216: Pivoting Stand-up (NY) with Dani Zoldan

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What's next? This is a question we're all having to ask and answer more frequently. I'm Jenny Blake, your host of the Pivot Podcast and author of the only move that matters is your next one.

For show notes from this episode, visit pivotmethod.com podcast. If change is the only constant, then let's get better at it. Here we go.

Hello, everybody. Welcome back. I am so excited to be here today with Donnie Zoldan. He is a lifelong entrepreneur. In 2008, he purchased stand Up New York, the famous comedy club on the Upper west side of Manhattan. I first got acquainted with Stand Up New York through James Altucher, who was back on the Pivot Podcast, one of my earliest ever episodes. Number 21, reinvent yourself to kick off 2016. And so as James bought into the club, I started to go to more events there. And turns out, I mean, Donny's such a superstar, so I can't wait for you all to meet him. But Stand Up New York made its name in the 80s and 90s with many of the world's best known comics, including Jerry Seinfeld, Chris Rock, Robin Williams, Louis ck, Jon Stewart, and today. Although live events are paused right now, it has been home to many current A listers, including Amy Schumer, Michael Che, Pete Davidson, and Judah Friedlander. Donnie is always innovating and now I'm going to say always pivoting. I was almost jumped out of my chair when I was reading the New York Times March 18, and there it was, a front page article in the style section called open your laptops, the comedy show is about to begin. And who is quoted in this article other than Donnie Zoldan, saying, within half a second of this pandemic, I pivoted with that. Donny, welcome to the show.

That was, I mean, that intro was amazing. Your voice is so calming. I feel like I'm listening to npr.

Thank you. That is the highest compliment I could ever receive.

That's what I said. I didn't need a pop Xanax like 20 minutes ago.

You know, I love. I got to see Donnie on video before we hit record. And he has this full fleshed out beard and he's got the whole place to himself at Stand Up New York. Because you're the only one in there now, right?

I'm the only one here, yeah. It's been my man cave for, I guess, almost two months now. I live a few blocks away from the club. The club's on 78th and Broadway.

Yeah. You know, I have three kids at home, so they're in zoom school.

Half the day and they're going crazy the other half of the day. And my wife has been home watching them. And I've been able to escape and come to the club and sit at the bar and just do work by myself. I haven't. I haven't had a drink, even though I'm sitting at the bar yet. I might start, but. No D. But it's been nice. It's been nice and peaceful.

Speaking of voices, you have that voice of an authentic born and raised New Yorker.

Do I?

Yeah. Were you? Were you. I know you were born and raised in New York. Was it on the island of Manhattan?

On the island of Long.

Oh, on the island of Long.

I've never said that before.

Me either. Me either. Which part of the island of Long?

Yeah, the island of Long. Okay. I lived there until I was 14, then my family moved to the city right before I started high school. So we lived on 18th between 5th and Broadway, which is an amazing place to live during high school and college. I went to nyu and then I moved to the Upper west side in 2002. I've been here ever since.

I mean, going to high school and college in the city must shape your character in some insane way, and I mean insanely good. You're just thrown right in the middle of this insane melting pot. And I'm curious, what do you think? I feel that born and raised New Yorkers have a certain badge of just humanity that so many of us don't have by nature. Like, we don't grow up with it. How do you think that experience shaped you of high school and college in the city?

Oh, my God.

I mean, just experience wise, I think I've experienced so much more than a lot of the people that I grew up with that grew up in Long island or Queens or Jersey or Brooklyn. You just. You just meet people from all walks of life. Obviously, when you grew up in New York, and you're also tolerant of these people. You know, when. When you're in the city and you're surrounded by all these different types. Types of people. So I mean, politically, obviously.

You know, I think most people, you know, in the city are more left leaning. So I think when I moved to the city, I mean, I was young, I was only like 14, but, you know, I was conservative. And then just as you live in the city and I spend every Saturday and Sunday in Washington Square park in the Village, in Greenwich Village. You know, you just get exposed to.

All these liberals out there and the hippies playing music. I don't know if you've been in Washington Square park like on a weekend.

Oh, I used to live right by it too. I used to walk through it every single day. I miss that.

Yeah, it's amazing. Yeah, I miss that too. I don't even know if that exists anymore.

I don't either. I haven't made my way down.

There were like these hippie bands like in every corner of the park.

I know I'm now over 100 blocks north of Washington Square Park. It used to be right by my house. So I haven't journeyed, I haven't taken the trek down there to just see what it's like right now.

But I imagine, I feel like stuff like that doesn't exist anymore. I feel like this was. This was 20 years ago, 20, 30 years ago. I don't know, I feel like just life was simpler and pure back then. You know, people spend nothing more time outdoors. What you said, especially now.

Right, right. It's the only thing to do. I live, I do live close enough to Central park, about 30 minute walk. And I was joking the other day that Central park is the new Times Square because that's where you see all the people going and they're trying to stay six feet apart while still picnicking and socializing. It's the only thing.

Yeah, Central park has been pretty packed.

Yeah.

Riverside park also. I'm near Riverside Park.

Oh, cool. Yeah, all the parks. I feel like it's just the main attraction right now. You're in a business that was so immediately impacted when the Shelter at Home order came. And I was so blown away just reading. First of all, way to go on getting featured in the New York Times, like at the very start of the pandemic. Part of that was because you were doing this really innovative live stream and just you pivoted to streamable comedy and programming right away. I'm wondering how you jumped into action so quickly. Like, take us to your mindset during that time rather than going into panic or worry or paralysis because you're in a business and an industry that is so difficult to do online. Although I don't want to put words in your mouth, maybe you found a way now.

I mean.

I think that's where I'm strongest. Like when I'm put against the wall.

And there's a lot of pressure and there's like nowhere to go. I think that's like, for some reason, I guess something from my childhood, that's like my comfort zone and.

That'S where I thrive. So when I. When I found out, I remember, I think it was like March 14, it was my wife's birthday.

I bought tickets to a concert at Beacon Theater on the Upper west side. And it was like 3pm And I just saw like a notification that the NBA canceled their season.

I kept on checking the Beacon Theater website to see if this concert would be canceled. Then like 30 minutes later, it was canceled. I knew I was downtown. I was actually. I always buy my wife like a last minute birthday gift. So I was like in the Wall street area buying her a birthday gift. And like the financial district was like, it was empty. MBA season was just canceled. The concert was just canceled. And I knew like that day I knew like that was like the turning point. Like things are going to drastically change. It was just like the weirdest day. I don't know, I just felt.

An energy where like, I want to do something with this, you know, instead of just like going home and you know, like just talking about it. I wanted to use this as an opportunity. So we talked about live streaming for a number of years, but it wasn't a priority. Obviously the priority is filling the seats here every night. And also comics were always hesitant to livestream their shows. They were a little paranoid. They don't want to get their material out there. So it was a hard sell getting comics before this to.

Video them and stream it on the Internet.

But.

Obviously the pandemic changed things. And I mean, for live streaming comedy, I think this pandemic was the thing that changed their minds. Even when venues reopen, I think comics are more likely to agree to be filmed and livestreamed on the Internet. So I think it just adds another revenue stream to this industry. I'm thinking six months from now, hopefully we'll have a pac club, but hopefully we'll also make our shows available online. So in the short term it sucks and we don't have shows, but in six months from now, hopefully we'll have those two revenue streams.

One of my extended family members founded an improv troupe and she said that when they Tried to do it virtually or streaming. It was so awkward because improv is a format that almost requires audience feedback and along the way. So what are you finding with your comedians who are doing this streaming now? Even if they were reluctant at first, people, I've heard this conversation. Can stand up work without the live audience or how do you figure that out? To get them the feedback, they need to know what's bombing and what bits are actually working.

I mean, I don't know. I don't think it could work. We did it.

Right before.

We were under lockdown. It was like the last day before we were under day before we went under lockdown. I put together this show. It was an all day marathon from like 10am to 10pm where I brought in 50 comics. Like I wanted to go out the bank. So we just had 50 comics come in one at a time. They each did like 15 minute sets and we live streamed that. But. And I thought, I didn't think there was gonna. I didn't think there was gonna be a lockdown. So I thought comics would still come here and perform and we would live stream it. But. But then when the lockdown happened.

I just decided not to continue the live stream because comics didn't want to come here. And it just doesn when comics are performing at home without an audience. But once we can reopen, we will have an audience and we will live stream. So it can work then. But I'm not putting my energy anymore into trying to live stream the shows when we have an empty venue.

Yeah, one thing it made me think of is I guess in theory, one interim measure could be or would be having this one stand up on stage and then only 10 standups, let's say in the audience and you still livestream it and they have at least some people in the room that are six feet apart, something like that, you know, where there's at least some amount of feedback.

Yeah, I don't know. I'd rather focus on other things.

Yes, I hear you say that like I'm not even going to put my energy into that.

No, I did it. I put a lot of energy into putting together this live stream when comics were able to come here. And it was a fun thing to do, but I don't want to. It just without an audience, it's not, it's not good. So. So I'd rather focus on other areas of the business. And then, and then when we reopen and when there's an audience, then continue the live stream then how do you.

Think about keeping the business afloat during such a stressful time where you can't generate at least a major stream of revenue, even if it's not your only one. How have you been approaching that enormous challenge?

I mean, thank God I have a good landlord and I really, at the club, I don't really have many expenses right now.

Things have been really just put on pause. So I don't have a lot of money going out. I have a generous landlord who. We have a good relationship. I've been here 11 years. The club has been here 30 years, three years. He understands the situation. So yeah, my overhead is very low now, so I, I'm just putting the time into just getting organized and, and when this all ends, just, just coming out stronger.

One of the things you said before we hit record is of course not discounting how terrible it's been for so many, but that for you, at least in your business, it's been somewhat of a blessing. And I think so many people might be surprised to hear that from a brick and mortar based business. Although you do so many innovative pilots that don't have to do with the physical location of Stand Up New York. But in what ways has this been a blessing for you so far, even if unexpected?

Yeah, I mean, I mean personally and professionally, I think it's the best thing that's happened to me. I mean, obviously there's a lot of people suffering out there. It's terrible.

But I mean, just, just for me, again, I, I was super overwhelmed before this went down. I've been here 11 years. We have shows every single night, multiple shows a night. So it was just non stop just dealing with comics and staff and customers and just maintenance issues. It was, it got very overwhelming and just never ended. We would have a great Saturday night and then Sunday morning, we have two more shows Sunday. So just to have that pause where there's nothing going on after 11 years is very refreshing. I don't have. There's nothing to do. I mean, I don't have, I don't have comics contacting me. I don't have staff really contacting me.

There's no customer complaints, obviously.

I don't know, it's just things are like frozen and I'm just using that time just to get my ducks in a row and getting organized where I wouldn't have had that time if this didn't happen.

That's so powerful. Just to hear that. This is, is actually one of the best things that's happened to you professionally. And again, a big credit to you.

And your.

It is the best thing professionally to ever happen to me.

Wow. I mean, it is just so fascinating. Talk about antifragile. I don't know if you know the term from the scene to lab things that gain from disorder. And you've clearly created not just an antifragile business, but for you personally to have that perspective and not be focusing on what you've lost during this time, but just seeing it as a cause and how. Oh, I can just picture.

But also, we were able. We were able to. To get, you know, this PPP funding, you know, so we can keep paying.

Our employees and did that already come through for you?

Yeah, yeah. So, you know, we're keeping our, you know, that has to go to payroll, so we're keeping our employees so they're happy. So I don't know, it just. It worked out for us. I feel very lucky.

Yeah. I love seeing on your website. When I went, I was like, I know Donnie will address this somehow on the site. You're not just going to. It's not going to be some fossilized website from January that doesn't mention anything. And there's this text up that says spread laughter, not Corona. As part of the comedy community, Stand Up New York hopes to keep people laughing through this chaotic time while giving comics the opportunity to keep working and continue honing their craft. How do you think that a sense of humor can help right now? And I've also. Also heard people ask, when is too early to try to have a sense of humor about all this? And when is it insensitive versus what's needed?

I mean, I. I think humor.

You know, in all situations. I mean, people need it. I mean, even. Even when bad things happen.

You know, you need. You need. You need to be. There needs to be some lightness.

Like, in every situation. So, I mean, I think. I think. I think. Imagine if people didn't have, like, social media these days. Like, I think people would be very lonely and it would be a much sadder time. Like, Instagram Live blew up because of the pandemic. So a lot of comics I know, they're doing Instagram lives, they're interviewing other comics.

They'Re doing shows. A lot of interviews. I see. I don't know. I think there's great content out there. There's great memes. I'm a big meme. F. Me too.

I love memes. My husband got me onto Reddit, and that's like meme heaven.

Yeah. I recently got onto Reddit also, like, two weeks ago for the first time.

There's also this great Onion headline, the Onion. And I gotta read it to you, man. Not sure why he thought most psychologically taxing situation of his life would be the thing to make him productive.

That's funny. Yeah, that's so funny. Yeah, I mean, there's a lot of comments are still out there being funny on Instagram, but I mean, I also find, at least for me, it's hard to be motivated. You know, I don't know, I feel, at least for myself, I come to the club every day. It feels a bit repetitive. I get a late start. I usually get here like 10:30 or 11, and I leave like between 6 and 7pm but it does get lonely here. I'm sitting at a bar by myself. It's a little dark.

I can imagine it's a big shift socially for you given that you have such a. An almost extroverted career. Like, I don't know if you would relate to being introvert, extrovert or ambivert, but your career is certainly interacting with so many people every day, all week long.

Yeah, I mean.

I mean, that feels good. I like the. There's no distractions lately, which, which I really like. I'm sitting at the bar and I mean, there's no interruptions. So before the pandemic, I mean, it's like, it's non stop.

You know, people coming in, booker coming in, the manager coming in, Internet's coming in, beer deliveries, you know, vendors. It's just constant left and right distractions here. There's none of that, which is great. But yeah, I mean, I find myself probably 60% of my day sitting at the bar, working 40%. I'm sitting in the bench in the window, just lying down, looking outside and just like scrolling through my Instagram.

Well, I can understand that. I think for so many of us it does feel like Groundhog's Day. And especially not only do you work in such an active business and the chaos of everyone coming and going and events and all that. New York City, we're also here for a reason, because New York City itself is meant to be that way. And even that has. It's like the tides have receded and it's just so much quieter and our lives are just the same day after day. And I think for those of us living in New York City, we're just not used to that.

Yeah, I mean, I miss, I miss going, I miss going on the subway and I have a WeWork on 14th Street. I miss going there. I'm a member of Norwood Club do you know Norwood club? It's on 14th Street.

Norwood Club is amazing. My friend Phil, shout out to Phil showed me. It's like. How would you describe it? It's all these intricate designed rooms, very homey. It's a private club.

Yeah, I used to go. I used to go there several times a week. It's right across you from my wework. So I miss going there and hitting my laptop and having a drink and then going to the Donut Pub right next door after on my way home. Yeah, and I miss going to meetings just like off site. Like, it's pretty boring. Just going every day for the past two months from my home to the club, like seven blocks away. And there's no detour, except maybe till like Fairway. Fairway or cvs.

The park and the grocery store.

I took a city bike out a few times, but yeah, there's nothing, you know, I can't play basketball. You can't go to the gym, you can't go to a bar, can't go to a restaurant, can't go on the subway. That's like very weird.

I know. It's very hard for anybody to know what's next. I'm curious how you're thinking about reopening. It seems people are just starting to talk about it. There are some companies that are more information work, like Google, Facebook, that are saying their employees and Slack don't have to come back until 2021. Clearly I don't really see you doing that. But I'm wondering, how do you even think about opening up and when and how you're going to do that and even what you're saying to your team, even amidst all this uncertainty, like what goes through your mind as a business owner in this context?

I mean, I'll be honest with you, I have no idea and I'm not thinking about it.

I have a separate business which is, I think how we met, besides through James Podcast Row.

So Podcastro. It's more an event business. But I always wanted to add like a booking service element where we connect podcasters with guests and I'm using this time to build an app where we can do that. So it's sort of going to be like a Tinder type app, like a.

Dating app, where for podcasters.

Yeah, yeah. Guests can be a member and just like swipe and see which podcaster is. Are on. Are on the network.

There's an interruption right now. Our prayers are answered. No, just kidding.

Yep. Did you hear that background?

Yeah, I heard it. Like, Donnie.

Yeah. The building Manager walked in.

Donnie, it's the perfect timing. We were just talking about little interaction. There is.

Yeah, I got my wish.

Yeah, exactly.

Yeah. The building manager just walked in. But yeah, so I mean, yeah, like I said, I always wanted to add like a remote booking service element to Podcast Row instead of just the in person events. So this is a great time to do that and put my energy into that.

Instead of just sitting here and wondering.

When we're going to reopen, because that's out of my control.

I just love how present you are. I love. And then I love that you're actually a business owner saying, I don't know and being willing to say that. Because the truth is nobody can really know. And I've certainly heard certain chefs and restaurant owners say the same thing that someone will ask them, how are you leading through this? Like David Chang on his podcast. And they're saying, I don't know, we can group together. But that's just saying, I don't know. And I love that you are just hitting pause. You're not overly worrying about it or obsessing over this one part of your pivot portfolio and you just so seamlessly shift. Oh, well, I've been wanting to build this thing out for a while. I'm going to put my attention here right now.

Yeah. I mean, yeah, I haven't. Yeah. I don't know. For some it's just not entering my mind. Like when we can restart this. Like if it's six months, like, I'm cool.

I feel like I needed it.

Yeah.

I feel like. Yeah, it's just. I feel like mentally I needed a pause. Whether three months or six months, I'm confident that we'll come back eventually and we'll still be here.

Yeah. I feel like so many people needed the pause that has come with this. Although there's so much that we wouldn't want to take. The good comes with the bad. And of course, you know, we don't want any of the extreme worst case scenarios. But for so many people, I think our lives were crazy. Like, who can keep up with all their email and social notifications and tasks on your to do list and people you're supposed to get back to. It's like impossible.

Yeah. I mean, I'm wondering how things will shift after this all ends. If people's work habits will change. I think that's remained to be seen.

I know. I wonder the same thing. I would ask you that, but then I feel like you'll say, I don't know. We'll Just see when we get there.

Yeah, I don't know.

I'm just Donnie the Zen master.

I'm just chilling.

Yeah, I like it. I love it.

What about you? How have things changed with you?

Well, I pivoted to podcasting daily. Speaking of podcasts, and I love podcast row, by the way. I'm going to link to some of those in the show notes.

Cool.

I love what you're doing with that. And yeah, because a lot of my in person speaking engagements. Well, every single in person speaking engagement was canceled. Some are shifting to virtual keynotes, which is fun. I love facilitating virtually. That's no problem. Been facilitating on Zoom for years now. No biggie. But I'm noticing that some of my larger organization clients, when this all started going down, they just weren't ready to have some outside content person like me. Even if pivot is so relevant, it's like everybody was just trying to find their footing and even figure out what the basics of working from home and getting business done. So. Same as you. Like the pause. This is the least I've traveled in 15 years. It's the. The most amount of time I've been home for a consecutive stretch.

Yeah, that's nice.

A really long time, if ever. Yeah. In my adult life.

I mean. No, I'm like. I mean, the way I look at it, it's like, like we probably had what, like 60 Sunday. 60 consecutive Sundays.

Like, that's pretty. That's pretty amazing. Like, if you look at it like 60 Sundays in a row where there's just like nothing to do, where you don't have to do anything. It's so true. It's kind of cool. Like, when is that gonna ever happen again?

Truly. Truly. And it's funny. Cause just this last weekend, Michael and I and my husband, we looked at each other and we're like, we are bored. And we're never bored, but we're bored for the first time. And we recorded a fun podcast about it. But yeah, and the same thing with the Pause, similar to you, I'm really trying to say, in what ways is this a blessing in my business? Even though there's a lot of lost revenue or revenue on pause by doing the podcast daily, I'm actually challenging myself to think and think strategically and process what's happening and come up with new and original content every single day, which I might not be doing if I were focused more on client work and travel, because travel really takes the out of me. And that's been very interesting. And then even on, in terms of when things pick back up, I'm asking myself the same question you are, which is, what do I even want things to look like in terms of how I do my work and what type of work I do and what that mix looks like on the other side of this? Because maybe it won't be exactly the same or I won't want it to be exactly the same as it was.

Yeah. I think it'll get people also.

To diversify more and have a backup. And when things go back to normal, I think people will be like, what if this happens again? I need to make sure I have some money saved up or I need to have a side hustle. So I think it'll hopefully prepare people for.

This end of the world type feeling.

I think so too. I've said if we're all getting a black belt and pivoting. And when you were saying that, it reminded me your business. It's almost like the way you have it structured. You didn't just stop at saying, okay, I own a comedy club, period, End of story. You're always experimenting with different streams of income and different formats and different operating models. In a way, it feels like when the pandemic hit, you instantly had this backup generator that you could kickstart. Like, okay, podcast, row, boom, go, and you're off to the races. It wasn't a brand new idea. You already had the ideas and you had already been piloting so many things.

I mean, this gave me a good kick to expedite it.

Yeah, fascinating.

And I've been binge watching a lot of TV also, which, like, for two years I just worked too much and I didn't watch a lot of Netflix, but I restarted my binge watching.

And what shows have you binged recently?

Oh, man. I'm watching Barry now with Bill Hader.

Okay.

The HBO show.

Have you seen it?

I've seen three episodes. My dad fell in love with it. Yeah.

Yeah, it's really. It's really cute. It's like 30 minute episodes. Bill Hader is a hitman that, like, accidentally walks into an acting class in la. So that's really cute. And dark.

Designated Survivor. Have you seen that?

I haven't.

Kiefer Sutherland, Netflix.

It's like 22 episodes a season, so I watch like 66 episodes in, like, two weeks.

Unorthodox. On Netflix.

Cool.

I've heard things.

I just missed a lot.

Yeah, that was really good.

I know. I feel like collectively, everyone's getting to rest. Hopefully not everybody. That's not true. Some are getting to rest. If you're kind of working from home and you're not used to that. Some are still working, of course. People on the front lines. But I do feel for a lot of people, Binge watching has been practicing.

People permission just to, like, be lazy. Especially in New York City.

You know, most of us have that hustle mindset, which is kind of. Which is. Which is what I had, and it's hard to get out of it. I don't know. I feel like this just gave people permission just to, like, chill and slow down and be lazy.

Absolutely. Donnie, this has been so fun chatting with you. Where can people find you if they want to learn about what you're up to? Either now or I'm at the bar. Yeah.

Walk by the window to 7pm they can walk by the window.

Yeah. We'll see you in the window. So Instagram.

And we could talk. Perfect. Instagram. Donny Zoldan. One word. D, A, N, I, Z, O, L, D, N, Z, O, L, D, A, N. I forgot how to spell my last name.

Twitter. Dzoldan. Facebook. LinkedIn.

Amazing. All the places.

Everywhere, everywhere.

If you could leave people with one nugget of wisdom or one piece of homework when they're done listening to this, what would it be?

Can you say it again?

Like, one nugget? Or experiment when they're done listening to this?

You know what? How about something I just posted on LinkedIn, and it was something Barbara Corcoran said. Cool.

From Shark Tank.

From Shark Tank. She's awesome. Do you follow her on Twitter? I'm sorry for the background noise.

That's okay. Hey, it's more authentic, you know, it's like you're really there. In Stand Up New York.

Yeah. They're putting out mouse traps, actually.

Oh, really? Oh, my gosh.

I mean, I had a little mouse as a friend two weeks ago.

Oh, yeah, we do. We have a mouse in the house. They're so hard to get.

Disappeared. Who's cute?

They're always so cute. Like, I don't want to see them. But Michael, I feel like, makes friends with the mice in our house and so crazy. Like, it's not like they're running around all over. But he will see a mouse in the middle of the night if he's up late.

Yeah. My family, my kids, my girls, and my wife go nuts.

I'm more scared of, like, a water bug.

Oh, my God. Those are disgusting. Water bugs and cockroaches. I will lose it.

I'd rather.

Me, too.

All right. Barbara Corcoran. She said I just posted this quote by her. You can't turn around a fail. You can't turn a failure around, but you can stay in the game and not feel sorry for yourself. You can turn a failure around, but you can stay in the game and not feel sorry for yourself. I really like that.

So good. I love that. Thank you. I'm so glad I asked that question. Thank you for sharing that with us here.

Yeah, no, of course.

Barbara Corkin also has a podcast that, I must admit, I don't actively listen to yet, but I'm aware that she has it. I just have to go actually check it out.

I'm gonna. I'm gonna check it out also.

Now I'll put it in the show notes. Donnie, you're a superstar. You don't even know it, but you're like Pivot ninja, so I'm sure you know it by now. But it's true. Great chatting with you too. Thank you so much.

Hopefully when this is all over, you'll come to the club and we can all laugh again.

Better believe it. Of course. Can't wait.

Thank you.

Donnie.

Thanks so much for listening to this episode of the Pivot podcast. Make sure you don't miss an episode or my insider tips and templates by signing up for Pivot List, a curated twice monthly newsletter where I share the inside scoop on what I'm reading, watching, listening to, and the latest tools I'm geeking out on. Sign up@pivotmethod.com pivotlist get show notes from this episode@pivotmethod.com podcast and connect with me on Twitter ennyblake.

Remember, build first, then your courage will follow. Hasn't it always.