149: Career Homecoming with Laura Simms

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Quick note before we jump in. You are invited to JumpStart joy in 2020 with a live Pivot Podcast taping and Joy of Movement book launch party here in New York City. So if you live in the city, if you live in the area, or you just know somebody who does and wants to send them the invitation, Please go to pivotmethod.com joy the event is on Thursday, January 9th. Doors open at 6:30pm it's gonna be on the Upper west side and I'm just so excited to partner with some incredible women to help launch Kelly McGonagall, two time guest of the Pivot Podcast. Help her launch her new book Joy of Movement. We'll do a live podcast taping, then you're going to get a movement session led by Nia Black belt trainer Caroline Coles, accessible to all bodies to help us all experience gratitude, joy and hope and community. And then DJ Petra, my dear friend and two time Pivot Podcast guest, is going to bring us home with a dance party. You'll also walk out with a signed hardcover copy of Kelly's new book the Joy of How Exercise Helps us Experience Happiness, Hope, Courage and Connection. So again, this is all happening on Thursday, January 9th. I would love for you to join us and be there for a live Pivot Podcast and so much more. Just head to pivotmethod.com joy and you'll get all the details. And now back to today's show. What's next? This is a question we're all having to ask and answer more frequently. I'm Jenny Blake, your host of the Pivot Podcast and author of the only Move that Matters is your next one.

For show notes from this episode, visit pivotmethod.com podcast if Change is the only constant, then let's get better at it. Here we go.

I am so thrilled to be here today with Laura Sims. Laura and I have been traveling side by side in parallel Pivot paths and circles online for a very long time and this is actually our first time connecting live, so we didn't even catch up before we Hit record. We just said we're going to throw it all into the show. Laura is an expert in meaningful work who challenges conventional wisdom by asking people to ditch their passions and start with purpose. She's the creator of youf Career Homecoming, a celebrated career change program that helps people discover the meaningful work that's right for them. And, you know, I love me a good contrarian, so I can't wait to get into things. Laura's colorful career history includes a history degree, an MFA in acting, getting fired from a dream project, quitting multiple jobs teaching undergraduate and graduate classes, and a successful career as an actor where she worked on network television, performed in every state on the eastern seaboard, received multiple callbacks from Cirque du Soleil, and shared a sound booth with Sandra O. Of Grey's Anatomy Fame. Laura, welcome to the show. Hi.

I'm so glad to talk with you. I feel like we should have been talking, like, way long ago, so I'm glad we're finally making it happen.

I know, but maybe 10 years ago would have been a great idea. How long have you been doing your own thing now?

Actually, it'll be nine years in January. So, yeah, getting there.

And I just have to ask you, Cirque du Soleil, Are you serious?

I tried to run away and join the circus, Jenny. They wouldn't have me, but I got close.

Are you bendy and strong enough to even try out for Cirque du Soleil?

Well, not so much in the bendy and strong category, but I was there for physical comedy, so doing their kind of clowning roles. So I auditioned in Los Angeles. They have kind of a scout, you know, in different cities. And so I auditioned for their scout in Los Angeles, went through a couple rounds of, like, you know, performing original comedy routines. And then when they had, like, the big guns from Canada come down, I went through, like, two days of auditions with them. And it is the most intense and challenging audition situation I was ever in. Like, loads of fun. But, you know, you had to have prepared stuff, and then they would put you on the spot and give you 15 minutes to prepare something, and then you perform it in front of the group. It was. I feel like if I can get through that audition, that's my, like, I can do anything in life kind of moment. It was intense.

Not just that audition, but I have so much respect for actors who the nature of the work is to go for so many auditions and never hear anything back. Like, I just. How did you do it? How did you navigate that process of just constant I don't know if you experience constant rejection, but certainly that constant uncertainty of where your next job would come from.

Yeah, I mean, you really have to do some Jedi mind training around this because otherwise, I mean, if you take it personally and you're like, I got rejected again. Again, again, you will quit. I mean, you just, you won't be able to get up and go do it again. So, you know, you really kind of have to frame it for yourself that like, okay, the audition itself is a chance to perform. It's a chance to practice the craft. It's a chance to, you know, be in front of a room and hopefully do some magic. And, you know, sometimes, you know they're not going to hire you because really you didn't do a good job and you could have done better. And that's your own, you know, that's your own thing. But a of times you're not getting the job because you were too tall or too short or the producer doesn't, you know, you remind him of their ex wife. And so subconsciously you're not going to get like, there's all these things that have nothing to do with your performance that go into whether or not you get cast. And so really all you can really, you know, focus on and take credit for is, did I do the best performance that I could today? And so you kind of are evaluating each audition by that standard. And so if you didn't do your best, well, great, now I know where I need to go do some more work. And if you did, then like, you just kind of have to say, eff it, and go on to the next one because you can't. You have so little control over what they're looking for. And, you know, if you get the.

Yes or not, that's such incredible resilience, training for life and certainly entrepreneurship and careers as well.

Yeah.

I love what you said. I never had heard it put exactly that way, which is that treating the audition itself as an opportunity to perform an act, and that's not a means to an end. You can see it as a worthy and worthwhile event and time to practice in and of itself.

Yeah. And something that gets talked about in actor circles a lot is.

You would love to go book the job. What is more important is that you book the room. So if you're not right for that particular role, hopefully they're going to remember you. And when another opportunity comes up that you'd be right for, they're interested enough to call you back.

I've heard so many people get success with that. Even within companies, they apply for a role in internal transfer, they don't get it. And then they're discoverable. They're on that team's radar for the next thing. And then I've seen so many cool opportunities come that way.

Yeah. So book the room.

Book the room. I love that. Maybe that will go in the title. Tell us, what is a career homecoming?

Yeah. So.

I want people to have a career that.

Feels like home, that feels like it's a natural extension of who they are, where you don't have to put on a mask or have this alter ego that goes to work, and then you're a separate person when you come home so that the best of who you are, you feel like you get to show up and just be you for your work and your quirks and your humor and your strengths and all of that is part of it. And you don't have to go through this weird filter where I'm one person at work and I'm one person somewhere else. And it's something that is also really gonna. I mean, it can challenge you, we hope, but also nourish you in a way, you know, and play this really important role in your life. It's not just clock in, clock out, get a paycheck, go home.

One thing I see with a lot of career changers is fear and worry. So fear. Well, I can't really show up as myself or be home because either that's not professional or it won't be welcome or people are going to judge me. But there's also anxiety that who said that exists or that that exists for me? And you're a lot more on the ground with your course and doing this work. So I'm curious, how do you help people stay hopeful that that's possible and even give themselves permission to believe that that's possible in what can often be very long job search processes that. And I don't want to assume that it's going to be long. It can also happen in a flash. But just like you described with the acting auditions, sometimes people go months without any real feedback, and it's to no fault of their own.

Right. You know, one of the things that I work with clients on from day one, you've already said the word is resilience. You know, how can I be the person I need to be to go out in the world and do this work? And part of that is just getting the job or starting the business. So understanding that there are certain things you do have influence and control over, but there are certain things that you don't, and making sure that you're focusing on the things you can control and really not thinking.

I truly believe that.

When you understand what you have to offer, what you have to contribute, how you want to make a difference, the value of that, and you can go out and seeking the right combination of who needs that and how am I going to fit in with a larger organization or helping solve a problem through a business? It's not a matter of if, it's just a matter of when. And so, okay, world, you want me to play the time game? We're going to see how long this takes. Fine, I will play that game. But I'm not going to bag it because one person said no or 15 people said no. You know, I'm going to pursue this because this is my path, this is how I want to make a difference. It's going to take as long as it takes. Now, in the meantime, like, you know, maybe we got to get a side job or maybe you got to do something else to get some income coming in. But I just have, I have zero doubt that, like, when we get those internal things lined up about here's what I want and I can articulate it and all of that, it's just, it's figuring out the timing.

I love that. And I'm often referencing to clients and friends, no matter what they're looking for, be it a job or relationship. Tosha Silver, her book Outrageous Openness. There's this one line that the perfect job is already picked and on its way to you. And you could even add imperfect timing or the perfect partner is already picked and on its way, imperfect timing. And I find that thought, just like what you coach clients on, so reassuring that it's not a question of if you're going to find that career homecoming, but when. And sticking with it long enough, no matter what you need to do, to kind of bridge that time in between, to see that through and just having faith that it does exist. And you and I can say on the other side of the coin, we see so many people find that resonant work that it is possible, but it's not always on the timeline that people expect.

Right? And I think that, you know, something that you and I have is just longevity of seeing this happen for other people. I just have so much proof and evidence that this is true and that if you, you know, you know what you're after and you know the value of that and you, you stick with it, that it, it works out you know, and again, like, sometimes the timing is a bummer. I wish it would happen a little more quickly.

Start to see, like, the people who get frustrated and quit or move on. And, you know, I mean, you're allowed to Pivot. People can change their mind. There's no problem with that. But, you know, I just. I kind of think, like, what's the alternative? You know, what is the alternative to being hopeful and determined? I mean. I mean, what do we. What do we do with that dream? What do we do with that drive? I just. I'd rather go for it, even if it takes a while.

And it also. I used to remind myself this when I was single, that because I was single for a long time where I didn't have a.

Committed relationship, and I used to remind myself that I would kick myself if I had spent all those single years just in agony, feeling like, oh, I'm not good enough. Life is miserable. And I'd be so mad if the day I found my partner, I would then look back and think, what a waste of my life force. So I would kind of project myself into the future and say, by the time I meet someone, and I'm married now a year in, by the time I meet someone, it will be perfect timing, and I will want to look back on who I was and how I spent my time leading up to it as joyful and easeful and not in a constant state of fear, worry, anxiety, pining, you know, any of those things that I had, of course, experienced earlier in my life.

Right. And, you know, probably easier to fall in love with you, at least the right person when you are joyful and on your own path and doing your own thing. And, you know, I mean, that's attractive.

Right? Same for job seekers.

Yeah.

Since Pivot launched in 2016, I've had this side Evernote folder where I clip notes, articles about retirement. So I do think we need a new word for retirement. There are so many Pivoters that I meet who are maybe retiring in quotes from their main career that they had, but just because they turned 65 doesn't mean they don't want to work anymore. And I'm very fascinated by kind of career pivots that happen at that age and stage. And I know you've given a lot of thought as well to ageism. And I hear from clients more and more that they say as they're going for jobs, maybe particularly on the coasts or in the tech industry, where they. They say to me straight up, I am experiencing ageism. Like, I feel It. I see it, and who's in the offices. It's uncomfortable. And I. They have such a sense that they're kind of legitimately being passed up for opportunities or being told, oh, we're looking for digital natives, things like this. And I've never. Haven't talked about it yet on the podcast. And shout out to Mark Ross, who I know is doing a lot of work in this area, too. He's a listener. But I'm curious what your thoughts are on ageism. And of course, some part of this could be somebody's internal story, like maybe they're assuming that it's ageism when it isn't always. But I also do think there is a very real phenomenon that's happening, especially in certain industries. So I'm curious to hear your take on this.

Yeah, no, I think ageism is real. I mean, just like all the isms. All the isms are real. You know, what I try to work on with clients, and I'm less on the forefront of the job search strategy. Right. Most of the work I'm doing is about the discovery process of what do you want? What do you even want to do? Why does this matter to you? What are you going to go pursue? But what I'm always working with clients on is there are external boundaries and prejudices in the world that as individuals, we're not going to solve. I can't erase ageism for you. Let's do everything we can to remove the internal barriers, any mental garbage you have about how you're going to be perceived, what the limitations are for you. Let's do our best to get that out of the way and again, build that resilience. So if you do, you know, encounter ageism, ageism or sexism or racism or whatever out there, you're not going to take it personally, you're not going to crumple, you're not going to quit. And again, like, it's frustrating and it's not fair, but it's real. So what can we do to prepare you to go out and persevere?

Anyway, I'm so glad you mentioned the stage that you focus on, which is that discovery. And I'm curious, of course, to hear about why you shouldn't pursue passions and go for purpose instead. But also, I know you talk and think a lot about the identity shift that accompanies career homecomings. And I think it's particularly pronounced when someone's identity has been tied up with. With, let's say, the company they work for, like mine was. I was so afraid when I left Google, people wouldn't even want to be my friend. If I didn't work there, I would be of no value to them. I would not be an interesting person. And I was genuinely concerned about that. And that's when I. Only when I realized, only when I was leaving, when I realized how tied up my identity was with the halo of the brand at that time. So can you address that piece, the identity shift and the passion versus purpose?

Yeah. So in terms of the identity shift, I mean, this is something that I really struggled with, you know, making the decision to leave acting. It didn't feel like I was just leaving a profession. It felt like I was leaving.

A life. You know, I mean, for me, it was not just what will people think of me, although that was certainly part of it. But, you know, acting, it was my passion. It's how I had made most of my friendships. It's how I met my husband. You know, it was the way I made money. I think I derived a lot of, you know, personal sense of value from that. And then the thought of, you know, okay, well, I'm going to leave acting, it didn't feel like, well, what am I going to do next? It felt like, who will I be? You know, this has been such a big part of my identity since I was a child. You know, if I don't do this anymore, it's not just what job is next, Although that's an enormous, terrifying question, but who am I going to be without this?

And I see a lot of people go through it. Especially I think if you've done something either creative and artistic, or if you've been on a prestige track, maybe with a very well known company, right, where you feel like there's a certain amount of cachet with being involved and being associated with that level of innovation and creativity and all of that.

And so I think part of the work of having a homecoming in your career is just that idea of first coming back to.

A home within yourself. You know, fundamentally, who am I? You know, and that we as people are not defined by what we get up and go do from nine to five, you know, there's more to all of us than that. And if there was some disaster or you were involved in some horrible accident and you literally couldn't work anymore, that's just off the table for you. You know, what is your value as a human being? Who are you? If we strip away the context of work, And I think coming from that starting place is like, oh, okay, yeah, no, I'm Still a valuable human being. I'm still a good friend, I'm still a contributor, I'm still a creative person. I'm still able to come up with ideas and counsel people or whatever your thing is. But I think just being able to take off that jacket, like the work jacket, just take that off and think about who we are as people.

I imagine there was some of that going on with you as you made your pivot.

Wow, I love how you just described it as taking off the work jacket because.

There'S so many layers to that question. Who are you if you couldn't work anymore or you couldn't work again, or for a period of time, who are you and what's your gift to the world by your presence alone? And my journey has been grappling so much with that. Even in my, especially in my 20s, I would say I just associated my work was my worth, whether it was where I worked, what I earned, or even my side hustle, even being an author, launching books do, having a blog. And I didn't, I did not even grasp the full extent to which I associate my identity with my, my work, my output, what I do. Until I met Michael, my husband, and he's Lebanese. So in Lebanese culture, it's all about relationships, family and community. If you go to a social event, nobody, the first question is most certainly not what do you do? Nor is your value as a person defined by that. People are so much more about your heart. Like it's a very loving culture, warm, loving, welcoming. So it's like the light in your eyes, the quality of your heart. Who are you being? That's how my experience of being in Lebanon, it has been that way. Whereas here in the States, it's like you are what you do.

Yeah.

Where do you work? It's what we do all day. It's what we obsess about. Like the quote American Dream is. It's. I, I even looked it up the other day. It's like the ability to pursue our best work, you know, and earn healthy rewards for doing so and just. It has nothing to do with being the American dream. It's about achieving and owning.

Yeah, we are little achievement bots here.

Yes. And we don't even realize that. I think compared with other cultures, and I know some vivid podcast listeners, many are not in the US but we don't even realize, I think those of us who are US based, we're in the water. We don't even see the extent to which our identity is tied up in ways that other cultures are not well.

And I think culturally, we have this nobility around struggle. You know, like, ooh, I've got to do it the hard way. I'm going to work the hardest. I'm going to overcome the most stuff. I'm going to have the biggest transformation from having it rough to doing really well. And one thing that I'm, like, shaking my clients to beat out of their heads, this idea that you get moral brownie points for doing things the hard way, you know, like, what if your work wasn't a struggle or a hustle or a grind? You know, that's not to say that you don't have to show up and participate. You know, like, there should be effort involved. Like, I always want people to do work that is going to challenge them to stretch beyond what they thought they were capable of. That's exciting. But, you know, why does it have, like, why does it have to be so hard? Why do we feel like it doesn't count unless we bled in sweat for it? You know, I just. Ugh. It's very. I call this kind of. This whole thing. I call it the Boomer blueprint. This idea that, you know, we've got to work hard, and that's its own reward. And you just wait until retirement before you can enjoy your life. And, you know, the harder, the better. And you just pick one thing and stick with it, and it's just. It's exhausting.

Well, pivot listeners know my motto. Let it be easy, let it be fun. And nothing has taught me the lesson you just described more than entrepreneurship. Because there's no reward for hard work. Things don't succeed simply because you work hard or you stress yourself out or you work long hours. That doesn't guarantee anything, actually, and I'm sure you've experienced this too in your business, that just because you work hard, you're not entitled to anything. Whereas even in a corporate environment, if you're. If you are sitting, seen and perceived as working hard, maybe you'll get good feedback. You might even get promoted. But in the business sense, it just doesn't work like that.

So that was a. That was a reality check. I know when I started my business, I did. I had this mentality like, if I. The harder I work, the more money I will make. And it is absolutely not true. It is not true. Like, I would, you know, just labor over creating some new thing, and it would just, you know, launch to crickets, and I would be just devastated that I put, like. But I worked hard, so why isn't it paying Off. And, you know, a lot of times, like, my business is so streamlined now. I'm always, like, trying to find the edge of what's the least I can do to create the most impact? Because it's not that I just want to be, like, sitting around eating bonbons all day. That's not, you know, invigorating to me. But I'm trying to find the spot of, you know, what. What is going to be the most effective way to, like, still having pleasure and joy and playfulness in it, but, like, what is really going to move the needle? What's going to make a difference in the business? What's going to make a difference for clients? And it's not just working harder and doing things with the most struggle.

Absolutely. And what about the pitfalls of passion?

Yeah. Okay, so disclaimer. If you're listening and you have followed your passion and it's working out for you, good. Just, like, keep doing whatever is working. I'm all about, let's do what works. You know, I got into acting because it was my passion that worked for me for, like, a decade. It was amazing, and then it wasn't. And so, you know, I really am speaking to the people for whom that hasn't worked, and it's not going to work. You know, the whole follow your passion, I really think of it as a backlash to that Boomer blueprint. You know, follow your passion is all about just play. Do what is rewarding for you. You know, do what's exciting for you. If you love it enough, the money will come. You know, just as long as you're happy. That's what matters. And again, if that is working for you, keep going. You know, it assumes, one, that you have a passion, and a lot of people just don't. They don't have one thing that they're like, oh, I'm going to make my entire work around this one passion. It assumes that it's possible to monetize your passion, which is not always. And it also assumes that the activity you're engaged in.

Is what really matters when it comes to doing meaningful work.

Right. So I'm always shifting towards let's orient instead of around passion. Because even if you're doing something you're passionate about, let's say that you are, you know, a musician and great. You. You're gonna follow your passion and you're gonna, you know, play your violin.

Let's say you. You know, if you don't have an audience for that, if you don't have a feedback loop, for that, if you're not in relationship with anyone, like, how many hours are you gonna sit in an empty room and play violin before it starts to feel empty? Like at some point you want it to affect someone or to interact or there needs to be this give and take. And so I'm always having clients instead of passion, start with a sense of purpose. Just because I think it's more sticky and it's more practical. So with a sense of purpose, we're looking at things like, okay, how do I want to contribute? What kind of difference do I want to make? How do I want to interact with people? What impact do I want my work to have? And yeah, we're going to look at your strengths and abilities. And if playing the violin is part of that, well, then let's, you know, we'll consider that. But it's just such a purpose is about relationship and connection to others, and passion is generally about your own experience of an activity. And it's just very different ways to very different starting points. In terms of career, I have never.

Heard those two such common career words put that way that passion is your experience of an activity and purpose is oriented more about others. Wow. Love it. I'm having my Oprah, oh, aha moment. You know, I even talk in pivot about project based purpose and taking the pressure off of having to define even a life purpose, which can be so lofty and intimidating as well. And I say, and if you don't have a purpose, you can borrow mine, which is to be as helpful as possible to as many people as possible. And it doesn't even have to be all about the numbers or quantity, but just as many people who are in my orbit, who I interact with day to day, that's it. Just show up with positivity and helpfulness and that's it. And I never really know exactly what form that's going to take, but that's been a long time guiding light for me. And true to your definition of the terms, that one really is about other people. And I had never thought of it that way.

Well, and I love how you're, you're saying, let's take the pressure off that we have to find this life purpose. You know, I tell clients what we're not trying to figure out is what is your, you know, predestined one ring to rule them all. Capital P, life purpose. Like, personally, I just, I don't believe in that. But professionally, in terms of career stuff, like so much pressure, I have to decide today what the guiding force of My entire existence is. And then find a job that like too much. So I'm always trying to make it smaller and more grounded with the, you know, with the realization too, that our sense of purpose changes over time and that's normal and that should be happening. You know, what I was deeply, you know, cared about and was fired up about at age 16, I'm 40 now, is not exactly the same. I mean, there are some through lines and there's some continuity, but, you know, what job I might have picked right out of college may not speak to me today at this stage of my life. So allowing ourselves to not be locked in like so many people, I feel like they want their. I need to find my why, like my capital wy. I need to have like this tagline or this one liner that kind of encompasses what I'm all about. And I just like, you're not a brand. You don't need a slogan like, let's figure out what you connect to, what matters to you, and go from there without the pressure of finding the one thing.

And that pressure to be a brand and CEO of you Inc. Is more. There's more of it now than ever.

I know. I see that, that a lot. Especially like, you know, in Instagram kind of places where it's like, you are your brand. With all due respect, I am not my brand. Like, I'm. I'm a person and I'm. I have faults and quirks and weirdness and like, stuff that people in my personal life are gonna get exposed to that people, like, through my brand aren't. Just because I don't feel like it's appropriate, that doesn't mean I can't be human or I can't bring myself to it. But if I'm here to serve, you don't. You don't have to know what I eat for breakfast. You don't have to know what book I'm reading to my kid at night. I mean, I can share those things with you, but my work is like, it's an extension of who I am, but it's not the entirety of who I am. And I don't feel like I need to have every relationship and moment of my life be like a teachable moment that I can share, you know, Like, I. You don't get all of me, you know, Like, I have my own private and personal life. And I think, I think it's healthy to have some of those boundaries.

I am smiling so big over here and laughing, cracking up, because I gave almost the exact same. I call It a rant, which is what I did on my friend Ksenia's podcast we recorded yesterday. It's called Woke and Wired. I don't know if it will be out yet on her show, but I ranted about Instagram and why I and I even why I pivoted off of Jennyblake Me and over to pivotmethod.com because exactly what you just said. And this goes to show we are truly kindred spirits. Because I just said I don't feel good when I sign off of social media after I've been scrolling Infinite Scroll. I don't feel better than when I started. It distracts my focus. It gives me this piecemeal feeling throughout the day. It's not where I do my big ideas or my deep work. I don't like the feeling of guilt and obligation of responding to comments every time I post one thing. Great, now I created, you know, 20 more, even if they're so nice. But most of all, I don't want to be judged or followed or anything because of how I look, how I dress, what I ate for breakfast, even what my bookshelves look like. I mean, I have posted those on my account. I post on Instagram maybe like twice a year.

And I would just. I'm with you. I like having some distance. Not to be, not to hide anything. Anyone who has attended anything I do live knows I'm a complete open book. But I don't want to build a brand around my image. I prefer for it to be around my ideas. And if I share aspects of my personal life, that's cool, but not. Not how I'm gonna create value. It's not for me. So I'm with you.

Yeah. And personally, like, I get burned out real fast on feeling like I have to document my life experience. And again, I think this is like, go do what works for you. You know, if you are rocking out Instagram and love it, then keep going. But, you know, I don't wanna.

Come up with a life lesson every time I go to the park with my child. Like, I just want to be at the park with my child. You know, I don't reinvent these little Kodak moments, you know, because, like, oh, you didn't catch it on camera. Like, I just, I just want to.

Go to the park, you know, I'm the same way.

And I mean, I think business wise, like, if I'm being honest, if I felt it would make a tremendous difference in my business, I would probably do it more often. I think too, like.

When it comes to my business and the work I do, the metric that I care most about is lives changed. Right. I want to be doing deep, substantial, lasting work with clients. And if it's not helping me do that, it doesn't get that much of my attention. And honestly, if I thought Instagram would allow me to do that more, then I'd probably be on Instagram more. But so far, it's just not been a necessity. So I think.

You know, social media, especially Instagram, for me, I feel like I do like it. I mean, I like to get on and scroll and, like, I follow famous pets and. Me, too.

Oh, not famous ones. I just follow.

Yeah, it's. It's kind of like I like Instagram. Kind of like I like. Like a cinnamon roll. Like, it's delicious at first, and I like it every now and then, but, like, I don't want to sit down and eat a can of cinnamon rolls every day. That's how it starts to make me feel.

Oh, that's so funny. I love the cinnamon roll analogy. Yeah. The thing I love doing on Instagram, I follow puppies, dogs, piglets, little piggies, rabbits. That's how I like to. That's what I like to look at. I don't even follow quote cards or anything. And I get annoyed when it. The algorithm. Like, I accidentally tap on too many people's posts, maybe in my network, and then they start showing me the people. And I'm sorry, I love you all, but just not. It's not what I go. It's not my cinnamon roll. My cinnamon roll. Are these cute little animals.

Oh, there's a raccoon that's more famous than me. I'm in. I'm on board.

I'm following. I know. And my experience was similar in that.

I don't like walking around the world. It really stopped me from being present because I would be experiencing something and then thinking, well, why don't I take a photo of this? Or, how can I share it? Or, what will I just like you? What will I write? And I realized, like, I just don't want that extra filter, to use an Instagram term, on my experience of the world day to day. And, yeah, I think I do rant about this a lot, and maybe Pivot listeners are really sick of hearing me talk about it, but I feel that it's important because it's, again, the idea of career homecoming, whether you're working in an organization or working for yourself, is that permission to just say, be honest. This doesn't work for me. Even if it seems to be working for so many other people. And there are absolutely influencers who are creating incredible opportunities and income for themselves by doing exactly what we're saying we don't enjoy doing. But that just goes to show that there's room for all of us.

Exactly. There's more than one way, you know, and I think, you know, in a true homecoming, you're paying attention to what you know, maybe how successful and effective something is for you, but also just how it feels, you know.

And it just doesn't feel that good for me.

Even your bad noise, we have the same one. Another interesting thing you've said is, you've talked about is why you shouldn't necessarily take a break to figure yourself out, as a lot of people are inclined to do when they're pivoting. What's your take on that? When does it make sense to step back and take a break and dive into oneself? And what's the flip side of that?

I mean, I love taking a pause, you know, and taking a break and doing a deep dive into yourself. The problem that I see people run up against is that when they are trying to figure out, okay, if I don't want to do this job I'm doing, I got to figure out what comes next. They don't, they don't have the tools, the strategy, a process to figure it out. And so what they're doing is like this personal development quest where maybe they're journaling a lot, maybe they're reading self help books, maybe they get really into tarot, maybe they go see a therapist, maybe they're doing strength assessment kinds of things. They end up with information about themselves and they have all the self knowledge and maybe they're a more evolved person, which is always good, but they still don't know what do I want to go do. You know, they don't know how to answer that question. Like they know that they're a people person or they're an introvert or, you know, connection and community are their strength. But like, then what? Like they don't know how to bridge that gap between all this personal development work and how to apply that to a career. So I've just, you know, I've had clients who have come to work with me. They're like, I gotta, it's just time, I just need time. And so they take six months off or they take 12 months off and they don't, they still don't know what they want to do. And so now they still don't know what they want to do, but they have lost six or 12 months of income and now they're really feeling the pressure of like oh crap, now I really got to know what I want to do, but I've taken this time off. I'm not any closer. I'm almost more confused than I started because I have all this information but I don't know what to do with it. And so that's kind of the danger and the red flag about that, you know, I mean I think it's always great to learn more about yourself and do personal development stuff, but you've got to know how to bridge the gap between fun facts about yourself and then what does that mean for your career?

Speaking of these big questions, we are turning the corner into a new decade.

No pressure everybody, you know, but I'd love to know what are one or two of your friends favorite exercises when it comes to helping people find that homecoming feeling?

Okay, it's hard to boil that down to one or two exercises.

Jenny, Give me your whole body of work, Laura, right now.

You know, I guess like my go to starting place that I use for myself, that I have clients do is just I love a blank sheet of paper and at the top simple question, what matters most? And then just write, you know. And the only trick with this exercise is you have to be honest. Hahaha. The only trick. So what comes out may be about quality of life stuff, it may be about mission and purpose, it may be about the environment that you're going to be in or the kind of people that you want to work with. It may be about your health or something that feels a little bit in the sidecar. But I'm always trying to get people to come back to what is most important, you know, and again that's going to shift over different periods of time in your life. But I'm just kind of grounding it in now, in this moment. What matters most?

Oh, that's so good. That's so good. That's such a great. I love you said even about the state of your business these days, that it's you. I think you use the word simple like distilling something down to the essence. And that's such an amazing question to do that. What matters most?

It keeps me out of busy work. You know, I will do that for myself quite often if I'm looking at my to do list and I'm like, oh, there's no way I'm gonna do all this today. I'm like, well I probably don't have to what, you know, what actually matters most in terms of accomplishing things today. And then there's like three things on my to do list, and that's a doable day, so I'll use that. Just like, in terms of paring down my to do list, I will do that. You know, kind of end of year, beginning of year planning. That's. That's my go to.

How's your. What does your planning look like? So as we enter 2020, what's your preferred way to think about the year?

So My birthday is January 1st.

Wow. So I almost feel like I have.

This reset, you know, along with the. Along with the rest of the world, just in terms of my birthday. So what I love to do is I kind of percolating and thinking about business stuff and personal stuff. But usually on the 31st, what I like to do is just, like, hole up by myself for several hours, like with the candle and the tea and the, you know, all that stuff, and just have time to write, you know, and sometimes I'll find prompts, you know, from somebody on the Internet or a book or something. But a lot of times it's just me and blank sheets of paper just kind of doing an inventory of what just happened in the last year. Like, what. What just happened personally, professionally, you know, just kind of looking back and taking stock and. And taking some time to. Before I even do any goal setting, really thinking about, you know, just, what is that vision I want? What is the. What is the feeling? What do I want to be able to experience in the next year? And from there, I'll tend to, maybe on another day, go back through and kind of set more, you know, goals that have numbers and things like that. But I really just like to have time to think about what just happened and, you know, what do I want to be different in the next year? And it's. It's really not more structured than that. It's a little different from year to year. But that's kind of my. My new year birthday ritual.

And birthdays are such a powerful time of renewal as well. It has always felt like my own personal New Year. So fascinating that yours is right at the same time. And you're a Capricorn, huh?

Indeed.

Aren't Capricorns known for just being really diligent and able to just put their heads down and work, get things done? You probably enjoy working to some extent.

I do. I'm. I'm a double whammy because I'm also a firstborn. So I've got, like, Firstborn. Capricorn.

Yeah, you know, I read that Shonda Rhimes of Grey's Anatomy and all the rest of her shows that she's a Capricorn. And now that's who I associate. Like, yep, there it is. Just that incredible ability to.

Focus and create things. So cool. Amazing. Well, Laura, this has been so fun. I'm really thrilled that we got to connect after all this time. And it's so clear to me now, having had this conversation, how much we really do have in common. I think we've known that about each other for a really long time.

Jenny. I would say I'll see you on Instagram, but I know I won't.

Exactly. I won't see you there.

Talk to you on our next podcast, whatever that may be.

That's so funny. So even if not on Instagram, where can people find you if they want to learn more and keep in touch?

Yeah, I'm@yourcareerhomecoming.com and, you know, occasionally I will pop on social media, you know, so. So come along. But you know, the best way to really connect is just kind of get a little bit deeper into my world. You know, I've got a Facebook group, I've got a nice free training. So just, you know, come let yourself in and we'll connect.

And if you do want to follow Laura's whenever they may be posts on Instagram, it's at yourcareerhomecoming, correct? Is that right? Okay, cool. Laura, thank you so much. This has been such a delight and I look forward to keeping in touch and hopefully many listeners as well. Thank you again for being here.

Thanks, Jenny.

Thanks so much for listening to this episode of the Pivot podcast. Make sure you don't miss an episode or my insider tips and templates by signing up for Pivotlist, a curated twice monthly newsletter where I share the inside scoop on what I'm reading, watching, listening to, and the latest tools I'm geeking out on. Sign up@pivotmethod.com pivotlist get show notes from this episode@pivotmethod.com.

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Remember, build first, then your courage will follow. Hasn't it always.