153: Behind the Podcast — Increasing Serendipity Surface Area — Mic Flip with Matthew Thompson

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Those small little gestures, they're really, really cheap. They don't cost a lot of money. They add a little bit to the process, but I think they go a long way in making people feel valued and I think ultimately that should be the goal of all of our interactions. You know.

This is your time. How can we earn twice as much in half the time with joy and ease while serving the highest good? That is our guiding question here at the Freetime Cafe, your home for heart based business. I'm your host, Jenny Blake. Join me for conversations with authors, friends and fellow business owners as we explore ways to free your mind, time and team to do your best work. Now onto today's show.

Welcome back everybody. I'm so excited to be here today with Matthew Thompson, AKA producer Matt. Matt was the producer on a show that I did with another former Googler, Tony McGarrihan. It was for their Three Points podcast. I'll put the link in the show notes and I had so much fun being a guest seeing their process, how producer Matt orchestrated the whole thing that when Matt reached out to me, he said, why don't we flip the mic and I'll talk to you about free time and systems and process so we can just geek out live for your audience. I instantly said yes. So I'm really excited to do a mic flip today. Producer Matt loves helping entrepreneurs around the world unlock the power of podcasting. Over the last five years, he's built a system that protects founders from the pain of podcasting so they can focus on having conversations that add value, build relationships and grow their business. Matt, welcome to the show.

Jenny, absolute pleasure. Thank you so much. And it's so cool to see how you do your intro behind the.

By. Cool. As I said, it's just one less step to do after we hang up. So I figure I do it live. It's never perfect, but it's done.

Yeah, but I think that's a really good place to start because something that I used to do, I think the first 100 episodes I did on my own show, I used to sit down after the interview and spend probably half an hour doing an intro because I would do so many awkward takes and I'd be like, no, no, that's not perfect. That's not just right. And it actually became a source of real pain in the process and something that I really didn't enjoy doing. And that took a lot of the joy out of podcasting for me. So I love that you've kind of arrived there as well. I think it's important because something that you talk about in free time is the idea of making it easy so you can enjoy the process. Right?

Yeah. And I find that those friction points, they seem small, but they add up. And all of a sudden we were talking about video before we hit record, and a lot of people say, you should record your video. Or sometimes I record in person and we have a video file and then I don't do anything with it. And I have found that if I tip too far over the edge of friction inducing additions, I will stop doing the thing altogether. And like you said, it kind of sucks the joy out of it. And then the whole project is at risk.

Yeah, absolutely. Because it's your energy that's really fueling everything, isn't it?

I would say so. And like, where I get challenged by this is that sometimes I think about ways I could improve the show. Or for example, I was talking to another podcaster friend about how they prerecord the introduction to the episode by reading the guest bio. But also, here's what we talked about, and they kind of give the overview of what you're going to find within the episode. And they were saying how they think that's a really important service to listeners, so listeners can see if they want to listen or not. And maybe there's a teaser or some kind of open loop, something that sparks curiosity. And in my head, intellectually, I'll be thinking, yes, that sounds like a great idea. But then in practice, if I had to record a separate thing where I'm synthesizing the key points for every episode, in my mind, it almost doubles the work, as silly as that sounds, even though it's a five minute preamble to the recording, 100%.

I mean, you know, because you've been in the game long enough, the fun part is the conversation. So for me it's how do we get as much of that as possible and reduce everything else so that only the fun part remains? And I think for a lot of the customers that we work with, that's what they want. They want to jump on and have the conversation, and they don't want to do any of the painful bits at all. And I would rather do three podcast episodes than do one intro, if that makes sense, because it's just so much easier. You get to bounce off somebody else. You get in the flow and ultimately it's just way more fun. It's funny the different styles people have. You know, I know you and I kind of were brought up on the Tim Ferriss Kool Aid, and his style of intro is very different to someone, say, who else is massive, like Joe Rogan, who does no intros whatsoever. And so I think there's actually a lot of freedom and flexibility for you to do whatever works best for you. And, you know, ultimately listeners are buying into you. They're buying into the journey that you take them on and your editorial and your creation in terms of who you have on the show. And so I personally stay away from long intros. A lot of the shows we produce, we have a short maybe 22nd one, but I think that's what text is for. You know, whenever you click onto an episode description, that for me, that's how I decide whether or not I'm going to commit to it. And then usually once I'm in, I'm in.

It's interesting, the two examples that you gave as well in terms of titling, because you can tell that Tim Ferriss puts a bunch of keywords in there. Sometimes I laugh at how long the titles are for his episodes, and I think good on him because he gives you so many salacious bits in the title alone. And then you have Joe Rogan completely sparse, like it's just the person's name in the episode title. And then the show notes have nothing at all. Maybe one link about the guests, just their podcast or a comedy special, but definitely not a bio. And so you're right, it is so different. And both of those are very successful shows. There's even one podcaster that I met at a kind of networking thing, book launch party here in New York, and he doesn't read in a guest bio at all because he doesn't want listeners focused on what the guest has done. He just wants them focused on the idea. So you're right, everybody gets to pick their own style. There's so many variables you could tweak that it's hard to know, well, is this just my quirky style, or would the show actually be much better if I did some other type of process or improvement?

100%. I think it's knowing, like the classic Seth Godin thing. Who's it for and what's it for? So I think if we stick to the example of Tim and Joe. Tim is a real educator, like, you know, he wants to give people knowledge, whereas I think Joe Rogan is a little bit more of an entertainer. And so I think there's a really big difference between podcasts that we listen to to switch off and unwind, and podcasts that we listen to to learn. And so I think because Joe is more in that look, you know, just, it's been a long week, stick it on, you're taking the bus home or whatever it is, it's more about relaxing into a longer conversation, whereas other podcasts are a little bit more like business to business orientated. It's like, boom. These are the bullet points that you're going to want to take away from this. These are the learnings we're going to give you upfront because we're trying to teach you, I don't know, a skill or a way to make your business better or whatever it is. And so I think knowing who your audience is and how you're trying to serve them kind of help influence a lot of those decisions. But ultimately it does come down to personal preference as well. I know in my show, it's called Best of Belfast, it's a local show where we just interview really interesting people from Northern Ireland. I've just started as soon as the guest walks into the room, just hitting record. And usually the opening of every show is the sound check, which is like, what did you have for breakfast? And it's such an endearing little human insight into the person that's going to be having this big conversation. And for me and my audience, that just works as opposed to something that's high frills, really, really slickly produced, which is, you know, stuff that we do for some of our customers. But I'd love to know areas of your podcast and process where you've leaned into that imperfection and made it a little bit more part of your brand almost.

Yeah, that's interesting to think about having it be part of the brand. Well, for one thing, I'm not afraid to talk about the fact that I'm awkward on almost every single interview. And I, I do Genuinely, even seven years in, I feel awkward. 90% of the time when I hang up with a guest. It doesn't even matter if they're a friend or someone I've never met. I always feel awkward and I always know where I got weird or I used filler words. And I'm not afraid to talk about that, and I'm not afraid to hit publish on that, because again, it goes back to this show wouldn't exist at all if I was waiting for it to be perfect. And even going back to the process thing about recording a separate intro with what topics we cover, I noticed that by the time I finish a conversation even like this one, if I don't do it within five minutes of us hanging up, it flies out of my head and I don't remember anymore. And so then even the starting friction to sit down two weeks later or even two months later when the episode's about to be scheduled and I have to go, what on earth did we talk about again? And the mountain of practice prep just to do that five minutes again, not worth it. So I try to be really discerning about diminishing returns. So I'll think about something like that, and I'll go, how worth it is it? What's the 8020 on that? Is that gonna make or break my show? Or is it something that has diminishing returns? Like, for me, as we talked about before we hit record, adding video, for me personally, the ratio of effort to potential return is too low. I don't want to worry about what I look like, what my room looks like, the clutter in my house, the lighting, if I have makeup, how my hair is today. I'm wearing a sweatshirt that my friend Dori and I got in California. It's called the Lucky Llama, this really cute cafe. I just want to wear my Lucky Llama hoodie and then turn video off to record. So I know I'm now repeating myself, but if I don't honor those things that do make it joyful and fun, what's the point?

Yeah. And there is something so special about camera off. I don't know why. It's like the ability to look around the room. Sometimes I close my eyes whenever I'm really trying to formulate a question. And it's funny. Now, adding in video components. One of the things that is going to be really important is that I don't have to look at myself and I don't have to look at the screen, you know, so trying to maybe find a camera that can be set up on an angle in such a way that it makes me feel like I can kind of be. Back in the garden shed over Covid, we did a an episode a day for 100 days, which was crazy.

Look at you.

We learned a lot, and it was embracing that imperfection, learning to do things more live, because I'm sure you have a very similar experience. When we started out, I think it was taking us, like, something ridiculous, like, 10 hours an episode, and then we added video for, like, two or three, and it was like 30 hours an episode. And we were like, this is not going to work. We're going to have to get a little bit more done. Is better than perfect around here. And learning to kind of embrace the fumbles and the stumbles, Doing things live as much as possible, I think really saves a lot of workflow. That is really the big obstacle, I think, for most small businesses, whenever they're thinking about starting a podcast, they're like, yes, I would love to do this. I see the value. It could be amazing, but. And then all they see is this huge mountain on the other side. But there are ways to make that mountain infinitely smaller. And I think that's where some of the free TIE principles will come in for podcasting.

Yes. And I would be remiss not to say that I say it a lot, but hiring one Stone creative, that was the true breakthrough for me. And just like the way people hire you, for me, that was the moment of escape velocity, because up till that point, I still owned the life of the episode, and it all hinged on me. And I was the one that needed to move the card across my notion Kanban board. And if I didn't do it, it stopped in its tracks. And I was the bottleneck constantly, no matter how many subcontractors I was delegating to, because no one owned the process but me. And now. So I think a game changer. Yes. You have to figure out how you're going to get the budget and justify the budget, because most likely the podcast is not going to just directly pay for itself with ads, although it can certainly be a great marketing tool for other things in the business. But hiring them, they own the life of the episode now, and that changed everything.

Well, it turns you into talent, doesn't it? As opposed to the producer.

I feel so fancy now.

You're like, big time, where it's like, you know, I just show up and I just hit the microphone, and then I get out of here.

Today's even more relaxing because you did all the prep.

That's next level. That's some Gary Vee stuff where you're going on other people's platforms just to generate content for yourself. I like that. I like that stuff, I guess.

So, like, this is quite a luxury that you're interviewing me for my show. Maybe I somehow reverse psychology you into this.

I was thinking about this on the bus in the way, and I was like, oh my word. This is a great opportunity to like talk shop with somebody who's been in the industry for a long time. We have a studio space in a place called Ormobass, which is in Belfast City center, and it's this amazing tech hub surrounded by all these incredible entrepreneurs. But I'm the only podcaster, so I'm like, mate, this is my outlet to talk about some of the nifty tips and tricks and tools that I really, really enjoy. So I. At what point did you hand over the production reigns to your team?

That was at the start of 2022. And the reason I did was that my book was launching in March. So the free time podcast I started in March 2021, fully a year prior. And I kind of had pivot on the back burner, but it still had a pulse. The reason I finally caved and against my inner cfo. My inner CFO is a bit more frugal than my risk taking CEO. Against my inner CFOs fears, I said, and this was really a lot of coaching and reinforcement from my brother who he's in real estate, he does commercial real estate, runs his own business. And he just was saying, you have got to buy your time back. Basically, he said to me, there's no excuse. You can't keep doing all these little bits and pieces and not doing bigger revenue generating things in the business. Just like you, I kind of enjoy. I enjoy all the nuts and bolts of the different steps. None of it was a burden in and of itself, but I knew that I couldn't launch my book and give the book launch its proper due if I didn't start to delegate, nor could I maintain two shows anymore. So I think it was just hitting a breaking point, realizing this won't be sustainable.

And hey, it's clearly worked. I mean, free time. You guys just picked up a bunch of awards, right?

We did, we did. It's now an award winning podcast. Yes.

That's amazing. It's like being on a bestseller list for a book. It's like you can now just hold that over your audience forever. It's huge. Love it.

And these awards, FYI, they cost a lot of money to enter.

Isn't that the funny part of it? Yeah, I know.

That's kind of the racket of it all. I probably spent at least $2,000 entering for different podcast awards because I entered a bunch of them. And then sometimes you're paying $300 per category would enter it into best episode, best show, best host. And I wanted to give it the best chance I could. And then Matthew, you know, so I got two W3 awards. Gold for best podcast in the consulting category and professional services and then silver for best host. Come on. And the second part of the racket is that I paid $250 for little statuettes. A gold one and a silver. Oh, no.

Did you have to buy your own statues?

Of course, of course. That's what I'm saying. It's like part of the racket. Now. I have these two gorgeous trophies essentially sitting right by the tv. So Michael and I look at them every day and you know, like, I didn't hide them in my office. I put them kind of where guests can see them. That's me being like cheeky, I guess. See, there's my. Anyway, it's a reminder like I'm taking this seriously. And now I don't think I'll spend two grand every year entering podcast awards, but to get a little nod, a little ribbon, a little trophy, just the once to kind of validate the show, it felt really good.

Yeah, it's an investment in the show itself because, you know, if I'm doing an intro for you on my show now, I say, you know, Jenny Blake is the award winning podcaster. It has a good amount of leverage to it. That could be the difference between someone checking out the show and not checking out the show. And ultimately, you know, that kind of click through ratio is one of the biggest ways that a show can grow. So, yeah, no, congratulations. It's well deserved.

Thank you so much. And to one stone as well. And that's what I figured too, that it is harder to differentiate. Every year a million or 2 million new shows are getting added and it's nice to be able to say, as much as the award show is profiting off of my hope, my hopes and dreams, I also feel like, hey, it's still won something and that is still a way to show that. And it got shortlisted for a couple other awards. It's still a way to say, amongst all your many millions of choices, someone has acknowledged that this is worth your time.

We'll be right back just after this.

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So I'd love to talk about Process a wee bit or as you guys say, process. Whenever you came on Tony's show, you talked a lot about creating an externalized business mind. I know that you are a Notion disciple and you've converted me to Notion, which I use for my own shows and all the shows in our portfolio. And I'd love to kind of touch on this idea of like a standard operating procedure or checklists for your show. Have you found that they work well for you and if so, any kind of best practices around that?

Oh yeah, you know I do, Matthew.

I take checklists, the word checklist to the next level and I think I got one stone shout out to Megan because I think they saw how I was using Notion and at first thought I was just bonkers, but then I'm pretty sure now their whole company and all the shows use Notion as well. There are just certain things you can do with Notion that it's a game changer. So essentially my podcast production board, there's one for each show and when somebody schedules in calendly a zap through zapier.

Oh, you are speaking my language.

Come on to the Notion card. Yeah, love geeking out with you on this and I love that you switched all your shows. So already the Notion card lands in a proper column. It's a Kanban style board that shows the life of an episode moving horizontally across the board. And I'll put a loom to this in the show notes because I actually did a pretty thorough walkthrough for the BFF community and it lands in a category called scheduling and prep. So that lets one stone know they help me with preparing the show notes file for the guest. I have three different templates, mostly a guest episode and then a solo episode and once you click on the template it populates all the information that we need to fill out in advance and also the notes I take during the episode. But the way that I use notion the most is that I have at least 15, if not 20 fields of metadata. And that also lets us know what we're doing. So link to their headshot automatic through the zap. Link to the Riverside recording, the tool that we're using to record this right now. Link to the Dropbox folder, the canva image, the ad insertion points, if. I mean, I don't have to take care of that anymore. All kinds of things. We use Descript for the transcripts, and then the transcript gets put into this episode card so that by the time the episode moves all the way across to the archive column, it even has a transcript put in there. And that's for me, so I can reference content really easily. And so every card for every guest or every solo episode becomes this intelligent asset for the business in and of itself.

Yeah, that's so cool. That is where the content creation side of podcasts, I think, are really powerful. One of the things I love about your free time book is the fact that all the way through it you're like referencing, oh yeah, I did a podcast episode with this world class expert and they told me personally on my own podcast. And then you insert the quote and I'm like, yo, Jenny knows what she's doing here. This is really slick, you know, because you rack up episodes really, really fast. You know, it doesn't feel like it in the moment, but you know, two years go by and you're like, oh my goodness, we've done over 100 episodes. And you're like, what was the key takeaway from episode 67? It's like, do I really want to listen to it? Not really. To have a place where you can go and quickly skim or search a transcript is really going to help you leverage the valuable content that you've been creating along the way. Whatever, you know, the journey is that you're taking listeners on or what you're building out for your business. I think that's really cool.

Yeah. Having the transcripts and Descript also makes it really easy to do a compilation episode. So in episode 100, I share top 10 lessons learned. And the way that I did that and pulled the clips because, you know, I don't pay the production team for like a super high caliber detailed NPR style podcast edit. If I have a more complicated episode, I try to help them out a little extra because I'm asking more of them too. And so in descript, I can quickly skim the transcript, highlight that one juicy bit that I like and then export just that audio clip. And so I'm not listening to the episodes back again. I'm just skimming the transcript, finding the one nugget that I want to use and exporting it. And the other thing I forgot to say, on a process standpoint, you asked about the kind of before and after of hiring a production team. We have not missed an episode since I hired them. Of producing 12amonth, not one episode has not gone out on the day it was scheduled. I guarantee that if I were managing it, and even if I were paying an audio editor and an assistant, I would have missed so many in that window of time in the last year.

And I think that's a really good point of what a production company can kind of bring to the table. You've used that word ownership, because it's easy to, you know, go on upwork and hire an audio editor or someone who can do this, someone who can do that. And I think as you experience, you end up kind of managing like six different virtual assistant freelance workers all over the place. And you're like, ah, where is all of my stuff? At what point is it being made? And I love the fact that, you know, you have someone who kind of does it all under the one roof for you, who is in tune with your system, shares your absolute passion for notion, which is incredible. And I think that that is really important because, again, as you said at the top of the show, it just makes it easy and it makes it enjoyable for you, and that is the ultimate determination of whether you keep on doing the podcast or not. So, yeah, good for you.

Speaking of process, my friend Sarah just told me about a book she loved called Unreasonable Hospitality, the Remarkable Power of Giving People more than they Expect. I'll put the link in the show notes. It's by Will Guidara, and I think he's from eleven Madison park, co owner of the legendary restaurant eleven Madison Park. I just ate there for the first time after 11 years living in New York City, and it was legendary and amazingly luxurious. You, Matt, you have your own strategies for sparking joy. Because I got a surprise delivery prior to recording my podcast with Tony, so I'm wondering if you could fill in the blanks. What did I miss in terms of process that you love and that makes you unique as a producer. And tell me about this intention to spark joy among guests all throughout the process because you're someone who's done that better than almost anybody I've seen.

Wow, that's high praise. I receive it. Thank you very much. I think what I realized really quickly from my own journey when I started podcasting six years ago. I was working for a company called Deliveroo at the time. So I was a bicycle messenger flying around Belfast delivering burritos and milkshakes and burgers to the fine people of the city.

That's awesome.

Yeah, I bring that up because I didn't have any professional network. I had never been in business before. I was working, you know, manual labor job effectively. And then I started podcasting. And it's kind of taken me on this whirlwind journey. But the most powerful part of podcasting for me personally has been building relationships. And there's a lot of talk about, you know, what are the value of podcasts. And there's some amazing things you can do. You can bring it into your sales process, you can build brand awareness, you can use it as a value add to your audience and all that sort of stuff. But I think an aspect that people really overlook is actually the relationships that you build with the people you get on your show. And podcasting is this amazing, magical way to get people who you've no right speaking with to have an hour of their time. And you can end up someone who could have a crazy consultation fee of, say, 10 grand an hour. They might be willing to come on your podcast and speak to you for free for 30 minutes. And that's kind of interesting because there's obviously value in it for them. But what I realized was I don't think enough podcast hosts and I don't think enough businesses that have podcasts leverage and invest enough into that relationship building process. And I realized really quickly on that, you know, a lot of podcasts kind of treat guests like commodities in a way where it's like, okay, next, let's get this person in. What can they offer us? Okay, next, okay, let's get this person in. And it feels kind of a bit icky to me. Instead of really trying to generate a meaningful, lasting interaction with somebody, that just means that you have a jumping off point for anything to come in the future. Whether you see them at an airport or you see them at a conference, or maybe there's an offering that your business has that would be really valuable to their business a year down the line. If you have left a good impression, if you have built a genuine connection and developed an actual relationship, I think it's really, really powerful. And it just means any ask that you make in the future, whether it's, hey, can you introduce me to someone else you think would be really Interesting for the show or just, hey, do you want to go and get a pint or a bite to eat? Really? Honing in on a podcast as a relationship building tool is something that has been really, really important to me and something that has paid massive dividends. So the process behind that was we knew that you were the queen of processes. Right. We knew that you love systems and you obviously do a lot of podcasts. So when I was doing the prep for that interview, I was like, what can we do that hopefully Jenny has never experienced before? And I used to live in New York and so is familiar with a bicycle delivery service, you know, that can deliver food and drink and whatever. Because we looked at a bunch of different stuff. It's like, what could we say? What could we say? And I thought, how cool would it be on the day or on the morning where the podcast recording was to take place? We send something like, I don't know, iced coffee because it's summertime, and a cookie to Jenny so that she has it whenever we're sitting down to do the recording. And then I noticed a really cool feature on the service where I could send you the order and you could choose the time when it was delivered. And I was like, oh, yes, now we're talking about. And so you were able to receive that, I think a day before the recording. And I would like to think that it showed you that we were really, really excited to have you on the show, that we took your time seriously, that we wanted to really put our best foot forward. And just like, if you were coming to meet us in our physical studio here in Belfast, we would at least get you a coffee, we would at least get you some nice water, we would give you a nice comfortable chair. It's trying to recreate that in the digital space. And I think those small gestures can go a really long way.

For sure. It's so cool hearing your background as a messenger, because I talk about this in the pivot context, but it's like that had something in common with the way that you built in this surprise and delight to the podcast process. Yeah. Because I'm like, this is weird. Why am I getting a DoorDash delivery at 10 in the morning? And I even think it might have come a couple days earlier prior, because it was on a weekend, so it was even more delightful. It was a Sunday. All of a sudden there's a surprise coming from Doordash. I don't know what it is, because with Doordash, it could be anything. And as you said, it was this delightful iced coffee with a note, something like New Orleans style iced coffee and a few pastries. And then what's fun about that is that the gift can be shared. So then now I feel cool getting to treat Michael. Why? Just because I'm going to be a guest on a podcast. It's really unexpected and it does add a few more process bits, but it's unforgettable. Even if it doesn't cost a lot, it's unforgettable.

Yeah, that's the thing. Like to speak brass tax. Did we spend $20 on that? We couldn't have spent more than that. And so that was a small investment that we weaved into that process that I think is just worth it. You know, like, I think podcasting and hospitality have, like, quite an interesting crossover. And what I mean is I often feel as a podcast host, you're kind of like setting the table for somebody. You know, you're trying to make them feel comfortable, you're trying to create a space, you're trying to share an intimate moment together. And I think just through Covid and as work becomes more and more remote, we're looking for ways to build in some more of those physical interactions. And sending a guest something up front, I think can make a big difference. The teams that I work with that have a big budget to throw behind their podcast, you know, we take that to as big a level as we can, where, you know, we're sending guests a camera, we're sending them a microphone, we're sending them some fancy water, we're sending them a little snack in a nice box that's all branded and colorful and really high end. And then, you know, at the end of the podcast process, you can also send things to guests with just really smart, intentional gifts that are useful, that are memorable, and that in some way are connected to the brand. So I don't know, for you guys, at free time, there's a gift I love. I bought like 200 of them a few years ago. They're these 15 minute R glasses, and they are so gorgeous. And I think for a while I was giving them the podcast guests and I was just like, thank you so much for your time. I appreciate that you spent it coming on the show. Here's a little something that will hopefully help you get a little bit of time back by having a moment of focus or having a deep work session or whatever it is. And I think those small little gestures, they're really, really cheap. They don't cost a lot of money. They add a Little bit to the process. But I think they go a long way in making people feel valued. And I think ultimately that should be the goal of all of our interactions.

You know, I love that gift idea. That is so good.

You're welcome.

Oh, my gosh. I know. I was going to say, I'm like, now I'm going to steal that one and then I'll them all. Jenny via Matt, via producer Matt.

No, no, take it. And this is next level. But you can customize the color of sand inside them. What?

Where did you get them? Where are these from?

I'll send you the link, but you can probably get a nice free time blue. And it would just. Oh, it's going to look so, so good.

Now I'm fainting. This is unbelievable. And that's amazing. I keep wanting to create some merch. This would be so good and such a thoughtful gift, like you said. I just was looking at an hourglass the other day, so it's really funny that you mention it. I wanted to ask you another question. I'm also going to put a book called Giftology in the show notes because it's a phenomenal read for anyone. Yeah. Who wants to think more about this and what John Ruling calls strategic gifting? Going back to process, I just recorded episode 300 for Pivot and I boiled down three creative lessons learned. And a lot of those lessons came from when I did a very similar Sprint and started podcasting daily for three months when the Pandemic first hit.

Oh, Jenny, I didn't know that about you. That's so interesting.

So we both did something very similar and it taught me so much. And you said earlier that your hundred day Sprint taught you so much. What did you learn? What were some of your top creative takeaways from doing that for 100 days daily, process wise or otherwise?

It's a lot of things that you mentioned. So it was doing the intro in real time or not doing an intro at all. We had this thing where I had my smartphone connected up to my Zoom recorder. And so very often I would be physically calling these people over the phone if they were, I don't know, over an age where they couldn't figure out how to work Zoom at the start of the pandemic. And so we included all the clunky kind of phone dial tones and maybe they didn't answer the first time. And that was kind of funny because the celebrity, local celebrity blew us off and all that sort of stuff. It was really leaning into that live element. And I think the more that you can do in the actual recording slot, the better. What I also learned was trying to maximize your prep for the episode. And so we're definitely not the first people to do this, but sending guests a quick questionnaire before they come on the show saved us a lot of time for prep, but also helped us to get into the heart of the episodes way sooner. You know, so if you ask somebody, what are the three best stories that you have to share, you know, at the pub or at a family gathering, and you can tweak that to whatever your niche is, it could be funny, it could be inspirational, it could be, you know, advice driven. And then you don't even have to dig. You can just say, like, I interviewed a 95 year old the other day, and one of her bullet points that she sent in was, ask me about the donkey in the bathroom. And so halfway through the episode, I was like, isabel, tell me about the donkey in a bath. And she went on to tell me this hilarious, roaringly funny story about a donkey that had hypothermia on her farm when she was 12, like, you know, 80 years ago, and how they brought it in and it lived inside their house, and they put it in the bath and they give it a warm bath for, you know, a week straight to save its life. And it was so funny, all these little bits, but I never would have gotten there, ever. And I'm a good interviewer, but there's no way in hell I could have possibly found my way to that story. And so actually, just asking your guests, hey, what is something funny? What do you know that works? Have you written any blog posts on the subject? Do you have any TED talks on a bullet point or. One of the questions I always ask people is in the prep. You know, what's something most people don't know about you? And that question has just delivered time and time again where you have this incredible individual known for something really serious. And it turns out they're also, I don't know, a salsa dancer or like a grade 8 recorder player. And it just allows you to weave in again, some of these more human, off the beaten track elements to the episode that I think is kind of fun, especially if you're interviewing people who have been on a lot of podcasts. Their story is very public. They have felt like they've answered every single question on the planet. You can kind of start to scratch some little areas that are maybe untapped. The other thing is just making the process way simpler. So having a clear system that's written out that, you know, this is what happens whenever the podcast is finished. This is what I do. This is how it's edited, this is how it can be put out, or this is the element that gets outsourced. And there's a tool that I would really love to kind of give a shout out to here called Ofonic. You guys come across that before?

Love of. I used to use it when I was doing it all on my own.

That's a really useful tool for people who aren't making podcasts for themselves. It's like this little AI robot that you upload your audio to and it with all of its artificial intelligence, you know, tweaks it, masters it, get rid of background noise. So if you have zero experience with audio, you've recorded something, it sounds a bit scratchy, or even if you've recorded something that sounds fine, a quick run through phonic, I think is really, really powerful. I love Riverside. I started using Riverside during the pandemic. I know that you're a big Riverside fan. Riverside is basically zoom on steroids. So it is a podcasters livestream. So you can livestream with it actually, which is interesting, but you can record audio, you can record video, it stores it remotely in the cloud. You probably don't know this because you are talent now and you're out of the editing weeds, but there's a really lovely integration Riverside has just done with descript, which is a audio and video editor and a transcription tool, where after you've recorded in Riverside, it's one click to bring it into descript. And so that saves you downloading the file, uploading the file, it just kind of does it all pretty seamlessly from descript. Then you can upload straight onto YouTube, you can upload straight onto the cloud, and it's finding little shortcuts, you know what I'm saying? To lose one or two steps on each part of the process that actually allows you to maybe cut your production time in half. And with that time spent, or that time saved, I should say with that free time, you can invest that into other parts of your business, or you can invest that into doing even more episodes, which ultimately generates more momentum in the niche and the brand that you're trying to build in the podcast world. So it's definitely using your guests to do a lot of the prep for you can make a big difference, you know, even like what you did today. It sounds so simple. Can you send through a headshot? Can you send through a bio? Congratulations. Now you don't have to write that. You know what I mean? Congratulations. Now you don't have to pay a photographer to go and take a photo of somebody or after the interview scramble to try to get it all together. I like to have everything that I need for post production ready before the interview starts so then once the interview actually happens, boom, it can be sent straight to production afterwards. And as you said earlier, it's way easier to do it in the moment. It's way easier to do it when everything's still fresh in your head as opposed to coming back to an episode in two months time. So that 100 day sprint, it taught me to as soon as the episode was done, I had to edit the episode, I had to put it up there and I had to distribute it. And that kind of, okay, boom, we're done. What's next kind of mentality has been really, really helpful for managing all of the shows and the episodes that we're a part of today.

We'll be right back just after this.

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I love all those learnings. It makes me think of a couple things. It also for me taught me that the show must go on. I come up with a new piece of content or thinking or a guest every single day. So then I was less precious about, oh, I'm not inspired or I don't know what to talk about. It's like, too bad. You got to figure out something. So that was a good exercise for me. That daily bootcamp made what I do now producing 12amonth seem easy because I'm not producing 30amonth. I'm only doing half of that and I have a team doing more of the work. I wanted to go back to something. Okay, two things. You mentioned that Riverside to Descript integration. That's a good reason to stay on top of software because I saw when they rolled that out too. That's an efficiency that didn't exist a year ago, but now it does. So I always skim the software that I use. I skim their newsletters, they don't unsubscribe because I always want to know, are they rolling something out that's going to save me a few clicks and a few extra steps that just make it so much easier. And then to your point about post processing, audio quality is so important. And this goes with the gifting conversation. There have been a few guests that in my calendly, in the form I asked, do you have an external podcasting mic? And if the guest tells me no, I send the Yeti Nano because it's not too big and imposing. But it is almost $100 the reason that I do that. And I don't just send them a crappy headset because some people will send, and I don't mean to diminish anyone who sends a headse, like sending anything at all is a gift and it's better than nothing.

Absolutely.

But the audio quality on the headsets aren't great. So how do I justify sending a $100 microphone just because the person doesn't have one? Well, here's why. Because twice now I've gotten a response in from an author who's about to go on a book tour, usually a podcast tour, because it's not in person anymore, but they're about to start launching their book. And I think to myself, this person needs to have a nice mic for this. And I feel very lucky when I get to gift them something that I know they're going to use and over and over again. So it's part of that relationship building that if I just looked at, wasn't this a little extravagant for a gift? Maybe. But also, I can gift an author, someone I respect, a colleague, something that they are going to use all the time, and they're going to sound so much better on any next episode that they do. It makes me really happy to contribute to their book launch in that way.

But see, that's so part of who you are, and therefore so part of your brand is you are a positive force in the world, you know, and you seek to put out not just a net positive, but like as, I don't know, a surplus positive response into the world. And yeah, it's 100 bucks, but as you say, it's a really beautiful investment into somebody. It's incredibly valuable for them. It's incredibly valuable for the people who will listen to every single podcast episode they will ever be in for the rest of their lives.

And so, you know, it's priceless, really, that gift that you're given. And this sounds like Karma, actually, as I'm speaking out loud. But there is something about, you know, when you are generous and when you put your best foot forward with people and you treat people with real care and attention that goes so, so, so far. And I think those small little serendipitous moments that you're kind of putting out there. And I know you love serendipity. It's almost like, you know that quote, the harder I work, the luckier I get.

Oh, yeah.

I kind of feel like for you, it's like the more generous I am, the more serendipitous I become. Do you know what I mean?

True.

You're increasing the surface area of serendipity, and I think that's cool.

I love the way you put that. Thank you. And I do have that feeling. Last night, even Michael and I were on the subway. We're going to this schmancy art thing at the MoMA. And there was a guy, he just broke my heart. He was on the subway. He had walking challenges. And anyway, all I had was a $10 bill. And so normally you would not like on the subway. There's. Every time you ride, there's maybe someone asking for money. But in this case, I just felt like, really my heart went out to this guy. I don't know. I told Michael it felt like someone was wringing a towel. And a half ago, what it was doing to my heart seeing him trying to navigate the subway. And so I dropped a $10 in his cup, and he looked at me, he said, $10? Are you sure that's okay? And I was like, yeah, go get dinner. Do something nice. He said, wow, thank you so much. You know, he just was like, have a great night. And struggling to get the words out. Struggling just to stay standing on a shaky train. And it broke my heart up. Like I said to Michael afterwards, shoot, if I would have known how, like, I would have given him the 50. That was the only other bill I had in my wallet. And I do feel. I really do feel that to live generously is its own reward. It does increase serendipity surface area. I do think that it creates a frequency of generosity that brings other things from other places. Not doing it as a means to that end. But, like, I feel lucky. Gifting is challenging sometimes to know you don't want to add clutter to somebody's home or send them alcohol when they're, you know, in rehab or whatever or.

Or even with you and the cookies. I was like, ah, damn. I hope Jenny is not like, on some sort of no sugar thing.

It's a risk. It's a risk. So when someone tells me an author I respect says, I'm about to do a podcast tour and no, I don't have an external mic, I actually feel so grateful. Yes. Now there's this low hanging fruit of a gift, low hanging podcast mike that I can so easily gift them, knowing which one that I recommend and that it's small, compact enough to travel with. Like, in a way, I feel very grateful. Aha. I know just the perfect thing for you.

Absolutely.

And it doesn't happen that much. That's the other thing. It's not like I'm sending one to every guest. I've maybe sent out three in the last year, so it doesn't have to break the bank.

Yeah. But I think it improves the quality of your podcast.

Yes.

And I don't mean actually the audio. I mean it improves the relationship that you have with the person whenever the red light goes on. And as a host, that's everything. Like, the more comfortable you can make someone feel, the more safe you can make someone feel, the more prepared, the more like, don't worry, I'm not here to got you journalism you. I'm not here to make you look bad. My sole goal in the next R2 Rs, whatever it is, is to set the table to make you look as good as possible. Like you're setting the stage to make someone thrive. And that's the real joy of podcasts and I think as a host is you're drawing out the treasure in other people. You're making them look as shiny as possible and you're digging into the treasure that they absolutely have and you get to go on this amazing journey of discovery with slash for them.

You know, well, that's what I love about you, asking these unique questions that maybe no one's asked them even in the pre survey. That's really genius because sometimes when I'm in the moment, I forget or I don't think about how can I get them to say something other than their normal stump speech for the book. And that's a big creative challenge to the point about making them sound good. I actually do care for themselves and for my show and for my listeners that they sound really good. And if they are not using an external mic, I will often ask to reschedule because one time, this is one of my big interview regrets. I interviewed an author that I really respected. I loved his work and this was many years ago. I'll even try to remember who put it in the show notes. But he had the corded iPhone headphones that basically the mic often rubs against the clothing and creates a.

No, I've been there.

Yeah. And I was too shy to say anything at the beginning. I heard it a little bit, but I didn't want to be awkward before we record. So for some stupid reason, I didn't say anything. So the entire interview, every brilliant gem that he shared had the.

And I just thought that is like not telling someone they have spinach in their teeth because now we recorded this great episode. He said great things, and yet because I was too shy to say something, it sounds like shit. And it's not a good experience for the listener and it's annoying to me and it doesn't do his work service. And so now sometimes I get on with someone and I know it's a little bit of an awkward way, but before I even get into the pleasantries, I'm like, oh, actually, can you go grab a pair of headphones? Oh, actually, could you stack your mic up on a couple books? Because I need it closer to your mouth. And the amazing thing is that sometimes the mic is so far away because they think they need to look good on video. And I tell them, we're going to turn video off, try putting the mic closer to your face. And the change, the warmth in their voice just is 10x what it otherwise would have. The sound quality is so much better that I think it's worth getting it right. That I do feel very picky about.

Yeah, and that's why now you're a unique case because you're incredibly tech savvy. You run your own show by yourself for, you know, a long time. So you know the industry, you know the process, you know the tools. A lot of the customers we work with, they've Never posted a YouTube video or set a podcast up on Spotify. And so, you know, a lot of the value we do is we basically allow them to not have to worry about all that sort of stuff. So in the Riverside, it calls, you know, in the actual recording slots, we have a producer there that kind of facilitates all of that. And I love that because I have been in that situation so many times with you where you have a big time fancy pants guest and you really don't want to get on their back about, like not having headphones or can you do this? Can you do that? Because you don't want to disturb or interrupt the magic or the flow, you know, because it's too delicate at the very start. Of an episode because you're like, I really want this to go well. Like, I want to create a safe space. I don't want to. And so the role of the producer in that moment is like they do all the kind of ball breaking work for you. You know, they step in. It's like they handle the brass tacks, so then the talent can kind of come in and be very, very shiny. But I know you do a really good job of smoothing all that over and finagling that. But it's definitely. That in and of itself is a really delicate skill set that I don't think a lot of people can pull off. And I get it wrong sometimes too, you know, but that's just the way the cookie crumbles, isn't it?

Yes. The delicious cookie that you send in advance.

Do you bake in batches still?

Always as much as I can. I mean, right now we're actually recording this before the holidays, and this will come out in the new year. What's been rewarding is getting so far ahead in the can. Almost so far ahead. It's awkward because pretty soon things will be a world away. It comes out so far in the future.

Whenever it's six months, I've got to the point for myself and for customer shows where they're like, oh, when's this gonna go out? And you're like, six months time.

I know that's where I got with Pivot.

Maybe I'm actually too far ahead right now.

I know it's a good feeling. It's kind of a champagne problem. But I do love batching interviews because it also keeps me in a mode of conversation. And then nothing feels better when batching than when it's like, oh, you know, I don't have to record a single interview in the month of December. That's joyful. I was a little scared that if I took that time off, I had this chat with Megan from One Stone Creative that am I going to get rusty? Am I going to lose my edge? And she said, you know, most people, most shows actually benefit from having that creative pause and having a break and coming back fresh. So I'm also using this time to work with a coach on the podcast. In fact, even in addition to the coaching I get and conversations with One Stone, I'm working with Jay Acunzo, who I really respect how he thinks about the creative process. And so that's kind of another big leap and a big investment of now that the process does feel so smooth and dialed in. Let me revisit exactly where we started this conversation. The intentionality and the purpose of the podcast.

Yeah. And because everything else is taken care of, you can now really, really hone the craft of facilitation and being a great host, you know, and that's a.

Great example of what gets freed up once the process is established and then delegated. Otherwise, I'd still be doing it. I'd be doing the work that's that. Michael Gerber, you're not working on the business. You're in the business. Well, if I'm working in the podcast and the live and episode, I can't work on the podcast as a whole.

Absolutely.

And podcasting is tough to get out of the trenches. It's not easy. And so this is rare. But I want to make sure that all the effort the team and I are doing are going in a good direction, you know, so it does feel really important to step back almost two years in to running both shows already. I've only had one call with Jay, and I'm already embarrassed. I'm already like. Because he's so good. And I go, dang it, you know, oh, there's so much I could have been doing differently. And that's the edge of growing and improving, too, is knowing how awkward or imperfect things were in the past. And that's okay, you know?

Absolutely.

They'll just hopefully keep getting better.

But it's like getting acting lessons from, I don't know, Helen Mirren or somebody. You know what I mean? It's like you're, like, playing on a very, very high level now. And so it's incredible that you get to kind of push towards that goal of mastery. I think, you know, you've got your reps in. You're probably close to, if not surpass your 10,000 hours. And it's like, all right, what are we going to do the next 20,000 hours to become what, you know, one of the goats or whatever people say these days.

Oh, gosh. I mean, thank you that you see it that way. I see it as so differently. I don't know, I see it as just still a complete beginner or so much to learn and improve.

And the beginner's mind, you know, it's important.

Beginner's mind. I appreciate what you're saying, and just the reminders, to me, it's kind of both. And it's like, yeah, it's been a while, but I never want to rest on my laurels, like, just assuming that time equals talent, because as that saying goes, practice doesn't make perfect. Perfect. Practice makes perfect.

That's right.

You know? So it's like, I don't know, I guess I get shy talking about this.

I don't know what's going on.

Don't be bashful. I've got one final question for you, and it's really simple. We could have started with this, but I thought it would be a nice way to end. Why podcasting? Like, what has podcasts delivered to you and your delightfully tiny team at Jenny Blake Enterprises llc, or whatever you guys say over there? I don't really know.

Hey, that is my official company name. A funny story about that. What's something most people don't know about me? The official government name of my business is Jenny Blake Enterprises. And that was a joke. That was when my side hustle, I was working at Google and I go, jenny Blake Enterprises, jbe. My friend Sean still, I call him S, C, E. That's his initials, Sean Kerrigan. And he'll say, jbe. Anyway, now it's kind of embarrassing because I all get these big corporate contracts and Jenny Blake Enterprises, like, it's just.

It's okay. My first few years of business, I was still trading under my bicycle courier business name. So, like, my first, like, clients and stuff were like, what the hell is this? On the invoice, And I was like.

I'm sorry, what is it? You gotta tell us what the name was.

It was smooth rider 774. No, I'm just kidding.

Sounds like an AOL screen name.

It's like an Xbox gamer tag or something funny.

See, now it could be Smooth Enterprises llc.

You see, There you go.

I know. I was thinking, I'm like, jenny Blake Media is probably more accurate.

But no, it's very Steven Press Fieldian of you. You know, he always talks about being a professional, and you are a company that employs your time, so I love that.

That's true. Okay, there's a phrase. I've said it on the show before. If you chase two hairs, you'll end up with none. Or something like that.

Oh, yeah, yeah. That's awesome.

And in episode 300 of Pivot, I talk about how right now and in the episode I did for this show about why I stopped trying to sell Pivot, I've been describing them as being on two skis. And every time I think about shutting down one podcast of the two league, Pivot could be easy. I even told myself when I hit 300, I'm going to reevaluate, because that's a big milestone. It would Be a natural point to say, I created 300 great episodes for you, for anyone who reads the book, but I'm like, I don't even want to miss out. I'm already having FOMO for the four conversations a month that I would be having for Vivid. Even if no one's listening, even if nobody likes the show, I have this FOMO because it keeps getting more fun or it's as fun to connect with interesting people. And as long as I do my homework to say yes to people who are genuinely exciting to me, like I call it, jump out of your chair with glee. I should be like, springing into my office, can't wait to hop on the horn and saying to my husband, I can't believe I get to talk to this person today. That's how I know I've scheduled the right guest. And as long as I keep doing that, podcasting is just so priceless. Like you said, for me, being a lifelong bookworm, to have an excuse to ask my personal questions about somebody's book for an hour and talk one on one in real time while knowing we're creating an asset that everyone else can listen to and benefit from is heaven on earth. Just absolute heaven on earth. So it's an introvert's guide to making friends. I'm not on other social media. I'm allergic to all other forms of. Of communication. And so I joke that I have a personality for podcasting.

Yeah, it's so great and it's so true. You know, like, not everyone is the short attention span. TikTok grab 15 second wonder. And I'm so glad that the medium of podcasting exists because I think that there are things that can be communicated in ways that can only be communicated in long form conversation. And so I'm chuffed that you have hit 300 episodes. I thought that you were maybe going to go snowboarding for a while there, but you're keeping with the skis, which is awesome. And as long as it's continuing to spark joy for you and add value to the listeners, it's like, why would you stop? You know, especially now you've got your processes nailed down.

And by the way, the total sum total across both shows is over 450. So even that is, it's like when you combine the episode count. The other thing I wanted to say is that I love podcasts and I loved books. Books were my salvation as a kid. They were my best friend, my mentors, my friends, my mom, my everything, everything, everything. Books have saved me time and time again. From despair, sadness, grief, learning, building, whatever I'm doing. Books have always been there and podcasts listening. So as a consumer, it is just so fulfilling every day. I start my day with podcasts, I end my day with podcasts. When I go on dog walks, I'm listening. And so I think that's the other clue for people to think about. It's not just, oh, what would benefit the business, what would benefit my community, those things are important. But also what do I genuinely love Consuming. And then I get to be part of that community, but also give back in a way that has given me so much. And podcasting is listening to shows and having my parasocial BFF ships with all the podcasters that I love has just given me so much. And it's the first thing, since books are in parallel. So talk about skis. Those are the two skis of my life that other than IRL relationships in terms of learning and improving that have given me so much. So that's another big impulse behind it.

There's something in that ski metaphor. I can see that coming to, like, a keynote public speaking blog post, video near you. Interesting.

Until I crash, until I'm like, don't have two skis. It's too hard. Switch snowboarding.

Awesome. Jenny, thank you so much for this. Really, really enjoyed it.

Thank you, Matt. This has been so fun.

Yeah, I love sharing learnings as well. I've definitely learned a lot today, and even from seeing your processes, listening to your podcast, it's shaped my business a lot. So thank you for free time. Thank you for what you've put out into the world on this podcast in your book and everything else you do as well. It's been extremely valuable for me, and I know that it's been valuable for so many other people, too. So thanks a lot.

Well, that makes my day. Thank you so much, Matt. And thanks for this great suggestion to do this and all the prep you put in. And I'd send you an hourglass, but I'm going to have to wait for the link first.

Yeah, I am only accepting an hourglass if it's free time. Blue sand. Okay. Any other color and it's not making it to my desk.

I agree. I agree. This was so fun. Thank you again and big thanks for everybody who's here listening.

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