195: Our Moment of Oneness—United Religions Initiative with Bishop William Swing

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For show notes from this episode, visit pivotmethod.com podcast. If change is the only constant, then let's get better at it. Here we go.

Hello everybody. Welcome back. I am so excited to be having this conversation today with Bishop William Swing. It is one of my favorite recent serendipity stories, which is that Bill and my brother were both 20 minutes early waiting for a store to open in San Francisco. My brother was reading a book and I don't know, Bill, you'll have to tell me. But they started chatting, talking about business and books, and next thing I know, I get a text from my brother saying, you have to meet this guy, Bill Swing. And he sent a photo of the business card that Bill is the founder of United Religions Initiative. They're actually coming up on their 20th anniversary as an organization. And my brother knew that I had been in seminary school at Union Theological Seminary before going on leave. And equally, I'm so passionate about the work that Bill does in the world. He's on a mission to build bridges between people and religions, helping people of what seem to be competing religious loyalties discover each other and work together. So without further ado, Bill, welcome to the show.

Well, thank you very much. It's a long way from the sports store to this show today.

To the podcast.

Yeah, the podcast.

I know. And across the country. And listeners, just so you know, this is the first time that Bill I are speaking. Actually we just decided when I wrote to him from getting this random business card texted to me, I said, you know, how about we just have this conversation and record it for the podcast? Would you be open to that? And he said yes. So here we are.

Good.

Now you might hear there is jackhammering happening right outside my window. So listeners, I apologize in advance if you hear extra background noise sometimes. That's just how it goes. Bill and I have had this on the calendar for probably two months now, certainly pre pandemic. And I always hate to reschedule guests with 5 minutes notice just because someone else out there in the world is jackhammering. So I'm just taking it as some kind of signal or metaphor for this day. I don't know. But Bill, I want to start by asking, what has life and work and for URI's United Religions Initiative, in short, what has it been like for you this last month and a half since the pandemic really hit the States and particularly California, which started sheltering quite early?

Yeah.

We'Re a diffuse organization.

We're not a top down. We're a matter of people have, we have a value system. And then people all over the world can take the value system and self organize around anything they want in any region. So in Pakistan you might have one kind of work going on, in Africa you'd have another, etc. So.

We'Ve been sitting at headquarters in San Francisco being avalanched by.

Stories about people feeding people, educating people.

Seeking out the elderly, people.

Running errands.

Doing anything possible to be of help in their neighborhood, in their country, in their city, in their neighborhood.

And so when you have something, we're in 108 countries and we have a million people. And so when you're sitting at headquarters and a pandemic hits, it's not like you send out and say, oh no, don't forget to do blank, blank. You're sitting there waiting for people to figure it out and come to you and say, this is what we did. And at first there was a little trickle of stories coming in and then all of a sudden the avalanche came and we have more stories than we could possibly keep track of right now, although we try hard to do that. We have a little.

Website.

Www.Uri.Org and if you look at that, it'll have a coronavirus and uri. And if you follow that, then you have all these various categories of people around the world who Jews and Muslim and Hindus and Jains and Sikhs and everybody in their own neighborhood coming together to figure out what can we do now to help our neighbors in the middle of this pandemic.

So if anybody out there wants to see this, it's pretty simple to follow. And it's uri, like upper respiratory infection.

That's a funny analogy.

Universal Rhode island, it's United Religions Initiative. So as long as you get the uri, you can follow us pretty easily.

It's incredible to hear about the size of the organization in over 108 countries and over a million people. Tell me a little bit about what that means. So those million people who are part of uri, what is it that they're doing? And I also love the kind of grassroots contribution that you've shared, which is it's not a top down organization. You're really listening and facilitating globally.

Yeah. Jenny, let me go. Way back.

In the late 90s when I was trying to bring this together.

I invited people from all over the world, really great people of grassroots experience, to come to Stanford for three years in a row in summer 97, 98, 99. And we became a global community together. But we couldn't figure out our charter. What kind of words, what kind of concepts would you have? What kind of organizational design do you have to have to create this thing and to hold it together in the long run? So we couldn't figure out how to do that. So I went out and I hired the guy who invented the Visa card. His name is Dee Hawk. And I said, dee, what you did with banking could I do with religion? And he said, yeah, but you'll have to sit in a room with me for three years and we'll figure out how this thing's going to work. And it's got to be biomimicry. It's not the industrial revolution, top down. It's how does nature, in a pond or.

In a natural setting, what's nature doing to hold itself together and to self organize and have a living breathing system? So we took everything that we thought nature was telling us and we built it into an organizational design.

So we took that organizational design and we said to any, as long as you got at least seven people from three different traditions, you can become a cooperation circle and you can self organize around any issue you want. You might clean up a river, you might plant trees, you might start an interfaith blood bank, you might work on nuclear disarmament. Anything you want, as long as you abide by the purpose and principles of uri, you'll be okay. So we just sort of let nature take over.

De Hawk would say, bill, when you go to bed at night, you won't do a thing but sleep for eight hours. But the next morning you'll wake up and you'll find that URI has grown.

Not because somebody at headquarters says we've got to have five new cooperation circles this month. It's because if you, if you, if you mirror the way nature works, it'll grow itself. So you wake up the next morning and you have new Cooperation circles. And instead of pushing this thing, you'll be running after this thing once it gets going. And that's exactly what happened. So when you say, I can't exactly remember your question, but it's like, what's going on out there? What's going on is anything they want it to be. They can self organize around anything they want.

This is so incredible. And I'm with you. I love studying principles of biomimicry and how that informs organizations, whether it's beehives or ant colonies or bird formations. There's so much we can learn from nature and, and the divine intelligence of that. It's also just so incredible to hear how these cooperation circles, interfaith cooperation circles are set up. I love this concept of at least seven people from three traditions and they self organize around any issue. On the website it says that there's 420 or over 420. Is that still the current count?

Cooperation circles? No, there are 10.

I had a feeling. I had a feeling that it would have ballooned already. There it is. The exponential growth.

Yeah, exactly.

Goodness.

Wow. I know. And then each. I can't wait to go to sleep at night because I wake up.

What a cool way to build a business or an organization and a response to any huge issue like this. It's just that you go to bed and it grows. How beautiful is that?

Jenny, let me tell you one other thing. Thing. Just way early when we were meeting in 1996 with about 55 people at the Fairmont Hotel to see are we going to go with this? Or we're going. It's all or nothing at all at this point. So we said, okay, let's go for it. And we said, but let's don't make it just religions. Let's make it people of religions instead of leaders of religions. And let's don't make it just people, really. Let's make it people of indigenous traditions. Because a lot of the tribal spirituality was around before there were religions. And then we said, well, if you're going to open the door, open it all the way. Let's make it for people who say, I'm spiritual but not religious.

I belong to an ethical society, or I'm a humanist of some sort. So we said, okay, when we say three traditions, it might be a humanistic tradition, might be an indigenous tradition, and it might be a religious tradition. So there are infinite possibilities of people getting together to form a cooperation circle, to.

Take something that's missing in the community and make it better.

I love how Inclusive it is, and expansive. When I was at Union, I was really interested in studying this growing movement of spirituality, not religious. And I love that you're bringing in humanism, animism, all the isms, you know, people have orienting spirituality that doesn't always fall under organized religion. And I'm with you. I feel like it's so important that they have a seat at these tables too. And then what a beautiful range. And I feel that that really lives the message of bridge building, because you're not just bridge building across religious organizations, but spirit to spirit or soul to soul. You know, it's. It's what's so much deeper than even the structures that us and our humanity got up layers on top.

Yeah, it's when you step back, it's so artificial to say only the Roman Catholics and the Jews or only the Sikhs and the Hindus. Come on.

One of the things about the coronavirus, which is just terrible, tragic, but at the same time, the coronavirus has made of one community all over the world.

If you are in Africa or in Canada.

Everybody is together.

And whether you're hunkered down in your house or apartment, or you're in a front line, in a nursing home, or in a emergency ward.

Everybody is looking out not only for themselves, but they're looking out for other people to imagine the distancing that's going on in order to save everybody in the world. And most everybody is doing it. There's a few exceptions, but those are few exceptions.

And so what's happening if in the coronavirus and everybody, the whole world is one for a minute, and if you could kind of freeze that idea and say, okay.

This moment of oneness only happens every hundred years. We get glimpses of it at the Olympics or in an earthquake or in a fire. But if we could freeze that for a minute and say, okay, this is the basic assumption of uri, that we are all one. And if we're one, all one, then what can we do together to make the community better? And that could be anything. By carrying on conversations that help liberate people and make them more sensitive to folks of other races and nationalities and religions and that sort of thing. Or it might come to more than talk. It might also be action. It might be lots and lots of things. But this is such an amazing moment in time in terms of understanding oneness in the world.

It really is. And I just love how you phrased it, even this inquiry, if we are all one, which we are for this moment in time, what can we do? To make the community better. I'm seeing a lot of press around people who are sensing, you know, when we get past the worst of it or when we stop sheltering at home, and that it feels as if. And this is creating duality where it doesn't quite need to be. But are things going to go back to the way they were, or are we going to evolve? Are we going to become a little more united? Are we going to cooperate in these ways moving forward that we've seen are actually possible? Getting children, technology, making sure they're fed even when they're not at school? You know, there are so many things that are happening right now as we deal with this as a collective. What do you think would. And I know this is a big question, but what do you think would aid us all in elongating this moment of oneness and actually turning this time into a more collaborative future, rather than where we were seeing society go up till this point of growing income inequality and all the division in our world?

Yeah, I think.

I think pointing out that we all have it in us to be one.

Usually we're so cynical for lots of good reasons, but.

We have proven to ourselves at this moment that we have it in us to look out for everybody in the world.

Therefore, it's in us someplace. And we've got to make our appeal to that sense of oneness that it's in there and it could be harnessed on a daily basis after this thing is over.

So it needs to be part of the memory bank. First of all, it needs to be recognized. Our oneness has to be recognized, and then it has to be part of the memory bank. And then we have to appeal to it, and then we got to do something about it.

So that we don't just zip back to the same old diversions and prejudices, etc. You know? Well, anyway, every once in a while, I turn on television and I see one. This station is sowing the seeds of division, and this nation is sowing the seeds of that division. Can't we just enjoy for a minute the fact that we're all in this together.

Also? It depends on what you do with this.

So I was listening to the radio the other day when I was driving. I only drove for about 10 minutes in the last three weeks. But some guy said.

If you're in a bank and a robber comes in and gets into.

A gunfight with the policeman in the bank and you get shot in the arm, what's your reaction? And he said, one reaction would be to Say, wow, I only got shot in the arm. He could hit me in the heart or the head. I could have died. Thank goodness it was only in the arm. The other reaction is, of all the people in the bank, why me?

And the guy's point is that the world is going to give you lots of ways to interpret what's happening to you, but you have the possibility and the responsibility to interpret what's happening to you.

Nobody forces you to say.

Why me? Or how lucky. You've got to control your own narrative. And so I think what we need to do is just keep enforcing the narrative, enforcing the narrative so that human beings can say, well.

We are lucky. We only got it in the arm. We do belong to each other. I'm glad that other people in the bank didn't get shot, et cetera, et cetera.

Well, to your point, even as I asked you that question and I said, with so much division and inequality, I realized, there I go, I'm focusing on what's wrong. And meanwhile, you've told me this beautiful story of over a million people and how they're stepping up during this time. So it's funny that you ended on that note about perspective, because it came into me right as I was even asking the question. Sure. It's even in our language, and it's how we talk, and it's where we point our attention.

I'm curious. So among your many career accolades, you served as the seventh bishop of the Episcopal Diocese of California for 26 years. I'm wondering what drew you to the ministry, how you knew you had the calling, and also how you knew it was time to pivot or what inspired you to shift into uri. And I know also that that's the topic of your book, so if anyone's interested, it's called A Bishop's Founding United Religions.

Yeah. Also, I have another book called the Sacred and the Silly.

I saw that. I want to ask you about that, too.

I love it.

I don't think anyone expects a bishop's playful and eventful life. We just have to talk about that. So in.

Whatever. Let me just talk. Let me talk about that first. What happened was, if you've been a priest and a bishop in West Virginia and Washington, D.C. in California, San Francisco Bay Area, for 58 years, so many silly things have happened, and I didn't want to go to my grave with all those silly stories. They're really great stories. So I wrote this book just to make sure I got them down for other people to enjoy the things that I'VE enjoyed in life.

What's your favorite silly story?

Oh, so many of them.

Or a recent one.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's really hard. But let me say that when I was 11 years old, I played football on a vacant lot in Huntington, West Virginia. And we didn't know who owned the vacant lot. And it was snowing and raining, and we were in sloppy. And it turns out the.

Playground, the field, was owned by the Episcopal Church next door. And the priest came out and he said, now, boys, you don't want to be in the slop. Come on in. I've got a ping pong table. Why don't you play ping pong? So the year was 1947. So all of us trooped in and we played ping pong. And it was warm. And he said, now. After a couple weeks, he said, now, boys, Christmas is coming. How many of you boys would like to wear a uniform and light candles?

Wear a uniform. That sounded great to me. So I held up my hand. I held up my hand, and the next thing I knew, I was the Bishop of California.

Oh, my goodness.

There'S the serendipity. Yeah, I like the shortcut you took there between 11 years old and Bishop of California.

But see, what happened to me was I was sitting in my office in San Francisco on Nob Hill next to Grace Cathedral, and the United nations called and they said, we're going. This is 1993. And they said, in two years, we're going to celebrate the 50th anniversary of the United Nations.

And since the charter was written in San Francisco and signed in San Francisco, we'd like to come home to San Francisco to have a big celebration of our 50th. And we'd like to come to Grace Cathedral and we'd like to have a big service. Could you. Would you host that? And I said, yes, I'd be honored to do that. And they said, well, our vision for the service is that we'd have 185ambassadors of all the nations of the world, and we'd like you, and we'll bring them there. And we also want to have all the major religious leaders of the world, and we want you to bring them on.

You want me to bring all the religious leaders of the world?

You got this, bill.

So I said, sure. You know, I'm not doing anything this afternoon. I'll make a few phone calls. And I went to bed that night and I thought, what did I just say yes to? And.

I was thinking, hans Kung said, there'll never Be peace among nations without peace among religions.

And if there's a United nations, why isn't there united religions?

And I thought as stupid. And I don't know anything about Buddhism and Hinduism and all that kind of stuff, but I thought, well, somebody's got to do something. So I made a vow to God that night to be.

Catalyst for the creation of something, let's call it the United Religions. That would parallel the United nations or call it something I don't know. So I got up the next morning and.

Started working on going around the world. And I talked to the Pope and the Dalai Lama and the Mother Teresa and.

The Chief Rabbi and Grand Muftis and one Buddhist and Vishwa Kosekai. I talked to everybody I could talk to in the world. And I asked him one question. And the one question was, religious leader, are you willing to deputize somebody from your tradition to meet with deputies from other religious traditions in order to pursue peace among religions? Because if we got more peace among religions, it would change the world. And they said, absolutely not. What? I said, no, no.

And so I can't believe that I'm actually shocked. I thought for sure. And they said, yes, thank you for organizing this.

Yeah, yeah, no, no, no, I can understand. We can get back to that. But so I said to myself, this is going to happen because the world's going to make it happen. They're going to say, come on, religions. Everybody else is working on peace making. Why don't you guys get together and work on it? I was thinking, you know, the United nations have met every day for 50 years to struggle for peace among each other. And in the same 50 years, the religions of the world haven't spent one minute together. And so I thought, okay, the world is going to insist that religion step up to the plate someday. And then I thought, well, okay, if it's not going to be the religious leaders of the world.

It'Ll be the religious people of the world. It'll be the grassroots people. They have the freedom of movement and they don't have to answer to hierarchies and to defend the faith and act like that. We're different than everybody else. People at the grassroots level have the possibility of coming together in ways that religious leaders could never come together. So I made a big pivot and stopped thinking about religious leaders and started thinking about grassroots leaders or people. And the rest of the. The rest is history. I went out to the bank.

To get started. I went to a bank and I got a million dollar line of credit. I Had no money. I'm a clergyman. I live on a clergy salary. So I went to a bank, and I got a million dollars from a bank. And if you ever wonder why banks get in trouble, anybody, any bank that would give me a million dollars, I'm already laughing. Yeah, they're asking for trouble.

So I hired four people. We started doing interfaith conferences around the world. We began to meet fabulous people all over the world. We brought them all to Stanford and there. And we built from there. And at one Moment, after about three years, my wife and I were $800,000 in debt. So this is not a. You know, this is not a pursuit that's. Oh, it's an interesting thing to do, or it's kind of novel and fun, or wouldn't it be good? This is. I'm all in. And my wife Mary is all in. We've traveled the world together. We've gambled everything on this. So we got skin in the game.

So. Well said. What a powerful story. And I just love how you shifted the focus. I see what you did there with the use of the word pivot, but shifted it to the grassroots that if it's not gonna. If the leaders aren't gonna agree, you didn't let that get in the way. And this vow was so strong to be a catalyst for united religions. And you're so right. Why shouldn't we have a parallel organization? I am curious. You made it sound so easy, like, oh, I just talked to the Pope and the Dalai Lama. How on earth did you get access to all these people?

It was a miracle. I had.

I had no.

I had no game plan. I just got on an airplane with Mary and we took off. And, you know, you land in Egypt and in Cairo, and I got in touch with the Anglican bishop, and I said, could you introduce me to the grant to the Sheikh of Alazar, who's the big man? And he said, no, I can't do that. He's too big. But I can introduce you to the Grand Mufti of Egypt. So I went by to meet the Grand Mufti of Egypt, and the phone rang, and he said, wait a minute. May I take this? And so he got on the phone, and it was the President of Egypt. And the Sheikh of Al Azhar had just died that. That morning. And they were asking.

The president was asking the man that I was talking with to come in because he was going to be appointed as the Sheikh of Al Azhar.

To make the big decisions on behalf of the university and all the people in the Sunni tradition that are looking at him. Well, you know, I not only met and got to know the Grand Mufti of Egypt, I got to know the sheikh of Al Azhar by chance on that particular moment. And I was in Oxford one day and some guy said, you ought to meet Hans Kuhn, the great theologian. I said, well, I don't know Hans Kuhn, he said, but I do. So he called up, and Hans Kuhn said, I'll see you in three days in tubing in Germany. So I just got an airplane and took off.

I remember being in the Vatican. I got a friend of mine, got me an appointment with a cardinal who gave me a little thing to go to a.

Papal service in St. Peter's Square. And there were 25,000 people. And I took this letter thinking, okay, I'll be in the yellow section or the blue section. And I gave it to a Swiss Guard. And he walked my wife Mary and me right up to the Pope and seated us right next to him to his throne in St. Peter's Square. And I got to talk with the Pope afterwards.

It was just one amazing introduction after another after another after another. I was. I was so privileged to meet these people. And I must say.

About every. Almost 98% of them were really quality people. So.

It was a magical journey. And, you know, I was in. I was speaking to 200,000 people on the Palamba river in India, and somebody said, you ought to go up and see Mother Teresa. And I said, well, I don't know Mother Teresa. He said, well, I know Mother Teresa. Come with me. So he went over to Calcutta and went down a dark alley, and there's little wooden sign on the door says, M. Theresa.

You knock on the door, and here comes mother Teresa, like 4 foot 8 in her blue things and tennis shoes, you know, saying, oh, my, this is wonderful to see you. Come in, let's talk, let's pray. I love United Religions idea. Let's go.

It was just one miracle after another miracle after another.

That is so. What an incredible story. A magical journey indeed. My. One of my themes of this year, I said it in January, before all the craziness started, is miracles. So I just love hearing your story. And that's how you know you're walking your path. You know, just one door opens on the next. And you said yes to. At every turn you got on those planes, you. And you had the intention. And wow. How.

What I've learned is if you're really committed and you're on the right track, the Right person shows up at the right time every time. And here's an example. Absolutely.

I'm.

So we're sitting there in 1998, $800,000 in debt, and we have no money. We got to spend a lot of money. And we're working on the charter with De Hawk. And it's August, and everybody's gone. And we're sitting there laboring on phone rings down the hall. Bill. A guy named Bill runs down, comes back and says, who is that? Bill said, well, strange. There was a lady from upstate New York, and her mother died in Germany. And the mother left some money and said, please give this money away right away. And she said, well, I've been. I've been calling up different organizations here in August, and they all say, well, our development officer is on vacation. Call back in September.

We said, Bill said, well, we're here. We'll take the money. And we said, well, Bill, how much money did the lady say that we would receive? And he said, I was so nervous, I didn't ask. And so we thought, well, $10,000 would help. Or 15. That'd be great. And three days later, three days later, a check for a million dollars arrived.

And you look up in the sky. Wow. You want us to keep going, don't you?

Right.

Don't give up here now. Keep going.

Oh, and don't those come at just the right time, too? It's like you're about to give up hope. And then there's that unmistakable sign. Keep going.

Yeah, it's the right person who shows up at the right time every time.

If you're pursuing the right thing, if.

You'Re paying attention, if you're paying attention. It reminds me.

If you. If you give it your all, if you jump off the big board, it.

Reminds me of the parable, of the converse, the flip side of this, where the person's drowning and they say, God help me, I'm drowning. And so God sends a boat, and he says, no, no, I'm waiting for God. I'm waiting for a miracle. And then, you know, he sends the next resource in the next. And then he finally dies and asks, God in heaven, why'd you let me drown? He says, I kept sending help. You didn't take it.

That's right. Exactly.

You are open. You were open and available. And following these clues.

Yes.

I'm still curious. I still want to rewind back to your original pivot from baseball into lighting candles into the church.

How?

Well, you're 11 years old and you got this talk about serendipity and the right person showing up at the right time. I'm still curious how that led to pursuing this career as an adult, because I would imagine especially for a young boy, not even yet a teenager.

I don't know, it might be the last thing on your mind is joining the ministry, becoming a bishop.

Yeah. Actually, the two answers to that one would be.

As I was from that point on, I went away to camp and I met young priests who came back from World War II. And they were priests who were interested in kids, they were spiritual, they were intellectually curious, they were fun. And I thought the most well rounded, deep people I'd ever met were priests. And I thought.

I think I'd like to be like these guys.

So that's part of it. And secondly, I worked on the South Branch of the Potomac river in.

Romney, West Virginia, and Petersburg and Moorefield in the summertime. And.

I thought I would love to be the vicar of two small.

Parishes along the South Branch of Potomac. I'd love to be a priest at Moorefield and Petersburg, West Virginia. And I went into the priesthood and then thinking, that's what I do. I've never been within 200 miles of south Branch of the Potomac.

I've always gone to other kinds of. Other kinds of places.

So it's been a. I went to a steel town and the first, after four months, the vestry had voted to whether to fire me or not. They said I was the most immature young priest they'd ever seen. And I had a very bad voice. They couldn't hear me. And when they did hear me preach, it wasn't worth listening to. And they took a vote and the vote was 6 to 6 whether whether to fire me. And.

So I've, you know, it hadn't been just upward and onward. I've had some. It took me a long time to get out of the starting blocks in the priesthood.

What I really loved was the bishop gave up on me and sent me to the dirtiest place in the diocese, right next to a steel mill.

I had a church in a plumbing garage and I fell in love with the place. And I love the people and the dirt, steel and everything. And I became, I really became a priest. In that little town.

You live and die with the people. And.

I started a church in a racetrack for the jockeys and hot walkers. Waterford Park Racetrack.

Had a church in a pottery town.

Chester, West Virginia.

I wasn't a golden boy who just. Everything just fell into my lap.

It's been a journey.

It sounds like a book Future book, or at least a chapter titled the Dirtiest Place in the Diocese.

When we woke up in the morning, my wife and I would take our heads off the pillow and the steel dust made a circle around where our head was.

Oh, my gosh.

When I say dirty, I mean dirty.

Wow. Well, you made it through. And look at you now.

I've always loved the lotus flower because it grows in mud, and it's a very beautiful flower, and it's, of course, symbolic as well. But I just love that idea that this flower grows in mud. And I think it's such a good metaphor for our lives.

Absolutely. Well, I hadn't heard that. That's good. I'll look at it differently.

Yeah, just look up photos of lotus flowers if you can zoom out to see them, how they grow.

So, okay, you and my brother connected on books when you first met, serendipitously, of course, on the sidewalk outside a sports basement. As we start to wrap up, I would love to know if there are one or two books, of course, in addition to your own A Bishop's Quest and the Sacred of the Silly. What are one or two books that have been particularly inspirational for you? And they don't have to be the most serious books you've ever read, but what are books that you think listeners of this podcast, or especially now during these times, would benefit from?

Oh, good question. During the season of Lent, I've been reading Jon Meacham's book on the Hope of Glory, Reflections on the Last Words of Jesus from the Cross. And that's been a wonderful book for me. So it's fresh on my mind. And I love reading about Franklin, Benjamin Franklin and George Washington.

And Teddy Roosevelt. I've been reading autobiography or biographies, and I've loved those.

There was, when I was in seminary, there was a book called the Meaning of Persons by Paul Ternier.

And the way he takes or took people so seriously has had a big impact on my life. The Meaning of Persons by Paul Ternier.

In the show notes, also when we were speaking, I was reminded of Thomas Merton's Seven Story Mountain.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

And of course, Richard Rohr. And you strike me, of course. I've never met Thomas Merton. That's not possible. But nor have I met Richard Rohr. But I have to say, the leaders that I find most inspirational have a lighthearted quality to them that you do, whether it's the Dalai Lama or Richard Rohr or Gregory Boyle who does homeboy industries in la. I really appreciate this sense of joy that you bring to the world, even while doing such important work.

You know, I'm glad you mentioned that. When I was in Kanchipuram, India, and I met the Great Shankaracharya.

And I was on my, you know, on the floor, and he was in his little throne and I would say something and if it was. If he thought it was true, he'd start giggling.

If I said something that he thought was really true, he'd start laughing out loud.

Amazing.

Which kind of throws you off at the beginning of a conversation. But I went from the Shankaracharya and Kanchipuram to Dharamsala with the Dalai Lama, and sure enough, he began to giggle too. And he began to laugh. If we were talking about something and something was true.

There was a joy about it.

So, yeah, I've noticed that in a lot of very spiritual people.

There's our next podcast title. Is the Joy of Truth.

Yeah.

Or the Truth of Joy. One way or the other. Or both.

Pontius Pilate asked the question, what is truth? Maybe we could be. Maybe you could say giggles and laughter.

Yes. Well, it's perfect that you. It's perfect that you wrote the book the Sacred and the Silly that illustrates this so, so well.

Yeah.

Bill, what a delight. I had no idea what to expect coming to this conversation. And I'm just so thankful that you met my brother and you said yes to be on the Pivot podcast. I know I'm no Dalai Lama, but wow. I'm thankful to be in your path of yeses.

Jenny. You're a good adventurer to take on an old bishop from San Francisco. That's great. Good for you.

Oh, my gosh. Well, I just love what you're doing. I feel like we only just scratched the surface on what United Religions Initiative is up to, and I genuinely hope that Pivot Podcast listeners will look into it, reach out, do additional research. I mean, what an incredible and important project. I'm just so thankful that you're leading the charge. And congratulations on your fast approaching 20 year anniversary.

Thank you very much. That'll be fun.

I know. Are you going to celebrate?

Yep, yep, yep, yep. Lots of ways. In lots of ways. We're working on it right now.

Amazing. Well, I'll put all the links to what you're up to in the show notes, listeners, you can find those@pivotmethod.com podcast. Phil, thank you so much again.

Okay, Jenny, blessings of the springtime to you.

Thanks so much for listening to this episode of the Pivot Podcast. Make sure you don't miss an episode or my insider tag tips and templates by signing up for Pivot List, a curated twice monthly newsletter where I share the inside scoop on what I'm reading, watching, listening to, and the latest tools I'm geeking out on. Sign up@pivotmethod.com pivotlist get show notes from this episode@pivotmethod.com podcast and connect with me on Twitter ennyblake.

Remember, build first, then your courage will follow. Hasn't it always.