178: 📕Book Club — 3 Big Ideas from SAVING TIME by Jenny Odell

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Actually, what are those things that don't take time? That it gives time, it gives life, it gives energy, it gives joy. And for the first time yesterday I had this click that these walks trying to fit in sometimes up to three hours of outings in a given day. It's not taking time, it's not taking away from my work. It's giving me life, it's giving me energy. But it wouldn't look like that from the outside through just a productivity culture output maximized efficiency lens.

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Hi friends. I'm gonna play around with an experimental format today and that is book club. I haven't yet landed an interview with this author, but I really loved the book. It might be one that's already on your radar called Saving Discovering a Life beyond the Clock by Jenny o'. Dell. I've shied away from doing too much digging into other people's books, partly because in the early days of podcast interviewing, we're talking eight years. The early days of eight years ago. I remember somebody telling me that my interviews were kind of like a book report, that I was so interested in the book itself and diving in chapter by chapter, point by point that I wasn't really as present as I could have been with the authors sitting in front of me while we're recording. And also somebody's book is kind of a fossilized record of their ideas and their experiences and their stories. It's often put to bed like even a year prior to landing in readers hands. So just focusing on a book itself is not as fresh as discussing with the author the process of writing the book, what they've learned since it came out, what's new and fresh for them now. But Today I'm going to indulge my inner bookworm and hopefully yours too. Maybe I'll save you the time of reading saving time. Although of course I love supporting authors and I highly encourage you to buy any and all books that you can. I want to share three big ideas or mindset shifts that sparked aha moments for me while I was reading. A few caveats. This is not a book review. I'm not going to discuss whether I liked the book, whether I didn't like it. You can obviously infer that I like it enough to dedicate an entire podcast episode to the book. But I'm not gonna break it apart. I'm not a book critic. I'm gonna break it apart piece by piece and tell you the good, the bad, and the ugly. It's so much work to create any book. I respect any author who will do it. If you are looking for more of a review, Jenny has gotten great coverage in traditional media. I'll link to two pieces in particular that I appreciated from the New York Times and the New Yorker in the show notes the second caveat. This is not a comprehensive summary. I'm not one of those book summary services. There's even things like Blinkist. There's all kinds of services. There's so many kind of derivative book summaries of the books that I've put out into the world. This is not that. So I'm not giving you a comprehensive take on saving time. I'm giving you the three things that jumped out that I think are most relevant for you. Based on the conversations we're having here about ways to shift your time paradigm and ways to set more of your time free. Without further ado, let's get into three big ideas from Jenny o' Dell's Saving Discovering a Life beyond the Clock.

The first big theme of the book is noticing the paradigm that so many of us are participating in, which is productivity. Specifically productivity that positions us in a race against time. Time even going so far as when you're self employed creating an internal tyranny with all the self timing optimization, body hacking, body tracking, we ourselves tend to chunk our time almost in a way taken from the Taylorist workplace or the factory system. Even if we're now our own bosses, there are so many ways where we replicate and perpetuate this productivity culture where nobody really wins. Now, there are some bigger themes in the book that I'm not going to discuss in terms of social systems as it relates to time and work, leisure, productivity, even climate change is a big topic on her mind. So part of the play on words in the title, Saving Time, is saving time in the biggest macro sense of climate change and what we need to do to save the planet and save ourselves. I tend to focus more on the individual level now. Maybe Jenny and Ko would criticize that because one person can only do so much. We do have to examine the broader systems. But I appreciated her summary of really understanding ways that we have manufactured a sense of time and ways that it's almost invisible to us, but that the very fact of a clock, the very fact of a spreadsheet, of a calendar, of an actual grid mapped onto something as nonlinear as time, creates a false sense of again, racing against the clock. So I really loved this. She was observing her environment. That's how every chapter starts, with some italicized observations. And I've got to read you this part because she was at a shipping yard and we know there's been a lot of supply chain issues the last few years since the pandemic hit, where containers pile up at every port. Tenney writes, on the one hand, it is true that you can see multiple forms of time here. The containers pile up. The shorebirds probe the mud. The phoebe chases its flies. A small brown mushroom pushes up from the grass, and the tide continues to rise. Your stomach rumbles. But one of these clocks is not like the others. In order to maintain its equilibrium, it has to run ahead faster and faster. In this example, she's sharing all these different ways that we experience time, which is not money. We'll get to that. Time is life, time is aliveness. And yet in this example, you're seeing all these natural organic beings. Even your stomach rumbling is its own sort of body clock about when it's time to eat. But the one that's not like the others are these containers piling up. In order to maintain their equilibrium, they have to run ahead faster and faster. And that's part of the rat race that we all often are unconsciously participating in, that the only reward for hard work or fast work is more work. And you know that if you've ever had a job, sometimes it can feel like working harder and faster. There's actually no point, because you just are seen as the star employee and you're just going to get more and more and more work piled onto you. There's that other phrase, if you want something done, give it to a busy person. Great. They're already running, sprinting on the treadmill. Let's throw more their way, because they already have the momentum of productivity and getting things done. But this, obviously we all know, has a point of diminishing returns. This is stating the obvious. I don't have to tell you this, but just calling out that part of the logic of productivity culture is seeing time as private property, as units to hoard. Shenny describes it like a grid spreading outward from the Taylorized workplace. Taylor refers to the 1911 book Principles of Scientific Management by Frederick Winslow Taylor. He was all about streamlining the industrial work process, maximizing efficiency, breaking every task, every roll down into super small optimizable component parts. So describing the Taylorist grid of our time, that's what she's referring to here. I'll read you another excerpt. And this relates to imagining people as machines. In this framework, time is the punitive dimension in which the wage worker is both measured and squeezed. The industrial view of time as money can see time only as work. Like a grid spreading outward from the Taylorized workplace, whether on the warehouse floor or on a gig platform's mobile interface, this framework contributes to a view of individuals who hold time like private property. I have my time and you have yours, and we sell it on the marketplace. Now, it's not just the employer who sees you as 24 hours of personified labor time. It's you too. When you look in the mirror. Back to me. Funny, her name is Jenny too. Back to Jenny. Okay, back to JB2 cents. This is so powerful that if we see ourselves and the units of our day as time, but specifically time to work or rest in order to work or do the work of our business and then the work of the home, we are seeing ourselves as machines. We are seeing our time as primarily for the function of work, therefore money, therefore survival. And that this view is so limiting. You know, in the conversation that I had with Tara McMullen, polling a discussion she had in her book what Works around do we really all have the same 24 hours as Beyonce? That was the name of the live call we did with Charlie Gilkey. It's a section of her book, which I also highly recommend. And so Jenny o' Dell picks this apart as well. She says, in this paradigm of seeing units of time in individual time banks, I have mine and you have yours. And in this world, when I give you some of my time, I have less. Our interactions can be nothing other than transactional. If that isn't true, if you and I exist in a field of mutual influence where time is neither fungible nor commodified, then what could time management mean? She writes, I think it would have to mean, at least in part, some kind of mutually beneficial agreement between you and me about when and how we want to do things. It could even be on a very minuscule scale. One friend and I have an explicit agreement never to apologize for delays in our epistolary email exchange. The understanding is that you'll get to it when you get to it. So here she's just again giving us a thought experiment. What would it look like if we didn't have to hoard our time? If it wasn't so divided, if it wasn't on this grid, if it wasn't just for productivity and doing more with less? That's why some of this literature there's like many of us now, poking at it, including Oliver Berkman. He was on the Free Time podcast. I'll link to his interview in the show Notes. He's also criticizing time management, efficiency, productivity, just this constant squeezing where we wear ourselves down and down and down. One more passage for this big idea of just seeing productivity as a race against time and bringing our awareness to that Jennie tells the story of a characterization in a paper on desynchronized work. She says the sociologist Hartmut Rosa is describing a hypothetical character named Linda, an overwhelmed professor who rushes through her day never having enough time to fulfill all her obligations to students, co workers, family and friends. Expected to be always available, answerable to everyone, with the feeling that she's always falling short and running behind. Not enough time for cooking, not enough time for her lover, not enough time for household work, no time to go for a workout. She does not do enough for her health. Her doctor tells her at the end of the day she is guilty because she is too stressed, not relaxed enough. She does not get her work life balance right. I know I can relate to this description too. I'm sure so many of you can that this time pressure, time scarcity, and then the self flagellation. In a culture that's about optimization and individual achievement, it's then we go to self blame and shame like I'm not optimizing my day well enough. I'm not making the most of it. I'm not healthy enough. I'm not enough. She cites a book called the Burnout Society saying that the drive to maximize production inhabits the social unconscious, producing the achievement subject rather than be disciplined by something or someone external to them. Achievement subjects are entrepreneurs of themselves, DIY bosses propelled from within. Although the achievement subject answers to no one, it nonetheless quote, wears down in a rat race. It turns against itself.

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That brings me to Big Idea Number two, Jenny's emphasis on helping us see and embrace the roads not taken. There will always be regret for the roads not taken, but we can embrace the ones that we have. We can allow limits rather than a hedonic treadmill of perpetual wanting and striving. And we can even embrace deliberate mediocrity continuing from this idea of an achievement subject or being our own boss, which is inherently fraught with uncertainty and not having very much economic security sometimes, if we were going through a rocky economy, she says. If you are truly an achievement subject who is only wearing yourself down, then I suggest an adjustment of discretion, experimenting with what looks like mediocrity in some parts of your life. Then you might have a moment to wonder why and to whom it seems mediocre. Of course, accepting a life with less of a certain type of ambition is not the same as settling for a life with less meaning. Deciding what can be said supposedly mediocre entails asking what you want within the limits of your human life, not to mention the fact that it has a limit at all. This means pulling back from social media, pulling back from compare and despair. It means that we can choose how ambitious we want to be in certain areas and how mediocre, quote unquote we want to be where? Who gets to define what mediocre is? How? That's what I love about this idea that we're pulling out. I'll link in the show notes to my friend Kathy Onetto's great podcast Sustainable Ambition. And again, Oliver Berkman's book 4000 Weeks and we'll link to his interview are also talking about this like we cannot be all things to everybody. We cannot be the perfect optimized specimen that Gets it all done with grace and ease and joy and still is trying to maximize every second of a 24 hour time cycle or of a day, of a week, of a year. It's too much pressure. So decide where do you want to be mediocre? And what does that even mean, mediocre? To whom can you opt out of some of the striving and sort of limitless achievement? And Susan Sontag calls it the acquisitive mood acquisition culture that social media is so good at putting in front of us. Both paid ads, there's like always something new to buy or what we see people in our broader network which includes the entire planet. At this point, it's not just each of our individual friends. It gives us eyes bigger than our time stomach to pick a bunch of metaphors. I'll give you an example of this. When we first brought Ryder home, it was December of 2019, so I had no clue what was around the corner. By the time the pandemic hit, my business was severely impacted. And yet I'm dealing with this puppy who's growing, who has so much energy, who's a little smarty, he gets bored easily and neither Michael nor I have the heart to let him sit around the house for eight hours bored out of his mind, looking miserable. We joke that all beings in our house have equal priority and of course we each need to put our oxygen mask on first. But we do put a lot of emphasis into taking care of Ryder and making sure he has a great life. I have a lot of regrets from our family dog that I had growing up. I don't feel I took as I could have gave her enough attention, playtime stimulation. And to be fair, we got her when I was in seventh grade. I didn't really know better, but I feel sad sometimes when I look back on her life experience. And I am trying to do the best that I can with Ryder. So for the first few years of trying to navigate the pandemic, it really wore me down just dealing with the business uncertainty and all these outings. There was just now all this rider care that I was trying to make room for while being relatively newly married. And it just felt so overwhelming. I mean, one of the early episodes of the show is are you drowning, treading water or gliding? And at many points I felt like I was drowning. Then yesterday I'm at the park with Ryder. I've been taking him out. Now at 1:30 I leave my desk because the park is least crowded. I figure everyone else is working, especially during the week and so there we are. I'm lying in this grass on the hill at 1:30. He got tired after I threw his big stick enough times. And so I'm laying there looking up at the sky. It's bright blue. It's chilly. It's like 32 degrees, which I love, actually. I have my puffy coat on. Feels like I'm just laying on a pillow of clouds and marshmallows. I look up and I see the two hawks that I wrote about in the conclusion of Free Time. Maybe these are a different two hawks. I'm sure probably they are. But these hawks were circling, and I always felt, even years ago, it would comfort me when I saw them. Something about it felt lucky and just beautiful watching these hawks glide and soar through the sky and circling the park. And yesterday they were kind of low down, and I just thought, I am so lucky. Here I am, it's 1:30 and I'm just laying in the grass listening to podcasts, looking at these hawks, playing with my beautiful, happy puppy. And, you know, he's not a puppy anymore, but my beautiful dog, like, who's so blissed out when he's just chasing a stick and watching nature that it makes me so happy. And it was the first time I felt like this doesn't have to be such a struggle and I don't have to feel guilty. Oh, I should be working. I left my computer at 1:30. That's so early that actually, moments like this don't take time, they give time. And that relates to this quote that I share in the acknowledgments to Michael. His favorite book is the Little Prince. And this line is that true love is inexhaustible. The more you give, the more you have. And so allowing limits, like limits to my workday, to how much I can put in, and then almost being, like, deliberately mediocre in terms of how much I'm producing in a given day. Or as my friend Laura thankfully put it, strategic and efficient. I'm able to go to the park and listen to podcasts and ponder and be in nature and think and make connections so that I could create episodes like this one. Actually, what are those things that don't take time? That it gives time, it gives life, it gives energy, it gives joy. And for the first time yesterday, I had this click that these walks trying to fit in, sometimes up to three hours of outings in a given day. It's not taking time, it's not taking away from my work. It's giving me life. It's giving me energy, but it wouldn't look like that from the outside through just a productivity culture output maximized efficiency lens. Okay with that. JB tangent aside, let's come back to this idea of allowing limits. We're still in Big Idea number two. There's a whole section of the book on leisure because of course, when you think about time and free time, we also think about leisure. And I'll link to the recent solo of A Soda on that, where I kind of say free time is not just for the fun days, but specifically as it relates to social media and experience consumption and exhibitionism. Jenny o' Dell writes that we probably could not have foreseen how social media would supercharge the experience economy, the world itself becoming a 24 hour 3D emporium of potential 2D backdrops. In the context of the experience economy, Instagram, billed as social, is better understood as a shopping app, a marketplace for both hawking and browsing those acquisitions, whether in actual ads or the pictured lives of friends.

Of Skipping a few paragraphs. As the tourism industry has long understood, producing these experiences requires extraction and refinement, the removal of a husk of context, just as in any other commodity like coffee beans or sugar whose specificities and conditions of production are hidden away. To come full circle on this idea, she says, denying the logic of increase means allowing the idea of limits, including the limit of one's own life. No matter how optimized, healthy and productive I am, I simply will not become more or better forever. Which means there are things I will never do and never be. Just like this book, which could have been anything when I started it. My life will take some paths and not others, and then it will end. The thread pulled out of the ball with no witch to indulge me by taking it back. Realizing that I cannot be everything is in one sense incredibly freeing. It means I'm not responsible for being everything. Yet the fact that life ends for anyone who enjoys being alive and in the world is also inherently sorrowful.

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The third Big Idea, which goes so nicely with the recent solo episode on the street art that I passed in New York City Imagine a World of Abundance is about cultivating time abundance. And I want to give you a metaphor from Jenny's book. She's really always in nature and pulling so much wisdom from nature. What if time could be gardened? Okay, humor me on this one, because I loved her mix of nature and observing and how it would change that grid like rigid clock sense of time to something more from the natural world. She writes, what is a clock? If it's something that quote, tells the time, then my branch was a clock. But unlike the clock at home, it would never return to its original position. Instead, it was a physical witness and record of overlapping events, some of which happened long ago and some of which are still occurring as I write this. This exercise in observation of this branch and a tree by her house is an example of what I have come to think of as unfreezing something in time. To do this means releasing something or someone from their bounds as a supposed stable individual entity existing in abstract time, seeing them not only as existing within time, but also as the ongoing materialization of time itself. Here it's important for me to note the difference between seeing the tree as evidence of time and seeing it as symbolic of time. The tree in front of you is encoding time and change at this moment. So I love this idea of what if a branch is a clock? It's different than a regular clock that is always circling back. There's this joke, this meme, time is a flat circle because that's what a clock is. It's an abstract rendering of some way that we've all agreed to measure time. But if time is more like a branch, it means it's organic, it's evolving, it's encoding time, and it's encoding change. And that's more similar to us as human beings, to being part of the natural world, that there is no going back. We don't go back over ourselves. We are growing and evolving and encoding all these past versions of ourselves as we move through life. So, keeping on this theme, what if time could be gardened? Jenny writes, would it be possible not to save and spend time, but to garden it by saving, inventing, and stewarding different rhythms of life? And wouldn't this simply be an acknowledgment and use of the chronodiversity that already exists for all of us on some level, individually or communally? If time can be gardened, then it's also possible to imagine its increase in ways other than individual hoarding. I just love this idea that what if you could garden time, you know, what if we didn't see it as a commodity that we have to hoard, that there's a limited, fixed amount of kind of a scarcity mindset toward our time? And what if instead of just saving and spending it, we could garden it, we could cultivate it, we could save, invent steward these different rhythms of life? As she writes, I love thinking about this, and maybe the example I gave you of being with Ryder is a way of gardening time, actually enriching the soil of my time, of my life of love. Drawing from the Little Prince, there's the part that Michael told me about when we first started dating. That's one of his favorite lines in the book. And it really has come to mean so much to me, too. So the Little Prince is taking care of his rose, and he goes to look at a whole field of roses. He says, you are not at all like my rose. As yet you are nothing. No one has tamed you, and you have tamed no one. You are like my fox. When I first knew him, he was only a fox, like a hundred thousand other foxes. But I have made him my friend, and now he is unique in all the world. And the roses were very much embarrassed. You are beautiful, but you are empty, he went on. One could not die for you. To be sure, an ordinary passerby would think that my rose looked just like you, the rose that belongs to me. But in herself alone, she is more important than all the hundreds of you other roses. Because it is she that I have watered. Because it is she that I have put under the glass globe. Because it is she that I have sheltered behind the screen. Because it is for her that I have killed the caterpillars, except the two or three that we saved to become butterflies. Because it is she that I have listened to when she grumbled or boasted or even sometimes when she said nothing. Because she is my rose. This is such a beautiful notion that maybe a field of roses all look the same from the outside. But what makes it your rose is precisely the time, love, and energy that you Pour into caring for your rose. So anybody that you love in your life, a partner, a pet, your business, I mean, I know business is not an organic, evolving being, but in its own way, for all of us, it is. It's your business, it's your rose. The relationships that you pour your time and energy and love into are special because they have had this sustained attention from you over the years. And in doing that, it's not just two separate entities anymore. There's a third entity which is the relationship which you're cultivating and gardening. And it just goes so far beyond this transactional save and spend. Hoard, give, take. It's so much richer and deeper than that to close out this third big idea. There's a point where Jenny realizes that she was thinking of time and even giving in a kind of scarcity mindset kind of way. And she's nothing about the book is like woo, spiritual. So maybe I'm saying it a little bit wrong. She said that like many other people, she started stocking up at the beginning of the pandemic. And she of course was stocking canned goods, non perishables like beans. And I think someone had given her some beans and she felt like, oh, she needed to reciprocate or thank them or kind of returned the favor somehow. Then she decided to Google, can you plant store bought beans? And the answer was yes. So all of a sudden, the beans that she had purchased and the beans she had been given were not just commodities. She says, sure, you could eat them, but they weren't endpoints and they weren't dead. At least some of them contained something, the possibility of future beans.

And she said as she told more friends about this, it became an inside joke. Time is not money, time is beans. She writes, it was as serious as many jokes are, which is to say about half. Saying it meant that you could take time and give time, but also that you could plant time and grow more of it, and that there were different varieties of time. It meant that all of your time grew out of someone else's time, maybe out of something someone planted long ago. It meant that time was not the currency of a zero sum game. And that sometimes the best way for me to get more time would be to give it to you. And the best way for you to get some time would be to give it back to me. If time were not a commodity, then time, our time, would not be as scarce as it seemed just a moment ago. Together we could have all the time in the world. Both Jenny and I, in various Points in free time. In the Flab copy, I say, time is not money, time is life force. And she is saying very similar things that time is not money. She spends an entire book debunking that and then cites this essay that I want to leave you with to close out from the book, the Burnout Society that I mentioned earlier that they found. A piece by Peter Handke called Essay on Tiredness. Hanka compares divisive tiredness, the isolating exhaustion of burnout, with a more resigned tiredness that trusts in the world. Here's a quote. Too worn out to grasp and forced to sit back, the tired and resigned person finds that something else floods in the world in all its detail. It's constantly acting in infinitely dispersed agents and its minute by minute changes. Hantka writes, my tiredness articulated the muddle of crude perception and with the help of rhythms, endowed it with form, form as far as the eye could see. Jenny writes that this tiredness is an inherently destabilizing experience, a loss of individual power that helps us find a home in something larger. And then this is like layers of layers of layers of quotes now. But the authors of Verdant Society say that deep tiredness loosens the strictures of identity. Things flicker, twinkle and vibrate at the edges. So here we can embrace a sense of tiredness that leads to surrender, that leads not into that crispy feeling of burnout, but that resigned tiredness that trusts in the world, that resigned tiredness that it's okay if you're tired. It's understandable. We're working in such a wildly accelerating crush of capitalism in terms of production. I mean, even now, the speed at which ChatGPT writes content, there's no way we could possibly keep up in a certain sense. So if we embrace the tiredness that comes from that way of being in that paradigm of time, we can sit back and actually use that tiredness to soften our gaze and to soften our way of being in the world. And so she, toward the conclusion, says, what if time is aliveness? And that's what I want to leave you with today, thinking of time as aliveness. That's very similar to what I said for free time. Time is not money. Time is life force. Time is love. Time is so much bigger than work and production and output. So you hereby have permission to be tired, to be, quote, unproductive, to stop optimizing every micro moment of your day, to do less, to be free. Thank you so much for listening. I hope you have a beautiful rest of your day.

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