248: Four Brand Personas, Biggest Mistakes, and Best/Worst Clients with Adam Chaloeicheep

Hi, this is Charles Michael Davis. Toyotathon is on. So stop by your local Toyota dealer for incredible year end deals on the cars, trucks and SUVs known for their legendary reliability like the stylish and efficient Camry. The Ready for anything RAV4 or check out a rough and rugged Tacoma or Tundra, all with great financing and lease options available to qualified customers. Visit buyatoyota.com to find out more. Toyota let's go places.

I've literally been on calls where again the CEO is going through some sort of moment and they say something that completely derails the conversation. And you will see everyone else on their team with those confused blank face of what just happened. Where are they going with this and what are we doing now? It's not even like shoot, if you love the own sign, cool. We can riff off of that. We can figure that part out. It's more of when they're communicating of what they want to do and why. Where. A lot of times there is no why. It's like I don't know why we need to do this, but it's just a feeling. It's just a feeling guys. I got that tingle. That's where they start losing us and losing the team and it doesn't work out.

This is your time. How can we earn twice as much in half the time with joy and ease while serving the highest good? That is our guiding question here at the Freetime Cafe, your home for heart based business. I'm your host Jenny Blake. Join me for conversations with authors, friends and fellow business owners as we explore ways to free your mind, time and team to do your best work. Now onto today's show.

Welcome back Free Timers. I'm just over here cracking up with my friend Adam Chaleucci who's back for the third time on the podc debating whether he's had too much coffee or not enough. In our last conversation on how to know when your business brand has become a liability, he mentioned this thing in passing the Jekyll and Hyde brand and then he mentioned a Franken brand and it turns out that these are part of four Personas or types of clients that tend to come to them. And so I asked if we could do another one third round and talk more about those four Personas and also biggest mistakes stakes when doing brand strategy. Adam, welcome back to the pod.

Thank you for having me and entertaining my over caffeinated personality right now. So I'm stoked to get into this.

Me too. And I should remind listeners if you're New here. Go listen to episode 45. That's where we go behind the free time brand. Adam is the co founder of Together Agency with his wife Mari, who I had the great pleasure of working with for five years in the early days of jbe and they've done every single rebrand in my business or new brand.

So.

So they did Jennyblake me when that existed. They did the pivot brand strategy and a lot that went into the book cover design. We had to really wrestle with the publishers on that one. And then free time book, brand, podcast, swag, bff, you name it. So Adam, well, I'll let you start wherever you want. I'm just so curious about these four Personas and listeners. You can I guess, see which one might apply to you.

I'll go through them quickly and feel free to ask questions. Around them we see all sorts of clients, so they will range widely, but usually 90, 95% they all fall into a certain category. So the first one is what we call the blank canvas and that is essentially you have a business idea but absolutely nothing else. The next one is what we call the Jekyll and Hyde, which we're talking about. And that's essentially where your brand has gotten them so far and now it's holding them back. A very famous one is the Frankenstein. That's essentially when you have done a logo over here with someone, then six months later did a brand strategy over here, then two months later you hired a copy over here and everything is just a hot mess and again put together like a Frankenstein. And then the last one is like a tune up where it's really what we talked about last time, like a brand refresh and essentially getting a tune up of your brand to stay relevant and stay up to date. And if there are some kind of old elements, timely old elements that are still part of the brand, to rethink those.

I love the Jekyll and Hyde one. How come you came up with that name for it?

Because even the client wrestles with it, right?

Oh yeah.

They know their brand is liability, but. And they know that it's been working so far, but there's something about it that is going to work against them. The brand in itself is working, but it also can become an enemy for growth.

So these are really the four Personas. It's almost like the stage of brand status of the clients that come to you. So it's not that there's brand archetypes, because I've had actually previous guests talk about that. I'll put that in the show notes, it's not the archetype of their overall brand. It's the stage that they're at when they come to you. Or they need some brand strategy work. Is that right?

Exactly. And a lot of times through those first calls with a client and really trying to understand where they're at, they might think that they just need a tune up. And then through the conversation, they're like, holy crap, we're actually in this Jekyll Hyde moment here. And so through that discovery, it does help them understand what they need to do to go forward.

I think you need to rename the blank canvas to some kind of the zombie, or maybe that one's the ghost. And then Jekyll and Hyde, Frankenstein and then what's the tune up? We need some kind of scary monster.

Yeah, we could do holiday themes. That'd be fun.

Yeah.

You have two out of four. So the tune up needs to be like the freshly minted vampire.

Hungry vampire.

I think that they're all fun. Whatever stage you're at with your product and with your brand, these four stages, they're all fun to dive into. But I think we love the blank canvas. I think there's something really intimate and honoring of that. Really get in the weeds of even understanding the business strategy as well. We try to really bring a business strategy perspective to the brand strategy process anyways, but it's just really get into the business idea and really distilling. That is a really fun part of the process. So just talking about these out loud, I feel like we get a lot of the blank canvas and it's sometimes that's where the startups come in. It's fun.

Yeah. Or branding, like in my case, a book or a podcast. So it's not the business overall. In fact, Jenny Blake Enterprises has no brand. It's a ghost brand. It's a show company.

Yeah. But Freetime was so dope though, because yes, it was an idea of a book, but there's a platform and there's all these other kind of verticals that make up this kind of media company. So for us, it's so fun. And also this kind of ties into like what we're looking for in a client. You also kind of fit the Persona of a great client for us. So that also makes it an enjoyable process.

Oh, thank you. I actually wanted to ask you about that because I was putting myself back in the shoes of when we would start a project together. And I remember always being nerve sighted and as my friend Alex would say, totally excited and also nervous. I was often stretching myself and financially, but also kind of nervous doing this collaborative process with you and your team and not knowing how it was going to turn out. And I'm going to spend all this money. What if I'm not happy? I think every client just goes through these kinds of concerns. And I remember also wanting to be a good client for you. That's my people pleaser. I'm just curious, can you kind of walk us through? How can a client or someone who's hiring you or anyone who's hiring anybody to do this level of intense work? How can somebody show up prepared as the client? How do they block off enough time? What is it that you need them to do in order to ensure a successful project?

Well, let's talk about the mindset that is best serving you in the brand that we're going to create and work on together for the next three, four, six, eight months. First off, it's going to be a long term engagement. We're going to really get to know each other. What we like our clients to know when they're coming in is that first, it's a very collaborative process and you were great with that. So be prepared to take the time to invest in discussions, workshops, surveys. We really encourage our clients to write down their thoughts. Don't just spew them out. You know how it is when you actually write them out on paper, on your computer, they become so much more concise and you think internally to yourself about what you're trying to say and give that type of feedback and direction. Another big one that is really important for clients to know. Sometimes these fall into the camp of like, when it comes to the rebrand, you have to understand that branding is very emotional. For one, that's what we are actually trying to convey through branding, is building a relationship through those emotional cues. So when it comes back to your brand, we get it. This is kind of like your business, baby. You might be coming to us with an existing name, an existing logo, and you probably know the name needs to change. And you know we need a rebrand, but change is hard just in general. Every time we're about to present something, we're like, you're about to be thrown into the ice bath. You hired us to be thinking about your brand, to be authentic, but also think outside of the box. Anything new, especially the more attached we get to our current business and brand, it's just hard. It's just hard to be thrown into the ice bucket. We are also strategy first and so we understand how you connect with their favorite brands. And that's because there's meaning and depth embedded in the design from the very beginning. If you just come to us and say, hey, copy what they're doing over here, or just put out a few logo designs without really solidifying the brand first verbally, we're just not your team. The last one is brand definition. I think a lot of people want their brand to say a lot of things. A lot. Okay. And you're only going to get two or three major brand pillars, emotional kind of states through the communication hierarchy. Okay. And what's actually going to sit in people's memory banks? We're always like, listen, we're going to do our absolute best to convey everything this brand is. But the first line of your website can't say everything. And same for your logo design. And we will figure out what core ideas get communicated through what vehicle.

Got it. Okay, that's helpful. And what about when even a client who's trying to do all those things and puts proper time aside has the right mindset? What if they hit some point, inevitable bump in the road where they lose faith in the process or they hit a dip, or they get really busy and they're not responding? How do you get them back on track or just the relationship staying moving in the right direction?

We try to stay positive and optimistic. Part of the journey and part of going through. We're creating your brand ip. I think people forget that maybe we're not making an actual physical car engine here, but it's going to be your brand engine. There are always going to be bumps in the road, and we might not see eye to eye, but know that we're your trusted advisors. You hired us because of our decades of experience in what we're doing. And it might just take some work and some communication. For example, we went through a pretty big client. This is financially in just what they're actually working on in their industry. We actually went through the entire design phase and the client was approving, approving, approving. And at the very end, they were like, I'm not feeling it. They gave us the reasons of what they felt they weren't emotionally connecting with, and they felt very strong that we needed to get this one part right before we moved on to everything else. So we had some discussions about back and forth about some new options that we could go on. There was going to be additional fees and having to figure out, and they understood that. And so we course corrected. And we just went through this last week of understanding timelines and everything we had to hit for them for certain launches. And we really worked hard to figure out the guardrails for the new brand design. So we felt like we understood the playground. So really it's just about being open and having the discussions and just working through it. Our goal. We aren't one of those firms where you take equity and all that stuff personally. That's the way we work is we feel like we have skin in the game and we really, really care about our clients and what they're doing. When you put that much heart and soul into it, you don't want to just get frustrated and throw your hands up. And if you can't find a middle ground, we work hard to figure out what they need, how we can meet them there and then best serve them. Now, inevitably, there might always be a client or two where things go awry. And so we can always have a discussion about what it looks like to part ways and what can we do to make that as easy as possible. And if that happens, it happens. But for us, it's been so, so rare for that to ever happen.

You mentioned we're not one of those companies that takes equity or anything. What does that mean? How does that change the incentives?

This is not to talk negatively about any other design agencies, especially in New York City, where when startup culture was super strong in 2015, there were some design agencies that were taking equity on top of pay. I just felt like that really muddied the waters and I felt like just give them 100% just great service without trying to take a piece of it. And I'm not saying that it can't work really well in some ways. But my point is I didn't want to muddy the relationship at all. You are hiring us to bring our best foot forward to serve you with our true and tried processes from the past that we think work and that we feel like we can really be of service to you and help elevate your brand and hopefully move the needle. A few points for your business, if not a lot of. I just felt like why add another thing in there to muddy it up and just have the perspective already that we're on your team when you hire us. You might as well think that we're part of your company because that's the way we work. We're slacking together. Emails, I'll sometimes get late night calls. It's a relationship. And it's a relationship because we're in it for so long. We want to have a really good relationship. A relationship that's open and trusting. So the more open and trusting that we are with each other, the better the work's going to be.

We'll be right back just after this.

When the holidays start to feel a bit repetitive, reach for a Sprite Winter Spiced Cranberry and put your twist on tradition. A bold cranberry and winter spice flavor Fusion Sprite Winter Spice Cranberry Cranberry is a refreshing way to shake things up this sippin season and only for a limited time. Sprite Obey your thirst with Venmo Stash.

A taco in one hand and ordering a ride in the other means you're stacking cash back. Nice. Get up to 5% cash back with Venmo Stash on your favorite brands when you pay with your Venmo debit card. From takeout to ride shares, entertainment and more, pick a bundle with your go tos and start earning cash back at those brands. Earn more cash when you do more with Stash. Venmo Stash terms and exclusions apply. Max $100 cash back per month. See terms at Venmo Me Stash terms.

Okay, what happens when the opposite is true? Like, for some reason it's just not the right client? And who is not the right type of client? Like, we are all business owners here, free timers. We know what it's like having a client that drains your energy. It's just like we don't have to name names or anything, but I'm sure you've had them. You've been at this for, I don't know, what, 15 years now, if not more? So what are the types of clients that you would just rather not have?

I don't know if I'm just getting old or what, but this list is growing for me, as it should.

I feel like that's the wisdom of being in business discernment. Yeah, give us the dirt. I want to know all.

So what we've learned over the years, and this happens from time to time, one that comes to mind right away is just having too many cooks. The old saying, too many cooks in the kitchen. What I mean by this in regards here is that we've had clients in the past say, oh, hey, I got a great friend who's a super talented designer and they're working on something else for me. I might just kind of have them work on a couple of logo options once the strategy's done on just their end. I'm just going to do it just to see what they come up with as well. But really hiring you guys actually come up with a brand system. On the surface, you're kind of like, okay, cool, it's your company. If you want to have someone else explore stuff too, I guess that's interesting. But then in hindsight, I'm like, oh, if they're not plugged into our team and the way we work and our processes and understanding, part of the reason you're hiring us is because our team's synergy together is a secret power. Right? It's a superpower. It's a secret sauce. It will help elevate and create whatever we're thinking to the next level. When you bring in someone who maybe hasn't been vetted or is working as, like, an outside person on a design system like this, it becomes very disjointing for the team. It can also hurt morale. And then the client always has this leverage of saying, well, my friend did this. What do you think of this? When we're presenting our stuff, and then they're actually comparing the work at the same time, but they're saying to us, oh, no, but you're owning this. You're driving this. It just gets really confusing because at the point then it's like, well, we're going to end up with a Frankenstein design at the end of this, because you've got this other person doing their own thing in an echo chamber, and they are just setting you stuff, and then you're wanting to plug it into what we're creating. So it just messes up the process and becomes very frustrating for the team and the morale. And what's unfortunate is, a lot of times people will bring in or have other friends who are actually really good, talented designers, but there's a reason why they're on their own. Right. That really comes forward. That's the kind of too many cooks scenario.

What else is on that grumpy list? That's not even a grumpy one, But.

No, but you know what, though? You've got me on such a good day. Like I said, I didn't sleep well. I'm in coffee, you know, So I actually woke up really grumpy. So this is a great conversation.

Perfect. So the best rants.

Yeah, I would say, oh, this one really, really gets me is the air quotes. I'll know it when I see it. Ooh. Like, that pisses me off. Because what it means is they don't know what they want, and they won't take the time to figure it out and articulate their feedback. I get that design and all else can Be subjective. And we're trying to capture certain essences of a brand, and it's hard to understand, but we need much more than that. The I'll know it when I see it is essentially what you've done so far. I'm not feeling. But I can't give you any feedback about it. I can't give you any direction. So just keep throwing darts, you know, in the dark.

Especially somebody who doesn't like it but can't articulate that. And that's probably true for a lot of clients. What else? One more. One more for today's grumpy list.

This might also piss off some of your listeners, which would be funny. The CEOs who are going through spiritual awakenings.

That's hilarious. Continue. It's so specific. The CEOs who are going through spiritual awakenings.

I mean, I've seen it unfold over, like, the last decade. You and I both know, since we've known each other for so long. I mean, when I went to Thailand and plugged myself into a monastery for a year and did a bunch of other exploratory things, that was kind of like my spiritual awakening journey. But I wasn't trying to start a company. I wasn't literally doing it on my own. I think what drives me crazy in the rising now of like, psychedelic culture and Burning man and all these things, people now tend to think that they need to go drop into this deep esoteric state in the spiritual state. It's like what Adam Newman did from WeWork. He was trying to say everything was about elevating the world's consciousness, blah, blah, blah. And I'm like, come on. When you're sitting and bathing in the esoteric and you're navel gazing, you can't build a company. I think that when people go through spiritual awakenings, they think that, oh, this new venture is my calling now. Maybe part of that down the road is. But you can't lead. You can't be pragmatic. You can't think about the next steps. If you are going through some sort of internal crisis around spirituality and whatnot.

Well, and Birding man attracts a lot of people from the tech community. Having lived and worked in the Bay Area for a long time, I could tell you that it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see it. I'm curious, how does it affect the brand work that you do? Okay, someone's going through a spiritual awakening. We've all been there. We've all been there, and we've helped each other through it. But what is it that makes that so challenging for the brand strategy process?

I love how positive you are about it. I'm like, so down on it's true.

Hashtag, no judgment.

No.

I don't know. I'm a brand guy, so I think I'm full of judgment. It's hilarious.

You and Michael. Michael is the grumpiest. What I'm wearing, what anyone else is wearing. I'm like, excuse me.

It's the gift and the curse of what we do. I mean, I do my best to push judgments aside, but sometimes you want to make something great. I would say in regards to the tech bros out of San Fran going, I think a lot of those dudes just made a lot of money at a young age and they never really found themselves.

No, no, I'm not.

Is that.

This shit's going to go off the rails, son. Let's go.

We are absolutely already off the rails.

Oh, my gosh. Okay. That's for another podcast for sure. What I'm curious about is what makes it hard for you to do the brand work, you and your team in the midst of somebody's spirit, spiritual awakening. Like, there's obviously something about that that is very challenging for you and everyone involved.

It's because everything they feel, they think is a good idea.

Okay.

And that's like, again, this internal world, the spiritual world, everything becomes about feeling. Whether it's something from quote unquote, the universe coming down and telling you, yada yada. And again, I understand those words and I think that everyone should have a spiritual side. I think it's healthy. But when they think that it is pulling them in every direction, they actually don't really know. And it means that they can jump from idea to idea and literally have been through presentations. We are almost completely done with a client project. And they're like, when are you going to change the name? Literally two weeks before they launch. It makes no sense. Right? The congruity of where we started to where we're trying to go with the brand starts getting fragmented because they're getting pulled by their feelings. As I was saying before, brand is emotional, but you gotta be somewhat pragmatic about how it's actually going to turn into roi. It's going to turn into business. That is going to make you money.

I like that is going to make you money.

I'm really enunciating.

No, it's just like, at the end of the day, that is what we're doing here in business. And I have to remind myself that too. It's like, all right, this is not a hobby. This needs to make you money.

Make you money.

And what I hear you saying too, is that especially if it's mid swing, like mid process, that that ephemeral energy or those ideas, or sometimes what might be very cliched ideas. Oh, I want the logo to be the shape of an om or like a playoff of the ohm symbol or something. Like, I could totally see how just when someone's like in the thick of it, it can derail the process. And it's not part of that very well structured process that you outlined in the last episode and then kind of like veering off the vision.

Yes. And also, you don't really want the CEO or leader to be so abstract and all over the place. That doesn't create a good culture within the company. So when we're going through these projects, you gotta remember we're also trying to capture the company culture. Whether it's current people there now who you're going to hire. Part of your brand book and we're working on is we're working on the internal brand as well. When we come, like, with the value brand statements of this organization, it's not just the CEO's person, it's what they want the organization to represent. And they want the people who are going to come in to also value the same values.

Right.

They want alignment for that internal brand to understand. So it's the cultural side internally is also really important. I've literally been on calls where, where again, the CEO is going through some sort of moment and they say something that completely derails the conversation. And you will see everyone else on their team with those confused blank face of what just happened. Where are they going with this and what are we doing now? It's not even like, shoot, if you love the own sign, cool. We can riff off of that. We can figure that part out. It's more of when they're communicating of what they want to do and why. Where A lot of times there is no why. It's like, I don't know why we need to do this, but it's just a feeling. It's just a feeling. Guys, I got that tingle and I'm like, oh, my God. That's where they start losing us and losing the team and it doesn't work out.

We'll be right back.

Just after this.

We've got gifting all wrapped up at Sephora. Gift more and spend less with our value sets packed with the best, best makeup, skincare, fragrances and hair care. They'll love this year's Showstopper Gift sets are bursting with beauty products from Rare Beauty, Summer Fridays, Glossier Amika, and so much more. Shop holiday gifts@sephora.com and give something beautiful.

This episode is brought to you by State Farm. Listening to this podcast Smart move Being financially savvy Smart move. Another smart move having State Farm help you create a competitive price when you choose to bundle home and auto bundling. Just another way to save with a personal price plan. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. Prices are based on rating plans that vary by state. Coverage options are selected by the customer. Availability, amount of discounts and savings and eligibility vary by state.

Many a Tumblr and a book and a blog has been about like these types of client stories. Especially in the design world. Why is it that design brings out such nightmare client stories? What's the famous one of the guy with the cat? There's one that's so notorious. Come on, you gotta know what I'm talking about. Oh, guy with the cat is everything on the Internet. Oh, I'll try to think of it. There's a famous like multi page word document of a guy. It might even be fiction. But going back and forth with a design client, now I'm going to have to Google guy with cat horrible design client.

You know, I think that for a lot of years and I think this is changing and this was the whole reason why I wanted to start this agency back in 2014 was because I felt that designers were the new entrepreneurs and because we're always thinking about how to take a very complex problem and reduce it down to the most concise, understandable method, whether that's visually or verbally. And I feel like that's where kind of the human centered design quote air quotes again, because I know those terms are somewhat silly now, but it's like we're always deducing to what is going to make the most sense visually, pragmatically, phonically. And so for a long time designers were always in the back room, stuck in the back corner, at ad shops, at other places. And it was always like the sales reps who were glorified or the big crew director or the cmo. And a lot of times they're given feedback and everything. But it's those really great senior level people, mid level designers who are coming or even some of the really young guns out of design school that are coming in and they're just coming up with new fresh stuff that no one's thought about. It takes me Back to even when I was in my undergrad. When I was an undergrad, I was working for the newspaper. And when I was there, it did a lot of ad revenue. We were doing a million a year in ad revenue for a little school paper. Like, that's a pretty big deal. And I just remember I was running the advertising department on the ad production side, and we were stuck in this back little corner. And when I moved up to manage the entire team that following year, I negotiated with the sales team and said, let's mix every other. Let's do a sale. Let's do an account person, then a designer. Account person, designer. And let's put everyone in the same area and start working, have the same energy. The account people can actually see how much goes into designing an ad and creating a great ad and the production behind it. And then the designers themselves could see how the accountants operate and the quotas they're trying to fill and the timelines that they're trying to look at. So we get a holistic idea of what the world was for each of the departments. Because all it was was back in the day was designers were stuck in the corner and they're complaining about the count people. The count people are stuck over this corner. They're complaining about the ad people. That was my first understanding of, like, oh, okay, so there can be, like, harmony between these worlds. We don't have to be at war with each other all the time to get stuff done. That was part of my mentality when it came to starting this agency, is how do we make a designer? First agency, where the designers, the strategists, the writers, they're the ones who are glorified and understood on our side, and they're not the ones who just kind of get, like, beat up. Like, they're not the ones. And that's the stigma in the back of the day. All the designers used to always get beat up, and then they would slave for hours. And people don't understand, oh, it's just drawing a picture on a computer. No, there's grids and there's methodology and how you make great type of icon. There's so much more that goes into it, and it takes hours, hours and hours of time. Any designer out there who knows sitting in front of a computer for 10 hours to work on one icon, they understand the pain of how much time it takes. I think I'm just a big advocate and almost like a bulldog protector of our team in that way. That's one of our big principles at together is where we protect the people who are doing the actual work because we know how much goes into it.

You're the first person to teach me about grids and the golden ratio and all these fancy numbers and things and like just so spacing. And even a designer who's tweaking like making a custom font out of an existing font might spend five hours bending the corner of an R ever so slightly. I would also like to report back that my Google search guy with cat horrible design client was successful. Adam. The number one result is called Missing Missy. And listeners, you know I'm putting this in the show notes. It's from 2010. It is so funny. Again, I don't think it's true cause I haven't reread it in a while. But he makes all these posters. The premise is that a woman wants a poster for her missing cat and then he keeps designing it and she gives feedback but the feedback is just more and more annoying and the poster gets more and more annoying.

Oh, that's awesome.

Yeah, it's so good. I also found on board Panda worst client comments turned into posters. So I really like the color, but can you change it? I'm the target market and I don't like it. I know what I want when I see it. There's the right.

Yeah, exactly. There's a lot out there. And this is why I say like we really try to get to know you, your industry and your business. And that's what's so important about that beginning strategy phase. Because it really sets the tone of how we're going to work together as well. And we're trying to check as many boxes before we move to the next step. That's where the science comes in. This process driven steps that we have. That is what helps so we don't fall into those spiraling out comments that leave everybody kind of like looking up in the air of like where we go next.

There's been even from some of the client stories you've already told us, but it's not just one vague comment. It's probably a whole pattern of nothing is satisfying them. They're not able to give feedback. Therefore the designers are overworking and they're on their umpteenth version. You or whoever is the touch point for that client is struggling. The client's getting frustrated. In a way I could see it becomes a vicious cycle. And I know you and your team are so good about preventing that cycle from starting, but it's very easy to see how it could.

Yeah, it happens. It happens. And that's why we try to stay positive and optimistic. There's always a solution. We're always going to figure out how to get there or at least do our absolute best. We haven't lost a client yet. Sometimes it does take a little bit more, but that kind of falls into. We're talking about, like, we need to understand where they are at as a company. Things feel new. Sometimes it doesn't feel fresh. It feels like you're being thrown into an ice bath. There's shock. Sometimes it takes a little bit for the thaw to wear off before you can actually give good feedback, too. So that's why we never put anybody on blast. We're like, hey, give us feedback right now. We're like, oh, you might need to really think on this. Sleep on it. Get back to us in a couple days, right? Let's have another conversation. We build into our timeline. We cushion in extra time for reviews, for feedback, just in case we're not aligned on something, and we figure it out.

Two things that. That makes me think of. One, there's always a solution. And that's what I found working with you. And in general, even in my marriage, I say in free time, my friend Christine Arilo calls it the sacred third solution. And what I found going through the design process is that maybe V1 was close, but not it. V2 was close, but not it. Then I start getting worried I'm going to be one of your nightmare clients. But then V3 blows us all out of the water. And in a way, it was worth pressing ahead. It was worth. Cause it is like a cold plunge when you first see a design, because there's this very fuzzy vibe happening in the creator's mind or the owner's mind. It's just a fuzzy vibe, and your team is trying to take the first crack. And so it often does look vastly different because I can't convey my imagination. And then the point you said of, you gotta sit with it. And I remember you telling me that more than once. Sit with it. Let it simmer. It is surprising at first. It's almost like if a fashion stylist comes and gives you a new wardrobe, you look at yourself in the mirror, you're like, that's not me. I'm wearing dirty sweats every day. It just doesn't look like you. But that doesn't mean it doesn't look great. It's just that there's this jarring moment of having to sit with and imagine that new thing. And so I think sometimes there is Nuance there of when it's not right yet versus oh, it's just so surprising. I have to sit with it and actually I can cozy up into this. But I think I don't imagine, you know, you've nailed it because at least is my experience as the client. It's like, this is it. Hallelujah. You know, you start hearing angels singing because it really clicks when it works.

Yeah, this happens a lot more in like the blank canvas phase. If a client's in the blank canvas, there are going to be maybe some more iterations because we're taking something that was an idea and making it concrete. And it's not always what you think it's going to be or what it's going to feel like. So it might take a few, a few versions to go through and we bucket that in. I mean, that's why there's a certain price point, because we are creating digital art that is going to be used as a marketing vehicle. Right. And it's your personal ip. So there's a lot of things that we are also trying to check off as we're creating them. And we want them to be artistic and pleasing. And we're checking off all the scientific checkboxes that, like, this is going to be easy to read at this size and that size and the colorways are going to work well together across digital and print. And there's all these other things we have to look at. That's why we bucket in like this. Might take two or three rounds to get there. That's all part of the process.

Even in book cover design. What's strange to think about is that it has to look good as a 1 inch thumbnail. And that's the way the majority of people are going to encounter a book cover for the first time nowadays. It's not going to happen in the bookstore. I, to this day still haven't seen free time in the wild in a bookstore on the shelf, even though we paid to have it in airports and such. So it's like, how do you design a cover that looks great when you hold the physical product and it looks great blown up online? But then most people, I don't even know what percentage, 80, 90% are going to see it for the first time in a search result on an online retailer? And it'll be one inch. Does it translate at that size?

That's still kind of like a new thing. You got to remember, App Store only came out in 2007. It's a new thing that now we have to Think about how this gonna look as a little thumbnail online. How's the spine gonna look if it's sitting within a bookshelf? How's the front of it gonna look if it's being presented in an airport gift shop? There's a lot of things to take into consideration. Budget, as you understand print methods, different legibility and visibility, colors for the type. And people might be like, oh, that's just a book cover. People are now starting to understand, like, oh, this is much harder than I thought it would be.

My budget is just loading. Please wait, beach ball.

I can't create anything new. I found the DOE logo myself. I don't know who designed it. I gotta, like, reach out to them so I can if I try to publish anything. But that was a good find, though.

It was a great find. I love it.

Yeah. It just conveyed how I was feeling. Well, I know. I'm like, all right, jb, don't create anything new for a while. You gotta build up those coffers again. Oh, my goodness. Well, so fun to chat. As always, you get to offer free timers a third permission slip. So, based on this conversation, if you could write fellow business owners or give them permission to do something differently or drop something altogether, what would it be?

You get five minutes to judge the crap out of anything you want and then let it go.

That's hilarious. I love it. No one's given anything like that permission slip before.

I like it. I get to be the grumpy old man. This is the Grumpy Old man podcast version today.

So good. Five minute permission slip to judge for five minutes. Be as critical as possible.

Anything you want. Anything, anything. And then drop the mic and walk away. You're good.

Amazing. All right, Remind people where they can find you if they want to keep in touch.

Yeah, you can find us at GoTogether Agency. All our case studies. There's an intake form. You want to get to know us. If you just want to reach out, everything's right there.

And I'll link to Mari's substack mindbrew in the show notes and the Together Agency substack as well.

Yes. Let's just start it.

Look at me repping you.

Let's go.

Awesome. Thank you so much, Adam. Big thanks, everybody, for listening.

Thank you, Jenny.

If you've listened this far, you get a gold star.

Thank you.

Word of mouth is the most joyful way we can grow this show, and it helps us land interviews with the luminaries and insightful guests that you would most love to hear from. Please send this episode to a friend who might find it helpful, and for show notes and related links from this episode, visit itsfreetime.com while you're there, make sure you're subscribed to the Time well Spent newsletter. You'll get instant access to my Tech Toolkit, a continually updated list of all the software I use, along with the total monthly spend. To run my business where no one works full time, Even me, visit itsfreetime.com join Remember, you are running the show. It's time for radical reimagining and everything is up for grabs. Let it be easy, let it be fun, and build with love.