199: Creating Happier Hours and the Diminishing Returns of Too Much Free Time With Cassie Holmes

So good, so good, so good.

New markdowns are on at your Nordstrom Rack store. Save even more. Up to 70% on dresses, tops, boots and handbags to give and get.

Cause I always find something amazing.

Just so many good brands.

I get an extra 5% off with my Nordstrom credit card Total queen treatment.

Join the Nordy Club at Nordstrom Rack to unlock our best deals. Big gifts, big perks. That's why you rack.

It's really about how we invest the time that we have to make our days feel more joyful so that we're not sort of just moving through them in this hurry and to make it so that we feel really satisfied and fulfilled with our lives. And so at the end of our years, we're not looking back with regret.

This is your time. How can we earn twice as much in half the time with joy and ease while serving the highest good? That is our guiding question here at the Freetime Cafe, your home for heart based business. I'm your host, Jenny Blake. Join me for conversations with authors, friends and fellow business owners as we explore ways to free your mind, time and team to do your best work. Now onto today's show.

Welcome back, free Timers. Jenny Blake here and I am absolutely delighted and honored to welcome Cassie Holmes to the show. Cassie is a professor at UCLA's Anderson School of Management, an award winning teacher and researcher on time and happiness, and the best selling author of Happier how to beat Distraction. Expand your time and focus on what matters most. I was telling Cassie before we hit record that I think this is the most texts from friends that I've ever gotten for a book launch of people saying, do you know Cassie? Can you have Cassie on the show? You two would be a match made in heaven. So with that, Cassie, welcome to the show.

Oh, thank you so much for having me. And I'm excited for this. Match made in heaven. It's gonna be fun. Yay. Yeah. Yes.

Match made in free time heaven. And I mentioned to you I went to UCLA for undergrad. So the big secret is that all of my books are brewing colors. So there's some combo of baby blue and gold. Yeah. Yellow and gold.

Fantastic. Yay.

I found it really interesting because what I didn't know from listening to your podcast tour for this book that your initial interest for your research and your schooling was around happiness. Specifically in the final week of making wedding preparations for your dream wedding, your fiance called with a very fateful phone call and he said, I'm not ready to get married. And you write in the Book that in an instant your smiley existence, you had this really sunny disposition had shattered along with your vision of a perfectly laid future. I can't even imagine that feeling. Was there any part of you, I'm always curious when things like this happen. Was there any part of your intuition that had been giving clues along the way? Or did this completely come out of the blue?

Well, I mean, there were some hints that he was getting sort of nervous leading up to our big wedding. But whether because of or despite everything, my cheery disposition, I was just so like, of course everything would be fine. And I was so optimistic that I need everything and we could make anything happy. And I was just so sure because.

Everything had been happy mostly in my life. I mean, certainly there are sort of day to day circumstances that can be frustrating or draining. But I was just so sure that I could make things happy. But it was sort of an uninformed shrewdness and it was very much reliant on just the fact that things had gone well so far. And I was lucky enough to sort of have a cheerier disposition. And so it was quite shocking. I mean, that was the first time in my life that I actually got depressed because it was like, oh my gosh, I was so, so in love with this person. So much so that we were going to spend the rest of our lives together. And I was literally in the car, pulling out of the driveway, going down for wedding preparations. Like my wedding dress was in the car. I was packed for the honeymoon. Hundreds of people from around the country were going to be gathering in two weeks in San Diego for this big event. And I just couldn't believe that, that this sort of future that I had envisioned and that that sort of my happy existence was getting shattered. But I actually think it ended up being so great. I mean, as odd as that sounds, I mean, for one thing, I ended up with a man who is like, thank gosh, he is the person that I should be with and we have built a wonderful life together. But also think, gosh, because it showed me that my shrewdness in happiness wasn't just reliant on these things that we're actually not in control of. So our happiness, a big part of it, is determined by our inherited disposition. Are you sort of naturally more glass half full or sort of the like empty part of the glass? And also circumstances do have an effect, they have a smaller effect than we think, but those things aren't out of our control. And what I learned in this and actually going to the research Because I had started studying happiness as an academic pursuit. I was in my PhD program, but this made me much more attentive to it of like, holy cow, how can we make decisions in our day to day life? What should those decisions be? That gives us some agency, gives us some control, gives us some tools, despite our inherited disposition, despite our circumstances, that allow us to choose happiness. And that sort of propelled me not only to study it, but to really apply what the science points to as these tools that we can go back to and rely on when we can't rely on our circumstances. And I mean, that was sort of devastating experience in my life. But all of us, you know, in the last few years with the pandemic, all of us were presented with devastating circumstances. And it's again, sort of going to the research, looking to the science. What are these tools that we can implement so that we are more resilient in the face of these negative events, so that we can choose happiness. And when I say happiness, what I'm talking about is what we feel in the day to day, but also our sort of evaluation of our lives as satisfying. And so it was certainly event that I wouldn't have chosen. But from that I learned that our happiness is up to our choices.

It reminds me of the parable we'll see where these events that are so devastating and just telling all the guests would. Putting myself in your shoes would feel so humiliating and horrible. Like, that's worse. I don't know what's worse, having to do that or having your fiance say he's not ready to do this. And it also reminds me of one of my favorite Garth Brooks songs, unanswered prayers. Isn't it interesting how sometimes we think this thing is going to make me happy, you know, marrying this person at this moment in time and then it becomes this unanswered prayer that the logic of which is only shown to you later. And we could come back to the story of how you met your husband, your now husband. Looking back, was there an unanswered prayer of that not going through? I mean, beyond the research itself, which you were describing to us just now, just for you personally, I mean, as.

It'S all played out, I'm like, thank gosh. But I will absolutely say for a long, like I did not think it was a prayer that I had.

Oh, yay. How wonderful. Everything happens for a reason. Yeah.

It took me a while to think that things, you know. Yes. So in hindsight and looking at my life overall at this point, I'm like Yes, thank God. Goodness. But I wouldn't say that was the case at the point. And as you said, I mean, there was everything about it that was devastating. It's like a. This person whom I wanted to spend the rest of my life with was basically breaking up with me and deconstructing this wedding and telling everyone. It's like, oh, yeah, it's not happening. And having to go and like call all the vendors and try to get some money back.

Terrible. It's just terrible. It was the unhappiest hour. Oh, my goodness. Well, I love how you've taken that and kind of unpacked. What can I do? And it sounds like as you were sharing, it's driven a lot of the research, which is things are going to happen to us that we don't want. Circumstantial situations, things where we get pivoted, or as you said, the pandemic hits. And, and it's been interesting to see you tie together that research on happiness with time. One of the findings that I found most fascinating from your book and as I was listening to you on the podcast tour, was that there's diminishing returns on having too much free time, because we all know the feeling of being pinched and having time scarcity and that feeling of there's never enough time. But I have not really heard researchers talking about too much time, other than when you hear people talk about retirees not necessarily being happier because they don't know what to do with themselves. For those of us who are still in our prime working years, what is it with too much free time that leads to those diminishing returns?

Yeah. And I think it's so important to have recognized because as you said, that that sort of fateful day was a big motivator for why I study happiness. But another sort of big motivator, the other sort of component of my research, is around time. And I had a poignant experience with that too, where I just felt like the biggest barrier for my own happiness. I felt like it was lack of time, that it was early in my career when I was an assistant professor at Wharton and it was just the pressures of work. I had a new baby and I had a husband who I wanted to be a good partner to. I had friends that I wanted to be good friends to the never ending pile of chores. And I remember this night when I was coming back from New York to Philly, I'd given a talk and it was the very last train that would get me home to my 4 month old at the time Leo and I was like, I don't know if I can keep up, right? I was looking out the window as like the night lights were whizzing by. And I was like, it is all going by in such a blur. I am stressed, I am exhausted. I can't do it all. I can't do it all well, I can't enjoy any of it along the way because there's just aren't enough hours in the day. And it's those moments that I feel like a lot of people can relate to, of just that hurriedness that we're in and in our research now, which I'm actually digging into, is this experience of time poverty, this feeling of having too much to do and just not enough time to do it. And that made me think, I was like, the solution is that I should quit my job because then I would have all the hours of my day to spend exactly how I wanted. I was actually envisioning, like moving to a beach and thinking that then I would be happier, right? It's like the relaxation and having control over all of my time. But the question is, is that true, right? Are people who have a whole lot of discretionary time, in fact happier? And it was this question that drove us, and with a couple of my colleagues, Hal Hirschfeld and Marissa Sharif, to look at what is the relationship between the amount of discretionary time people have and their happiness? And we saw in our data. So we looked across studies. In one of the studies, we analyzed data from the American Time Use survey that calculates for tens of thousands of working and non working Americans how they spend a regular day. And with that we could calculate how much time they spent on discretionary time. It was really interesting because the pattern of results was consistent across our studies and quite clear. And what it was was like this upside down U shape, which is interesting because it means that happiness goes down on both ends of the spectrum. So yes, people with too little time, those who are time poor, like me on the train, were less happy and that's because they feel more stressed. But this other part, which is what you're asking about, which I think is so important to recognize, is that there is some such thing as having too much discretionary time. And in that data it was those with more than approximately five hours of discretionary time in the day. But I think the bigger point is why? How is it like as I was imagining, you know, my glorious life living on the beach where I had all the hours to spend however I wanted. How could that be? Associated with less happiness. And what we found digging into that data as well as in additional studies, is that we are driven to be somewhat productive. We are averse to being idle. And so when we spend all the hours of our days, and this isn't vacation, this is sort of a regular day in and day out with nothing to show for how we spend those hours, it undermines our sense of purpose. And from that we feel less satisfied. And this is so helpful for us to keep in mind in those hectic days where the sort of thought is that the solution is to quit everything and in fact the solution isn't to quit everything. The solution is and interestingly, but the pattern of results, yes, it goes down on both ends of the spectrum, but there's also a really wide range in the middle where it's flat, suggesting that there's not a relationship between how much available or discretionary time you have in your happiness. Which means that really the answer is less about how much you have available and really how you spend and invest what you have available. And that has been what has sort of propelled me in my research. Basically, given that some of our happiness is subject to our choice, we have influence over it. And then how do we influence our happiness? And my answer, it's really about which is in line with your work, it's really about how we invest the time that we have to make our days feel more joyful so that we're not sort of just moving through them in this hurry. And and to make it so that we feel really satisfied and fulfilled with our lives. And so at the end of our years we're not looking back with regret.

We'll be right back just after this.

Hi, this is Deechen Lackman and I am here to tell you Toyotathon is on. So stop by your local Toyota dealer for incredible year end deals on the cars, trucks and SUVs known for their legendary reliability like the stylish and efficient Camry the Ready for anything RAV4 or check out a rough and rugged Tacoma or Tundra, all with great financing and lease options available to qualified customers. Visit buyatoyota.com to find out more. Toyota let's go places.

When the holidays start to feel a bit repetitive. Reach for a Sprite Winter Spiced Cranberry and put your twist on tradition. A bold cranberry and winter spice Flavor Fusion Sprite Winter Spice Cranberry is a refreshing way to shake things up this sipping season and only for a limited time. Sprite obey your thirst.

I really appreciated how you teased out in the book, our happiest activities as well. And then the least happy. So the least happy being ones that are lonely, obligatory, or that feel wasteful. Like standing in line at the dmv. The good old classic deal. Oh my gosh. When I realized when someone tells me I have to call the tax department of New York State or the federal, I lose my mind. Like, I just lose my mind.

Yes, I get unhappy time.

Yes. At wasted time or trying to fix an error on a credit card bill that doesn't belong there. And maybe it's the fifth time I'm calling. I get rage when my time is wasted like that for really stupid bureaucratic things. But that rant aside, it was interesting that on the happiest activities you say connecting through conversation and of course, getting outside, getting fresh air. And I love the exercise you describe that you have your students do to get to know each other, that in just 15 minutes you ask them to have a conversation. So can you tell us a little bit about this exercise? Because it made me smile reading it. I thought of podcasting in general as a format kind of matches what you're describing in this part of your research and your experience with your students.

I totally agree. And it's fun to talk about because I'm teaching right now. So I teach this course, applying the Science of Happiness to Life design to our MBA students and executive MBA students. And in the class last week was this exercise, and it was just so fun to see them do it. And I participated as well. So basically, in light of time tracking as well as, I mean, research across fields, not just, you know, psychology, you see it in philosophy and all these places that our happiness relies on social connection and sort of genuine connection. And one sort of part of that is connecting through conversation. And there's with friendship and sort of development of closeness, there is this observation that it involves escalating and reciprocal self disclosure. So escalating that it's like as you talk more, you're sharing more, you're more disclosive. But there's also this reciprocal aspect of it where it's like, I will share with you and I would love to learn about your experience too, and listen. And so there's this relationship closeness induction task, which sounds very sort of dry, but basically it's these sets of questions. There's different lists of them. There's the first set, you have two minutes. And I pair my students up together, two minutes to each person asks one of the questions, answers it, and the other person asks the same question. Then the person answers it. And in that first set, it's like, what's your name? Where are you from? A lot of the types of questions like, what do you do for work? You know, why did you come to ucla Anderson? It's those types of questions that generally, you know, is the content of cocktail party conversation of like, very superficial. But then I tell the students, okay, move on to the next list of questions. And they have five minutes to talk through those. And these are more disclusive. It's like, how do you spend your time? You know, like, what hobbies do you have? It's about your current experience of like, how you spend your time. And then like, where have you gone on vacation? Where would you like to go on vacation? And then I tell them to move on to the last set of questions and they have eight minutes to talk about those. And these are the sort of the meaty questions that really gets into one's sort of emotional experience of like, what is your greatest fear? What is your happiest childhood memory? Do you have a hard time meeting people and making friends? What is the sort of hang up? Or where do you find that source of connection? So it's really sort of digging into the other person's experience. And it's so fun to learn about an individual. And it just is 15 minutes, right? It's a two minutes, then whatever. And it's amazing how the closeness, like, even though my students sort of know each other from being in the MBA program together, some of them are more like, don't know each other. But regardless of where they started the conversation, inevitably they end up feeling closer and feeling like they have a new friend. And it's so wonderful. And I shared in the book that since you asked about my sort of.

Broken engagement, I'm definitely glad you're going here.

Yeah. So with my husband, it was about six months actually after the broken engagement. And I was set up, like by a friend on this, a coffee date as a blind date. And I was like, sure. And I show up and this guy, he like asks like his very after, you know, we sat down and whatever. His very first question was the last list of questions in this relationship closeness induction task. He's like, what to you is a good life? He just got right there. And I was like, oh, this will be fun. And so it was from that very sort of open and authentic and sort of sharing, you know, reciprocal disclosure conversation that sort of immediately connected us and then has borne out across my life where I'm so happy to have the Best conversation partner I could have as my partner, as my husband. These questions are so available, you know, like those, like conversation cards. And I think there's something to it that it sort of ushers us into connecting in a deeper and more open way that is so joyful because of that connection that comes from it.

I agree. I was at a dinner party and the host pulled out a deck of conversation cards. And I think we got through one, maximum two at this dinner. But it immediately dove us into some profound questions, like, what is still your biggest insecurity? And it was a group of kind of business people. So some of us had known each other for a long time, but not all. And it was just fascinating. Kind of like your husband's opening move. Bravo to your husband. I was wondering when I was reading, who is this guy that starts by asking, what are the components of a filling life? Like, it's so bold. Do you think he had also been through what was his journey to get to where. That's his opener. Or maybe he's just a really deep guy. I love it.

It's actually because. So he was at Stanford. We were both at Stanford at the time. At the business school. I was doing my PhD, but he was in the MBA program. And they have this notorious class. They call it Touchy Feely, but I think it's like interpersonal dynamics or something. And so he had been taking this class which is absolutely about leading individuals to understand within a group how they are perceived, how they show up, how they can sort of show up more authentically. So he had been taking this course that had gotten all of them right there in it. And I know that a lot of people love the course, and then some actually find it quite uncomfortable. But my husband is someone who is like, you give him something to tackle and he will tackle it. So he was like, I will become the best, most emotionally disclosing person you know. So I caught him at sort of that time.

He's got to thank that professor, because I totally do. It worked.

It's interesting that you said, you know, at this dinner party with the conversation cards, because that question that you guys were sort of tackled of your biggest insecurity, that's exactly the type of question that will connect. Whereas I've also been to a dinner party where the host had all of us go around and say the most interesting thing about ourselves, which was terrible. Like, what makes you interesting?

That's the worst. The opposite.

It's totally the opposite. It, like, makes people sort of present in such a way. That is not authentic.

And then you feel insecure, like you're thinking the whole time, what should I say? Is it impressive enough? Oh, my gosh. Yeah.

Whereas the question that you guys got is that's the type of question that will allow people and sort of encourage people to connect in a real way.

Yeah. And it's so vulnerable. Answering a puffery question is more annoying than anything else.

It's totally the worst.

But then the insecure question are ones like it, the ones you've had your students do. It's more vulnerable. And what I appreciated what you said in the book, is you kind of fall in love with your partner a little bit or anyone at the table. And there was that famous New York Times article, you know, where people were like, someone tried to pull it on me, like, let's answer these 35 questions together. And I already knew what it was. This was like, not a guy I should have really been dating. But the point is, even with podcasting, it's actually hard not to fall in love with my guests a little bit by the time we're done, or a lot bit where I've read their book, I've done the research, I'm sitting there listening, and we're talking and we're connecting, and it's just so special to do this. And it doesn't come from the boasting and the showboating. It comes from the vulnerable moments. Those are the ones that we're lucky to have in a conversation, whether it's 15 minutes or an hour or more, I think.

And I know that Covid has sort of like, boosted this form of communication through podcast. And it's so funny, because actually, in this sort of domain of time, where there's all this discussion that our attention span is getting so short and we're always rushing through, and that folks only have the patience to watch something for three minutes, even three minutes is too long. But that's not true, because these podcast conversations are, you know, an hour. And it's so fulfilling because you're sort of settling into a conversation. It's not rushed. It is absolutely fulfilling. Through that connection. Again, sort of talking about some of these broader conclusions from my research that I make in the book, when it's sort of a question of time and happiness, it is not about the quantity. It's not about how much time you have available or even how much you spend. It's totally about the quality of that time, like, what's really worthwhile. And that worthwhile can come from connection. It can come from learning or inspiration or awe or genuine, like excited productivity where you create something. It's so interesting, and I suspect that you're sort of up against this too, that when people think about time management so often, it's sort of this idea of how much can you get done as quickly as possible. And it's about checking things off the list without actually looking at the outcome of it or even the input of it. And so I think that these podcast conversations are so glorious in terms of so clearly showing that it's not about making things short and just checking it off the list, that you can actually make something really wonderful by slowing down and really being in the time that you're spending as opposed to sort of trying to move through it.

We'll be right back just after this.

This message may be shocking to many millennials. If you are one, you might want to sit down right now. Loads of people are searching the following on Depop Low rise jeans, halter top, velour, tracksuit, hookah shell, necklace, disc belt. You likely place these in the dark of your closet in 2004, never to be seen again. But if you can find it in yourself to dust them off, there are a lot of people who will give you money for them. Sell on Depop, where taste Recognizes taste We've got gifting all wrapped up at Sephora. Gift more and spend less with our value sets packed with the best, best makeup, skincare, fragrances and hair care they'll love. This year's Showstopper gift sets are bursting with beauty products from Rare Beauty, Summer Fridays, Glossier Amika, and so much more. Shop holiday gifts@sephora.com and give something beautiful.

I love what you said. That phrase excited productivity. Like that's true. That's the fun stuff. I even find it deeply satisfying and rewarding as a podcast listener because as I learned from you, the getting outside is such a crucial piece and connecting through conversation, even though it's not quite the same as going on a IRL walk and talk with a best friend. There are plenty of podcasts where I'm sitting with my dog Ryder at the park. We're in the grass. Sometimes I spend up to two hours because it has become so enjoyable. And I do have a podcast in my ears. I mean, some would say like you should be meditating, but I'm listening to a deep conversation, even if it's to other people. And I find it so soothing, probably like you said, because even the ingredients that went into that conversation that I'm parasocially attaching myself to, you know, vicariously in the room. They weren't rushed. We don't come to a recording like this and go, okay, how fast can we get the most info about the book, about the research? That's not the point. And I totally agree with you. So much of the productivity literature and is about efficiency and squeezing, squeezing more and more juice out of the same lemon. And I feel that creates just as much stress of like am I squeezing hard enough? And is am I getting enough out of it versus this more expansive looking at what the quality activities and the happiest activities are, looking at the ingredients as you've so helpfully teased a part of what makes us least happy. And there's one more thing I want to get to before we have to wrap up our friend K. I say our friend because maybe one day it'll be his friend too. He did a lot of writing about happier hour. When it came out, he asked this question. You talk about buying better time through delegation and that's a common theme here on Free Time as well, that it's ultimately hard to have a spacious sense of time if we're doing everything at home and work. And sure enough, I actually find a lot of household tasks to be much more draining and less happy than the stuff I do at work, which kind of flexes my brain in different ways. Kay's question is, is there a sweet spot in terms of how much you could outsource or delegate in a given day? He said, I recall hearing a study that it's 4ish hours because you can't outsource things like sleep, fitness, hanging out with friends and family, learning. And I think sometimes delegation also gets swept up in this like delegate absolutely everything you know you shouldn't be doing anything. That's not your precise zone of genius. I don't know. But sometimes washing the dishes again, probably my part while listening to a podcast. But there are certain things that are chop wood, carry water variety that might still bring us happiness that we don't have to delegate into oblivion. So I'm just curious. Go wherever you want with that. That's coming from K.

Well, thank you, Kay. It's interesting. I am not aware of. So Ashley Williams is a researcher who does a lot of this work that's identified the like that people who do spend money on time saving services report being happier. And the mechanism is so clear. Right. It is understanding that our time is absolutely a more critical resource than money and for all the reasons that you say in your work, Jenny. And so it is Worth spending money to free up time so that you are not spending on these activities that feel really chore, like they feel like an obligation and you're just trying to get through it so that you can free up time to spend in these more fulfilling, perhaps socially connecting ways. Actually, they showed in their research that couples who spend on time saving services report greater relationship satisfaction. And that makes sense, right? Because if you're not spending your evenings doing the chores and instead, you know, like, if you're going to the grocery store and then like slaving over the stove and then by the time you sort of get food on the table and then you have to clean it all up, that is time away from you actually sitting at the table with your partner or with your family having like that real connection in terms of quantity of how much to outsource versus not. I can't speak to that. What I would say is in my work from time tracking, so I encourage people to actually track their time over the course of a week, saying what they're doing as well as how they feel coming out of that activity so that they can identify, we can identify for ourselves what are our ways of spending that are the happiest. What are those ways of spending that are not happy at all. And not all chores are experienced similarly by everyone. Some people really love cooking. I hate cooking. So for me, spending money on a meal service is absolutely worth the money. But the thing that I am fine doing, I'm like actually trying to think of chore that I actually enjoy, which is I don't know, I will come.

Totally. Wait, which meal service do you use, by the way? I tested at least 10. I'm curious which one you're using.

We are currently using thistle and gobble, but I've just heard about another one. But I think the bigger point is reducing the guilt that people have associated with, like, if I can do it, then I should do it. And I know you talk a lot about that, so I don't need to repeat that, that that's not the appropriate thing. And not just thinking about a day, but actually thinking about your week overall. How can you spend and allocate and sort of design your hours and piecing activities together so that overall the good stuff is having the biggest impact possible and that the bad stuff or the stuff that are obligations that you do have to do that you can't outsource, how can you minimize the negative effect of them? Like even bundling, which is something that you are sort of mentioning. Like, sure, if I can't outsource a particular chore. I have to do it well. If I listen to a podcast while doing it, then all of a sudden it's more fun. Actually, one of my readers, she reached out and she's like, one of my favorite strategies that you shared in the book is this bundling strategy where you take something that is not fun and then you bundle it with something that is fun. So all of a sudden that time feels more fun. She loves it so much because her husband bundled ironing with watching sports on tv. So every Saturday, he would set up the ironing board in front of the TV and turn on sports. And then irony became his favorite activity because it was like his time to watch sports.

I am all about the bundle. Speaking of which, I feel like bundling. You can develop a Pavlovian reprogramming. So you and I talked about dry bar before we hit record because of one of my rants on the podcast. And we both came. We happened to have wet hair in a braid today, so we're matching. But I really get stressed about email. It's in my least joyful activities, no matter what I've tried, no matter what tools, what systems, doesn't matter. Anyway, when I was at drybar, I would have either coffee or a glass of champagne and I would make myself answer email. So I'm sitting there getting pampered. I also got to answer email while I'm sitting in the chair. And I started to develop this thing where I smell the drybar smell. And then I think it must be time to do email now. It's the weirdest thing, but it worked. It worked. This was back when I needed blowouts pre pandemic.

That's actually helpful because email is my source of unhappiness, too. And I haven't figured out how to bundle it because then when I try to, like, I can't listen to a podcast while also emailing or else I can't concentrate on anything.

Every now and then I'll be on a flight and I can bundle it with a flight. I have found I need to have a really awesome music playlist. And then I do it once a week, ideally to a great playlist or in a really joyful location like Soho House in New York City. I'm starting to give myself the Pavlovian thing where, oh, I sit in a nice comfy seat and I order an oat latte and I get to read for a little bit and then I open my computer and I do at least an hour of Email. And Soho House has very particular smells with their hand soap and their lotion. So the cowshed products is very unique to them. But the point is I take myself out of the house. I go to a really joyful spot. I like ramp my mind of my mood into it, but it's starting to be where the smell a little bit mixes to say, okay, you know, almost like I'm like a child or a pet or something.

Like going to the vet, you know, where you're like, oh, let me give you treats. It's going to be okay then. That's working for me.

I think you're not gonna be ruining your Soho House membership or whatever by.

I don't think so. I think it makes me feel good. I'm like kind of getting.

You're like doing it. Yeah, yeah.

And then I'm kind of a little bit not getting my money's worth. That's a bad way to put it. I moved really far away from it, so I don't go very often. I joked during one of the pandemic years before they told us we could put on hold, I had a 1500 dollars coffee because I only went twice that year. Like, yeah, it better be a productive business meeting, you know.

Anyway, I digress. I appreciate what you're saying about bundling and listeners. We want to hear from you. I always love when people call in or like write in and I try to solicit people to share my favorite time saving system so I can air it back out on the podcast for other free timers. But this would be really fun if you have a favorite random bundle that you do to make your least happy activities just a tiny bit happier. Let us know. You can email hitime.com okay, Kassy, the last question. If you could give people a permission slip to do something differently or drop something all together, what would it be?

I would just say to prioritize one's own personal happiness. And this is something that I've just observed that people have a really hard time doing because of the time poverty. Right? So we're always rushing and the things that get our priority are the people around us. And sometimes that is in the work context too, as opposed to ourselves. But with research pointing to that when we personally feel happier, it makes us show up better for those around us. Research shows that when we feel happier, it makes us nicer. We're more likely to do and say nice things to other people. When we feel happier, we are more creative, adaptive in our problem solving, more motivated. So it also will help our colleagues and the teams that we're on all to say that happiness might be sort of frivolous or selfish. It's absolutely not true. And so my permission slip is to do something to spend your time in a way that makes you feel joyful, and then that will allow you to spread joy more effectively.

So beautifully said. We both have confetti, coincidentally, on our book cover, and I feel that we both share that value of joy and just the celebration that time will speak. Spent can be. Cassie, this has been such a delight. Thank you so much for being here. Thank you for spending your free time with us. And where can people find you if they want to keep in touch?

This has been so fun and I appreciate your friends texting to say that we needed to talk because of course we did.

So where can you find me? I mean, on my website. I'm not on social media other than LinkedIn, so Cassidy either.

Amazing. Hi Fi.

Again with our sort of appreciation of time, but my website, cassiumholmes.com and that is where my academic work is up and then where I am and the information about Happier Hour, which I worked so hard to sort of pull so much of my research and these insights together. So that's actually maybe the best answer.

Oh, yeah, definitely. Get your copy of Happy Hour if you don't already have it. I have to say you did a really epic podcast tour and I saw so much incredible media that you did. So congratulations on the launch and I'm guessing a lot of listeners have hopefully already gotten their copy, but if not, it is truly fantastic. And I already can't wait for your next book. When people would say that to me, I'm like, oh, my gosh, I'm so tired. There's no way it'll be five years from now. But it's true. It's true. Every now and then it's like, oh, yeah. I just know whatever you come up with next will be great. So thank you so much, Cassie.

Thanks so much.

If you've listened this far, you get a gold star. Thank you. Word of mouth is the most joyful way we can grow this show, and it helps us land interviews with the luminaries and insightful guests that you would most love to hear from. Please send this episode to a friend who might find it helpful. And for show notes and related links from this episode, visit itsfreetime.com while you're there, make sure you're subscribed to the Time well Spent newsletter. You'll get instant access to my tech toolkit a continually updated list of all the software I use, along with the total monthly spend. To run my business where no one works full time Even me, visit itsfreetime.com join Remember, you are running the show. It's time for radical reimagining and everything is up for grabs. Let it be easy, let it be fun, and build with love.

The Uniswap Wallet makes crypto easier and safer to own and use. Discover new tokens, research confidently, swap instantly, and manage it all securely in one place. The Uniswap trading protocol has powered over $3 trillion in volume, and it's trusted by millions worldwide. Buy your first crypto assets in a few taps and experience the freedom of decentralized finance with Uniswap. Tap the banner to get started.