241: Get Off Autopilot & Be Your Own Benefactor with Antonio Neves

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What's next? This is a question we're all having to ask and answer more frequently. I'm Jenny Blake, your host of the Pivot podcast and author of the only Move that Matters is your next one.

For show notes from this episode, visit pivotmethod.com podcast if Change is the only constant, then let's get better at it. Here we go.

Hello friends. I am so delighted to bring you a longtime friend of mine, Antonio Nevs. He is a speaker, author and coach with a million watt smile. He is a true creative. He's always launching interesting things that are part of this through line of his career of interviewing fascinating people about fascinating things. And he's the father of four year old twins. Today we're doing a podcast crossover I think is the official term for it. Antonio just interviewed me for his show and now we're turning the mic tables and I'm interviewing him here for Pivot. Antonio, welcome to the show.

Listen, thank you so much for having me. I have a big smile on my face. You have that big wattage smile as well. So I'm happy to be here. Thank you.

I love your podcast and it's been so fun being because from the time I met you. So I didn't read your official bio but Tony has a long history as a journalist and an interviewer. He's been worked in TV and has always, you've always gone your own way, Tony. You're somebody that I think of as you're not afraid to launch your own show, your own program, your own voice. And you're also not afraid to Pivot or make a change when it's time. So I'm wondering if you can share with listeners what are you doing right now with the best thing and even your new book? And how is that an iteration of what you were doing previously?

Yeah, even as you mentioned like being willing to go your own way, it brought up something for me. Just I remember I was dating a girl years ago and it wasn't going to work out and one of the things she said to me is like hey, this is amazing. And I see how focused you are on your career. So I'm somewhere else in my life. And we broke up, and it was totally cool. Amicable, the. But then I remember getting a card in the mail from her not long ago. And not long ago, excuse me, my wife's like, when did you get that card? But no, right after we broke up years ago. And the card said, jenny, just because you're going your own way doesn't mean it's the wrong way. And it was just such a beautiful reminder to me at that point in my life to know that sometimes, you know, just because you're going your own way doesn't mean it's the wrong way, even if other people, family, and friends tell you you otherwise. And it's funny, because the best thing, the podcast that I have really came from a place of a few years ago. Look, during normal times, I'm on, I'm doing 40 speaking engagements a year. And a few years ago, as I'm doing this work and loving this work, I still found myself, Jenny, feeling extremely bored. I'm like, how am I bored? I'm speaking on stages in front of 5,000 people. And I realized I stopped being created. I stopped having that outlet. I stopped doing what I absolutely love. I loved having fascinating conversations with fascinating people, yet I was just talking to audiences. And so I decided to invest in myself to endorse myself and start this podcast where I talk to people about the best thing that has ever happened to them that wouldn't necessarily show up on a resume or a bio. And that was a big pivot for me because for the longest time, I was only willing to do things like that. Jenny, if there was a sponsor, this podcast is brought to you by. And I was like, no, man. I need to be willing to invest in myself and be my own benefactor, if you will. And even though there is no sponsor and I pay for everything, I'm the sponsor. It has brought me and continues to bring me so much joy. And I think you can hear when you listen to the episode, the joy that it brings me. So that's a long answer to your.

Question, but it's a great answer. I love this. Be my own benefactor. That's so good.

Yeah, I, like, be your own benefactor shows up. I have a book coming out in January called Stop living on Autopilot, and there's a chapter that digs into this idea of being willing to be your own benefactor. I like to think back to artists back in the day. I don't care if we're talking about Michelangelo, if we're talking about Mozart, if you're talking about James Baldwin. At some time in their life, they had a benefactor, some kind of someone that invested in them, allowed them to create their art. In the 21st century, these benefactors exist as well. You see people who have those patron accounts, people who go to writing colonies to write their books, people who do Indiegogo or Kickstarters. But this whole notion of, like, at some point you have to be willing to be your own benefactor. At some point you have to be willing to kickstart yourself. It frustrates me, even myself, for a good period of my life where I always look for a sponsor. I look for someone else to say yes instead of just diving in on my own. I think a society is stuck in many ways like that as they feel like they have to raise money to do these things. So I invite people to be their own benefactor, to invest in themselves, and I think the payoff is absolutely huge and not to wait for someone else.

I find it interesting what you shared. We were talking on your show as well, about often having to say no to something good so that you can bet on yourself so you can be your own benefactor. And let's be real, when you're going to become your own benefactor, it's usually in an unknown, unproven area. Because if it was a sure bet, you probably would have sponsors. You would have people knocking at your door on some level. I also know you're a very positive person. Again, with this million dollar smile. It must have been hard for you to come to that realization. Traveling 40 gigs a year. You can make pretty good money doing that where you're on stage. I bet. I'm only saying this because I can relate, so I don't want to put words in your mouth, but isn't there some part of you where you're like, I should be grateful for this. Why aren't I happy? I'm at this plateau and I experience this a lot in myself. And with pivoters is when you get to this plateau, I sometimes make the mistake of taking it personally, like, oh, there's something wrong with me that I'm not thriving right now. How many people would kill to be doing this work or would be loving this? And so how did you give yourself the permission to get real? And in your case, stop living on autopilot of having a thriving speaking career and somehow admitting there's, there's more or there's something knocking that's next?

Yeah, what a brilliant Question. The truth is, Jenny, I was on autopilot. I was on the proverbial cruise control. And this is the thing that unfortunately, a lot of people don't talk about, specifically, quote, unquote, successful people who are high performers, who, on paper, on the resume, on LinkedIn, on Instagram, everything looks good, but internally they're slowly wilting inside and atrophy is setting in. But because they've checked off society's check boxes of things that they're supposed to do, and maybe they are living the, quote, unquote, American dream, they kind of feel a little bit guilty. Like, who am I to complain about not feeling completely fulfilled? And that was kind of me. I felt guilty about having this, quote, unquote, great career and different things happening, yet I wasn't fulfilled. But what I realized, Jenny, in the midst of all this, was at some point, I had stopped being bold and I had stopped being courageous. I had stopped being that kid that moved to New York City in 2000 with $800 in his checking account with this dream of breaking into the television industry. I had stopped being that bold and courageous guy that left the television industry behind 12 years later in 2012 and moved to Los Angeles to pursue working in leadership. And again, cruise control had set in. There's this great interview I read in the New York Times. It's from an article I want to believe in 2016. And these two business owners who started a fashion label in the 90s in New York were talking, and at one point, Jenny, one of the business owners in the interview, said, oh, man, I really miss the old New York. Talking about what New York was like in the 90s, a little bit more gritty, et cetera. But his business partner corrected him. He said, you don't miss the old New York. You miss the old you. And that's what I missed. I missed that person that was optimistic, that person that was taking risks, that person that was bold, that person that was courageous, that person that was willing to be their own benefactor. I had just settled, if you will, and again, on paper, everything was fine. But this is around the time I had twins and a lot of responsibilities. And I was like, what kind of example do I want to be to these young cats? You know, this little boy and little girl? Like, do they want a dad that has to come home and have a couple of glasses of wine to sedate himself to get rid of the angst, or they want to have a dad that's alive? It got to the point, this is a whole other conversation by the way Jenny. It got to the point where I was. I developed a secret cigarette smoking habit. I was smoking cigarettes in the, in alleys wearing a green gardening glove. A green gardening glove. Because I didn't want my wife to know that I was smoking. So I wore this glove. That's how much my angst and how backed up I was from not being bold, not being courageous, not being willing to bet on myself. And I had one of those moments where you look in the mirror and you realize I have a decision to make about how I'm going to live this life. And something that catapulted that moment was one day when I was smoking one of those cigarettes wearing a green gardening glove. A homeless guy came up to me and he said, hey, can I bum a couple of cigarettes? And I was like, yeah, of course. Looked like he'd seen many better days. And at some point he said, yo, what's up with that glove? And I was like, oh, my wife doesn't know that I smoke, so I wear this so she can't smell it. Jenny. He looked at me with such like, like he felt sorry for me. And then he said something I'll never forget. He said, you gotta figure that shit out, man. And walked away. And that was one of the most powerful moments in my life. This homeless man telling me, you gotta figure that shit out. And woo. He talked about those come to Jesus moments, those moments when you just, you gotta break down those tears come. It was real. Wow.

Thank you so much for being open enough to share that. Just the, the power of noticing the secret coping habit and seeing how it kind of isn't true, how those habits, they develop almost unconsciously. It's like you need something to resolve the pressure you're feeling, but of course you're not thinking consciously. Let me go develop a secret coping habit that I hide from my wife. But yet you needed to do something to release the pressure or the anxiety, the angst you were feeling, especially about losing your aliveness a little bit. And I can't believe what he said to you. And just that moment of him bumming cigarettes off you and him telling you, you gotta figure that shit out.

I mean, wow, yeah, it's gonna stay with me forever. But I'd reached a point I think a lot of people reach when I like to think about like a can of soda. And it's kinda like you just shake it, shake it, shake it nonstop and you just keep shaking. And that's how I felt. And at some point, if you keep shaking it one day it's going to explode. And odds are it's going to explode at the wrong time when you least expect it, and you don't want it to explode. And I think a lot of people are in that place right now where they're just constantly being shaken up. And I think the reason why that is is because they're not letting their quote unquote art out. When I say art, I'm not talking about painting photos or taking photos or taking paintings, et cetera. But there's something inside of us, again, that relates to being bold creatures, that provides those great emotions that they're restricting, that they're ignoring, the same way I was. And so that's what led to me having a couple drinks in the evening. That's what led to the smoking, et cetera. And it led to that moment of like, again, like, yo, what. What decision are you going to make? What is the path going to look like? And it wasn't easy, that's for sure.

I love how you phrase this on the book jacket. The book description. You say, take stock of your life based on your last 30 days of work or marriage or parenting. Would your company rehire you? Would your partner immediately recommit to you? Would your children want you to continue to be their parent? It strikes me that, especially now with the pandemic we're months in, the country is going through its own much needed, long overdue upheaval. We have an election coming up in the fall. I mean, this isn't really going to let up. How are you taking stock of your life during this crazy time for. For better and for worse, like what? What has been positive about this time for you and how find your footing in an absolutely chaotic time?

That's a great question. Well, first and foremost, what I had to do. At first, I felt like I had to hustle like crazy because I'm a guy that traveled a lot for speaking, and I saw the vast majority of my income go away. Thank goodness I'm responsible. So it's not like the income went away. It's not like I couldn't eat and feed the family. But that was scary to see. Like, wow, my life is. To earn income has required me jumping on a plane to go places. What I had to do, because I was beating myself up about that a lot at first. Like, Antonio, you've known for the longest time, don't trade time for money. What are you doing? And so I was beating myself up. But then at some point, I worked with the coach myself, so thank goodness I had to have some grace for myself. I had to give myself some permission to feel, to let some things out and not beat myself up the way that I was beating myself up. Also to remind myself of what I've gone through, that I am resilient, that I am capable, that I am creative, and that Tony Neves and his family is never going to be hungry. I just had to remind myself of that. Like, how I'm built because of being Al and Zani's son. Like, I'm just not built to give up. But I did have to have that pause.

What's been amazing is a guy that's on the road nonstop, and you framed that question from the book jacket of based on your last 30 days, you know, would your partner immediately recommit to you based on your last 30 days, would your kids immediately want you as your parent? Jenny, I can't tell you how many stretches over the years that I'm sure my wife would have some second thoughts about. Is this who I want to be married to? Maybe even my kids, because they weren't getting the best of me. I was on the road nonstop, you know, and you're gone, and you're in India doing some talks on day 11 of being away, and your wife is with young twins. She may be rethinking, like, what am I doing? So, wow, what an amazing thing that I got this time, that I'm getting this time to reconnect with my wife, to reconnect with my kids. Like, I'm having moments like, oh, okay, you know what? You're not so bad. You're pretty amazing. Okay. Oh, nice to meet you. Like, I'm having those kind of moments which have been really, really good that otherwise would not have been there. And based on some conversations we've had, also, I'm asking myself, what do I want work to look like moving forward? Do I want to speak 30 to 40 times a year? And I can tell you right now the answer is a resound no. Like, let's be clear. I. I love that work. And that's. That's one thing I have to. When people say, don't trade time for money, but I hear you. And let's be clear, I love that work. I love being on the stage. I love telling stories. And do I want to do that 30 to 40 times a year moving forward? Absolutely not. So it's been a pivot for me as I'm adjusting. I mean, like, my group coaching programs, which didn't exist just three, four months ago, have been on fire. I've got back into doing one on one coaching, which I hit pause on because I was too busy doing other things. And so there's other parts of me are showing up that were kind of buried that I love to do. So I'm just thankful that I could turn on some different spigots, if you will, and still do something that I enjoy, if that makes sense.

I heard sparks flying when you talked about your group coaching program.

Oh, my goodness. Like I've always wanted to do. I've done group coaching in the past, but I hadn't done in a while. I was finishing my book then I was on the road too much and I was like, you know what, let's do it now. And oh my goodness, I do these stop living on autopilot challenges and that group coaching. And I'm the firm believer.

My coaching work is based on question asking. Like most coaches, more of a coach than a consultant, by all means. And I feel like all of us have the answers to our most pressing questions, but we just haven't been asked the right question. And Jenny, as you know, as a coach, when you're facilitating groups, when you see people, men and women, have those moments, those ahas that they came up with on their own, oh, so selfishly, it's so rewarding. It's easy to tell someone what to do. But boy, when you can get them there on their own, I absolutely love it.

You and I have similar backgrounds of coaching journalism and podcasting now. And isn't it interesting that the connecting thread in all of those is curiosity and questions.

I'm the most naturally curious person ever. I think for the longest time when it was a defense mechanism, I think I grew up with very insecure kids. So my, one of my. I think there are people who, when they're introverts, which a lot of people would never assume that I'm an introvert, which I am. They assume these folks are in the corner. But my defense mechanism, being an introvert and extremely shy growing up, was to actually come up to you and talk to you. What I would do is get you to talk about yourself and then you realize, like, oh yeah, that Antonio, he's fascinating. But then you realize, but. But I didn't learn one thing about him.

That's so true. I've had people leave coffees and say the same thing about me. They're like, oh, no, our time is up. I didn't learn anything about you. I'm like, oh, I did that thing again.

Like, oh, isn't that Interesting. You didn't learn anything about me. But I just love people. I love hearing their stories. And what I have to remind people, Jenny, and you know, this is a lot of people think they have unremarkable stories. And I have to remind people that sometimes what they think about themselves as being normal is fascinating to someone else. It blows them away. Like, I think we all have these intensely powerful stories, not just people you read about magazines and see on television and these, these influencers online, et cetera. Like, I think every human being has a remarkable story to tell. And in a way, I feel like that's my job. I don't care if I'm talking to someone, a stranger on a plane. I'm really curious about them and hearing about the story one, so I can learn. But also, you just see the. You just see them light up. I love seeing people light up. And it makes me light up.

Absolutely. And you're so good at it. You really are so talented. I also am curious about. You said in your most recent podcast with Shauna Thomas. You brought up this tough point of one thing that you said, one thing I'm astutely aware of, after 12 years in the television industry, speaking at conferences and on various stages, of what it's like to be the only one, the lone person of color in the room or on the stage. I wonder, both as an introverted person and how has it been for you, were you aware, was that consciously on your mind of where you would look around and think, here it is again, I'm an only, or I'm one of the only people of color in this lineup? Or is it now, with everything going on and thankfully, with so many people kind of waking up to these rooms and these dynamics, is that coming more to the fore for you?

It's, you know, it's always been something around, but it's just the way things have been. So I never really had to verbalize it or articulate it the way that I'm articulating it now. But it's for everyone listening. I just want to remind you, if you ever have the opportunity to be the only one in any capacity, the only one of your ethnicity, the only one of your religion, the only one of your gender, on and on, just find a way to be the only one. Boy, is it a fascinating place to be because you have to show up sometimes a little bit differently. And many times you can also find connective tissue with people you don't think you'd have any connective tissue with. But my whole life Jenny, I've always felt like the weirdo, if you will. I've never. And this isn't just relating to relate to race. I've never felt like I fit in. I was acutely aware during my television career that, wow, there's one black guy on this television show. There's. I'm the one. I'm the black host on this show or on the newscast, like, there's one black dude. Or as I walk around this major organization I work for, like, wow, there aren't many people of color and you learn how to exist in that. And, and you kind of just for a while, I accepted that. Then you realize there are so many amazing, talented people. Like, why aren't more people here? And now it's becoming more to the forefront. But it's so frustrating to be the only one. And I'm glad we're having these conversations now because they're needed outside of race, Jenny. And I think you'll appreciate this. Again, I've always felt out of place. My whole life. I've always felt a bit like a weirdo compared to everyone else. I'm the guy that could get along with everyone. I didn't fall into clicks, if you will. I think because of feeling a little bit like a weirdo. But at some point I realized with this whole notion of not fitting in, that maybe you're not. Maybe I'm not supposed to fit in. And maybe me trying to fit in has been the challenge. Maybe I'm just supposed to be Tony. And what does that look like? The weirdness, the eccentricities, the questions, the things you're interested in. And just briefly, an example of that, Jenny, is for the longest time I wore the. The speaker uniform. You've seen the guys on stages. We wear a crisp pair of jeans, we wear a button up, we wear a blazer and a nice pair of shoes. I feel like I've wore that uniform for so damn long, Jenny, that a few years ago I got so tired of wearing this uniform that I just stopped and I started wearing a pair of slacks that I like. I started wearing sneakers on stage. I started wearing like my Carhartt T shirts and my chore jacket, like, and I was so afraid to transition to just being me and not being who I thought they wanted to see. And like, oh, man, these clients are going to say they're going to fire me probably. And I came to find out that as I started shifting dressing how I want to dress, who I am, it actually created more trust with the audience because I didn't look like any of them. They could see that I was fully being myself. And I think I even was looked at as more of an expert when I embraced more of who I am. So the answer to that question went down a tangent I didn't expect. But, boy, did it feel good to remove the quote unquote uniform.

Oh, that is so good. I love that anecdote and that perspective that something as simple as that, like waking up to the clothing you're in and trying to fit a certain look or what's professional and even professionally defined as really in the past, even though now we would say, okay, jeans, jeans and a nice shirt. That's edgy enough, right, for speaking, like, not to be wearing, like, a suit or something. But then hearing how you've completely taking it to the next level and in something as fundamental but important as your clothing and how you show up on stage and then hearing you say that, wow, it actually can create more trust with the audience and make you seem even more of an expert, especially because you're talking about getting off autopilot. So even doesn't that start with how we show up to others?

Yeah, it's. They're like, this dude isn't trying to fit in. And that's all I've been trying to do my whole life. And as you know, Jenny, it's exhausting. It's exhausting trying to fit in. And one of the hardest things to do is just be yourself. And look, I'm in. I'm in my early 40s here. And in TV, something you always hear early on, whether you're a reporter or your host or, like, just be yourself. Just be yourself. And I always wonder, like, okay, but who the hell is that? I don't know who I am. But now as I'm getting older, I'm finding who I am in my skin. Like, even as you hear me talk right now. If I was doing this interview with you a few years ago, Jenny, I spoke very different in that reporter voice. Now people hear my twang and they hear me swear every now and then because guess what? I swear. Guess what? I have a twang when I speak. And I used to kind of hide those things and try to speak like everyone else. And that shit is exhausting. I can't. I can't anymore.

And where is that wonderful twang from?

That's the funny thing. People always say, oh, where are you from? Down south. I'm like, oh, this lovely place called Michigan. There's no one nowhere down. Nowhere down south.

But it's the patented Tony twang. It's just. It is you. It's your voice. It's unique, and, you know, it's funny. The pandemic. Two things that I've completely left behind without apology. High heels, of course, because no one's going out. But really, I see them as these most ridiculous contraptions. Like, I just can't even understand. They look like an alien object to me right now. And makeup. And I have to thank my husband Michael, for long ago saying, oh, you look better without makeup. But professionally, I never. I wouldn't have believed him. And I will say, if I'm going to do a virtual keynote or something, a virtual training, I'll do the lightest dusting of mascara and something else. But most of the rest of my calls, I don't care anymore. I don't care anymore. You know what? This is what I look like. And I'm not going to just cake on a. A bunch of makeup. It's like we're all talking about masks and the metaphor of masks during this time, for me, makeup is the same thing. Why am I covering up what I actually look like? Yes. So I can ostensibly look better for you. And don't get me wrong, I'm gonna use the zoom smoothing feature that, like, comes with zoom.

Me, too.

Yeah, but I mean, why? It's just. It's like, I do think it's so important to stop and question. And I also love what you said about find a way to be the only and that there are going to be moments that you're the only. And it might make you angry, it might make you frustrated, it might make you want to change that. And at the same time, it is such a unique vantage point. And I remember when I started coach training, I was 24 years old, and people laughed at me. They just laughed in my face, like, what are you doing here? What right do you have to be a Life coach at 24 years old? What do you know about the world? And by the time coach training ended, I was the one that had a website up and running and was getting clients coming to me from around the country because I had the web savvy. And so now they were asking me for my input on how to launch a website. And I just remember feeling at the time feeling so bad that they were laughing at me. And then now it's like, I look for ways that I can be in that position because it means I must be doing something different or I must be doing something that is following my own way, my own Path to go right where we started.

I love that they were laughing at you. By the end, you were the one up and running, making things happen. And.

You'Re right about in terms of acknowledging like high heels and different things, like why, but why are we wearing these things? Why are we doing this? And I loved your. You said the lightest dusting of.

Yes.

Of makeup now, what an amazing husband you have. To encourage you and to love you to say, hey, honey, you, you're great as you are. So what a beautiful reminder for all of us to. If you go to my bedroom right now, on the floor is a big heaping pile of clothes that I'm getting rid of and I'm like, ah, that's not me. I don't care about the. Yeah, there's some money spent on these, but I don't care. I'm giving them away.

Oh, how freeing. 100%, so freeing. And I just have to ask, how is it being a dad to twins?

Oh, man. As you can imagine, it's a mix mosh of everything. It's someone, someone told me I'll sing a therapist. And just so you know, I'm a guy that openly. I love to see therapists. I have a coach. I'm always blown away, by the way, by the way, Jenny, of how many coaches don't work with coaches themselves? That's a whole other conversation.

My therapist told me, he's like, your children will be your teacher. And I didn't know what he meant when he said it, but now I completely get it because every single day I have a choice of how I kind of choose to respond. Their unbridled, like just fascination with everything, their happiness, the way they, they wake up with joy, their excitement just reminds me that I have a choice to have that same excitement, that same vantage point of seeing something brand new. And it's so much fun when these kids see something that's brand new or they haven't experienced before and you see this joy, this joy that we forget still exists in our day to day life. And so they remind me of that and those moments when things are a little bit more challenging, when there are a lot of tears or there's crying and, or there's frustration going on. I have to remind Antonio, you are a professional communicator. You are a coach. How can you get this young one to listen? What's the approach you can take? And I have an amazing wife who I'm learning from every single day as a mother. How she connects to these kids and how I Can communicate better with them, but it's fun sometimes. It's exhausting, but it's definitely the best thing that I've done. I can't believe we live on this planet and we get to make people. It's ridiculous.

Is that wild? Like, we get to. We procreate. Like, we always talk about aliens and other galaxies. Like, listen, people, we are the aliens. Like, we. We totally. Sorry, I got weird.

I mean, listen. Sorry I got weird. Sorry I went on a tangent. Those are the highlights of the Pivot podcast, so I welcome all of these. I love anytime I hear, oh, but that could be a whole nother show. I'm like, that's music to my ears. That's. That's the juice right there. Yeah. You created not one, but two people. And then isn't it the great irony of humanity that not only can we create people, but then you create your little Buddhas, you create your little teachers. You know, it's like you think as adults, you're the one teaching them. And it is so often the other way around.

Absolutely. And every. Every day is different. Every day the questions are different. These two are so different. My BO is just ready to break stuff with trucks and all that kind of stuff. My daughter just loves dancing and her doubt. And it's just. Oh, it's just. It lights me up.

What I think is so incredible is seeing kids and also pets, dogs, seeing their personality and how early it starts to come in. Like, I've asked parents when. Now that you know Your kid is 4, when did you first see sparks of each of their own unique personalities? And I'd be curious, with your kids, how early on could you start to see.

Oh, that's a great. Quite a phenomenal question, Jenny. And it was early on. It was in the first. Definitely prior to the first year, I saw the difference in their energies and how they. They show up. My son is a pens. Pensive, really thoughtful. My daughter is the joker and just loves to laugh. And I saw that early on. And here's the challenging thing is the reminder, and I'm glad you brought that up, is how I think it's human natures that we can think about managers in the workplace, how we try to, quote, unquote, tame people. We try to make them fit into the boxes we want them to fit into. And I have to remind myself every single day, let this kid be the kid. Let them be who they are. Forget how you were raised and how things were done back then. Don't try to tame a stallion. Let them Be who they naturally are. Celebrate. Celebrate it. Let them be weird if they're weird. I just think about how society, we just try to mold people and we try to push them into these boxes. And I'm doing my best, Jenny, not to do that.

Oh, don't try to tame a stallion. Damn, that's so good. That's so good. As my Michael and I did a podcast. His, one of his professors told him, protect your flame.

Oh, that is. Yes, protect your flame. And we, we all got flames that we're letting die out sometimes. So I hope folks this reminded me I'm gonna check my flame right when we get off today to make sure it's still going strong.

Well, I can hereby verify that, at least from my perspective, it's stronger than ever. I love this for your kids and for yourself and for all of us. Don't try to tame your inner stallion. And thank you so much, Toni. I love that you said the twins are the best thing because that's the name of your podcast. I love that topic. For your show. Can you let listeners know where they can find you and, and remind us the name of your book too so that we can all. Well, you'll tell us when to pre order. You'll come back on the Pivot podcast. I don't even know if it's time yet.

Yeah, I'll let you know in a pre order, but the book is called Stop living on autopilot. Take responsibility for your life and rediscover a bolder, happier you. We'll come back and talk about that on the Internet. You can find me@theantonioneves.com and on there you can find my podcast. And the best thing is found in all podcast platforms. And Jenny, I really just appreciate you for taking the time to allow me to be on this phenomenal podcast. Thank you.

Me too, Tony. Thank you so much for being here. It's just amazing to keep crossing paths with you along the way along our journeys. And I'm completely uplifted and energized to be here with you. So thank you again so much. Thanks everybody for listening.

Thanks so much for listening to this episode of the Pivot podcast. Make sure you don't miss an episode or my insider tips and templates by signing up for Pivotlist, a curated twice monthly newsletter where I share the inside scoop on what I'm reading, watching, listening to and the latest tools I'm geeking out on. Sign up@pivotmethod.com pivotlist get show notes from this episode@pivotmethod.com podcast and connect with me on Twitter at jennyblake.

Remember, build first, then your courage will follow. Hasn't it always.