245: Business Development Misfires and Best Practices with Terry Rice

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If you're not a personified version of what your audience is seeking to be in their transformation, then that alone is going to cause issues because they can't see their future in your actions. So I think the more that you focus on your personal brand and your character brand by sharing stories about your past or what you're doing on the day to day, the easier it becomes because you'll build a tribe around you, not just the thing that you offer. And that's how you get paid for who you are, not just what you do.

This is your time. How can we earn twice as much in half the time with joy and ease while serving the highest good? That is our guiding question here at the Freetime Cafe, your home for heart based business. I'm your host Jenny Blake. Join me for conversations with authors, friends and fellow business owners as we explore ways to free your mind to time and team to do your best work. Now onto today's show.

Welcome back Free Timers. I'm super excited to have Terry Rice here with us today. Terry is a business development consultant and staff writer at Entrepreneur Magazine. He's the host of the Launch your Business podcast, helping Entrepreneurs make Money, Save time and avoid burnout. I have to say he's a fellow systems thinker, so I can't wait to get into this today. He's also the author of Start yout Own Consulting Business, your Step by step Guide to Success. I'll put the link to that in the show notes and he has previous experience in internal consulting roles at Adobe and Facebook. Terry, welcome to the show.

Hey Jenny, great to be here.

You are fresh off a conversation with Dame and John of Shark Tank who I've watched for many years on TV and you said it's not your first, that he's actually been one of the most influential mentors in your life. So we'd just love to hear how you got connected with him in the first place.

Yeah, it's funny because I've admired Damon for, I guess going on 30 years now with his clothing brand FUBU coming out the way that we got Connected was through my podcast Launch youh Business. His team reached out in regards to some really cool stuff he's doing at the Apollo pretty soon. And the reason why that I admire him so much is if you just listen to his stories, how he was just so resourceful in regards to growing his clothing brand, fubu, initially, and I'll share one story, he didn't have money for advertising or any kind of promotion. So what he did is he went to the most popular clubs in New York City, like hip hop clubs that his audience would go to, and he gave away free clothing to the bouncers. That way, everyone who's outside the club waiting to get in sees these huge dudes wearing shirts that say fubu, his brand. And it's basically free advertising for him. So those are just like the way that he thinks, okay, I don't have this resource. What can I do to still get the same impact in a creative way? And. And I think if more of us thought like that, that whole, like, more or less divergent than convergent thinking, we'd see we actually have a lot more possibilities out there than we imagined.

And even that story when you said he gave shirts away, I was thinking, yeah, yeah, that's a tried and true strategy. But not to the bouncers. Normally you think of giving it to the VIPs, the ones at the private tables, but they're inside in the dark, even just sweating through the clothes if they're dancing, you know, and meanwhile, the bouncer is the billboard out in front. So. Talk about divergent thinking. I definitely would not have thought of it that way if I were running a fashion brand.

I can say that, yeah, yeah, he's a bright guy.

How'd you get connected with him?

His team reached out to me just through my role at Entrepreneur magazine. Wasn't quite as organic, actually. The first time I met him was at south by Southwest. And I think anyone should go to, like, those larger conferences because you never know who you're going to meet. But the way that he delivered content I was impressed with and actually encouraged me to, to change the way I deliver content is because he always had information that you could use immediately to your business, to your life, whatever it is. And I know a lot of people want to be inspirational, motivational, so on, so forth. I want to do that, but also I want to help you achieve the transformation you were seeking by hearing me speak. And I learned a lot just from hearing him on stage out back.

I've seen him once too, and there is a ton of production Value like a video sizzle reel plays before he comes on and there's music and there's clips. But I love what you said about the very practical advice. Do you remember anything that stood out from those early talks? Like the thing he shared that made you not only say, I can apply that immediately, but also, yes, I want to start adding that into my keynotes, that kind of thing.

Here's one of my key takeaways, which might sound counterintuitive, but during his presentation, this woman stood up and said, hey, I know that you have dyslexia and I teach at a school for dyslexic children. Would you mind just sharing some advice for them, some encouragement? And instead of just shouting something from the stage, he actually got down, walked over to the woman and said, hey, take your camera out. I want to make a video for your students. He made a personalized video for these students saying, hey, look, you might feel like you're different from everybody else, but actually you have a superpower because you have to focus more to make sense of the words you're seeing. And that focus is going to help you in other areas of life as well. So this is five years later. I still remember that. I know the kids remember that too. But what I learned from that is you can't just speak to your audience. You actually have to interact with them, to engage with them and realize like they are your customer. Right. But you work for them, essentially, and the more you give, the more you'll receive. So for him to get off that stage, even being as big as he is, you know, he's, Damon John doesn't have to do this stuff. And for him to still realize I can make an impact with this one individual that stood out to me. And that's why I reply to every single DM I get. Everyone who emails me, I always follow up because I know what that felt like for me and I want to make sure I'm giving my audience that same respect as well.

Shifting gears to your story a little bit, I was struck by the introduction of your book. You said in 2015 you started your own consulting firm with a focus on helping brands grow through digital marketing. You said, I figured if I could do it while working at Adobe and Facebook, I could do it for myself too. But when I worked for someone else, I was being spoon fed amazing opportunities. So I never considered how hard it would be to get clients on my own. What do you think the biggest difference is? Like, maybe speak more to that spoon fed feeling of having done this at huge companies like Adobe and Facebook, and then that kind of splash of cold water to the face when you got out on your own of what the biggest differences were.

I think the challenge with being an expert, right? So an expert entrepreneur, so you're a consultant, you're a trainer, so on and so forth, is you're really good at that thing. That's what you did at your 9 to 5. And you're like, okay, I'm going to do digital marketing consulting independently now. But what you don't realize is all the other stuff you have to do before you get to the thing you're good at. And that's the most frustrating part, because even on my end, like, I went to business school, I have an mba, I have no clue how to run a business, or at least I didn't back then. So it's like, you just want to help people, right? You just want to show value, you just want to make an impact. And you're stuck going through all these initial phases of getting attention, getting people to sign on with you, then the admin stuff, so on and so forth. So it was really that. That just stuck out to me the most because I was spending maybe four hours a week actually doing work work. The rest was just trying to get clients, maintain them or keep my systems up, up and going. So that's the part that really stood out to me the most.

That's an interesting comment that you even went to business school, but they don't necessarily teach you how to run maybe a small business. Like, in some ways, I haven't been to business school or gotten an mba, but I would imagine that they teach you how to run here huge companies. And yet it sounds like there was a gap in your experience from B school to what you were doing on the ground with your small business. What do you think they miss? And do you think that they should add that to MBA programs?

I think what they miss is the fact that first of all, you gotta crawl before you walk. You're taught to be a leader in business school, not a doer. And I think that's the biggest problem, right? You come out, you have this cocky attitude, you're like, oh, I'm gonna be a future business leader of America. But then you think to yourself, oh, I'm too good to learn how to use the fax machine. That's part of the problem, is there's not enough gritty, resilient work that you have to do or learn how to deploy. And as a result of that, when you go to the real world, you're like, okay, well, where's my corner office? And that was not the reality that I faced even in the corporate world. So I think that's the biggest deficit.

So what was the biggest shift you made then? From not really knowing how to get clients and having to spend all week kind of floundering around to starting to get a system in place for business development?

It goes back to Damon John, actually, and learning how to borrow other people's audiences. You don't have the money to pay for ads. You have to borrow someone else's audience. First of all, I messed up, and then I found a solution. So I'll tell you both parts of the story. I want to work with entrepreneurs here in Brooklyn. So I joined the Brooklyn Chamber of Commerce, and as a result of that, I could message all the other members. There was like a couple thousand members of the chamber at that time, and. And I would just cold message them saying, hey, do you want my help? No one responded. So that didn't work, clearly, even though I spent two weeks doing that. So I thought to myself, well, how can I borrow their audience in a more efficient way? And I then reached out to the Brooklyn Chamber of Commerce and said, hey, can I do some free workshop for your audience? Digital marketing for founders or something like that? They said, yes, and then promoted me to their list. Also gave me a conference room in downtown Brooklyn. I show up there, there's 60 people just waiting to hear me speak. And here's the part that kind of threw me off. Some of the people that showed up, I know I messaged, and they never replied. So I'm like, okay, now you're here because Brooklyn Chamber of Commerce said they come here. But either way, I did that presentation and just alone, I landed two clients from that. So heck, that's the heck. Find a way to find someone who already has access to your audience, provide value, in this case, by way of a workshop, and then absorb the attention you're getting from your target audience. So from there, I started doing these free talks at libraries, at coworking spaces, anywhere that I knew my audience, meaning entrepreneurs and freelancers, would be. I would speak for free there because I knew it was the best way to market myself. And I made a decent amount of money on the back end as well from getting these leads.

And you call this your golden link strategy, right?

Yeah, yeah. I had to give it a cool name. It's better than saying speak for free at WeWork.

I love that you told that story because I happened to listen to that episode today. And I thought, how many of us can relate to hitting dead ends trying to cold email people? And then all of a sudden if the tables turn and you speak for free, there you go, you have all that access. My question to you with this strategy though is do you feel that sometimes by the time you're pitching them, it's almost like the wrong positioning that it comes across as they want to think they found you and if you're pitching them, you're somehow less appealing to them as a workshop candidate?

I wouldn't think that way because it wouldn't really help me. That's just my personality. I would say, hey, look, maybe they will feel that way. I'm going to DM a hundred people today though, so maybe 80 of them feel that way. Two of them will reply and say, hey, come on in for a talk and I'm going to get paid. So I think that's part of entrepreneurship is realizing like there are no sure bets. You are going to try different things, you're going to fail, but if you let a self living belief hold you back before you even try, you won't even come close to your revenue potential. By design, I put myself in uncomfortable situations where I know the chances are low of getting a yes. So maybe it's like a contract for like a hundred thousand dollars for, you know, like some kind of speaking engagement or something like that. The odds might be kind of low, but heck, I only needed to work like once or twice out of a couple hundred and I'm doing pretty well. That's the way I think about it.

That's a great point. So you're saying that you're cold pitching, not necessarily to deliver for free, but sometimes even to get paid and that those work?

Yeah, I'll say like early in my career it was always for free. But I realized after like maybe like my fifth free talk, I made about $4,000 from attendees. So I was like, well, heck, I can get more yeses from these organizations speak for free than I would if I charge. So If I do 10 free talks and I make whatever, $40,000 from it, that's better than me pitching a hundred people to get a pay talk, maybe getting one. Yes. I ain't gonna make $40,000, especially back then. So I think initially your goal is just to get on stages as often as possible, not worry about getting paid so much, and then from there learn how to make money from the audience.

And would you give that same advice even to an entrepreneur who, let's say they don't think that they like keynote speaking. Maybe you have a twist, a way to help them see it differently. But what if someone says, I don't want to be delivering all these keynotes? Are there other things you've seen work in terms of generating golden links?

Yeah, I mean, the way I see it is this. Like, I, I can share the path I took, that I know worked for me. If that doesn't feel comfortable and you've tried it, then, yeah, don't do it. Right. Because you're not going to want to continue. If you don't feel comfortable speaking, I would make sure that you don't like it by actually trying because maybe the last time you talked was in college or something like X years ago. I would make sure you don't like it. I'd also see, is there a different way I can do it? Can I just do webinars from home? Maybe, like, not being in person will reduce some of the pressure, anxiety, whatever it is. But if you, you can make this work, it's pretty cool. It just is because there are people who've heard me speak, like, five, six years ago that are still reaching out, saying, hey, thanks for this, or can you help me with that? So on and so forth. But to answer your question, what if someone's like, look, I don't want to be a speaker. This woman that I worked with as a coach, she's like, look, I don't want to be a speaker. I don't want to post on social media, I don't want to do podcasts, I don't want to write, and I also don't want to work with men. And I was like, okay, well, heads up, I am a man. You know that. In case it wasn't clear. But what we found was the best way for her to grow her business was by growing her network online. So she joined several online communities of female entrepreneurs. So it could be Slack, it'd be Facebook, so on, so forth, whatever it is, and just interacted with them. She didn't really pitch herself just enough for them to know, like, what she does and how she helps people. That's how she's growing her business now. It's just through relationships with, with other women that are also entrepreneurs. And she'll see, skipping all the stuff I talked about, none of the social media stuff, no speaking, none of that whatsoever. So what I would say to anyone who feels that way is do the whole thing we talked about earlier. Do some divergent and convergent thinking. So what are all the Ways I could use to grow my business. X, Y, Z and so forth. What are all the things I hate? Cross all those off, right? And then from there, what is the easiest to deploy that has the highest potential for upside that you can consistently do? That's all you gotta do. It's just really that consistency that you need once you find what works for you.

We'll be right back just after this.

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That part speaks to your love of systems and process. What have been some of the game changer systems that you've put in place around business development? Turning it from ad hoc, just kind of random outreach as you feel like it, to what you describe as having prospects continuously reaching out to you and being the ones to ask you, hey, do you think you could help me? And just kind of turning the tables there? What have been some of your favorite implementations?

One simple thing to remember is this Biz dev before branding. Why am I saying this? Because I see people exhaust themselves trying to create content on social media to build their brand. So they're making all these reels, they're dancing on TikTok, they're doing all this random stuff. Great, do that. It's a good idea. But whenever you're posting on social media, end of the day you're hoping your target audience sees it. You're hoping they understand what you do, and you're hoping they reach out to you, right? Hope is not a strategy. So what I would say is, yeah, sure, eventually, you know, create this amazing content. But also do biz dev, like literally reach out to someone and say, would you like to pay me money for my services? Here's one way of doing that, right? So on my end, I'm still looking for paid speaking gigs. I'm not speaking every day, you know, I'm not getting Flooded that much. So what I did is I identified event planners who work at companies that I want to speak at. So maybe they have at least a thousand employees doing at least $5 million in revenue, and they're based here in the U.S. i can take that Persona more or less. And I'm using a tool called Apollo I.O. which essentially allows you to contact people that fit that Persona. And instead of me just emailing them and saying, hey, do you want to book me to speak? I'm actually going on LinkedIn and interacting with their content there to build a relationship. And then eventually I'll pivot to saying, hey, by the way, if you need speakers for your upcoming events, I got you, right? That same strategy I just talked about will work regardless of what you're trying to do. Identify who the gatekeepers are, who the decision makers are. It doesn't really matter. Find people in that category that are active on social media. They have to be active. In this case, comment on their post. But when you comment, don't just say, great post. Ask a question. Because when you ask a question that starts a conversation, you can go back and forth. Eventually that conversation goes to dm, DM goes to Zoom, and all of a sudden they're a client or a partner. That's all you gotta do. It's really simple. It just takes discipline.

Fascinating. And do you have a goal of how many of these you're trying to do every day or every week?

Right now I set a goal for myself of doing a hundred per week. And this is just DMs. This is not my email outreach that's already running in the background, Just a hundred. Because I want to see what happens. And the reason why is I have to feel comfortable doing things that feel uncomfortable, especially for my audience, because I have to say, look, I'm not just telling you something I read in a book. I learned it, I lived it, now I'm teaching it to you. So there are times when I'm doing stuff, I'm like, man, I don't want to freaking do this, but I know I have to be authentic for my audience and try it out. So it'll be an experiment. We'll see what happens. I'll write an article about it and share some of the key takeaways. But, yeah, I'm upping it to a.

Hundred just to see what happens with that much activity. I could imagine that you've learned some lessons already along the way about especially these moments of moving from open comments on something they create into the DMs. And then from DM to a meeting that seems like a crucial leap that you kind of want to get right and you don't want to give somebody the ick. So I'm curious, have you had interactions where you could just tell in hindsight, shoot, I messed that up and here's why. And then what you have adjusted to.

Do differently whenever you project lack or scarcity, that's when things aren't going to work out too well. Because normally the people can help you the most, have the most requests for their time or assistance. So you want to practice strategic patience and realize, look, this might not come to be for like, you know, three, four, six, nine months, whatever it is, but I'm going to start now. And that way x months later, I'll start reaping the reward for this. And the cycle just keeps on continuing, right? So month one, you reach out to a hundred people, month two, what's another a hundred people, so on and so forth. The month one people might not turn into anything until month nine. But as long as you continually do it, you you're always going to have a steady flow of people coming in that want to work with you based on this approach. That's really it. Just not being too thirsty to be honest. And I also like trying to find an opportunity to give first. And this is going to be a very ridiculous example, but one potential speaking engagement I was working on for a while and the way that I actually got the yes from it was by pointing out a slight typo on their website. I was like, hey, by the way, you spelled entrepreneur wrong. Super easy mistake to make. You know, I do it all the time and I write for Entrepreneur. Just just want to let you know. So that way you're presenting yourself in the best light that you deserve to do right. That alone just giving first was the tipping point. So if you can find a way to solve a problem for somebody before you even ask for anything, that usually yields better results. Another thing I like doing, and I don't want to go too far on a tangent is this. If that person or organization has a newsletter, subscribe to it, subscribe to it, and reply to their newsletter. You're much more likely to get a response respond to someone's newsletter than you are from a cold dm. So just go that deep into your journey of building this partnership with them. So to the point where you feel comfortable, yes, reading their email, yes replying, so on, so forth, knowing you won't get an immediate impact from it, but you're Building a valuable relationship. So again, that's strategic patience.

What's so good about that is that you can't always find their email online. But there are a lot of people that publish newsletters, and for me, I have a few newsletters. I don't get as many replies directly to my email as people might think. And on substack, it's very easy to comment. And it does create a little deposit in that person's bank account because they think, oh, wow, this person took the time to leave a comment or I too have gotten to know readers because they reply letting me know about typos. And I'm always so grateful. Like, you really just helped me fix something that was a broken link or a typo or something that was confusing. And I feel like that's such a gift.

Yeah. Again, it's like if you just think, what can I create with this person? Instead of what can I take from them? Like, just that mindset shift alone will help you build more powerful relationships and a better network.

So well said. What can I create with this person? And what do you think some of the most common mistakes are when it comes to business development or landing business. So one of them is being impatient. Another one might be projecting, lack or scarcity. I'm curious how you see that manifest in a way that people might not realize any other big ones that you see with your clients that you have to break them of some bad habits, even if they're many years into running their business.

I'd say it's not having a good offer, to be honest. I mean, some of the pitches I see are just like, about the service. Like, we help entrepreneurs create 50 pieces of content per week for just $50 a month or whatever. And it's like, that's not an offer. Like, that's a thing. So the offer is, hey, would you like to be recognized and rewarded for your expertise? We have a solution for you we'd like to talk to you about. That's the way you would phrase it. So it's almost like you're too close to the service sometimes to communicate to your audience in a way that they'd want to hear it and learn about it. It's like emotional intelligence, empathy in writing, whatever it is. But it's that it's like you might have a great service, but the way you're presenting it is horrible, unfortunately. And that's why I help people build their offer, just because that sometimes alone can be a tipping point of getting a reply and a yes or a no or getting ignored. So it's that offer. Because. Classic example of, you know, if someone's drowning and you're saying, hey, do you want a life raft? They're not going to say no. Right. But if you don't present your offer in the right way, that person who really needs your help won't understand it and won't accept it.

Yeah. It's almost like having a really strong offer and positioning. And I know Alex Hormozi is someone who talks a lot about this and $100 million offers and now $100 million leads. I'll put those in the show notes. But it's almost like you gotta have the right offer and the right positioning around it, even before the biz dev and then before the branding. Otherwise, those subsequent things aren't gonna work.

Yeah. And I think the other thing is just your story, your founder story, your backstory, whatever it is. Because as an entrepreneur, being an expert is a prereq. Like, that's not enough to make you successful. Maybe at a job it is like, oh, yeah, Mike is really excellent marketing. Great. Mike, you're gonna keep your job here. You might get promoted, but as an entrepreneur, there's a bajillion other people who are also great at marketing. So you have to express your personality by building not just your personal brand, which is important, but also your character brand. Right. So what do you actually care about? What are your values? And I think the more you put effort into that, the more you make yourself more unique in the marketplace. Because often when people work with me, they might want help with either their business or their mindset or their routines. That's normally what it falls into. But they'll say things like, you know, I reached out to you because I see that you're very active with your family and your kids. I have four children. Or they'll say, look, I don't know how you speak on stages, have a podcast, have four kids, and still work out like that. Like, how can I do that? If you're not a personified version of what your audience is seeking to be in their transformation, then that alone is going to cause issues because they can't see their future in your actions. So I think the more that you focus on your personal brand and your character brand by sharing stories about your past or you're doing on the day to day, the easier it becomes, because you'll build a tribe around you, not just the thing that you offer. And that's how you get paid for who you are, not just what you do.

I Love that you brought up your four beautiful kids. Because one of the principles at Free Time is setting time free through systems like what small steps can we take today to free our time far into the future? And I think that business owners need that as much at home as in the business itself. Like oftentimes the business is the fun part and a lot of adulting is really annoying. And with four kids, that's a lot of logistics that you're juggling. So I'm curious, what systems have you implemented on the home front that are allowing it all to flow relatively smoothly?

My whole day is scheduled in advance and I'll give you a few examples. So like, I create content, right? I'm a writer, I'm a podcast, so on and so forth. And I did an audit and I realized I need at least 12 hours per week to write content. So that is blocked off on my calendar already and it's blocked off in the morning because that's what I'm most creative. I don't always know what I'm gonna be writing those time blocks, but I know I need that time to create content. Then I also schedule in breaks for checking emails, also learning, interacting with online communities, so on and so forth. But the most important thing in regards to family is the back half of the day. One thing that used to frustrate me is when I was working on a really big project or finishing an article and I had to stop to go pick up my kids because it's like you're in flow state. You know, you're feeling it like, okay, this is great. You're like, oh shoot, it's 4:30. I have to get my kids. I don't want to pick my kids up and be in a bad mood because they stop me from doing some fun creative work. So I just don't do that in the afternoon. What am I doing in the afternoon? Boring stuff I don't want to do in the first place, like admin work. Then I'm like, thank God I can go pick my kids up and stop doing this crap, right? So I think just scheduling that stuff like that in as a system is beneficial. But I also schedule in one on one time with each of my kids too, because with four of them, you know, it's hard to get a word in ed wise. So to maintain those relationships by design, I have one on one time blocked off with all of them, as well as my wife in the evening, just talking to her about the events of the day. But discipline is destiny, right? So the more disciplined you are. You're more likely to arrive at that destiny that you have, so that vision that you have for your life. So for anyone who wants to do something similar, I have a suite of tools that I help people with in this approach. But the very first thing is just getting clear on your vision. Okay, cool. Now what do I have to do to live in that vision? What do I have to do? Become learn, experience and sacrifice. Get clear on that and then make a routine that would lead you towards that as well.

I've never heard sacrifice included in that list, and I love that you bring that to the forefront because we often do have to make tough choices. When you did that exercise for yourself, was there anything that bubbled up in terms of what you would need to sacrifice?

Yeah. It's unfortunate I had to sacrifice the amount of one on one interaction I have with clients just because for my time that I have available and the revenue goals that I have, I have to charge a decent amount of money for one on one work. And not everyone can afford that. Right. So that's just kind of how it goes. So luckily there's a solution I came up with. I can't go too far into detail right now, but I have a partnership coming up with another entrepreneur organization that has a large community that serves entrepreneurs, which I'll be an expert in residence for. And I'm excited because then individuals that want to work with me at a lower price point can just join this community. They'll get access to me every week during office hours, but it won't be them like dming me saying, hey, I got a question about this proposal. So that's what I'm looking forward to, is being able to continue serving people. But I did have to sacrifice a lot of the one on one work I'm doing because I can help people at greater scale by eliminating that. And that's the way I think about it. I have a gift to give and part of it is biz dev, but a lot of it's just helping people perform at their highest level, overcome setbacks, create opportunities. I'd rather do that at scale through my content and through community, as opposed to just shepherding that information to a few people who can afford it. So to people who've been disenfranchised from entrepreneurship, I want to give them access through community and my courses.

So beautifully said. Last question as we wrap up. If you could give fellow business owners permission to do something differently or drop something altogether, what would it be?

You need to be unreasonable. And I think this will encompass a lot of key takeaways that I've been sharing. Be Unreasonable One of my favorite quotes by George Bernard Shaw is reasonable people adapt themselves to the world. Unreasonable people expect the world to adapt to them. Therefore, all progress is made by unreasonable people. So if you want to make progress, you have to be unreasonable, right? Go from needing to wanting. I don't need to make a thousand bucks this month, I want to make a hundred thousand and with no justification why. I just want to doesn't have to be reasonable. I just want to make that your North Star. Not just maintaining or slightly improving, like in a linear fashion. Go exponential, right? So just be unreasonable. Because what you'll do is you'll find other people have already laid the path to success because success leaves clues. There's so many other visionaries that were unreasonable as well, yet still found success, so why shouldn't it be you as well?

I love that there's two permission slips in there. Be unreasonable and also permission not to even have a reason why you want what you want or set the goals that you want to set. I love that Terri. This is so fun and I know there's all kinds of places people can get in touch. I'll put the link to your book and podcast in the show notes. Is there anywhere else you want to send people?

Yeah, the best place will be my podcast Launch youh Business where I have really great conversations with people, including Damon John, who you'll hear pretty soon on it.

Awesome. Thank you so much Terri. And big thanks to everybody who's here listening.

If you've listened this far, you get a gold star.

Thank you.

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