188: The Pondering Method (for Rebels) with Michael Karsouny

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What's next? This is a question we're all having to ask and answer more frequently. I'm Jenny Blake, your host of the Pivot Podcast and author of Pivot. The only move that matters is your next one.

For show notes from this episode, visit pivotmethod.com podcast if Change is the only constant, then let's get better at it. Here we go.

Hello friends. We have a very special guest returning to the Pivot Podcast today, but before we do that, I wanted to give a little extra context. You'll see the title of this episode is the Pondering Method for Rebels. What is a rebel, you ask? This comes from Gretchen Rubin's the Four Tendencies Book and and Framework. The subtitle of the book is the Indispensable personality profiles that reveal how to make your life better and other people's lives better too. She created the Four Tendencies quiz and nearly 3 million people have taken this quiz. Can you even imagine, she says, that the intro to the quiz and I encourage you to take this if you haven't already. It's at quiz.gretchenrubin.com the intro says by asking the one simple question, how do I respond to expectations? We gain exciting insight into ourselves, and when we know how other people respond to expectations, we understand them far more effectively as well. We all face two kinds of outer expectations, such as meet work deadlines, answer a request from a friend, and inner expectations like like keep a New Year's resolution, Start meditating. Our response to expectations determines our tendency, that is whether we fit into the category of upholder, questioner, obliger, or rebel. She then talks about how taking this quiz helps you make better decisions, meet deadlines, meet promises to yourself, suffer less stress, and engage more deeply with others. And also understand the other people in your life and not get frustrated with them, because these tendencies are quite different and they're kind of funny to understand what they are when you really take the quiz and start to wrap your mind around it. And it can be also a nice shortcut when you're talking to people just the same way that Many people use their Myers Briggs profile or their true colors color or their astrology Sun, Moon and rising.

A little more on each of the four tendencies. The first one is Upholder. Their tagline is discipline is my freedom. These are people who are pretty self sufficient, self motivated. They set goals, they follow them. They kind of in a way, keep to their own tasks that they set out for themselves. I would say I'm a combo of upholder and the next one, which is questioner. Their tagline is I'll comply if you convince me why this is something that I have too. For better or for worse, questioners are willing to go along, but they're going to ask a lot of questions from first. They're often naturally skeptical. And they're not just going to do something simply because you told them. They are going to investigate, listen to the rationale, and then make their own decision. So they're a little more, I would say, independent thinking and want to be convinced before they take action. The third tendency is obliger. Their mantra is, you can count on me and I'm counting on you to count on me. Obligers often do best with a coach, a friend, and accountability buddy. They are sometimes called pleasers because they almost adhere more to what other people ask of them or the commitments that they make to others than the commitments they make to themselves. So sometimes obligers have trouble upholding their own goals, but if they commit to someone else, there's no wavering from it. So obligers do really well when they have someone to be accountable to. Then the fourth category, who this episode will particularly resonate with, is the rebel. The rebel's mantra is, you can't make me and neither can I. So that's I love this one because I married one. And the rebel won't even listen to themselves. That's what's funny about the rebel, that as soon as a rule is set, as soon as there's a plan, all they want to do is break it. So you can imagine that it's tricky for rebels to set goals or plans or schedules or routines or systems and follow them because the very nature of someone telling them what to do, even themselves, makes them want to rebel and do something different. But of course, these are the most creative thinkers of our society because they just simply go the opposite way from everybody else a lot of the time. Again, if you haven't taken this quiz yet, go to quiz.gretchenrubin.com and I think you'll find it pretty illuminating. The subject of today's Conversation isn't necessarily pandemic related, but you might find it helpful to notice which of the four tendencies you most relate to and then use that to think about what kind of support you would most want during this time. If you're an upholder, you might want to create a project for yourself with maybe a one month deadline and you tick away at it every single day. If you're a questioner, maybe you're taking some time to pause and question things that you had previously assumed as true or the must haves of your way of life and working. If you're an obliger, maybe you're feeling a little adrift or confused or overwhelmed. Can you partner up with an accountability buddy to send each other a daily or weekly accountability check in of what you're most excited to tackle and then being able to report success once you do. And if you're a rebel, I know you're being asked to follow a lot more rules right now than you might otherwise want to. Things like social distancing, washing your hands. But even beyond that, you have an opportunity to ask what am I rebelling against? And is that serving me? And really figuring out how can you channel that rebellious creative energy towards something that moves you forward and improves your life and transforms you during this time? And then where are you rebelling? Where it's not serving you, Maybe dropping routines that really energize you and fulfill you with that context. I'm so excited to jump in to this podcast short with our very special guest. Here we go.

I am very excited to be here today with my beloved, my husband, Michael Carsoni for a podcast short. I've asked Michael to come on to talk about his latest innovation, the Pondering method. Michael, tell us a little bit about that.

For those of you who first of all consider procrastination as a blessing, not a curse, there's a way to hack it even more. And instead of just sitting in that liminal space where you know your mind just ghost places, or where you might encounter either anxiety, like, you know, latent anxiety, or where you feel that you have to channel this dormant frustration into action, or you know, cleaning the fridge or whatever activity you do to just postpone the incoming doom of working on something that you want to work on, the Pondering method is, I think, pretty effective in gathering all of that energy that that is there and giving it structure without frightening yourself. Because I mean, God knows I'm terrified of structure, but I crave it at the same time.

That's why you married me.

That's true. That's true. You know, I am as. As taken by Jenny as I am terrified of her. And I guess this is how. This is why I love her so much. You know, there's the mystery of what goes on in her mind, but at the same time, there's this elation when I see her create and manifest her systems around love. So I digress. Going back to what I was saying about the pondering method. It's just a question of sitting and allowing yourself to. To think and trace your thoughts and answer your questions. And as you do that, document what is going on in your mind by whatever means is at your disposal at that time, and whatever you feel inclined to do so, or whatever method you. You feel inclined to use at that moment in time. So it's not a question of preparing the space for documentation, because that would be counterproductive for procrastination, because you can't organize procrastination. So if you so happen to feel inclined to write your answers, great. If you want to sketch them out, draw them, do visual research, whatever it is, do. So the point is, at the end of it, you're going to have a collection of thoughts, sometimes linear, sometimes not. That will give you an idea of what's going on inside of you. And that is the pondering method. Sometimes it gets you to solve problems, Sometimes it gets you to flush out extra thoughts or ideas that you might not want to use, but at least you get it out of there and you move forward.

One thing that seems important to note about the pondering method is that it might look like you're not doing anything right.

It has to.

It has to. Okay, so if you're sitting there looking into space or looking into the distance, or even feeling bad that you're not producing, in your case, let's say creating art or painting, the pondering method seems a counter to that. And one thing you didn't mention in the list of ways it could express itself that I'm curious about is you even brought up the notion of exercise. How does exercise coincide with the pondering method?

So since I was talking about the many media through which you can document your pondering, you can ponder on your body and what it needs. So let's say you really don't want to work out, right? Like, you hate yourself. And although your body wants to move, there's something in you that's just not gonna let it somehow. So what you can do is, just as Jenny would like to do, talk to it and. And ponder on what your body wants to do. So then you start a dialogue with your body and slowly but surely find out that, oh, your chest wants to express itself today. So you ask it, you know, you ponder on what that might look like and slowly but surely you'll get the answer through movement through, I don't know, push ups or. Yesterday I worked my chest sitting on the couch by wrapping the bands around the couch and doing and doing bench, like seating, bench presses, inclined bench presses, flies. And I had a great workout all by pondering what I should do. And actually I made a great list of 20 to 30 movies that we are eventually gonna watch. And stacked, as Tim Ferriss would say, my actions so that we don't waste time in, you know, sitting, sifting all these streaming apps trying to find what movie are we gonna watch next? Jenny? I don't know. What about this one? What about that one? And then just waste hours and hours on end.

We end up watching thumbnails scroll by and all the false starts. It's like the streaming malaise. It feels like there's everything available and nothing's on. I would consider you a rebel in Gretchen Rubin's personality types framework. There's four. There's the upholder, the questioner, the obliger and the Rebel. I'd say you're a mix. Well, you really have a lot of all qualities, Obliger in the sense that you sometimes do like to be accountable to another person, but a rebel for sure. So what happens when your inner rebel says, no, I don't even want to do the pondering method. I'm rebelling even against that.

Well, I would never decide to do the pondering method because as soon as you do, you're giving yourself a goal. And as soon as you do that, there's no way I'm going to do it anyways.

There's that rebel.

So if I happen to find myself pondering, I would go with the flow and see where it takes me. And if it stops, it stops. I can't have any expectations around that process because as soon as I do, there's a system that pops up and there's no way that I could do that to myself. I would be shooting myself in the foot.

Isn't it hilarious that systems bring me deep comfort and joy and ease? I live for the system. Yesterday somebody said they saw what I do with text expander. They're like the level of systems thinking in your brain is ridiculous. You know, and then for you, you're allergic. As soon as there's a system or A plan. It's gone. You're gone.

I like to feel my way through a system. You know, I'm very big on routines.

That's true.

You know that.

That's true.

So it's less about, actually. Systems are very important to me, but it's a question of creating the system to ingrain it as a habit so that I don't have to think about it. And as long as it doesn't get to my consciousness, I'm happy because I'm just doing it without Will. I don't want Will to. To. To come into play. And I don't think we have Will, actually. But that's a completely different talk. We'll talk about it later.

Oh, good.

Way to lead into this one.

There is no such thing as Will. But that's me. That's just my point.

Is that part of your Jungian analysis?

Absolutely.

Okay.

Absolutely.

Wow. Stay tuned, listeners.

I look forward to the episode on There is no Will. Michael, would you like to leave listeners with any parting words of comfort, wisdom, or an experiment as we close this Pivot podcast? Short.

You know, I haven't meditated in a very long time, and today is day two of picking up meditation again. And I must say, it's.

Meditation is amazing. I always forget how great it makes me feel and how present it makes me feel and how important it is to be present. I mean, I'm very happy to have this recorded so that when I forget, I can. You can remind me of it, Jenny, or something, but pick it up again. Really. Even if you think that you're, you know, you're present, it's. You're just. Just listening to the gibberish that's coming out of your mind. And, you know, although it might help with your pondering method, sometimes it's way better to just be present. So I'm starting this experiment again. Gonna meditate twice a day. I'm building it up now. It's just. I can't meditate more than 30 minutes a day now, like on day two. And I'm gonna build it up slowly but surely, but I definitely know that I'm craving it. So let us know what happens with you if you end up picking it up.

What a perfect paradoxical pairing for us to end on. Oh, yeah. Meditation combined with the pondering method, which is pretty much antithetical to meditation, in a sense. It's perfect. That's good. That's what we're all about here, is balancing all sides of an equation. Michael, my love, thank you for being here.

On the Pivot Podcast I must say I'm very proud of Jenny for the podcast that that she's that she's doing daily now. And fingers crossed. I mean no expectations but. But way to go Jenny.

Thank you honey. I'm I guess I'm pondering out loud.

Happy to be here too.

Thank you. Thanks for listening everybody. Send in your feedback if you have it. Would love to hear what you think.

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Remember, build first, then your courage will follow. Hasn't it always.