247: Cultural Appreciation and Remote Team-Building with Chris Littlefield

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What's next? This is a question we're all having to ask and answer more frequently. I'm Jenny Blake, your host of the Pivot podcast and author of the Only Move that Matters is your next one.

For show notes from this episode, visit pivotmethod.com podcast. If change is the only constant, then let's get better at it. Here we go.

Welcome back everybody. I am so thrilled to be here with my friend Chris Littlefield. Chris is an amazing guy. I think you'll enjoy our serendipity small world story about how we met and it was funny recording in the time of COVID Before we hit record I said sorry in advance for the construction in the background and he said, you know a four year old might pop in at any time and that's life these days. Chris is an international TEDx speaker, Harvard Business Review, Ascend contributor and the founder of Beyond. Thank youk. He's an expert in employee appreciation, recognition and workplace culture and was recently dubbed the camp counselor for Corporate America. Chris is an awesome guy and in a very short amount of time, I wanna say 60 days. Chris. Yes. In under 60 days he wrote and published his new book 75 Plus Team Building Activities for Remot Teams. Simple ways to build trust, strengthen communication and laugh together from afar. Chris and Chile, welcome to the show.

Good, good to be here Jenny. And yes, that's just what life looks like right now. I mean like we may have a four year old bust in behind me right now. I have a pair of fairy wings that I made out of shish kebab sticks and the wrapper from a flower bouquet of flowers from the grocery store. It's just this is what my office looks like and this is what life looks like right now. Right?

I feel like we should be on video so I could see. Oh my God.

I'll send you a picture afterwards.

How long have you been living in Chile now?

We have been in Chile for six years actually you know what, six years this month and we have been in lockdown in quarantine for the last three months of it been Completely locked in our house. And so I've been here for six years. And then before that, you know, we had the connection with Lebanon. I was in Lebanon for four years before that. So I've been actually living and working remotely for the last 10 years because.

I married a woman who works for the United nations, and we've been living around the world since. Even though I'm from Maine originally, you.

Know, as we say that I'm drinking from a mug from my friend Bethany's podcast called Working Wife Happy Life.

I always appreciate when Michael drinks from this mug. That's the name of her podcast. I did a really fun interview with her for it, and it just reminds me, Working Wife Happy Life. Like your working wife has taken you around the world. And, and. And you're an international speaker as well, so it's. It's cool to see how you have also used that as an opportunity to expand your perspective. I love. You know, there's so much talk in the States right now and globally about diversity, equity, and inclusion. And you bring such an important cultural inclusion perspective, whether it's something from respecting or even scheduling meetings and employees, time zones across the world, to the culture questions that you included in your book, which I' come back to. Those are so good.

So much of it is really. It's just people just want to be understood and seen for who they are. Right. And we often get stuck on those stereotypes of people, of what I perceive someone to be like or what we think they're going to be like. And, you know, when you've traveled or when you've been around the world, so many of those perceptions just get shattered because here you are. It's like, you know, I think you're just starting to talk about Lebanon, but it's like landing on the ground with all these perceptions of what the Middle east is going to be like and then having those shattered in your first five minutes of being there.

Well, you and I had a funny connection. We were introduced, of course, by who else? Dori Clark. The one and only. The one and only. Greatest connector I think I've ever met.

Exactly.

And she was trying to connect us to get me a ticket to a conference that was happening in London. You were in Chile, and we went back and forth over email. And then it was a couple weeks later we met. I spoke at her Rexcon event here in New York City. You and I happened to sit next to each other, and you spotted my necklace, which is really funny. Do you want to share those second half of that story?

Yeah. So, yes, it's funny. So I think we had gone back and forth, and I remember when she's like, jenny, like, I could have seen this name before. Who is this? I'm like, oh, that book, Pivot. The blue one. Right. I bought it for my wife. And then we had gone back and forth, and I said, hey, I'm not gonna be able to attend this event because there's a revolution going on down here. And you're like, oh, well, I'm married to this Lebanese guy, and there's a revolution going on in Lebanon, so I get it. And then I don't think we interacted much after that. And then I showed up at this event, and there was, like, this standard Lebanese Arabic, your name and Arabic necklace. And I was like, I've seen that. And I saw those everyday people had these beautiful necklace. My wife has one. I'm like, Arabic. And you're like, yeah, my husband's Lebanese. Like, you're Jenny Blake. And we've been going back and forth. And then I think I sat down, and then we spent the whole day sitting, chatting about Lebanon, the craziness of it, the beauty of it, and just Lebanese culture and all that. And it's just a cool, cool way to meet.

When you had lived in a specific neighborhood of Beirut in Lebanon, where my husband grew up.

Exactly.

So it was even triangulated down to this tiny neighborhood of Ashrafi.

Exactly. In the craziness of it. And for me, too, it's like that country. So whenever I meet somebody who's been there, who's lived there from that culture, like, Lebanon is probably the one place I've lived outside of, like, my home, where I felt this, like, deep emotional connection to the country and the people, because it's just so insane in all the good ways and in all the bad ways as well. Well, but it's like, I always joke and explain Lebanon is, like, this abusive relationship because it's like you absolutely love it and absolutely hate it at the same time while you're there, but it's just. You can't stay away. I was just back in January to do some work with the UN there and, like, landed on the ground right as the revolution kicked back up. And I land there, and they're burning tires in the street, and I'm like, welcome to Lebanon. Right.

It's pretty sad what's going on there with the hyperinflation, the corruption, the hunger issues, and extreme hunger. I mean, I don't know. I wish there was a solution, Honestly. I wish and even foreign aid, they're hesitating to give foreign aid, which Lebanon desperately needs, because the leaders are corrupt, which is what the people have been protesting about since the fall. You know, I'm sure you know how it started. But they were trying to tax WhatsApp, and the people were just like, 25 cents f. Yeah, yeah. Which they got rage because their phone bills, cell phone bills are already over $150 a month. And with electricity cutting every night, I mean, okay, so we won't go on the Lebanon tirade.

Such a beautiful place with such beautiful people. And I. Yeah, it is.

You have a couple people that are, you know, like, anywhere. It's like whenever you see a problem that persists that could be resolved, there's always somebody who benefits from keeping it going. Right. And that's the thing that was so apparent to me. And I think it's also for organizations, like, if we keep on having this problem over and over and over again, who benefits from keeping it going in that country? You know, it's always, you know, with the electricity. They could have had 24 electricity a long time ago, but there's people who make money off of generators, and so they block, you know, power plants coming in and things like that. And it's. It's just sad because you have the most beautiful piece of land that I've ever seen. I mean, if you've gone up to Bishadi and up into the mountains, into the cedars, and here you are with snow in the back, and people don't even realize you can ski in Lebanon. Right? And here you are up on a ski mountain with these huge cedar trees and looking down these valleys out to the Mediterranean, eating this extraordinary food, and then you just have this political mess that keeps this country crippled, which is just absolutely heartbreaking.

And that is an interesting and important inquiry for a lot that's broken around the world is who's currently benefiting. And I think a big part of the protests that are happening right now is, at least in America, and I know they've been echoed elsewhere and in Chile, too. I mean, again, your country's in revolution as well, is that a lot of the problems that exist exactly as you said, benefits a small group of people who are in power.

And them keeping it that way is just comfortable and easy, opposed to doing the work. And as a lot of people are saying right now, sitting in that discomfort of realizing that I may have been part of the problem or I am.

The problem, I don't think they care. I mean, the problem when you have these incredibly narcissistic, power hungry leaders that rise to the top and then corrupt and benefiting from the power structures, they don't care. You know, if they care, they would have changed it by now. So I get why these revolutions are required because it's, they're, they're not fixing things of their own accord.

No. And people need to make them so uncomfortable that they want to actually consider doing that or it looks bad enough if they don't do it or get reelected if they don't.

Yes.

So anyway, sorry, you're going to read something you said.

No, I want to, I want to put on the record because these questions are so good and I know that listeners may be part of. Well, everyone is remote right now. I think with rare exception, maybe essential workers are not remote, but a lot of listeners will be remote and a lot of listeners will be part of or leading teams with global team members. And even if not, if you have a partner, an in law, a family member who's from another country. These questions from Mr. Chris Littlefield are so good. So I'm going to read them. He said the best way to learn about cultural differences is by taking the time to ask questions. Here are a few to try. What do you wish people in my culture or country understood about working with yours? What are the silly mistakes foreigners often make when visiting or working in your country? If you moved, what would you miss most about your culture or country? If I was going to come and visit, what advice would you give me? And then you say, do your research. Be aware of local holidays and cultures. Put them in your calendar. Don't assume that people observe those holidays, but don't assume that they don't. And maybe even schedule meetings in your employees or team members time zones. So thank you for those questions. I told Michael I want to record a separate podcast where I just ask him those four questions about living and working in Beirut.

Oh my God. Yeah. Because just so many times and I think those questions come out from just making those assumptions about somebody. I'll always remember working in Oman and having this assumption, you see the dish dab that people, I think I'm saying it right, that people are wearing or seeing someone at a job and having these assumptions about people's cultures. And then I still remember this woman came in and it was at a conference and she was doing a speech and she was, you know, talking to. It was an American woman and she was a comedian. And this guy literally walked behind the back screen. It was backlit. He Took off his dish dad like there. So he's in his boxers and then comes out on the stage afterwards in his box on stage and was like, she's like, I did not expect that to happen. I've never seen that ever happen where someone took their clothes off on stage. And it was hilarious to watch. But it was just this perception of someone being conservative, right? And people tend to be more conservative in the US than in the majority of the world. Even though people think that, hey, people are more liberal in the US which tends to not be the case.

Can you think of a time where your lack of knowledge about a certain culture and their work practices, like, I don't know, because in all of your travels and all your work with countries around the world, was there a time where you kind of learned this lesson the hard way?

So I don't even like, I'm embarrassed to even share this one, but a couple times where I just made some just really, really silly mistakes. So one group, one group I was with and I never sing songs even though I've worked at camps, everything like that. It was facilitating between a group of folks from Armenia and Azerbaijan. And you know, these are these 10 day retreats and you know, we've got 10 people from either a conflict and then I've got a co facilitator from Armenia and a co facilitator from Azerbaijan. And so I never sing songs. But the truth was I was being a little bit like feeling a little bit. I'm seeing there was this guy in the group and he was doing a lot of activities and doing a lot of the work that I was doing. So I feel like I had to do something to do my job. And so I started singing this song I had heard at this peace conference in the Hague several years before. And it was, I don't know where it was. It was like Sike.

And I started singing this song and half the group is like bobbing their head and then all the Regeni group are just like their mouth drops and then they like stop and then everyone busts out laughing. I'm like, what? They're like, chris Sike la or some version of this word was like this really dirty word for like genitalia. And I was like singing this and singing it over and over again like on this thing. And the group was just like this. And I was like, oh my God, this is why I never sing. And it was like I did that and it was just like you just do these moments where it was just like absolutely embarrassing. Totally and just, you know. Yep. And that was that way. There was probably my most embarrassing moment in front of a group where I'm sitting here to try to do something, to have fun and laugh. And they got a good laugh out of it. And they still remind me of it. Probably now it's been about eight years later, I'm laughing.

Thank you for sharing that because. Oh, I think that's one of the trickiest parts about language learning. And clearly, I mean, you were just stopping through. I had two moments like that. One. First of all, at least my husband and his friends. Arabic has such a love of language and flowery terms, even for very.

And then there's Lebanese Arabic.

Yeah, yeah. And Lebanese Arabic. And so I overhear him a lot. And people joke that when you're learning just by observing, you're learning mostly swear words, you know, because that's just how he's expressing himself. And people in America, you would be shocked at the literal translation of these things. But for somehow they're. They're just kind of normal there. And one time we were out to dinner with his friend, and I don't know, something made me annoyed, and I kind of like, exclaimed this Arabic phrase. And they both looked at me shocked. Like, women don't say that. Like, it was okay that they would say that. And I just didn't know the full meaning. And once they reiterated the meaning, I was like, oh, my God, I'm never saying that again. I don't. That doesn't align with my value system. I edited the word, the phrase to be something about menucha, which is a pizza food item. And then the second super embarrassing thing was I was complimenting a woman's eyes. Worked at a nuts shop. And I tried to do it in Arabic, and I ended up saying something to her that's like, extremely patronizing. Like, what you'd say to a little kid, like. Because I'd heard Michael say it too, to me, are like little dogs that he thought were cute or. I don't know, I misunderstood. And his family laughs at me. To this day, I don't think they'll ever let me live that story down. Like, what did you say to that woman again? Or to his mom. I even said it like, you know, and the meaning of the word is like, to a little child. I thought it meant model. You look like a model. No, no, I was wrong. And I had said it to his mom and to someone else, so, yeah, at least got a great laugh out of it.

But for the first year, I was like, someone Would say, and then you respond with saba noor. But I would say, I would say, like, I would say the same thing back. So they'd say, good morning. And I'd say, like, I don't even remember. I respond, but I always said the wrong thing, like back for like a year and nobody corrected me. And then someone finally had the courtesy, like, not actually this. And then I just gave up. I was like, I'm not even gonna try. Because I think one of the things that I've always done over the years, it's like traveling all these different places. I just kind of always came from the place of be kind and ask lots of question, right? And spend your time learning, opposed to trying to be right or trying to say the right thing. Because I think anytime you try to do that, you usually fall on your face some way, right? And it's like, hey, I'm going to try. Is this the right thing to say? Did I say the right thing there? And like trying to say a few words and then going back to just asking a lot of questions and it's always the safe way to go.

I love that. Be kind and ask lots of questions. That could be our mantra for the rest of the world as well.

I think so. I think so. And spending time because it's, you know, one thing that's. It's happening so much now. I watched it extremely interesting interaction unfold on LinkedIn the other day with this woman that I've met a few times before. She's an organizational consultant and she put some huge thing up complaining about the book around white fragility and everything like that. And she made this really political statement about it. And I hate this book and this woman's a racist and everything like that. And then this black woman responded in the comments saying, hey, I agree, this book is kind of racist. And this is kind of an off statement. There's a lot of people who have been really great white allies to me, and I think guilt never goes anywhere. And the person who posted immediately responded right afterwards with, well, I think you should read the book. And she started attacking the person back, not realizing that the person had just agreed with her. And then this person was like, don't should me. And completely closed off. Because so many times we get up on that soapbox and we start sharing our opinion, already ready to defend it, not realizing that someone may be trying to listen and actually support us. And it completely shut this other person down. And I actually connected with them when afterwards I said, I just want to make sure you're okay, because I got you were trying to support this person and what they did is they attacked you back. Right. And it's just so often when we get on that soapbox, we stop listening. And right now is a time where it's more about understanding than it is agreeing with people.

Yes, that makes sense. That's the one thing that I find so perplexing about parts of the very positive movements and momentum that's happening is the hyper rigidity that you could have on all sides, on both sides of the political spectrum. And I've certainly been in rooms and conversations where even somebody who what they're saying is like super liberal and progressive, but they say it in a very rigid way that unless you believe and do exactly this, as I say, you're wrong. And in my experience that has never built a bridge. It just kind of creates this fragility. Talk about fragility. Fragility, rigidity, an impenetrable barrier where there's no pleasing. And so people stop wanting to try. And I've been on the receiving end of that and found it quite frustrating. Like here I am, I'm knocking at your door. I want to try, I want to do better. And feeling very shut out. And in fact today, just today, I saw in the newspaper that 150 plus academics and artists have gotten together to write a letter about this phenomenon saying we need to still be able to have an open dialogue even as we fight for change.

Yeah, 100% in making it safe. Early on in my career, I used to work at the center for the Prevention of Hate Violence, which no longer exists. It was part of the University of Southern Maine. And we'd go out and we'd run community race dialogues and facilitate anti bullying and harassment workshops in schools. I remember a co worker of mine, and she's black, growing up in Maine and there's not a whole lot of diversity in the state of Maine. In the southern part there is. And the reason why the organization even existed because there's been a huge influx of refugees from Sudan, from Somalia into this, like all white Maine. And a lot of the problems that came out of that, just people not understanding. And so much of what we did and what we were trained to do was how do you make it safe for people to ask the questions, to say the things, to make mistakes, and then be able to speak up when someone's like, hey, you know what doesn't feel good when you say that? Or here's how this, here's how I hear this Word, or here's what this symbol means to me. And if. If we make people wrong, right, that's when people take a side opposed to. If we take time to listen, to be curious, to understand what's going on for that other person and what their experience is. People want to be seen for who they are and their contribution, not for our stereotype of them. And that works on both sides of the line in one. We need to remove the line in the first place so that we can actually understand the other side anyway.

So then, okay, because I'm with you 100%. And then where I get confused and I understand where certain parts of these movements will say, no, we absolutely have to draw a line. Not drawing a line hasn't worked. Silence is violence. You must speak up and you must do this now, and you must do it in this way, or else it's not enough.

Enough.

And there is a part of me that. I get it. I really do get those sentiments as well, that this laissez faire say whatever you want, you know, like, it's all. It's all good love and light. There's a lot of anger that that's not enough. And. And there's this call for people and companies, as we've seen so many companies, to be more specific, more. More direct, more vocal. And so how do we reconcile those two things? And I do think a lot of what's happening in 2020 is also rolls up to being able to hold a paradox. You know, like, we need to be open and understanding and bold and direct. But what would you say about how to reconcile? Because there are valid points to be made about. Well, no, you know, you need to be more firm. You need to be more vocal and that very directive kind of parts of the movement.

Well, I think you kind of hit it there. It's like, we got to look at. Why are people saying that? Why are people saying. It's like, yes, because you've changed your profile picture for every different group or every different problem that became in the news. And I want to see action. Right? And I think that's that element of, like, when we go, no, I need to be firm on this is I don't trust you're going to change. And three months from now, there's going to be another fad and you're not going to be listening. And I think that that's why that comes up so much. And this whole one that silence and violence is. I think it's. We all want a catchphrase. We all want a Motto, Right? But the problem is when we get stuck on that motto, we forget what the message is behind it. Right. Silence actually is in violence. Not speaking up doesn't mean you're being violent to somebody else. What they're saying is, okay, you're being resigned, and we need to all be speaking up right now. Because if we want to see a shift in this, if we want to see a change in behavior, well, we can't be quiet about it right now. Right? But silence isn't violence. And if we keep on putting that up because it's a great Instagram post or a great LinkedIn post or wherever, it perpetuates a belief that, well, oh, wait, so what am I supposed to be saying right now? And I'm scared to speak up and I'm not sure what to say. And. Right. And that element of like, hey, why are people saying that? Because they don't want people to just say something and then this to be the next fad. And then six months later, two months later, we see another death that didn't need to happen. Or we see that the policies that are going on in the government didn't change. Right. And so to actually see people put their money where their mouth is or put people into positions where there's greater. And I'm even now I'm like, wait, is equity or equality? I'm not quite sure which word am I supposed to use right now? But I think either way, right now is getting down to why are we even having this dialogue and what am I going to be doing on the ground.

One year from now to know that we made progress on this? Opposed to what am I going to do right now that's going to look good, that's going to be good marketing for our company around this subject.

Absolutely. I love the way you put that. And, you know, it's interesting because statements like that, they are powerful. They do create debate and dialogue, and they can be important for that reason alone. Like, okay, yes, this is. We're putting it in terms that are very stark, but wake up. Wake the f up, you know? And I think that's a big part of what's happening.

It's kind of like this element of like people taking a literal translation from something they read out of the Bible, out of the Quran or something like that. It's like, well, this is just kind of a line. And now let's reflect on what that means. Right. Let's think about why are people saying this right now opposed to this is fact. Right. And then being Able to. Because when we get stuck on trying this literal translation of something, we often miss the meaning behind the statement or the analogy behind it. It or the purpose behind it, if that makes sense.

Yes. It's so interesting you bring that up because one of. One of the most powerful classes I took when I was at Union Theological seminary was Bible 101. But they taught us that there are so many ways that you can read the Bible or a sacred text. You can read it literally, you can read it allegorically, you can read it historically, what was happening in the world at that time. You can read it as liberation theology. You can look for why did they write it in this way at this time, given the history of what they were going through. You can look at it historically in the sense of how has this document unfolded over time and evolved culturally, like almost the cultural evolution of the document and how it has influenced society and on and on. I mean, I'm just recapping from memory, but it was so interesting because then, yes, any one line.

Can. Can be looked at in so many different ways. And literal translation or literal hermeneutics, I guess it would be like how you read something is only just one way. It's only just one way. There's so many ways to. To turn something over. And I guess that's what makes our sacred texts so powerful, is that they are so multifaceted.

I think there's. You know, I got like, chills when you were saying that, because it's just that reminder of like, whatever we're focused on is what we're going to see, right? So if we're looking at what's the literal translation of this? Or what is. What's the possible meaning given that time right now, and how much that applies everywhere else is, hey, what are we. Are we looking at what's going through society? What frame of reference am I taking right now doing this? You know, when I was working in conflict resolution work and we'd run an activity on perspective, and it's a silly little activity that I'd have people sit around in a circle on the floor around me. I would say, draw me from where you are, right? And so everyone would draw me from their perspective. And of course. And then you'd see all the different perspectives come up and it's like, what are you seeing right now? So from where we are, from whatever we're choosing, whatever lens we're choosing to look through, right now, I'm seeing what I'm seeing, and what we're seeing gives us so much insight about what's going on for us right now. If I'm seeing anger in the world right now, like, what space am I coming from? If I'm seeing love in the world right now, what space am I coming from? Right. There's a facilitation book called the Zen of Groups. And I remember, I think this is where this was. It was an activity of, you know, what are you listening for today? And whatever we listen for is what we tend to hear. And are we listening for the gold in others? Like, what's the huge contribution in what this person is doing right now? Or this person's angry. They seem to be angry right now. But if I listen to their contribution, I may hear something different. So this person's yelling about being stuck at home and everything like that. And it's like, okay, if I listen for the gold and what they're sharing or their contribution, instead of hearing their complaints, I shift to actually hearing, wow, you know what? You're at home, you're really struggling. You're taking care of your kids. You haven't been able to go out. You have a lot of uncertainty about the future, and you're still showing up and coming to work each day. And so when we listen from a certain intention or review a text or certain intention, something new shows up because we're looking from a different perspective or angle.

That's such an important.

Such an important reminder. And I'm sure you've read Nonviolent Communication, and it also reminds me of a book called Hold Me Tight about intimate relationships. And in both cases. So nonviolent communication is about what are the values that the person cares about? And often two people who seem like they're in intense disagreement actually can connect around our shared human values that underlie whatever it is the disagreement stems from. And then the book Hold Me Tight, also recommended by Dorie. It's so good because it's like when you and your partner are. Are fighting, you're in the dance of fighting. Basically, one person needs to step outside of it and see, oh, my partner just needs a hug. Oh, they just need reassurance right now. Like, whatever it is that's being said, it may have just nothing to do with anything. It's actually a not so subtle cry for, I just need you to see me, love me, appreciate me. And that goes us all. That takes us all the way back to your work, which is all around going beyond thank you. And how to do we actually appreciate each other?

Well, and how do we do it? I mean, this is the pivot I made. You know to use the word pivot at some point in this podcast, right? I have to.

Way to go. I also like that you said pivoting and Corona vading in a pandemic. So we're coming back to that. Oh my God, that's hilarious. So, yeah, good product placement. Way to go on.

Innovate, right?

Exactly.

So no, is, is, is I. The reason why I shifted from, from conflict resolution to employee recognition was largely just because much I watched this toxic work relationship transform through a recognition exercise. It was like when nothing else worked with these conflict resolution partners I was working with. It was a 15 minute recognition activity. And when I started digging into why did this work and I started looking at, and I started looking at when people don't feel recognized, what happens? And the one thing that came to it is like at the heart of all of our conflict is the real or perceived experience of being valued by the other. If I feel my partner values me, if I feel my co workers value me, I feel like my boss values me or doesn't value me. It impacts how I see and interact with them. And when we feel valued, we relate to feedback as a contribution. If you think about it, when you feel valued by somebody and they give you feedback, you may not like it, but you're like, okay, I'm going to listen to this. Pisses me off, but I'm going to listen to it, right? And you're thinking about it. But then when you don't feel valued from somebody, the same message occurs as criticism or an attack. And so, you know, based on whether we have that experience to feel valued or not. Right. Dictates how we communicate and how we receive communication from somebody else. And so everything that I've been doing is really about how do we create environments where people feel valued every day and knowing that we just can't create it once. Like when we say I do at the wedding, it doesn't mean that all the work's done in the relationship, sadly, right. Is that we have to keep on building and keep on having those conversations, keep on challenging, keep on listening to keep on, keep those lines of communication open and ensure that other person has that experience that we value them.

The wedding analogy is a great one. And it's so interesting, it's so interesting how your work parallels so much of the DEI movement that's happening in that DEI is not a one time thing. You don't check the diversity box and say, oh, we're diverse, but are you genuinely including people and in your case, are you genuinely appreciating and valuing them and creating connected teams, even when we're all working remotely or so many of us. Again, not everybody. I just love how you're saying, yeah, it doesn't stop at. I do. That's the least of it.

That's. That was the easy part.

Yeah, that's really. So speaking of corona vating, I like the portmanteau of coronavirus and innovating in a pandemic. As I said in the intro, and you had told me you wrote and published this latest book, 75 Plus Team Building Activities for Remote Teams, in two months. What the heck? How did you do that? How did you find the motivation to do that? You even have a four year old at home.

It was painful. I mean, it's a short book, but I have to admit, writing is definitely not the thing that comes easy to me. And I don't know if there's anybody that really. It does come easy too. But I think it was just me looking and it was funny. I think I was. I saw it. Was it. Is it Catherine Hayden? I think it was also in one of the. One of the courses I did with you a while ago and we were chatting and she had been accepted to south by Southwest. It was talking about going there. And then literally right after I got off the phone with her, I saw, I think a BBC update that south by Southwest had been canceled or postponed. And when I saw that, I was like, like, this is the start. They're all going to start getting canceled. And I had something coming up in April that I was supposed to be at in Kansas and another one in May. And I'm just like, everything's going to get canceled and we're going to be in this for a while looking at how this is unfolding. And so I thought, okay, what can I do to be a contribution right now? And like I said before, everything I do is about how do we create these environments where people feel valued and what do people need right now? And I've been working remotely for 10 years. And like I said, I have a lot of activities. Okay, let's put some resources together. And I created this quick kind of 15 activity guide and I got like 100 downloads in like the first couple days. It was up. And I was like, you know what? Let's see if I can create something more. And I just. One day I put a timer on for two hours and I just opened up an Excel spreadsheet. I just wrote, how many activities can I come up with right now. And I just listed all the different activities that you and used in my in person workshops that I've been using with organizations in my, in my work around recognition for years. And then I just started to write a list. I think I got up to like 95 and I called a friend who's an improv like hey, what games would you add to this? Or what activities or questions would you add to this? And so I just started listing it all down and I got up, I got up to about 101 and then I realized it's like, eh, some of these aren't really worth the time. And so I cut it down to 75 and I had a meeting with Dori Clark coming up and I use that as kind of the pressure to be able to have something. So even though she didn't know I had this deadline in my mind, I created the deadline. So I was like, okay, I need to have a draft ready by the time I meet with Dori in two weeks. And so I got that initial draft done and checked in with Dori, hey, what do you think about doing this? Do you think this is a good move right now? She's like, if you can get it done the next couple weeks, go for it. And I just went on and I'd never published something on Amazon before, but I got it all formatted all the stuff together and then got it out. And yeah, it was about probably 60 days, a little more than that, start to finish with all the formatting. But.

Bird the book in a short period of time and got out in the world to try to be able to be a resource for people that.

Now I'm so impressed and it is amazing. Like if I want to say if you lead a team, but no, if you're a part of a team of any kind, these ideas are so good. I mean we don't even have time to get into many of them. But let me give you a few title highlights. The Eminem game, My World, your world, Local tour, Pulse Check. Like why asking how are you doing today? Is really silly way to start a meeting or to actually get a valid check in from people and instead having them give a number on how supported they feel. I mean these are so good, they're so fun. They really bring delight into. Because I feel major screen fatigue. And I did a podcast, as I'm sure you probably saw on screen fatigue and then I did one on digital introverts and I feel it's been really challenging the number of zoom and the number of video content calls specifically. And if we, if more of us had your book and actually implemented these, I think it would add a little more delight back into the sum total of all these virtual meetings.

And just bringing play and variety, right? Like even in relationships, you know, whether it's interpersonal relationships is just having variety, not doing the same thing every single time and making all these interactions a little less awkward and a little more meaningful and thinking about, you know, how do we curate our culture online the same way we do when we're in person. It's like, hey, you know what, we need to do something fun today or you know what, we need to step back and check in. And the aim of putting the book together was to not just give games, right? Because it doesn't work to just play all the time either, but it's also having things like what can I do to check in? You know, what can I do to get to know people better? You know, we have new employees on our teams. How are we going to do that? How can we laugh and play? How can we keep on learning together? And you know, you know, in the work that you do. Jenny too, it's like with the curriculum and the coaching work and everything like that is helping organizations remember that we can't stop that employee development side of things, that career development side of things, just because we're remote, because you know what, this storm's not going to pass anytime soon and we cannot wait, keep on waiting for it to pass to when we get back to the office, we'll get back to that career development work and instead start to do it now when we actually all that time that was, you know, for commuting before and everything before that time, I don't want to say it's freed up, but we have less need for transition time necessarily to get from one place to another where we can schedule that time to have those one on ones with people to sit down and have that face to face conversation and then also schedule that time to recreate that water cooler moment or that time in the hall where we were joking. That actually were the things that bolstered our relationships so that when we had to get down to having the difficult conversations about the work, we had those relationships there and they were maintained so we could have those and could have them effectively.

Speaking of career development, I also think some of the big themes of the year are reckoning and reflection. So I know that a lot of companies have canceled pivot events or put them on hold. Oh, you know, we don't it's not the time to think about career development, but I think we need to think about it from a different perspective. And this is not just my self interest speaking actually work again, but that actually people are already pausing and asking themselves in this reckoning of am I happy in my role? Am I happy with how I was working? What would I do differently moving forward? These questions are already happening for people. So it is important to address the career elephant in the room, which is you might feel like everything's up in the air right now, or as I just drafted a newsletter, pivotless newsletter, I said, is anyone else feeling a total lack of motivation right now or is it just me?

And we need to. And people need that right now. If you think about it like one of the things that triggers that whole parasympathetic nervous system and arrest and recover that we need now more than ever, right? Is hope. Is hope that we're moving forward, right? Is people need to feel it. I've watched it with my wife, I've watched with the friends, like, man, I was just about to get this promotion, I was just about to apply for this job, or I was a finalist here and now everything's on hold, right? That sense of hopelessness and uncertainty right now the one thing that we can do is work on developing people and having the conversations of, hey, what do you want to be doing in the future? Right? This is the perfect time to have those conversations. And I think it's more important now than it probably ever has been before because there is so much uncertainty, right? And I think that for managers, this is the time to have those one on ones that you said you didn't have time for for the last, you know, six years, or those performance reviews to be able to sit down and just say, hey, hey, you know, given everything that's going on, one, how are you feeling? And two, how are you feeling prior to all of this? And when we, you know, moving forward, how can I support you to keep on growing and having those conversations that show people that you're not just supporting them right now, but you're going to support them into the future? And one of the things that too, as you were saying this is leaders can be putting their people in contact with other people in their network right now, hey, maybe they can't go and do it, but they can have a one on one or, or a informational interview with other people in other parts of the organization right now that before may have not been free. But the one thing that I don't know if you found this is people are saying yes to things that they wouldn't normally have time to say yes to because they are at home, because they are free, because it is low commitment to just hop onto a call with someone you just met on LinkedIn to have a chat because their profile looks interesting.

Definitely yes I've gotten In fact, I probably did try to get as enough enough yeses or no's for the podcast as I could have given that that's been the case. I know we're we're short on time, which is too bad. We'll have to do another round. Tell us speaking of your business name beyond thank you, tell us why compliments, the difference between compliments and true appreciation. Just give us the 62nd and by the way, just to before we go there, I like your 1/6th rule for meetings that for every 60 minutes, 10 minutes should be devoted to relationship building. So for those that 1/6 of your meeting, check out Chris's book. But Chris, can you tell us the difference between compliments like you're amazing and true appreciation?

Well, I think one is maybe part of a formality, but the intention of all of them is that we're signaling to people and showing people that we value them. Right? And not to go into it because it's really long, but I'm trying. One of my goals in my missions is to kind of update how people think about recognition by kind of separating. Because most people, when they think of recognition, they collapse reward and award with it, right? Where rewards and awards aren't recognition in of themselves, but a delivery tool for a message. And so I break it down to what are the different actions that signal to people that we value them? And there's appreciating the person acknowledging the circumstances, recognizing the effort and the progress, and then rewarding results and awarding standout results and appreciating the person are those little things that we do every day. And sometimes it's words, sometimes it's an action. Actions to signal to people that we appreciate the person, we appreciate their contributions and most importantly, we appreciate what they sacrifice every day to do the work that they do. Right? And we do that by, you know, not only sharing with people, hey, I appreciate what you're doing right now, but also showing them in our behaviors by, you know, not sending messages at, you know, 4 o' clock in the morning because we get it off our to do list. But now they wake up and they're thinking about it at night, but, you know, being, you know, for all those working parents out there. It's, you know, adapting. So, hey, you know what? But I'm not going to call you after five because I know you and your spouse have shifts and you're not available then. So it's all those things that we do to signal people that we understand and we appreciate that they have a life outside of work, and then we appreciate the nuances of what they're dealing with every day and taking time to check in and show them that we care for them more than just what we need from them. I don't know if that makes sense.

Yeah. Beautiful. Wow, you're good. That's like, you just wrapped up so much of your body of work in 60 seconds. Seconds. I love it. Way to go. That's how you know a true pro. It's fun to have.

It's fun.

I mean, I like to have diversity on the podcast, too, but it's fun to have professional speakers because, like, wow, how did you do that? You just tied the most beautiful bow.

One of those things where we. We speak and we talk about this subject all the time that, you know, you know, it's. And I think that's the beauty is when you get to talk to people that are passionate about what they're doing, Right. Talking about you and your work and everybody you bring on the podcast, it's, you know, it's. I think one of the gifts we can give is. Is giving other people an opportunity to share what they're passionate about. Right. I think that's what you do in the podcast is every time you invite somebody in, it's a glimpse into their world, a chance to be able to connect with the amazing Jenny Blake and also to be able to share that thing that they really love and they're passionate about in the world.

Yeah. And I. Only people wonder. I have no logic to have how I book guests. It only goes on my own passion, you know, for the person or their work. So, Chris, I want to take one of your exercises, and I never. I don't have. I love podcasts that have a standard set of rapid fire at the end. I typically don't, but I want to take your COVID19 questions if you'll play this game with me. You've inspired me. Your camp counselor vibe has inspired me. Let's try. Try to give me the quickest answers that you can, and I'm going to go through your list of COVID 19 questions.

Okay, perfect.

What did you used to take for granted but really appreciate now?

Leaving the building and going for a walk. Around the block.

What is the silver lining in all of this for you?

I'm on the Pivot podcast with Jenny Blake because I wrote a book during this time that I never would have probably ever gotten together in this time. And I think the other one, I have to say there too is. Is having this kind of time with my wife and my daughter. As much as it drives me crazy some days, when you remove all the logistics and the commuting every day, life gets a heck of a lot less stressful. And it's nice to connect with them in the house, have lunch together every day. And that's a silver lining as well.

Yeah. And not leaving, I didn't say. But it's so tough to not leave for two months, especially given how much you and your wife travel.

Yeah.

What has been the most challenging part of having to work remotely?

I think it's not getting that time on a plane where I was by myself. Right. Is not having any time solo or before I worked from home by myself, I was in the house all day by myself. Now I'm never by myself. And as much as I'm a speaker and I may appear as an extrovert, I am so much more an introvert. That having time by myself, having quiet time, that used to be my time in the airport, in the plane, in the hotel, before a speaking engagement. That's when I got to recharge that, hey, I need time by myself. And I think that's the part that's been missing most for me. And still not being able to get out of the building means I joke with my daughter that we're on a spaceship right now and she's the captain, so she can't leave. And so we've been on this spaceship for three months now. And I could. As much as I always wanted to be an astronaut as a kid, there's no way I could do that.

I can relate to that travel, recharging time so much. Like every element of it that you said, I miss so much too. Like even waiting for the flight, being on the flight, being in the hotel. Like, there were so many moments of just total built in solitude to my work that doesn't exist now. Even though of course, travel takes its toll too. But yeah, it does.

But it also played that role of variety in our lives as well. And the variety of people or locations of, you know, getting out of New York City, I'm sure, for you for a little bit. And even if it was a couple days away, that, that movement, that excitement of going someplace as exhausting as it was, it also played a role in kind of rejuvenating, at least for me anyway.

And all sides, because I used to do joke that I would go on a trip and I might be having a more hectic time or going from one thing to the next and come back kind of tired. Meanwhile, Michael had had 10 million breakthroughs while I was gone. Like we used to joke that it's actually great when I leave because he has five days to just totally immerse into his zone as well, of deep thought and reflection with no interruptions. No matter how much we love each other, it's we both value being in flow. And inherently when there's other people around, they just want to knock on the door. And even if it's to come give a hug or something, it still does break up the day in a very different way.

Yeah, exactly. And right as you said, knock on the door. Literally, my wife just knocked on the door. Oh, are you on the. Oh, you're on the podcast.

We're almost done. We have just two of Chris's questions. Last two of Chris's COVID 19 questions. Chris, what is your daily routine.

In 30 seconds? Seconds? It's wake up in the morning, go do a workout with my wife in the morning when we're both not on calls in the morning while our daughter eats breakfast. And then I take my daughter for school from literally in the house from 9am until 2, make lunch and normally when my wife's not in a conference right now, I then work from 2 to 7 and then bedtime, bath time and then repeat, repeat, repeat, repeat over and over again.

Way to go on homeschooling, working. Wow. And getting a workout in. You're on fire.

Hey, getting it where? Hey, you know that that's been the self care side of things. If that's not happening, the day's not going well.

I have to say I pandemic purchased a peloton bike. I never thought of myself as a spin person. I wasn't part of the whole clan that was obsessed with spin class. I only just wish I did it sooner. I wish I did it sooner. I'm now on a 25 day streak. I I used to do yoga and pilates but no intense cardio. And by the way listeners, for thinking of I'm like this flush with cash. They have 0% financing for three years so I'm ending up paying about a hundred dollars a month for the you subscribe to their classes and the bike itself and that's amazing. Oh My gosh. Like just the ability to get a burst of intense cardio. Which again is not my inclination if left to my own devices. But. Oh, here. Hey, there's a device pun. But it has been great. I really only just wish I got it sooner. And I have the mirror. I'm like, I've now equipped. Maybe that's my silver lining is I've equipped. I work in an office with a bunk bed above me. That's actually the guest room with a podcast closet that's now the peloton closet. Like what I've been able to do with this one room that I call my own. It's really funny.

Oh my God.

Yeah. So I'll put a Peloton affiliate link in the show notes in case any of you want. I think it gives purchasers or credit as well.

There you go. My, my friend Kevin who like he literally told me they moved up because they were living in D.C. with two kids in a two bedroom apartment and they were going crazy. So they moved with his wife's in laws up in, in Long island. And the one time they left the in laws house was to drive back down to D.C. to pick up the Peloton bike to bring it up with them because they were going crazy when they weren't getting their exercise. So another plug for. He's like, like it's. It's the only thing that's keeping me sane right now. So I need this. And so they literally drove I don't know, what, eight hours down and back to be able to just pick up the bike because they needed it.

It's helpful.

I don't know. I'm slowly getting sold on it myself.

It just gets her done and in a way with good music. And again, I still don't consider myself some kind of like spin die hard person, but I need it. I need it for my mental health. And it does help me kind of, kind of clear the decks when I'm losing my mind. My dad has a saying, pay for the day that. And you do that. You and your wife pay for the day by getting the cause. My dad would say that the adrenaline can turn sour in your body if you don't work it out. And there was a while of the pandemic where I just wasn't getting any workouts in. Just too tired, so.

And you just go insane. I just find that I'm on edge and you know, I'm in this like, I just say that it's like that, that early on motivation. When I got the book done was kind of that, like, I'm inspired. I'm going to use this time for something positive. And like, as that motivation goes down that like the. If I was to have like a chart here, it's like level of energy goes down, level of pissiness goes up. And it's absolutely need to have a day away from you too. I love you, but I need to like go downstairs, lock myself in a room that you can't interrupt with. So you know, like, or go sit in the car for a while. Right.

And then the bike or the gym. Yeah, the bike or the gym becomes that little pocket of time that's your own of free time. So that brings us to our last question. What have you been doing to take care of yourself, even to rest and recharge during this time?

Oh, man, it's been a mix, but I think a lot of it has just been. I've been having a lot of calls with friends and another silver lining of this would be the fact that I have my two best friends from college. We're on what's Up Together and there's just chats and laughing and play going on and we've even done the Netflix parties together.

But just.

Just having that connection that for some reason never happened before at the same frequency and now it's happening daily. And I think that that connecting that laughing with friends that, you know, having. I have a call on Saturday morning with my. My buddy Nihar and we just chat about work and with family and being home with young kids. And I think that kind of connection is that perspective outside of the house that you're in. Because I can chat with my wife, I can chat with my daughter, but the truth is sometimes you need to talk to people that are outside of your world. And I think that for me has been the best self care to be able to just laugh and laugh about the craziness of some of the stuff we're doing and dealing with, you know, inside this whole mess.

Yes, please tell Nihar I say hi because I loved meeting him at Rexcon. He stands out among everyone I met. You and him both phenomenal. It's funny I joked with Dory. She's been my pandemic sandwich. Like she was the last person I saw before everything went on lockdown. Going to see her downtown was the last subway ride I took in. It was on March 6th. And then my first subway ride that I took has been on July 6. Ish. So exactly four months was to go see her in Petra for dinner in Battery Park City. And we just felt like humans again. We could eat outside. It was so necessary. Just total oxygen for the soul to just go do that. So.

Well, a moment of normality. And I think that, like you said, I'm glad because I wanted to ask you all the questions back and I think you're answering them each at the same time, which I appreciate, you know.

Well, no, I wanted to because you were asking me. I was like, wait, can I ask you too?

Yeah, you can.

I think that time of just. Just playing to the sanity of this and being able to give each other time to be able to laugh, we need that more than ever. And finding normality in this and routine in this, I think is the only thing that keeps us sane. Right. I don't know about you, but I'm like, I got outside the other day and I walked out and I was like, I'm trying to explain to a dawn, you're not going to have to wear a mask the rest of your life. This is just for now. This will pass eventually, but we're probably going to be doing this for a while, so.

My niece is four and a half and she calls it the sickness. It's crazy how it's shaping kids. Yeah. And how little kids and the bugs.

The one thing, I'll say, the one thing to add to these COVID 19 questions. Silver lining. Yeah, one big aha and silver lining that I have experienced during this time is that a worser worst case scenario has occurred in my business, let's say revenue wise, than I could have ever thought to worry about. I would have never worried. I would worry that if I had lean months or I was in the red or needed to pivot and didn't know what was next. Okay. But I would have never thought to worry that a global pandemic would hit. All my jobs would get canceled at the same time and budgets cut. And then into the future, they would be not getting booked. Okay. So I cannot believe, and I will say, the month of March. March was a disaster. I mean, I was up and down all over the place, a lot of stress. But now, four months in realizing, oh, there's a lot to appreciate in the extra time. I too am working on a agile book that's based on transcripts from the podcast. I need to pull inspiration from you to get it done.

That's awesome.

But looks like the worst case happened and I'm still here. You and I are still able to chat and have a fun, great conversation and be lighthearted amidst all the insanity. And I can't believe it. I feel like moving forward in business, there's so little that I will be afraid of after. After going through.

Not take yourself so seriously.

Yes.

And it's just like, you know, and the thing is.

Or any one client so seriously, like, haha, remember that time we lost all our clients at the same time? It's going to be okay. Hopefully. She says, well, knock on what?

Well, and that whole industry disappeared. Right. The speaking industry right now in its standard form. You know, I saw something from the conference board the other day was like, would you feel comfortable going to a conference in New York City at the end of 20, 27% of people said yes. Right. Like, would you feel comfortable? And it's like, wow, in this sad reality. And I saw that, you know, it's like I had just moved all my business to mostly speaking. Right. So I realized I was like, you know what? I enjoy doing this more. You know, I enjoy doing this more than the coaching work that I was doing in the past. And even though I like certain coaching clients, I don't necessarily want this to be a bulk of my work. So I made that pivot. But then it's like, hey, you know what? Now I'm being asked to do it again. I think same. It's had me re. Look, I'm like all of my money was coming from one source of work. What other channels do I need to have? Right. What are my other ways to be able to be a contribution, to contribute to people virtually. And the thing that's been so cool about this, Jenny, is that for me, living in Santiago, Chile has always been a burden because I have to travel 24 hours or 48 hours to speaking event and then come back. And now this has been kind of like a. I don't see. Neutralized. What's that like? It's kind of leveled the playing field for me and everybody else because I don't have. It's. People don't relate to me as further away than anybody else because everyone's doing things virtually right now, which I think has also been a silver lining for me that I wouldn't have probably thought of until you just shared that. But I'm like, like, well, I'm talking to Jenny Blake in New York right now and it's no different than if I was, you know, across town.

And that's pretty good to do that. Yeah, that's such a good one. And that this happened to shift into an arena that you're incredibly talented at. So way to go. Thank you for providing these Questions.

Thank you.

And Chris, this has been so delightful. I just we hit it off completely within the first five minutes of meeting at Dory's event and this is okay. Different. Thank you so much listeners. I encourage you to check out Chris's book, 75 plus team building activities for remote teams. Simple ways to build trust, strengthen communication and laugh together from afar, which we are doing right now. Chris, where else can people find you online and keep in touch?

You can find me@BeyondThankYou.com if you're interested in the book. BeyondThankYou.com book and there's also a. I put together this team relationship building self assessment to be able to kind of ask these 10 questions of where at right now with creating that psychological, that emotional safety on our team and are we having fun and playing together? And then it gives you recommendations based on your score of what to try or start with in the book based on whether you need to keep it up, step it up, start it up. And you can find that on the book page as well@BeyondThankYou.com book.

Yeah, I love Kris also has a newsletter called the Nudge. Free tips, tools and reminders to take better care of yourself and your people.

Yes. Every two weeks comes out on Wednesday and it always has a download or a video or an action because you know, a couple of weeks that you had Billy, is it Billy? Was it Anderson?

Yes, Anderson. Yep.

You know I was listening to that the other day and you know he worked in Outward Bound, everything like that. He was talking about being up on that stage and I'm just about to try this something fun and the nerves come up. Are they going to like it? Are they not going to like it? And what I've realized is that in all this work that we're doing is it's so many times people want to take an action but they're just uncomfortable because they're not sure how people are going to react. And I think the whole aim and the whole aim of that newsletter in this book is just to give people simple things that they can act on so they start getting some wins. So we become a little more confident to be able to take those actions because they realize people are going to be receptive of them. And I know I still get nervous every time I open up an activity but every time I do it, people end up loving it or having fun with it and then we build those relationships that we otherwise would just sit through the same boring meeting over and over over again.

That's so cool, Chris. Thank you so much for being here, Jenny.

It was an absolute blast.

Thanks so much for listening to this episode of the Pivot Podcast. Make sure you don't miss an episode or my insider tips and templates by signing up for for Pivot List, a curated twice monthly newsletter where I share the inside scoop on what I'm reading, watching, listening to, and the latest tools I'm geeking out on. Sign up@pivotmethod.com pivotlist get show notes from this episode@pivotmethod.com podcast and connect with me on Twitter ennyblake.

Remember, build first, then your courage will follow. Hasn't it always.