240: The Beauty of Conflict with CrisMarie Campbell and Susan Clarke

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Hello my friends. Oh boy, did I just relearn a really tough lesson about podcasting. Always check your mic inputs when you're switching software. I've been bouncing around from Garageband to Descript for solo shows and then Skype with Call recorder and Zoom. Long story short, when I interviewed today's guests, who I know you are going to adore, Susan and Chris Marie Campbell, I only realized after the fact that it was not picking up my good mic. So you're going to hear a lot of room noise more than usual on my end. Please bear with me because they have so many gems, they're so wise, so intelligent, so many helpful pointers for the beauty of Conflict and why it can create tremendous transformation in our intimate relationships in teams and in society. I hope you enjoy this episode despite the less than optimal audio quality, and I promise to do better if you want to learn how to avoid mistakes like this one. Things that I've learned the hard way in five years of podcasting. Don't forget, Heart of Podcasting is coming right up tomorrow, Thursday, June 25th. You can learn more and it's not too late to join us. Pivotmethod.com heart now onto today's show.

Hello everybody. I am delighted and excited to be here today with Chris Marie Campbell and Susan B. Clark. They are the authors of their most recent book, the Beauty of Conflict for igniting passion, intimacy and connection in your relationship, and their previous book, the Beauty with Pain crossed out of harnessing your team's competitive advantage. Chris Marie and Susan are amazing. I already got to say hi on video before we hit record. This is the first time we're meeting, but they worked with Alexander Franzen, who's a two time guest of the Pivot podcast through her publishing imprint Tiny Press. On the most recent book, they have been life and business partners for over 20 years. They've spoken at TEDx events, they've worked with the biggest companies you can imagine. They've done dozens of workshops both for companies and couples and they're just incredible people. Susan has a Master's degree in Applied behavioral science and worked as a family therapist, relationship and equity coach, which I can't wait to hear about. Business consultant for over 20 years. And Chris Marie has several coaching certifications. Even earned a spot on the US Women's Blowing team and competed in the Olympics. Chris Marie and Susan, welcome to the show.

Oh, we are thrilled to be here.

This is Chris Marie and Susan. Yes. Excited to join you. Loved hearing that. There's a connection. I know, Alex.

Me too.

It's so fun.

Such a small world. And your book is beautiful. So we can all give a shout out to TinyPress because it is gorgeous.

Yes, it is. Yes, we are very pleased with it.

Yes.

I always appreciate on a show with more than two people, how you both just introduced yourself. Maybe we could even do it one more time so listeners will be able to associate.

Yes, this is Chris Marie Campbell. I'm the Olympic athlete.

Amazing.

I'm Susan Clark and I'm the other one. No, I'm just kidding. The one who wanted to be the Olympic athlete, but Equus coach and marriage and family therapist.

Yeah.

Well, you'll be happy to know I did. One of my favorite episodes is what horse whispering and entrepreneurship have in common.

So neat.

Remind me to go there later in the conversation.

Oh, sure.

Yes.

The very title of these books, the Beauty of Conflict is it's self. Interesting and almost a contradiction because I think it's. Is it Chris Marie? Now I have to look at my notes. I am so conflict averse, it's not even funny. And I think, who was it? Was it Chris Marie or Susan who said that?

Chris Marie. I am the conflict avoider.

Oh, my gosh. And that it manifests in people pleasing and achievement. Omg. So I think for so many people, as soon as they even hear the word conflict, there's almost allergy.

Like, no.

Whatever it takes to just keep peace. And I know certainly American culture even has a politeness value. Whereas my husband, who's Lebanese, my friend who's Italian, their families yell at each other like crazy, but then the pressure valve is released. So I'm wondering if you could just start with what inspired you to dedicate your life's work to conflict, given that it can be such a sensitive area for so many people.

Well, I think even that, Jenny, it is a sensitive area for so many people. And for me, this is Chris Marie talking. I definitely grew up wanting to keep everything smooth. Like a good relationship was one where nothing happened. We were just always getting along. And that's what I thought was good because I was Raised with an army colonel dad who was an alcoholic. He was angry and every night at dinner was like running the gauntlet, hoping he wouldn't get upset because when he did, he was pretty mean and could, could every once in a while be violent. And my older sister really liked to press his buttons. So I took it upon myself that I was going to do everything I could to ask a question, change the subject, rephrase what my sister said. So I became a professional conflict avoider. And I became so. I was so intimidated by him that I focused on what does this man need me to do? And I'm going to do it. So that's the people pleasing and wanted. He wanted an achieving daughter. So that took me to the Olympics. It took me to a Boeing flight test engineer. I went back and got my mba, worked at Arthur Andersen. And I was really just focused on pleasing my bosses, keeping the peace. And it was.

It wound up, actually, when I was at Arthur Andersen, I got blamed for a project because I didn't speak up. My manager, we had a. I was leading a team of six people at a client and my manager came in, we had our strategy. My manager came in and said, that's not what you should do. You should change your strategy. And I said in my head, I thought, that's not going to solve the client's problem. But I didn't say that. I said, I asked a question. Do you think that's going to solve the client's problem? And he said, yes, get to work. And I was catapulted back to my dad's dinner table. So we did what he said at the end of the six months, we did not solve the client's problem. And the vice president basically in front of all the partners at Arthur Anderson, because we had this big meeting. And he said, well, you know that project Chris Marie led, that was a disaster, a complete disaster. And I thought, oh my gosh, I've got to figure out how to do this differently. I don't want to keep knowing, you know, having an opinion and not speaking up because I'm intimidated by the other person on the other side. And shortly thereafter, I met Susan. And she dealt with a group in conflict in a whole different way. I mean, there was a bully in the room. She stood up with him. She looked calm and cool, but she was real in it. And I thought, I want to be authentic and be able to be me and speak up. And that's really. It's been my life's work. I was in my mid-30s then and I'm in my mid-50s now, so that's a little bit about me in the whole.

I really appreciate hearing your story. And it is so interesting how conflict that we observe as children shapes us as adults. And for me, too, I think now I can put words to being a highly sensitive child and an empathic person. And any parents are going to fight. You know, my parents got divorced when I was five. But when they would fight, whether it was pre divorce or after, I felt like the sky was faulty. I felt, and I've heard it described as terror for children who don't know what's going on. And now as an adult, I can see, oh, I fight with my husband, you know, but the very first fight I had with my husband, I went into almost a state of shock. I couldn't tolerate it because it just triggered those emotions of the sky is falling. That's just the best way I can put it. And then, yes, there's that subtle reorientation of, oh, then a good relationship is where we keep the peace at all times and nothing happens ever. But that involves suppressing so much. I wonder, Susan, how on earth did you have the courage to dive into conflict in the way that you did, in the way that Chris Marie observed?

Well, I mean, I'd say two things. One, I mean, there's two situations that come to mind about why. The one I usually tell. Which has to do with when I was in my 20s, I had a cancer process and was literally, I was given three to six months to live by my medical team. And I really started on a journey then to not be quiet and not keep my voice held back. I had nothing to lose either. I had three to six months. So I was willing to do whatever, say anything. And it stirred up an incredible amount of conflict amongst my medical people, but also in my community from my childhood, because it unearthed a lot of things that had occurred when I was younger. And I realized that that silence was literally killing me. I mean, someone once said to me, you'd be better off dead. You should have never brought any of this up. And I remember getting like, wow, that is how I grew up. This was a very prominent community leader who I was saying some pretty horrific things had occur. No one was speaking up to that. And I actually moved 3,000 miles away so that I could get my life and health back. Because I started to notice when I spoke up, I did. Even though it created a tremendous amount of conflict and uproar, I also started to get healthier. And so I stayed on that Course. And you know, I also grew up in. I grew up in the south at a time when the schools were getting segregated. Lots of things were happening. And I was the only black person. I mean, the only white person, sorry. And an all black school. And during that time, a lot of. I realized, I mean, I got beaten up a lot, but I always existed. And when I went to college, the exact opposite. I had a very dear friend. We played basketball together in high school, we went to college together. And she got ignored. Like she did not exist because she was black. And she just. It was like she. She wasn't there, you know, And I realized, wow, that to me is far worse. Like you don't exist is worse than having someone be angry at you, you know, and you see, I mean, I haven't looked back on that very often until more right now. And I see what's happening. You know, we have ignored humanity because we don't want to deal with the conflict that's there. And it's coming, you know, it's coming up big time now. And. But I, you know, that was so. I think conflict is actually, when you don't deal with conflict, the cost is very much what we're see today in terms of, you know, humanity gets wiped out. Either one group does or the whole thing does, you know, because conflict's a part of being human and we got to deal with it.

I love how you put it on your recent podcast. The show is called the Beauty of Conflict listeners. I highly recommend it. You said fear of feeling and fear of conflict is like holding a beach ball underwater. That we think we can outsmart our emotions, and yet you can't. It's gonna bounce back up. And I'm so grateful that you covered just now and even on your podcast. What we're seeing with the Black Lives Matter movement is a demand to feel the hard feelings. See us, hear us, see the pain, feel the pain. This isn't just pain that every time a black person dies at the hands of the police, the black community should feel and process and grieve. And it's white community and white people that have actually ignored it and moved past it and had the privilege to do that for far too long. So it's amazing how prescient your work is for this moment in time. Because I think the request, and certainly from the Black Lives Matter movement is we want you to get more uncomfortable. We want you to look at the inner conflicts within yourself, the conflicts with what you say and what you do, the conflicts of your community and yet, as you also say, so few of us have the skills to really, truly process and talk about our feelings and even work through conflict in a public setting, which I personally find terrifying with cancel Culture.

Like, how do we do this? And I love anything you could share of just diving into this time in history.

Well, one thing that I would say is, you know, a lot of times people want to know that it's going to be safe and that they can speak up. And the reality of it is, with some of these issues that we have and are facing, the promise of first off, safety is a tricky thing because what one person thinks is safe is not going to be safe for someone else. So safety, you have to be willing to risk being exposed, being emotional, take that emotional risk that you can't put too many tools and rules in place because people won't show up then. Then things can go underground. And that actually ends up making the problems worse, which I think is one of the biggest things we're seeing with some of these racial issues that have been there forever that never get talked about, honestly. So.

And what Susan saying about safety is a tricky thing, meaning some people like, you know, some people want things to be calm, like me. I like things to be calm and nice. And Susan more likes when it's passionate and loud, just that little difference. And then multiply that to all different things. We all have these definitions inside of ourselves, of this is what's okay or safe or what I can tolerate. And I think that's what's being pressed upon is, no, what we're talking about is so. It's so in our blind spots that in order to become aware of it, we are going to be uncomfortable to have to acknowledge, wow, I am prejudiced. This is how it does show up. I didn't even realize it. And I might feel embarrassed, guilt and shame, that might be one side of the equation. Or I feel ignored. I loved when your doctor on the show last week had said, everyone wants to feel seen and heard with positive regard. And I thought, that's so true. We all want to be just. That's what every human being wants. And some parts of our population, black lives, have been not treated that way. And so no wonder they're so angry and upset. It makes perfect sense and to not honor that. This doesn't mean that we have to say I am horrible. But I can actually really see how come you're so upset and how injust this is.

It's sort of ironic because the statement I am horrible ends up making it about Me instead of them anyway. So it's kind of like. It's that. That part just drives me nuts. It's like, okay, you're not actually doing. I'm not doing you any good. I hold you as able and I want to listen to you is the best I can do, not make myself horribly wrong. I do nothing then. And the only way I can hang into those types of conversations is by really breathing and listening and knowing that, hey, I. I could be here. I'm not gonna fix this. I mean, I think that's another thing that's just kind of a horrible injustice. I'm not going to fix it. I am going to stay with you. I'm going to listen deeply. I'm not going to even imagine that I could totally understand, but I'm going to do my best to witness. And that I think is true in any kind of conflict. Too often we as a culture want to fix things, make it right, and that right away gets us into trouble.

And this comes up, this comes up in the present day Black Lives Matter. It comes up in couples, it comes up in business teams that people want to be seen and heard and that witnessing is so crucial. And a lot of times we want to have these big. We want to dive right into these big discussions, but we're missing the actual human on the other side. And can I actually see you look at your eyeballs and get to know you as a human being? And this is what we do with. We do this with companies all the time and also couples, because it can be anytime we're enemy making, which we can do even in a couple like you are. The problem is to slow it down and actually help people connect and then dive into those deeper issues.

I love everything you just shared, and particularly this notion of witnessing and you mentioned Dr. Anthony Harris, that holding each other in positive regard. Even Oprah, when I attended her 2020 vision, she said every single interview for 30 years, when it was over, when the cameras stopped rolling, it didn't matter if it was Beyonce or President Obama. They would say, did I do okay?

Yes, I remember that.

Yes.

And Oprah says the core question is, did you see me? Did you hear me? Did what I say matter?

Yes. Yeah, that's what we all want.

Yes.

And if Oprah's saying it well, then it must be true.

Well, and I think she referenced in that conversation something Mayo Angelou had said to her about that people want to feel seen and heard and that I matter. Yeah. I just feel. I so believe that that's what I want.

Well, I mean, you bring up kind of the Rock of all times with Mayo Angelou in her book. You know, tell me when. You know, when a Pageburg sings.

Yeah.

And her. Her silence. When she went silent for eight years because of sexual trauma that she wasn't going to speak about. She's. And when she talks about it, she was so powerful. She said, you know, when I was ready to have my voice, I spoke again. And that was such. I still can get chills because she was such a strong lighthouse, candidate, person, woman in the world who spoke to so much. But I just remember hearing that, you know, she said, no, I'm not gonna. I'm gonna go silent until I'm ready to bring my voice back again and when it will be heard. Yeah. Wow.

And just that process of honoring. Honoring her process.

Yeah.

And deep listening, as you said, not just jumping straight to fixing, which. Which is quite a construct we have, you know, even the Dr. Harris and Dr. MJC, they both said, we're doctors, we're trying to fix things. We're trying to jump in. And there's the sort of the patriarchy or the patriarchal, you know, not to get into all that, but there is quite an action bias, at least in American culture. It's like a fix it, get her done bias.

We're not that relational as a culture. And I only realized this talk about invisible blind spots, which is redundant. But, you know.

Michael, who's Lebanese, they're so family and community oriented. Nobody cares what you do. Like when I would go to Beirut over the holidays and meet all these people, it's just all about the relationship and being present. And yes, they do have structures in society where they're. They're trying to. They have association with status in terms of what they do, but it's not the orienting question of any conversation.

What a treat.

The whole fixing piece, I do think it is a patriarchal focus. And often in couples, we actually will slow them down, even in business discussions. Because if you go to fixing, and this could happen on the global level right now, too, if you go to fixing, you're usually fixing the wrong problem, fixing the top level. And it's going to make people think, oh, yeah, we're doing something. And there's this whole underbelly that is not being addressed, which is, why is this really so important? And how do you feel about it? And when we encourage couples that are in a kind of an irreconcilable difference, it's actually to have a conversation. We do it as a 5, 5, 5, 5 minutes. One person talks and the other person listens. 5 minutes, the other person talks and the other person listens. And the last five minutes is a dialogue. So it's this container, a 15 minute that when there's a tough situation to do that without coming to a solution and do that over a series of days, what starts to happen is people deepen that conversation and they recognize why it's so important inside of them and you get to core values. And I can witness and hear with curiosity my partner and wow, that's how you're putting the world together. Because we assume we know at that top layer, quick fix conversation.

That reminds me of a book my friend Dori recommended to me a while back called Hold Me Tight. This is sort of on your radar.

Yeah.

So that was revolutionary for me, which is that also sometimes we can give each other credit or not credit a pass, that our emotion is not always going to come out comfortably, gracefully and perfectly constructed. And that book woke me up that sometimes we are going to be unskillful. And I certainly am this way when I get triggered or I'm very emotional and it's like the ugly cry is happening if the other partner can see. You actually just want to be seen and hugged. And yes, this feels like it's directed at me, but maybe it's not actually about me. And it's almost like we just need that extra pause to realize, oh, yeah, I don't need to fix this, and this isn't even about me. This person needs a hug. And I don't know how that extends beyond intimate relationships. But I think that if we can give each other the grace of. You're not always going to express your emotions perfectly to me in the first place.

Exactly. I mean, we do a lot of work in couples. It's actually easier to talk about that because you're saying that desire for intimacy and connection is there, but really the same thing exists in business. People are not in an organization. I mean, maybe some people just want to make money, but I would say that's just kind of not true. Most people join an organization, want to go to work because it has meaning and purpose. A deeper, much deeper. And they want to be a part of something they don't, you know, and so there is this desire to, you know, think that it's gonna get messy because business is personal for most people. You do what you love and you love what you do, hopefully. And so it does matter. So you're gonna show up sloppy and say the wrong things and step on each other's toes and hopefully notice. And we make these kind of insane rules about being professional or political or saying it right. And then the person gets lost. And if even in business, if people could realize, wow.

I just blew it. That was a really dumb thing to say. And now I always say, it's not what you do, it's what you do next. Can you show up when you've done something and not make it so wrong, but just do something to self correct and say, wow, that had a huge impact on you, what just happened. But we make it like we're supposed to be these professionals and polished and already have it down, which is kind of absurd when you think about it.

Well, then we want rules. This is Chris Marie. We want rules to tell us what's right and wrong because we don't like the uncertainty that comes up in the face of conflict. And that's what even what we've been dealing with are all the things that we've helped people, whether it's in business, teams or couples deal with, is that moment of uncertainty when I just said something or I want to say something, and I'm not sure what's going to happen. It's the same thing you were talking about on your podcast. It's this change moment. Like, so if you can learn to handle those moments and be present and immediate and notice the impact you're having and then, you know, like, tell me what just happened over there. Those are the. Those are the transformational moments.

I love it. We have a lot of problematic keywords. Professional, polished, perfectionistic, people pleasing, political, and polite.

The other one is.

And then lately I've been focusing on the re words like reckoning, revisit, reorient. So maybe we're going to shift from the P to the re.

Yeah, re.

Merge. Re merge someplace.

You know, I love. I love how you say when there's conflict, we have a choice whether to opt out or opt in. And I think we can all connect to this on a personal level. But certainly now as a country, there's this demand opt in. You can't just opt out and stay on the sidelines. And specifically, I found it fascinating the three styles of opting out. Superstar, accommodator, and separator. I'm wondering if one of you could speak to those.

Sure. This is Chris Marie.

Yeah.

What we have found is when there's conflict, and that just means different opinions, strong emotions, you're kind of talking about an important topic, and what starts to happen is the energy rises inside of me, and between me and you and that tension, I am not comfortable with it. I haven't been. I wasn't raised to tolerate that level of tension. And so we typically see three ways people try to get rid of that tension, and the first way, meaning opt out of that conflict. The first way is a superstar. And the superstar really values action and results, thinks their idea is the right one. So says, you know what? I'm just going to go do this, and my partner or the team's going to thank me in the end because I don't want to take the time, you know, I'm too impatient to. To hang in for this dialogue.

The next one is the accommodator. And the accommodator really values peace and harmony and relationships, and they are really willing to sacrifice their own point of view for the sake of the relationship or keeping the peace. Now, this is what I was trained to do growing up. I just didn't have an opinion. I was focused on what did dad want, what did my boss want? And became the super pleaser. But eventually I had a meltdown because, you know, too much was going on that I wasn't really addressing. And the third style is the separator. And the separator really values clarity and calm and can, you know, especially in a team setting, they're the ones that conflict comes up between two members, and they're like, I'm going to check my email. I'm going to go to the bathroom. You know, tell me when you two are done with that and we can get back to the real work. I'm just going to go do something else.

The one thing this is. Susan, I'll just add, the thing about it that makes this really tricky is as adults, we've gotten very sophisticated at this. So really, those three styles can be almost superpowers. If we weren't trying to live and work well together, if it wasn't a team, if it wasn't, you know, because if it wasn't a couple, and so that, you know, a superstar can look great, so can accommodator, even a separator. They might be doing things that are worthwhile. They're just not doing something to help the bigger purpose, which is how do we actually have this dialogue we refuse to have and need to have, you know, and so they're like.

They're like taking that energy of conflict, and it's like a balloon that's all ready to pop. And they're just, like, letting it all the Air go out of it versus using all that energy for creativity and new ideas. And that's that holding of that tension that we're so uncomfortable with. But it's so powerful.

I was thinking. I've been tracking. One of my current superheroes in the moment is Stacey Abrams, who's in the political world right now. And she has this. She's just written her book. I don't have the title right in front of me, but she says there's protest and then there's policy, and you need to be able to do both. And I really do believe we're at this point right now. And policy, to me. And when she talks about it, she says it's about having the dialogue. You need to have to keep it going. If you just protest, you won't actually get to that. You'll probably go into those three styles. People will, you know, donate tons of money, but they'll never have the conversation to look at their own way in which they're contributing to the problem at hand. Or we'll solve one problem, like police brutality, but we won't address how this is constant racism that goes on amongst people all the time. So, I mean, I really appreciate her concept is, yes, you gotta raise up and get that feeling coming out. And then you need to use it to have. She talks about policy because she's in politics. I talk about dialogue and actually talk to each other. And it's.

Yeah, I think, really, that changed one person at a time. Like, oh, you are a human being, and I'm affecting you, and I don't want to be affecting you that way. Or I don't want that to happen to you.

I love how you also frame the opportunity cost. So there's not just the moments of tension, but that without any conflict, we're not creating transformational teams. We're not as creative. So it's so. And I love what you said, too, about those three modes of opting out, that they can be superpowers. And I could even say some people might benefit from them until you don't, because there is a shadow side. Like, it might be very convenient for my husband that I always say, whatever you want, whatever you'd like, you know? Oh, yeah. I remember doing so much firing Katie turnarounds the work to the point where, like, nothing bothers me. I'm just doing the work, you know, and then. And then, like, oh, oh, this thing annoys me. Let me do the work. Let me turn that thought around. But there comes a point, and I think of it as an 8020 where, yeah, actually 80% of the thoughts can sort of be turned around and dissolved. But There's a core 20 that I do want to make some requests and not be demanding. But if I don't do that, and we don't have the discomfort of working through those and getting aligned, then I'm just gonna explode. There will come a day where one dish has me, like, lose my mind. You know.

Just an accommodation. It's like, it might work for a while, until it doesn't.

That was me. I mean, I was working my tail off to try to be everything to everybody. And I had a chronic back injury. I had. I was allergic to about 30 different things. I had skin and gut issues, and I was involved with an alcoholic and trying to fix that relationship. Relationship which, you know, and until I just crumbled. And because I was so inside out. And I do think there comes a time just like, enough. I am important what. What I feel matters, but I've got to make it matter and stand forth.

Yes. There's another book when the body says no.

Yes, I have that book.

Yes. I love Cabhor Mate. Oh, my gosh, that book was such a.

So powerful.

Just how I just couldn't believe. There's a lot of books on somatic manifestation in the body, but his is specifically the inability to say no, which I think is the inability to be in conflict.

Yes.

And the inability to. We also repress our anger in our culture. No, I'm not upset. And the willing is. I think number three is getting. And he actually references one of our mentors, Joanne Peterson at the Haven, because she talked about how important energy is this life force, and it lets me know my boundaries have been crossed. But if I'm so busy suppressing it, that's a lot. It's like that beach ball again under the water. And it's important to learn how to activate my own anger. Not hurting. I think so much anger is velcroed with violence. And so learning to mine certainly was so separating those two. But learning safe ways to express your anger, which will lead you to the courage to say no.

Absolutely. And Susan, I found the title. So Stacey Abrams new book is called Our Time is Now and the Fight for a Fair America.

Yes. You know, she's just such a powerful woman. And, you know, I haven't read the whole book yet. I just downloaded it because I just been following her because I find her fascinating. Like, you know, that her. She's very strong in her opinions, and she also wants to make sure they Go beyond just a protest or a moment in time. And I respect that.

I have to say I was so happy with our candidate pool for president and so disappointed that.

I know we don't have to go there. But damn it, you know, we could have had. So we could have had any kind of diversity in terms of who's running for president and simply don't. But hopefully Veep will get someone in there.

Oh my gosh. I know.

It is one of those things that makes sense. It so difficult because there's politics and then how do you actually take what is such a. Especially in our country? I mean there's a lot of good evidence and support right now to show that women in leadership. I don't know. I'm also fascinated by the fact that women as leaders of countries that have done the best with COVID they've had women leaders and a big part of that is because they care about public health, they care about policy. They're not as likely to put their ego out in front so many things that they're inclusive, they're evidence based. There's some really good research about these various leaders. Like the woman in New Zealand is totally different than Markle and Germany. But they are these two women leaders that have actually done remarkably well because of their inclusive and their evidence base the way they've worked with their countries.

You were reading an article Susan too about even when women got the vote. What started to be important in politics in is public health and sanitation, which weren't. This is way back when we got the vote. So I mean having a broader perspective, it would be so nice to also include a woman in the leadership of our nation.

I know even things like affordable care for children.

Yes.

I mean all the men finally could see what it's like. I'm making broad generalizations now, but I think a lot of the media coverage was saying, oh, men didn't realize how hard it is being at home with the kids.

That's so true.

It's.

And now, now because the kids are coming in and interrupting their meetings, they might have a, you know, an awareness of it.

Right.

But you know, that's the challenge. How to take something that's so political and get it down to a personal level. Because it's kind of like you get it down to a personal level, then it becomes a grasp grassroots movement. Then something happens and because that's what will take it from, you know, deep in the heartbeats of people out into.

The world because they've experienced, because they're experiencing it, their Own situation. That's why. So being personal is so important in talking about these issues, the big ones and the small ones.

When you say that intimacy is into me. See?

Exactly.

So that's our little shortcut for this conversation. Yes.

I also love.

There's so many good math equations. We have the five, five, five. Tool into me.

See?

And courage equals vulnerability plus curiosity. That's so powerful.

Yeah.

And we. Even the one that. I thought you were going to say that in a relationship, we have the relationship math, which is one whole person times another whole person equals a whole relationship. And if I'm only showing up halfway, a half of me times a whole Susan, still equals a half of a relationship. And then if we both show up halfway, it's a quarter of a relationship. So how important it is to learn how to find my voice and speak up and show up, because I'm going to feel more alive and it's going to make. It's going to spark our relationship for good and for, you know, it's going to be messy, but it's going to have so much more life in it.

Yes.

So that I cannot help but ask, you are both partners in life. You're married, you're business partners. 20 years, and you've written two books together. This must. Oh, and now we're living through a pandemic.

Yes.

Not able to do anyone do anything outside with others. So how is it for the two of you? I don't even know where to start with that question, but you have so many overlapping circles of your Venn diagram of interactions and what would be maybe like one of your key lessons learned. I mean, I'm sure it's distilled in the books, but just riff on that wherever you want to go.

Well, I guess I'll tell you two things. One, just the other day, we were getting ready to do. I can't even remember where we were presenting. Maybe it was a couples workshop and we were like, into everything. We were disagreeing about everything, what we were going to do, how we were going to do it. You know, you wouldn't have known we had written a book on anything. But. And for me, there's those moments where I get when I remember, oh, this is actually good, because things are sparking. And if I don't take it personally and if I can hang in and we can listen to each other, it really is quite powerful because I can. If I could just hold, like, all right, take a breath. You can. It's okay that she's not wanting to do it. Your way. It's okay. We're going to survive, breathe, and hang in for this. And so, you know, it shows up all the time. And in some respects, at least now I know this is a good sign, you know, and this is Chris Marie.

And I think what has been so transformational just even across the whole 20 years, is I have learned it's okay for me to be me. The good, the bad, the messy and the beautiful. Like, I don't need to behave well or how am I going to say this so Susan doesn't get mad? I mean, it's not like that doesn't cross my mind, but eventually it just comes out and we. I have learned that I. I can say what I need to say and we're going to get through it, even though it is very uncomfortable at times. And that is so freeing. I was so trapped in my own. I've got to do it right. I can't say this. I better say it. You know, just turning myself into a pretzel. And often when we are in the midst of it and it looks like, oh my gosh, we are never going to agree, we come up with something that's so different. Like when all our events, we had all these speaking events canceled and all sorts of things disappearing, you know, in the middle of March and we were like, okay, well, how can we be of service? And we started doing daily Facebook lives. We started doing LinkedIn videos just to help our corporate people. And, you know, and I felt so invigorated even though, you know, everything had been wiped away. And that's very different for me. So we come up with those inspiring. I feel inspired, which is, you know, that's just life generating life, in my opinion. And I really love that there is.

It's such a Buddhist thoughts part of the Buddhist canon that like, bravery is at the edge of sadness, you know, or Pema Chodrone when things fall apart. Or just this notion that to feel any feelings is to be alive. And if we can actually pause long enough to say, like this pandemic. I'm living my worst case business scenario when I was thinking about going on my own 10 years ago. Go. This would probably qualify as all your speaking gigs will be canceled now and into the future indefinitely. Terrible situation. But I can relate so much that there is a certain aliveness. There's something new entering. I don't know what that is.

So that's the same. I think Jenny in conflict is that you can get to that place. Like, wow, I don't know. But there Is something new that's possible here in between Susan and I or you and I or whatever. Even now at our world stage, there is.

And I think the key thing there, and this was something that my years of cancer, you know, my four different cancers and everything else taught me over and over again was, you know, I could always hear it as this is it, this is the end and dive into that. Or I could also get curious like, because cancer is, you know, my own cells turning against me. So there's something that's kind of intrigues me about this that like, oh, this isn't some outside alien source attacking me. And that's kind of the way a viruses. It's kind of the way the world is right now is if we could get curious about the state of things. It's so different than fighting it and wrestling with it and making it wrong, making it wrong. And it's like, okay, we are here. So. And nature teaches us that resilience, if you look at from a natural point of view, is everywhere. And we are probably the earliest, the youngest in terms of our neocortex. But we keep thinking that's going to be the thing that solves the problem.

Oh my goodness. Nature keeps winning the ego of humans and homo sapiens since the day we arrived to this place. Unbelievable. Susan, I would love, before we wrap up, I would love to hear about and by the way, your journey of overcoming cancer. I didn't realize it was four times. It's so inspiring. Just when you were 24 asking to attend Elizabeth Kukler Ross workshop and her telling you just choose, choose to live. It's so powerful. Talk to us about your equus therapy work and what have you learned from equine therapy that has informed either your own personal overcoming, whether it's working through cancer or in the work that you and Chris Murray do.

Well, I mean one, that moment with Elizabeth Kukler Ross was sort of like the biggest wake up call which you know, you have. You're choosing to die right now and you have to decide you want to live because. And you have to decide it day in, day out, moment to moment. We all do. But you've just been given a date, so get with the program. I mean she was, she was a pretty strong force of nature. And you know, I take that now to what you were saying about the horses. You know, the thing about that I've learned from the horses is they, well one, they're herd animals. So they are always connected. Relationships are how they've survived and probably they're one. You know, one thing about horses, they go back to their feral state quickest. So let's. What I mean by that is if they've been traumatized, if they are given the opportunity to go back to their natural state, they'll go back like that. And the way they do that is by the interconnection of the herd. We have the same potential, but we don't see it. We don't see those.

That we're not separate nine times out of ten. But if you walk in a pasture with horses, you start to get, oh, I'm a part of everything. And so the horses have really taught me, you know, without, you know, Elizabeth Kubler Ross's, you know, kind of in my face direction that I am always a part of everything else if I want to be. And I just have to breathe and get into my really my emotions, my body, my bigger, the bigger part of me. I can use my neocortex too. But it's only useful if everything else is engaged. And horses are brilliant at helping you get there.

So beautifully said. And what a nice and important counter because both of you have such engineering and business minds and it's just incredible to see this side be so developed as well of that intuitive inner. Yeah, it's just very impressive. You're an exact example of one plus one equals 100 or thousand or 100,000.

There's another relationship map for your next.

It's so interesting because of my. This is Chris Murray with my engineering and Arthur Anderson and helping we co, you know, do executive off sites in the business world. But what I have all the work that I do and I often coach women leaders. It's the self doubt and the worry and the people pleasing, the perfectionism and fear of authority and not speaking up that plagues so many women. Even though on the outside they look so successful. Me included. You know, I had this great outside resume and I just really.

Really love helping women fill up from the inside out and make a bigger impact because we can all do that and our world needs more intuitive women leaders speaking up.

Yes, there's three of us right now.

Exactly, exactly.

I also want to just add, I often think of conflict because you had mentioned how in your journey of 20 plus years you end up at something better. And I always try to remind myself that too. My friend Christine calls it the secret third solution. But it's like there's a tug of war happening on the bottom of the triangle, thinking it needs to be A or B, my way or your way. And every single time, at least with Michael, that we've worked through this, there's some better scenario that neither of us would have come up with on our own.

Exactly.

That is so true. That's exactly how I described it. Because every time when Susan and I got together, we'd get into a fight and I'm like, oh, we're over, we're over.

We can't do it.

I would do the same thing. Yeah. Oh, he's gonna break up. It's over now. Oh, this has to end. Oh, I better.

But inevitably something new would emerge. That third secret solution. I haven't heard that.

But it's sacred solution. Yeah.

But not my way, her way, but something new. And it's. So once you feel that enough times, I started to believe it. And I imagine you do too, Jenny, that there's that possibility.

I mean not. I don't want to sound religious or anything, but I do have a welcome here. The idea that, you know, I mean, I think these came out. This was these. This was the words of Jesus. Two or more gathered in my name and anything can happen. I don't know if those were exact words. I'm not really a biblical person, but right in that. That notion that when two or more people really connect, so much more is possible and we. I think it is. You called it. I love that. That sacred solution or, you know, I think the power of human joining together and being a part of the connection versus separate from. Oh, anything is possible. And I think that's what that message meant, you know. You know, by ourselves we're just solo. But once we. Once we realize we are not alone on this journey on Earth. Planet Earth. Amazing things can happen.

So part of the earth.

Yeah.

So beautifully said. Oh my goodness. I'm just so honored and delighted to get to know you both better and have our pivot paths cross in this way. I know you have a special PDF download that listeners can.

Oh yes, yes.

I'd love for you to tell listeners where they can keep in touch and learn more about you and your work.

Absolutely. Well, just our website is www.thriveinc.com. so that's t H R I V E I n c.com and you can find Chris Marie Campbell and Susan Clark. Susan B. Clark, I guess both on Facebook and LinkedIn. And I wanted to give. Just because so often people have a hard time. This is a time of having tough conversations and a lot of times we don't know how to do that. So we stay silent. And so we wanted to give Your listeners a little workbook about how to have tough conversations. And so how you can get this is if you have your cell phone you can text 406-350-7691. That's 406-350-7691. And just put your name and your email and then when you get a reply back, just put the word beauty in there for Beauty of Conflict. But just beauty. And the how to have Tough Conversations workbook, which is about a 1315 page workbook, will be sent to your email. So that's how you can get it.

Amazing listeners. I'm going to put that in the show. Notes, notes. So if you want to go to pivotmethod.com240, you'll get all the books we mentioned and this number to text to get the free PDF on tough conversations.

And you already mentioned this Jenny, but our podcast is the Beauty of Conflict.

Yes. Oh my gosh.

Thank you for bringing that back up because of course everyone here is listening to a podcast and Fantastic. And don't forget to check out their latest book, the Beauty of Conflict for Couples and their previous book the Beauty of Conflict for Teams. Chris, Marie and Susan, this was such a joy. Thank you so much for being here and congrats on 20 plus years of doing all the things together.

Thank you Jenny.

You're delightful.

Wow.

Thank you both.

Thanks so much for listening to this episode of the Pivot podcast. Make sure you don't miss an episode or my insider tips and templates by signing up for Pivot List, a curated twice monthly newsletter where I share the inside scoop on what I'm reading, watching, listening to and the latest tools I'm geeking out on. Sign up@pivotmethod.com pivotlist get show notes from this episode@pivotmethod.com podcast and connect with me me on Twitter at Jenny Blake.

Remember, build first, then your courage will follow. Hasn't it always.