237: Rest Easy with Ximena Vengoechea

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I really think that our life experiences inform our work in some way and so the more that we give ourselves the chance to explore those things, I think the more rested we feel and eventually like, the more interesting our work becomes because it does tend to make its way back.

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Welcome back Free Timers. I am so excited to be here today with Ximena Venguichea. She is a researcher, writer and illustrator who previously worked at Pinterest, LinkedIn and Twitter and currently advises startups and executives on things like user research, executive communication and resting well. She's the author of Listen like youe Mean Reclaiming the Lost Art of True Connection. I'll link to that pivot conversation in the show notes and today we're talking about her beautiful brand new book Rest Easy. Discover Calm and Abundance through the Radical Power of Rest. Ximena, welcome to the show.

Thank you so much for having me.

I started by telling you before you record that Chronicle Books is the most perfect publisher for you because you have the most beautiful drawings and graphics and visual style and Chronicle has always made the most beautiful gift like books. This is hardcover. There's full color on the inside, there's a gloss. What is it? A purple foil on the title. And you said something to me that might be interesting to just kick off with, which is that it was such a relief to work with a publisher who had a design sensibility.

Yes, it was super fun and made the whole process easy when you are working with someone who is as interested in what things look like on the page and how the information is going to be presented. My background is in user research, so thinking about like the information in an app and how is that presented and how do you make it understandable and easy to follow? And so I think like that also when I'm thinking about books, not only what is the message that I'm trying to convey, but is there a different way of expressing it? I like to mix and match the text with illustrations and then working with a publisher that is super aligned with that vision of, okay, yeah, like, how do we look at this not just as a book, but as a beautiful object? And I remember saying early on, like, I really want this book to feel relaxing. This is a book about rest. I want you to pick it up and like, it's an exhale that you hold it in your hands and go, ah, yes. And so it was wonderful to have a partner who kind of took that vision and said, like, yes, we agree, like, let's see how we can play around with this and just come up with a couple of versions until we landed on this one.

I have to say, as a reader, that was definitely my experience. It would be ironic if it was a book about rest. And yet it was just your standard academic text, heavy business tome. And this one, even right off the bat on the page that says, what is rest? There's just half a page of white space and then three small paragraphs. So the experience of it. I was going to say that too. You're taking readers on a learning journey, but also an experiential journey that is restful, that's literally is easy on the eyes to go through this material.

I'm so glad that it feels that way because we worked hard on that. And even just the colors for folks who don't have it in front of them, there's purple and blue and this kind of like soft green, turquoise, ish. And they're all cooling, relaxing, calming colors that was also really deliberate to help exude that feeling of calm.

You also had an ethos working on the book that the exercises you were going to suggest for people or to encourage readers to try had a few key criteria, such as being mostly free, easy to do, don't take a lot of time. Can you share more about what was important to you about setting that framework for yourself before getting to restful suggestions for readers?

Definitely. I mean, listen, I have been told multiple times throughout my life that I need to rest more, relax more, because I am the type of person who is very go, go, go. And so it was important for me personally, and I also thought for someone like me, who is similarly kind of always in go mode, to have these rest practices feel accessible. The last thing I want to do is make it feel like a chore, is make you feel like rest is another thing that you have to put on your list of to dos and something that you don't look forward to. And so I thought about what are the elements that change something from feeling like a chore or an obligation to something that you actually meaningfully want to do and can do. And that's when I came up with that set of criteria of, okay, it has to be enjoyable to some degree, fun to some degree. That's going to be personal. What's fun for you might be different than what's fun for me. And that's fine. That's in fact, as it should be. It should be fairly affordable. I don't want things like cost to get in the way of being able to rest or for people to feel like they're they can only get rest if they book a fancy spa. I love fancy spas, don't get me wrong. But we also need to have other ways of incorporating rest into our lives every day. And so I think anything that we can do to make it simpler, easier, more accessible, more delightful even to get rest is going to work in our favor.

What was your relationship to rest before you started working on this book?

I would say that it was something that I thought of as a to do for later. It was something that I thought of as like, okay, I have XYZ project. I have to work on this project or this book or this home, responsibility, whatever it is. And then later I will get a break after all of that. I will get to relax. Something that I earned in the book. I call this a gold star rester. Somebody who is really focused on getting things done, achieving, crossing those things off the to do list. And then later you sort of have earned the right to relax once all of those things are done. Unfortunately, the reality is there's always more that you can be doing. And so when you put rest at the bottom of the list, it usually just keeps kind of getting punted further and further down.

I loved those rest profiles. There's five of them and they're on a spectrum from embracing rest to rejecting it. They are intuitive resters, functional wresters, gold star resters, anti resters, and deprived resters. Let's talk about this anti rest cohort because this does go with hustle culture, the cult of busyness. I'm even interested to hear about productivity dysmorphia that you mention. You highlight the fact that in the 18th and early 19th century, leisure time was for the wealthy, like leisure time, was the status symbol, highly coveted status symbol, that the wealthy use their time to entertain and to be entertained, not work themselves to the bone. Leisure was the status symbol, not busyness. So how did we get here to where we have anti resters who say things like they'll sleep when they're dead. And I mean even those of us that say that we reject that culture. I too feel like, oh, I didn't earn this massage if my body is not sore from working out, or I haven't just finished a big work project. I'm not the type that just schedules a regular massage. And I have friends that do, and I admire them for it. I'd love if you could just share more about those who reject rest and what you have found. Some of the most common reasons are.

It is an interesting shift and a lot of it has to do particularly with American culture and this sort of Protestant work ethic, this idea that to work is to be good, to work is to be worthy, to work is to have a kind of moral goodness to you. And then of course, the opposite becomes to rest, to be idle. All of those things have come with a negative connotation. If you say that working is good, then therefore not working must be bad. Laziness is bad. Being idle, right? There's that phrase, idleness is the devil's workshop, right? It's like only bad things can happen from being still, which rationally we know is not true. But this kind of messaging has been baked into the culture even without thinking it, even if you have never thought about your connection to this idea of the Protestant work ethic, it's so part of American culture that it's hard not to impact us. And I think too there's so many other factors today that contribute to that. From media profiles of CEOs outlining the 10 things they do before they even get to the office to start their day, or the way that we perform our lives on social media. So there's a lot that's contributing to this culture. And at its most extreme, you do have these anti resters who have really, really internalized the idea that their worth is directly tied to their output. So in whatever their job is, they want to prove that they're working and have the thing, you know, the project, the emails, whatever it is, that is the mark of success, that is the mark of being good, being worthy, et cetera. And it can be hard to kind of step back from that kind of thinking and be uncomfortable. And it's also true that again, In American society, like, we do reward that behavior. Like, we like the person who is hustling or working super hard. We have these stories. Honestly, most of our, like, immigrant stories of success are that right. It's like they came from nothing. They worked really hard. They created this business. We love the work hard ethos. And yet it sort of ignores the fact that there are other things going into success. Right. It's not just hard work. It's also privilege. It's also the right timing. It's a number of things, but it can be hard to pull that apart. And it's sometimes easier to say, well, I just need to work harder. Like, that's how I'm going to get this done. Because also that's within our control. So it's sort of understandable that that's where we would throw our weight. Unfortunately, it doesn't give us a ton of wiggle room for being a full person who also needs rest.

How does that relate to productivity dysmorphia? And tell us what that is.

So productivity dysmorphia is this idea. It's sort of the experience when you have achieved something, you have the objective achievement, the thing that you did, versus your subjective experience of it. And productivity dysmorphia happens when there's a gulf between those. So if you, let's say, do a great job on a project or you hit some hiring goal, or in my case, when I published my first book, these are objective achievements. If you feel like, wow, I did that, and you really take a moment to celebrate, and you really take a moment to recognize your efforts, that's great. But what we're seeing happen is that sometimes we genuinely can't even feel that that was an achievement sometimes. So when I published my first book, my immediate thought was, okay, what's next? Instead of feeling, wow, I spent two years on that. How amazing is it that this idea is now a book? I think I sort of, like, knew that on some level, but I didn't really feel it. I hadn't internalized that all of this effort had gone in and that I'd actually accomplished something meaningful. I was already onto the next thing. And so that's an example of productivity dysmorphia, where we're just super disconnected from our own effort and from our output as more than something to just cross off the list. And there's a journalist who coined the term Ana Cogiarato. And she. In her research, she says it really comes from a mix of. Of burnout. So when you're Burnt out. You are really disconnected from your work. Stress and imposter syndrome, or maybe anxiety and imposter syndrome. It's sort of this, like, disconnect from what you did and what you feel about the work that you did. You think, okay, I'm not connected to it, or like, it wasn't really me. You know, that imposter syndrome thing of, like, oh, it wasn't that hard, or I didn't really know what I was doing anyway. And then we start to discount our efforts, which can be pretty harmful, because we need those moments of celebration to keep going.

When you said that you have moved on to what's next so quickly after your first book launched, what was the result of that? Because I think so many of us have done that and had that experience where even if we felt proud, that achievement sense lasts for a day or two, and then we already just move on. Because in a way, that's what our nervous system is trained for and our neural pathways. And so what was the result of that for you? Like, moving on almost too quickly without building in adequate time for rest to reflect such a monumental achievement and project?

I think at first, I didn't realize. At first I was so focused on what came next. I was all plans and ideas and had a bunch of other things that I wanted to do, things I wanted to write about, projects I wanted to take on. And there is a certain momentum that comes with that. I think anyone who's a planner or an ideas person kind of knows, especially those early stages are intoxicating in a way, when you're just kind of dreaming. But then when it came time to actually start to take those ideas into the next step, I think that's where I started to feel that I had moved too fast, that I hadn't given myself that space really to appreciate my efforts, recognize my efforts, because I was tired and I was not as motivated as I thought I would be to take on all of these things. And that was confusing to feel that way, to feel like, but I want to do all these things. And yet, wait, why am I so tired? Why am I so unmotivated? This feels a little bit off. And that was one of the entry points into really understanding this a little bit better for myself.

We'll be right back, just after this.

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Some would say working on a book itself is not an inherently restful project. You and I have a similar vision around how we work, and I really tried when I was writing Free time to let it be easy, let it be fun, be grateful. Like, I just tried not to complain about how hard writing a book is. But of course, if you're going to choose a topic, the topic will also test you. So I'm curious how you shifted your approach when you were writing Rest Easy and what were some of those cosmic two by fours just kind of flacking you over the head, being like, wait a minute, you're writing a book on this? Because I know those always happen to fortify you so that by the time the book comes out, you've really lived the message.

Yes, for sure. The big thing that I did differently this time around, which was really helpful and made it a far less painful experience, is that I left my nine to five. So the first book I wrote while I was working my nine to five, I was also pregnant and then I had my son. So throughout my maternity leave I was editing. And then the pandemic happened. There were a bunch of things, both personal and sort of on a collective scale, that made getting that book out the door super challenging. This time around, I thought, I am not doing that again. Like, that was way too much. And my husband agreed it was too much at once. And so being able to step away from my nine to five after a lot of hand wringing and visits with my therapist of am I really gonna do this? And looking at finances, you know, finally being able to make that call.

It was really such a gift to be able to concentrate on the book in a way that I just hadn't been able to for the first book. The first book was very much in nights and weekends and mornings and commuting time, all of that. It was kind of a book done in fits and starts by necessity, and this book had more space. I got to breathe through the process. And so that was really just a gift.

And as we record this, it's two weeks prior to the launch. So do you have any rest activities planned for after the book comes out?

I do, yes. Well, first this time I am having a launch event, which my first book came out during the pandemic, so that wasn't really possible. So that's going to be a nice marker of the moment and a way to celebrate. And then I got a gift certificate for a massage like, I don't know, nine months ago. And I decided I was going to save it for right after the book launch. So I have a little spa day to help celebrate that and ease me out of all of that. And then I'm also planning a girls trip with some friends, so I think all of those will be really restorative.

And there's that gold star again. It's like, oh, write and launch a book and then you can book the massage.

I mean, I have had massages in the meantime, but this is a pretty nice one. So I did want to save it. Yes.

That's amazing. I always, when I would talk to people who were working on their first book, I would say, one month after your book launches, block two weeks off of your calendar. Don't let anyone schedule over it, including yourself. Trust me. And I would just say, you'll do your launch. You'll say yes to everything in the window because it's so exciting and you don't want to miss any opportunities. But I was like, just take my word for it. From now, block off two weeks, one month after the launch. You will thank me later because great advice. Right around the time you're going to want to collapse and you just can't imagine talking to another single person. And it's just so necessary to actually think about this and build it in in advance. That's the thing that I would say is a unique skill that we have as business owners. We're doing that for other parts of the business. We need to be able to do it for ourselves too.

Totally. Yes. I 100% agree. Just trying to find ways to build these moments in for ourselves in the future. And then ideally, you're also building little moments in every day too. So for me, that looks like reading fiction. Like I sort of rediscovered my love of fiction during this whole research process. And it's something that I find really relaxing. It transports me to a different world. It is honestly helping my attention span because I'm not on my phone in between I read physical books. And so those are Little things that I'm doing all in the lead up and will continue doing afterwards. So it's nice to kind of have some things that you plan in advance to help find those moments of relaxation. And then also I think about it as like, what are some preventative? You don't want to get to spa day too exhausted. You don't want to get to the girls trip so exhausted that you can't enjoy it. And so thinking about those little preventative moments as well, to help find ease, even if it's a small moment in every day.

Speaking of small moments, there's a section on honoring tiny transition time. What do you mean by that?

I have a bad habit. I think I'm not the only one, but I have a bad habit of taking my phone from one room to the next. So I work from home, I might be doing some work, and then I want a snack, go to the kitchen, or need to take my dog out. And just reflexively I grab my phone and use that transition from one room to the next to see what notifications I've missed or to pull to refresh my email just in case. And there's no reason for this. This is just a bad habit that I've developed. But what I miss out on every time I do that is this moment, this small transition that I do multiple times a day. And every time I'm filling it with this totally banal, like, not super helpful, somewhat draining, reflexive action of being on my phone. And so when I noticed that, I really tried to cut down on that. I'm still working on it. These are all works in progress. But to really notice. What am I doing? Okay, I'm grabbing my phone. Why am I doing that? Okay, I don't even need to really do that. Do I still want to open my phone? Do I still want to check these messages? And trying to kind of create a new set of habits, a new set of behaviors that allow me to actually just be present when I move from one room to the next. Think about something when I move from one room to the next, like, let my thoughts do their thing, notice the sunlight in the kitchen, whatever it may be. And so I really encourage kind of looking for these, like, tiny transition moments, whatever yours are, and seeing if there are ways where you can kind of open things up a little bit. For me, that's literally like looking up instead of looking down at my phone. And I think we all have versions of these because they're just these tiny pockets that can create a little moment of rest every Day.

I used to feel stressed when we had Ryder. He was a puppy in 2020. Like we got him right before the pandemic hit. And I felt so stressed trying to make time to take him out. I'm like, this is taking so much time, three hours a day sometimes. He has a lot of energy. And certainly in the afternoons I would leave around, I don't know, 2:30 or 3 and go, how am I supposed to make time for this? And I was grumpy for a while and then eventually I realized, oh, this time of me sitting in the grass on a hill under trees, playing with Ryder is so good for me too. And that's when I integrate the day. And that's when I get out of these never ending inboxes and notifications and devices like you said. And I started to realize, oh, I'm actually having ideas on that hill. I'm solving problems in a way not that I would need to be working. I could easily just be resting or playing. But also, one would argue that some of the more important work that's happening, it just doesn't look like work in front of the laptop or hunched over on my phone.

100%. Yeah. I think we have this idea, this picture of what working looks like, and we put a lot of pressure on ourselves to always be doing that. But anytime you give your brain a break, it's going to keep doing things for you, even when it's in that rest mode. This is why we have some of our best ideas in the shower. We're not on our devices in the shower. We're not preoccupied with something else. And your mind just can do its thing and unlock these solutions or do some creative problem solving or come up with a new idea. And I think any time that we can give ourselves that space is going to be meaningful, potentially productive, certainly restful.

You also talk about creative waiting, which I thought was interesting, and I had to do a double take. I thought, wait, is it creative writing?

No, it's creative waiting, not a typo.

Yeah.

Yes. So this idea comes from Rob Walker, who has this great book, the Art of Noticing, and a newsletter by the same name, which is really all about paying attention and paying attention to what we're paying attention to. And he has this idea of creative waiting, which I think is just a great way to again, kind of get out of our heads for a minute and enjoy, be present, take things in as they come. And so he talks about sometimes you show up early to an appointment or maybe you're on time. And the other person is running late, you find that you have this new pocket of time. What often happens for many of us is we fill that time with pull out our phone, we send off a few emails, we try and do something productive with that time. And his suggestion, which I love, is to use that time for creative waiting instead. And so while you're waiting, it's observing what's happening around you. It's noticing something like all the shades of red in a room or making a little story in your head about the parents and their kid at the doctor's office, like why are they here? It's noticing and being aware of your environment in a way that brings you out of your head, out of your anxieties, out of your mental to do list, certainly out of your fixation on your device. And this also creates a sense of ease and it kind of makes time feel differently. You know, when you wait, like if you have an unexpected moment where you're waiting, it can feel like, ugh, this is so annoying, I don't want to deal with this. And it sort of turns it into a gift where you suddenly have this time that you didn't have before. So instead of it being a negative, it's this positive where you just had a moment of creative waiting, you just had a moment of rest that wasn't penciled into your day and you got it. How wonderful. And so I love that reframing and I try and do that in my own life.

The other thing I wanted to ask you about is paid play. You're now on your own. You're independent after leaving your full time job and you talk about the risks a little bit that I quote. In an age of constant pressure to monetize our hobbies and find a job that loves us back and pays us well, does commodifying a hobby or working at a job you love count as play? And your answer is no, it's not really pure play anymore. That even if some of us kind of eventually or accidentally make money from play, once there's money involved, it's not necessarily the thing that's going to fill our cup back up. So I'm curious if you're experiencing that at all or just the risks. I feel like for a lot of listeners and free timers, we are really connected to our businesses and we are really passionate about the creative things that we produce and put out into the world. And yet, even if they're the things we love to do as a kid, something about getting paid or having to be part of the business Might move it from the play and rest column into something else.

Yes. So I think that anytime you add up a paycheck or some kind of deadline or expectation that it's tied to your bank account or you owe somebody something in that way. Yeah, it takes some of the joy out of it, no matter how much you enjoy your work. I've worked several jobs that I've loved that I can really say that was the perfect role for me. But when you add that paid component to it, it does take a little bit away from it. There was a time where I was thinking about, should I become a full time writer? Not necessarily author, but writer. And so I took a lot of paid writing gigs on the side of my 9 to 5. And I really quickly realized I hated it. It turned to this thing that I was enjoying doing at my own pace, on my own, exploring themes that I was interested in into something that was a job that I had to be accountable for, that I had to figure out, was I going to write a piece that was actually going to make money, or was it going to be something that I was interested in but wasn't going to bring very much in? It just gets harder. And so for other people, it doesn't mean that you shouldn't pursue the thing that you love and also try and make a business out of it. That's great. I think that's absolutely a viable path. What it means is that we have to find another space to play in. So if you love writing and then you start to write for a living, or you love drawing and then you start to draw for a living, or if you love podcasts and then you start to podcast for a living. Amazing. And also, what's going to be your new play space? What's going to be your new just for you hobby? For me, like after years of just reading nonfiction, because I was writing nonfiction, that is part of where the fiction reading comes in. It's something that I'm not trying to monetize in any way. It is pure pleasure. And I'm also always looking for, like, is there a textile class or something, like really different. That again, has nothing to do with how I'm trying to earn my living, because it's restful. And I also think all of this stuff eventually comes back to our work. It just naturally will find its way back. Especially if you're in a creative field, you're learning things in different spaces, you're not taking it as seriously. And then you might get some insight, like a month later, a year later, 10 years later. I really think that our life experiences inform our work in some way. And so the more that we give ourselves the chance to explore those things, I think the more rested we feel and eventually like, the more interesting our work becomes because it does tend to make its way back.

We'll be right back just after this.

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We should also say that even though we didn't get into it too much today, there's a lot we can do as individuals to rest. And then there's also systemic cultural family systems. Like there's all kinds of other bigger things at play. So this has been something that I've tried to raise my own awareness on over the last few years, just in general, where sometimes I think we take on so much responsibility as individuals and that's good because we're the only ones that could change our lives and get enough sleep and do things like that. And there are still sometimes relentless pressures coming from other spheres of influence that I don't know that I think just raising awareness around that like you do so well in the book, can say, listen, it's not just you if you're feeling exhausted right now. There's also all these economic factors in America. The fact that our health insurance is tied to our jobs and even then is so abysmally horrible, it's challenging. There are just bigger things at work that might be contributing to a sense of tiredness, burnout, overwhelm, et cetera.

Yeah. And I think it's really important to make space for that because otherwise it can be too easy to blame ourselves, to think that we are the problem. And to some degree, like, yeah, maybe you do have bad habits. Right. Maybe you do things that are self sabotaging in nature and are your own worst enemy when it comes to Getting the rest you need. There may be things that fit that category. And also there are a lot of other bigger than you issues that contribute to your exhaustion or your burnout. Whether it's at the employee level of a job or a job culture or societal expectations around parents and how they manage their workloads or their ability to watch their kids, there's so many levels of this that trickle down and I think we don't always realize that. And it's very easy to beat ourselves up for what's within our control. But just the more that we can kind of zoom out a little bit and see the bigger picture, I think is useful because this is a collective issue that we all have to solve in some way. It also is a way of giving ourselves some grace and recognizing that we can make small changes in our everyday. And also bigger changes need to happen too.

Of everything in the book, having lived this for so long, as you work on it, what do you still find challenging or most challenging?

Hmm. I think this is probably not too surprising, but I think my relationship with my device is something that I'm always working on. And I mean, I worked in tech for a long time. I'm very familiar with how these apps are designed and all the sort of like extra little bells and whistles that are being used to keep me coming back. And it's still hard. Like I can recognize those patterns and still find them challenging. And so I'm always paying attention to that. I also have a four year old, so I'm always thinking about like, oh God, I don't want him to see me, you know, all this all the time either. So I have plenty of good reasons to be aware of that. And I think awareness is a good initial step. And then I'm always trying to just kind of chip away at that bad habit.

And having a four year old in and of itself would necessitate a lot of counterbalancing to get the rest you need, I would imagine.

Yes. Thankfully though, we're past the infant phase and the two year old phase. I feel like for I'm like, okay, this is great. Like, school helps. Yes. I really do think that, like when people ask me, what are the things that were most helpful on your rest journey? There are small things like reading and working on my bedtime routine. And then there are also big things like, well, my son is now in school, so. So that helps too.

And we should say after almost 40 minutes in, I told listeners about the what is rest Page, but we never actually said it. So you Define it so well. Rest is a state of being in which nothing is required of us. It is a time where we can just be.

Yeah, there's always more that we can do. Whatever that means to you, whether that's running your own business or keeping your household run like a business, whatever that means to you, there's always more that we can do. But I think reconnecting with ourselves as beings, you're a person with a mind and a body and a spirit and you don't have to always be doing more. Sometimes it is enough to just be. And looking for ways to tap into that feeling, whether it's something that's going to calm you down or something that's going to energize you. I think of those as kind of the two sides of the rest coin and just making more space for that.

We should say on the opposite side, you have this great self portrait. Me when I'm rested with flowers and hearts. It says cool, calm, collected and loving. And then me when I'm not and there's clouds and lightning, exclamation marks. And you say frantic, stressed and short fused. I feel like some listeners probably didn't even click on this episode because they're like rest, you know, like an anti rester is unlikely to listen at all. But there is a reason for all this talk and there's a reason it's important. And I think those of us who get to our wits end or feel short fused or feel like we're not showing up in the world as our best selves. This is when we need these loving reminders to rest and the different types of rest and the rest profiles and even the feelings we didn't talk about it, but the guilt or shame or anything that. The baggage that can come with it as well. So as we close out, if you could give fellow free timers a permission slip to do something differently or drop something altogether, what would it be?

I would say permission to play. Permission to try an activity that you loved as a kid. To just do something for no other reason than pure play enjoyment and see what that is for you and experiment. If you're not sure, you know, try a few things, but permission to play.

I love your permission to yourself to read fiction because I used to see that as well as a reward. And I always made myself read. I probably read 95% nonfiction and even then I have a pen. Now I'm marking marginalia. I'm learning something. It's not a state of just pure being, it's learning two different things, even if it's fun. So I'm going to also give us all a permission slip to read more fiction just for the fun of it.

I love it. Tell me what you're reading next.

I will. Well, my friend Jamie just launched a book called Main Character Energy, her first novel. So I'm going to have her on the podcast soon. And I love that, even the title alone, as a reminder to be the main character in our own lives.

Yeah, sounds super intriguing.

Thank you so much for being here, Ximena. Oh, we didn't even talk about it, but when you tell us where we can find you and keep in touch, tell us about your limited series podcast too.

Oh, yes, all of that. You can find out more on my website, Ximena Vanguachea.com and you can find my books and my newsletter and my social. And then you can also find this limited series podcast that I'm doing, which is all about rest and is sort of a companion to my book Rest Easy, where we dig into some of this stuff a little bit deeper with authors and creative thinkers and doers and just try and understand how rest and play and work kind of all swirl together for some really interesting and creative folks.

The fact that it's a limited series, is that on purpose to give you permission or to make it a more restful project in some way?

Yeah, totally. It's also a way for me to play. It's a way for me to try out this podcast space, which I've always been interested in, without over committing, without feeling like I have to find the idea. That's the one. It's something that I'm excited about and I get to kind of treat this as a sandbox of creativity and then we'll see what happens next.

That's so cool. And that's cool too, because instead of having to think about, like, marrying a podcast for the next 10 years, a limited series, you can have fun with the format. And I know you're going to do that with this one, but it's like, oh, it's a finite number of episodes. It can have a cohesive sound and I can't wait to listen.

Oh, thank you.

Yeah. So free timers, grab your copy of Rest Easy wherever you buy your books. Discover calm and abundance through the radical power of rest. Oh, my goodness. I have to ask you one final question, because this is the thing, the page I was most curious about. Sorry, listeners, squeezing in a PS Invite abundance. This phrase. I love how to invite abundance. That's kind of how you lead into the conclusion. But can you connect the dot for me to Resting Easy with abundance?

Yeah, I think that when we make space for rest, what we're really doing is creating space for more abundance in our lives in general. Like when you're so busy, you're sort of experiencing time in all these fits and starts, these bursts. It feels like time is flying because you're just moving from one thing to another. And when you stop and you have these moments of rest, it makes time feel so much more expansive and abundant and and easeful. And I think that's the feeling that we all want to create a little bit more of in our lives and find little rest rituals that open things up. So I really think of rest as people can't see me now, but I'm sort of like opening up my hands and moving it around because I think it does create this space, this wonderful abundance and ease in place of this feeling of compression. And so that's a shift that I'm encouraging and I hope that people can find.

I love it. What a beautiful place to close out. Thank you so much again, Ximena, and thank you everybody for listening.

Thanks Jenny.

If you've listened this far, you get a gold star.

Thank you.

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