257: Gentle Business Revolution with Sarah Santacroce

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For show notes from this episode, visit pivotmethod.com podcast if Change is the only constant, then let's get better at it. Here we go.

Hello everybody. I am thrilled to be here today with my friend Sarah Santa Croce. Sarah is an amazing woman and I was honored to be part of her new book and book launch. Her book is called the Gentle Marketing Revolution. Grow your business your way with integrity and kindness. Sarah tapped Penny Pierce and I to co write the forward. So Penny and I decided well to honor Sarah's work. We're going to do this in a fun, delightful, in the moment, flowing way and so you'll read that when you dive into Sarah's work a little bit more about her she has 12 years of running an online LinkedIn consulting business and running that part of her business inspired a yearning for her to create this global movement, getting out of hype marketing and instead encouraging people to bring more empathy and kindness to business, sales and marketing. She calls this the Gentle Business Revolution. And in addition to her recently released book, Sarah hosts a fantastic podcast with the same name to inspire heart centered entrepreneurs to question their assumptions when it comes to marketing and give them permission to market their business their way. When she's not working, she loves adventure, travel, yoga, nature walks and hanging out with her family in Switzerland. Sarah, welcome to the show.

Thanks so much for having me Jenny. Such a blast to be here.

I love your work. As you know, I love your message. It must be one of those meta moments of launching a book called the Gentle Marketing Revolution and trying to think about how do you market and launch a book in that context. So of course you're the expert on that and at the same time it must still activate some of those nerves. So how has it been for you just in the process of writing this book and giving yourself permission to write it in the first place and tell us a little bit about your launch experience.

I guess I start with the epiphany moment where I realized, okay, something's gotta give. I just can't do this whole marketing thing anymore. And so that happened a few years ago when I realized I was ready to not do marketing the way we are all kind of taught to do, or that we think we should do it, because that's what we see out there. The aggressive, manipulative, kind of hypey marketing. That's, you know, you look everywhere. That's what you see. And so as part of this online experience, we feel like, okay, this is just how it works, and I guess we can adapt it a little bit. I always try to be a little bit more empathic and do it my way, but still, I always found myself still using those buzzwords in the headlines or in the subject lines and then going, oh, my God, what am I doing? Why do I have to do these things? And so eventually it was just like, okay, that's. That's enough. I. I need to find a weather way. Really. What. What. What happened is I had this domain name that just kind of came to me, and that was the Gentle Business Revolution. And so immediately I went online. Is it available? Okay. It is. Okay, let's reserve it. And. And then from there came the whole reflection. Well, how can I contribute to a gentle business Revolution? And so the way where I think I had, you know, something to say was this. This idea of gentle marketing. And. And so that's where the book came about. And. And then you and I met, and you helped the structure of the book. And then Covid happened, and it gave me, like, really? This break. Yeah, it was almost like it was meant to be for me. You know, there's a lot of bad things to say about it, but there's also, for me, it really meant, wow, okay. The timing was right, and I was meant to write this book in 2020. In fact, actually, I. Even when people told me in 2019, they're like, Sarah, this. You know, you have a book in you. You should write this book. I'm like, it's just not time yet. Next year, I'll write the book. And so that's what I did this year. And yeah, it feels. It feels great to. To get it out there. And it's kind of like one of these books that, you know, when people say I just had to write it, that's what it felt like for me.

Isn't it amazing how the domain just dropped into your mind?

Yeah.

Talk about intuition. And you get this hit of the specific name and it arrives. You bought the domain name. And then kudos to you. I've been so impressed because like you said, we met pre pandemic and worked together and we joked because I met you and Sarah Young at the same time. So we have the hashtag serendipity, which I'm very proud of. Our little pod. And then the pandemic hit. And to see you persist and persevere and keep going and get this book out amidst all that, even getting sick yourself and recovering is so impressive and I just love seeing how you kept at it. And as well in the book writing process as with marketing anything, it's easy to get overwhelmed and intimidated by what you describe as hype marketing. And there's a lot of this out in the, especially in the business world, which is what you're writing about. Hype marketing, wealth signaling, false urgency, scarcity, as you said, so much of it is fear based and scarcity based that people are in a scarcity or fear based mindset when they even sign up for your things if you're marketing from that place. So I just love that you take a stand in this book and in your work and the manifesto and the mandala of doing things differently. Yeah.

Thank you. Yeah, it's definitely, it's definitely a journey because even now we spoke a bit before recording. Right now I'm, as we're recording this, I'm running a Kickstarter campaign because when I was reflecting on how am I going to do a gentle launch, that feels good. We also have in common, Jenny, that we're both introverts and highly sensitive people. So that doesn't help with the hype marketing stuff. Right. And so I'm like, how am I going to promote a book about gentle marketing without using some of these more traditional approaches to book launches? And you and I have seen many of them and yes, it's just kind of become like the standard thing. You, you have, you know, a standard book launch now. And to me personally, I'm not saying that that's not good for anybody else, but to me that just doesn't feel good. It's not my book. It's, it's not a book that I've written out of, you know, don't want to say ego, but it, it's really a message that I truly care about. And so the book launch is not about me, it's about the mess cause which is to change the current marketing paradigm. So I was really sitting with this, like, I don't want to record a series of videos that tell you why I'm the perfect person to write this book. And now Please go buy 10 copies and then store them in your cupboard. And, you know, not knowing what to do with them. When I was sitting with that, I think it was my husband who kind of mentioned, why don't you do a Kickstarter? And I thought, well, Kickstarter, I thought that was like, for video games and board games. I never heard of anybody launching a book, especially a business book. I've seen kind of like the creative, I don't know, children's books or things like that. But it got me curious. And then I. And I'm looking at one of my paintings where I written down the four main values, and one of them is curiosity. And so this Kickstarter thing got me curious and I was like, well, yeah, let me, let me find out more. And so I really got into it and I found it that I think actually was the perfect platform for the project. Like, it's a creative platform. A lot of people are on there because they truly care about the cause of the product that's being created or they care about the community much more than just making the biggest buck. So that really encouraged me. And so that's what I finally decided, okay, that's my kind of book launch or crowdfunding, if you want. That then leads up to a gentle book launch during, well, next week, which is the Random Acts of Kindness week, an international random act of kindness week.

I love it. It's just beautiful to see how whenever things are not feeling aligned, feel icky and gross, you pause, you reconnect with your values, and you look for what resonates, which is exactly what you teach. And so I love finding Kickstarter and thinking, how can I, you know, for you, how are you applying Kickstarter? I'd be curious to know, for any fellow authors or aspiring authors, how did you set up your tiers for the book launch?

Yeah, so what I set up is I think I have total of five to seven tiers and one is just a book. And then since I spent all of last year 2019 creating a course, an online course with three beta groups for gentle marketing. Some other tiers then include, you know, either the online course or one on one coaching with me. So those are the tiers. And I really. And there I very much, I made the decision to make this a really fun event. It had to be easy and it had to be fun because what I realized after Even Kickstarter. There is some of the hustling going on on Kickstarter. Like every post I read was like, oh, and you know, you got to get an agency and you got to get a PR agency and in a marketing agency and you just got to hustle and, and write to everybody and all of that. And, and then you know, again you feel like, oh my God, that's what I should be doing because that's what everybody else says, that that's how it's done. And so you, oh, you're always in this conflict. Obviously I'm not saying, you know, my book is going to solve all of that. You're still going to have this conflict. But at least you can pause and say, oh, I see what's going on, I see what you are wanting me to do or what you're pushing me towards. And then you make a decision, do I really want to go that way or am I going to say, well that's not my intention. I don't care so much about maximization. Maybe I care much more about the experience and the joy and the fun and the ease that people are experiencing when they're part of this.

Absolutely. I love how you put that maximization versus experience or that you care more about experience over maximizing the most people, the most money, the quickest raised. And again, there it is, the hustle and the hype and the pressure. I wonder if it does connect to being an introvert and or highly sensitive person that the reason so much of that marketing works is just. It's loud, it's loud, it's in your face. It gets repeated over and over and over and it does take courage. As you say in the book. You have a sheep motif running through the book and you say that it does take courage. And I love your honesty even in this moment. Saying your book isn't going to solve everything, like that's very humble of you to say that. Listen, this isn't always going to be easy. You are going to have to constantly stop, reflect and look at what people are suggesting that you do and say, does this resonate? And do I want to go this way? And just refocusing constantly on. And I try to do this too. Let it be easy, let it be fun, creating an experience and as you say in the book, rolling up to bigger values, it's not just about the money and I think that's such a quality of a heart centered or heart based business owner is money isn't everything and just grinding things out or tiring or Scaring your potential audience is not. It's not good in the long run. Like, there's just no way that we want to do any of that.

Yeah.

Even what you said of like hiding 10 books in your cupboard, I think it's so funny because yes, there are many campaigns that say, and if you buy 10 books, you'll get this reward. Now, of course, hopefully that person has 10 great friends that they're excited to gift that book to, but it's not effective if you're just cramming stuff down people's throats.

Yeah. I'm embarrassed to say I have a few stacks of books and I don't feel bad supporting those book launches because they were great books. But again, it kind of shows that there's this standard that a lot of people use without actually thinking maybe am I really serving my ideal clients by selling them 10 books? Let's be honest, Jenny, I just don't have 10 very good friends where I know that they all would enjoy this very book. Right. So I'm still kind of stuck with, I think five at least of them. So, yeah, it's a funny thought that is, especially now.

It's like the logistics of shipping them to everyone.

It just gets complicated.

Absolutely. I have to ask you about the cookie jar study that you mentioned in the book that illustrates scarcity. And I think this is an illustrative concept that I want to get into with you because on the one hand, tactics like scarcity work and on some level, I think sometimes the people who are listening to this podcast and reading your book actually tend to be givers and probably cram too much in. And as you say, we end up forgetting about our own self care, our own boundaries. And so in a way, sometimes I think heart based business owners don't create enough scarcity. It's like, oh, you asked for this, I'll give it, you want to meet, then I'll do it, you know, and that some amount of scarcity, creating real boundaries for ourselves and then communicating that scarcity can be helpful. So I'd love to use this specific. If you could explain the cookie jar study and then how do you navigate applying any amount of a principle like scarcity versus when it's too much over the top and out of integrity in.

Terms of scarcity is. Let me give you an example of what I'm just kind of playing with right now. So I have on this Kickstarter, I have an early bird offer, very common. Right. We use that all the time in our programs, in our emails and so even here now, I'm thinking, okay, is this early bird offer a gentle offer or are, are people going to feel again that there is scarcity involved? Because I'm saying that this early bird offer ends now. So really this idea of using integrity and gentleness in presenting such an offer is so important. It's all, it all comes down to how we present it. Because if we're saying if you're missing out or if you're not buying this, you're going to miss out and you never going to have this chance again and you're going to pay like three times more and you know, really making people feel bad that they're going to miss out. So the, the, the, the focus is really on the scarcity, then yes, people will feel bad and they're going to feel like pushed into buying. Where on the other hand, if you present it in a way that is just very positive and saying, I would love for you to join at this special Kickstarter only offer, you know, I put all my love into these, this gentle business circle, then it becomes a positive experience and people will understand that this was a special early bird offer. Right. So that's where the scarcity comes into play. It's like depending on how, how you present it, you can make people feel really bad, or on the other hand, you actually make them understand, okay, this is special and they have a choice to join or not.

What you're describing also illustrates the scarcity early bird version of I'm going to take something away and you're never going to get it again. My toy versus rewarding and receiving, giving and receiving. So, so I think of early bird offers as rewarding the people that are early and committed and excited. And that's really a gift to the person who is launching whatever it is you're launching, whether it's a conference, an event, a book. Because the early birds help get things going. They start the momentum. They give you the hope that this can work. So it's nice to reward people for that. And I think it works really well when it's, say a conference registration and the earliest birds get the lowest rate. Great. Because that helps the conference organizer keep planning and keep going and do the early spending that they need to do. It's very functional.

Right.

And it's one of those situations, you know, you talk about the triple win, where everybody wins.

Exactly.

Like the organizer wins, the early birds win. And it's so different than the false scarcity and false urgency of this ebook is going to go away forever. And it will never be available again. And that might be true. I mean, maybe truly, that person is about to sunset a certain product, and this is, in fact, the last chance. But people get burned if you say, oh, yeah, and this is just going away for good. And they know. They're like, this is just a digital file sitting in your computer. It's not going anywhere.

Yeah. And again, I think you could probably present it in a way that is still gentle and saying, look, I'm just, you know, cleaning up my thing, and I'm giving them away for, you know, a very low price. But again, it's all how it's presented. Either it comes over as gentle, or it comes over as sleazy and pushy. It's hard. People kind of ask me, well, you know, how do we do it? And it's like, it's all in how it's presented. It really is. And people can, you know, with. With this year that we just went through, people are even more than ever. They. They want the truth. They. They don't want bullshit anymore. They just, like, tell me the truth. And from there, anything goes. I was. I was putting in. In one of the Kickstarter updates, I was celebrating a milestone. I put in kind of a digital badge that says, I'm a gentle marketer. And so one of my friends are like, oh, that's like a sneaky way to have people promote your work. Right. And so I'm like, oh, yeah, I guess you could look at it that way. And so I put that into the email. I'm like, yes, you could look at it that way, but you could also look at it from the perspective of kind of giving. If you put that on your site, giving your site visitors the feeling of safety and saying, hey, I feel safe here. This is a gentle marketer. But I put it out there, right? And people can then and make up their own mind. But at least I'm not trying to play with them and just kind of hide something and, you know, promote my own work while cheating them in some way.

I know what you mean. Right. And so much of this speaks to the intention behind putting something out. So before, and this is on the energetic level, I love how Oprah wrote the 25th anniversary edition to Seed of the Soul by Gary Zhukov. And she said that it was Gary Zhu that inspired her to set an intention for every single interview she did and every single show they did, she had. She and her team said, what is our intention for this episode? And the same thing gets woven into when you're going to create a gentle marketer badge. And your intention, if your intention is, oh yeah, this will get me the most clicks and the best SEO and me, me, me. Well, the intention is baked in to the badge whether people can see it with their eyes or not.

Right.

And in your case, the intention feeling, creating a feeling of safety and community around gentle marketing. I love that. Like, I love that you are thinking about the visitors to a gentle marketer's website feeling calmer and feeling safer once they get there. Like, oh, I can exhale. This person isn't out to get me. They're following gentle marketing principles. And then it also allows people who are part of this revolution to say, hey, I'm doing this and I believe in this and I strive to work in this way and according to the principles and values of gentle marketing. And in doing that, they can inspire other business owners or content creators.

Right?

Yeah, you talk about in, in the book. So there's the four main parts of your framework. Rumble, Rise, resonate and integrate. And I love that rumble. The very first thing you say is, forget your client's avatar. Start with yourself. And you say that starting with your client's avatar. It always made you, Sarah, feel like a Tinder date gone wrong. Like you would, you would imagine your avatar and then you'd show up on these sales calls and just within five minutes have that stomach sinking feeling of, oh, another one. That this is not a fit.

Right.

So talk to us because so much business advice is figure out your ideal client, your client avatar, give them a name, make them real, and then create for that person. And you're saying the opposite. You're saying start with yourself. So can you share a little more about that philosophy?

Yeah. I only wish I knew that I was that smart 12 years ago, you know, because I obviously made all the mistakes and followed all this nice, you know, marketing advice and really did feel like on a Tinder date all these years because I felt like I was showing up with a mask and then basically meeting someone else with a mask. So two masks are meeting and it just never felt real. And one scenario was the person, the ideal client, didn't feel like a good fit, so they didn't want to work with me or I felt like I don't, I can't work with this person. I, you know, he doesn't want what I can offer or we are just not a good fit. So so many years wasted on this. Yeah, on this.

Because I never actually paid attention to what I want. So that's the whole Thing, it's like, don't start with your client. Start with yourself. Look at yourself. Find out who you are. Find out what your values are, your story, your worldview. And then once you know that, then you're ready to go into the client work and look at the, you know, all the things we do, the demographics, psychographics, and all these marketing strategies about knowing your client. But it's a waste if you don't know what you want coming into that relationship.

I think this part takes a lot of courage as well, because in figuring yourself out and who resonates, who sparks joy, who are you? What are your values? Like all these big questions, it can sometimes mean leaving people out or there's. I find there's a real permission. This rumble is about who am I? What resonates, and. And dropping a lot of the shoulds on this part as well. Yeah, it's like owning our quirks, you know, owning.

I love.

I was so touched in the beginning of the book. You said you worried at one point that you were too nice and too gentle for business, that you weren't cut out for it. And I've had those same fears that I'm.

Something as simple as, yet too introverted, like, I'm not good at networking. This is going to hold me back. This is not going to be good for my business. I'm not going to be able to grow or, well, you know, these. These quirks, and then realizing that if we own those quirks and we give ourselves permission to be that way and find another path, even if it's the path less taken to move forward in business and not even hold limiting beliefs around that, like, oh, well, because I'm a gentle marketer, I will earn less. No, I would never say to someone that you need to connect those two things. You say that it might take. You might have a period of transition where you're transitioning from one mode of marketing to the other. But I believe that energetically speaking, if we're more aligned, more good things happen, more serendipity and more resonance with the people like us that also want permission to own the quirks that they have. So I think this rumble takes real courage to admit who we really are.

Yeah, it does. It's huge on my gentle marketing mandala. So I pretty much looked at the seven P's of marketing. So that's a concept that's been out there for a long time. And I looked at the seven P's I'm like, well, the most important thing, the rumbling part, the Personal part is missing. And so I kicked some of the P's out and put in passion and personal power. And so passion could also stand for purpose. I chose passion. So really it's basically Simon Sinek, starting with the why, why are you in business? What matters to you? And then personal power, which is so, so key, like finding out who you are. And it goes beyond that. It goes also into finding your unique marketing superpower. And that sounds a bit cheesy, but it's not because it's really, again, giving yourself permission to do only the marketing stuff, which lights you up. So letting go of all the other shoulds and just doing what you are good at and what you enjoy.

Say more about finding your unique marketing superpower. How does one do that? And how can you give a few examples of gentle marketing superpowers that you've discovered in yourself or with your community?

Yeah, well, I could start with you. I think you have pretty much realized that what you're good at is the podcast and you love it and you enjoy it. And you, you said no to all the social media stuff. You're like, I'm going to focus in on the podcast. And, and then you have your, your community in your newsletter. You do the newsletter. So those are the two things that you focus on. Someone else might be, you know, really good at leading a free Facebook group and then all, all the way do it because you're good at it and you enjoy posting daily and interacting and you know, people, that's great. Other people might be really good on Facebook. Sorry. On YouTube, for example, I had one participant in the gentle marketing program who was, he was Irish. So he had this Irish charm already with the accent. And it was just like, you know, they're really good at presenting. And so we figured out that he enjoys actually being on video and talking and, you know, creating these videos where I know you and I were like, oh, no, let's not do video, right? So it really depends on who you are, what you bring to the table, knowing from your own personal power.

It's so funny that you mentioned video because over the years I've had many people. I did really embarrassing YouTube videos when YouTube was first getting going. This is probably 10 years ago. And people to this day will say, oh, you're so good on video, you should do more on video. And they've even said, why don't you record your podcasts on video? And the truth is, I won't do it. As soon as I add a video component, I'll stop altogether. So it also speaks to that. Just because we're good at something or others might even give feedback. Hey, you're really good at this or this. This really connects for you. Doesn't mean that, like, my energy just isn't there. It means that now, instead of just having this, a deep, intimate, connected conversation, I'm worried about. How's the lighting? How's the camera angle? How's the background? How's my makeup? What am I wearing? How am I looking on the screen? Am I blinking too much, like I can't stand it? So even if I'm good at something like that in quotes, I won't do it. I know myself, I would. I'll get so blocked around something like the podcast. If I were to add a video component, as much as I can see on paper, yes, that would be a good thing. Then I could have these clips that could go on YouTube more than just an audiogram. But if it's going to get in the way of me doing something altogether, that's when I have to say no.

Exactly. When it's not sustainable, then it becomes a drag and you just won't do it anymore.

Yes. I have to ask you. So one of, speaking of kind of owning our peculiarities, our story, something you said in the book is that you, you were hesitant to share this fact about yourself that you grew up on a commune, which I think is so interesting. How did that upbringing, how has that influenced, do you think, your perspective on dental marketing?

Yeah, first of all, yeah, I, like, that was just something that I even like in my first jobs, like, you know, corporate jobs. I never brought that up. That was just like something that belonged to me and my family. And of course, you know, my husband knew, but. But other than that, I just never brought it up. It was just somehow embarrassing in the business world until I had this real breakdown, then breakthrough realizing. But that's me. I feel so.

Like I'm. I never belong because I didn't show up as my whole self. And that growing up is part of me. And the way it has, I think, contributed to me wanting to lead gentle marketing. But not just gentle marketing. I think the gentle part, that's just me personal. That's part of who I am. But what I'm doing now is leading a gentle marketing revolution. And so that's really, I think, where my hippie upbringing kind of comes full circle. And I feel like this is what I'm meant to do. I. I grew up with, like, my parents basically bought an apartment building with five other families and so we each had our own apartment, but we spent a lot of time with all the other families. And we still meet each other once per year at Christmas and, you know, know each up old stories and things like that. And. And so in a community like that, so many decisions have to be taken in common. Like, just think about what comes to mind is the compost, who was taking care of the compost outside, who was cutting the grass, and, you know, all these small decisions that have to be taken in common. That even though I was obviously still a child, but I kept hearing these conversations and then finding compromises and. And all of this led me to, yes, probably a more gentle approach to life. But also this idea of community is super important to me. So that's really where I see myself going with the. With gentle marketing, is leading a community.

And not in a guru kind of way. That's not at all who I want to be in business, but in a circle way. So like a leader in each chair, where everybody has a seat in the circle and everybody shares and brings in their knowledge. And so that's what gets me excited. And that's where I think I'm. I'm kind of coming full circle. And, yeah, the values of fairness are super important to me. That's also why I bring in worldview a lot into marketing. I truly believe that people don't buy our services or products anymore. They buy into something. They buy into our worldview. They buy into who you are, Jenny, and what you stand for. So that's how all of this comes together.

Beautifully said. I love the notion of buying into, not just buying a product, but wanting to know who's behind it, how's the product made, what are their values? And I love your commune story. I love knowing that about you. And then what I find so interesting is this thing that you felt you needed to keep hidden or behind the mask in your earlier days in your career makes you so interesting. And then when I learned that about you reading the book, I thought, aha. So much of this makes sense. Like you described, how you grew up is about community, respect, integrity, cooperation, coordination. There were a lot of values, like you said, to make it work among those five families. And that sense of camaraderie and community absolutely translates into how you do business. And I just. I love your vision of community as each a leader in every seat, coming together in that circle, circular way. It's so beautiful. Sarah, where can people find you if they want to learn more, keep in touch and join this beautiful, gentle community?

Well, we're heading towards a special week for kindness and it's called the Random act of Kindness Week. It's called an international week where just all over the world we celebrate kindness. And I thought that was a good time to gently launch my book. And so that's coming up mid February and I'd love for people to join us there. We'll also do an interview on how you kind of apply kindness in your business. So that's starting on February 15th and it'll be happening on my podcast called the Gentle Business Revolution. And the book is called the Gentle Marketing Revolution. It will be on Amazon, I'm hoping by the end of that week. So around February 20th, 20th and my main website is sarahsonic roche.com amazing.

Thank you so much Sarah. I'll put all of these links in the show notes and if you were listening to this and you felt a sense of relief and exhale, I really encourage you to check out Sarah's work. Let's support her launch as much as we can. And I'm just delighted to be part of Random Acts of Kindness Week. Thank you Sarah for putting that on my radar in the first place. And kudos for bringing this book into the world and launching this revolution in community. I'm just so, so thrilled for you and honored to have you on the show.

Thank you so much. Thanks also for your support and you did play a big role in it, so thank you.

This is my great joy and honor. Thank you. Thank you Sarah. Thanks everybody for listening.

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Remember, build first, then your courage will follow. Hasn't it always.