spiritual pivot of just before leaving. Like you have every right to leave, but if you leave from within the power struggle, it's very likely to recreate the situation. Whereas if you become the watcher and don't react and don't take it personally, and you start to fortify, not yourself, your personality, but your soul, and say, I'm above this, I'm outside of this. You can't drain my energy. My energy is not for the taking. I have a protective bubble. My home frequency, as Penny talks about in book frequency. And the more that we can embody our home frequency and not let these bad guys, you know, women, women or men, but just the bad guy, the enemy, the perpetrator, let them penetrate or affect our home frequency. To me, that's true freedom. Because then every time in the future, you will start to spot these energy vampires right away. And you'll know. You'll know that you've built those muscles of returning to your home frequency to use Penny's lang, rather than just saying, well, I have every right to leave, and then sort of unconsciously recreating it, which that's what we're trying to avoid with staying in it just long enough to become the watcher and then making what I would say a clean exit.

Yeah, that is so good. I love that. Yeah. And I think there are some other things to examine in yourself. Like, I know I have stayed in situations a fairly long time just out of loyalty, but to me, loyalty has something to do with finishing what I started and not knowing if it was actually finished. Oh, I'll just stay a little bit longer and maybe it'll shift and then it doesn't. I'll stay, well, a little bit longer and maybe it'll shift and then it doesn't. So that loyalty thing It's a good thing, but then it also can keep you stuck. So you have to look at that and have your loyalty be a lot more to yourself. And I think part of why we don't leave sometimes is that.

We don't want to be selfish in a way that prioritizes our own self care or our own full self expression and our own growth.

To me, that has to be a top priority. Because if you don't stay in that evolving cycle, it's almost like you're no good to anybody either.

Everything kind of shuts down. Like your imagination gets dried up and your motivation and so forth. And then there are also sabotages that you may start unconsciously doing, like absenteeism, for instance.

So it's so important, I think, to, like you said, be the watcher. But also that's to distance yourself from immersion with the toxic situation, to separate and be neutral. But then once you're the watcher, then you can start to feel, who am I really? I'm not like that. That's not the way I choose to be. And so what do I choose to be? And that's where then we shift over. That's the pivot, I guess, where you start to look at what's possible.

Yes. And I think being the watcher then allows you to take clear, calm action that you know is right. So Penny, your example of saying this is wrong, this is criminal, and other people are being negatively impacted. I need to say something and I think we can get there. So the watcher, you know, this question comes up a lot of, well, how much acceptance is too much acceptance and it just makes you complacent. We see this a lot in the political sphere. Well, if we're, if we be the change, if we're all love and we're all acceptance, how do we actually ignite change? But it can happen. And I think that we're, we're more likely to be effective with that change and those actions when we can be the watcher, stop taking it personally, stop getting into the power struggle of the toxic situation. And then we know exactly what to do because we're connected with our soul in the situation. And so it doesn't mean you don't do anything or you don't leave, but it's from this really clear, deliberate place. And I will say, when you leave a situation from that clear, grounded place, you're less likely to get sucked back in, where the person says, well, who do you think you are? What are you doing? You're just so clear, they don't even try to argue.

And I think that's really important.

I think too, it has a lot to do. Like you said, power struggles. But I think we, especially women, perhaps are afraid to take definite action or to hurt someone or offend someone. But it's not power over.

You know, we need to. If you stand in your own self and you are aligned with what you love to do with that self entertainment thing, actually, you know, but what you're good at, what you love to do, what you're drawn toward, then you have a kind of natural, I don't know if you would call it power, but presence that is extremely convincing because it's real and you don't have to do any of the maneuvers that the narcissists usually do. You don't have to do it at all.

You just move forward and that allows a really clean exit. And I think you can still leave with grace because sometimes what happens in a toxic situation, you're. I've, I've done it. So I mean, everything I'm saying, just assume I've been there. Okay, so this is not on some kind of high horse, but I've, I've left situations in tears, miserable or angry or, you know, I've left the situation from within a very emotional place. And ultimately I had more work to do. So the situation showed up again. And when I, when I did get to know my home frequency and I did become actually really, it was such a breakthrough. Penny from your work and Byron, Katie, of noticing, you know what, if I'm gonna get rocked around by other people and their energy like this will never end, my whole life I'm gonna be at the feel powerless to people who, however they decide to act, I'm going to get drained or not. And so when I could find my footing and get grounded and be the watcher and still take action when I would leave situations, as you said, I love Penny, presence over power. Like not even over just presence instead of power. And then I could leave with grace. And I wasn't angry and I wasn't throwing things at the person or the situation I was leaving, but I just did it with grace, with love, and with a clear no of like, I'm done here. And then those. It did end up closing certain chapters of my life that I could just say a clear no and be done, but not from that really upset place.

And that allows you, I think, to do the next stage, which is.

You know, I call it a bridge experience or something. But it's, it's like after you do leave, then can you allow yourself that liminal space or the in between time?

Maybe you need to rest a little bit, get your mind out of what you were doing and those habits.

Maybe you need a plan for that interim time.

That you're not so you don't scare yourself or put too much pressure on yourself and go into adrenaline.

Mode, which by the way, that power dynamic can happen in our own minds. Sometimes we have an inner. For me it was mind. My inner like chief financial Officer. But sometimes you might leave. This is something I really counsel solopreneurs and small business owners. You might leave your bad boss just to start your own business and realize you are your own bad boss. You are the one in your mind cracking the whip about you need to work Monday through Friday, 9 to 6. How dare you go to sleep tonight. You have client emails that are waiting for you. You know that that tyrant can so easily transfer to become your own in your mind. So that's why this is such a. It's such a crazy thing because it's very easy to recreate that voice of this. So we kind of externalize the bad boss. But it can be us, you know, right. We are not immune. It can be in your head. So before I really do want to get to this bridge experience and even what comes after that towards self entertainment. But what would you say to the second part of Sarah's question? She's asking if there's an opportunity for a similar role in a better team that could get me out of the bad situation. Do I take it so I feel less drained or would that be repeating the same pattern as before and take me further from where I want to end up? I know we can't know her exact situation, but how would you approach that org in the road that she's at?

My thought on that is that that could be part of a bridge experience, you know, some interim plan. But probably if she's in the same culture, there's going to be some kind of similar mechanics going on in the other team. You know, she's not getting out of the field of the thought forms and of the emotional body of that company, you know. And so it to me it's a temporary thing. I don't know. What do you think?

Yeah, I totally am with you. I call it an interim pivot that sometimes people know what they want to do two moves out. Often it is, is for me, people who come to me, it's, I want to start my own business, but they're not ready yet. And so pivoting internally is actually a great move. And I'll also say that not every company culture catches toxic managers. There's just a certain percentage of them in any given culture. But there will be times where you outlast sometimes. It's a patience game. It's not taking it personally and it's waiting until you can make that interim pivot or internal pivot and find that new role. I have seen plenty of people, people escape the fire breathing dragon manager and like truly, truly their life and their work improves. But I also think, Sarah, only you can know what is your soul calling you toward that there. My intuition here is that pivoting to another team is a bridge experience. Like Penny said, like, that's okay. It's kind of moving away from the thing you don't want, which is the toxic team. But I'm not hearing that you're thrilled. I'm not hearing that that's the real draw that your soul, your heart is calling you toward this other team. And it's always what you've always wanted to do. Maybe it's on the people development team, coaching others, and you would just love to get this role. It sounds more like a two step pivot. Like, first get away from the toxic situation, then go to what you really want. And then whenever I have a client in that situation, I say, well, what would it look like to just go for what you really want, want in this situation?

Right. And I think it's very logical that many of us, I call it doing the boat through the lock maneuver, where you pull out of one gradually. Maybe you start a freelance business in your spare time and you're planning to move out and then you actually do, and then the other one's a little bigger and you can start to gradually shift your energy over to something.

Because the boat goes into the lock, it fills up with water, it gets to the next level that fills up with water and it goes through and it gets out the other side. And sometimes it is like that. For instance, maybe you have some savings and you can have a chance to do more research and planning and get your new business going without leaping in and going cold turkey.

So I think an interim job, that's a step or two closer to what you want. It doesn't have to last forever. And if that feels doable or safe.

And you feel like you want to try it, that's fine too.

But I think that a lot of this relates a lot to being able to engage your imagination. Because if you've been in a Toxic situation for quite a while. It's kind of like Stockholm syndrome. You end up joining in with.

Your captors.

And then you forget to think on your own a little bit. So you have to kind of reinvigorate that as you start thinking of pulling your energy out.

It's so important. This is something that sometimes I'll have clients come to me, and what they really want is to leave, but they're afraid. And as you defined it, Penny, gradually the boat through the loc. I think what we're trying to avoid here, if I would use pivot terminology, is the panic zone. So if you're gonna. If I say to you, Sarah, or anyone in this situation, you gotta just leave tomorrow. But if that's gonna put you out on the street with no way to support yourself for the next three months, that would put you into such a panic that that's no better. That's also not gonna be healthy. And it's ultimately gonna really constrict your thinking, your creativity, and your options. So the question is, is how much can you accept? Like, what if you accepted that nothing is personal, no way that your boss or your team is acting has anything to do with you, and it's not permanent? And then this bridge experience, what if you took the pressure off that it has to be perfect, the perfect next move? This happens so often with pivoters, and when I'm giving speeches, people put pressure to have the perfect next move, and if they don't, they feel they should stay right where they are. Well, what if you just knew that your next move was going to be an interim kind of stop gap? I sometimes call it a leapfrog pivot or an interim pivot, where it just, you know, for sure, you give yourself permission, that it doesn't have to be permanent or perfect. And then what would that allow you to do so that you can stay in that stretch zone, not your panic zone.

Oh, I like that. Stretch zone. That's a good term. Yeah. I mean, for instance, maybe you want to take some time to get some training or actually get help with problem areas from other people who have been through it that can really help you.

Maybe you just want to noodle and doodle around with what are my favorite things to talk about to do? What did I do when I was a child that I always loved and sort of dredge up other things in yourself that are.

You know, that are really fun. Like, I always think of what is the spring fever feeling? You know, like that feeling of energy starting to move again and you're all excited.

And you know, what if I put a couple of those together, what kind of job might that create? You know, take my variables of all my favorite ideas and combine them and think about what kind of dream job might that be. Because today, my gosh, everybody's kind of creating odd jobs that put together different things they like to do. So it's all possible.

But I think then once you get a kind of a glimmer of that, you might want to then start a trickle of it. And that could be part of the interim or the leapfrog pivot too, where you, maybe you're not getting a full time job in it, but maybe you apprentice with somebody, maybe you volunteer somewhere for a day, a week, maybe you.

Just do a little bit every day on writing a book, if that's what you want to do, or whatever it is, just start a little bit and then validate yourself while you're doing it so that your body says, oh, look, I'm having fun, I'm doing what I like. And that kind of starts a new habit within yourself to create a new normal.

I love that. I really love that. And I think, listen, I would never wish a toxic person or situation upon anyone. It feels so horrible when you're in it. It just feels so draining and frustrating and sad and unfair and it's just awful. It's just awful. I would never wish it. However, sometimes I think when I've, even when I was interviewing people for the book, people were in a job they knew wasn't their forever job. They really, in their heart of hearts were their whisper in their gut, had some idea what they wanted to be doing. And it wasn't until the situation got so bad or they got fired that they were almost relieved. Like, I have yet to find someone and I know they're out there, but so many people that I interviewed who had been fired or reorged out of a role were like, actually, I was so happy I was done with it already. And that's not to make light of these situations, but it is to say that sometimes I do think that life kind of turns up the volume on a bad situation to wake us up. Like, wake up, shake, shake, shake. Oh, you're not listening to the previous bad boss. Let me give you an even worse one. And then, let's see, like, can that wake you up? And it's, it's meant to wake you up to your soul's calling, your purpose for being here, that whisper, that thing. And, and I agree, what Penny said, like, it's starting to allow yourself to dream again because it can be so discouraging in a toxic situation. And I know know when I was in toxic romantic relationships I really blamed myself before I knew better. But how did I let this happen? How did I stick around for so long? What an idiot. How do I get fooled in this way? Get duped in this way, you know? And I had to just accept that well good people get tricked, you know what I mean? Like sometimes there's a books that have been written about this now like I think the confidence game and others where it's like, like we all get tricked sometimes, you know or we get like lulled into these situations and I had to just drop the self blame and shame and, and say well why did it need to be so aggressive this wake up call? And then sometimes I call it like emotional inoculation. The experience was so toxic and so bad that I was forever inoculated. Then the next time I met someone who was tricking me I knew within minutes. Now it's down to within seconds. I see it in their eyes and I think nope, I'm good here. I'm gon keep moving on to other people that I see the light in their eyes.

Yeah, yeah. I think the tricking part in some ways it's.

A blind spot that we have. It's something that we just didn't notice.

And.

I'm trying to think now about what the ideal situation actually would feel like. You almost need something to compare against.

Because we stay in the negative situation and think that's reality. And then you need something that is your ideal situation.

I think it's important to think about this for yourself. Like any new opportunity that you get must feel like this. I must feel amused, I must feel good about myself. I must be able to be creative and feel free and feel trusted and that I can empower others to feel. And we work together in this really cohesive, mutually supportive way. And that everything has that self entertainment aspect. Even if you choose to do something very difficult, something that's challenging does not mean it's negative. It's often something that you just feel like digging into and really proving yourself on and that is too. So we need to feel into the thing that we want because sometimes you can't identify the new dream job yet, but you can identify the state of being the way you want to feel, the kind of people you'd like to be working with, the way you'd like your interrelationships to be the way you'd like the growth to be within a situation or your ability to contribute.

And those things are important to identify first so that your body can shift into a new state of being. It's almost like strike the tuning fork of a new frequency and put it out all through your body and all through the field around you so that that acts as a kind of set of instructions for your reality.

I love that. Strike the tuning fork of a new frequency. Boom. But I do think when you're immersed in a toxic sit situation and drained, I know at those times, sometimes I question whether the ideal state is even possible. I'll be thinking, what right do I have to dream about that? It's so far away, is it even possible? And I've practiced delight as a muscle. Like I remember there was a time where I just thought, work is not delightful, work is work, you know, and these are stories I got growing up and from our culture. And I had to practice, practice. And this is where I love Penny, for you to tell us more about self entertainment. But I actually had to practice little moments of delight, little moments of letting myself dream. And as Penny said, the example of finding people who were showing me that my ideal state was possible. And I do think faith plays a role here because when you're coming out of a toxic situation, I do think sometimes, sometimes you've got to take a leap of faith that that ideal state is out there and it is possible. And that's kind of the abundance mindset that it is possible. I can be fully self expressed. But there is going to be a part of your mind and the current reality that doesn't believe it. And that's okay. I think, know that, don't think, oh, I'm defective, there's something wrong with me. I'm having trouble having full 100% faith and confidence in the ideal state. But keep going and like keep, keep building the ideal state and even practicing that delight muscle in little ways. And so on the subject of self entertainment, just a side note because I want you to rip on this, Penny, but Penny said to me before we were recording, she said, you know, I've come to believe that one of the highest frequency states is self entertainment. And I told her, that's amazing because you always hear people say, oh love, love is the highest frequency there is. And definitely love is a very high, high vibration, high frequency. But it gets so fuzzy in our culture what that actually means. So Penny, can you share kind of the difference and why you think self entertainment is such a high state?

Well, I mean on the love Thing. Just another note on that. I think I said like, oh, I'm. You know, it's like I went to sleep when I. She did.

She tipped over. We were on video and she just tipped over.

Because it's like one of those overused words that really doesn't portray a felt sense of what it is because it's so abst.

So there are other states that give you the felt sense of the actual experience of heart or communion or amazement or joy. That's even another one of those words. But yeah, I think that self entertainment. I always notice those people working in menial jobs like a janitor or a checkout person at the supermarket that are entertaining themselves by talking to everybody or making jokes. Jokes or juggling things or doing whatever they do because they just decided to be happy. And I really love that. And I think that when you are willing to look at anything in your life that shows up, even a toxic situation as something that could be entertaining, that you could take an aspect of your job that seems like drudgery, for instance, and find a way for it to be a meaning.

Or, you know, you could be bothered or you could be amused. It's a choice.

Yes.

You know, so there's sort of a deep choice about our lives. I think that we have. But let's stop complaining and choose things that allow me to express myself and to stay in the me that I enjoy being. And it's not ego, you know, it's a kind of a sense of freedom, of flow, of magic, of, you know, self expression that's just a perfect match for what needs to happen. It's like sort of magical and amazing the way things show up and you see the perfection in these things. And I think, I like that way of living for myself. I really enjoy it. And then what happens when you're in that state is that you start to receive opportunities and information and new ideas that are in the flow with you, that are of that same vibration. And it then becomes magical. And then you meet the people who kind of have the same ideas, and then they each have a puzzle piece and they start working together. And it's this very cohesive, easy flow kind of thing. That's the thing to start imagining that we can go into situations where things really work. And I would call it in a spiritual way, because that is, to me, the way spirit works. It doesn't have fear, it doesn't have blockages. It only has permission. It only has entitlement and entitlement without ego.

So we have to imagine that State and then realize it physically and maybe validate when you see something working that way, say, oh, look, it just happened. Aha. So it can happen.

And keep that plate spinning.

The metaphor that came to mind as you were saying that, because it's so true and it's so bizarre when you really observe how not getting hooked by someone's negative energy frees you up to be in flow and on a higher frequency for all other totally unrelated people and opportunities to come into your life. And as I was thinking about why does it work like that, I pictured a sponge just, Penny, while you were talking, a sponge came to mind. And when the sponge is totally damp, there's no energy there. It's like absorbed. It's fully absorbed. So it's almost that when you take in all the negative energy, the sponge is damp, it's wet, it's soaking wet. Actually, it's. It's saturated versus letting the bad energy bounce off. The sponge stays buoyant. It's like bouncy, it's dry, and you, you just move through the world and it's very bu. Way. So other people are drawn to that. You become like a magnet, A magnet sponge. And I'll give two examples of self entertainment that I didn't connect them to this conversation until just now. But over the years living in New York, I've developed two games. One is the elevator game. And the goal is, can I talk to someone who's riding with me in the elevator and not about the weather? So my goal is because oftentimes you get in the elevator with someone, it's just this awkward silence. So if they have takeout, I'll be like, oh, what's for dinner? Or oh, is that for me? Is that for 9C? You know, my old apartment? Or what are you reading? If they see they have a book or, you know, I just would always experiment with these playful little quips or try to get them to laugh or just what could I do to break the ice here? And I just found it entertaining. This was my personal mission every time I was in an elevator. Sometimes I'm in a not great mood and I don't want to play. And then the other game I play is if I have a particularly surly server or bartender or something where you can just tell they're having a bad day, it becomes my mission to see a smile on their face. Now, not in a contrived way. It still has to be authentic. But instead of me taking it personally and thinking, oh, what a jerk, no tip for you. I really try to see what's the, what's the entry point here? How could I empathize or how could I strike up authentic conversation? Or, you know, and you know, not every time, but maybe eight times out of ten they end up. There's a smile or there's a joy or I become. Even customer service reps on the phone will tell me, thank you. You have no idea how many people just complain all day, you know, and I've even like gently lovingly given spam callers from my, from my dentist. I've been like, listen, I know this isn't your fault, this is your job, but let me tell you, I've been getting so many texts from this dentist office, I want to come see you guys, but I cannot have 10 reminders of in a row. You know, just with that kind of energy of not taking it personally.

That is perfect. I think there are a million ways we can do that. You know that.

Do you have a self entertainment game you play when you're out in public?

Yeah, I do something similar with people in line at the store or, you know, just wherever I am, try to just see who they are, just, you know, feel people, get more deeply involved a little bit with people and that kind of thing. And then my other game is that I interpret my reality. I say, oh, okay, why did I just see those five ravens?

Oh, I love that game.

You know, it's like.

What does this mean? Or what am I trying to say to myself? Like, I have this conversation with my, I call it my inner perceiver. Like, why did I notice that? And so that kind of works as a part of a spiritual development for me as well. Well like a waking meditation or something.

And it's like interpreting the waking dream like you would a sleep dream. And so I do that all the time. And it keeps me involved, keeps me alive and conscious and noticing of many things, you know. One thing I wanted to say though too was about, you know, when we start to.

Try to open up toward what the next thing might look like, one of the things we tend to do is because a lot of the toxicity that we experience, I think comes from living in the left brain where everything is cataloged, categorized, defined, kind of locked down. And that's where we have beliefs. That's where things are kind of frozen and they don't like to change. Those ideas we have there want to stay the same. And so a lot of people who become toxic, I think are trying to keep their reality under control and they don't like change. So they try to manipulate things.

So.

When it comes to thinking about what could be next, there's a tendency for that left brain to be thinking about something that's a linear progression of what I already just did. Like, I could do more of this, or I could do the same thing, but differently, or, you know, just some sort of amplification or variation on what's already happened. Instead of.

Blanking out and letting yourself have that liminal space experience where you rest, all that talk, talk, talk that goes on from the left brain and. And allow a kind of fertile time where something can kind of re pattern itself. And then you get these surprise surfacings of other things. Like, I know I've had many where I was a corporate art director and graphic designer and doing all that. And then suddenly, after realizing that I felt like an imposter doing that, I stopped for a minute. And then guess what popped up? A class in clairvoyance. I was like, oh, maybe I should do that. And there I went. There was the next chapter just started to pop in. Because as soon as I did it and followed that kind of fascination, everything fell into place and started unfolding just like the yellow brick road. And so there have been many times like that where I'll be a little bit of boredom, Right. You know, like a sense of that I'm sort of done with this. I can keep doing it. I really like doing it. And.

There might be something here else. And then waiting until suddenly an idea pops in and then realizing that idea is kind of exciting. I don't know how to do it, but I'm not afraid of it. It would mean that I'd have to stretch, but I think I want to. And those are the feelings I think we need to understand, allow, you know.

Yeah, just that you described it. Fascination, curiosity. And it's so true. Everything huge I've ever done in my life came from one little moment where I was like, what? That's possible. Or I just wanted to turn over a stone. Like, whether it was applying the union or certain things, for me, the breakthroughs are by definition nonlinear. And I'm really big on not anytime. I think we get stuck to thinking even terms like, well, pay my dues or, well, it will be a linear climb. Well, I'll have to do this and then this and then this and then this. We have this if, then thinking. And for me, all the breakthroughs come from saying no. Definitely saying no to something usually occurs. And as you said, Penny, then there's some moment of delight or curiosity or Fascination that I just take the one next step to explore that thing. Or for me, it's often reading books about something, and then I just out. And I'm not attached to what it needs to look like or how it needs to end up, but it usually ends up taking me to a very interesting place.

Yeah, Like, I was kind of at a point earlier this year where I felt like I was in between a bit. I was busy kind of redoing my website and all, but that was not really a new thing. And so I had that space. And then I started to getting the idea that, oh, this would be a good time to write another book. Book. But I didn't know what it would be, so I just kind of set it there. It's like I set an idea in my aura and I let it float there. I picture it like a little, I don't know, a ball of light or something floating in my space. And then I'm going about, like, doing the dishes or whatever, and I get the idea for the book. And I went, oh, my God, that is the next thing. And then so I went and I wrote a couple ideas down about it, and then I put that aside and I went back in my daily round, and then I got the idea, oh, I should go back and add some more to. And then I got this phrase, which when I went, oh, my God, this is the title of the book. Like, I had just given myself the title of the book while I was thinking about fixing my to do list, you know, and that's the way things come often with me. You know, it's like, let go, open up. They pop in, but you have to notice it. And then don't do too much with it right away, but let it kind of gestate a bit. And then the next piece pops in, and then it just grows kind of naturally, like a fruit getting ripe.

This is so exciting. I had never. I had not heard that there's a next book.

Bubble in your aura. Ooh, I'm so happy. I'm so excited. We're getting the inside scoop, everybody. And I'm similar to you. I. I get. See, I notice those next book ideas, but I don't know for sure. So what I do is I create an Evernote folder called whatever that notion that came to my mind. And then I just start clipping articles. I just start noticing things along that topic, and it could become a book and it might not. But similar to you, I give myself permission that, well, great. Why don't I just tune into this Channel of existence and attention and information and see what I've done, pick up. And then it usually does evolve over time.

For me. I collect so much. I'm like a little hunter, a little squirrel, just collecting ideas and articles and anecdotes. And then sometimes I'll zoom back out and I'll say, now what did I just go collect? What happened there? Because it's almost this process operating in the background.

Yes. Yeah. And that also allows you to.

Give permission to other parts of yourself that you hadn't been using yet to surface and become a more integrated part of your totality. You know, my design mind that I used for so long actually led me to understand intuitive perception.

It was like. And then I realized, oh, I could study intuitive. I didn't know that you could grow up to be an intuitive, you know, like that. That was a thing, you know, and then that leads to I'm, you know, working with people and then I realize, oh, everything I've been talking about is a book. I think I'll. That's my next thing. And everything just kind of, you know, it builds into the next gift that.

You have that's so important because if you, when you were starting out, thought, thought, well, how could and not not just be an intuitive, but write the book called the Intuitive Way, you know, I don't know that you would have started. And so for me, sometimes I have to give myself permission to have a very broad topic that quote has already been done or that feels very cliche. It always starts like that. And then over time, I infuse my own ideas. I see what I disagree with, infuse my own personality. But it's very hard to have. Have the original idea right from the get go, or at least to give permission for it to unfold and then live into it and see, oh, I didn't realize how my whole life, like, even for you, Penny, where you can look backward and think, oh, this actually isn't that new. I'm not that a total newbie with nothing to say. I actually do have experience that I can share or a perspective, a worldview, even. Just your personality. I've come to really, as I've been doing this business renaissance. And I kind of. I've used the meerkat analogy. I'm like a meerkat. I popped back up saying, who's doing what out there in marketing, online courses? Because that's only one small part of my business, not the main thing. And I really noticed what a huge impact someone's personality makes that there is so much of the same content in the online business world, but each person's personality either makes it. You're drawn into it, or I'm turned off by it, or their voice. Like very basic things that we don't really. We don't probably notice about ourselves affect the material as well in a very interesting way. It just is fascinating to see.

And I think that's a really good point. You know.

When you're changing like that. I remember when I started doing readings and giving advice and stuff, I was pretty young and I thought, well, how do you. You don't know that much. You know, maybe you should study more and longer before you think of, you know, being an expert in this. And then I realized that just go ahead and offer what you've got right now, because there are people who need that level of whatever it is. And then as soon as you do it, you draw it more. And then you draw in the next level of the audience and then you draw in and it always matches your energy and who you are. So I agree with you. It's like people's voices, their level of enthusiasm, their level of calmness even, and simplicity. There are certain things that attract people and in sort of sequences as well.

And, and sometimes the only way to grow is that dynamic with clients like that, that one on one interaction. Because I find you could wait until you're an expert, but that knowledge will live in your mind, not in the lived experience of the work. So it's almost like actually the only way to grow is to start by serving and teaching what you know. Because then you, you start getting questions back from people or you see common situations. So there's a lot of intelligence that you get on the ground by doing the work that you cannot get from a book or waiting until you're ready.

Right.

And it also gives you a very unique worldview. And this is a form of course creation too, that I teach in Momentum, which is I prefer to only sketch an outline of the course, then invite people to enroll, and then I survey them based on each topic. And then the course. What are your sticking points? What do you most want to know? How can I be most helpful? So I designed the course for the exact participants who are in it, whether it's 30 people or a hundred people. I am creating the course collaboratively, on purpose. I'm not doing it to sell before I make it and to know it's worth my time. I'm doing it to, to actually create the thing that this particular group at this moment in time Most needs from me and that would be the most helpful. So the course, of course the experience of people going through it ends up being, wow, this is exactly what I needed, of course, because I asked for every single topic what you needed, you know, and trying to burrow away behind the scenes and then guess, which is so much harder to do.

I like that. And especially if we relate it back to this whole thing of moving out of toxic things that the self trust that has to develop.

That you thought of, that you thought of doing it differently than other people are doing it. And then it's so original and nice. And I think sometimes you have to throw yourself into unknown sort of situations like, okay, I'm going to do a seminar, a live thing over the weekend and I don't know how I'm going to do. But what happens then is people ask you questions and you find yourself answering with stuff you didn't know you knew or in a job, you know, they say, well, we need to have this designed or we need this. And then you. Things come out of you when someone has a magnet to draw it out of you. Sometimes, yes. And that's part of why it's fine to start new things or try new things that you aren't an expert in.

You know, because things will come up out of you to respond to the need.

I also think that pulls in your concept of noticing and intuition and self trust. I love self trust has actually served me better than terms like self compassion in the past because self compassion kind of felt wiggly. But trust is I trust myself to figure it out or I trust myself to give an authentic honest answer in the moment when someone asks me a question or I started to notice, well, what can I trust about myself? And I think that can really help in times of uncertainty or liminal space. And the other thing that I would be absolutely remiss if I did not say and I am going to create a course called Nonlinear Breakthroughs is I think first and foremost we need to give ourselves permission and open up to the possibility that we could experience a non linear breakthrough in a situation that we find ourselves stuck. And when I first expressed this notion, I've told it before on the Penny and Jenny Show. When I first expressed this at a workshop I was at in Brooklyn, the class laughed at me, the teacher laughed at me. They said, don't you know, don't you know healing this kind of trauma is a lifelong journey, you know, and it just like. But I said, well, I'm looking for a nonlinear breakthrough. I'm looking to completely heal my fear of intimate relationships tonight. And they laughed, you know, and it is kind of of funny. But who has the nerves to say that people go to therapy all their lives and lo and behold, boom. I did in fact experience a breakthrough that night that really freed me in such a powerful way. And it was, it was even my heart and my lungs spoke to me. My heart. And this was not, I was not on drugs, don't do that kind of stuff, but they talked to me. And my heart said, as long as I am beating, I am not broken. And my lungs said, as long as I am breathing, breathing, you know, I'm not broken. It was like my body loves me so much that my heart beats every second of every day. My lungs breathe me every second of every day. I'm not broken. No one can take that away from me. And it's just, oh, I felt so.

That'S such a great way to reclaim your, your presence, you know. That is really amazing. I often put my hands on my heart and I just. You thank, thank it for going on and doing its thing so loyally day and night. It's just, wow. It's an amazing thing. Just an amazing thing.

It is. Our bodies are such a miracle of existence and that no one, whatever they say or do or whatever happens or whatever life brings my way. If I'm still breathing, if my heart is still beating, then life goes on. I will find a way. I will find a way. Whereas I used to have a fear that someone could kind of take away my life force if we come full circle or by leaving me or by tricking any of these situations we've discussed. And now I apply it to money, to business, even to social media. Sometimes I think, oh, if I wanna grow the business or my income or the platform, oh, it's gonna be one by one this linear climb. And that doesn't feel fun. Whereas self entertainment is like, well, anything could happen at any time that would just like quadruple. Not that I focus too much on metrics anyway, but I just, I'm always available that things could happen in a non linear breakthrough sort of way and then fun things do happen, you know?

Yes, yes. Yeah. I think this part that we've been talking about is really a good kind of, of a summary or something of how we get out of those toxic things and the new state that we need to.

Well, just live in.

That it's not a long therapeutic process anymore, that it's a choice to feel a certain way and then to actually model that way of feeling. Step into that experience. Have a way of reminding yourself what that experience feels like so that you can return to it regularly. Because we all backslide. But to be able to recenter and recenter and recenter into that state, that is our preferred way of being. And then in that state, noticing that, oh, look, my thinking is very clear, or my emotions are calm, or look at the benefits of it. Oh, validate, validate.

And I think that you start to build a new physical habit, actually, of the way your body holds itself, the way we go about daily life. And then when that stabilizes, boy, you start to have very rapid, rapid, magical sort of shifts, like you're talking about, you know, like, things. You start to say it and, you know, within a couple hours, somebody calls you on the phone and offers you something. You know, it's like, I've had that happen, and it's like, oh, my gosh, you know, so it's all possible.

It's all possible. And I'd love. I know we're kind of getting close to wrapping up, but in terms of. Of dematerializing and materializing, I think you have very interesting thoughts on what it means to dematerialize by pulling attention away. That is part of this. This closing something and moving. Moving forward into a new experience and materializing the new thing. And also, I never forgot in frequency when I read, you know, you said when. Even when a relationship ends, both souls are ready for it to end. Even if one person feels like they got dumped or that they did the dumping and like a dumping. Such an aggressive word. But you know what I mean? And that was very. That kind of blew my mind when I read it. I think I read that in 2013. Just. It blew my mind a little bit. Like, because talk about the. The victim dynamic in a breakup. It's so easy to feel wronged by someone. And I never had considered or that I was doing the wrong and, you know, I don't know, but I had never considered that. That under the surface, like both of our souls together, we're ready to move on. And I'd love for you to just speak to that.

Yeah, I think that when you really realize, like, if we're just putting it back to a job or something, that's a relationship too, isn't it? It's with the people. It's with the whole thing that you realize that.

Their culture or their needs of the company is one thing. They're in a certain set of beliefs that are holding them. Them in that state. And that you've moved beyond it. It's like you've stepped out of that little cube and are standing on top of it now. You're not inside of it anymore. And so you're open to all kinds of new things so that.

You know that your energy has just increased like a whole into a new frequency. You don't match any. And so at the end of a cycle then it's sort of like take stock of what you've accomplished during that phase, look at why you did it, bring it into the present moment and say, look, this has been wonderful. I've learned so many things and now I'm finished. But I'm not wrong. And a lot of times, you know, when cycles end, we think something's wrong, you know, we're going to blame them or me or whatever, but it's not. It's just that it's, you know, the energy's done, it's like a physics thing. And at that point relax, get really quiet, allow some of that ripening time, that liminal space time where you can allow the ideas that are trying to surface or the new variables that are trying to combine to make themselves known to your mind. And of course you can't do that if you're still stuck in the old way of thinking. So you have to blank out a little bit.

And just, you know, and then of course, notice, notice, notice, notice, notice what is presenting itself to you in your own present moments. And then when you notice the things that are suddenly have a lot of juice or feel like that spring fever feeling, then go, oh, now let's look at that one a little more. You know, So I think we need that kind of softness at the end of a cycle to be able to.

Have conscious completion.

For a self entertaining noticing game. We've talked about this I think once before, but I love serendipity signage or synchronous signage where you go out into the world. So maybe you're in this place and you're like, oh, oh, I'm not noticing anything, I'm just down, you know, you still feel down. Set the intention. What am I noticing? Leave the house, go downtown, even if you're in a small town, go to Main street and just what are you noticing? What are the signs? What do the signs say? What are the billboards? The ads? Not on the side of a bus. You will see the quirkiest signage that is like talking to you. If you just let yourself notice with.

A little or song lyrics.

Light gaze. Oh yeah, song lyrics, definitely. So this Is really fun. I've played this on the subway where I just go, what am I noticing? And I see what text jumps out at me and you could really have fun with it. And just. Of course it's silly, you know, I'm not saying like, oh yeah, it's all been placed there just for you at exactly the right time. But hey, you never know. Crazier things have happened.

License plates are good too.

Yeah, totally. Or like going to the movies and like what's a character says something in the movie and you're gonna notice it. So in this two hours, just assume there is a message for you in there and what's the one that you notice? And like we can play with it like that.

Yeah, yeah, it's. Well, here we are. This is the self entertainment and the changing your life from drudgery and heaviness to a lot more light kind of openness and all that. Just, you know, it gets you on purpose. Purpose. You know, it's not a serious thing to be on purpose.

That's what I think you bring in that, you know, light and love in the, in this world, this space of conversation can feel kind of sometimes like a blanket. Like it's kind of heavy somehow. And you, Penny, I think, are a great advocate and just explainer of concepts like self entertainment is okay. It's not selfish. It's actually a high state of being. And in fact, it is the path. It is the way. It's not just something we do on the side when we need to recharge. Oh. Self entertainment is tucked into this little crevice of my life When I'm recharging from the real work of life and personal development. It's like the whole thing can be entertaining then that's actually such a gift to the world.

I remember I got this phrase in my head, I don't know, maybe 15, 20 years ago that I made. I put up a little note on my refrigerator. That was it. It said.

I can be bothered, upset and bothered, or I can choose to be amused. And so I just stared at that for quite a few years. I think it did something to me.

I love that. I love that. Yeah. Mine's a version of kind of like if I'm the one getting bothered, if I'm bugged, why? I just start to get curious anytime I'm in a state of being. Bugged, bothered, annoyed. I just. It's so frustrating to try to wait for other people to change. Maybe this is my inner control freak, like rearing its head in another way. But I find it so futile to just wait for other people to act as if I wish they would act or to behave in a certain way. It's like way easier for me to be like, if I'm bothered, like, how can I self soothe? Basically, how can I turn this around, stop noticing it. Sometimes we notice notice things. Like I'll notice someone chewing loudly and my attention zooms in. And they even have a name for this now. People get annoyed by loud chewing.

Right?

Of course, it's a pathology now, but I just gotta pull my attention out. Like I just need to stop noticing it. I don't need to tell this person, excuse me, can you please stop chewing your food so loudly? No, most likely I need to just pull my attention out and just redirect it somewhere. Like, we don't always have to fix everyone else around us. This is very different now than the toxic situations, but now nonetheless. Trying to get the whole environment to conform to our inner happiness set point is so difficult that I just find it easier to be like, well, how can I, what can I notice? What can I learn? For me, learning and noticing is a form of self entertainment because again, I start to watch the movie that's happening around me, not get sucked into it.

And isn't the need to have your environment agree with the way you'd like things to be? Isn't that a form of ego, of narcissism in a way? Isn't that the way toxic bosses operate or control?

You know, and even with the best of intentions, you're still exerting an environment of control. Like there's a lot even in the parenting space now, or even dog training about. It's a misnomer to think, well, I'm the owner, this is the dog, do as I say. It's actually a dynamic of what? Control versus how can you teach the dog to choose for him or herself activities you'd want them to do, you know, like for their own safety. But how do you get them cognitively engaged and involved and in choice, not just yanking them with the prong collar to go where you can because that's not sustainable. You're gonna have to yank them every time because they're not using their not cognitively grasping or learning or evolving. Evolving and creating a dynamic of trust. So we'll have to save the dog training for another day when I actually have.

Yeah, Penny, this is so fun as always. Oh yeah, we self entertain ourselves by doing these podcasts.

And look, it evolves so organically. This is now, I think our 11th conversation. So if you're new to this, you can go listen@pivotmethod.com pjshow and we'd love your questions too. I look at what kicked off from this question that Sarah so generously submitted. But if you want to submit one or you have a follow up to something we talked about today or you disagree, that's okay too. Pivotmethod.com/so and Penny's new website, which is so beautiful I'm going to put it in the show notes pennypierce.com but it's spelled uniquely in both names, which I read on her about page. It's like I've been unique ever since the spelling of my two names.

Thanks mom and dad.

Yeah. P E N N E Y P E I R C E. Someone did submit a question of what's Penny's last name? And I thought, oh no, if I haven't given Penny's last name, you gotta look up her stuff too. And Penny, what could we leave people with? What would be a parting word of wisdom or an encouragement to do a small experiment? I know we've given several, but anything you want to say to clarify what.

Comes to me is the word trust. And I think that when you're in a situation that almost like has outlived its usefulness, you know that you have to trust your own perceptions, trust your body. If you're living in a contracted state or feeling sacrificial, that is not allowing your own soul and your true self to just flow through you and bring with it all of your genius and your talents. Talent. So you've just got to trust that.

I love it.

I'm gonna build on that as well and say.

So often we again, I think we blame ourselves. And there's a lot I've had that even even out in the past. Prior to writing Pivot, I would kind of blame myself for my uncertainty or for being at a pivot point. I would think what's wrong with me? Why can't I just figure this situation situation out and so the self trust and I'll just build what Penny, I love what you just said of trusting your perception and trusting you can figure this out. So what if this is all unfolding purpose purposefully and perfectly? What if you didn't do anything wrong? What if you've actually followed your path and it's taken you this far and now you're ready for something new and what if that's exactly how it's supposed to be and. And that's Where I think these questions, you know, what would you do if you weren't afraid? Or if time, money, I always add judgment from others weren't an issue, what would you do? But you're gonna have fear, you're gonna be nervous, you're gonna be uncertain anytime our job is at stake or our livelihood. So I would just say, keep moving. How could you accept those parts of yourself that are fearful and insecure and unsure and just say, that's exactly. Those parts of me are doing their exact perfect job. And I am being called. I am being called to rise. I am being called to learn and grow and step into my next. My next purpose, even if it's not forever. And give yourself permission to notice that on no timeline. So I remember a time when I gave a client, she said, I really someday want to start my own business. And so, and so we walked through the exercise. Even if it's six months from now, how are you going to give notice at your job? No pressure. Let's just walk through the conversation just so that you have it in your back pocket. Well, as soon as we got crystal clear on how she would have that conversation within two weeks, she gave her notice because she just had the permission. There was no pressure. But she was so clear, she actually couldn't stomach to be there any longer. As soon as she got clear on what that would look like without the time pressure.

Yeah, I like that. Yeah. Because time is, you know, it's. That's part of the left brain thinking everything has to be linear. Once you get the felt state, the felt sense in your body of the reality of something, it can happen instantly.

I. And that is it. That's the nonlinear breakthrough that is. Yes. Awesome, Penny. Thank you so much for being here. Once again, what a treat.

It is my own self entertainment.

Me too. To be with you always. Always and again. If you want to check out other episodes of our ongoing Penny and Jenny show, it's like a side channel of the Pivot Podcast. Just go to pivotmethod.com PJ Show thanks again, Penny. And thanks everybody for listening.

Thanks so much for listening to this episode of the Pivot Podcast. Make sure you don't miss an episode or my insider tips and templates by signing up for PivotList, a curated twice monthly newsletter where I share the inside scoop on what I'm reading, watching, listening to and the latest tools I'm geeking out on. Sign up@pivotmethod.com pivotlist get show notes from this episode@pivotmethod.com podcast and connect with me on Twitter at ennyblake.

Remember, build first, then your courage will follow. Hasn't it always.