151: Joy of Movement with Kelly McGonigal

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Quick note before we jump in. You are invited to JumpStart joy in 2020 with a live Pivot Podcast taping and Joy of Movement book launch party here in New York City. So if you live in the city, if you live in the area, or you just know somebody who does and wants to send them the invitation, Please go to pivotmethod.com joy the event is on Thursday, January 9th. Doors open at 6:30pm it's gonna be on the Upper west side and I'm just so excited to partner with some incredible women to help launch Kelly McGonagall, two time guest of the Pivot Podcast. Help her launch her new book Joy of Movement. We'll do a live podcast taping, then you're going to get a movement session led by Nia Black Belt trainer Caroline Coles, accessible to all bodies to help us all experience gratitude, joy and hope and community. And then DJ Petra, my dear friend and two time Pivot Podcast guest, is going to bring us home with a dance party. You'll also walk out with a signed hardcover copy of Kelly's new book, the Joy of How Exercise Helps Us Experience Happiness, Hope, Courage and Connection. So again, this is all happening on Thursday, January 9th. I would love for you to join us and be there for a live Pivot Podcast and so much more. Just head to pivotmethod.com joy and you'll get all the details. And now back to today's show. What's next? This is a question we're all having to ask and answer more frequently. I'm Jenny Blake, your host of the Pivot Podcast and author of the Only Move that Matters is your next one.

For show notes from this episode, visit pivotmethod.com podcast if Change is the only constant, then let's get better at it. Here we go.

Hello everybody. I am delighted and overjoyed to have my Dear friend Kelly McGonagall here with us today. Kelly is such an incredible person, a long time inspiration to me, friendor mentor from afar. She's a brilliant health psychologist who specializes in understanding the Mind, body, connection. You can see why I adore her. She's the best selling author of the Willpower, Instinct and the Upside of Stress, which she was on the Pivot podcast previously in episode 40 talking about with me. And we are here talking about her latest book, the Joy of How Exercise Helps Us Find Happiness, Hope, Connection and Courage, which explores why physical exercise is a powerful antidote to the modern epidemics of depression, anxiety, and loneliness. Kelly, welcome back to the Pivot podcast.

Thank you. It is so good to be back. I just want to thank you publicly. You know, you were the first person who I told about what I was thinking of doing with my next book all those years ago. And part of it was because you have such a great way of encouraging people to dream big and pursue the thing that really feels alive and meaningful in that moment. And I was like, right. I. It was when I really wanted to do this and I wanted to make this transition and come out as somebody who loves movement and it's such an important part of my life. I just remember so clearly you asking about what I was most passionate about and me just expressing for the first time this part of my life and what I wanted my next book to be about. So I feel like you are. What would that make you? Not the godmother of fairy godmother, but, like, what would that make you for this book? I'm not sure. Thank you.

Well, thank you for saying that. And that blows me away because episode 40, I mean, it was so early into my podcasting journey, and I'm just gonna put bounce that compliment ball right back to you because before we hit record, we were going to talk about the upside of stress and you were saying, you know, we could just talk about anything you want. You're like, the book's been out for a while. Let's just talk about what's here now. And so as I listened back to that interview more recently, preparing for this one. Yeah, we talked about movement for half the time and your music and your EDM Christmas playlists. And it's so fun listening back, seeing that those were the early sparks, or at least of you talking about it publicly. And this merging of who you are that you've been teaching group fitness since you were 22 years old, which I think a lot of people wouldn't know about you as this Stanford professor, multiple bestselling author. It's just such a cool and important part of your life that I love seeing front and center in this new book.

Yeah, and important is exactly right. It was so Funny, I've always felt like it is the most important thing that I. Even though I think the outside world doesn't necessarily view it that way, I've always known it's the most important thing I do. And I've always said it's the one thing. If I could only do one thing for the rest of my life, if my body allows it, I will continue to teach movement. So finally, now out in a public.

Way about it, you also said, I asked you at that time, I said, if your writing were a food, what would it be?

Did I say oatmeal? Yes, you did, because that's my favorite food.

Yes, you did. You said, I hope you put down this book with a heart that is full. That's. It was so beautifully written. That's why I wrote it down, that you will find yourself thinking how marvelous, how miraculous we humans can be. But in the previous podcast, you had said you'd be oatmeal because you'd want to be like, comforting and warm and heart centered and make someone feel warm and cozy, like with cinnamon and cardamom. And so it was so cool seeing.

This oatmeal and nourishing.

Yes.

And you know that's true. You know the reason that I said that in writing, so that quote you just pulled was from the introduction to the book, and that was how I felt doing the interviews for the book. One of the most amazing things about writing this book is when you ask people whose lives have been enhanced by movement to tell you their story about what running has meant to them, or swimming or rowing or dancing or powerlifting, the version of themselves that people present is miraculous. I have never, for all the books I've done, all the classes I've taught, I've never seen such a consistent portrayal of human strength and vulnerability coexisting and.

The delight in our interdependence, the fact that we humans need one another. That came through in every interview I did for this book, where the topic of the interview was, tell me what running means to you, Tell me why it is that you train at CrossFit or whatever the activity is. Every interview was exactly the same. And that's so I was hoping that I would be able to make readers feel the way I felt when I was doing the research for this book. There's something about movement. When you find the right form of movement and you let it become a part of your life and you let it connect you to others.

It brings out that version of our shared humanity that I find so beautiful.

Well, this is what I love about you being the specific person to write this book and bring it into the world. Because you bring all that delicious brain science, but you merge it with this incredible heart connection and heart center. And this book is called the Joy of Movement. But it could also be called the Joy of Connection or the Joy of Community. And that comes from.

That's the secret subtitle of every book I wrote, by the way. Really? Of course, I'm always trying to whisper, like, by the way, connect, social connection, relationships, compassion, helping.

That's really the heart. That's the secret medicine of everything. But, yes, particularly with this book and that. I loved that. It wasn't my agenda. It was what was revealed to me through the research.

Say more about that.

Well, I started off thinking I was going to write a book that would explain this phenomenal, consistent research finding that around the world, people who are physically active are happier. They have more satisfaction with their lives, more meaning in their lives, better relationships, less loneliness, less depression. I mean, there's just. There's so much research, epidemiological, every country that's ever been studied, every age, every physical health condition, every socioeconomic status. I mean, there's just extraordinary research showing that people who exercise are better off psychologically. And so I thought, well, I'll just explain that and talk about it and help people find a way to find a movement form that really works for them, that makes them happy, that's not about burning calories, but is about finding joy or helping to relieve depression.

And I just didn't realize when I started the book how much of the joy of movement is the joy of connection. Even if you are moving by yourself, say, taking a hike in nature and feeling connected to something bigger than yourself. That transcendence that people often report when they are by themselves but in nature, that kind of like unity sensation, or the neurobiology of the runner's high, which seems to prime us not just to feel good when you're exercising, but it actually primes our brain to take more pleasure from connecting and cooperating with other people. It's like at every level I looked at it, it seemed like our ability to take joy in movement and our ability to have our brains changed in positive ways by regular activity. That every way you look at it, whether you're looking at the neurochemistry or you're looking at the relationships that are created in the communities that form, or the psychological experiences people report that it just kept coming back to human connection and interdependence. I was delighted to discover that, particularly the neurobiology of it. The idea that when you exercise, your brain enters a state that facilitates social connection with others. As someone, I. I am kind of like a. I don't know, socially anxious, shy person. And it's not my default to find it really easy and natural to just be open and connect with everyone, even though I desire it. And I discovered early on, without knowing that, of course, after I teach a dance class, I'm a totally different person than, like, the shy, nervous person who shows up and is fiddling with my music.

Arriving versus after having exercised for an hour, where I love everyone. I find it so easy to connect, and I just. I never want to. To leave. I don't know what I thought that was, but now I know that it's part of the neurobiology of what happens when we get our heart rate up and we sweat a little bit. And anyway, so that's just an example of the. The way that the joy of movement is really the joy of connection. But, yeah, so it's fascinating to discover.

There's so much. So much of good stuff in there. The runner's high part blew my mind, I have to say. I'm gonna.

And let's. For. Yes, for listeners, let's clarify. You don't have to run. I am not a runner. I love runners. Some of the best people in my life are runners, but I don't run. And you don't have to run to get this.

Well, you say it's. It isn't really a running high. It's a persistence high. You just have to do something that is moderately difficult for you and stick with it for at least 20 minutes. But the part that blew my mind is where you say the neurochemical state that makes running, or we'll say persisting gratifying may have originally served as a reward to keep early humans hunting and gathering. What we call the runner's high may have even encouraged our ancestors to cooperate and share the spoils of a hunt.

That just blew my mind, Kelly. Like, we know that exercising feels good even when I'm in a low and I'm not doing it as much as I know that I would feel good to do. I never thought of it that way. That. Why do we get that persistence high? It's so that we are then more open to connecting, cooperating, and sharing our resources.

And to be clear, this is my hypothesis. So the shared hypothesis. The shared hypothesis among anthropologists and a lot of neuroscientists is that we feel good, we feel Better when we are physically active. In part because about 2 million years ago, to survive as a species, humans had to start hunting and gathering in a much more vigorous way. They had to become more physically active. The idea is that somehow natural selection helped harness our brains. Neurochemicals that are related to pleasure and relieving pain, hijack them or repurpose them to make physical activity rewarding. Everyone knows that endorphins can be released when you're active. But I think people now recognize that another neurotransmitter, endocannabinoids, are really behind that basic persistence high. Endocannabinoids relieve pain, they relieve anxiety, they make us more optimistic, which is a really interesting psychological effect. It feels like anything is possible and you should just keep going, which is really good when you're hunting for food and you haven't found anything yet. But they also enhance the pleasure of social contact, including cooperation. Anthropologists will tell you all day long we have this persistence high to make sure that we keep hunting and gathering, that we can do the labor so that humans could do the labor of persisting in order to feed themselves and their tribe. But I was so fascinated by the fact that endocannabinoids clearly play a role in the social aspect of being human and other social species as well.

And so I started asking the anthropologists, could this runner's high be part of why early humans survived because they were willing to share what they were able to collect and hunt and gather. It's not like I killed an antelope and now I'm eating it by myself. Good luck finding your own dinner that early humans had to share to survive. So that's what I'm bringing to the literature. I'm speculating about that, But I think that it's a really fascinating hypothesis that is consistent with both the evidence and also people's direct experience. A lot of the people I talked to for the book also reported that exercise primes them to be a better version of themselves in relationship to other people, Whether it's people who have social anxiety who feel braver, or whether it's parents who feel overwhelmed. But if they're able to take that time for themselves to exercise, they come back as a parent, more patient, better able to engage a better partner, a better leader, a better manager. And I think that nowadays we don't necessarily have to share the spoils of our hunt, but we still need to be this version of ourselves who is able to connect with the people in our lives to share and cooperate and take pleasure in that, and it seems like exercise really enhances our ability to be that version of ourselves.

And you do cite so many stories in the book of people who say I need to exercise so that I can be a better, in a better mood for the people around me or even families who troubleshoot by saying, dad, can you just go for a run?

You know, and people do this for you because my husband will literally say, kelly, I think you need to do body combat. If I'm like, like there's specific prescriptions for specific states of mind.

Well, oh, I, oh, I love that. And not only your power song, like a song prescription, but then the actual movement prescription. And I have to give a shout out my brother, his life. One of the things I admired so much when they were raising their. They have two children when they were babies, and still today, the one thing they prioritized was how to help the other one get exercise.

Oh yeah, I've heard that.

That's amazing that they did that because it'd be so easy to be like, oh, we're both so sleep deprived and neither of us have time to do it. But they.

Or it's self indulgent, which is what so many people fear. That if you take any time for yourself that you're being selfish or neglecting an important role. And I think one of the things that the science is very clear about is if you have found that exercise supports your mental health and well being, you should lean into that and use it. And it's not selfish. It's self care that allows you to be available to others. I think people differ on this. There's some people like me, for whom it is as important as insulin is to someone with diabetes. For other people, they may not be the most important thing to do for self care, but man, if it is, it's.

It's absolutely right to prioritize it.

I know my dad, brother and I have always talked about how crucial exercise is to just being sane and even keel. And my dad calls it pay for the day. You gotta get moving, otherwise that energy is gonna kind of go sour in your body. And I guess we're just like that. Maybe we get it from my dad's side. But one thing that I find confusing, and I'm curious to hear your take on this. I entered a phase of my life and business this year where I stopped exercising as much as I used to. I got married, moved into a new house, really restructuring the business. And I'm not trying to make excuses, but every time I got to my yoga Mat I didn't have the same energy that I used to have for like five super intense classes a week. And it's this very weird split between knowing vigorous exercise would be so good for me and then not doing it and not having that body feeling of wanting to do the same movement that I did in the past. So I'm curious, what do you say to people who might intellectually know that movement is so vital but have a sense of inertia even like me, where I'm at, or a phase where they don't feel that same motivation?

Yeah, there is like, my mind is spinning because there are nine different things I want to say about this.

You could say all nine. Let me start.

Let me start with a couple. I want to go to a version that is a little bit. A little bit, I think, deeper than the version you presented because it's something I've lived through and I think is actually really important to mention. During depression, periods of depression and periods of grief, your brain actually changes the way it relates to movement. It will actually impair your desire to move. It's just a form of withdrawal. And literally, you will feel like you can't move. You don't want to move. When you do move, it takes so much longer to trigger anything, like a persistence high. Your ability to feel better from movement is impaired because your brain is functioning differently. It is trying to get you to go into a cocoon. It's not trying to push you out into the world to engage with life. And so many people going through a period of depression or grief who have previously gotten a lot out of movement, joy, energy, optimism. It's another thing you have to grieve. Like, why is my body betraying me now? And having been through this myself and looking at the research on this, even when you are not getting the immediate feedback that you're used to, movement helps you move through those changes that take place in your brain during depression and grief. Sometimes you just have to make a bargain with yourself that accepts the reality, just like in grief itself, that this is different than I wish it would be. And I'm going to choose to do this as a way of taking care of myself and getting through this with some sense that even if it doesn't feel great right now, that it might feel better in the future. And I can get through this. Sometimes you have to choose movement as an investment in your future self. Even when your brain is not providing you the same pleasure and joy or relief that you've experienced in the past and that that literally Helps your brain recover from these temporary states that really push you, literally impair your ability to move your body and take pleasure from it. So when I think about the example that you gave, I actually think I pull back a little bit and think, is it the case that you shouldn't be moving right now, or is it maybe something else is needed at different times in our life. Every movement has its own rewards. Every form of movement makes you feel a different way about yourself. It affects your energy and your mood in a different way.

It has a different psychological meaning. What it means to say, get on the mat and do something you've always done, or what it means to go outdoors and push yourself harder than you've ever pushed yourself before, they all mean something different. And so for someone like you, maybe has a lot of experience and it doesn't feel connected to something like depression or grief, My question would be to give yourself permission to explore other forms of movement or to invite yourself to do what feels right in this moment, knowing that it's going to be available for you when you're ready for it, to really treat it like an experiment. Rather than think that, like, this is my thing and because it doesn't, I don't feel like doing it now, then it sort of has to be all or nothing, or I have to make myself do it. Because in the past, this was the thing that made me feel so good. We need to give ourselves permission to change and grow, both in sort of short term and in the long term. And. And then there are other people for whom it's a matter of the resistance. That was two of nine. I'll just say one more and give you a moment to jump in if you want. But another reason that people don't want to is often we have past experiences with movement that involve being shamed by others or self criticism and self shame related to our bodies, how we look, how we move, how we age, that complicates the intrinsic joys of moving our bodies. And so sometimes the resistance isn't just like, kind of like a I don't feel like it. But it's like when I think about this, it brings up stuff other than I believe this will be good for me, or I believe this might be fun, or, you know, I want to build community in this way. There's also, what if I get there and people stare at me or make rude comments? What if I get there and I don't feel like I belong? What if I get there and I find out I can't do it? Anymore. This thing I used to be able to do 10 years ago, and now after this illness or this injury, I just am not able to anymore. And how's that going to feel? And so I think there's a kind of compassion we need to have for ourselves and a thoughtfulness about the movement we approach, how we approach it and where we choose to move and with whom so that we can try to sidestep some of that stuff that gets so complicates movement, when really movement should be a celebration of our bodies and an opportunity to build community. And you have to really challenge yourself to figure out where that's going to be and give yourself permission to run screaming from places that are reinforcing some of the reasons that we resist movement that are related to body shame or belonging or self criticism or fears.

I love everything you just shared. So much resonates. And two things come to mind. One, for me, there's also now a comparison that I have to work to dissolve to my past self. It's not even to other people in the class. It's that I'll be in Pilates. And instead of the thought saying, this is hard, I can do it, it will be. Remember when you could do this so easily and you didn't even think that it was hard? And that connects to the second piece, which is that is a micro experience of what people who get seriously injured or sick or further along in the aging process experience. And this was really illuminated for me when I had Eric Weinemeier on the podcast. He's. He went blind. He lost his sight in his early 20s or late teens. And he went on to climb Mount Everest and kayak the Grand Canyon. And he started this incredible organization called no Barriers. And he said one of the biggest things he had to grieve was he wouldn't be able to do things the way that he used to. And I'm so glad that in this book I can tell how much. I don't even know if it took effort for you, honestly, because this is so much who you are, but the stories are people of all ages, all levels of health, a lot of adversity, a lot of recovery. By no means is this a book for like fitness junkies and fitness junkies who look a certain way, you know.

People who love movement. So just to give listeners a sense of what you're talking about. So. Because I do this very intentionally and also it's because who I am and what I care about. So of the stories that you're going to hear about Some of my favorite one was a class I visited that is a dance class at Juilliard for people with Parkinson's disease and every level of progression, including people in wheelchairs who can only move with the assistance of a caregiver. And it's an extraordinary dance class. I visited DPI Adaptive Fitness in Fairfax, Virginia, which is an incredible, almost like boot camp athletic training center for people with serious disabilities, as well as neurological diseases, stroke survivors, people with traumatic brain injuries, people who have lost limbs, people in wheelchairs, people with cerebral palsy, you name it. And they're doing incredible athletic training, both to improve their physical function, but also as an expression of who they are.

Actually, this didn't even make it into the book. But there's a lot of research looking at the use of movement and exercise in hospice care, which I really think challenges people to change their mindset about what movement is for. So in hospice care, you are at the end of life. Nobody thinks that if you exercise, you're going to somehow reverse your cancer or cure your disease. This is not about fixing the body. It's not even about prolonging life at this point. The people in hospice care will tell you it's because it's how they know they're alive. And when they are using their body with whatever they are still capable of doing that they feel in that moment, more hope. They feel alive, they feel a sense of purpose, and they often will do it with other people. There's that ability to connect. And I think if you can accept the idea that at the end of life, when there is nothing, there's no relationship between what you're doing and this sense that you're going to save yourself through exercise or be able to touch your toes when you couldn't yesterday, that you would still choose to do it. Because in that moment, it's how you know you're alive. That I feel like. When you understand that.

It really clarifies what the purpose of movement is and what is possible, even if you are dealing with serious injuries or physical illnesses or mental illnesses, that there is a version of movement that is possible for in almost every state of being alive. And even one example at the extreme for somebody who was unable to move but was still able to listen to music and have a sense in her body of being able to move because of how music activates the movement system of the brain, that even when you can't move, you can be moved and access the part of you who takes joy in movement. It was very important for me to write a book that reflected the full range of being in a human body and. And the joys that are available to us.

In bodies that have lived life in sort of every way imaginable.

I love what you're saying. And hope, courage, and resilience are such themes in this book. And I know in your work as well, this is really. Your body of work is about compassion and heart, hope, courage, connection. So it's so interesting how you shift the conversation around movement, and it's right there in the title, Joy of Movement.

Do you know how we got that title? Please share. That was not the original title of the book. My publishers had picked something else, both the subtitle and the actual title. And I really didn't like it. And I had, in my home office, while I was writing the book and while I was revising it, when I was revising it, I went through the book and I underlined every word, every image that was important to me that really reflected the heart of the book. And they were words like hope and connection and courage. And I took a picture of those index cards that I had posted on the wall of my office. I took a picture and I was like, you need to get these words in the title of the book, and you need to get joy in the actual title. So that's how we ended up with it.

Wow. I love it. I love it. And you cite. How do you say his name? Emil Durkheim.

Oh, yes, Durkheim. I'm like, who? We're going, yeah.

Oh, yeah, Durkheim. I just can never say his first name. I always just default.

I'm like, who are we talking about?

Yes, Durkheim, Yes. Collective effervescence. Like, how good is that? Just the sense of joy. And what you just said, too, of unhooking the idea that movement. And I don't know if this is uniquely American or if it's like this across the world, where somehow in America, exercise almost gets perverted, as it's a means to this end of the world, either how you look or, okay, preserve your life somehow.

But it's like, that's actually pretty universal in Western societies, as far as I can tell, because I have heard that and seen that reflected back in a lot of the. You know, I spoke to people again. A lot of people didn't make it into the book, but I was speaking with people teaching movement in Saudi Arabia and Japan and throughout Europe. And you hear this tension emerge pretty much anywhere where there is organized movement, in part because the research is so clear. That exercise is Good for your health. I mean, it is.

And yet, if you make that your primary motivation, research also shows it seems to get in the way of experiencing other joys. If you think of movement purely as medicine that you need to choke down in order to get a better body down the road, it actually impairs people's ability to take pleasure and movement while they're doing it, and it makes them more likely to quit in the long run. So it's kind of a funny thing. As a health psychologist, I would like to think maybe knowing that you are preventing cancer, recurrence of cancer, or heart disease, or improving your brain health, that'd be really motivating. To be honest, it is not at all why I exercise. And the research suggests it's not what motivates people who are able to make a commitment. They make a commitment to movement because they discover that it's a relationship that really supports their actual lived well being, not their future self. But in the moment, they enjoy it, or they feel good about themselves afterward, or it allows them to interact with people in a meaningful way. I mean, so many different joys, but those are the things that keep people committed to movement.

And you say that movement is actually at the center of so many rituals in all societies around the world.

Yeah. One of the best parts of writing this book was watching videos on YouTube.

Oh, my God.

My own little anthropological research, since I didn't have the resources or the ability to go to be an anthropologist in hundreds of places to see how or to go back in time. But you can see these amazing across culture, the rituals that people use for labor and for celebration, wedding dances.

And watching farmers in Tanzania who sing and dance while they farm. And the rituals of collective movement and synchronized movement that cultures have used to prepare for battle. And it's just. It's there that we. We experience things more powerfully when we involve the body. And often when we move our bodies together, we tie our fates together in a way that's very clear to our nervous system. We get it that when we are moving with other people, we are linking ourselves to them. And it's one of the ways that society strengthens ties. One of my favorite rituals I wrote about were the fire walkers. I don't know if you remember that example, but in this little village where people carry a loved one across hot coals, and it's this big ritual that everyone loves to watch. And I think it's like a metaphor. And so much of movement is a metaphor. And in that particular ritual, the metaphor is, I'M going to endure physical pain to rescue or support a loved one. So I'd put my husband on my back and run across the hot coals. And it's such a metaphor, and it's been ritualized because it's a way to express and celebrate a community's interdependence. And so much of what we do now in movement is the same thing. You see the same thing happening in Tough Mud or obstacle courses, and the same thing happening when people are running 5ks or half marathons or when people are helping each other out in a group fitness class. So much of movement is like a ritual, even when it's done in situations like a yoga class at a community center.

Well, I love the example, too, that you shared of Caroline Cole, who's the senior director of Fitness and Wellness at the JCC in Manhattan, Upper west side. And we're going to put a pin in it because we're doing a live event for Kelly's launch, speaking of community and celebration. But you tell the story in the book that Caroline teaches nia, a movement form that integrates dance, martial arts, and yoga. And she had to figure out how to honor a wedding, a funeral, and a birthday all in one class. And she did. And it's this beautiful story of space, like just holding that space, creating that space, and through movement and through music. I mean, we cannot leave music out of this conversation because it's such a huge part of the book, and I know of your life as well, but the power it has to move us and honor all three of those things even in the same class.

Yeah, And I think that, you know, so she talked about making the theme of that class experience the joy of movement, which is. It's actually the. The core principle of NIA as a movement form. And the idea that the joy of movement isn't necessarily about feeling good about everything in the moment, that the joy of movement means making room for joy in the middle of all of these experiences we have in life. That joy can be co present with grieving. And they got to literally embody and express that in a class ritual that literally moved from celebrating a birthday and celebrating a marriage to having a tribute to this woman who had lost her husband. And this idea of putting his spirit and their memory of him in the center of the circle and then setting him free, that you got to actually experience what it's like to make room for all of that. And I think this is one of the things that's so powerful about movement, is when you embody Something. There's something concrete about it that allows you to know things in a really deep, visceral way. In that case, it might be what people were experiencing was. It is possible for joy and grief to coexist literally. It is coexisting, and we are moving through it and making space for it. I think about another example in the book. A woman who was severely depressed and planning to take her own life. And she went to the gym and had a personal best in a deadlift of all things. And she sensed her own strength in such a visceral, concrete way that she decided she wanted to live literally, because she sensed her own strength. And she did something harder than she ever thought she could do. And that made her realize that she could choose life. And I think that movement is amazing in this way that it can give us these experiences that are transformative because they concretize deep truths that help us endure or that help us realize things about ourselves and what's possible.

That's such a powerful story. Thank you for sharing it, even here. What's your biggest hope for this book as it starts to make its way out into the world?

I feel like I should say my biggest hope is that it motivates people to move. But by the time I was done with this book, my actual deepest hope was that thing that you started our conversation with, sort of the oatmeal quote. Because I realized that writing this book had healed my heart in some way because it showed me aspects of human nature that are just good. And I feel like the whole story of my career, everything I've been interested in in my research and my writing and my teaching is this conflict between the worst part of human nature and the best part of human nature. Whether it's willpower and we're talking about these competing instincts, or we're talking about compassion and the competing instincts to try to relieve suffering versus protect ourselves. I'm so fascinated in this. And this book just kept revealing to me the good, the good and the good and the good individuals and in human nature. And I tried to write a book that would make people feel the same way because it was so heartening to me. So my deepest hope for this book is whether or not you ever decide to move your body, which I hope you will, that just reading the book will make you feel better about what it means to be human and that it was not my intention when I wrote it. Did it make you feel better? I love being human.

Yes. It's the kind of book I think you just have this huge smile on your face. Like, it's so deep, it's so moving. And. And, yes, it absolutely don't.

You. Are you in love with the people in the book? Yes.

You just. They're so inspiring. I could just see you. I could see you, like, filled to the brim while working on it. And it shines through so much. Like, really, I just. I'm so odd. So we're just watching and seeing the progression of your career that you've just described. But this book feels like you just had so much fun and were so uplifted and loving and in love, you know, with everyone that's in it and with the material itself and inspiring and.

Not, like, in an infantilizing way, because sometimes you point to people's stories. You're like, oh, that's so inspiring. But in a way, it's kind of dehumanizing. I don't know if you ever had this experience.

I mean, inspiring in a really deep, profound way.

Not using people's recovery stories or whatever to Chicken Soup for the Soul or whatever. I mean, really. No, it's just. Just the ordinary things that people said were so moving. And.

These human beings, these characters in this book, are both remarkable and utterly ordinary in the human strengths that they reveal. They just had the courage to be willing to share them publicly. So I found that inspiring.

The part it makes me fall in love with, too, is the deep intelligence of our bodies. Like, I often will say to people, like, your body's like a dog. I love dogs. But it's like, you gotta take care of it. You gotta walk it, Give it enough water, give it affection, you know? And also this book, for me, really just reinforces just, our bodies are so smart, and they're so beautiful and brilliant and resilient and just such a. An incredible teammate that we have in this life and our soul's incarnation.

So can I share the one thing that made me marvel at the body and why we should be so grateful to the body? So this is the Hope Molecule thing, which is, I thought, was the most fascinating scientific insight that I came across doing the research for this book. So one of the things that researchers have discovered in the past decade is that your muscles are basically an endocrine organ. An endocrine organ is an organ that secretes chemicals, hormones, proteins into your bloodstream that can affect every system of your body, including your brain and all your other organs and your health and your immune system.

But we didn't know that your muscles are manufacturing molecules that get secreted into Your bloodstream, when you contract your muscles that only through movement, through exercise or labor or walking around, that when you use your muscles for physical activity, your muscles are like, oh, I guess we're engaged in life, better protect our body and our brains. And so your muscles secrete these chemicals into your bloodstream that do all the things that make exercise great for your physical health, like kill cancer cells and reduce inflammation and help your immune system and regulate your blood sugar, all of that. But your muscles are also secreting chemicals that affect your brain health in really powerful ways, including helping to prevent depression and helping people recover from stress and trauma. And like, literally the only way to access these molecules, this pharmacy in your muscles, is to contract your muscles to move your body. It's like there's a whole intelligence in your body that is in your musculature. And I like, that is a truly phenomenal new understanding of what it means to be a biological human. This really is a massive insight and a shift in how we understand physical health and functioning. I mentioned hope molecules, one of the first papers I read that talked about this. They actually dubbed some of those chemicals that your muscles secrete during exercise hope molecules. Because one of the effects that those particular chemicals have is actually detoxifying the residue of chronic or traumatic stress. That when you're going through very difficult, difficult experiences, sometimes that physical stress can actually change your brain in ways that we know are not helpful, can increase your risk of depression, for example. And your muscles actually produce chemicals when you exercise that detoxify that residue of stress in your bloodstream so that it cannot get to your brain and affect your brain in harmful ways. And the scientists call that, they called them hope molecules. Like, it gives us hope, and that's phenomenal. And that you could exercise and think of it as literally an intravenous dose of hope. You are injecting hope molecules into your bloodstream from your muscles. So how is that for how smart the body is?

It's incredible. It's. It's incredible. It's miraculous, as you say. How marvelous. How marvelous. How miraculous we humans can be on every level. Mental, spiritual, physical. It's like. And this is so good, too. I mean, you have a PhD, you're a professor, you're an author. So you definitely have this exquisite life of the mind. But what I love about you, Kelly, is how much you advocate for the life of the body as well.

Yes. And you know where that comes from is living in a body that really does not cooperate. Or does that seem like it doesn't Cooperate, you know, for two reasons. I've had chronic pain as far back as I can remember, as well as chronic anxiety that manifests as physical symptoms. I'm sure the two are connected in some way. And. But. So I basically, I feel like I was born into a body that felt like a hindrance to happiness.

I went through growing up. I was like, I wish I didn't have a body. Is that a possible human experience? Could I be a human without a body? And so a big part of why I've been drawn to movement and yoga and psychology is to figure out a way to make the body.

A vehicle for life in a way where I didn't feel like I was at war with my body or that I was separate from my body in some way. And again, movement in all of its forms. And yoga was particularly helpful in this regard, really changing my sense so that I really sense myself and my body as being.

One, as opposed to being a person who's dragging around this burden, if that makes sense. Yeah. And I really. I. I think that, you know what, in teaching movement, you know, whether it's yoga for people with chronic pain or whether it's a dance class for people with aging bodies that I want people to have an experience in, that movement of their body is being a vehicle for the things that they love about life. And it, you know, really comes through, I think, in dance classes, where you are experiencing a type of joy that can only. Only be felt through the body and the way that the body responds to music so well.

Speaking of movement, joy and music, we are gonna be creating a movement experience. Can you share with listeners? This is coming right up, Thursday, January 9th. Kelly's gonna be in New York City, and our friend Petra had this idea. Let's do something for your book launch here in New York. Caroline, who we talked about and is mentioned in the book. So the four of us are doing a unique launch experience, but Kelly had some very specific thoughts about it. Do you remember what you said to us?

No, what did I say? I'm sure I said that. Had to be a dance party.

Had to be a dance party. Had to be for all bodies. Absolutely. And you were like, I do not want to just be the center of attention. This is not about me. This is about community, movement and connection.

Yes. And so we are having the book event of my dreams where I get to kick it off with you in conversation with you. So we'll talk about. I think we're especially going to talk about, like, the one thing that's my Favorite part of the book that we did not talk about at all. So people are going to have to. We are going to tape this conversation so it will be on your podcast, but we are going to talk about collective joy, which is my favorite joy of movement. It is the joy that comes from moving with other people in a shared space, often to music. So we'll talk about that, and then we're going to give people a direct experience of it. Caroline, who is a black. Black belt knee instructor, which means she's a phenomenal instructor and trains other teachers, and she's going to lead a movement experience that is really designed to bring out feelings of joy and gratitude and hope and connection through the body. And again, specifically designed to be accessible to whoever shows up. She teaches a wide range of classes. Moving to Heal. She knows how to. This is. Is whoever. Anyone is listening, and you're like, I probably can't do it. You are welcome. And there will be a version of this movement that is available to you. So we're going to have that movement experience. And then Petra is going to DJ a dance party while I sign books and meet people. And we're going to actually let the attendees help curate that playlist by asking people what they want to dance to. And I actually did this on social media for another event. The playlist that people come up with is so fascinating when you just ask people what song would make you want to move or make you want to dance. And it was so wonderful. Now I have a playlist that is called the Songs People Want to Dance To. It's on Spotify, and there's such genius in that playlist. And so we're going to try to create a little bit of genius and encourage people to dance and connect and move with one another while I sign books. And I don't know what else is going to happen if people stay long enough. I might actually teach a little flash mob dance sequence. If people are still there, then. I was thinking about this. I actually tried this out at a book talk recently where anthropologists know there are certain movements of the body that reliably evoke joy and express joy. And so I choreographed a very simple dance routine to a fabulous song that uses the signature joy movements of stomping and swaying and stretching your arms in the air and bouncing. And it was so much fun. If people stick around long enough, I might bring that out.

Ooh, that sounds so fun. Yeah. It was so fun collaborating with the three of you to put this together. And I love how you just said, I Don't even want to be center stage at this point in your career. Even beyond this New York book launch, you're just loving to collaborate. And so yeah, live Pivot Podcast NIA Movement with Caroline, DJ Petra on the music with help from everyone in attendance, book signing and then who knows what. And as I learned before we hit record, there may or may not be sequins. So oh yes, come dress to move. But also I plan on, I plan.

On coming at the disco ball that is. That's.

I love it. And just so you all know, Kelly was in town and we all had coffee and she had a printed schedule of the classes she pre registered for in New York. That was her priority. Every day was one or two movement classes. So she is definitely walking the talk.

That's right.

Dancing the dance.

Kelly. This has been so fun. For those of you who are New York based or want to come, even if you were just coming in from out of town, go to pivotmethod.com joy and I'll make sure that redirects to the event information and registration page. And Kelly, where else can people find you if they want to keep in touch?

On my website, kellymcgonigal.com or if you just look for Kelly McGonigal on all the major social media platforms, you'll find me. Me.

Amazing. The book is called the Joy of Movement. How Exercise Helps Us Find Happiness, Hope, Connection and Courage. And if you want the show notes from this episode, we'll hunt down that Spotify playlist Kelly just mentioned and all the other goodies we talked about. That's always@pivotmethod.com podcast thank you so much Kelly. I can't wait to do the live version for I know, me too. Yeah. Part two coming right up.

Thanks so much for listening to this episode of the Pivot podcast. Make sure you don't miss an episode or my insider tips and templates by signing up for Pivot List, a curated twice monthly newsletter where I share the inside scoop on what I'm reading, watching, listening, listening to and the latest tools I'm geeking out on. Sign up@pivotmethod.com pivotlist get show notes from this episode@pivotmethod.com podcast and connect with me on Twitter Ennyblake.

Remember, build first, then your courage will follow. Hasn't it always.