172: Self-Care for Empaths and HSPs with Sarah Santacroce

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What's next? This is a question we're all having to ask and answer more frequently. I'm Jenny Blake, your host of the Pivot podcast and author of Pivot. The only move that matters is your next one.

For show notes from this episode, visit pivotmethod.com podcast if Change is the only constant, then let's get better at it. Here we go.

Hello friends. I hope you enjoy this conversation with Sarah Santa Croce who is based in Switzerland. She's a friend and former Momentum member who has an incredible podcast and platform of her own around gentle business and gentle marketing. She has a great manifesto called the Gentle Business Revolution that I'll put in the show notes and she reached out to me with an idea to record a conversation about navigating change and challenging times as an empath and highly sensitive person, or HSP for short. I hope you enjoy this conversation that we recorded for both of our podcasts in a very open back and forth kind of way. If you have any tips that we missed or that are helping you during this time, let me know. Leave a voice note@pivotmethod.com ask or send us a reply@helloivittmethod.com now onto today's show.

Hi Jenny, So good to speak to you.

Hi Sarah. I'm so happy we're doing this. Thank you for the great idea to podcast on being an empath and highly sensitive person during this time. There's no one I'd rather be having this conversation with.

I know you're the first person that came to mind as well because we kind of talked about being introverted and both INFJs. But really, yeah, like living through this crisis right now has really reminded me how. Yeah, it's probably a different experience to live it as an empath and a highly sensitive person. So I reached out to you and we're recording this conversation on March 24th and we decided to kind of collaborate and then host it on both podcasts because it's a. It's an important conversation because we both think that we have a Lot of empaths in the audience. Right.

Well, I just love what you're doing with Gentle Business Revolution and your podcast and Gentle marketing. There's so much that, through our work together, in momentum and outside of it, and what you're doing has inspired me along the way of we can do things differently. And I can't think of more of a time now than ever that people need and are craving a gentle approach to this in some way. And at the same time, the paradox is we need to be quite aggressive from a practical standpoint to stop the spread of coronavirus. I know you are. I'm here in New York City, the new global epicenter of it. But you got a head start because you're in Switzerland. What was your experience like seeing this all unfold once it came to Italy?

Yeah, I was just recording another podcast earlier today with a friend in Milan who kind of shared his experience, how it felt like in Italy and how the situation is today. And obviously, yeah, it's a scary place right now where he is. And what's interesting is that we always think, well, it's not gonna be as bad. You know, we are right next to Italy. Literally, like, it's very close by. And we kind of looked at what's happening in Italy from a distance. We're like, oh, you know, this is horrible. But we never thought, you know, this is gonna hit us within a week. And so seeing kind of what's happening with other countries now. I shared just before we started recording. For me, I'm now in this place where, okay, I know it's bad. I compared it to.

A diagnosis when you. When you're not sure, you know, when you're sick or, you know, someone who's sick but, you know, don't know what they have. You don't have a diagnosis yet. And that is so, you know, you feel so anxious because you don't know what it is. But once you do know, you just, you know it's bad, but you have to deal with it. So that's kind of how I compared the. Yeah, the development of this thing is like, I spent the week just being completely anxious because I had no idea, you know, is it going to get really bad? And now we are in lockdown. This is our second week, complete lockdown. Complete. Country schools have been closed for a week now, and nobody's supposed to go outside.

And so we are just like, okay, this is bad. And we know we now have to deal with it. And so you kind of see what's happening in other Countries, for example, the States, right, where the wave is still growing. And it felt like last week, it felt still like, oh, there's a lot of people who still don't realize that this is going to hit them, just like we didn't realize how bad it's going to hit us. And that, as an empath, feels so.

Frustrating. And I feel so powerless in this situation because there's no control over it.

I was just saying that with Penny, that it's the control that's being really questioned right now, and we have to release it because we might want to control the situation or our business or how things are going to be. And there is no control and there's no certainty. And how do you lead and respond during a time like that? I thought of you this past weekend. So it sounds like we're on pretty similar timelines, because here in New York, New York is. Yes, it's good for getting it for about the same amount of time. I don't even know how long I've been on lockdown now, because Michael and I kind of did that even before it was required by the state. But I thought of you and I thought of this podcast because we went to Whole Foods on Sunday, which is the closest grocery store to us. There was a line out the door, halfway down the block, security at both entrance and exit. And that was one thing, that was a real dose of reality, because Michael had been going to the store while I've been podcasting every day. And then I walked in the store, and the whole time that we were shopping, I felt so sad. I was just on the verge of tears. Not for myself, for the situation. And I think part of what's happening for those who are empaths or highly sensitive, as you pick up on the energy around you in the room from other people and from the collective, not even in your physical location, the global collective consciousness. I felt so sad. I just wanted to cry. I was looking around, it was so sparse. You would think, you know, under any other circumstances, it's like, woohoo, there's no one in here. Great. You know, and we were so fortunate that it was stocked because the last time Michael tried to get groceries, the shelves were empty. And we actually didn't eat that much that week. I know that's weird to say. We weren't worried of be, you know, going hungry the way that some people have that very serious concern. But that's when reality struck for him. And so for me, it was this deep sadness. And then the last few days, it's just that sadness comes and goes in waves, and it's not even entirely mine. Some of it is. Some of it is about just grieving various losses of what was. And that as much as we can try to be optimistic and hopeful for the future and the shift in consciousness and the sea change that is coming, there's still a grieving process. You know, I quote Stephen Mitchell in Pivot, all change involves loss. And I feel it, and I feel it for myself personally, and I feel just a deep sort of collective sadness at the same time. I don't know if you've experienced that at all.

Yeah, I agree. It's this heaviness, right. And, yeah, it does overcome me as well. And.

And I guess.

Like, I'm at home with the kids now and, you know, my husband is home. And so I have to still kind of keep an upbeat attitude because we know that when we look worried, then obviously the kids are going to be concerned as well. And right now, to be honest with you, the kids don't really realize, you know, what's going on in terms of. They don't see the economical impact. They realize, okay, there's a lot of people getting sick, but they don't know the whole aftermath. So in a way it's good for them. So, yeah, I remember one morning last week I was reading this article about an Italian man who works here in the hospital in Switzerland, and he went to. He got a call that his mom was dying and they had to go over there and they didn't make it in time. And just how he told the story about how bad the whole situation was for all these old people, that literally.

He said that Italy almost went back to the old ages, middle age, where people were being treated as witches. Like, they burned his mother's clothes before he could even recollect them because there was so much fear around this virus. And so that made. Yeah, that made me so sad. And I was crying in the morning and, you know, the kids come in, what's wrong? And sometimes it's not as easy to explain how deep things like that touch us as highly sensitive people, because even, like outside of the virus times, like, I cry very easily during movies. And, you know, boys, they make. They usually make fun of me and I kind of now brush it off. But that's just how I. That's just how I react to not just sadness, also happy, happy moments and movies. Is it the same for you?

Definitely. And I was just thinking maybe it's worth each of us saying what these two terms Mean to us, but certainly part of being highly sensitive. So I think of empaths as it took me a while to realize that I was one. But I think of empaths as intuitive. And when you're sort of untrained, you're like a sponge. You're not just empathetic or sympathetic toward others. You actually feel what they're feeling, or you can feel into what they're feeling in a more visceral, experiential way. And the skill for an empath is to learn how not to be a sponge all day. And now to just pick up everyone else's energy and get ping ponged around by other people's energy, because it's a very porous, energetic membrane, let's call it. And then I think of highly sensitive person. And there's a book, Highly Sensitive Person by Elaine Aaron. I think of highly sensitive as well. Exactly that. Like, I cry very easily. I have a lot of emotional range up and down. I can be very happy, joyful, hopeful, optimistic. And I can also be deeply affected and sad and waylaid by what seem to others might seem like small setbacks. And that's partly what inspired me to write Pivot, because I didn't feel very resilient to change. Highly sensitive might even mean you're highly sensitive to sounds. I get really upset if someone speaks. Speaking too loudly and I'm in an enclosed space or the TVs on too loud. I cannot watch violent movies. I'll never forget it, honestly. I can't watch the local news. I wouldn't sleep at night. So I'm highly sensitive to the inputs and now highly aware of what inputs I'm allowing into my consciousness. Because even if you think you're watching a horror movie, your subconscious doesn't know that. For a long time, I've had to filter what comes in and who I surround myself by, because I will be deeply impacted by it. That's how I would define those two terms. And part of that, in the context of this pandemic, is feeling the collective waves of processing and also having maybe a more intuitive sense or a hopeful sense at the same time. Like I have. I hear the voice that says, it's going to be okay. Even the conversations with Penny, you know, she really brings that energy way more than me. I was kind of on that call, on that podcast episode, playing the role of like, well, how do we know, Penny? How do we know it's going to be okay? But if I really feel into my intuition, I do see how this is changing. All of us, and that we will emerge stronger. And we do have an opportunity to lead now more than ever. But if you're highly sensitive, that's going to mean processing your own feelings, really, and everything that's coming in through your antenna. How do you think about those two terms, Sarah?

You know, agree to everything you said? For me, also, something that I noticed more kind of over the years is, for example, music. I could simply cry to a. When I see not so much, you know, just listening to YouTube or whatever music online, but if I see a concert and I see how much passion the artist puts into their craft, that can make me cry. Like, just the beauty of something like that can make me cry. And again, that's related to the high sensibility to. Also, I think what I've read is the creative side of the brain is kind of more active. And so that all goes together, right? The music arts, some highly sensitive people are very more kind of impacted by art and paintings and things like that. So, yeah, it's an interesting thing.

Don't really know if it's a personality trait or how it's defined, but it's something that I remember when I was a child, my mom kind of had this term for me. She called me a mimosa. And a mimosa is this tree that has leaves that kind of, when you touch them, they close down. They kind of compact and close down.

And that meant, oh, you're very sensitive. Right. And so that wasn't necessarily, in my mind, that that was not a positive thing to be. And even when I first got to know my husband, he kind of commented on, oh, you're very sensitive and things like that. And so you start to think, oh, this is something bad about me. I should, you know, especially, like, being a teenager and not being able to watch horror movies or whatever, all this aggression and violence on tv. And even in my family, I have two boys, and there's very often every weekend there's one movie that I will not watch with them. And so they always have to pick one mom, you know, movie. And then the other night they'll watch a guy movie where I know a lot of other women they're able to watch. But me, I just. I just know I won't be able to sleep after because it has such a deep impact on me that I'm like, well, I'd rather not. I don't enjoy it. And then on top of that, I can't sleep at night. So.

Yeah, you mentioned the boys. That reminds me when Michael and I Moved in together, he would play video games. And I have no exposure, I mean, other than my brother growing up, my younger brother, but in recent years, had no exposure. They're so graphic, they're so vivid, and they're so violent. So many of them are so incredibly violent. The purpose of the game is you run around with a gun killing people or animals or aliens or whatever it is. And he would get great joy. Some of the video games, like, you're on a big trek, you're on a journey. And I would always love the nature scenes where he was in Egypt or in the forest, like, let's say. And early on in our relationship, he asked me to play with him first. I said, no, I won't play anything violent. Okay. We go to play some game. And I don't know, it had to involve shooting him. I wouldn't do it. I wouldn't do it. I wouldn't shoot him even in the video game, and nor would I shoot anyone else in the video game. Like, I just absolutely. My whole body said, no, I will not do this. I will not play. Act that I'm shooting. You might now husband or killing people for sport. Like, I just. And so then he kind of. His awareness around it grew, and he started to realize, oh, yeah, these are so violent. Oh, how come I never questioned that?

And.

And it kind of. I didn't tell. I didn't ask him, don't play them. Or I didn't tell him, you shouldn't. But he also just kind of woke up to, wow, yeah, what am I doing? You know, what am I putting into my brain? Because it's easy not to question it.

Yeah. I'm also thinking now that with so many people suffering right now, how, like we kind of mentioned it before, that there's certain things that we can't control. And I think that is what is so important right now as an empath or highly sensitive person, to realize what we can focus on.

And what we can control and then let go of the other things that we can't control.

And I think it's also.

What I like to do now that I've come out of this frozen state. And I feel grounded now, and I feel like, okay, I'm here to help. I think that's also what empaths are good at. Right. They're able to help.

And so it's really about this compassion and showing that you understand the pain of others.

And the challenge is not to absorb their pain. Right. So really, I don't know what you're doing. Jenny, in order to.

Being able to help and yet stay grounded and not absorb other people's pain. What are you personally doing for that?

Well, I love that you're asking that. I was going to ask you the same thing about what tactics or practices you've developed over the years. One thing that's important for me is to just pause and say, is this my sadness or the collective? Or both. Could be both. That can go multiple ways. Sometimes I might be thinking I'm picking up on the collective sadness and I'm really projecting. It's really my own sadness, something I'm not dealing with or haven't shown the light of awareness onto yet. And then other times I might think, gosh, why am I so sad today? This is bizarre. Nothing has happened. And I inquire within and there's no discernible reason. And then I realize, oh, it might be the collective sadness. And this can happen, by the way, even in a partnership, even in a relationship. I think for empaths and highly sensitive people, it's. It's really challenging if your partner's down, not to just immediately be down, or this goes to my codependency, but not to think, what did I do? Sometimes I think, oh, no, either what did I do? Or was I? Did I create that? Did I have to rewind in my mind things I said or did? And then even if I don't feel responsible and I know better my adult self, sometimes I'll also wonder, how can I fix this? So I also think it's important to give others space, not to jump so much into helper, rescuer mode. I have to pull myself back from this, of thinking just because, you know, Sarah, you mentioned shifting from frozen into helper mode. And we may all cycle through. We may all cycle through frozen, sad, inspired, helper, frozen, sad. You know, we don't really know those, how those cycles will go. But sometimes I need to say it's okay. I don't need to jump in and fix anything here. I just need to show up and be authentic and be myself and be the change, be as grounded as I can be, take care of my health, physical health, mental, spiritual, emotional health, as much as I can, and then show up authentically and honestly and transparently from that place without trying to fix things too much for others and without trying to prevent them from having their process.

I like that. And what I kind of jotted down was empower versus fix.

Because, yes, I think if we get into the fixing mode, then we get overwhelmed. And that's another Thing that highly sensitive people often deal with is this sense of overwhelm. Because if you fix one person, then there's thousands of others that need help. And with fixing right now, so that's not our role. We can't take on that role. What we can do is, once we grounded ourselves, is then help people empower themselves and say, look, you know, here's some ideas and that's how you can, you know, find back to clarity and groundedness. So help them empower themselves. But we kind of deviated and I want to have you start again with the tools and routines that you.

Yeah, those are two of them. I think so much of it is awareness because as an empath, it's easy to absorb or go into this automatic reaction. So for me, those are two tools. Is asking is this mine or is this a collective or both? It's about not jumping into other people's business too much, just focusing on my own groundedness. Because also if what I have found is if I'm not, if as an empath, if I'm not grounded, I'm very susceptible. I'm much more susceptible to anything I would see or hear in the media or someone can look at me with a split second micro expression and I'll feel that negative energy or I'll feel bad or, you know, it's really bizarre. So I know my groundedness is really important. I would also say as a highly sensitive person, I need immense amounts of rest and recharging. So another thing, I had to remind myself this today. And I can't even say I'm getting this balance right just yet. It's especially a little tricky with the dog walks twice a day, so we are distancing. But he needs to go out and I'm more tired than usual. I think just the emotional journey of all this. I'm more tired and I need more rest and I need way more than I think. And this is a common pattern in my life that whatever I think I'm allowed, whatever dosage of rest seems appropriate. It's about double, triple or quadruple. So I need to rest. Otherwise as an hsp, I'll call it for short, I don't have the tools to respond very resiliently in the moment. I don't. I'm shorter temper, I misinterpret things. I can get more negative. So it's actually vital for me to rest and do less during a time like this. How about for you? What are some of your favorite tips and tools?

We're lucky in Switzerland that we still get to go outside. So even though we're being asked to stay at home, we can still go outside for walks and kind of be in nature. And I live next to a little forest with a river, and so I really treasure that usually, but now even more to be in nature. And nature is kind of an anchor for me because it shows me that this is going to be here for me. This is perfect just as is. There's nothing to fix in nature. If I touch a tree and look up to its crown, it's perfect as is. And that just helps me because usually when we're working, then there's always. We always have things to fix and things to do. And in nature you just are reminded that everything is perfect the way it. So, yeah, definitely, if you're still able to go outside and if you can go to a park nearby, I would definitely encourage you to, or maybe even to just look outside and if you see a tree in front of your window, to realize that these are anchors for us that help us remind ourselves that this is here for us. It's also a message from nature that we're not as powerful as we think as humans, and kind of reminding us of that we're living on Mother Nature's planet. And that in a way, yes, there's the climate crisis, but at the same time, nature is very powerful. And so maybe this is a reminder that that's the way it is. So nature is one of them. And then I'm a pract.

Meditator, let's say. And I'm really saying practicing, because it's not something that comes easy for me. But I have been practicing for about four years and it does help me, even though I usually feel like, oh, that wasn't great, but at least I'm sitting there and I'm trying to go back to my thoughts. And so I think that has helped me a lot with sleep because I can really now go to sleep very easily where before that wasn't the case. And then the third one I mentioned is a gratitude journal. So really writing down most nights what I'm grateful for. And I didn't do it in the week when I was frozen because it felt like there was nothing to be grateful for. But now I'm reminded again of what we already have, all the things that we have, just focusing on those things and really pausing and reflecting on these inner things also that we have and that we're actually quite lucky in that way.

There's so much great stuff in there. And your nature around your house sounds so beautiful when you were sharing that it reminded me sometimes it's challenging taking the dog out twice a day. But I have to say, the dog owners are so happy because we get out of the house twice a day. We have fresh air, really. We have the park to ourselves. That's selfish of me to say, but it's just we can let the dog off the leash. So. And then all the dog owners, we don't always go to the dog run, but Ryder really loves playing with other dogs. And then it's so delightful watching these dogs interact. So to tack onto the nature piece, the dogs don't know that anything's wrong. You know, they're as delightful and playful and happy as ever. And so that mechanism of we have to get fresh air once or twice a day. We have to move our bodies and we're with this little being that it's as normal a day as any other.

You know, it's so funny, in Spain, they're on complete lockdown as well. I was talking to a client in Spain yesterday and he's like, there is people with dogs who are now renting out their dogs so other people can have a walk to go for a dog walk. Yeah, seriously.

Because the police are out in New York. I can see them driving by through the park and looking, and it's as if they're looking, do you have a dog? Do you have a reason to be out? Because the only people that are out are either exercising, which is still okay if you keep six feet between each other. The exercisers are the dog owners. So it's true. I could see people saying, like, here, borrow my dog. Yeah, exactly. Because then they don't crack down either. We're at least able to stand, you know, like, the owners will stand kind of far owners, guardians will stand kind of far apart. But at least be able to say, how are you doing? How is this affecting your work, your family? And you also mentioned the gratitude journal, someone. I was just attending a workshop today, and she said now is the time to do automatic writing, especially if you're highly sensitive, which most likely means highly intuitive as well. That anything, not just to release tension or stress. To get that, do the automatic writing, but also tune in your antenna to the collective. Right now, what does the world need? How can you serve? How can you be a messenger during this time? What is going to come through your channel uniquely? And you might not know exactly. You certainly can't think that through with your brain. You just need to let the words flow from your hand to the page or typing on the computer, however it works for you. But I also think now is really an opportunity for hsps. Once you get grounded and just manage your own fundamentals, there's a real call to serve during this time.

Yeah, because we have this intuition that like you said, I also feel that this is much needed and it will be okay. And there's so many people that don't feel that right now. And so to be able to tell them and yeah, maybe share it on your blog or wherever you. Maybe you're not yet feeling comfortable sharing what you're writing, but at least writing it down for yourself and then hopefully in the future share it also with a wider audience.

Don't you also feel, I don't want to put words into your mouth but a sense of urgency that the world needs heart centered messages at this time. And I think there is a lot of that happening. But I wonder for you Sarah, and actually I'd be curious to hear your take on this because I know some service oriented and heart based business owners, as you know well from Momentum, are feeling a little self conscious. Well, is now the time to launch? Is now the time to do business? Is now the time to send messages to my mailing list? There is some overwhelm from every single business under the sun sending out messages about coronavirus. And on the other hand I feel a real deep need to counterbalance the fear side and the anxiety. And so I wonder what you would advise to others who are thinking, how can I serve during this time without seeming self serving.

Right. What I think right now is a great time to.

Be visible, to be helpful, to prepare for, you know, once we've gone through this and we don't know right now when this is, but right now is the time to.

Be helpful to your community and serve them. And, and I'm not saying that everything, all of your services should all of a sudden be free.

But there is, I think.

Yeah, an opportunity first to help. And right now everybody is suffering, you know, economically. So I don't think it's the best moment to kind of share your six figure program or whatever, but I do think it's the time to serve and show up for them. What about you?

Right now it's all still very shocking and as we said, Sarah, you and I are in parts of the world where it's happening a little earlier than certain other places. So there's going to be this wave of awareness I think that sweeps through. Oh, this is real. This is really happening. Oh, this is really serious. I mean, even just me watching the bubble grow in New York City day by day by day, and it gets bigger and bigger. And so that's going to happen around the country and around the rest of the world, where people realize, oh, this is really serious. This is really going to affect me and us too. Everything is already being shut down, and then it might last two, three months. We all hope it's shorter than that. In my last six months, we don't know. So I do think there's going to come a point where business has to resume because that's in everybody's best interest to keep us all afloat during this time. But business will have to change. So I love what you're saying, that now's the great time to be visible, be helpful. What can you offer? What's your zone of genius? The thing that you do well and that you love? So it's at the intersection of. It's unique. You're uniquely good at it, and you love it. It brings you joy. For me, it is podcasting, not writing. It's podcasting. And it's not video. It's podcasting. So how do you hone in on the one way you like to serve and then building on that without knowing where it's going to take you? So having a little faith in the process. And when business does resume, it's about getting creative. How can you do the work you need to do in a new way? And leaders are going to have to ask that question. Organizations will have to ask that question. Think about how many companies are going through a major pivot right now where they would have never let their entire workforce work from home. You know, they would have never allowed that. They would have said, we can't collaborate that way. Inefficient enough work won't get done. Well, now they have no choice. So now they're saying, oh, okay, how do we continue to be collaborative and innovative? How do we. Without falling into fatigue? Because I'm also seeing a quadrillion zoom sessions right now, and I can't stand being on video all day. I feel so frozen in place in front of my computer, it drives me nuts. So I'm going to record a podcast soon on screen. Fatigue and basically imploring people. Do not make every meeting a video meeting or people are going to lose their mind.

It's true. And I also think there is going to be actually.

A sense of wanting to do more. No more webinars, for example, I'm thinking because we do want to be heard and seen. And we do want to all, you know, be able to contribute and not just be sitting in the sidelines and sit there and listen to the guru. So in a way, I think these two months will have a huge impact on how we collaborate. And by collaboration, I really also mean these big businesses, but also kind of the marketing gurus who up till now.

They just excluded everyone else and it was just them who were running the show. But now everybody is going to know how to use Zoom, for example, and everybody's learning how to communicate via these tools. They want to be heard and seen. They don't want to just attend all these anonymous webinars anymore. That's what I see coming. It's like we now know how this online world works. Let us participate.

Absolutely. And people are going to step into their own leadership shoes. So it might be learning. I don't mind, I don't mind webinars and being a passive recipient sometimes. But I have an outlet, you know, I have the momentum community, I have the podcast. So I think if somebody doesn't have that, they're going to feel really, a lot of people will feel very called to create that or to finally get that thing off the ground or finally hit publish. Even if it isn't perfect, there's. This is not a time for perfectionism because nothing can be perfect. None of us can know what's happening. And if you sit on things for too long, the world's going to change around you. It's not going to be relevant anymore. So I also think this is going to call people to rise when you're passively receiving content. Great. That's kind of part of the resting and recharging, unless it's a business meeting. But for me, I'm so grateful. Many of my yoga studios, even ones I haven't been able to get to for years, are now streaming their classes. I'm so thankful that I can take from some of my favorite teachers from my room. I'm so thankful for the content providers who are providing interesting, thought provoking content during this time. You know, a lot of us, it is a time to pause and think about what really matters. I love the content that's been oriented toward that. I'm always the type and I'm thankful to watch it on the recording. You know, but what you said, I think that you're right. People are going to want to make sure that they're also active and there's going to be certain formats or certain types of calls where people want to be seen and heard. And it's so important how you just called that out. I'm really glad that you did.

You also mentioned self leadership, which I think is like I see it with my 13 year old. They are now being asked to get organized and you know, do all the studying from home. They get a ton of emails at the beginning of the week and could easily learn lead to overwhelm. But so they're being asked to step up and I told my son this morning, I'm like, well this is exactly your learning skills that you would never learn at school. You're learning them now and they will help you so much for later because.

You'Re self leading yourself now and that is going to happen not just for scholars, but for everybody. Right. Like you're on your own. So many people have never worked from home. The two of us, we've been doing this for a long time. So it's no big deal. But I talk to people who, you know, they don't know how to organize their days and I think you mentioned it on one of your podcasts as well. It's like you have to have structure and how do you really organize your day? So this self leadership is really going to be also one of the big changes, I believe.

What do you think the unique challenges are going to be for empaths and highly sensitive people to step up during this time? And then what do you think the advantages are?

Well, what comes up is this overwhelm. So that's something that we I think are, are more prone to. So I think we need to be very careful with, again, what is our own and what can we control and what can we not control? So for example, if I'm an employee and I can't all of the sudden feel responsible for everyone on my team, I still need to say, okay, I'm responsible for my stuff and somebody else does not know how to get organized, then I can't help everyone. So yeah, I see that as kind of a potential risk. So be very mindful with your, with your energy and again what you can focus on. And I guess the intuition, maybe not the intuition, but what I feel as well as maybe that has more to do with the INFJ side that we're also both this self motivation. So this intrinsic motivation that is definitely.

An advantage that I see that I don't have problem with, you know, being motivated and organizing my days. What would you say was this intrinsic motivation? Is that something specific to you empaths or.

Well, I love that you said that. I didn't think about that, because I do have that in Gretchen Rubin's framework. What does she call it? The upholder that. The one that upholds their own goals. And they don't need to. They don't really need outside accountability to do things or get things done. Yeah, there's. So there's the upholder, the questioner. I'm a little bit of both those. Then there's the obliger. That does much better with an outside person asking for things they do better committing to others than to themselves. And the rebel. The rebel just questions everything, and you can't tell rebel what to do. Which I married one.

Yeah, I love. I love what you said. I definitely think intuition is a superpower right now. If you're an empath and you're highly sensitive, you can really get a subtle, nuanced read on what. Not just what's happening, but what the world needs. And I think you're going to feel that more acutely. More specifically, you can tune into your own journey, your own ups and downs. And I know I've certainly been doing that. And I just, a couple years ago, was working on Pivot, which is my second book, there was a point where I just realized, oh, I think I go through certain things a little early, and if I just pay attention to my journey and my process and how I solve things, that will be helpful for people. It took me time to get there because I just thought, well, this is what everyone is going through or this is what everyone has solved. And I do think if you're an empath or highly sensitive, you may have a slight earlier jump on certain things by you experiencing them. And at a deeper level, you can serve and solve and share at a deeper, more intricate or more specific level.

And I always need to be reminded of that because I do truly always think everybody else feels the same things or sees the same things. And sometimes I just think it's Tony, my husband, who just doesn't have the same kind of sensors. But, yeah, when I, like you said before, when someone walks next to you and you can just tell that they've just received some terrible news or they're just, you know, not in a good place. And the person next to you, and usually it's my husband Tony, he's like, what are you talking about? How can you, you know, why did. I'm like, well, just something on their face or. Yeah, I can just tell. And so. So I think the same applies, I guess, to, to the bigger picture. The. The. Yeah. This idea of what people need right now. And it's very interesting that you say that. Thanks, Jenny.

I love what you said too about don't try to boil the ocean, basically. And be specific about how you want to help and who you want to help during this time. So it's probably coming to try to say, well, I mean, I will say my personal mission for a long, long time has been to be as helpful as possible to as many people as possible. But within that, I'm not trying to be the news media at the same time that I'm trying to be a medical professional at the same time that I'm trying to be author of a book on change. I can't be all those things. There are certain things that I don't have the expertise, the experience or the, or the call to do, basically. And so I have to look and say who can I be most helpful to and how. For me it's companies, it's individuals. It tends to be people working in information related jobs, things where that work is in front of the computer, whether as an entrepreneur or maybe it's big tech companies. And then how again, I can bring in guests on my podcast, but I have to stay focused on what I can do, which is just what topics or what am I experiencing around this and how do I talk about that in an open, authentic, real time, in the moment way. That's something we're going to need to ask. Otherwise it can be overwhelming and paralyzing that if you try to be all things to all people during this time, that's it's just going to be overwhelming because there is so much need around the world. And for me, the flip side of that is that I have to drop the guilt. Sometimes I feel very guilty and privileged, you know, in doing this work. I feel how dare I talk about working from home tips while people are dying, you know, or how dare I have a lightness in my voice or record this portion of an essay in a joyful way. People are dying. So I do have this voice in my head that will sort of like harangue me and says like how dare you be happy right now? People are dying. How dare you talk about these, how dare you move on to these other topics and not constantly caveat it. You know, even my I was very self conscious telling you the whole food story because what a privilege to just get to be, well, get up and go to Whole Foods and have a Whole Foods down the street and have the funds to buy the groceries from Whole Foods. So there's just this whole chain of privilege, visible and invisible that I'm really aware of. And I just have to make the choice to serve who I can and not get bogged or weighed down too much by the heaviness and the extremes of what's going on you mentioned.

So protecting our energy I think is super important and that's somehow related to guilt. Because if I say no to another webinar or another zoom call, that I could be doing again for free and again putting this up. It always takes us time as well. And yes, we have this really drive to help, but at the same time, if we're and I know this from experience, from my over giving burnout, which I talk about a lot on my podcast, it's like, well, as empaths, giving comes so naturally to us that actually what we need to learn is how to protect our energy and not feel guilty about protecting our energy. So when people ask me, could you do this, could you do that? I will always first check my energy and how long will it take me to put this up? Is it an easy thing I can do to help? Then yes, I will most definitely do everything I can. However, time is so important and especially right now. I, you know, I have a family that is now home, I need to cook more, etc. Etc. So always thinking about protecting my energy first as well, because it's kind of like the mask on the plane. If we don't have the energy for ourselves, then we can't help anymore either.

I'm so glad you mentioned over giving burnout and the guilt or dropping the guilt around saying no and being discerning with time. I've noticed myself as well as just the influx of communications overall. So much of it's very positive, people checking in, how are you doing? Especially now in New York. It's coming from a lot of places that just gets overwhelming for me in general, even when we're not in a pandemic, is just communication and pings and messages. But I've noticed there are certain requests that have come in where I feel it's not an instant yes, it's not a whole body yes. And then I feel a little guilty. Well, shouldn't I be helping during this time? Shouldn't I be saying yes? And what I'm trying to do is find a win win or a way to honor my own intentions during this time. So for example, you asked me to do this podcast and I was so happy for the topic and I just said I'd love that and can I release it on mine as well. Perfect. Someone wrote and said, can we kind of pick your brain on remote working? And I said, why don't you and your team get huddled huddle together, send me your questions, and I'll record it as a podcast, because I want to do a session on that anyway. So I'm trying to shift, because especially today, before some of those requests came in, I realized I've got to clear my calendar. I cannot just go into my default calendaring mode and pack this thing up. I need extra time, extra space, just like you said, both for emotional wellness, taking care of things on the family and the home front, and just the space to really process and feel into what's happening. I think it would be such a miss if we just steamrolled over this space and quiet and time with a bunch of meetings, which is so tempting right now because everyone wants to schedule meetings because everyone's home. So I think there's going to be a big call for all of us to strengthen our no muscles or strengthen our pivot, the request muscle of how can you shift that into something that you might already be doing.

Yeah, exactly. Using our time effectively and efficiently. And yet that always comes with a little guilt trip as well. I might just, you know, taking advantage of this situation. But no, you're not. And I think I've mentioned on my podcast Essentialism, the book by Greg McCowan that really changed my life. And saying no in a gentle way, because we can't say no in a gentle way way. And I think that's also what we're being asked to do here.

I love Essentialism, too. It's such a. Such a good one. I've. I haven't had Greg on the Pivot podcast, but. Oh, he's. I know. He's so good with how. He's. How he talks about that. Every time you say yes to something, you're saying no to something else. So you better get real clear on what that is.

I was thinking kind of to wrap it up here, I would love for you to, you know, you have a big audience in the U.S. my audience is a bit all over the place, but there's definitely people in the US as well. Knowing what we know, being a bit ahead of the curve, maybe we can just kind of share. What would you like to share with your fellow Americans? And I would probably include also British, because in England, they're still kind of behind on the curve as well. And maybe social distancing is not yet so much in the. Yeah. On people's minds. So what would you Share with people.

I'll speak to the more emotional side, I guess I would say know that there will be a roller coaster. I mean, I would never want to project that. Some of you might not have any downs. You know, that's fine. But there may be an emotional rollercoaster. You may feel extra drained, extra tired, extra sad. You may pick up on the energy of others around you even when you're not feeling that way. So the biggest thing I would say is as you. As the wave of social distancing and shelter at home starts to go to where you are, really take the time to get quiet before you even jump into action and jump into trying to turn your mindset around and make the most of this. Let yourself be. This is such a powerful time and there's so many gifts that are going to come in. We don't even know what they are yet. This is really a. It's not a short term thing. So take the time to be and rest and process and go slower than you think. And trust that when you are moved to act, you will know when you have the energy and the inspiration, ride those waves. Absolutely. And you feel a specific call to serve, go for it. But don't put pressure on yourself to get there sooner than you need to. And take extra time to rest because this will be more tiring than I think you can anticipate. How about you?

Yeah, it's so interesting. I really had this week where I thought, I'll never finish this book. I don't have the motivation. Like, it was like this huge wet blanket was thrown over me and I, yeah, like I didn't recognize myself because usually I'm, you know, someone very driven. I get up in the morning and go straight to work and I couldn't do anything. So, yeah, really give yourself permission to just be and realize that we've never experienced this. So this is very different. And it can be very scary. And not just because of the health issues, but also because of the, you know, the unknown, of the economic impact. So I would definitely say, yeah, give yourself permission to be. And then kind of like what we discussed once you feel like, okay, now I think I can help. You don't have to solve this problem. You can't. So just focus on the few people where you think you can help and kind of apply everything we shared on this podcast, like protect your energy and help when it makes sense to help.

I would add, if you feel yourself getting disappointed that this was going to be my year, this was going to be my decade, I had all these plans for 2020. So it reminded me, Sarah, when you talked about the book. And for me, I weirdly booked my first airport run of Pivot to be in airports. 50 airports, May, June and July. And airports are practically vacant now. So there's a very bizarre. But I think to myself, well, what was important to me about that marketing experiment? I almost never do any outbound marketing. So that's what's funny about it, I think, oh, it was my year to step up and really be center stage with Pivot and really claim my space. Okay, well, that's happening just in a very unexpected way. It's as if the universe is playing the opposite game with us. Not with our intentions and our vision of how we want to to show up, but the circumstances around that have now done it almost a 180. So my inquiry to all of you, my invitation would be look at the intentions that you set before all of this started happening and ask, well, how is this change in circumstances actually even more ripe or fertile ground for me to work toward those intentions and just try on that shift in perspective.

Yeah, I have a friend who was supposed to host a huge conference about the future of business, and it was all about using more intuition and heartfelt business. And so it got postponed. And of course, yeah, there's a year of work and a big financial commitment and she was very disappointed. But at the same time.

It will be so much better because people will be so ready for that message in the fall or in the winter when the conference will happen again. And I think it's the case for many of our projects and my book, hopefully, and other things that heart centered people are working on because this is opening our hearts, this whole.

It's so needed in a way.

And maybe you're going to get insights for your book that you would have never gotten if this weren't happening. Or you're getting the time and space and the almost permission. Now is the time for deep work, but we will have to carve that out.

Wonderful. Well, how should we end this? Do we want to just share how people can find you and I share how people can find you?

Sure, that sounds great.

All right, you go first.

I've been doing a whole series of daily podcasts now on Pivoting around a Pandemic. You can find all of those@pivotmethod.com podcast and there's a free toolkit of exercises. They're not pandemic related or anything, but just to work through exercises from the book Pivot and that's@pivotmethod.com toolkit and for all of you solopreneurs, which I know, Sarah, you have many in your audience you can go to pivotmethod.com FFT is my free up founder time. It's a free mini course for small business owners and I think you'll find it particularly helpful during this time where so much of the nature of our work is shifting.

Yeah, and I think it's also kind of related to the essentialism. Really make sure that you're only working on the essentials and kind of cutting back on the non essentials. I have a podcast that is called the Gentle Business Revolution. You can find that either on itunes or@thegentbusinessrevolution.com and my main website is sarahs.

And croce.com Amazing Sarah. Thank you so much for reaching out to do this and big thanks to everybody who's here listening.

Thank you so much for coming on. I think this has been an amazing conversation and hopefully it'll be helpful to fellow empaths and hsps.

I certainly hope so too. And if you listen and you have extra tips that we haven't covered, I would love to hear. Let us know on either of our two channels.

Thanks Jenny.

Thank you Sarah. Thanks everybody.

Thanks so much for listening to this episode of the Pivot podcast. Make sure you don't miss an episode or my insider tips and templates by signing up for Pivot List, a curated twice monthly newsletter where I share the inside scoop on what I'm reading, watching, listening to and the latest tools I'm geeking out on. Sign up@pivotmethod.com pivotlist get show notes from this episode@pivotmethod.com podcast and connect with me me on Twitter at Jenny Blake.

Remember, build first, then your courage will follow. Hasn't it always.