260: How to Focus on Long-Term Thinking in a Short-Term World with Dorie Clark

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This is your time. How can we earn twice as much in half the time with joy and ease while serving the highest good? That is our guiding question here at the FreeTime Cafe, your home for heart based business. I'm your host Jenny Blake. Join me for conversations with authors, friends and fellow business owners as we explore ways to free your mind, time and team to do your best work. Now onto today's show.

Welcome back Free Timers. You are getting a very special episode from the Vault today with one of my longtime business besties, Dorie Clark. Dori might make the top three for most appearances on the Pivot and Free Time podcast. Dori is one of the smartest, most strategic people I know. This episode is one that we recorded in the summer of 2021 about at that time her new book the Long Game. You're going to love it. We talk about her no asks for a year rule, how she optimizes for interesting, how she says no to even good opportunities, and when to call on trusted advisors to make sure you don't quit something too soon. She's approaching a thousand reviews on Amazon and it's not too late to join us. If you're somebody who likes to make game time last minute decisions. Dorie and I are collaborating for a very special IRL event. A Free Time meets Long Game Hybrid Small group immersion. This is happening in Miami on February 1st and a half day on February 2nd and we are going to get together at Dori's fabulous light felt apartment to help you map your long game strategy. What is most important to you to work on in 2024? How to clear and free the time to do that. Dori and I just had a planning session where we said we need to make sure to share the nitty gritty details, systems, things that really work road tested advice. This is not going to be a workshop of generalizations or platitudes. The people who have already signed up are very sophisticated in their businesses and we would love for you to join us. If it seems like this could be just the thing you need to give your year a kickstart, you can learn more and register@itsfreetime.com Miami that's itsfreetime.com Miami and if you have any questions as you consider this in the days leading up to the event, feel free to also send an email to hitime.com without further ado, I bring you Dori Clark.

Hello my friends. Welcome back to FreeTime. I am so thrilled to be here with the guests that I have probably mentioned most at the start of interviews with other people. Of the thanks I owe for the introductions and the inspiration. My guest today is one of my greatest friends, Dori Clark. She is a superstar. She's written well. We're talking today about her fourth book, the Long Game, how to be a long term thinker in a short term world. She has been named one of the top 50 business thinkers in the world by Thinkers50 and looked absolutely smashing in her suit, by the way. It was a tux. It was like a fabulous velvet. I don't know, you'll have to explain it. Dory. And she's a keynote speaker. She does all kinds of things. She teaches exec ed for Duke University's Fuqua School of Business and she's the author of her previous books. You have probably heard of reinventing you standout and entrepreneurial you Dorie, welcome to the show.

Jenny Blake, I'm so glad to be here with you.

Can you describe that tux for us?

We started with the important stuff. Absolutely.

Yeah.

It was a red velvet tuxedo jacket that I got custom made from a company called Bindle and Keep in Brooklyn.

See, that's how you know that you've arrived is you have a custom bespoke suit that you wear on stage to collect a Thinkers 50 award. You've arrived.

Thank you. I appreciate it. This is the whole premise though of Rent the Runway and things like that. I mean people buy dresses and now they can rent dresses, which makes a lot more sense for like a one time event. So it's my goal to hopefully have so many big nights that I'll just have a massive collection of velvet tuxedo jackets in every color.

I love it. Yes. And each one will represent some badass achievement in your career. Oh my gosh. Well, I'm so excited to talk about this new book. I remember being on a walk and talk with you you when you first told me about it, we were walking Lincoln center area on a cool evening in New York City and you told me this and I just got chills. Like the long game, how to be a long term thinker in a Short term world just so spot on, so necessary with the chaos of social media and everything. And I want to start with a question that I know for sure I'm going to ask you awkwardly.

I really want to hear your take on it. So we know that an infinite game is a game where you just don't care about the results. It's rewarding just to play an infinite game no matter what. But I get the sense that you're someone for whom you have big, audacious goals and that the long game is slightly different than the infinite game, that it's like we actually do have a vision and something we want to accomplish. And I love how you talk about topics like rejection so openly in the book. My question to you is, you know, you've probably heard the phrase we can't all be Michael Jordan when we're pursuing a long game. How do we know when to persevere or when to pivot? How do we know when we need to just stick with it and stay attuned to our highest goal, this long term vision? Or what if we're not all cut out for the long game that we think we want to play?

Yeah, it's an important question. It's kind of the million dollar question. And I have two responses to it. So the first one is a big problem that people often have is that they have not, in formulating the goal properly mapped out what it actually will take to get to the goal. And this leads to a lot of problems because it's hard to run a marathon. Not everybody does it. But if you hear, okay, well, it's 26 miles, do you want to train for it? Are you willing to do it? A certain percentage of people will say, yes, it's worth it to me, I'm going to do it. The problem arises though, because for a lot of the things in our lives that are the metaphorical marathons, it's either not especially clear or people just haven't taken the time to investigate the fact that it's 26 miles and they think it's 13 miles. And then halfway through they're like, wait, I thought I was done. And it's like, nope, actually, you've got another 13 to go. And that's the point where they freak out and quit and give up because they've misjudged it from the beginning. So I think a really important part is scoping it out and understanding what it actually will take to accomplish it so you know what you're committing to. And then at that point, even if it's hard. You have more realistic expectations. The second piece that I think is really important here is we have to recognize that when we are in the thick of something, we are often possessed by a mania. And sometimes the mania goes in one direction where something is really not working. And you just say, no, no, but it's just around the corner. It's going to come, it's going to come. And sometimes it's the other way where things are actually going okay, it's actually proceeding the way it should. It's just maybe slower than you want. But you get discouraged and you say, oh my God, this is terrible. Nothing's ever working. I should give up. This is horrible. And what you really need is to have a trusted group of friends and knowledgeable advisors because you cannot trust yourself in that moment. And you need to outsource the rationality to people that you trust and that you believe in and who have your best interest at heart because they can tell you whether it's worth continuing to pursue it.

Love that. Outsource the rationality. When you're feeling down. Do you have a long game for yourself in your mind? Like have you crystallized if I asked you, Dori, what is your long game?

I 100% have a long game. This is something that for a long time I intuitively did. And I became interested in the process of exploring it and writing a book about it because for the past five years I've run this online course in community called Recognized Expert. And so over the past five years I've worked with more than 600 people who have been through the program. So I've really gotten a good sense over time of what does it actually take to be successful. If you want to get your ideas heard, if you want to build a platform, if you want to be recognized for your expertise, what does it look like? And I've seen the places where people sometimes get stuck or they get frustrated or they might want to give up too soon, and I really want to help prevent that. For me, in my own experience, I've definitely been through that process. But when it comes to the long game, what I actually love about long term plans is that you actually don't need to know how you're going to do it. If you have a 10 year plan, literally it doesn't matter that you don't know because the whole point of 10 years is you will figure it out. All you need to do is just the next thing. If you can at least figure out the next thing. Well, who should I talk to? What book should I read? Whatever. You move the ball forward and in the course of 10 years or whatever it is you, you will figure it out. My long term plan, I would say my 10 year plan, which I'm halfway through. In 2016, I created a 10 year plan for myself that I wanted to write a show that made it to Broadway. So I'm halfway through my goal, getting a show on Broadway for the 2026 season. And then also the 20 year plan that I created is that I would like to somehow do some form of government service. And so my best guess at this point, this could change a little bit. What we're aiming for is directional correctness. But what I provisionally decided on was that my 20 year goal would be to be named a US ambassador to some country.

Okay. What? I never knew that. That is so cool. I just learned something new about you. Wow. Amazing. So with the Broadway Goal listeners, it's been so epic to watch Dori pursue this because she applied for this highly coveted program for writing musicals and didn't get in. Applied again, did this program for two years while running her business, while becoming a Broadway producer, while networking in New York. Like, absolutely just incredible, the steps you're taking. Okay, so the Broadway goal and the ambassador is your long game. Like become an internationally known, recognized expert in, and then those two things fall under it. Maybe you have a few parallel long games in play and you directionally aim at them.

I think that it is useful certainly in terms of how we describe it to others, to have some kind of overarching principle, but as Steve Jobs famously said, you can really only connect the dots looking backwards. So what exactly do Broadway theater and being an ambassador have in common? I don't know, but I'm not too worried about it. One of the chapters I have in.

Common, a velvet bespoke talk story.

Oh, good. Good point, Jenny Blake. That's right. That's right. I feel like America as your chief of staff.

Co Chief of staff.

It's so true. It's so true. If America is ever going to exercise soft power, it's going to be through my soft velvet tux.

Absolutely.

Yeah. I have a whole chapter in the long game talking about a concept that I call optimize for Interesting. And I think oftentimes we put a lot of pressure on ourselves to have all the answers and figure it out. And like, oh, you have to follow your passion. You have to optimize for meaning. Well, that's great. Like if you have a particular passion, if you have a particular meaningful thing, then by all means, do it. But for a lot of people, it's a little hard to figure that out. It's like, who's your soulmate? I don't know. What's your life purpose? I don't know. And so I like to just really lower the par and say, look, optimize for what's interesting to you. If you find something fascinating, if you find it cool, do that and keep doing that. And if at a certain point it becomes not interesting, you can pivot. If it stays interesting, keep doing it. And you will probably find your meaning within that. So what I'm doing in terms of optimizing for interesting, I think it's a fascinating process to learn how to do a creative art, like writing musical theater, to learn a new genre. And so for me, that is a cool process. And then for being an ambassador or whatever form that takes, maybe it's a cabinet secretary, who knows Jenny Blake. But I feel like in some amorphous way, I've always been interested in politics and sort of public service. When I was younger, I thought maybe I'd run for office, but ultimately, I think I'm a little too misanthropic for that. So being appointed to something would be better.

I love it. And the cool thing about how you in particular optimize for interesting. Like, no one has taken more advantage of New York City than you. You always go on these new adventures and try new places, is that it also makes you a more interesting person for relationship building, which is something you're incredible at. One thing I wanted to ask you about there, you have this rule of thumb that you share in the book, no asks for a year. And you might have heard this from someone else, I'm not sure. But this is a very powerful concept. And I remember when I'm a guest lecturer with Alex Rodriguez at Stanford, really I am. And he has this thing of 10 touches. He says, no asks. Don't ask anything of anyone until you've had 10 touches with them, which most likely would take a year if they're.

Not your instant bff, less if you're Andrew Cuomo. Oh, God.

Not that kind of touch.

Exactly. Hands off, Hands off. So tell us about this, and tell us about a time where maybe you didn't follow this and kind of how you came to even this duration of a year.

So this is something that I invented, and I invented the no asks for your concept based on personal experience. There was a woman. This is well over a decade ago now, but there was a woman that I met at a conference and she was sort of this kind of rising star in her field, you could say. And you know, she was being written about a lot at the time and we were about the same age. We ended up having dinner at the conference. And so I got to know her a little bit and we traded a couple of emails afterwards. So I thought, okay, we've got kind of a good burgeoning friendship, as it were. And so in the scheme of things, I would say I did not screw up. I was not a predatory networker. I try to always be careful about that. But I realized post facto that there was sort of an error. It wasn't a massive screw up, but there was an error in how I approached things because we met at the conference, we traded a few emails, you know, so a few months down the line I send her a message because I had seen that she had spoken at this big conference. And so I wrote her a note. I said, hey, congratulations on this. Speaking at that conference is a goal of mine. I'm just wondering, do you have advice about how to break in? And this is seemingly innocuous. I'm asking for advice. I'm not asking for a hookup or whatever, so it's not terrible. But she never wrote back. And I realized, oh, okay, something obviously went wrong here. And what I realized was, oh, okay, we didn't know each other well enough for her to understand my motives. And I could see how it would play out in her head because if she's this kind of prominent person, she's probably getting a million of these emails. Like I'm sending one email, but she's probably getting 20 from all these people saying, oh, hey, I saw you spoke at this conference, can you hook me up? And so she probably thought, oh, well, this is just a two part email. The first part is, hey, can I get some advice? The second email is, oh, thanks for the advice, that's fantastic. I think I'd be great for that. Can you introduce me? And that's what she thought was coming. Now, that's not what was coming. I was not going to do that. But she didn't know it because we didn't have a strong enough relationship. And so I realized that what I needed to do, and I think this is actually a reasonably good policy for almost anyone, is no asks for a year. And we're not talking about like a minor ask like, oh, Jenny, I love that sweater. Where'd you get that sweater? You know? But we're talking about asks that involve political capital because that's where it gets sensitive. That's where people might end up feeling used. And so if you wait for a year to even go there, then it prevents you from constructing an agenda for the relationship, and it prevents them from thinking that there's an agenda. And it enables you to build up the kind of relationship where later on they'll be glad to help you.

I love that specificity about asks that involve political capital. And we could amend this rule of thumb as well to say, invite them to something once or twice in that year, which you do. I see you build so many relationships by extending invitations, and that's not an ask, it's an invitation. That's like an open door and just a way to build the authentic relationship.

Absolutely.

I always feel awkward, even. There's this practice some podcasters do well where they'll interview me, and then at the end, you know how this goes. They go, do you know anyone else I should have on the show. And if you give a name, you know what's next. Would you mind making an intro? Or it's so obvious when they slot you into their CRM and then it's like a month later, hey, Jenny, how are you? Just checking in. It's like, I know I'm in your CRM now, damn it. It's like.

I don't know something about that. I think sometimes people have this thing and I wonder how to get around this. Do you ever feel this where you can just tell you're slotted into someone's CRM where there's a difference between trying to make authentic connections? I err on the side of I just don't contact them at all because I don't want to be inauthentic. Look, hey, just checking in. How's it going? How can I be helpful to you but actually putting enough effort to build something? I don't know. This is like a very rambly sort of thought that just came to me. And you receive so many requests and invites and things, so I'm wondering what works best for you to get you to respond with joy.

Yeah, you raise a really good point, which is, on one hand, it is a good thing, of course, to systematize so you don't forget people or let relationships languish. But on the other hand, if something really is or feels mechanical, it can be counterproductive. Honestly, my favorite way to reach out to folks is. Is rather than maintaining some sort of CRM that says, oh, well, it's Wednesday, so therefore, here's your five people. You need to email or whatever. I actually try to be better than most. I try to be as thoughtful as I can about responding to stimuli in the moment and acting on them. So it actually really is authentic. For a lot of us. People will pop into our head. You watch a movie and you're like oh my God, so and so would love this. Or you are in a different city and you drive past the restaurant that you ate at one time with this person or something like that. And usually we have that thought and we let that thought pass like oh yeah, that's nice. But I try to seize it and use it as an opportunity and I'll say, oh, and I'll send somebody a text or I'll send somebody an email, hey, I just saw this thing, you'd really like it or I wanted to tell you about it or oh, this made me think of you. And when you do that, it is coming from a genuine place and it is one of the ways that you can keep in touch with people more regularly than you might.

We'Ll be right.

Back just after this.

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One related topic to this is saying no to even good opportunities. I've always loved when you write about this in your newsletter. I was so happy to see it make it into the book and I feel like just how you did the networking guide that went with standout. I really truly feel this saying no to good opportunities could be its own companion guide to this book, the Long Game. You give the example in the book of getting invited to Grand Cayman with one of your friends and I think what's very interesting is when you're playing the long game, the more successful you become, the more the sort of exponential increase in invitations. And as you say in the book it's pretty obvious when to say no, or when you're in someone's CRM and you don't really want to reply. But there comes a point, and I'm pretty sure you've reached it, where you have a lot of good invitations and a lot of even really nice people, even nice successful people who want to have coffee with you. How have you refined this skill of saying no to even very good opportunities?

Early on in our careers, we kind of get trained the wrong way, or we don't necessarily get clued into the fact that we have to shift our behaviors. Because early on in our careers, saying yes all the time actually is the correct move, right? Because when you're fresh out of college, nobody knows who you are, nobody is queued up waiting, like, oh, God, I can't wait to talk to this person no one's ever heard of. So when you do get an opportunity, it's great, like, hey, why not? You never know where it might lead. And so saying yes is wonderful because you're expanding your network, you're learning new things, you're meeting new people, but just over time, it becomes unsustainable. Because as you progress in terms of your age and your experience and your public stature, more and more people are going to be reaching out. And if you keep the same behaviors, you're going to end up in a hole. You're going to end up always reacting, never setting a proactive agenda. And eventually you reach the point where just physically, you can't do it anymore. First of all, it's a question of constantly refining your criteria and making it tighter, making it a little bit harder. And that can be frustrating. You want to make people happy. And some people will be a little upset that three years ago you had random coffee with no purpose with me. Why aren't you doing it now? But if your schedule has gotten tighter and you've gotten a little more serious about leveling up on things, you can't afford to just be random anymore. And indeed, some of the offers actually really are super tempting. Like the one that you're referring to where I had a friend invite me on an all expenses paid trip to Grant, came in to speak to her organization and I get to hang out with her on the beach. Like, it sounded really fun, but when I looked at it in the overall context of what I was going to be doing that spring where like, literally I could have fitted in, but the week before I was traveling, the week after I was traveling, like, I just knew it would be punishing in the end. And I thought out of all of this, literally the most meaningful part of it, the part that I was most excited about, was getting to see my friend. And I just thought, you idiot, she lives, like, three miles from you. You could see her this weekend if you wanted to. You can make that happen. You don't have to go to Grand Cayman in order to make that happen. So when I realized that, it became an easy decision, even though on the surface, like, hey, Caribbean vacation sounded pretty good.

You explain really well in the book, too, that you have to look at the true cost of saying yes, that it's not just that it's a fun location and you get to see your friend. There is a total commitment that involves opportunity costs, physical and emotional costs. Yeah, that was really important that you teased that out. And I love your question. Would you feel bad in a year if you didn't do this? Dori, I said no. To travel to another state to do an honorary keynote for a friend in our network. And I to this day, feel that I must have pissed him off by saying no. I genuinely couldn't do it. I just couldn't justify it. At that time, I had a lot going on, and maybe it's just a narrative, but his answer was very curt. And I feel like this person is probably thinking, what, you're too good for this? Or like, I don't know that there's some story that I did not come through. And I still don't regret my decision, but I do feel that it kind of put a ding in the relationship column.

Right. That's interesting. The key parts of this, I mean, so first of all, if we take him out of the equation, his reaction out of the equation, you don't feel bad that you did not literally do this thing, which I think is important. It's important to separate your feelings from how the other person is responding to it. I think the other part of it is, of course, we can't control people's reactions. But the only mitigating factor, my family is Italian American, so we're very big on loyalty. And so for me, the only operative question is, did you owe him? Jenny Blake. Because if somebody's cashing in a chip that they're owed, then I feel like, all right, well, that's important. But if there was no chip on the table that he was playing where he'd done some big favor for you, then I would say it sounds like he's being a dick and you just can't control it.

Yeah, I mean, I don't Think I owed him. Although it's one of these 10 years of knowing people, you exchange things. Podcast interviews, book promo. So I also think even if I did owe someone, I would only want people to return favors to me when it's joyful. I wouldn't want them. So I don't know. But I think with saying no, it's like you win some, you lose some, and you have to have the courage to kind of annoy someone if that's their worldview.

Yeah. I mean, some people honestly can be really irrational about things. I mean, that is true. We really can't control that. We have to feel good about the choices that we're making. Because one of the things that I talk about in the long game is what I call thinking in waves, about just the sort of waves of focus that we need to have and that we need to be shifting between them. And it is true. I mean, life is a marathon. It's also true that there are periods of sprints and we can't get away from the fact that we have to do both. We will not get anywhere in our lives if we don't know how to sprint periodically. But we also will burn ourselves out and be really unsuccessful if we know, never know how to stop sprinting if we can't transition into marathon mode.

That's so true.

One of the biggest things that I see in terms of playing the long game is that where people get frustrated, where they're, like, shaking their fist at the sky is like, but I'm doing the work. I'm doing everything right. But the problem is that they're doing one thing right and they just keep doing that thing. They're doing the thing they like or the thing that they're good at or the thing that is working for them. But in order to be successful long term, you have to learn how to do multiple things and toggle between them. And it's that balance that enables you to be successful in a lasting way with sustainability.

Yes. I'm so glad you brought up the working in waves. And I feel that when I'm immersed in a book, nothing will get in my way. And I feel like I need to give it everything I have. I need to be a hermit. I need to piss people off, say no, be unresponsive, because it's this thing I'm creating that's going to be with me the rest of my life. I kind of have no regrets when I'm working on. I think it's very crucial for the long game to acknowledge those waves of being heads down and honor others when they have those too. So we just have a couple minutes left. I want to ask a few rapid fire questions. First one. Philip and Heath, your boys, your kitties. What do you love most about having your two cats?

Oh, man, like, this is a tough one. It's like, let me count the ways. I mean, do you want me to talk about their cute faces, about their little padded paws? I could keep going. Jenny Blake.

How they hug each other. They, like, cuddle each each other.

They do cuddle each other a lot. There's a lot to say about my little cats. But, you know, as a pet owner, I mean, for people who are really into pets, we say, you know, pet.

Parent, yes, pet guardian, yes.

But a pet aficionado. What I love best, it is sort of about their snuggling. I think it's so beautiful. These are cats that get along so well. I've never seen people get along this well. The way that they relate to each other, just the fact that they love to be around each other, they love to hug each other. To me, it's very inspiring. It's like, wow, I would like a relationship like that. Like, yes, I feel like I can learn from these kitties.

Oh, so sweet, so sweet, so joyful. And it's like such love and entertainment all day, too, with their antics. What is a business book that you've read recently and really enjoyed?

Oh, good question. I actually keep a list, as a matter of fact, because it's so easy to kind of forget sometimes what books you're reading or whatever. Some of the books that I've read recently, I can tell you right now, I'm reading Michael Lewis's book the Premonition, which our friend Alyssa Cohn was like all hopped up about. And that is fantastic. I mean, he is a terrific writer. Of course, in terms of a straight up business book, something that I really enjoyed and had great writing behind it is our friend Ron Friedman's book Decoding Greatness. I think he did a fantastic job with that.

What's a favorite podcast that you listen to these days?

Oh, my goodness. Well, besides yours, Jenny Blake.

Oh, my gosh. Thank you, dc.

I am a big fan always of yours. Thank you. But I really enjoy Russell Brunson's podcast, Marketing Secrets. Russell Brunson, he's a very bro y guy in terms of, like, how he comes across. So I enjoy him for who he is, Although I suspect that sociologically we are extremely different people. But boy, is that guy knowledgeable. I feel like his Insights around marketing are really exemplary.

Yeah. Two more questions. What is the biggest lever that you've implemented in your business to create more free time?

In terms of creating more free time in my business, one thing that is really valuable is of course working with a VA. And I like to work with VAs over long periods of time because then they're able to do more and more. They understand better your circumstances and can really make a lot of independent decisions where they're making the right decision because they understand you and your context. So I've been working with my va, John, who's wonderful for the past two and a half years. Before that I worked with Star for seven or eight years. So I have some long term relationships. But also inspired Jenny by your book Free Time. I actually realized that I needed to systematize things a little bit more because I began to get paranoid after reading your book that I was over reliant on John and I couldn't afford a system breakdown. So we're actually in the process of onboarding a new additional VA just for a few hours a week, but to begin to have somebody who can be a little bit of a backup to help out.

Wow. Some redundancy. That's so inspiring. This is so rewarding to know that you took something away from the book and are actually making a change like that. That warms my heart. D.C. that's so cool.

Oh my gosh. Well, I thought your book was very helpful and very inspiring.

That is the highest compliment. It's like if my friends, the people who know me well, my friend whores like you who I learned so much from. Oh, it's just to me, it is the greatest gift in the world to be able to create some kind of positive change for you in return. And by the way, it is official, in the last week the Amazon page went up for free time. So it's pre orderable. Everybody, you heard it here first.

Oh my gosh. That's awesome. It is highly recommended. This book is so good.

Thank you. Dory blurbed it so she saw an early, rough, rough, rough draft. Okay, final question, which you know well from listening to this show. Thank you. If you could give listeners permission, get to write them a permission slip, what.

Would it be for the permission slip that I would give to people as an introvert, this was a permission slip that I gave to myself and I hope it might help other people as well. But I would call it literally a revelation a few years ago because I was at a networking event, sort of classic networking event where it's like too loud and too many people. And it was something that I really felt like I ought to do. I should do it because it was like a speaker's reception at a conference that I was speaking at the night before. And I showed up because I thought, oh, it's a speaker's reception, it'll be small, I can meet some other interesting people. But I get there and it's at this super loud bar and nobody's wearing name tags, so I didn't know who anybody was. It was improperly segregated, so it was like random bar customers were mixing with the people that I was supposed to meet. I'm like, what is this? It made no sense. And I stayed for a little while and at first I was forcing myself to go up to people and introduce myself. And then finally it was like an angel whispered in my ear, you don't have to do this. And so I thought, wow, I don't have to do this. This sucks. And so I left and I just walked out and I felt so liberated and I vowed, I'm like, I am literally never going to an event like this again. And I haven't. And it's been wonderful.

Okay, good. Anya, what a nice little voice. Just to give you the permission slip in that moment and for listeners too. Thank you so much Dory. It's such a treat to have these conversations. This is our fourth podcast interview and I'm so excited for you listeners. Be sure to check out a copy of Dori's book the Long Game how to Be a Long Term Thinker in a Short Term World and dc. Is there anywhere else you want to send people?

Thank you Jenny Blake this has been wonderful for folks who are interested in the long game and overall the topic of strategic strategic thinking and how to be a more strategic thinker. I do also have a free resource which is the long Game Strategic Thinking Self Assessment and folks can get it for free@doryclark.com TheLongame Amazing.

I'll throw that in the show notes. Dori, thank you so much and congratulations.

Thanks. So good to be here with you.

If you've listened this far, you get a gold star.

Thank you.

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