199: In Brilliant Conversation with Steve Morris

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What's next? This is a question we're all having to ask and answer more frequently. I'm Jenny Blake, your host of the Pivot Podcast and author of the Only Move that Matters is your next one.

For show notes from this episode, visit pivotmethod.com podcast. If change is the only constant, then let's get better at it. Here we go.

Welcome back everybody. I am so excited to have Steve Morris back on the show. We last spoke with Steve in episode 173 on beautiful questions for Challenging Times. Steve is on a mission to help organizations and their leaders rise to their potential to live and work wholeheartedly while making a positive impact on the world. He's working on a book called the Beautiful an actionable manifesto to evolve your business, brand and culture and we're taking a page today out of CTI's book. CTI is the Coactive Training Institute. It's where I went through coach training in 2008. They recently did a free session that I'll put in the show Notes on Brilliant Conversations. So I invited Steve. I thought who would I want to have a brilliant conversation with? And I'll explain what that is in a minute. Steven Morris So Steve, welcome back to the show.

Thank you so much Jenny. So thrilled to be here. Have another deep conversation and let's see where this goes today.

Yeah, I was happy to get the feedback we did on the Beautiful Questions episode. Several people said it was so helpful it was exactly what they needed. Lots of great reflection. The be the Brilliant conversation again from cti. I'll share with you a couple of the parameters or frame of reference that they shared on their free call that a brilliant conversation is larger than how we hold a regular one. It's intentional. There's no answer, no destination, no problem to solve. Rather an orientation. It's a allowing a conversation to expand, to explore, to be playful and welcoming. Contributions from ideas, emotions, intuitive hits, spirit or strategy that everything around us, everything within us can be a resource and part of our contribution. So they can be totally nonsensical. They don't have a certain direction or outcome, but rather it's calling on our brilliant mind or collective consciousness. So it's organic flowing light. And they even say you'll leave with more questions than you had when you came as you tap into a larger mystery and unfolding that's playing out around you. So that's the brilliant. Isn't it great? Isn't it?

So good. I love it. Yeah, yeah. And so Jenny, this is new for me. If I end up bending or breaking the rules, you just guide me back in, so.

Well, me too. But the whole point is there's no rules.

That's the whole point. Well, and I said to Steve, before we hit record, I said, last thing before we start our brilliant non directional, who knows where it's going to take us? No show notes, no pre prepared questions. I said to Steve, I'll speak for myself and say I'm peak pandemic out. Like there's been so much content now on how do we interpret the pandemic and how do we deal with crisis. And it's important. I'm not making too much light of it, but I am making light of just the fatigue that's starting to set in of talking about it. And I think I said it with Dr. Michael J. Consuelos on a recent conversation that it's like we keep staring at the elephant, talking about the elephant and not just riding the elephant and seeing where it's taking us. So maybe we could just start there and also to let listeners, to let you know, our intention is also that this sort of takes us beyond whatever the current conversation has been.

Yeah.

Your inclination and your intuition or even your sense of where you're seeing, where people are, or at least where you are is very much aligned to what I'm beginning to see in the world. I feel like now there's this beginning or groundswell of hunger to not just focus on the pandemic and all the crises that surround that. And not that we would ignore those things, but really to, to ride the elephant. I love that metaphor, which is to like, you know, take agency over your life, take control over the things you have control over and move into the things that you want to create based on whatever we've experienced here. And this moving forward is also just this beautiful invitation to tether the both. And you know, I've been thinking a lot about paradox these days. And the paradox is the idea where, you know, it's the ability to hold multiple truths or multiple reactions, realities together at the same time. And it's Also the chance to form a new truth and a new reality from it. And while I haven't heard that directly spoken from a public perspective, I feel like people are holding the both and which is, yes, we're still in the crisis, yes, the economy is what it is and there's jobs in jeopardy. And we don't know really, even from a vocational standpoint, what's next or what we're going to be doing next week or next month or next year. But they wanting to create anew and there's just a lot of innovation or a lot of innovation thinking and a lot of innovation talking that I'm hearing about. And therefore there's this hunger to like, let's start rolling up our sleeves, let's start going back into the world. Or at least there's a hunger to go back into the world, however we define that and move into that what's next?

I also think there's an element of acceptance that by accepting what's here, like, I don't know that my income has changed since the last time we spoke, but there's a certain acceptance that I feel and therefore I'm not worried. And so I wonder if in order to look at what's next, there's some amount of acceptance. Because without the acceptance, maybe that is the mode of analyzing the news and saying, what's happening, what's happening. Let me, let me try to stare right at this thing and try to understand it. And for me, the more that I've accepted it, in a way, I love what you're saying about creativity and innovation and starting to understand the transformation. And I also feel, to talk about paradox, I also feel a slight resistance to what's next because I'm like, I'm not ready yet. I'm loving this cocooned state where my whole work world has been turned upside down. And I'm so curious about what I'm going to want to say yes and no to on the other side. And I actually feel like, no, no, I'm not ready for the whole world to come back yet. And I don't say that to be selfish. Like, of course I want everyone to have their jobs and their health. So I don't mean this in the practical nuts and bolts sense, but I mean it in terms of just this reflective cocoon, if you will.

Yeah, yeah. You use the word acceptance. And if we want to heighten the intent of that word, we could insert the word surrender. And part of it is from a creative process, surrendering, where the intuition wants to take itself or where our calling wants to take itself. And it sounds like for you, Jenny, and I hear a lot of other people saying this too, is that we're not really ready to go back into sitting in rush hour traffic and commuting an hour and a half each way to work and.

Having distance from the family that we've sequestered ourselves off into. And even the creative time that we've kind of have been gifted with to go into our both intuitive side and our creative side. And I think there is a surrendering into, or there's an opportunity to surrender into the continued discipline of leaning into that part of our world because it is incredibly creative. And I, and I actually do think it's a little bit too early to say, well, I'm going to create this thing next. This is exactly what the world needs. I was on a, what was called a town hall zoom conversation yesterday with people from around the globe. There was about 30 or 40 kind of high end business professionals, everybody from investors to CEOs and strategists and things like that. And one of the things that they were talking about, which is what does the future actually look like? And we don't really know yet. McKinsey can do all their studies about what they think the future is going to be from an economic standpoint, but there's new ways of working and therefore potentially new technologies that are emerging that we can lean into during this time. And sometimes, perhaps even the technology of our own imagination, which is always there with us, is one of the most vital things that we can tap into at this point.

Ooh, the technology of our imagination. That is so cool. That is so cool. I agree. As soon as you said it feels too soon to know exactly what's next or even be creating the solution. Capital T, Capital S. I agree completely. I feel this deep urge to keep listening and observing. And I'm observing with such fascination. And just today, in fact, before jumping on this podcast recording, I was speaking with Penny Pierce, who's been a longtime frequent guest of the show. And she was like, don't you think it's time for you to write another book? And I told her, I don't know, you know, and we just talked about the process of sticking your antenna up and saying, what is it that I want to attune my, my little antenna to of observing in the world? And that that's actually the first step is what are you tuned into? And then what do you think about that? We were even talking, you and I, Steve, before we hit record, how Valuable it is to get someone like your take on what's happening. So it's not just reporting the news but saying, and here's how I think about it, how I'm approaching it with all included uncertainties and that that lens is unique to each of us. But of course it can be hard to see it when it's us.

Yeah, yeah. The poet William Stafford, there's a quote I'm going to try and remember it. It goes something like when you find you have a response to something and really what he's talking about in that is when you find your intuition rising to the surface, he says trust it and that it has meaning. And the instructive element of that is to.

We get so caught up in, especially in the business world, the power of data. And we think that there's a lot of people in companies that bow to the altar of that. And I'm not an anti data person, but I also don't think that data really created anything. But if we were to hold two opposing truths, potentially going back into the paradox idea, one of which is what is the data telling us, the outward evidence of the things that has happened in the past and that we can measure and what is our gut or our heart telling us about what might be the right thing to create next or the right thing to even begin to experiment, to create next. Before this call, Jenny, you and I were having a conversation about whether or not I should even do a podcast, right? And so that's a creative question for myself. What does that actually mean for me? What's the benefits? What's the creative application for that? For my business, for the people that listen to me or read my thought leadership and things of that nature. And I think the gut, the heart, the intuitive side can be such a teacher in these particular realms. And I think part of maybe what you're talking about, Jenny, and what other people also sort of have a little bit of an allergy against is to turn the world on back too fast or too quickly where we have, you know, it takes what, 60 days or something like that to form new habits. It just so happens that, you know, here we are, are in sort of 40 something days of being sequestered and new habits are being informed. And you know, I think a lot of heart listening, a lot of self reflection, a lot of questions that have to do with what matters to me most now or what's really important to my life. Those things I sure hope we don't get away from.

I am so with you. I love the Notion of heart listening. And so much to say in response to what you just said. But one thing when you were talking earlier, we were talking about not quite being ready to have the answer or to create what's next. And you reminded me as well when you said the technology of intuition. Intuition itself, it strikes me, is a creative process. So by tuning in and saying, what am I noticing? What is not just the data telling me, but my gut, my heart, the heart, intelligence. It's like that is in itself creative, but it doesn't look like it is to the outside world. So you're still creating your antenna are up, you're creating ideas, you're creating connections, your synapses are firing, you're cre. You're creating what Penny would say any the kind of your inner architecture just before it's expressed into the future. And on that note, Steve, it reminded me when you were asking, should you start a podcast? I'm really curious what your gut would say. But don't you think on some level the fact that you're asking, should I start a podcast? Means you're being called to start a podcast?

Absolutely, yeah. You've heard me talk about curiosity, right? And the power of curiosity, right? Curiosity is a guidance system that is really kind of one of the force formulations, the first more rational formulations that come out of the imaginative and the intuitive world. And what tends to happen, at least with myself and I know a lot of other innovative and creative thinkers too, is that we lean into things that where we begin to feel in. In particular directions or feel curious about particular things, and then our rational, strategic mind begins to form them in the shape of a question. And we have to be very careful about how we formulate those questions and what those. Because the better the question, the better the results. And there's a saying that I use will be in my new book, which is every great quest starts with a question. And the better the quest, the better the question. The better the question, the better the quest. And so you're absolutely right. The fact that these questions are beginning to rise to me, such as should I start some type of audio podcast or video podcast or some type of different media outlet that expands on the thought leadership that I already put out into the world, it is definitely an invitation. And you could break that down into a beautiful linear process that anyone could follow for the questions that they're asking themselves, and our consciousness might actually see it first as a question. But if you were to backtrace and look underneath the hood, so to speak, of where that question comes from, it likely came from a deep, intuitive part to yourself.

Absolutely. And looking at the synchronicities and coincidences. So is it. I just finished scheduling the episode titled should you'd start a podcast. And then Steve and I are recording this today on Thursday. That episode comes out tomorrow. So less than 12 hours. And I just laughed at the timing because in a way, you came to our conversation, you didn't know that's what I had just scheduled for tomorrow. But boom, there it answered so quickly. And I know you even wrote to your newsletter on the theme of testing. So slightly different, but how we're being tested during this time and also what signals to be looking for. So how do we know when we're being tested? And how do we know when something is synchronous in that way? And oh, the last thing to add, I think if you're listening to this and you vote that yes, Steve should start a podcast, go just go to Matterco Co. And I don't know, Steve, if you have a contact form, but I think people should just send you a yes. Maybe you won't even reply, but just randomly, you're gonna get like a random yes message every other day until you decide to go for it.

I love it. Yeah, well, thanks for that. I love it. So I wrote this piece about being tested. And the premise of the piece was really about these times that we're in right now and everyone's being tested. Might be little things like our patience is being tested, but really the point of the piece, or at least part of the point of the piece, was your character or our character is being tested. And it's when we really show up and when we are kind of forced to show up wholeheartedly with our whole body, our somatic self, every part of our being, our strategic mind, our body, our soul, our intuition, all the background and experience that we have when we're called into those things. Those are typically the most poignant things that define what's important to our character or really what our character is. Because I do so much work around brand, one of the ways that I define brand, or really at its essence, I believe that brand is character and character is brand. So when we're tested, it's those very poignant juncture points where we have to apply our most deeply held beliefs, the things that matter most to us, and overlay them into the situations and form questions that have to do with. Sometimes they're very simple yes, no type questions like should I or should I not do a Podcast or should I or should I not take this new job because of the way the economy is, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. But it's really, really the character of self. Leadership is what defines you. And I wrote something in there that when I wrote it, it actually surprised me. I don't know if you ever find yourself when you write something you're like. I find writing is thinking. And here's what I wrote down, is that you will thrive not in spite of your challenges, but because of them. And your character, or how your character arises to the occasion is what defines how you respond to those particular challenges. So be grateful for your challenges as they shape the brand that you will stand up the test of time. Your character is your brand.

Ooh, so good. You know, I've always said that about breakups, that I learned the most about the people that I've dated by how they are during and after the breakup. And I. It's interesting because that in a way maps to this business conversation. But that's where I get the most respect or not for the other person and myself. Because it's really easy when times are good, to be kind and generous and respectful. And the question is, for me, the reason a breakup is so powerful is because it might be one sided. It might be there might be a lot of anger involved or sadness or all these super heavy emotions. And can you, can you end on a high note? And maybe that's too high an expectation. Certainly there are situations where you need to just cut off communication cold. But barring that, I feel like respectful endings is so important. But what that really speaks to is your point about challenge. That it's the challenge because to me, I guess, in terms of my evolving friendships or relationships, how am I going to be angry at somebody just because they don't want me to be their girlfriend anymore? Of course I've been there. I've been angry, I've been sad, I've been everything. But I still have respect for that person and I would hope they would have respect for me. So many people I've been able to stay friends with because no hard feelings once you can get through that window of time where maybe you don't speak. And it's how I handle those challenges and how they do that actually create the foundation for whatever friendship or relationship comes next. And I think that's what you're saying about this time too, that for companies, I just love that, that it's the challenge that creates your character and builds the trust. And I was just Reading Today a publisher sent me a book on Samsung and I'm thinking, I don't want to read about Samsung. I thought it was just going to be this kind of like a new type of advertising that someone writes a book about the company. It's quite the opposite. It actually starts with talking about the exploding gallery. What is it? The gallery? Gallery 7.

Galaxy.

Galaxy. There it is, see? Okay. You could tell I'm not Samsung.

But anyway, it talks about how customers lost so much faith in how they handled that.

They were very opaque during that, when that was going down and didn't recall the phones very quickly. And so I do think it's interesting to look at how companies handle challenges and how do you do that out loud, which everyone is kind of being asked to do right now.

Yeah. And that same line of thinking can be pointed inward and should be, because it all comes from that. So the question that I have in my mind, and I'm gonna ask you this, but it's really sort of an instigator for taking this conversation in a different direction. Have you ever broken up with yourself? And what was your reaction?

Oh, my goodness, my mind just got blown.

Right.

I love how you're like shifting the conversation too.

I know. There's a poem.

That you and I both love. I heard you talking about it on one of your podcasts, which is by Derek Walcott called Love After Love. And. And it's a poem that I have held very, very close to me. And it's all about really, self discovery and self love if we can find it. And it really took me years and years and years and years to get intimately familiar with understanding what that poem was all about. And maybe it's a good time to share it. You feel that it's okay to do that?

Of course. Yeah. Please do. I think I have to give credit to Oprah and Petra for where I would have mentioned that.

Yeah, yeah, I heard that. We were saying that. Oprah, somebody wrote it on stage. And. Yeah. So. Love After Love by Derek Walcott. The time will come when with elation, you'll greet yourself, arriving at your own door in your own mirror. And each will smile at the other's welcome and say, sit here, eat. You will love again. The stranger who was yourself. Give wine, give bread, give back your heart to itself, to the stranger who has loved you all your life, whom you've ignored for another and who knows you by heart. Take down the love letters from the bookshelf, the photographs and the desperate notes. Peel your own image from the Mirror, sit and feast on your life.

The thing that crept up on me in this particular poem, which took me years to even notice it, Jenny, was in the beginning lines, it talks about the time will come when. With elation. And then further, it says, and each will smile at the other's welcome.

When we begin to understand who the heck we are and really love ourselves or attempt to love ourselves for who we truly are, we will do that, I believe, with elation, not with the grinded out hard work of I'm going to love myself and I'm going to peel off all the shit that belongs or doesn't belong in my world or whatever. It is really a relationship of elationship and when. So back to my question.

When we break up with ourselves, which I'm not sure if people actually call it that, we peel off an old version of ourself and we evolve into whatever is next. And I think. I think we're constantly doing that. We're constantly evolving or we're constantly pivoting as human beings. And it does sometimes take a little bit of a breakup with the old version of who we thought we were before that might actually be too small for who we think we are going to be coming into. And to put that on a shelf, if you will, and to step aside from that. And only by doing that can we try on the new suit, try on the new personality, evolve to what's next, and really then go into new parts of our own imaginative self and to create that new self moving forward.

Yes, this is. I've been long fascinated by the metaphor of a snake shedding its skin. I think it was one of my very first embarrassing YouTube videos back when I was blogging that there's this time where we feel like we have no skin. And that to me, whether you call it a breakup, shedding, you said it. Peeling off a layer. Even the whole notion of pivoting is. Is precipitated on saying no to something or getting pivoted, losing something, where something goes. And the new you is not yet here back to Rilke. You don't yet know what it is. And that question of have you ever broken up with yourself? It's so powerful. And it depends how we define breakup, because.

I was just talking to a friend this week of it's not a breakup, it's a breakthrough. And I've heard that over the years as well. But there is often this breaking up of some old structure of our life or our identity and dissolving, like the cocoon and the butterfly There's a dissolution that the caterpillar has to experience. Penny and I talk about the goo state, the liminal state, this time in between. And isn't that what so much of a breakup in the relationship sense is with another is also you're sort of grieving what you think you've lost and the future that you thought you had. And it requires this total presence with what is and then what could be anew with this new.

This, this new possibility. And it does seem like in a way this is life. Like this is what it means to be human, that we are natural beings, just like the snake. Just because you can't see us shedding our skin. And I think that's what can be so painful sometimes about the grieving process is that that unless someone's looking at puffy eyes, they can't see that you're going through such massive transformation. And especially when we feel that we have to keep showing up every day in the same way. Like I remember trying to go to work in an office when I was going through a breakup. And it's like, how are you supposed to do that? It's just this like record scratch moment of life to try. And then of course some would say, well, oh no, it's helpful. You gotta get back into your day, gotta get back into your routines. You can't just groom, even be sad all day, you'll go crazy. But there is this such, like such intensity and there could be such beauty and such aliveness in.

The loss, but also the reconnection. And that's what I love about the love after love poem that you read. Thank you for reading that. Reconnecting and then emerging into this new relationship with ourself and also to go full circle back to surrender. It's like, isn't the work to just always drop whoever we think we are and keep surrendering to what is? Like, what's the point of. In a way, it's like, I think it's a daily practice of letting go of whoever we think we are. Unless it's for me, unless it's a true soul calling. I feel a soul calling to be a messenger, a teacher, a helper. These are sort of soul qualities that I do think are going to be with me for life and learner. To live is to love. These are some of my soul orienting activities. And beyond that, who knows?

How can we say, yeah, yeah, the other attribute of surrender or the other way to point that is to point it inward again. And I think a lot of the work of the individual, the human who is looking to awaken or evolve into the best version of themselves is it's both a path of surrender and a path of remember. And I think sometimes, at least I experience that I'm trying to peel away the things that are not authentically me and get into the truest corest essence of the life that I was given and the gifts that I was given and then turn them around as an offering to the world. But what I have found is that you have to actually clear out a lot of other stuff. And that could include, you know, your upbringing or the expectations of society or who you thought you should be as a 20 year old that you're still carrying around with you, or who you thought your parents thought you should be and you know, setting those things down along the side of the trail, so to speak, as if they're big rocks that you've been carrying through life and clearing away the most authentic, truest version of yourself. And to me sometimes that feels more like surrender. Like surrender to all the other stuff and the other external outward expectations of people, of people think I should be and just be who I truly am. And I think this poem by Derek Walcott talks a little bit to that where this invitation to feast in your life is about the meeting of your true authentic self. And that's not a one time occurrence, that's an ongoing creative surrender filled exploration. And I find it to be one of the most difficult but also one of the most beautiful things. And it takes a little bit, maybe even a lot of slowing and quieting the mind and tuning into, you know, because we all have these voices in our head, right? And so we carry around these voices of judgment that come from wherever they come from. We also carry around these voices of massive and beautiful wisdom. And then we also carry around this truest voice. And the more that we can really tap into the voices that are in our head and listen more intently and give attention more intently to the ones that matter most to us, the more that the can be a guidance system for how we go about living life, doing work and showing up as a true, fierce and vulnerable human being.

One of the things I find fascinating are the assumptions and stories that we tell and that we have as filters on our worldview that are in fact just that. So it's almost things that we perceive as immutable facts or, or truths. But it's a lowercase T because it's not a. I call it capital T. Truth is like really that inner voice that you just described that Truest voice. And whether I'm observing it in myself or in clients or companies, I find it fascinating to look at. What are people telling them? What are people telling themselves that they think is a fact that's actually a story, an attachment, A should, an expectation. And all we need to do is just lift the lens. It's the lens in front of the glass. There's this filter. Work is hard. If I want to make a lot of money, I need to work harder or I need to work around the clock or all the assumptions that are being tested right now with shelter at home, we all have to go into an office. We have to be in the office for 40 to 50 hours a week. Whatever the assumption. I need XYZ stuff to be happy. Shopping makes me happy. You know, maybe some people are shopping more, you're just shopping online, but for a lot of people, we're shopping a lot less because, A, it doesn't seem smart to spend the money right now, and then B, we're not going anywhere. And then C, it's, you realize, oh, actually, maybe I don't need all that stuff. So I think one of the most powerful things we can do is embedded in something you said, Steve, which is question expectations and question any fact of our life that seems so true. It seems like it's an immovable fact about how we are meant to live or work that we can't even question. And one very power thing that I see happening now for so many people is this revelation of, oh, how interesting. I had no clue what it would be like to drop certain assumptions about how and where and when I had to work. And with all due caveats, that some people are at home with two young children, like, losing their minds, trying to homeschool while working full time. I totally understand that not everyone's going to have that experience in that one channel, but I wonder. But those who I speak with that do have young kids that are trying to work full time are saying, I've never been around my child this much every day. What a gift. What an interesting thing. Whether you keep it that way or not. It is so fascinating to just see these. The Rubik's Cube of our existence just kind of get, like, pivoted and twisted around. Click, click, click, click. And every week there's a different click based on whatever's happening in the government and society and what state you live in or country. And then we're making our own inner clicks. Click, click, click. And then we're making these clicks with our friends and our Family and people over Zoom. It's just the. The whole thing is just square by square getting shifted around. I just think it's so fascinating to be in the middle of that and experiencing it.

Yeah. Yeah. One of the things that I've heard a fair bit about with a few of the companies that I work with from a cultural perspective, is to your point, about the working moms who are now at home with two kids, still trying to be utterly present for their children and also be incredibly productive at work. And so they're tasked with homeschooling, with entertaining the kids, but also being on a Zoom call and trying to manage the world so there's no background noise and no kids running around or music playing or whatever it is. And in suburban life, those people who are raising kids, and we know some of these ways of being with the suburban world, is that the perception of. Or the desire and perhaps even drive to perfect parenthood? It feels like that's taking a back burner to something that is a little bit more, or maybe a lot more authentic, which is, hey, let's be real, let's be present, and let's do our best instead of propping little Johnny up to be the star student at whatever the school is, because those little bumper stickers are not going to be relevant for the next few months.

And how then does the role, or even the perceived role around parenthood or even great relationship mean in a time when we're so forced to face, because of our confinement, all the things that we're working with in our sequestered life? And I think one of the things that I'm hearing from parents is they're dropping the need to be seen as perfect from a parenthood standpoint or even perfect from an employee standpoint point and go into, you know what? Maybe enough is enough and. Or good enough is enough. Maybe what I'm doing is really exceptional and just what I should be doing.

Well, even on a. On a smaller, more superficial level, the dropping perfectionism around personal grooming. So how many jokes have people made like, oh, no, I can't dye my hair. I can't cut my hair. Like, even the men I know are seeing guys on dog walks. Some of them are just shaving their head, or women can't have all their grooming appointments, whether it's mani, petty, wax, whatever. And it's like. And then. And then, of course, I said this in a momentum call the other day, that I'm putting less and less makeup. Like, I already had been doing that for a couple Years, just downshifting. That's thanks to Michael, my husband. But especially now, I don't put on anything. Not even a dash of mascara, since the whole shelter at home thing started, because why? And then, go figure, today in the newspaper, they did write an article, and someone had said, I cannot fathom the need to paint my face every day with all these colors. And it's like, when you put it that way, and I think for a lot of women, it does feel a little bit like it's kind of this patriarchal thing of, like, trying to just paint ourselves to look a certain way, that men don't really have to do it the exact same way. Even if you have some personal grooming practice, I don't think it's nearly the level that women feel the pressure to take it to. And so dropping the perfectionism around how we look like, I wonder if on day one of the pandemic, everyone was wearing, like, their nicest shirts to make it look from the waist up. I wonder what they're wearing now. I wonder what CEOs are wearing a hoodie or a T shirt, because why are you gonna act like you wear a.

Suit jacket when you're sitting in your living room? Of course you're not gonna do that. That. It just doesn't make sense. So it's like, I think this idea of dropping perfectionism and these permissions to be more authentic and be who you are, they're happening at every level across this thing.

Yeah. Yeah. I actually heard a converse story of that where a CEO was doing a team.

Kind of talk, and he showed up on camera in a tuxedo. And I just love the fact that he was like. And it was a playful thing. It was like, you know, I'm gonna overdress for this zoom presentation thing that I was doing. And the team just loved it. They just utterly loved it. I am seeing something that's really interesting related to what you're talking about, which is the truth that.

So it's almost like a new mantra that I'm beginning to form and maybe test is that zoom doesn't lie. And. And the beautiful thing about our ability to have face time with other people and the cadence that we're getting into when it comes to a lot of the online meetings that we're doing is that the first thing that typically is asked is, hey, how's everyone doing? Let's just do a quick check in. And you can actually read in people's faces and their body language, even through zoom, really, how they're doing, they might say I'm doing great. But if they're fidgeting in their chair or if they're distracted or you can see stress in their eyes.

Then you really know the truth of that. And so it's kind of calling a different level of presence or noticing of leaning into the video camera to understand what that truth is all about. And I love the fact that we're not having to pose for ourselves as much or prop ourselves up. Even with your points about dress and makeup and that kind of thing. I know for me I dress fairly business casual anyhow, but I do find, I tend to find that I'll put on a button up shirt if I'm doing like a, you know, a big webinar and people are going to see me on camera or if I'm holding a whiteboard session with a client and there's a whole bunch of people there. But right now, today I'm in a T shirt. Now we're not on video right now, but I'm in a T shirt and the weather's perfect and I'll throw shorts on later and that'll be what it is. I do think, I think there's this beautiful permission.

Yeah. And I do think if you're presenting, presenting, it's the sign of respect as well. Like you don't want to be distracting, be so casual. It's distracting if you're the, the person presenting or in front of the room. I think I've shared it on this podcast, but when I just started, first started at Google, we used to call it the F dot and we would know if it was somebody's first day of welcoming a new training class because we'd have them for a week or three weeks at a time. And the F dot was the first day of training outfit. So you always knew when someone was starting a new cohort because they were wearing an F dot. They were wearing like the nice clothes that they have to start the training off on the right foot and make a good impression. And I think there's something to be said for that that you, you definitely. Yeah.

First date apparel. First date apparel.

Totally.

Totally. Well, downhill from there. Yeah. Wait till you see me in my sweats kind of thing.

But then isn't it So I used to, back in the good old days when I was in college, I used to love if I met somebody at the gym because. And disgusting. And I knew I didn't have makeup on and I just thought that's ideal because by the time we go out for a first Date, it's only going up from here, you know.

Well, that goes into the. You know, we humans, one of our deepest desires is to want to be seen and appreciated for who we truly are. And if we feel like we have to prop ourselves up or manage a particular perception or curate a particular image, it takes just a lot of energy to do that. And there's also a little bit of falsehood that that comes forward with that, and that by working so hard to manage that perception or curate the image, are we really not then giving ourselves permission to be seen and truly appreciated for that true, authentic self? And again, this is part of why I think character is so important, because in these times that we're being tested, and so much of us are being tested in so many different ways right now, our true, authentic character is showing through. And we're seeing this in the way companies are showing up, both good, bad, and ugly. And we're seeing this in the way certain leaders are showing up to hold and orchestrate meetings and actually be there with a deeper level of presence than if we weren't in crisis. And I actually love that. I love. It's a little bit of a Harry Potter sorting hat of character.

It's interesting that you say that. Yeah, I know what you mean. I'm curious if you could even share quickly the difference of the sorting hat. Maybe there's four different types of responses. I don't know. Could be two or three. I'm curious what you've seen, because for me, when I look out at at least the big companies that communicate in my inbox, they all sort of sound the same. And in fact, I find the whole thing so monotonous. Like, I know they're speaking from the heart and I know they're doing their best, but it's just every email, literally, it just sounds exactly the same. And. And then recently, I saw a founder sort of ranting about not getting PPP funds, and it's not fair. And this person made such great points, but the tone that I was left with was like, ugh. I don't think that. I don't think that's inspiring for your customers to just rant about that, but it's fair that they did. And there are a lot of structural problems with how that's been unveiled. So I don't want to discourage anyone from advocating for what is right for those smaller companies that didn't just kind of get bumped up in line like the big ones. But nonetheless, from a CEO communication standpoint, I thought it's not really A good look. But in their mind they might have thought, oh, I'm being so authentic right now.

Yeah, I think there's two sides to begin to look at that or two ways. Two lenses that I look at that. One of which is the exterior marketing communication side of things. And I completely agree, Jenny. Like, I'm just completely over the couple few messages or the couple few. Same notes that we hear. We're here for you. We're still in business. We care about you. My inbox is filled with email, like 10x of what I have been usually getting. Most of it is from companies I've never heard of or haven't been in touch with for 10 years. I got an invitation from somebody to invest in their company that I haven't talked to in five years. So it was very strange that outward communication. I think organizations really need to think about a couple of things when they're designing or creating and crafting a message that goes outwards. One of which is why this, why now, and why me? These are lenses that I use for defining what good public communication looks like. Why is this communication important? Why is it necessary? Why now? Why is the timing on this important? Or right or not right? And why me? Is this something that typically would come from my brand and that my customers would usually hear me talking about? Is it something that we're aligned with? And that deepens that alignment, which goes into the sort of second mantra that I use when I help people think about outward communication messages, which is what's in it for them? And the what's in it for them mantra is always craft your messages that has a value statement or very clear understanding, understanding of the receiver. And you're writing the message that communicates to them. How does it benefit their world by saying, for instance, we're still here for you. And you haven't gotten into the specifics of how you're helping them or how you're innovating for them, or what new products or services or how you're serving them differently than you were before then you really haven't bridged the gap. And you're forcing them to do their own imaginative thinking of what does that actually mean. For me, that's the outward communication side of things. And the inward communication side. We see much more so or much less so from the public perspective and much more so in how people show up in their character. And typically we see this in the way that an organization is managing their culture or the way a CEO is helping their team navigate through this particular crisis. And so there's one really wonderful company that I work with, and from day one of the crisis, the minute that they shifted into a mod of, okay, we're all going to go remote working. And this was a company that was not used to remote working, and we're going to very quickly shift. They developed a task force that was based on a leadership team. And one of the things that they did that I love, love, love, and they're still doing is they have a daily Fireside chat that the CEO holds at 1:30 every day. Everyone from the company, they have 250 or so employees, can dial into it, hear the CEO talk about what's happening with the business, and then he directly answers questions. And if he doesn't have an answer for the question on the spot, he writes it down and says, I'll get back to you tomorrow on this. And then he starts with those questions. It's such a beautiful format and it's such a powerful thing. And I work with multiple teams at that organization, and I've heard from so many of them how much they appreciate that.

I also love the Fireside Chat format. And in fact, during week two of lockdown, I pitched it to one of my clients. They didn't end up taking me up on it, but I was supposed to do some presentations for a bigger. It had gone virtual conference. And I said, you know what? Instead, I would suggest a weekly Fireside Chat to talk about this where we don't have the answers. And maybe I'm hosting a panel once a week because I love doing pivot panels where I'm interviewing three leaders from the company or even a leader, somebody earlier in their career and someone in the middle, you know, and that was what I felt, too, that that was really what was needed, that there's people didn't, I don't think, still really want content so much as to just talk. And you and I both listen to a lot of podcasts. The podcasts that I love the most right now are where the people are being so honest, and they're saying, oh, I don't know. They're saying, how are you handling this? Well, here's what I've tried. Well, here's what I'm doing next. Here's how I'm thinking about it.

And.

And I find that so much more interesting than even the, like, I've seen a zillion, you know, like, 10 ways to pivot your business. And I'm sure I've done those, too. But where I'm at now is I find the unfolding conversation so much more interesting than something that's more tactics based. I guess with the caveat, unless those tactics are extremely helpful and practical and specific to what my needs might be.

I so completely agree with that. I think that people don't want to be talked to or told what to do right now unless you've got some really, really, really powerful content. But really, people just want to be heard and they want to listen, they want to learn, they want to contribute. I think I mentioned that I was on this global kind of roundtable discussion that from people all around the globe, like, I loved hearing from people from Africa, for instance, about how they're dealing with this, what's actually happening with them. And yes, certainly I contributed my perspective and was invited to do so, but I found the listening and the learning and the space holding part to that as valuable as anything I had to say.

You mentioned people wanting to be heard and to bring this, to connect this to some of our earlier parts of the conversation. I feel this craving to hear myself, to hear myself think. And I think also people want to be heard. And I think people are just ready to turn off some of the news and turn off some of the noise, even noise, or the previous parts of ourselves like you talked about. What are the parts that are ready to dissolve, resolve. And I think this is a time that in so many different ways and in different conversations, the, the teachers, the leaders that I really respect have said, don't miss this. Like, don't miss this chance to get quieter than you might otherwise be and hear what is emerging within you. And even before we hit record, Steve, I was saying, you know, you're saying, oh, you're doing so much work with this daily podcast. And I said, yeah, but I'm. I'm not serving clients right now. So it's possible for me to do this because I can hear myself think. It's this crazy gift of this moment that I'm not saying I'll never take on clients again, but it is so fascinating not to be so focused on the other and able to reconnect with my own ideas. And how am I serving myself and my community during this time, not just my clients that pay the bills. That seems more functional, let's say.

Yeah, and that's part of why I love a conversation like this. I mean, you and I both had no idea where we were going to go with this. We did know we were going to hold a space and see what came up and maybe talk about where we're at right now from a Crisis standpoint. But, you know, I just love hearing you talk about the things that you're thinking through, your internal dialogues and motivations, the beautiful discoveries that you're making about yourself through the this process. And as I listen, I'm also listening with the highest parts of myself to understand, well, what am I thinking about around those things as well. And I think that these types of conversations, both with people who have that beautiful ability to hold a space and go into the unknown deep forest, let's see what happens, type of territory, both with that individual and the same thing on your internal dialogue to really sort through what is it that matters most, what is it I'm really feeling, what is it I'm really thinking, and what is it that I want to do next with all of this?

Such great key questions. And I have to say I'm having as much fun as you. I'm sad that our time is almost up, but we have to give credit back to CTI for this notion of a brilliant conversation. I'm just so grateful. Just the phrase itself inspires me. And I wonder if we can, like you just said, apply this brilliant conversation to a ourselves that the whole point of this was Steve and I had no agenda, we had an intention, and we knew we could bounce off of the previous conversation. And for me, it was just, wow, we had a lot of fun recording the last one. People gave great feedback. Let's turn on the mic with the intention of a brilliant conversation and see where it takes us. And there is a sense of awkwardness sometimes, or vulnerability or deep listening on unfolding. And what's important to me is not to say or claim or try to be an expert on any of this, but to just explore, which is the whole point. Expand, explore, play. And to come right back to the definition. The CTI leader said you should leave with more questions than you had when you came. And I do feel, especially you, Steve, have offered up so many brilliant and beautiful questions for the audience once again.

Yeah, thank you. I feel like I'm walking away with more questions, too. Some of them are about my future potential podcasts. Some of them are about what's next and all the beautiful things that come to that. I find it interesting that.

When we pivot or when we evolve or when we go through transformation, it really doesn't ask us to stop being ourselves, but what it really does, it demands that we find a way back. We traverse back into the deep authenticity and the strengths and all the things that have created the genius that sits inside of us. And Some of that just means that we're moving anything that doesn't matter out of the way and simply allowing ourselves to bloom, or allowing ourselves, to use your metaphor, to emerge from the chrysalis and into whatever version of flight that we're looking forward to next.

Props to nature, you know? Yeah, I didn't even come up with that one yet. It's like I was just talking on episode 195 with the most fascinating person, Bishop William Swing, who my brother met serendipitously. Our first conversation happened live on the podcast. I mean, not live for listeners, but live for me. And he said it. He studied biomimicry to figure out how to unite a million people and around the world through inter religious working groups. And he has done that through biomimicry and looking at nature. And yeah, Steve, I just thank you so much for being here with me and for ending on that note. I just love, love, love what you said about change and transformation doesn't ask us to be someone we're not. That in a way. You had talked earlier about the elation of transformation that actually there can be so much freedom if we have the courage to dive into the unknown. There can be so much courage and so much freedom and elation because we're removing things that are blocking our true selves. It's quite the opposite of feeling like, oh, you have to be something you're not. And I find for myself, I just have a low tolerance to that. I get so allergic to that now. Anything that's asking me to be or do or something that doesn't resonate.

Beautiful, Jenny. Thank you so much for hosting us, for holding the space. I absolutely loved today's conversation and hope everyone got a lot of great stuff and I can't wait to hear from people about my upcoming podcast. Yes or no?

Yes. You've got this. You're gonna have to report back once once you launch. I think it's great. Thank you so much, Steve. And thank you everybody for being here, listening.

Thanks so much for listening to this episode of the Pivot podcast. Make sure you don't miss an episode or my insider tips and templates by signing up for Pivot List, a curated twice monthly newsletter where I share the inside scoop on what I'm reading, watching, listening to and the latest tools I'm geeking out on. Sign up@pivotmethod.com pivotlist get show notes from this episode at Pivot Method Podcast and connect with me on Twitter @jennyblake.

Remember, build first, then your courage will follow. Hasn't it always?