231: Vulnerability As a One-Way Ticket to Trust with Billy Anderson

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Hello ladies and gentlemen. Welcome back to the Pivot Podcast. I'm really excited to be here today with new friend friendship happening in this very moment, real time on the podcast. Billy Anderson Billy is the founder of the couragecrusade.com he's a mutual friend of Michael Mungay Stanier, two time guest of the Pivot Podcast and longtime friendor of mine. Billie is the author of youf Comfort Zone Is Killing Finding the Courage to Be you. We met on one of Michael's cocktails and conversation virtual happy hours and Billie and I both sent each other a message in the chat just you have great energy. I love what you shared. So we decided to connect right now for a Pivot podcast and this is our first follow up since that group cocktails and conversation. Welcome Billi Woo hoo.

Thanks for having me. I'm excited to be here.

I'm happy to have you here. Speaking of energy, I felt that you have a really open hearted, bright energy to you and approach to life and I'm wondering if you feel that you've always been this way or if this is something that you've cultivated and learned with time.

Yeah, fun, fun question. So yeah, it's always been there but I have had to work at allowing it to come out.

So as a kid I was always really fun and a bit of a joker and all that kind of stuff. And then we hit a certain age and we start to feel a lot of shoulds. So I was like oh I should be more like this or people aren't going to take me seriously or I have to be smart. And so yeah, the last, I mean my whole life. But I'd say the last 10 years has really been going back to really who I am at the core, which is sort of fun and making people feel good. And I do more than that too. But the fun part is. Or the brightness, I'm glad you even recognize that. And it happened. It started when I was 30, so I was Billy as a kid. And then around, you know, 13, like a lot of billies, you go to Bill because it's time to get serious. And then when I was 30 and I left my corporate career, I was like, forget it. I'm going back to Billy. So if. If I bump into someone and they call me Billy, they've met me since I turned 30. If they call me Bill, they knew me before that.

Wow.

I love.

That's such a power, powerful shift that the name itself is a marker for you of returning to that more free, childlike state.

Yeah, yeah, it was actually a. It was a bit of a big deal. And now when, then it was weird for people to call me Billy. It was like, oh my gosh. Yeah, I'm going by Billy now. But now when my old friends call me Bill, it's just like, whoa, who's that? Who are you talking to?

Right. My, My husband, when I met him, it was. Was Michel. He's French, educated Lebanese, but his family always called him Michael growing up. So I think it was almost a year in. And he said, start calling me Michael now. And it was so hard. I couldn't believe how hard it was for my brain to process. It was as if it was a new person and I, I just couldn't.

It's, it's.

It's not an easy thing to do. And I don't think anybody would know that. Unless you've tried to ask people to call you something else or others in your life have been asked to do that.

No, you're right. Calling it with someone else from your shoes. Right. Someone else says, oh, can you call me this now? Especially someone who's close. Yeah, it feels, it feels kind of different. But because I'm touchy about being called Billy and not Bill, I always try really hard to get other people's names right because it's amazing. Some people just don't pay attention. Like, hey, what's your name? I'm like, billy. Oh, nice to meet you, Bill.

I'm like, ah, wait a second. Yeah, it's funny, if I say, hi, I'm Jenny and someone says, great, can I call you Jen? Be like, no, actually, maybe Jen are my closest friends and family might every now and then say Jen. It's a real close Term of endearment. But it wouldn't be something a stranger. Nor would I prefer Jennifer, which is my actual name. Jennifer. It's like so fancy. It's the Bill version. It's like, who is Jennifer?

Totally. No, it's some. It's. I mean, it's the one thing we should be able to determine. Right. Is what we call it. And my actual name is William, which is even.

Oh, that's even fancier. Oh, my gosh. Save that for another 40 years.

Yeah, exactly. William David Anderson.

I can imagine someone calling you Bill and you just go, lee, Lee.

Spill, Lee.

You know.

Yeah. Oh, no, I will. Absolutely. And I'll ask people. And the question shouldn't be, can I call you Bill? It should be like, what do you prefer to be called?

Right.

Why shouldn't we be allowed to. Anyway, it's a small thing, but for me, it did feel like a big deal because at the same time, I left my corporate career and went to lead canoe trips. Right. So it was. It was such a huge pivot that it was just part of it. So it was. Yeah, it means a lot to me.

Way to work. Pivot in there right from the get go.

Yeah.

From corporate to canoes. That's great. That's a really cool pivot.

Said it that way. I like that. From corporate to canoes.

It's like from corporate to canoes to courage crusades, Literally.

Yeah, yeah.

There it is. The podcast is over. We just snapped.

Your whole career is my whole future lined up. Thank you.

Okay, now I just have to ask you, because I think I remember this from cocktails and conversation. Do you, in fact, still have a fun and fancy mustache?

I do indeed, yes.

Can you describe it for listeners that can't see this bright shining photo of you that I see in front of me?

Yeah, sure. Yeah. So it's just. It just curls up on the ends. So almost like. Like Salvador Dali. Like, not that. Not that extensive, but yeah, it curls up on the ends. And when I'm bald, most of that is not voluntary. I just shave whatever is still growing. So the mustache actually stands out quite a bit when you're. When you're bald. It's a lot of face. Like, it's a lot of skin. So I see the mustache kind of like a belt. It just kind of breaks it up. Right. I like that.

I've never heard of a mustache described that way. It also has a fun. It's like mustache with a twist, literally, really has a little twist at the end, and that really genuinely seems to Be what you bring to life. Cool.

No, and that's good to hear. And that alone is a perfect. It's such a, it's. Whether it's the name or just the mustache, it really symbolized like I had a, I had a tough time, like I said, allowing the fun me to come out and not feel like I have to be smart or not. I have to be like perfect all the time. So the mustache is actually, it is, it's courageous because if I'm, especially if I'm doing a keynote, like I'll wake up. And if it's a, like a formal corporate audience I'm doing a keynote for, I wake up, I look in the mirror and that voice in my head says, maybe today you should shave the mustache. And it's like, no, like this is me. Like they might not like it, but this is me. And that's been huge for me because I've worried my whole life what people think. And so it actually is, it might just look kind of goofy, but it's actually really courageous on my. And in my opinion it's helpful, it's.

Helpful to hear your inner monologue around it. And I also. Why do you think it is that we are so some of us, not all, because I have friends that are not this way. Why is it that some of us can be so bogged down by what other people might think or wanting to be liked? And you even ask the question in your book, how do other people's expectations hold you back? Why is it that we struggle with that so much even if we're relatively self aware?

No, it's programmed into us through evolution. Right. In order to survive, we have to be part of a tribe. Even still, you can't just, you're not just born and then you go get a job. Like we need to be part of a group and therefore we need to contribute. And as any group or job or relationship that we're contributing to, we will always belong. So we're just desperate to belong. And therefore we're always worried about if I do this, how's that going to look? Or if I do this, how will I be judged? Because at a DNA level we're just desperate to belong and that's why we worry about that. And you mentioned self awareness. So what I find, if we really work on ourselves, our self awareness and all that, that fear of what will other people think of me, we can give that up a little bit and then we worry more about what do I think of myself. And that's where we All I think we all strive to get to is worrying less about what others think. It'll never go away completely and it hasn't for me either. And more, what about my. Am I. Can I go to bed tonight and tick that box of I'm proud of who I was today and hopefully people will like me for that, but that's out of my control.

I like how you separate the two. That there's worrying about what others think. And for me, they did actually come a little separately where I would worry. I learned to worry less about what others think and people please less. But I hadn't gotten the self compassion piece figured out yet. So I always struggled with holding such a high bar for myself that you're right. It is work to say to not just appreciate who we are, but accept. Accept exactly who we are. And then in our actions do we act in a way that makes ourselves proud at the end of every day.

Totally, totally. And a big part about that is, you know, figuring out what do you most care about and what are you really good at and then using that to contribute in some way. And then it kind of all works out. But even for me, like, you know, I'll be doing a talk and I'll get to a point where I'm going to do something fun or goofy. And that voice in my head says, no, this is a smart corporate audience. Don't. Don't say that thing. I start coming up with excuses in my head why I shouldn't do that fun, goofy thing I was gonna do on stage. And my heart starts pounding and again. So I'm able to push through it. Cause I'm aware that I just wanna be proud of myself, but oh my gosh, like 40 years before I could even contemplate that. I just so badly wanted to fit in. But it's that evolution that makes that happen. And I think any relationship or any part of our life where we're not as happy as we could be, it's because we're not being our authentic self.

In that moment you described on stage, how do you discern an actual intuitive hit compared to your inner critic?

Sure, sure, yeah. Because sometimes that. So that inner critic, so that voice that pops up the second we even think of stepping out of our comfort zone. Sometimes we convince ourselves that's intuition. Right? But usually what it is is it's just us wanting an excuse not to do the scary thing. So, yeah, how you decide is this intuition or is this like, I call it fear or fit?

It's tricky. I mean, on stage, I'm not going to do anything I haven't thought of doing before I got up there usually. And so I'll decide already, hang on. Is this going to be beneficial to them? Is this more authentic? And obviously, is it not going to offend anyone or anything like that? In the heat of the moment, it's really hard.

When you were talking, it reminded me that there's our intuition, inner critic, and sometimes insecurity. One thing I appreciate about you, and we even commented on this the first time we met in the group setting, is just how much transparency shines. It's interesting. I've had these conversations with Penny Pierce on the podcast, but it's pretty quick to tell who's being real and in the moment and transparent. And then. And then, even if it's very subtle feeling that a person is being opaque and even what you're describing on the stage and how you're being on this podcast is bringing up moments and sort of revealing yourself to us. And I think that takes a lot of courage. I know courage is your whole thing, but it takes courage to be imperfect and to let our insecurities have a voice and keep going and then add that bit into your talk while you're on stage in front of this what could be intimidating corporate audience, and keep going and keep being yourself and doing that over and over again. It's not easy to do.

I agree. No. And I know it from experience. And there's still times, even though I teach it, there's still times that it's. It's hard to do. But yeah, we're being our happiest, most kind of fulfilled self the more authentic we're being. And it doesn't mean it's not scary to do. But yeah, it's tricky every time. And I'll do something. So, like the example on stage, I call it lead with the fear. This is one of the most powerful things I think you can ever do, is if you're about to do or say something and you're going to be. You're worried about how it's going to be judged, say that part first. So if I'm about to do something silly and I'm worried it's going to.

Look silly, I'll say, look, this might seem kind of silly, but blah, blah, blah. Or even to my wife, I might say, hey, this might sound kind of selfish, but the thing we were going to do this weekend, I don't really want to do it, so I need to talk to her about the weekend. How am I worried it's going to come across. I'm going to. I'm worried I'm going to look selfish. So I say it first and that vulnerability is. Vulnerability is a one way ticket to trust. And it also helps me be more honest because I've said the thing I'm worried about. Does that make sense? Yes.

And vulnerability is a one way ticket to trust. I love how you put that.

I need to coin that.

Yes, please. That's brilliant. That's brilliant. Now I'm thinking about it, I'm like, okay, I'm on the vulnerability train. Is it one way? Does it go the other way? It's awesome. One way ticket to trust.

So cool.

Trust and connection.

Yeah. And that's where connection comes from. Exactly. And yet, like you said, people can tell even if they don't consciously know that someone's not being totally vulnerable. They can feel it. And again, everything. All our behaviors stem from evolution. And for hundreds and hundreds of thousands of years, if someone was being inauthentic, it's probably because they weren't going to do something nice to you. And so we're programmed to watch for that and to be scared of it. And we don't realize that's what's going on, but that's. That's what it is. And the other thing is because we're scared about how we fit in and am I good enough? And do I matter when someone else is being crazy vulnerable and therefore showing that they're not perfect, they're giving you permission not to be perfect. And that's what everybody wants.

That's so true. And then it. Isn't it such a relief when you hear how someone's really doing and you're like, oh, okay. It's okay that I've had ups and downs too. I wonder how you, how you've been during all this. I know you're in Canada, right? Are you in Toronto? Yep.

Just north of Toronto.

Just north. So how has it been for you during these crazy times that we're in? And how have you had more moments of ups and downs? And where are you finding courage through all this uncertainty?

Cool. Sure. I wish this was like an eight hour podcast. We could talk all day about this stuff you do.

Right back at you.

Thank you. So, yeah, it's been a roller coaster.

I'm in a small town called Uxbridge. It's an hour north, like 20,000 people. And I've only lived in big cities my whole life until a year ago, so it's been quite a change. But it's amazing. So a, there's less population density here so you just, you don't notice the COVID stuff as much. There's just hardly as many people. Right. And everyone's got a yard and all that. So that helps a lot. So it's in my fourth. My number four value is simplicity, so that this helps me focus on that. But I'm a pretty die hard extrovert and so that's the part that's been tricky. So it's been up and down in that regard. But I'd say over the last week it's gotten really hard.

Just not being able to talk to people. And I mean, I used to give up free hugs in downtown Toronto. We'd have big free hug signs and I can't really do that anymore, understandably. So pulling back from all that has been hard and zoom is good or Skype or whatever and phone calls are good, but it's just not quite the same. So that I've been struggling with how do I align with that connection and community value while still being safe and all that stuff.

I know. I think a lot of us are mourning the loss of the hug. I'm from California, so when I meet someone, I always say I'm a hugger. You know, those days are gone, at least for a little while, for the unforeseen future.

Yeah, yeah. Who even knows? Gosh, the handshake might disappoint.

Tell me though, about free hugs, because I have seen free huggers at variety of places that I've been. What is that experience like on the day when you put the sign on that says free hugs? Just take us to a day in the life of a free hugger.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, yeah, it's not my idea. I saw it online and stole the idea.

So we're gonna hug vicariously through this anecdote. Just so you know, for all of us who can't be hugging.

Amazing. So it's never just by myself. You don't get nearly as many hugs by yourself. You kind of maybe look a bit strange. So there's at least one other people. One other person, usually a. But we all have a sign. But it's. It's scary. And the first time especially was scary because again, you know, that fear of how am I going to be judged or what are people going to think? So are people going to look at me weird? And so you stand there with a sign and at first you feel a bit not creepy, but you just. I worry that that's what people are thinking, right? And then you start to see. It's such a fun experiment in human behavior because people will walk by and some people will look the other way.

It's like, I'm not gonna make you. I'm not gonna force it on me. But some people look the other way. Other people get a bit of a grin or they laugh or they point to their friends or other people. If it's a group of people, Sometimes they'll stop 10ft away and they'll look and you can tell they're trying to decide. And then there's. There'll be a while where no one comes for a hug. And then one. As soon as one person comes for a hug, then it's like four or five people line up to do it. And every day I've done it, there's at least. At least one person while they hug.

Thank you. I so badly needed this today. Which is. Which is so cool, right? I'm getting emotional just thinking about it. So that. That part's really cool. The other thing that's been really interesting is.

Of all the times we've done it and we've done it a lot, always in downtown Toronto, just because that's where I was living at the time, only once ever have I got a hug from a guy in a suit.

Fascinating.

I know. So what I was going to do next. And of course now it's all not okay to do and maybe I'll do it in the future. I wanted to go to the financial district where there's lots of suits and men and women, but there's lots of suits and I want to try it there and see what happens. But yeah, it really. It's such a neat experiment and you feel like a million dollars after tax afterwards. Like you just your connection value, your every. Just you just. That cup is filled. So that's selfishly. It's amazing too.

I can imagine. Talk about reciprocal transformation or selfish altruism in a way. And I mean that in a very good way that you get as much from giving and lighting people's day up so much and all that great oxytocin, don't they call it? Oh, it's the cuddle hormone. But nonetheless I think hugging could created as well. That's so cool.

Oh for sure.

I wonder with the men in suits. I wonder if you wore a suit if anything would change or if it was a woman offering free hugs. I'm not saying it has to change anything, but I just wonder. It's. You're right that probably the Suit is part of that seriousness that people wear and inherit. And it's part of that, like, rigid, more structured or more closed off way of being.

I think so. I think so. And that's, you know, everybody's at the core, everybody's the same. We want to feel like we're good enough and we matter and we belong. So they're obviously the same at the core. But yeah, maybe once, like, I even know if I dress up, I get, you know, I walk a little more fancy. And maybe they're just in that mindset when they walk by and they're always walking quick. They're always walking quick. So, like they're on a mission or they're going somewhere important.

You and Oprah have the same insight because Oprah always says that after every single interview, doesn't matter if it's with President Obama, Michelle Obama, Brad Pitt, after every single interview, when the camera stops rolling, they ask her, was that okay? Did I do okay? And she says that every guest just wants to know, did you see me? Did you hear me? Do I matter?

Totally. The do I. That's so cool. The do I matter? Like, that's. I focus so much on people's fears and coaching. Right. I'm sure you do too. Right. Just boiling that down and what's holding you back? And again, at the core I've found is I'm not good enough and I don't matter. Right. And that's why that shows up as what will people think of me? And yeah, it's everyone. It's. It's. Well, that's really neat to hear.

Right.

That's why I like to read autobiographies of successful famous people is because then you, you hear all that inside stuff, that they have all the same insecurities we do. Right. They're. Some of their decisions just have more zeros on the end.

Yeah, absolutely. That the decisions have more zeros. And the, the problems might have more zeros as well. Like in some cases that those core questions get magnified. Even Jim Carrey, I mean, I love Jim Carrey so much now more than ever with his just totally enlightened state of being. But he said, I got all the things. I climbed to the pinnacles of success and fame and wealth, and none of it made him and iota happier. And that was his big aha moment.

That's so interesting. There's an amazing movie called I am.

Yes.

Two words. I am. Do you know that one?

Well, keep going. Maybe I'm thinking of a different one.

Okay. And it's it's, it's done. It's a documentary. It's done by the director of all of Jim Carrey's early movies. I can't remember the director's name, but it's, it's, it's same thing. The director was like, wow, I got all the success, had all this money, and then I got in an accident and I realized this stuff doesn't matter. And he's trying to anyway. It's a fascinating journey. It's the director of a bunch of Jim Carrey's early movies.

I want to shift slightly to a grid I found very interesting in your book. It's this map. And on the X axis is a spectrum of avoiding to taking action. And on the Y axis is clear down to confused. And you actually say that people should take or could take the activities that are on their unhappy list and map them on this grid and from clockwise from left, all the way around. And I know this is going to be hard for listeners to picture, but maybe me saying the sentences out loud will help you place something on your unhappy list. I know what I want, but I'm not sure how to make it happen. This is what I want and this is how I'm going to get it. Which is the most empowered? You're taking action and you're clear. I keep trying things, but they don't end up being the right fit. And then the last one, I don't know what to do or even how to start figuring it out. So that last statement, if we're on the avoiding and confused part of this diagram, where does somebody start? They don't know what to do. Maybe they don't even know what their blind spots are or the ways in which they're trying to fit in to something that is no longer a fit. And they don't even know where to start. I mean, I just, I love this grid. I love this notion of taking what makes you unhappy and actually unpacking it a little bit. So I'm wondering if you can help us do that a little bit here.

So funny, because, you know, you write a book or you do something and you think it's really good, but you don't know until you hear it back. So even the fact that you like that grid is music to my ears. So I'm like, okay, I thought that was good. And it's such a simple grid and it took me forever to come up with that anyway, so I just wanted to recognize that. So, yeah, the point of we're not taking action and we're not even sure what to do. So the first step always is getting clear and clarity and action can go together. And taking action breeds clarity too, right? So I bring every and again just from experience, from working with so many people all over the world. We start with values. So figuring out what our personal values are. And there's a free values assessment on my website, but you can just Google free values assessment and there's a bunch. And then you've got those five to 10 things that are most important to you in your life. And then that can become a decision making filter so that any opportunity you think about taking or path you choose, you compare it to your values. It's like, will it help me align with these 10 things if I do this, or would it help me more aligned with these 10 things if I do that? And then we're making decisions that are more based in who we really are rather than what's less scary to do. Because that inner critic will try to convince us that the thing that fits us best is the less scary thing. Because for hundreds of thousands of years, being scared meant you were probably about to get hurt or die. So that's the first thing is figuring out what the values are. And that's that clarity part. But then again, clarity comes from doing and taking action is a great metaphor. I can't remember who I'm stealing this from, but it's somebody. And it's like, you know, if you drive from, say, Toronto to Montreal, it's about four hours. And if you drive in the middle of the night, your, your, your high beams on your car only show you about 300ft. So you can only see 300ft. If you want to see what's 600ft, you have to drive the first 300. So it's just that idea of when we sit still, we don't really learn anything, but we take that first step and the next step becomes clear. And that's why I'll relate this to your book, the subtitle, right? The only move that matters is your next one. And so it's never about what am I going to do for the rest of my life. It's like, what do I think I might want to do next? And then you do it. And then you have more clarity about what's next. You know, you drive four hours from Toronto, Montreal, and all you can ever see is 300ft. But you focus on 300ft for four hours and you make it this huge distance and you get to where you wanted to get.

I Love that visual. I've heard that one before too. And it's helpful. Yeah, the headlights. And that. The headlights only illuminate just what's right in front of you. Another way I heard it is you have to start walking down the hallway if you want to see the open doors. Just imagining a long corridor. And it's so helpful to start somewhere.

Totally. And that interesting too, that idea of the corridor. I find this with lots of people, but especially younger people when they're making those big school decisions or careers, they feel like I've got all these doors open. I've just heard this lots of times. I've got all these doors open and I don't know which one to go through. And they're so scared because they think that once they go through that door and pick that path, the door closes and it's like, no, it doesn't. You can open that sucker up again. If you don't like what's in that room, you can go down the hall and you can go through another door.

And that's. It was just. I mean, I was 14, I think the first time one of my teachers said, well, you should be figuring out now what you want to do for the rest of your life. I'm like, are you kidding me? I don't even shave and you're telling me I should be figuring what I do. And so we never.

I know. And then how. Isn't it weird how skewed it is that these days we're taught in middle school or high school to start shaping our extra extracurriculars to get into college. And when we're in college, it's to shape your internships and your extracurriculars to get the right job. And it's just everything going full circle back toward people pleasing. I mean, this is ingrained into us through so much of our systems in society and education around do this to get that. Not, don't do this because you enjoy it. I mean, yeah, yeah, sure, sure. If you're going to write a college application, take a meaningful summer trip that you will enjoy and that's going to look good on your application. It's just I feel that we're taught at such a young age to shape ourselves for the approval of others or the great resume gods in the sky. And yeah.

It'S hard to break free from totally.

And I think the secret to happiness, fulfillment, everything is always making decisions that align with your values and continually getting out of your comfort zone. And I find that those two things together because that's the clarity in the action, those two things together. Oh my gosh, literally everything works out as good as it can. It's never going to be perfect.

What a perfect note. To close out this conversation just what? Let's just end on the secret to life. You know, I think that's great. The secret to life and happiness. Billy, if you could give listeners one piece of homework or experiment around getting out of their comfort zone this week, what would it be?

Yeah, it would be to figure out what your values are.

And then live true to that. And I base on everything. I look at my values every other day and it's like, which one do I not feel aligned with? What can I do to bump that up? So, yeah, just I challenge people to become a little more self aware and the values is a great way to do that. Any assessment can help. Or even asking your friends, like, what am I good at? If I was no longer in your life, what would you miss? What do you think I could do to be even happier? Like just asking those questions. And that is super courageous because we're worried about what's going to come back. So I gave you a couple things there, but I guess people can pick.

I like it. I'm also going to add stretching the values into the comfort zone conversation. I would encourage listeners to ask the courageous or beautiful question, where am I not honoring my values? Like where? What value do I not even want to admit to myself or others that I'm not currently honoring? Like, what value just got sidelined or is in a blind spot where, yes, this thing is important to you, but you're afraid to shine the light on it somehow? Because I think a lot of pivot listeners have probably done values exercises. Where I think it's hard is when your value seems to conflict with some other role or identity that you've taken on in your life or your work. And then, well, now what? And I think for. So I think I can speak for myself. There are some times where I just don't even see the ways in which I'm not honoring my values. Until something like a pandemic hits and then everything goes on pause and we have this major chance to pause and reflect totally.

The world is like, look, you're not getting this. So I'm going to give you this.

Force you to figure it out.

Yeah, like, hello, you're not listening to me. So you have to send this message a little louder.

The wake up call. No. And lots of times a huge reason why people just stay so busy is because then they don't have to reflect on what values they're not aligned with because as soon as they reflect on it, they realize maybe that they need to do something or something needs to change. And we're terrified to change anything. So if I stay busy, I don't have to think about that stuff.

Yes, Jennifer Longmore. She has a podcast called the Seven Figure Club. Fellow Canadian. She just did an episode on how leaders sometimes hide behind their busyness. And in what ways are you hiding behind your busyness?

Right, Yep. I agree. And I what I've found is that leaders or anyone who is really busy are really busy. But they don't get they're able to admit what they're not good at or they don't fly off the handle when something doesn't go well. Those people are aligned with their values and they're maybe not hiding as much as those people who are doing really well, but they fly off the handle. They have a short temper.

In my opinion. They're not dealing with something.

Right. I'm going to put the link to that episode I just mentioned in the show notes. It's called Busy is a Buzzkill for Seven Figures.

Nice.

Yeah. Billy, where can people find you if they want to check out your work and keep in touch?

Of course. Yes. So my website is couragecrusade.com so couragecrusade.com and the values assessment is there. There's some other stuff and you can contact me there and you can email me. Any of your listeners can email me anytime about anything. I love all these conversations.

Awesome. Thank you so much. This has been really fun and thank you for being you. It really is unique and it really did stand out in that call with our dear friend Michael Bunge Stanier. So I'm really happy to be connected.

Awesome. Me too. And thanks for having me. It was a fun conversation.

Likewise. Thank you Billy. Thanks everybody for listening.

Thanks so much for listening to this episode of the Pivot podcast. Make sure you don't miss an episode or my insider tips and templates by signing up for Pivot List, a curated twice monthly newsletter where I share the inside scoop on what I'm reading, watching, listening to and the latest tools I'm geeking out on. Sign up@pivotmethod.com pivotlist get show notes from this episode@pivotal method.com podcast and connect with me on Twitter at Jenny Blake.

Remember, build first, then your courage will follow. Hasn't it always.