203:🎢 Riding the Emotional Rollercoaster of Launching with Natalie Lue

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A lot of people can identify with the sense of I'm making this thing and I'm going to launch this thing and you have this idea it's going to be this and we have to check in with ourselves along the way to make sure that we're still in integrity with ourselves. The thing is still the thing that we set out for it to be or that we still feel on board with it and that we haven't gone off course. And I think that if we can do that for and with ourselves, then we can also be a bit gentler.

This is your time. How can we earn twice as much in half the time with joy and ease while serving the highest good? That is our guiding question here at the Freetime Cafe, your home for heart based business. I'm your host Jenny Blake. Join me for conversations with authors, friends and fellow business owners as we explore ways to free your mind, time and team to do your best work. Now onto today's show.

Welcome back Free Timers Jenny, here with somebody I am so delighted to have on the FreeTime podcast. I had the great joy of not just reading Natalie Liu's book the Joy of Saying no. A simple plan to stop people pleasing, reclaim boundaries and say yes to to the life you want. I love that book so much. We had a wonderful Pivot podcast conversation, episode 335 on five types of people pleasers that of course I'll put in the show notes. But more than that, Natalie and I hit it off so much that the first time we connected for the Pivot podcast we just talked right through the whole interview hour. So at the end we scheduled another time to actually record and then we had so much fun on that one, we scheduled a time to go behind the scenes of her book launch and specifically the emotional roller coaster of launching anything at all, but especially a big project like a book. So I'm just so overjoyed to get to go behind the scenes. Be sure to check out Natalie. She has even though the podcast isn't active any longer, the baggage reclaim sessions are incredible and she has a new substack called On Knowing Yourself. Natalie, welcome to free time.

Thank you for having me. Jenny. What a wonderful welcome.

I appreciate you sticking with me through my, as I told you, awkwardly unscripted. But that's because one of the great gifts of this podcast is having to have conversations with authors where I love their work, like yours. I love your book so much I highlighted every section of it. But then to develop an actual friendship and get to speak really honestly of what does this all feel like? And that was part of what had you and I non stop conversation is what is a book launch all about? And the vulnerability of launching. And you're right in the thick of it. You're in the first six months of your launch. So start wherever you want. But what do you think it is that people don't see or know that an author might be experiencing in these first six months?

I think what has been fascinating is when I connect with people, say for instance, friends, family, or people, for instance, who follow me on social media, their perception of how things are or what's going on or what you've done can be very different to the reality and stuff like, oh, it looks amazing, looks like you're here, there and everywhere. It looks like the book's doing like really, really well. And actually, I think for a lot of authors there's a lot of turmoil going on. Your family, friends, people who aren't, I guess, in the industry as such or knowledgeable about the sort of the intricacies of publishing, just see that you have a book out and to them that's amazing. And of course it is. But of course, as the author, you know all about what's led up to that, what it takes to actually get the book out, what has and hasn't happened, and your ambitions for it. And that can be pretty tumultuous. It can be very, very anxiety inducing. And the, the funny thing is, and I know that you relate to this as well, is that a lot of authors don't really talk about.

What publishing is really like, what it involves. They talk maybe about the writing process, like do this, do that, or don't do this. But they don't really talk about some of the struggles that they experience behind the scenes with the publisher, possibly with their agent, or even what they go through themselves and how hard it is to launch. And what that does is it sort of perpetuates the cycle out there where a lot of us are coming into this thinking, oh, this is going to happen, this is going to happen, or thinking, oh, what I'm experiencing is weird when actually a lot of us are experiencing exactly the same things or variations of it.

Let's dig into some of that. I mean, there's so much to say. A couple I want to double click on and highlight is the gap of your ambition versus what's actually happening in the early days and months of a launch. What people see on social media, you're everywhere. And it almost looks like, yes, in some ways you're everywhere. But then the emotional journey, especially if you're highly sensitive like we are in the background, is like, but I just want to crawl back into my turtle shell, what's going on here. And then the gap of publisher expectations and that tumult that can happen in that relationship. So choose your own adventure. Which one of those do you want to start with? I would love to hear, like, specifically what's been coming up for you.

I personally found a lot of the process of publishing. I won't say it was all the time, but aspects of getting a book deal and going through the process and then launching it really pushed a lot of my anxiety buttons and of course, some of my people pleasing buttons. And what that meant is that we're inclined, Jenny, to give it our all. You know, we want it to be all the things and we have so much to say and we want to share our gifts. And what I really struggled with was the gap between what the publisher says they're going to do and how things are going to be and sort of how they essentially talk about things that are coming up and the gap between that and reality. And in my other life of work, where I've written a lot about romantic relationships, I call this future faking, which is where somebody bigs up the future, you know, talks about things that are going to be happening in the future in order to get what they want in the present. So it could be, for instance, you go on a few dates and it's like, oh, I can't wait for you to meet my family and we're going to go to this wedding in the summer and blah, blah, blah, and then they're gone. And this happens in publishing a lot. And so a lot of the things that I thought were going to happen, for instance, there was a lot of from before I'd even agreed a deal. Can you come to America? We need you out here in America. We need you for at least a week at the launch. We want you to do all these various TV shows. Can you come to America? Yep, yep, yep, yep, yep. Every time we speak can you come to America? Can you come to America? Can you come to America? And then with all the upheaval that goes on in publishing, with staff going, pretty much no one who was on the original team that bought my book existed anymore towards the last sort of six months or so before my book came out. And so then I have a new team and I'm like, oh, so what's happening with America? Cue tumbleweeds. And honestly.

I felt like such a fool. And I know that so many people can relate to this, whether it's about a book or something else, where you've actually bought into what you've been told is going to happen. And then it was like, oh, yeah, maybe. Actually, no. And the reality of my launch, in terms of the type of pressure that I was told that I'd be doing, was so radically different from the reality of that. And there's a part of you that can't help but take that personally. I liken publishing to being like horse racing. And the publisher decides which horses they want to bet on, which ones they want to invest in. And that is typically celebrity horses, like super well known authors, and they put most of their energy, their money, everything into those. And then they might pick out a couple of other favorites that maybe don't quite fit within that. And the rest of you are left to hobble your way down the track without the support, the resources, the infrastructure to help you make your way down there. And there will be authors who will be like, okay, I will give it my everything, even if it involves burning myself out. And then if that offer happens to do or write out of that, the publisher will swoop in and be like, oh, look at this. And possibly even claim credit for it as well. But this is publishing, and a lot of us feel like the busted up, neglected horse who's had no investment in them and feels completely confused as to why they're being treated that way.

That's how you feel in the first six months. And then if you're like me with pivot and it's six years later, you feel like, oh, they've shipped us to a different barn. Like, they don't even know my name anymore. My horse did really well. It's probably in the top 1% of what most books globally sell, right? And I'm still shipped off to some other barn. They don't know my name anymore. You know, that's like out of sight, out of mind when you were talking about your expectations for America. I mean, this future picking is so such a great term for it. And also the future painting of a dream that people are want to do. And like you said, that original team just wasn't even there by the time you launched. Were they promising a lot of press and media and momentum that they were going to help generate in the US or was it like Will Comp youp Flight? Because also publishers have varying degrees of like money they'll throw behind things. And I'm sure they'd say like, well, great, if you can get yourself here, will line stuff up for you. But often they don't even say that.

Yeah, they were like, oh, we want you to do like Good Morning America, this show, that show. Like they were super enthusiastic and it kept coming up and it's like, we'll have you out here for like a week. I was like, this is amazing. And then nothing. And it's one thing if I imagine these things for myself because I'm looking around and I'm seeing, I don't know what a select few authors are doing. That's an entirely different thing. When a publisher's saying this stuff to you and I get it, things change. And in no way am I saying that I don't appreciate what other press I may have had, but particularly in America, it is significantly short of what I was told was going to happen. And you grieve with all of this. And in life we are always grieving in some way, shape or form and it doesn't necessarily mean all of that grief that we experience is always heavy duty, but we are always letting go of and you know, receiving other things in life. And what I found is that I've been through a grieving process over these last few months. In all honesty, my book came out on January 10th in the US and I was so exhausted from all of the pre order stuff, which honestly fell a lot on me, you know, the majority of that. And it, it felt very intense because instead of the six months that I was told that I would have marketing, not even the told that I would have told was necessary for me to adequately market my book and get it out there. I had about two and a half months beforehand. And so everything felt a bit last minute and rushed and well, you know, I remember listening to you talk about how books were going out like more than six months beforehand to other authors and to publications. I didn't have all of that. So I essentially, I got hobbled before I even got out the gates. And on the day the book came out, I was so exhausted. I remember my daughter taking a picture of me with the book. And I was like, you know what, I'm not posting this on social media. I actually just want to go to bed. Like, I don't need to do this today. And so I went to bed early. I think I went to bed at like 7:30, 8 o'.

Clock.

And the following day I did the same thing. And a day after that, and it took a few days before I started to feel like normal, like, well, I say normal, just like not exhausted anymore. And so by the time it came out in the uk, just over a week later, I felt like I could have a bit more genuine enthusiasm for it. But it has been a back and forth roller coaster of grief. I think particularly you're constantly seeing books coming out, you're constantly seeing authors talk about what they're doing and you're going, wow, this is so different from my reality. But then there's somebody looking at me going, oh my gosh, my reality is so different from hers. So it's the vicious cycle of publishing.

I'm so glad you mentioned grief because for starters, I think the reason so many of us don't talk about this at length publicly is we don't want to seem ungrateful. At least I can speak for myself. I don't want to seem ungrateful. Like if I talk about the challenges, I'm focusing more on that. Then what is happening? What is selling or what publicity is being generated for me too, I was right in the peak supply chain disasters of 2021 when we sent my book free time to print. And so I did everything, I pushed myself to get the manuscript final, final, final six months in advance. I mean way early. And I met every single deadline and the team miraculously met me on every single deadline. Then, to no fault of our own, the book printing was four months late. So just like you, I also missed that precious window where you send the books to the really big podcasters who schedule six months out. And if you miss that, like those opportunities don't always come back because then they see, oh, you've already been on 30 shows, I'm not interested anymore. You know, like, unless it's a good friend, there really is a window to try to reach them and get on those big shows and even give them an exclusive, for example. And the fact of this grief, it's like I invest so much in a project like this. I remember grieving when my little hermit mode cocoon ended that once the manuscript was final, I was so relieved. But then there was this grief process of, oh no, But I had so much fun. I had so much fun, like saying no to everything and focusing on this really deep, meaningful project. And I remember feeling really let down in the following days and weeks. Now what? And even after launching now what, I go back to my email inbox like that's the most important thing that I have to do on a given day. Of course it isn't. There's also podcasting, BFF community. There are things that give me tremendous joy. But this big thing was gone that I was so dedicated to. And then that's mixed with the grief of the results and seeing, oh my gosh, I actually did hold this delusional hope, or Hopium as the kids are calling it, about it going viral and it getting to the top of some Amazon chart that then perpetuates the tipping point that then, oh my gosh, it just can't stop flying off the shelves. And it's almost like, I don't know about you, but I did let myself dream that dream that it was gonna sell like hotcakes, you know, and some magical moment would happen and yes, I would be working hard and it would get picked by someone or something out there that would magnify the results. And when the reality starts not matching up and the sliding doors, pictures or side by side of like that vision, no matter how delusional versus like what is actually happening, there's still so much good to what's actually happening. It's just that also that gap is hard not to focus on.

Yeah, I mean I had the same hopes as you. And the funny thing is that when I think back to what I was saying this time last year, I remember that I would say about taking a medium to long term approach that some of the biggest books, best selling books around that are selling like Gambusters seem to, can't seem to stop selling. Some of them took a good year or two before they made any wave whatsoever, like atomic habit. I think Malcolm Gladwell's book, one of his ones, was one that took a year or two. Catherine May's Wintering. It's okay for the book to be a slow burn. I remind myself of this, it is true. And keep in mind that this is my first traditionally published book. But I self published four previous books that in total have sold like over 150,000 copies. And that did not come from me every day, like hustling, hustling, being like, oh my God, buy my book, buy my book. It didn't come from me panicking in a weird way. I made Those things, I talked about them somewhat and then I left them to go out in the wild. Whereas there's something about the traditional publishing process, I think in particular that gets you into this. Like you wanted to almost have like some sort of instant acclaim. And you know that that is more likely for certain types of authors who put a hell of a lot of money into the pre order bit to get it onto the bestseller list, you know, in that first week and stuff like that. Or they have this super massive audience and yet neither one of us wrote our books because we wanted to write it and then for it to disappear into obscurity. Like, I absolutely love Pivot, I love Free time. They are life changing works and you didn't write those because you want them to disappear. And they're also books that don't become irrelevant, like they don't like date. And so you put your heart and soul into something. You know that you have this huge thing to say, that you have this message that you know that you can help people. And you go into this process seeing this is like a collaboration and you're going to do all these things.

And.

And the reality is, of course there is a collaboration. And don't get me wrong, I recognize that the people who ended up having to take on my book, they were literally in the middle of firefighting when they kind of came on and took on my book. I'm appreciative of whatever has been able to be done. It is absolutely better than nothing. But at the same time we were allowed to be grateful and to also recognize what sucks about the process. Kept saying to myself, well, you know, you have got this press and at least it's this. It really didn't help my grief anymore. I actually just had to sit with it and be like, okay, this is a bit sucky. Okay, it's not all gone. The book can do all sorts of things. But how things are and what I thought things were going to be is so not there. And I need to grieve that. I need to let myself feel all of that so I can eventually find my way to feeling good about what I'm doing here and be present to.

That said by a true pro on like, this is so much of what your book is about really tuning in and like you can't just bypass these feelings and emotions and hope they're going to go away or suppress them or our inner people pleaser. Well, like I better be the grateful author. And like, I genuinely do believe that. I don't think people necessarily want to hear an author harping on about how hard it is. However, this is free time. This is where we go behind the business and behind the book. And this is the conversation I wish I could hear when I'm having a really low moment. That's what this is in service of, is connecting to anyone else who's riding this incredibly emotional roller coaster.

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What you said about pre orders, I mean, I've heard people spending up to a quarter of a million dollars on pre order marketing and list acquiring. You know, because there are companies you can pay to almost ensure you can get on the list. And to their credit, it's like if somebody has those resources in the business arena, at least business authors, it also means, hey, kudos to you. Like, you've built a smashingly successful business where you can allocate a quarter mil over to your book launch. Like, that's amazing. And then my self talk as I compare and despair looking at someone else's paper is, well, why didn't I build my business like that? Or what about my business? Like, I made choices. Oh, I prioritized free time, maybe too much over money or like feeling just kind of sad that I didn't have those resources. I feel it now about this podcast. Like, I've had multiple people tell me, well, the only way to grow a show really, in any sort of accelerated way, you got to throw money at it. I'm like, if I had the money to throw, I would.

Yeah, Like, I'm supporting three people and there's been all these unexpected bills recently, and I can barely keep up with the household, let alone what I feel is like icing on the cake money, which is ad spending. You know, there's just so many other things in my life and business, and that's on me. I'm not going to say I'm a victim. Like, whatever choices I've made, I've gotten me to this point. And now I need to get myself out of this point. It still doesn't change the grieving process of just almost seeing an express train rush by when you're like, oh gosh, am I doing the right things for me and for my beloved book or beloved project and beloved business in this moment, it's so hard not to look and have like nostalgia as that Zipcar, the super Express zips by so fast you can barely see it.

I felt that really deeply when you said that because I think it's important for us to recognize that we can give ourselves a hard time because we are not putting up to a quarter of a million into a pre order campaign that is often kind of driven by this whole thing of get on the New York Times bestseller list for like a week, you know, type of thing. Because you can literally say New York Times bestseller, which has cachet, which means that you're able to command, for instance, a certain fee or put yourself around certain people. There's a whole business thing to it. And I think that I remember, you know, a good friend of mine who's in the entertainment industry was like, well, why don't you do it? Like, why don't you just like, buy the load of books? You know, because, you know, people do ball quarters and all this type of thing. And I said, and then what? I then said, I'm on the list, but I've now God knows how many books sitting in my studio, in my garage, like, waiting to be sold. Like, we're all making choices. We don't need to throw shade on other people's choices, but we also don't need to throw shade on our own. And in the process of that, like you say, there is that grief. I think back and I go, well, why didn't you do this? Or, well, you know, even though you had no idea what was going on at the publisher, you. You could have organized all of these things yourself in that time. And it's this magical thinking where you're sort of bending reality and the past to suit sort of what you now know about what's transpired. And I think the reality is, is that we were doing our best. There are things that we would undoubtedly do differently. But also at the same time, there's a reason why we've done things in the way that we have, and we're now trying to learn from that. And also because all is not lost with the books. Like, our books will find their way into the hands of the people that they're supposed to find their way into. Interestingly, one of the things you brought up was the podcast and podcasting has changed a lot in I don't know, I think it would be almost eight years from when I first started podcasting. The sheer number of people I know who've entered their podcasts over the last sort of three to four months is actually scary. Podcasting has changed a lot. And I'm not saying that that is all negative, but there's a hell of a lot more podcasts now and a lot of them come from massive, massive media players. And trying to kind of keep up with that and putting the money behind that to climb up the chance against that, that might not necessarily be in our interest. It might be, what does Seth Godin to call it, the minimum viable audience or something like that. That is often our sweet spot and it's probably better and for us in terms of our values and our well being that we operate in that place.

I always come back to Tosha Silver in outrageous openness. I think I'm going to do a book club on this soon because I just can't resist. She says install the divine as the true owner. Become detached. Let go of any grasping for outcome. Detachment creates room for creation. She says if it's hard to detach, pray to be able to let go and receive the highest outcome. Know that one way or another, no matter how things currently look, God is your source and you are safe. And she also like specifically when it came to her book, she just said like may, this book finds whoever it's meant to find and fully trusted in that. And then lo and behold, her little self published indie book Outrageous Openness becomes a viral sensation. I think it has 3500 ratings. I one click ordered it. It changed my life. Then she got a publisher and has written two more since. But like that's such a cool story too.

Wow. But she's amazing.

Yeah. In March 2012 she could barely give the books away. The bookstore she approached would not even accept them, wouldn't take them, couldn't give them away. And then look what happens.

Yep. I mean I found out about Tasha through you and her work is amazing. And actually I loved her story of that. And also actually I came across an article that I had clipped from a newspaper several years back. It must been about the self help industry and it had a whole load of big splash of all these self help books that were out at the time. I think it's about 10 years ago. And in the article it mentions that Louise Hay, sort of the author of many books. The late founder of Hay House Publishing, that she self published her first book, you Can Heal youl Life. And she didn't start writing, I think, or start publishing until she was like in her late 40s, I think. And I think there's this tension that we are and many others are grappling with where we have ambitions. There's something in us knows that we're supposed to be experience something greater. It's not because we think we're better than everybody else, but we're aware that we are here with a sense of mission and vision, something to say, something to share. We know that what we're doing, it can really help somebody to help themselves to change their lives. And it can be so frustrating when you've made the thing you're doing the things and it's not quite connecting and getting out there in the way that in this moment and based on what we've internalized about how things should be, that it's not like that. And it is tough. And again, it's the grieving. Like I feel like I'm constantly grieving ambition.

Ambition at the moment, that's true, yes. Constantly grieving ambition. And I go like, am I just not supposed to be ambitious? But then I have to look at where some of my ambition comes from. And a lot of it has been driven by people pleasing and perfectionism and, and over giving and overthinking and over responsibility. And I can't operate from that place anymore. Like my body is literally going home. We don't play that. We can't do that anymore. If I try to, it's like Sim's on the brakes and goes, nope, can't do it, can't do it. And so I'm really having to notice where that energy is showing up and being really mindful of what's driving me. So you know, as an example, I've recently been on Substack and I think this might be the third month that I'm on there. And I've made a commitment to myself that I was going to gently explore what other possibilities there are for me, including substack. And I wasn't going to go in there and be like I'm going to do this like every week or X amount of times a week. And you're going to get this, this. It's gentle exploration, doing things from a curious, gentle place, not putting myself under pressure, not putting myself into a rigid structure. And then you see the notifications, this person published, this person published this. Ding, ding, ding. And then My brain goes, oh, you should be publishing something this week. You should be publishing two or three times a week. And as soon as I notice that thinking, I know, hold on a second, that's not a good reason for me to publish that thing. And in a similar way, you know, speaking again to the topic of launching, I could keep myself up till all hours and be posting on social media all the time and start up on TikTok and I don't know, just be constantly beating the drum and feel like I'm putting myself out in the street corner morning, noon and night going, buy my book, buy my book, buy my book. But the truth be told, if I do things that way, I'm probably going to hate myself in the book within a couple of weeks because I'm just not cut out for that. That's no shade to somebody else who can do that. But in this season of my life, and this is the thing again, the tension and the grief, my younger self probably would have done all of those things. 45, almost 46 year old me is like, Natalie, you like being in bed by 8:30pm like, how are you supposed to do all of those things? But also in some ways, some of the things I've done over the last few months are counterintuitive to launching in the sense that I have not had it in me to just be on social media all the time and constantly be sort of. I've done lots of interviews, don't get me wrong, I've done lots of things, but I really just found it near impossible to actually be on social media very much over the last few months, which is obviously not necessarily what someone might expect of an author.

Well, you hereby have permission not to do anything you don't want on social media. But yeah, I have those thoughts too. Of is this because I'm a social media curmudgeon and I'm not on it and is that the reason? And it's all my fault. But then I'll look to an author like Cal Newport, who's my guiding light and he might be unique, I get it. And in his work, see, this is where I get kind of messed up in my head because I'm like, I mean, I know that my work does change lives and I'm so elated when I get messages to that effect. And I feel like you. There's just so much I want to respond to because it's just that I have this sense, and I always had since I was young, of reach and impact in my role as a Messenger. And I do see myself as a messenger. Like I really do my best to say to the divine, like, you just use me how you will, you know, like. Like that's what I'm here for. That is genuinely what I am here for. Is one to many communication to be a messenger. This is the must have oxygen in my life. And so I do take it seriously. Even though of course we're trying to hold the paradoxes that you've been describing. Then there's part of me that I go, oh well, is it because of this? And so then you're trying to troubleshoot. Is it because I'm not on social media? Is it because I don't have the energy? And you put words to it in a way I have never quite done. I always call it my solo single self because I remember the way that I could work and how focused I was and even how lean my business could run when it was just me. And it's not that I would choose that. I'm so grateful for the abundance of having a husband and a dog whom I love. And it just means that I'm just not working the way my solo single self used to work. And I'm not saying that that's a better way to work. It is just such a contrast of the capacity that I currently have compared to what I used to have. So there's that grief that you've been talking about.

My younger self would have gone at this like gambusters and it would have been driven a lot by anxious energy. But also because I'm an effort. You know, I talk about this in the joy of saying no where my people pleasing it comes in the form of effort, but it's also my way of trying to control outcomes. And when we are very about efforts, there is a part of us that thinks, well, hold on, the more effort you put into stuff is, the more likely it is that your desired outcome is going to happen. Except for that we have both learned that that is not actually true and that we can go at things really hard and put a lot of effort into stuff and it still might not turn out the way that we wanted. And sometimes we can also overdo it. And so it's this juggle. And like you say, I wouldn't change. I've got two teenage daughters, crazy cockapoo husband. I like my life, but I'm also, I'm not in my twenties, I'm not even in my thirties anymore. I'm mid forties, I'm perimenopausal. On hrt. Of course I don't have the same energy that I had even two years ago, never mind 10 or more.

Yeah, seriously, it's like you also have the 20 something, I don't know, like energy, hormones, adrenaline. Like there's a lot of gifts of biology, I think, that are still happening at that time. And then when you have so many beings in your care, like my sleep is not the same as when I'm sleeping alone. I am a light sleeper. So something as fundamental as that, it's like even my sleep kind of hinges on no matter with eye masks and earplugs or whatever. It's like, who needs to go to the bathroom when I'm waking up? Every time, whether it's Michael or Ryder or like Ryder goes up and down these stairs, I hear his cute little toes clicking, clacking on the floor. And so it's just any given morning is more of a lottery. It's like, how you feeling? What's your energy today? What can you do today? And then of course, wanting to spend the quality time.

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There's something you mentioned that I have an open loop about, which is back to the hopium of hoping for a big break. And the thing is, I remember with the Pivot book launch that two podcasts I were on specifically Jordan Harbinger and James Altucher, both did me such a huge solid to have me on because I didn't know them very well and it was so Generous of them. Those two podcasts alone, I think sold more books than anything else I did during that launch, than any other activity. And then all the rest of the podcasts combined. And so there is a small part of me that while I don't want to hope in a delusional way for some kind of big break, working toward bigger media opportunities can sometimes make all the difference or make a huge difference in terms of putting you and the book or whatever project it is on the map. And so I guess I just want to highlight that paradox too. It's like, don't push the river. Don't pin your hopes on any one savior. Of course we got to do it ourselves. And yet I know the reality that sometimes those big breaks make all the difference.

I went on a show called Lorraine. It's a breakfast show here. You know, I was on for like six minutes or and TV show and I happened to also be flying to Amsterdam that day. And so I remember checking, you know, you kind of go to your thought, let me just see if there's any impact on Amazon. And so I remember looking like early afternoon and going, oh, I don't really see any change here. Then I got caught up in my day. I go back and look like several hours later and the book is like number 75 in all books on Amazon.co.uk.com and just the shock of it, it's like the power of going, for instance, on something like that, like you say going on that podcast. And of course you can't bank on one particular thing necessarily, but I totally agree that there is a thing that when you do get it can actually have a tremendous knock on effect also. All the other things can also add up to something, but it is very handy to have those big boosts because it can really just change the trajectory of things.

Handy. That's a good way to put it. Like, listen, I'm not saying I need it, but it'll come in real handy if one of these things is gonna happen.

Michael and I had a really funny moment last night. We were just, heads are on the pillow getting ready to go to sleep and we had had a really tough day. I don't think I said this while we were recording, but we took Ryder to the doggy er and we were just emotionally wrecked. And it's been a hard time and it's been a hard time in the business financially and so on. So he said, do you want me to say a prayer? Because he grew up going to mass every day as part of his education. So he's more traditionally religious than me. And I said, sure.

You know, it was kind of grumpy.

I'm like, sure, why not? So he says a really beautiful prayer, and he's so eloquent and articulate. And I always, I have to say, in general, people who I think are raised to say grace, I'm like, how is everyone so articulate and beautiful in this divine offerings? It always blows me away. So he did. And then afterward, we start joking. We're like, lord, did you see the vet bill from today? You know, we were joking. We're like, then. Then giving our. What Tosha calls the grocery list for God. We're like, by the way, could you take a look at that vet bill? You know, it's like over $600 from today. We'd really appreciate a little help there. And then we both just start giving this laundry list of stuff. We're like, hey, I don't know if you forgot about this other thing, but could you just give that another look? And I don't know, just bring it up, because we just had to laugh about it. And yet that part of you that's still like. But, you know, it come in real handy, like, if you could just. Yeah, take a look. And I imagine just like slipping a little prayer paper over, like, just take a look, if you don't mind.

Yeah, like, you know, you're supposed to do the grocery list and the amount of surrendering, and you're also like, yeah, but could you do me a solid.

Sort this out for me? You know, what's the deal here? And I think it's totally human, and I think something else, and I suspect that you really relate to this as well, is I think one of my challenges is that I have maybe some fixed ideas or pictures painted in my mind of how I think things should be or could be going based on, for instance, the effort that I've put in or how people have said certain things are, or the hopes that you had for the thing going into it. Anybody listening to this has created something, has likely tried to launch something, but the way you go into something shifts and changes along the way. And one, we have to be aware of where maybe we're too hard on ourselves and we push too hard, and that sometimes we're going to get something in a different form to what we, I guess, decided it should be, or it's going to come in a different timing, whereas we're like, no, no, no, now. Like, I've done the work. Give it to me now. But But I also think that a lot of people can identify with the sense of I'm making this thing and I'm going to launch this thing and you have this idea, it's going to be this. And we have to check in with ourselves along the way to make sure that we're still in integrity with ourselves. The thing is still the thing that we set out for it to be or that we still feel on board with it and that we haven't gone off course. And I think that if we can do that for and with ourselves, then we can also be a bit gentler and because I think a lot of what we've heard about launching, you know, six figure, seven figure business, I got up, had my breakfast, you know, ate a bottle of cornflakes, sent off an email, news, a launch email, and I had a million dollars in my bank account like half an hour later. That's not realistic. But a lot of us have had that sort of in some way, shape or form put into our minds. We expect everything to be brilliant and to like just be flying out the door like gambusters as soon as we create it. And the reality is that most of the time that's not the way that it goes. And we have to also learn to be okay with that and be open to the joy showing up in other ways too.

Is there anything else about this emotional rollercoaster or grieving process of a launch that we haven't addressed that weighs on you or that you wish other authors would talk about?

I do think from an author perspective that there is a code of silence. I think that's very prevalent in the industry, you know, between authors about the publishing industry and that. I'm not saying that we need to run around trashing people. That's. If you've listened to this conversation, then you know that's not what we have done. But I think that if we could be a bit more honest about our experiences instead of trying to always present like glossy highlights, then I think a lot of people would maybe come into writing a book with more realistic expectations and would also be more aware of the things that they need to do to take care of themselves. Also, I don't think enough is said just about how much falls on the author. We're not in the 80s or the 90s or basically before that where when you wrote a book, the marketing was done by the publisher. How great a time was it for authors back then, like the publisher, it was their job to do it. Actually, the publisher puts most of that, unless You're a celebrity or somebody like super duper duper way up there already from like years ago. Most of the time it falls to you as an author. So no matter what they say to you, most of it's going to fall on you. And that means that you need to take care of and prepare yourself emotionally, mentally, physically, spiritually, financially for that. Because there was a temptation with this. You make the work and then it's almost like I've made the thing, I'm so tired now. But also like somebody else step in and market it. No, they're probably going to put it mostly on you 100%.

And you might even find like I did with Pivot at that time I had an email list of I think 15 or 20,000 people, wonderful people. And I did my pre order campaign and I'm like really throwing the kitchen sink at it. All my courses, all my products, all my toolkits, everything I could. And then the publisher gives me the report of pre order sales and they were like, oh yeah, you have 200 pre orders. And I thought out of 20,000, like what are you all doing here? And so sometimes as the author, you'll do all the things you'll even accept. I always joke to people, you kind of have to treat the publisher like your employees, like you just need to tell them what to do and then ask for budget. That's the one thing a traditional publisher, you can often get them to just say yes to send a certain number of galleys out. Although even in the pandemic they stopped doing that. I don't know if they're doing it again. Long story short, sometimes as the author you do it all. You do the 95,5 of the effort and then your audience is just like, oh, well, meh, you know, oh, I don't buy books or like I don't read books. I found that very perplexing too. I think that would be My one unsaid thing was it's not even like if you build a big platform or big ish or bigger, what's the measurement anyway on all that? You're not even guaranteed that that does anything. Like not always a one to one correlation between your platform numbers versus who actually gets out their credit card and buys the book or goes into a bookstore and buys the book. So there's a gap there too, funny.

Enough, that actually falls into, you know, my unsaid thing as well. I had a pretty much identical experience of that and it actually felt quite soul destroying and very, very confusing because you feel like you talk about this thing all the flipping time, but also you have these people, like they're there and they're on your list and you're like, well, hold on a sec. What on earth happens here? And I remember grappling with feelings of shame, disappointment, resentment. Like that was quite a shocker. Oh, this is interesting.

I was getting my free newsletter every week for 10 years. You know, it's hard. I don't want to admit to that resentment feeling that comes up, but it comes up.

It totally did. But you know what that did for me? It made me reevaluate how I was showing up in the world in the sense that I realized, oh, hold on a second. If resentment's in the room, that's telling me that even though it wasn't intentional, there's somewhere along the way I've over given and there is a part of me. And I think a lot of people listening will identify with this because it's what we're taught to do. Make free content, give things away. And when you want people to buy something from you, when you want people to do something, they will do it. That is not true, or it's not always true, or not true to the degree that we would expect given, for instance, 20,000 people on our list. And it can feel soul destroying when the publisher turns around, oh, we've only done X amount of pre orders. And the funny thing is pre orders are for the benefit of the publisher. And because the publisher values that, and I get it, then it becomes the pressure on the author. And so then the author feels pressured to give all the things. But most people want a book that's going to turn up the following day or be straight in their Kindle or their audio listener or their audio reader or whatever you call it straight away. They don't want to wait months on end for a book. And so you have to incentivize people. But not everybody is going to take action and it can be deeply frustrating, especially when you put in a lot of effort.

Well, I loved watching what you did because you said when resentment enters the room, it's a sign you've been people pleasing as your book so beautifully addresses. And so you stopped your podcast. You had been doing it for eight years. You have hundreds of episodes. You close your old newsletter as we knew it and you started a substack. And kudos to you because you realized, wait a second, I've been giving, giving, giving, giving so much for free. Not expecting anything, but just like, I need this to work for me too. Now and I loved seeing that, that part of this process with the book and everything was this insight, this aha moment that you had around a business pivot that you wanted to make. And I just think that that's so powerful. And I want to say for any of you listening who have bought free time or the joy of saying no, how much it means because for all these complaints, you know, today, or the tough parts about it, it's that much more special when you buy the book, when you send the author a note, I have friends, bless their heart, who if they hear someone they like as a guest on another podcast, they buy the book whether or not they want to read it as a thank you for that guest giving great info on the podcast. They subscribe to that level of gratitude, of letting the flow go, of saying, and I had someone once I was on Jonathan Field's podcast, which is where they're who connected us or like that's how we got connected. Steve Morris, shout out, he was on Pivot as well. And Freetime sent me a handwritten thank you note. I was just a guest on Jonathan's show. He sent me a handwritten thank you note and we've been in touch ever since. And so like, those are the moments and those priceless connections and those are the ones that I do think fuel us. And it is such a beautiful way that any of us can thank somebody for saying, hey, you were a guest on a show I subscribed to. It changed my day, my week, my month. Let me buy your book as a token of my gratitude. It doesn't matter if you buy, read books or not or you want to re gift it. It doesn't matter. It is just such a graceful, wonderful thing to do because of how much goes into it.

Amen. Like, that is so beautifully, beautifully said. Yeah, amen.

We get to close on you with our famous last question. With all this conversation we've been exploring, if you could give fellow business owners and or authors permission to do something differently or drop something altogether, what would it be?

I would say stop trying to do things at like, whatever your idea of 100% is. Like, not everything requires that level of energy, you know, bandwidth out of you. How about trying to do something at 70% and seeing what happens there, playing around with that level. Because I think if you give yourself permission to do that, you have a lot more energy, you know, bandwidth left for yourself and for your business. Otherwise you just exhaust yourself.

So good shout out to Kathy Onetto. Sustainable ambition came out right at the time of this recording and we were talking about her great stuff around that too before we hit record. So I love that permission slip. Do something at 70% and gather a group of trusted friends, fellow business owners, authors, create event sesh. It doesn't have to be public this one, but get it out. Let yourself feel the feelings. I think this is just like you said Natalie. It's so important not to do that spiritual bypassing of like just pretending it's all good. Even though we know generally like yes, we're grateful for all of it. And let's also just let people in or let your friends in on what you find most challenging. Make sure you have a container to do that.

So beautiful.

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