179: Video-Free Business and Intuitive Writing with Jacqueline Fisch

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So when we think of intuition, we often think of clairvoyance. We hear the term clairvoyant, that's someone who sees their information. So I think our intuition works differently for everyone or can be a combination. Mine is in knowing, which is really challenging to articulate. When I just know something will be okay, I'm like, no, we need to go this way. Why? I don't know. I can't tell you.

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Welcome back Free Timers. I am so excited to be here today with Jacqueline Fish. She is an author, copywriter and communications consultant. She worked in corporate for 13 years before pivoting to run her own business. She's the founder of the Intuitive Writing School. As soon as I saw that in her email signature I thought, aha, you have to come on the podcast. Because she helps writers make progress on their passion projects and also creative business owners to sound more like themselves in their writing, which we all need. She has helped hundreds of clients, tech startups, coaches, creatives and more learn how to communicate more authentically and stand out in a busy online world. Now overcome with chatbots, she's also the author of Unfussy, An Intuitive Approach to Navigating Change and the soon to be published Intuitive the Remedy for Writer's Block. Jack, welcome to the show.

Thank you Jenny for having me. I'm so excited to chat.

We've got to give Britt Kolo a shout out. She does marketing personalities based on mbti. She helped this serendipity popcorn pop. So thank you Britt for putting us together.

Love this. Thank you so much Britt.

Before we hit record you came to the call and sometimes guests. Unfortunately the software I use, Riverside fm, it often starts with video on and sometimes people get a little freaked out for a minute. They think oh no, is this going to be a video interview but yours was off from the jump, which I love. And before we hit record you said, yeah, I set a rule. I quit video in my business. I just want to start there. When did you make this decision and how does that manifest in your day to day?

I love video free life. I made the decision in fall 2022. So I'd always been on video. I've been in my online business for five plus years and I was using Zoom before the world started using Zoom in 2020. So it was just a thing, it was always there. So I was used to it. As an introvert and as someone who is conscious of my creative energy, I noticed that more and more being on Zoom felt tiring. So there was definitely pieces to that. So the default setting is to show your self view which right away as soon as I figured out you could hide that because we would never have a conversation with anyone while looking in the mirror. Like it's just weird. Would never do that. So I would always hide my self view so I wouldn't be conscious of that. But then after a time I was like, no. I found video to be distracting not just for me, but for my clients and writing community. You see people fixing their hair, you're concerned with their background. Oh look, a cat. It's like, wait, what did you say? There's no, there's no quiet anymore. So making this shift to turn it off, which I just decided one day, I told my clients. Some of them I told ahead of time, like, hey, I'm not gonna be on video anymore. It's helping my creative energy. Some were like, awesome, great. And what I found initially, most people were really excited about it. They were like, oh, thank you. And they're like, I wish I could do that too. I'm like, you can, you can unplug your camera and go about your day and go about your business. It helps us listen to not only who we're talking to, but ourselves. And the other thing that's brought back is walking phone calls. So having calls that you can take with people and they'll just go outside for a walk.

I love a good walking phone call. Those are the best. Especially when I used to think it needed to be a business meeting. But then I'll just tell people I'll be walking from for these two hours in the afternoon, call me, just try me, I'll be outside. It will be delightful. And I love how you modeling this in your business and saying so explicitly, I quit video in my business has given other people permission slip to be a Little bit radical in their own business. I'm curious, are there things that you say no to because they're on video? Are there people or even podcasters that you say no or how do you negotiate this? Do you actually respond and say, hey, I noticed by default you put a zoom link. Can we switch this to a phone call? Because I've been doing that for sure since 2020.

I'm okay with zoom. Usually if it's their zoom link, I'll let them know, hey, I use audio only just because zoom is so much easier than phone calls and on my zoom link. So I made a couple changes right away. I updated all my meeting software to say we're going to meet on audio only. So some people are relieved because they come to the call, but like don't need my video on. And then my waiting room and my personal meetings. It reminds them we're meeting audio only to help nurture our creative energy. Take a deep breath. I'll see you in a minute. So that kind of thing. There has been, I want to say, maybe two opportunities that I had to turn down because I wouldn't do video. And they were a podcast where they wanted to do a video series. And I was like, no, I don't need to do that. And maybe in one situation I was doing a live event and I mean it was an in person event and they were going to record a piece of it and I just asked them not to record a certain part of it. So far it hasn't been a problem, I think. And actually the funny thing, maybe not funny, it's almost on purpose. The week I quit video, I had the best week in business really since I started.

There's that intuitive and universe reinforcement for you. You also mentioned that you've been more focused. Tell me about that connection. How has video turning video off or making the statement, the decision that you quit video, how has it helped you in your day to day business?

So I always still get ready for work each day. I still get dressed. I put makeup on every day even though I'm not on video. It's just something I do. It's been a long time habit. So doing that sets that habit that I'm showing up for work. I'm here to put my head down and focus and do stuff. And knowing that I don't have to think about what's behind me. Is there laundry behind me? Like what's my hair doing? Does this necklace show? Like my bra strap showing? I don't have to think about any of that. Instead I can listen and I can take notes without looking at the screen. Cause when we're on zoom calls, the expectation is often that we're looking at each other and I don't need to look at you. So it's interesting. Some people will keep their video on even though I'm off, which is. I'm like, okay, you do you, that's fine. I usually just don't look at the screen because I don't need to see you to be able to hear what you need to say. I'm taking notes, pen to paper, listening for those audio cues. If I'm coaching a client, it just helps slow down. The other thing I've noticed is when people are on video, they tend to talk more.

That's fascinating.

They like keep going and I think it's because they're self conscious perhaps. And maybe they also have their self view on so they see themselves so totally in an unscientific way. I feel like they're more efficient because we don't have to see each other and, and focus on all that. We can get down to what we're here to talk about.

Yeah, I can imagine that it's more efficient in every way because you're right, there's a deeper listening. There's still so much richness in people's voices and the body language of the voice that it's more efficient. You're not processing so many data points in any given moment. I'm curious, what did you decide to put intuition front and center in your business? Not just in a skill that you started to embrace or a. I don't know if you call it a skill, but within yourself. But I mean to really wave the flag of intuitive writing as your front and center. This is who I am and what I do. When did that come to pass?

I love this question. It was absolutely something I resisted for a long time. Definitely I wasn't walking around saying that like I'm intuitive. I do all these intuitive things. Having gotten my start in a very corporate world, like working with the government, working with big healthcare and tech, there was no room for creativity or intuition. That was just weird, which I also started to turn on its head a little bit intuitively, not necessarily with a goal. And shortly after I started my copywriting business, I noticed a trend and there were all these kinds of people coming to me that did some kind of intuitive work or they perhaps they called themselves intuitive and I didn't quite get it. It's not like I used that word or had that vibe anywhere on My website, there's a little bit more of that now. And I always felt I had to walk a fine line with that because I think intuition can get a bad rap where it's almost seen as this whoa, whoa, not real, head in the clouds kind of thing. When I really think it's a down to earth embodiment of knowing, it doesn't need to be this flowy thing like wearing white robes and things like that. I didn't want to project that image. I was at a Business Event 2019 and there was an intuitive consultant there. And I asked her, why are all these intuitive type people coming to work with me? I don't understand. And without missing a beat she said, because you're intuitive too. You're claircognizant. I'm nodding my head, yeah, I know what that means. But I didn't know what claircognizant means. I had to go Google it later. So claircognizant is a knowing. So when we think of intuition, we often think of clairvoyance. We hear the term clairvoyant, that's the one who sees their information. So I think we all get our intuitive downloads or our intuition works differently for everyone or can be a combination. Mine is in knowing, which is really challenging to articulate. When I just know something will be okay. I'm like, no, we need to go this way. Why? I don't know. I can't tell you.

Because I got a download. Yeah, right. That's how I am too. Yes.

And most people are like, what? You're crazy. Be quiet. It's trusting and also tracking, not in like a formal way. The more I begin to trust my downloads and trust my knowings, I had more proof that yes, I can trust it. I don't need to put that voice aside. So slowly over time, it's probably been a couple years now where I finally attached that name to my business and I'm mindful of the language I use. It's intuitive and it's grounded. It's intuitive knowing and it's sitting your butt in the chair and doing your work. It doesn't need to be something that's out in the sky.

Say more about that. What does it mean to do intuitive writing? And you know this show because you listen. It's for heart based business owners, many of whom probably already lean into their intuition. What is the difference that you see when people fully embrace intuition in their copywriting, let's say, for their website or newsletter marketing materials? How does it actually show up? What's the differentiating factor.

First of all, if you lean into intuitive writing in all your business writing, your copywriting, it will be so much easier. It'll be better. I often hear people struggle with procrastination, perfectionism, overthinking. They write something and they overthink every little word. Probably 90% of the time people tell me it takes me so long to write. I hear this all the time. My first question is, well, are you trying to edit while you're writing? So that's a big clue that you are not tuned into your intuition if you're editing while you're writing. I think we need to see those two tasks as two very separate things and do them at different times completely. So intuitive writing doesn't happen from our heads, it happens in our body. So think about if you've ever done any stream of consciousness writing or you've done morning pages. So that's a term coined by author Julia Cameron, which is three pages of stream of consciousness just vomited onto the page. Writing first thing in the morning, you're not thinking, you're not editing, you're not censoring. Letting it out. That is how I love all writing to flow. And it's so much easier that way. As an example, I could probably write a really rough draft of a book chapter. And I mean rough. So when I talk about a rough draft, a lot of people don't really picture what that looks like. A rough draft doesn't make a lot of sense. It's probably bullets. There is misspellings all over the place, incorrect words. But it happens really fast. And I can write a really rough book chapter or a blog post in 20, 30 minutes.

That's amazing.

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You said that you wrote a lot of unfussy life over three subsequent NaNoWriMo months, which is all about this type of writing.

Yes, I'm moving away from NaNoWriMo after doing it and seeing what it did to my community after.

Okay, you gotta say more about that too. I don't want to interrupt your thought on intuitive writing, but let's put a pin. I want to hear about that.

So NaNoWriMo is a writing challenge to write 50,000 words in 30 days. So I've always been an advocate to write however many words you want. So it doesn't need to be 50,000 and it doesn't need to be a book. So I would work with my community members and they would work on writing website copy or writing a bunch of blogs. And what I saw that approach 30 days of doing the exact same thing. I found that to be a more masculine, push energy approach. Also just a sidebar. Masculine and feminine energy. Neither is right or wrong or good or bad. We all have both and we need both. However, doing only the masculine for 30 days, especially if you're a woman, can be exhausting. What I found in most cases, people would burn out halfway through. And for myself, I would push through because I have that strong energy to keep going and pushing. I would hit the end of the 30 days and I'd be exhausted. And when I drafted Unfussy Life, I let it sit for almost a year because I was just tired and it didn't come out in a feel good way. A lot of the chapters did, but it was very forced. So this is where I experimented with my community and I'm going to start doing more of this in the Future. Doing a 28 or 29 day writing challenge and it's going to be based on what's going on with the moon. Now if your listeners are thinking, what the heck, why would I write with the moon?

I love this.

I 100% thought that the first time that idea came up too. I was like, what? Why would I do that? That's weird. I'm just going to sit here and get my writing done. However, writing with nature's rhythms, the rhythms that already exist. So we can write with the moon, which has a 29 and a half day cycle, which also has energetic qualities similar to the four seasons, winter, spring. Why do I always have to think of this summer and fall and also aligns with the four phases of a menstrual cycle. If you have one. I did this experiment where we wrote for 30 days, although I'll shorten it next time to 28 or 29. We started on the new moon. So the new moon is a time where the moon is new in the sky. It's dark, there's not a lot of light reflecting back. So to find that light, we look inside, and this is a really great time to do some brainstorming, journaling, making decisions. So during that phase, if we're looking at it, to write a book, that's when we would perhaps outline our book, make some decisions, decide on a topic, decide on a direction, and even think ahead to the writing. Writing time and planting the seeds for what we want that book project to be. Next up is the waning waxing moon. Light is growing in the sky. So think of the energy of spring. Things are starting to sprout out of the ground. Things are starting to turn green. This is a time to start making plans and a really great time to do those rough drafts. So I intentionally plan to do a bunch of rough drafts during that time, then at the full moon, which has energy like the summer. So think bright sun out there shining your light. Great time to let go of things from your writing that no longer serve you or your life or your business. So you might spend that time looking back at what you've written over the past two weeks, making some quick decisions, letting things go. If we're talking beyond writing, it's also a great time to record podcast interviews. So if you do some batching and recording them during a full moon could be super powerful because that's when the light is strong and you're most magnetic. Or if you have a menstrual cycle, that would be your ovulation, because ovulation time is like, hey, I'm out here, eh? Like, let's make a baby. I mean, that's not always the goal. And then the final phase or fourth phase of the cycle, it's not final because it doesn't like it ends and then it begins again. Is the waning moon or the energy of fall or the energy of the luteal phase. So the light is shrinking in the sky and getting smaller. So this is a great time to do revisions and editing, make final little tweaks, attention to detail, super strong during this time. So I intentionally plan book revisions for a few of those cycles because we know it doesn't just happen in one done anytime there was a revision. I had a really strong drive to focus and complete during that time. So that was our NaNoWriMo tangent.

I love it. I know we can call it Nano Momo Moon Month because for those who don't know, it's National Novel Writing Month. That's the long version of the abbreve nanowrimo. I love how you're explaining this, and I know business owners as well who do really big planning cycles at the same time, solstice and the equinox. So you could even at a macro or meta level, start one of the challenges then. But this is so interesting for people to try to write with the phase of the moon. Thank you for explaining it so well, because you could just look up in the sky and get a clue or get a cue as to what energy to tap into that again. Everything else on the planet is tapping into this energy. It's affecting the tides. It's affecting everything. So I love this twist that you've added to the writing challenge. I'm curious if you have been playing around with ChatGPT. A lot of people are saying, wow, this is gonna put copywriters or social media content creators out of business. Now, you and I both know that that's not true, but it is directly kind of in your lane of copywriting. Now, as I ask this, I know you have the intuitive humanity piece that is so prominent in what you te what you do for clients. How are you thinking about this? What do you think is the role of leveraging a tool like ChatGPT and then tell us, like, what's the wrong way to go about it that strips the humanity back out that you've been such an advocate for?

Spoiler alert. I am actively not using any ChatGPT or any ChatGPT tools. Not engaging at all. I'm really glad you asked this. As I was finalizing book revisions for my latest book, ChatGPT was gaining popularity and I was like, okay, I need to say something about this in the book. And you're right. There are definitely some people in the writing community freaking out. It's going to replace my job. It's going to change industries 100%. It already has, and it is changing for copywriting and content creation especially. However, right now, it's also still quite new and it's not that good. So to write my book chapter, I wanted to experiment with it just a little bit. And I didn't actually do it myself because I couldn't get it to work on my computer. I had my husband enter some prompts for me, and I looked at it and I was like, this is generic, emotionless, and just Flat. It's mediocre. So I actually see some people are using it as a tool to beat writer's block and to get something started. I'm also seeing some people use it to create something and then they will actively go in and write the opposite. Because what you get from an AI writing tool is not going to be unique or have that authentic human tone for sure. So where I see the problem with that is these people are training the machine to sound like them and I think that's a dangerous thing. Yes, AI can and is accessing our content already. So if we publish a blog or a book, our work is public. So yes, it is still reading that. However, I'm choosing to not intentionally go play with prompts, add what kind of tone I'm looking for. I'm just opting out completely and keeping my connection with the divine intact, I guess, if you will, and focusing on my creativity in my writing, not taking something from regurgitated from a machine. So yeah, the tools will get better. As far as replacing copywriters, the past few big copywriting projects I've had were all because someone hired a marketing agency who used ChatGPT and the copy sucked if they wanted it to sound human. So there's absolutely lots of roles for authentic writing.

Well, I appreciate you putting that into words. I kind of knew that that would be your take. I'll put a link in the show notes my creative coach, Jay Acunzo. He did a great episode and newsletter called Fine, I'll talk about AI, but it's in exactly the context that you are, which is that if you're writing effectively, intuitively, as you said, connected to the divine, that can't be replicated, that can't be replaced. What Jay talks about too is why are you so afraid of what ChatGPT is going to do? If you are, it means maybe you're not tapped into what makes you unique and authentic voice and your stories and your own vulnerability. And that's been my experience. I've been having a lot of fun playing around with it. It's concerning how there's no sources cited that bothers me as a writer and creator, because I always try to give credit where it's due. I think it's kind of weird that instead of doing a Google search where you can trace where ideas come from and give credit, ChatGPT just gives it to you as if it hasn't done that. That's just not entirely true. It's not true at all.

Yep.

So I find that I really admire authors and books where I see the ingredients that they're cooking with. They'll quote people across history, they'll bring in a tidbit from a TV show, from a movie. That's their unique curation. Even when they're citing other people's ideas, it's very clear that they have been living through a certain lens of their life, curating, taking these interesting nuggets. And ChatGPT doesn't do that. It's just kind of like brute force, you know, brute force basics we could call it.

As expected, it's a machine. So that's we're gonna get.

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You mentioned word of mouth and I know that one of the main ways, and it's 11:11 as I ask you this question. One of the main ways that you built your business was through building a referral engine. As my friend John Jantz wrote a book called the Referral Engine. And I've always been compelled by a referral based business because it seems to be so in flow and so much I wanna say easier, but there's something more magical about it than again like just the very hard driving marketing energy. So I'm just wondering if you can tell us, what do you think led to so many referrals for you and do you do anything in particular to coax even more referrals in your business?

I love referrals. Having relationships is helpful no matter what. Like business and life, like being able to find relationships and nurture them. And it's not like you're going out to necessarily seek them, but they're there. So when I first started my business, I got my start because I sent a personal email to just about everyone I knew. So I started with a template and I customized it for each person. And as I was getting started, I was still in my corporate job and I was Doing both. I did my writing business on the side because I couldn't just up and quit. And I emailed people and told them what I was looking for and what I was doing. It went something like, hey, I'm getting started in my writing business. I'm still at my corporate job, so please don't advertise this on social media yet, but if you know someone who's looking for copywriting, content, writing, writing, coaching, send them my way. And what that did was plant seeds. So it did turn into instant business in a couple cases where I probably started offering to do some writing for free to a handful of people. And that quickly turned into this is great, can I pay you now? Yes, please, you absolutely can. And that turned into a referral, which turned into another referral. So those emails I sent back in 2016, 2017 still result in business to this day. So they were like people who I'd worked with in past jobs, former neighbors, like, you just never know who might need you. And a lot of them circle back and even if they didn't need you right away right then. So the intention of the emails and letting people know you're looking for referrals isn't hire me right now, send me money, it's hey, this is what I'm doing. You're planting seeds. So also a great time to do that during a waxing moon, doing some of those things, or full moon when you're feeling magnetic. And I do a couple things to encourage referrals. Also, be sure to thank anyone who does pass her name along because you want to acknowledge that energy like, thank you, I appreciate this. If it makes sense. There are a handful of people who send me tons of work. Send them a gift, send them a written thank you note, a nice email, a voice memo, whatever that is. This to show them thank you, I appreciate this. And when it comes to referrals, people sometimes think that you might be busier than you are. For instance, people see that I post consistently on my blog and social media, they just assume I'm fully booked all the time, where I probably have some space to do some work with people. So if you let people know you're open to referrals, you're letting them know that you have the time. Also, when I am offboarding a client, I send what I call a see you soon kit. And in there I include all the things to wrap up our project. So here's a link to provide some feedback for me to my feedback form. Here are some options for continuing our momentum together so here's another way we could work together that you might not have thought of. And then here's a way to pass my name along. And I make it so easy for people to give me a referral. I write the email for them so they don't have to do a lot of work. So doing a referral should be easy. So I drafted for them based on what our project was. I signed their name and of course I encourage them. You know, feel free to tweak this however you like and send it along. Let people know. And it's been a great source of an influx of great new customers and clients because if you've already worked with someone who you love, chances are they know other great people too. So you want to work with those people.

Right. I love this idea of a see you soon kit and ritualizing and naming what happens when you close out with a client. That's such a beautiful expression because in John Jantz's book that inspired me many, many years ago, he says, like, you can create systems to generate referrals at every single stage of working with a client. But I've never heard somebody put it this way of a see you soon kit where you drop the emails for them. There is a feedback survey. You do all the things to actually create and name a process around that. I just love that. Thank you for sharing.

Yeah, thank you.

I'm going to do a podcast episode. I just had my high school math teacher who made such an impact in my life. Hi, Marianne, if you're listening. She and her husband came in for dinner and so we had a meal at Gramercy Tavern, which is a classic Danny Meyer restaurant in the Flatiron district or Gramercy area of New York. And as always, these fancy restaurants, they leave you with the takeaway at the end. The first time it happens, it's so delightful and surprising. And then you kind of get used to the fancier the restaurant. They'll leave you with granola for the morning breakfast, or in this case, it was a chocolate chip banana bread. They know your fault. They know you've just had a seven course tasting. They know you're not gonna eat it. Then it's truly for the next morning. But that kind of reminds me, it's like their own version of a see you tomorrow kit. So that in the morning with your coffee, you're having this delightful little banana bread and reflecting and remembering what a great meal and experience you had. And it kind of carries it into the next day. That reminds me with your see you Soon, Kit. It's not even see you later. It's see you soon as in come back anytime.

Yeah, exactly. I love that. And I really want some banana bread.

I know, right? So good. It was so good.

All right.

Well, this is so fun. Let me also say your writing really is so real and funny. I loved Unfussy Life. I highlighted so many parts of that book. And so I encourage people to read that. And I can't wait to read the synthesis of your intuitive writing learnings and experience. What haven't we talked about as it relates to intuitive writing or running an intuitive business that is on your heart to share?

The thing that came up for me when it came to embracing intuitive writing, when I first heard about it and the idea of like writing with the moon, know that I didn't take action right away. All I did for probably the first year was simply notice what was going on with my body with the moon, and just notice. So you could keep a dedicated journal to something like that. All I did was notice. Then my next step was to create a Google calendar that outlined my cycle just so I would know what was going on and I could schedule meetings accordingly. And I slowly did this over time. So to get to the point where I plan my business activities around it and all my writing took probably a good two to three years. Now, you could do it faster than that or even slower, but just know if it's the first time you've heard it and you're like, whoa, this is too much too out there. You don't have to jump all the way in. You can wait and see what works for you. Probably the best way to try intuitive writing in general, Set a timer. Don't look at your screen. So sometimes I tend to like look out the window and not look at what I'm typing. Write something that has you fired up right now or passionate or excited because that excitement comes through when you're writing. And sit down 20 minutes, write as fast as you can, and that's it. Put it away, don't look at it again till tomorrow. And after that 20 minutes, you will probably be surprised at how much you got out in that short amount of time.

I love that exercise for us to try and especially the piece around. Choose something that you're passionate about or that is bothering you right now. Because it's true. That's something that's alive. I have a recurring reminder on my phone. It actually says solo episode. What's most true this week? Something like that. Because I'm trying to get myself to tap into what's alive right now. What's a problem? Something I'm struggling with or something? Like you said, something I'm passionate about, something that's annoying to me. So I love how you're combining, taking that, setting a timer, 20 minutes, stream of consciousness. Write as fast as you can, not as well as you can.

Yeah, a hundred percent. And I love that you had the reminder about write something true. This is also another way to get past any kind of blocks at the page. This was something that we did in my crisis communication days, and the phrase was start with the truth and then edit. So just write something true. Write something honest. And by edit, I don't mean edit the truth out. You're going to edit later and refine the language. Just help it connect with your reader.

Start with something true, then edit. Was that the line?

Start with the truth and then edit.

Oh, so good. Start with the truth and then edit. Do you remember who said that?

It was probably one of my managers at the time. I worked at BlackBerry and we had to write formal communications when the service went down. So I'd have to take the technical speak, talking to the engineers, turn that into English, which was challenging. So I would start with the truth. Like this thing broke because of this. And it's like, well, we can't say that like that. So we have to say it like this. That's where that came from.

So good. And I love how you've mapped that from the business world, like hardcore business comms, over to what we're all doing. If you could leave fellow business owners with a permission slip, which you so generously have given us so many already, to do something differently or drop something altogether, what would it be?

Permission to write whatever is on your heart, whatever is coming up for you. Your story, that is yours and yours alone, and you have full permission to write it.

Beautiful. Thank you so much, Jack. Where can people find you if they want to keep in touch and hire you?

Thank you, Penny. They could find me attheintuitive writing school.com.

Awesome. Thank you so much. Can't wait to try all these homeworks. And big thanks to everybody who's here listening.

If you've listened this far, you get a gold star.

Thank you.

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