182: Collective Problem-Solving + Negotiating Fearlessly with Mori Taheripour

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For show notes from this episode, visit pivotmethod.com podcast if Change is the only constant, then let's get better at it. Here we go.

Hello everybody. I am thrilled to be here today with my guest, Mori Taharipur. She is an award winning educator and globally recognized executive with over 15 years of experience leading initiatives at the intersection of sports, social change and negotiations in public and private sectors. She serves on the faculty of the Legal Studies and Business Ethics department at the Wharton School of the University of Pennsylvania, teaching negotiation and dispute resolution, both undergrad and graduate levels. Today we're talking about her new book, Bring how to Harness the Power of Connection to Negotiate Fearlessly. Mori welcome to the show.

Jenny. Thank you for having me. Happy to be here.

You are someone whose book has come out in March in the midst of not just Corona madness, but the immense uncertainty throughout the month of March. I know you were booked at south by Southwest and you probably had so many events surrounding the launch of your book. I'm just curious to know what it's been like for you navigating that in this last month.

At first I have to say it was a little surreal. I was like, what is happening? And then I felt a little sorry for myself because I was like, really? After all this time of, you know, it's like giving birth to a baby kind of thing. So I happened to just launch it right in the midst of the worst week and worst month ever. But I did stay in that space for that long, to be honest, because I really started sort of thinking about my students that I've had and the craziness of the world. And I sort of started balancing this notion of being grateful for having had all the experiences and continuing to have the relationships that I have with my students and people that I've taught and the fact that I could still communicate with them and all was not lost. And they would become people I could reach out to through social media and all the rest of it and ask for help. But the other part of it was also we couldn't help. That was at the time when, before I stopped watching the news, I was watching the news constantly. And it was hard to think that my problems were even remotely significant. I started just thinking about all that was going on out there and I thought, okay, so we'll treat this as rehearsal. I'll relaunch it. Like there's who said this only has to happen now? And I just refused to give in to that feeling of like gloom because it was kind of just eating me up. And I was like, no, enough. I woke up one morning, I was like, done. I'm so done. This is going to be okay. And thankfully, I sort of pushed myself out of that mindset.

Well, it's so understandable to process all that. Even before we hit record, we were talking about how it's a day by day thing, and you mentioned the collective grief of everybody who's grieving the way things were, no matter what scale of change they've confronted. And for you, a book is such a long term project that at the last minute, you know, right as it's coming out, to have to adjust so much of what you thought that launch might look like is a challenge. And it's also interesting that the topic of your book is about human connection, empathy and negotiation and saying that negotiation is something we do all the time. And interestingly enough, everybody was thrown into the deep end of negotiation in this last month. Having to renegotiate contracts, jobs, employment, family space, how they live in their own home. I mean, it's kind of wild to think about. It's almost like the volume on negotiation got turned up to a 10. Although with varying levels of skill, I would imagine.

Yeah, and it's funny because I've always been one who thinks we negotiate all day, every day. So that's sort of the premise of the book too, is that we're actually better negotiators than we think we are because it's something we do all the time. So it doesn't have to be sort of some transaction. But the interesting thing is now we really see that it's something that we do all the time. To your point, whether it's family, whether it's, you know, your, your job, your employment, you're going after, unemployment, your landlords, you know, like all of this, like every aspect of our life needs some kind of intervention from a Negotiations, perspective. And so, yeah, if anything, we're using those skills far more today in a very tangible way than we were even sort of in the headspace of realizing. But I think we also negotiate more with ourselves. I mean, one of my students always ask me, like, Professor Tanapur, what's the hardest negotiations you've ever done? And I always. I know that they probably expect some, like, sexy answer, like, you know, Middle east peace crisis or something. And I'm like, you know, the ones I've had with myself, because they've been the most sort of emotional, emotionally taxing, or ones that were really complex. And I feel like we're even doing that more now because half the time, like I said over my book, I had to really sort of negotiate my way out of the helplessness or the hopelessness that I was feeling and give myself sort of this other story. But it is. It's everywhere, all the time. And we are certainly getting a lot of practice.

Maybe a lot of failed attempts as well, especially in family situations. But, you know, it's just over and over. We just have to persist because this is sort of, you know, at least for now, the new normal.

You talk about the inner doubter, and you're right, I didn't think of it that way. That we're every day, especially now, with so much change and uncertainty. I'm doing it, too. I woke up today feeling sad and angry again. And then I had the voice that said, come on, Jenny, you know better. Just, you got this. And then the other voice was like, f you, you know, no, I'm pissed off. Everything is changing and hard, and I'm sick of it being hard every day and getting harder and losing yet another contract and then another one after that. And I, similar to you, like, I had a breaking point, and then at other times, I hit a breakthrough point. And it's just. It's an evolving process. No matter how much I can know intellectually, spiritually, it doesn't matter. There is another part in me that's not even the inner doubter, but. But certainly the inner doubter the volumes up on that, too, because there's the inner doubt of, is this going to be okay? When are things going to come back online? How long will we need to stretch every last dollar? And by the way, for listeners, I had so many ahas reading Maury's book. Like, there are so many dog ears. I had so many aha moments. And I want to come back to something you said, which is one of the biggest negotiations is with ourself you say in the book, you can't be the person who diminishes your value. Others will do that too often for you. And that sometimes we can be our own worst enemy because the stories we tell. That's something I'd love to touch on, which is a lot of people listening, probably maybe even saw the title and said, negotiation. I don't even want to listen, or I'm not good at that, or I don't like conflict. And I, Jenny, can say I am a recovering people pleaser, and I find negotiations very stressful and very challenging. So how can we bolster people's confidence during this time, especially when they're not negotiating from what feels like a position of strength? You know, I would imagine so many people right now are negotiating from a place of survival, right?

There's so much. It's like, where do I begin? But let's talk about the whole premise of not really liking negotiation or sort of running away from it. And I think, again, you know, I talk a lot in the book about sort of the scars we have and, you know, the bad experiences you've had or feeling like you were taken advantage of in some way. And so those leave these sort of indelible memories in our mind. And yet, you know, I start every class by reminding students about how literally every day, whether it's bringing the dog in when it's raining outside and he's like, I'm not really ready. Like, that's the. That's the negotiations with your kids, with your parents. So so much more of our time is involved in those types of negotiations that we're, you know, we're probably pretty good at. And yet the bad memories sort of stick out in my mind, which quickly makes people think I'm not good at this or I don't really enjoy it. But in truth, it's just conversations. And above everything else, it's really sort of a mutual sort of commitment to problem solving, if you will. And I think that where we are today.

It'S obviously, you know, right out of the gate, you sort of have to acknowledge the fact. Unchartered territory, very difficult. But.

You and I talked about this sort of collective pain that we're experiencing. I think that at least from what I've heard from some people, that even if they call a landlord or a bank, even if the issue isn't immediately resolved, there seems to be a lot more room for this Runway of problem solving, I think, because we're all in it. So for a bank to be like, oh, no, you have to pay on time. It's kind of silly because it's not possible. The world is going through this and governments are responding, companies are closing down. You're almost powerless. And this is not something that you brought on yourself voluntarily from bad decision making, per se. So I think we're all sort of. This is, if anything, the right time or the perfect time for these conversations, because instead of being committed to the. And I hate this word, by the way, but like winning the negotiation, just you yourself coming out in a more powerful place, there's sort of this collective commitment to problem solving because we just have to get out of this together. Otherwise if somebody goes bankrupt, they can't pay you back in six months. If somebody becomes homeless, you know, they're foreclosed on their house, you know, what are you going to do then? That causes a whole other string of problems. So I do think this is sort of the perfect storm. I think there's a lot of opportunity in it, and I think that we have to be more innovative in the way we think about it. We have to sort of step back and think what's really important right now.

And maybe it's not the perfect solution, but that is this. Just let's kind of work through this and maybe we keep coming back. This is one of those odd times where you may come back to that same negotiation over and over again, because everything's changing week by week sometime day by day. So you could say things like, let's do this for now, but let's leave room to revisit this in two months. And we don't usually have those kinds of. So that the flexibility in those conversations that I think the sit beckons for now.

It's so beautifully said, the collective commitment to problem solving. And I love. I was cheering when I read that line in your book of why you hate the word winning. Because I am such a big stickler for language as well. And even now I was reading an interesting Think piece around calling this a war. And we're fighting. And it's like making even this virus, this language of war, fighting enemy. I don't know, there's something that gets. I don't like about it. I know that's weird to say. Of course I want the virus gone, but especially in terms of negotiation. Can you explain a little bit more about what you don't like about the word winning and how you reframe it?

Because I think we've defined it from a place of power over someone else or, you know, a sort of this inability to say, let's both do well, or, you know, you came to a resolution. And it was this notion of a win win, which we can talk about in a minute, but it's always been defined as somebody basically overpowering somebody else, or, you know, somebody gets the win. You know, I watch a lot of sports. I work in sports. Somebody gets the win, the other person naturally gets the loss. And I don't use it in class, so I don't like it when students use it in class. Because.

In negotiation, you can technically, from just a purely quantitative perspective, you can win a negotiation by any measure. However, you could also walk away and think, I don't even know who I was in that conversation. Why did I treat that person so badly? Did I really need to say that? Or, oh, my God, I think I lied because I was so focused on just getting this deal.

You find that maybe you've been stripped of your integrity or your values or you misplaced this. This sort of. This notion of what was really important.

And I think. So in. In that case, did you really win, or was it just this momentary sort of victory that in the long run could be truly damaging? So, and then. And then it's like winning for who? Some people want to leave something on the table. You know, famous sports agent Bob Wolfe used to all say, you know, and for me, I always want to leave something on the table. And he was one of the most celebrated sports agents we've ever had. But his thing was, is it really worth sort of squeezing the last bit of juice out of every orange? And usually no. So I think we just need to relook at the word winning. It also has a lot of masculine qualities that's usually associated with it.

And typically those don't include things like, you know, you won because you were. You had empathy and that you made the other person feel so good about themselves that they felt really, as a result, good about this deal and perhaps the relationship. So I just think that it just. What, what we hear, when we hear winning is. Is just obtuse. It doesn't. It doesn't really. It doesn't make sense to me because you can't really define it, you know?

Right. I so am with you and, and to step on. I love your focus on values and integrity, preserving those things. And you even give an example of a student that where someone didn't think they, quote, did well in the negotiation, but they maintain their integrity. And then you had others that came away on paper seeming to get the most money, but they. They Gave a little white lie or something that how are you going to feel about yourself when you get through this? And I just think it's so powerful how you, how you talk about that and the emphasis on the long term and the relationship and trusting the process. And that's a great line too from Bob Wolf. Do we need to squeeze every drop out of every orange? You also gave the example of your student Esther, or I don't know if maybe Estes, you'll pronounce it for me, but she said, great, we have a good deal. Now can we make it better? That's how she closes a negotiation. I mean, that's so epic.

So I don't want to credit Bob Wolf with that line. I think I was just sort of thinking about like when you read his work, you're like, that's really what he's saying is do you really need to crush the, your counterpart to consider this a good deal? And he was often like, no, that's actually, you know, if you're going to have, you're going to talk to this general manager again, why would you want to make them feel bad? Like that's you're making just harder for yourself the next time around and then the next time after that. So, and I'll, I'll send you the article that actually, no matter how much time goes by, I still use the same article to start the class every year because people usually don't associate that type of thinking with sports agents. But it's an important read.

I would love to, I'll put that in the show notes. That'll be great.

Yeah. Esther was just such an incredible student. But her story is one of this notion of when you treat people well, when they enjoy this process and enjoy is loosely, I use that very loosely. But when they don't walk away feeling like this was all at war, or they feel poorly about the way they, the outcome that they got from the negotiation, but they feel good about the whole process, then that person is likely to be open to coming back to the table and saying, yeah, let's revisit this maybe in six months. There's actually something better that we can do. If they.

Appreciate how you've treated them, if they don't like that experience, then why would they ever want to even have a conversation with you again? So the long term benefit of treating people well is tremendous, you know, and it's sort of the well that you could keep going back to, whereas if they don't want to see you again, they're like, here Take this, win, I never want to talk to you again. Then that's it. That's about as much value as you can extract from that conversation.

This seems like somewhat of a dance or fine line to me. And I'll ask a selfish question now which is that I often try to preserve these relationships so much, try to be accommodating, collaborative, friendly that it's more often the case that I feel disappointed, let's say at the end of a process. I'm very happy with my integrity, my collaboration. I'm like overjoyed. I've done all those things, but almost too well.

And I love the example that you give of even NFL players. You know, this pleaser mentality. Sometimes we assign it to women, but it's not just women that you give the example of NFL players getting requests from their extended friends and family and they might fear saying no or being quote difficult in a negotiation out of perception of being greedy, ungrateful.

And in my case with business contracts, I want to create the relationship but this really is a sticking point. So I'd love to hear your take on it.

This is that people pleaser piece. I mean the notion of if you take care of yourself, you're somehow rejecting others needs. And I just don't think that's true. I think those things can be mutually inclusive and it's sort of like the oxygen mask on an airplane. You sort of take care of yourself before you can take care of other people. And I think that's really important. I think we have to. Man, woman. People who are highly accommodating are oftentimes looking out before they look in. Even when they're preparing for a negotiation, they don't start from a sense of self first. Like what do I want? What's important to me? It's more about what are they going to want, how am I going to make them happy. And, and if you could just. I mean this sounds easy, but if you could just reverse that order and take care of yourself first and allow yourself, give yourself permission to do so and not feel like you're being greedy. But this is like about self care then I think that it's almost that easy. It's really. You would be amazed how much of a change you can make because. Because if you start from the other place, then you're constantly thinking about what do I do to please the other person? There's nothing involved in that that says what does Jenny want?

What's going to bring me inherent satisfaction and happiness? And you're leaving that to the end. And that's just too important to be rushed or forgotten. We feel like, you know, letting people down. How about letting yourself down? Like, where is that sense of not wanting to feel regret for, for not having taken care of yourself? You know, like if you don't take care of yourself, who will? And it's absolutely true. Those are sort of the, the rules of engagement in negotiations. You take care of yourself first and then others without feeling badly about it.

I love that flip in perspective. And starting with the self care piece, I will say for me, I start strong. I might start with self care in mind and then as the negotiation progresses and the other side might draw a harder line and it goes below my ideal, that's where it gets really muddy for me. So even if I start strong, and I'm wondering too right now, especially during a crisis and potential recession, if not depression.

How.

How do people not give too much when they think again, like small businesses coming from a place of survival where they money, let's say it was a contract that involves money in this case.

And comparing that to the hiring organization, who doesn't need them. And you gave some examples in the book, I was so grateful for those where the bigger companies, they don't need you. But you, the small business, this might be the make or break moment.

Yeah, I think that I do use examples of like sort of, you know, when we've been in bad economies, like, you know, nothing like this that we've experienced sort of collectively. But I think it all starts with, yes, there's self care, but also understanding your own value and sort of sitting in that. Right. And really believing in it. Not. This can't just be, you know, nice speech that you give yourself. You know, especially for people who sort of struggle with a sense of imposter syndrome and questioning your own value, this is even more crucial because you have to start there. You have to make sure that you are committed to the better goal. Right. The more aspirational goals, the more aspirational outcomes. And negotiations is very. It's like a straight line, you know, you, I always say you expect more, you tend to get more. That's just. Studies show this. Right. So. So there's that if you so quickly let go of your goal, as soon as somebody starts talking or they are pushing back too much, then that kind of means you weren't really that committed to it in the first place, that there was some doubt in your mind about whether you were worth that in the first place. So you can't waiver that quickly. Now do you are these times, you know, I said earlier, like, this is when we all need to be more flexible. Sure. But there's also something about making this distinction between, by the way, these are just difficult times. So I'm willing to have some flexibility around this. But do understand that this is sort of a special moment so that you come back to it the next time around. They're not expecting this type of pricing from you. Right. You've already told them this is for a moment in time and that's it. And I think that, that people then are okay with prices going up because you just told them like, this is like, you know, I talk about my gym when we had, you know, the economy was really bad, they used to have run this massage special forever. 80 minutes for 54 for the price of 50 minutes. And Jenny, I can tell you it was probably like four years, I swear to God, when the economy was bad. Then all of a sudden, out of nowhere, things got better. I haven't seen that 80 minutes for 50 minute price tag forever. And yet we weren't disappointed because for all that time they kept saying monthly special.

I love that example so much. I definitely noted that one in the book too. It's so good. There's another element of all this that stood out to me. And you do a lot of traveling and teaching all around the world. And you're Iranian. That's where your parents are from. And were you born in Iran or were you born.

I was in the States.

Okay. So my husband is Lebanese and growing up in the US I didn't realize how much we prioritize efficiency and so speed in terms of deals, negotiations, contracts. It's almost like the quicker you get the client or they reach out to you and you sign the deal, the better. And then you highlighted this. And I didn't realize this only until spending more time in the Middle east, which is it's all about relationships. It's a long, slow courtship. And for me, being a more introverted person at first, when I didn't realize that's what was going on, I was like more frustrated that I don't want to go to all these dinners, I don't want to do all this long term courtship, you know. And so I'd love if you could speak to the cultural differences around forming relationships and how people who love that aspect can thrive. But also those who might think, like, for me in the States, I would never go to five dinners to land a client. It's just like not how I operate. But in other Cultures that really might be required or they don't trust you. There's no trust there.

Right. I think there's something so beautiful about it. I, too, am an introvert, like we had discussed, but.

I, as an introvert, hate, like, the very superficial cocktail party conversation. Me too. Welcome. Yeah, I mean, like, I just want to go in a corner totally. But I mean, and you and I do have this in common, but we also have something else in common, which is sort of that, like having empathy for people. Right. And this deep sense of understanding and wanting to walk in somebody else's shoes. And I think that if you start thinking about it from that perspective and think, you know, I'm actually honoring the person that I really am, like, this is my chance to not have superficial conversations, but really have meaningful conversations. That this is an opportunity for you to sort of evolve this one potential deal into something deeper and, and also better understand my counterpart. And so I think that there's something really.

Again, beautiful and meaningful about the way they do this in Asia, they do this in the Middle East. It's so many parts of the world where, where it's the relationship first and then maybe a negotiation, because if that doesn't. The first part doesn't work, the second part won't. And efficiency has driven us to, in this country to minimize the importance of, of, you know, these, these relationships that could again, bring you more benefit in the long run. Right. Bring you in perpetuity. You could be, you know, reaping the rewards of this, this relationship. And efficiency has made us want to just skip to the transaction and, and all that is really difficult because talking about always, it's always difficult. There's. It's just no gray, no shades of gray, black and white, up, down. That's it. Whereas the, the. The part before that where you are building and this relationship and coloring all the different aspects of it as you learn more about somebody. That is the part that I think introverts actually, and, and people who are. Are highly empathetic, very emotionally intelligent. I think if you sort of see it from that perspective, I think it's actually the very best part. Like, that's where the magic happens. And I think that's the very best part of any negotiation. And you're speaking to your strengths.

I really love your perspective and hearing it from you now, even hearing you with so much experience in business and these types of conversations saying talking about money is always hard. There's just something comforting about hearing you say it. And the introvert advantages were great to hear in the book, and even now as well, because I think so often the word negotiation is associated with a more outgoing, charismatic, salesy type, and it just doesn't. And that. You're right. And you highlight this so well in the book that those more introspective, deep conversation meaning, empathy, emotional intelligence, how valuable those are. And. And actually, as you just said, that's. That's the magic right there.

Yep. That's your superpower, Jenny.

You should use it well. Thank you. I know there's so much that now I need to put in practice. You're still teaching. You're guiding your class at Wharton, if not more than one class, through a crazy time where none of us can predict the future. And I would imagine they're looking to you for some amount of guidance and even you can't really know what's going on. So I'm curious, how are you guiding your students during this time and what's your form of leadership through this crisis?

So the first day of class, I decided that I couldn't do business as usual. We usually do negotiation exercises and all the rest of it. And the first day of class, I said, people just need to be seen right now. They need to feel like they're not the only ones going through this. And so we. I did this kind of listening exercise where I told them to sort of go off and, you know, find their partner that I had paired them up with and just have, you know, five minutes. Each person would take five minutes to just talk about something that was bothering them, about something they were excited about, whatever was meaningful to them at that moment, and then the other person couldn't interrupt them. They couldn't, you know, sort of react. They couldn't judge. They just had to listen. And then, you know, they would turn around and change places. And it worked. You know, you can never know in this medium what's going to take and what's not going to take. So it's all somewhat risky, but it worked so well for them because they just wanted connection. They just wanted to feel like, you know, while the world has sort of changed, that they still had. They were deeply sort of intertwined with people that they had seen every day for, you know, years. And it almost felt like going home in a way. Right. Like it was comfortable. And in that comfort, they were vulnerable and they were open. And there was something really safe about those three hours. And by the way, I don't expect anything of them that I can't do myself. So I was super vulnerable that day. I was it was the day that my book got launched. So it was March 24, was my first day of class and I had put aside my book that morning. I said, I'm not even going to look at it or think about it and I'm just going to commit to these, you know, 46 students of mine. And it was, it was, you know, just what I needed because my heart felt so full, my soul felt so grateful for these three hours of being all in this place of sadness and grief to some extent, but just excitement to reconnect and also completely afraid because we had no idea what was going to happen the next day or the day after that and what have you. So I think that.

As teachers, as people, maybe even leaders and companies, there's so much value in admitting that you don't know either that there's this sense of honesty and transparency that's required of us because I think people appreciate that. And then also committing to this notion of. And we're going to get through this. I don't know how, I don't know why, but let's just start with sort of reconnecting first and, and then we go, then we go. We're going to go there together. And it was amazing. I have to say I cried for like three hours after that class because I was like, this was exactly what I needed. And I think it was exactly what they needed and it was amazing.

What a gift. What a gift to create that space and hold that space for them. And it just speaks to all the skills that you've cultivated and that you talk about, which is being in the moment really and tuning in. And you said, you know, one thing you're missing with the in person is just tuning in to their faces and what they need right now. So the fact that you were able to do that and I'm with you 100%, I think even the trainings I have done virtually I'm giving a lot more time for check ins and the community that I lead, it's like we don't have the answers, but we're in this together. And there's something comforting about even just that.

Right, right. No, it's true. And galvanizing that kind of energy to do something together, it's so much easier than feeling like you're alone and, you know, helpless. It's really pretty amazing what that collective can do.

Yes. I was just thinking that it's almost like this cannot be solved.

Right.

As a one off it. It requires collective intelligence.

Yeah, it does. It really does.

Maury, thank you so much for being here, for sharing your work. I'm so excited for this book. I think it will have a long life even beyond this launch that has been shifted. I know that it will. Can you let listeners know where they can find you if they want to learn more and keep in touch?

Yep. So my website, so moitaharryport.com and the book itself is on like every, you know, outlet, so Amazon and everything else basically at this point, so easy to find them all over social media. But before I go, I just want to say to you that, you know, you just said that I have a lot, you know, this has a long shelf life. You too, as sort of the, the person who's been talking about this notion of shifting and pivoting and you know, that being so much a part of our everyday. I think you should sit in your power and, and understand that you started these conversations well before we were even ready for them. So. So, you know, I'm excited for people to reconnect with that for you as well. So I wish you nothing but the best.

Thank you so much. That makes me want to cry. Thank you. It's an emotional time. I really appreciate you saying that and hearing it from you really means a lot.

Thank you, Jenny.

Thank you so much. And everybody. The book is called Bring Yourself how to Harness the Power of Connection to Negotiate Fearlessly. Maury, you're amazing. Thank you so much and thanks everybody.

Take good care.

Thanks so much for listening to this episode of the Pivot podcast. Make sure you don't miss an episode or my insider tips and templates by signing up for Pivot List, a curated twice monthly newsletter where I share the inside scoop on what I'm reading, watching, listening to and the latest tools I'm geeking out on. Sign up@pivotmethod.com pivotlist get show notes from this episode@pivotmethod.com podcast and connect with me on Twitter at ennyblake.

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